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(Wired)   DARPA looks to make cyberwarfare routine. Anonymous source suggests that this will not end well   (wired.com ) divider line
    More: Scary, DARPA, visual routine, other nations, Russian Government, collateral damage  
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6688 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Aug 2012 at 1:14 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-22 09:43:13 AM  
I have an idea. let's not put critical infrastructure and security systems on the internet.
 
2012-08-22 09:46:55 AM  
i'm going to eschew the standard issue Skynet jokes and instead substitute a somewhat more obscure Eclipse Phase reference to the TITAN network.

just wait 'till we find the bracewell probe!
 
2012-08-22 10:04:09 AM  
Begun, the cyberwars have.

/Oblig.
 
2012-08-22 01:19:45 PM  

Hobodeluxe: I have an idea. let's not put critical infrastructure and security systems on the internet.


Actually... the DOD doesn't. There are parts of the Military that do send information over the Internet. But it's nothing that would impact the warfighter if it went off line. The armed forces have satellites, they have their own fiber links they even ... hold on, somebody is knocking on the door.
 
2012-08-22 01:20:40 PM  
Can I see this cyberwarfare on the information superhighway?
 
2012-08-22 01:20:59 PM  
Anonymous source suggests that this will not end well

The DARPA chief will suffer a mysterious heart attack then?
 
2012-08-22 01:21:01 PM  
This machine will be used to interface with the cyberwar-lords.

www.cosasdelcibao.net
 
2012-08-22 01:21:28 PM  
a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes
 
2012-08-22 01:21:49 PM  
fark this. I'm going back to MS-DOS...

/or Z-80 machine code, if necessary....
 
2012-08-22 01:23:33 PM  

Weaver95: i'm going to eschew the standard issue Skynet jokes and instead substitute a somewhat more obscure Eclipse Phase reference to the TITAN network.

just wait 'till we find the bracewell probe!


Can't resist a Terminator reference:

I hear Cyberdyne Systems is bidding on that contract. What could go wrong?
 
2012-08-22 01:25:52 PM  
I've heard a couple of these guys speak, they seem like very intelligent guys, they just want "cyber war" to conform to their idea of how war is fought.

They want the fighting to bend to their weapons and tactics (hence the "battlefield view") and it doesn't work that way. Penetration of systems really is 99% perspiration and patience.

"Okay we are mad at the Chinese, let's takedown some systems" isn't done like a missle strike, it could take months for that directive to actually take place as you wait for the right vulnerability to be exposed for exploitation or for the right mistake by those on the other side.
 
2012-08-22 01:26:22 PM  
As some who has done stuff for DARPA waay back in the day, getting a kick... I wouldn't fark with em. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I've watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
 
2012-08-22 01:27:27 PM  

Slartibeerfest: a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes


If past revolutions are any basis to judge the mindless jerks will end up in charge.
 
2012-08-22 01:27:55 PM  

DoBeDoBeDo: "Okay we are mad at the Chinese, let's takedown some systems" isn't done like a missle strike, it could take months for that directive to actually take place as you wait for the right vulnerability to be exposed for exploitation or for the right mistake by those on the other side


Wouldn't you prefer a nice game of chess?
 
2012-08-22 01:29:04 PM  

SkunkWerks: Anonymous source suggests that this will not end well

The DARPA chief will suffer a mysterious heart attack then?


3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-08-22 01:31:07 PM  
unimpressed
1.bp.blogspot.com
also unimpressed
breakfastwithspock.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-08-22 01:32:06 PM  

Hobodeluxe: I have an idea. let's not put critical infrastructure and security systems on the internet.


Buh but, the Cloud!
 
2012-08-22 01:34:50 PM  
www.bfec.us
 
2012-08-22 01:37:16 PM  
3.bp.blogspot.com

Am I winning the cyberwar?
 
2012-08-22 01:39:41 PM  
SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE
 
2012-08-22 01:40:59 PM  
Hey, I know! What if they took like, real Marines and turned them into Innerweb bots?

/that would be cool

//Ground Control to Major Tom
 
2012-08-22 01:45:52 PM  
I had assumed that it already was.
 
2012-08-22 01:49:51 PM  
Well, they've already succeeded in making the slaughter of US troops in Afghanistan routine.

Here's an article about the 2000th US military death in Afghanistan. Today's times has a photo spread with a picture of every military person killed there.

When DARPA creates massed, GPS-limited, small mobile attack platforms, they will have achieved their dream of taking mechanized war to its logical conclusion--a free fire zone patrolled 24 hours a day by efficient little killing machines that wipe out any living thing considered an enemy. Good luck and we're all counting on you DARPA.
 
2012-08-22 01:49:53 PM  
If DARPA is talking about it, it has been underway for a long time now. They invented and used the internet for years before we ever heard anything about it.
 
2012-08-22 01:50:14 PM  

Hobodeluxe: I have an idea. let's not put critical infrastructure and security systems on the internet.


Right. And how exactly am I supposed to use wifi hotspots while I'm vacationing across the Middle East to log in to the NRC network and check on plant operations?
 
2012-08-22 01:51:26 PM  
FYI here is a link to a talk given by Gen. Alexander (the one in the photo) on Cybersecurity.

Link
 
2012-08-22 01:54:41 PM  

DoBeDoBeDo: "Okay we are mad at the Chinese, let's takedown some systems" isn't done like a missle strike, it could take months for that directive to actually take place as you wait for the right vulnerability to be exposed for exploitation or for the right mistake by those on the other side.


Then how would it be very different from the cold war?
Both sides were constantly poking each others defenses for weakness. Some operations took years of involvement to flip agents or plant equipment in sensitive areas. It took alot of forethought and patience to enjoy a moment of schadenfreude.
The only thing that tempered our actions was the continual threat of global war.

Since this Cyber stuff is mostly seen as annoying at its worst, there is no upper limit on what a military might try to get away with.

/Up until Darpa or someone does something truly outrageous.
/Then its back to the traditional use of knives, guns and bombs.
 
2012-08-22 01:58:18 PM  

Boudica's War Tampon: Well, they've already succeeded in making the slaughter of US troops in Afghanistan routine.


Not to downplay the loss of life on either side, but two thousand casualties after ten years of war isn't much to write home about for a military of our size.
In Vietnam we were looking at twenty times as many by now.
In Korea or WW2, this could happen in less than a month.

War has changed.
 
2012-08-22 01:58:42 PM  

Evil Twin Skippy: Actually... the DOD doesn't. There are parts of the Military that do send information over the Internet. But it's nothing that would impact the warfighter if it went off line. The armed forces have satellites, they have their own fiber links they even ... hold on, somebody is knocking on the door.


Yes, the system is designed to be robust enough that you could launch a nuclear attack even if the internet collapsed.
 
2012-08-22 02:12:32 PM  

way south: DoBeDoBeDo: "Okay we are mad at the Chinese, let's takedown some systems" isn't done like a missle strike, it could take months for that directive to actually take place as you wait for the right vulnerability to be exposed for exploitation or for the right mistake by those on the other side.

Then how would it be very different from the cold war?
Both sides were constantly poking each others defenses for weakness. Some operations took years of involvement to flip agents or plant equipment in sensitive areas. It took alot of forethought and patience to enjoy a moment of schadenfreude.
The only thing that tempered our actions was the continual threat of global war.

Since this Cyber stuff is mostly seen as annoying at its worst, there is no upper limit on what a military might try to get away with.

/Up until Darpa or someone does something truly outrageous.
/Then its back to the traditional use of knives, guns and bombs.


Because the cold war was fought more by politicos than by the military?

Sure the military controlled and came up with all the new ways to kill the enemy so that they could stock pile arms etc. But it was mostly the politicians doing the rhetoric and approving the cash. Sure there was spying and the like going on but nothing the likes of taking down power grids. The stealing of data would be akin to cold war espionage but that is about it.

I agree with someone above that the essential systems should not be on the internet, but that requires a public/private partnership that likely won't happen or is little understood by those in charge because they just don't grasp how the "intertubes" and the infrastructure work.
 
2012-08-22 02:33:44 PM  

Bad_Seed: Evil Twin Skippy: Actually... the DOD doesn't. There are parts of the Military that do send information over the Internet. But it's nothing that would impact the warfighter if it went off line. The armed forces have satellites, they have their own fiber links they even ... hold on, somebody is knocking on the door.

Yes, the system is designed to be robust enough that you could launch a nuclear attack even if the internet collapsed.


So you are saying there is a "Fail-Safe" system in place, to prevent mutually-assured destruction?

/hope there's no Doomsday Device
 
2012-08-22 02:34:02 PM  

way south: Boudica's War Tampon: Well, they've already succeeded in making the slaughter of US troops in Afghanistan routine.

Not to downplay the loss of life on either side, but two thousand casualties after ten years of war isn't much to write home about for a military of our size.
In Vietnam we were looking at twenty times as many by now.
In Korea or WW2, this could happen in less than a month.

War has changed.


IIRC, the worst day for American casualties in Viet Nam was about 1600 KIA one day during the Tet Offensive.

According to the Army we lost about 6,000 during the first 24 hours of the Normandy landings in WW2.
 
2012-08-22 02:36:13 PM  

ElLoco: Hobodeluxe: I have an idea. let's not put critical infrastructure and security systems on the internet.

Right. And how exactly am I supposed to use wifi hotspots while I'm vacationing across the Middle East to log in to the NRC network and check on plant operations?


No kidding. And since I can't bill DOD for payments to international carriers, we'd better find free hotspots. I don't want GSA on my back for unauthorized payments.
 
2012-08-22 02:40:00 PM  

StoneColdAtheist: way south: Boudica's War Tampon: Well, they've already succeeded in making the slaughter of US troops in Afghanistan routine.

Not to downplay the loss of life on either side, but two thousand casualties after ten years of war isn't much to write home about for a military of our size.
In Vietnam we were looking at twenty times as many by now.
In Korea or WW2, this could happen in less than a month.

War has changed.

IIRC, the worst day for American casualties in Viet Nam was about 1600 KIA one day during the Tet Offensive.

According to the Army we lost about 6,000 during the first 24 hours of the Normandy landings in WW2.


22+k total casualties in 1 day at Antietam. Fully 1/4 of the guys that showed up to battle were killed/wounded or missing.
 
2012-08-22 02:40:23 PM  

StoneColdAtheist: way south: Boudica's War Tampon: Well, they've already succeeded in making the slaughter of US troops in Afghanistan routine.

Not to downplay the loss of life on either side, but two thousand casualties after ten years of war isn't much to write home about for a military of our size.
In Vietnam we were looking at twenty times as many by now.
In Korea or WW2, this could happen in less than a month.

War has changed.

IIRC, the worst day for American casualties in Viet Nam was about 1600 KIA one day during the Tet Offensive.

According to the Army we lost about 6,000 during the first 24 hours of the Normandy landings in WW2.


I would think the Taliban are fighting pretty much the same way other Afghans fought throughout the eons. Our way of war has changed; theirs not so much.
 
2012-08-22 02:54:54 PM  
daffyduck.jpg

Approves.

(It's so sneaky!)
 
2012-08-22 03:06:44 PM  
Some men just want to watch the world burn.
 
2012-08-22 03:17:02 PM  

Evil Twin Skippy: Actually... the DOD doesn't. There are parts of the Military that do send information over the Internet. But it's nothing that would impact the warfighter if it went off line. The armed forces have satellites, they have their own fiber links they even ... hold on, somebody is knocking on the door.


As someone that has maintained a high side server farm I'm well aware of how many communication problems happen on a nightly basis. The military isn't independent when it comes to running secure lines to remote locations. I've had to call telecom companies occasionally to get specific things reset and it's a pain in the ass when you can't do it yourself via physical or remote access. Then there is this little gem in the security... the NSA will sometimes put out directives to "misplace" media (CD's, thumbdrives, etc) out in the parking lot and around the building. When this media is inserted it will become frozen on a screen telling you who to contact. This is a test for anyone with a clearance, what they don't want people to do is take that media and put it in to their computers to see what is on it. The scary thing is that people actually do and they do it occurs on both the low side and high side computers. If it was done my way I'd immediately have their clearances revoked because they are a huge liability but they just have to take a remedial infosec course...

/all it takes it just one person booting up the wrong piece of media
 
2012-08-22 03:18:27 PM  

Hobodeluxe: I have an idea. let's not put critical infrastructure and security systems on the internet.


Man, if only DARPA could engineer some sort of separate Internet that wasn't connected to the regular Internet, but where's the fun in that?
 
2012-08-22 03:22:24 PM  

jiggitysmith: Hobodeluxe: I have an idea. let's not put critical infrastructure and security systems on the internet.

Man, if only DARPA could engineer some sort of separate Internet that wasn't connected to the regular Internet, but where's the fun in that?


They should call it something cool like SIPRnet
 
2012-08-22 03:28:27 PM  

ceebeecates4: jiggitysmith: Hobodeluxe: I have an idea. let's not put critical infrastructure and security systems on the internet.

Man, if only DARPA could engineer some sort of separate Internet that wasn't connected to the regular Internet, but where's the fun in that?

They should call it something cool like SIPRnet


Maybe even JWICS
 
2012-08-22 03:51:32 PM  
I'm sure Colonel Corto has the scoop.
 
2012-08-22 04:19:29 PM  

Tenatra: Evil Twin Skippy: Actually... the DOD doesn't. There are parts of the Military that do send information over the Internet. But it's nothing that would impact the warfighter if it went off line. The armed forces have satellites, they have their own fiber links they even ... hold on, somebody is knocking on the door.

As someone that has maintained a high side server farm I'm well aware of how many communication problems happen on a nightly basis. The military isn't independent when it comes to running secure lines to remote locations. I've had to call telecom companies occasionally to get specific things reset and it's a pain in the ass when you can't do it yourself via physical or remote access. Then there is this little gem in the security... the NSA will sometimes put out directives to "misplace" media (CD's, thumbdrives, etc) out in the parking lot and around the building. When this media is inserted it will become frozen on a screen telling you who to contact. This is a test for anyone with a clearance, what they don't want people to do is take that media and put it in to their computers to see what is on it. The scary thing is that people actually do and they do it occurs on both the low side and high side computers. If it was done my way I'd immediately have their clearances revoked because they are a huge liability but they just have to take a remedial infosec course...

/all it takes it just one person booting up the wrong piece of media


I do sort of remember a checkbox on our workstation certifications that includes walking through the voodoo to prevent Windows from launching the auto-start mechanism for removable media.
 
2012-08-22 04:23:09 PM  
dtdstudios.com
 
2012-08-22 04:46:08 PM  

ceebeecates4: jiggitysmith: Hobodeluxe: I have an idea. let's not put critical infrastructure and security systems on the internet.

Man, if only DARPA could engineer some sort of separate Internet that wasn't connected to the regular Internet, but where's the fun in that?

They should call it something cool like SIPRnet


Nah, Nippernet sounds better.

Perhaps they should go back to Milnet and Disnet?
 
2012-08-22 04:53:12 PM  
When can I have my datajack installed?
 
2012-08-22 05:45:09 PM  
/Alex Jones on

They've seen how the Arab Spring used social networking to help keep organized and gain support. This is just a disguise for the attacks on the freedom of internet use our government will enact when Obama hands over sovereignty to the UN. Make sure you update your firewall and AV before Obama takes away your internet.

/Alex Jones off
 
2012-08-22 05:52:13 PM  

fireclown: I had assumed that it already was.


Since flame, stuxnet and duku I thought it was common knowledge.
 
2012-08-22 06:08:04 PM  
Taking stuff off the internet is well and good, but it isn't a foolproof solution.

Computer Virus Hits U.S. Drone Fleet
 
2012-08-22 07:19:24 PM  

Evil Twin Skippy: I do sort of remember a checkbox on our workstation certifications that includes walking through the voodoo to prevent Windows from launching the auto-start mechanism for removable media.


There are all sorts of strict rules in place but due to carelessness things like this go unchecked on both ends. Things stay that way unless someone gets busted because everyone expects everyone to follow all of the rules all of the time... only in a perfect world. Media from home, cell phones, etc gets accidentally brought in to the SCIF frequently. It's another thing altogether that these people brought foreign media knowingly in to the SCIF to check it on their work computers... That's what Information Assurance is supposed to be for, they have a sandboxed PC to check things like this.
 
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