spacelord321: There are many "alternative" medicines out there that will become medicines in the future once further study has been applied.

So until then, how does one tell the difference between what will become a future medicine (fully qualified with years of research, animal toxicity testing, clinical trials, safety trials, dose-response relationships, and more), and what will be discarded because the dose-response curve was flat or it was too toxic or otherwise failed testing?

Should we just guess? Should we do uncontrolled testing on the populace and have them report back anecdotes? What can we do to tell the difference?

mgshamster: Mr Guy: jvl: Elfich: An actual scientist would state that we do not have a test for "chi" so we can't determine what someone's chi level's are. Once we can test for that we can determine if it has an actual effect on someone's health.

Incorrect. It is sufficient to observe that a "Master" is no more effective than some guy randomly poking about to conclude that the "Master" has no correct knowledge about how some Woo force works.

Which only disproves that chi is something that person knows how to control. It does not preclude the existence of chi, which sounds an AWFUL lot like the idea that the body actually runs on minute chemically produced electricity, and that by correctly stimulating the right muscles, (ie, fixing your posture and weakness problems through exercise), you can achieve a greater over all health, even if you can't point to anything being obviously directly wrong with you in the first place.

That's more or less right, just voodoofied.

Unfortunately, none of the acupuncture literature backs your statements. Acupuncture chi lines do not follow nerves (where the electricity is flowing), and sham treatments of acupuncture have been shown to work better than real acupuncture treatments.

Think you may be taking what I said too literally. Chi lines very roughly show you were your core muscles are, and which areas you can mentally focus on for ideal posture. It's not how the nerves actually run, but it's pretty close to a representation of how the force is distributed across your body in an engineering sense. Being aware of that just allows you to strengthen your entire body in proportion, which DOES have health benefits.

Kind of like how when yoga mysticism says, "feel the breath flowing through your body", they are talking about engaging the core muscles to elongate your lungs and brace your hips with your front and back at the same time, in order to isolate the movements of extremities from the main body mass and target different supportive muscles. But "feel the energy" sounds more accepting and less like you can do it wrong, so people prefer it.

spacelord321: There are many "alternative" medicines out there that will become medicines in the future once further study has been applied.

Sure. And there's plenty that will stay quackery. And the ones that become medicine will go from "Well, this dosage might help you, or it could hurt you" to having some standard dosages with known and predictable effects.

So what's the score? Medicine: reasonably predictable outcomes for most things.
Alternative Medicine: could kill you, could heal you, might do nothing but make you look like a crazy hippie to your neighbor.

Why exactly should anyone choose the second?

mgshamster: spacelord321: There are many "alternative" medicines out there that will become medicines in the future once further study has been applied.

So until then, how does one tell the difference between what will become a future medicine (fully qualified with years of research, animal toxicity testing, clinical trials, safety trials, dose-response relationships, and more), and what will be discarded because the dose-response curve was flat or it was too toxic or otherwise failed testing?

Should we just guess? Should we do uncontrolled testing on the populace and have them report back anecdotes? What can we do to tell the difference?

The usual answer is that everything that works, works for a reason. If your reason for why you theorize it SHOULD work doesn't hold any water, then your treatment isn't likely to be substantially better than placebo.

Mr Guy: Chi lines very roughly show you were your core muscles are, and which areas you can mentally focus on for ideal posture. It's not how the nerves actually run, but it's pretty close to a representation of how the force is distributed across your body in an engineering sense. Being aware of that just allows you to strengthen your entire body in proportion, which DOES have health benefits.

Kind of like how when yoga mysticism says, "feel the breath flowing through your body", they are talking about engaging the core muscles to elongate your lungs and brace your hips with your front and back at the same time, in order to isolate the movements of extremities from the main body mass and target different supportive muscles. But "feel the energy" sounds more accepting and less like you can do it wrong, so people prefer it.

So... you're saying that Chi doesn't exist, and that exercise can help keep you healthy. I can dig it.

hstein3: Elfich: hstein3: Elfich: bhcompy: EdNortonsTwin: Vitamin E topically and Vitamin A internally cleared up my adult acne. Just sayin.

The super high dosage of vitamin A that my friend took to treat his awful acne gave him Crohn's. Nice stuff.

I call BS on that one. Unless Vitamin A can suddenly make your entire immune system misbehave to the point where it treats your colon as a foreign body that needs to be destroyed.

Funny story. See, retinoic acid (a metabolite of vitamin A) is an important signaling molecule in the intestines for training your immune system to distinguish between self and non-self, commensal and pathogenic bacteria. Too much vitamin A can definitely screw up that balance, since it's mainly in the intestines where that balance is important.

Wonderful, just what I wanted to hear. But since I am living with this now, I don't think there is much I can do about it. Unless someone has come up with a scientifically researched treatment that is better than what I am on.

How do you feel about parasites?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy

I am very interested. I like the idea of getting the immune system to do the work it was supposed to do instead of chewing onthe carpets.

The results on the study I am following have not been published yet so I don't know how it will fall. With my luck I would have to wait to see how it interacts with other drugs I am already on.

She has had the most success with sound therapy, which is said to heal the physical, mental, emotional and etheric aspects of a person and lead to a state of harmony through the use of sound frequencies."

Dammit, frequencies are not a thing, frequencies are a property of a thing. If I pelt you with baseballs, I'm not hitting you with rounds. This tells me you don't know what the fark you're talking about, lady. Pop quiz: how is frequency related to wavelength? If that's too hard, I'll settle for you being able to define both of those terms and explaining to me what a Hertz is.

Bondith: She has had the most success with sound therapy, which is said to heal the physical, mental, emotional and etheric aspects of a person and lead to a state of harmony through the use of sound frequencies."

Dammit, frequencies are not a thing, frequencies are a property of a thing. If I pelt you with baseballs, I'm not hitting you with rounds. This tells me you don't know what the fark you're talking about, lady. Pop quiz: how is frequency related to wavelength? If that's too hard, I'll settle for you being able to define both of those terms and explaining to me what a Hertz is.

Hertz is a ketchup brand, which has nothing to do with acoustics, so you shouldn't be changing the subject.

Elfich: hstein3: Elfich: hstein3: Elfich: bhcompy: EdNortonsTwin: Vitamin E topically and Vitamin A internally cleared up my adult acne. Just sayin.

The super high dosage of vitamin A that my friend took to treat his awful acne gave him Crohn's. Nice stuff.

I call BS on that one. Unless Vitamin A can suddenly make your entire immune system misbehave to the point where it treats your colon as a foreign body that needs to be destroyed.

Funny story. See, retinoic acid (a metabolite of vitamin A) is an important signaling molecule in the intestines for training your immune system to distinguish between self and non-self, commensal and pathogenic bacteria. Too much vitamin A can definitely screw up that balance, since it's mainly in the intestines where that balance is important.

Wonderful, just what I wanted to hear. But since I am living with this now, I don't think there is much I can do about it. Unless someone has come up with a scientifically researched treatment that is better than what I am on.

How do you feel about parasites?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy

I am very interested. I like the idea of getting the immune system to do the work it was supposed to do instead of chewing onthe carpets.

The results on the study I am following have not been published yet so I don't know how it will fall. With my luck I would have to wait to see how it interacts with other drugs I am already on.

Hm, Crohn's isn't really my area of expertise (it's been a few years since I've had to be up to date on the subject), but I know enough about inflammatory diseases to guess. Depending on how bad your Crohn's is, I'd guess you're on Anakinra or some other cytokine inhibitor, like a TNFa mab. I think they're trying IL-17 blockers as well, although that might just be for psoriasis. If not that, then probably some sort of steroid.

In any case, because helminth therapy is still in trial stages, it would likely be exclusive or paired with something already determined not to interfere with the process. Combining immune-modulating drugs can get dicey if you're not careful.

In any case, your doctor would be the one to point you to therapies or trials that might help you out. Good luck finding something that works for you, though.

Elfich: JWideman: foxyshadis: heyheyjerky: Do people forget that China had medicine and a thriving culture thousand of years before modern western medicine. Anyways, color therapy sounds kinda bogus but herbs and acupuncture and acupressure do work.

Acupressure/puncture relieves stress and sometimes pain, it does NOT fix any underlying conditions that cause chronic pain. In other words, it's basically a much more expensive alternative to tylenol, aspirin, or vicoden. Chiropracty can fix the single underlying problem of bone alignment causing muscle spasms, and massage can fix a number of muscular and sometimes a few skeletal problems. That doesn't make them alternatives to anything if you're actually, you know, sick.

That said, I'd definitely get acupuncture by someone who trained for a few years under an acknowledged master. Problem is, all of the acupuncture studios, salons, and hospitals around here give it to you by someone who trained for 2-3 weeks in a classroom, and the injury rate is as high as you'd expect.

You can stick needles in yourself in random places and get the same results as from an "acknowledged master". It turns out that there's no such thing as chi, but there are such things as endorphins.

An actual scientist would state that we do not have a test for "chi" so we can't determine what someone's chi level's are. Once we can test for that we can determine if it has an actual effect on someone's health.

Well, you can do a double-blind test by simulating needles or, more practically, sticking them in the wrong places as your control. But it's difficult to establish that as truly double-blind, since the person placing needles either knows they're "wrong" or knows nothing about acupuncture and is only being handed target points on randomly drawn cards. If you were Amazing Randii, you'd train a guy to study an "acknowledged master" for his shtick, his way of dressing, his way of speaking, the overall presentation, and see if you can get better patient-reported results than an acclaimed "master" from "the industry" you bring in for the other half of the sample group. That's somewhat deficient on scientific method, though.

Still, at that, acupuncture pretty much shows up as bunk.

Vegan Meat Popsicle: jimmythefly: "alternative" medicine is a catch-all phrase for a whole spectrum of stuff. From what I'd call "woo-woo" to fully evidence and scientific trial-based use of certain herbs. Hell, there's all kinds of stuff that started as herbal medicine, and once the chemicals were isolated moved toward more conventional marketing and sale. Digitalis, for example.

You know what you call alternative medicine that's been rigorously tested, run through the scientific process, and adapted for use to treat a specific ailment?

Medicine.

There's no such thing as alternative medicine. It's either medicine, something that could potentially become medicine, or bullshiat. Most of the time it's bullshiat.

"Alternative medicine" is things which are not proven to work, or more often, proven NOT to work.
What do they call things which ARE proven to work? MEDICINE.

A friend's idiot father sunk a lot of his savings into the magnet con so he could unwittingly con others. He quickly found out that it is as effective as tea leaves, reflexology, tarot, acupuncture, and homoeopathy.

I May Be Crazy But...: Mr Guy: Chi lines very roughly show you were your core muscles are, and which areas you can mentally focus on for ideal posture. It's not how the nerves actually run, but it's pretty close to a representation of how the force is distributed across your body in an engineering sense. Being aware of that just allows you to strengthen your entire body in proportion, which DOES have health benefits.

Kind of like how when yoga mysticism says, "feel the breath flowing through your body", they are talking about engaging the core muscles to elongate your lungs and brace your hips with your front and back at the same time, in order to isolate the movements of extremities from the main body mass and target different supportive muscles. But "feel the energy" sounds more accepting and less like you can do it wrong, so people prefer it.

So... you're saying that Chi doesn't exist, and that exercise can help keep you healthy. I can dig it.

And I have absolutely no doubt that the idea of focusing along those lines while exercising WILL help you keep the right body positions for maximum benefit. My hunch is the flim flam talk is just a way for them to try and explain why it works, and somehow the flim flam talk survived the actual explanation. There's plenty of supporting evidence for the value of visualization exercises when doing muscle development.

hstein3: Elfich: hstein3: Elfich: hstein3: Elfich: bhcompy: EdNortonsTwin:
Hm, Crohn's isn't really my area of expertise (it's been a few years since I've had to be up to date on the subject), but I know enough about inflammatory diseases to guess. Depending on how bad your Crohn's is, I'd guess you're on Anakinra or some other cytokine inhibitor, like a TNFa mab. I think they're trying IL-17 blockers as well, although that might just be for psoriasis. If not that, then probably some sort of steroid.

In any case, because helminth therapy is still in trial stages, it would likely be exclusive or paired with something already determined not to interfere with the process. Combining immune-modulating drugs can get dicey if you're not careful.

In any case, your doctor would be the one to point you to therapies or trials that might help you out. Good luck finding something that works for you, though.

I'm on two immuno-modulators: 6MP and Remicade (they brought out the big guns). 6MP and Remicade was approved for simultaneous usage in the last couple of years. It improves remission rate from 45% (for either drug) to 65% (both drugs combined) - (Percentages are from memory). Needless to say my blood levels are being monitored every 8-12 weeks have immunization against Hep B/C and get TB tested this way from Sunday. In the long run if the lovely little worms can replace one of those drugs and maintain my remission level I would be a happy camper.

jimmythefly: RE: "alternative" vs. "medicine"

I have two objections to what you're saying here.

The first is more of an addendum to your cautions than an argument. If someone is going to a chiropractor for their debilitating allergies or just getting hot spring baths to cure their cancer, then they are being hurt by not getting a treatment that will help them. (I've heard ads for both those examples and had a family member die of treatable cancer because of the second, so they aren't just made up)

The second is that herbs and whatnot aren't necessarily safe simply by virtue of having been used for many years. Often they can interact with modern medication in unexpected ways just like two modern medicines, except that your doctor doesn't know what teas you're drinking and your alternative doctor (for lack of something else to call 'em) doesn't know about the medications. In addition, without more studies there's an issue of getting dosages wrong simply by not knowing how strong the plant your have in your hand is. And, for that matter, I've seen stories of shops selling cheaper herbs in the place of more expensive ones.

Vegan Meat Popsicle: spacelord321: There are many "alternative" medicines out there that will become medicines in the future once further study has been applied.

That doesn't mean anything. It's just gutless weasel words so you can just come back later and claim every single new thing was "alternative medicine" at one time. Grow a pair and stake a real claim that you can be held to.

Alternative medicine means a non-medicine alternative to real medicine. I know this surprises some people, but words mean things, and those words mean "not medicine".

Alternative medicine is bullshiat. Future medicine is a hypothesis. Only medicine is medicine.

I don't adhere to anything except the laws of physics. Our understanding of physics is far from complete, if there is completion for such a thing.

How about the article on fark the other day about the bacteria within the body and the importance they play? Couldn't a diet of certain viamins alter that balance and thereby alter the health of people? If we want to go even further down the rabbit hole, could magnetic fields also interact with those same bacteria? Of course these things are not proven by science, but that doesn't mean there is not a scientific explanation waiting to be discovered.

Quit preaching semantics. I understand english fine. "Alternative" in this case just means beyond the mainstream. Unfortunately, some people lump everything outside of their textbooks into one large catagory.

For the record, I love me some mainstream antibiotics, painkillers, surgeries, etc. I just feel that our understanding of human anatomy is far from complete, and realize those answers may already be floating around out there somewhere.

At work, but will go further later if prompted

jimmythefly: There are a bunch of intertwined issues with what constitutes "real medicine" and what is "alternative". I actually agree with people saying "once it is shown to work, it will be called simply medicine". I know quite a few people who call things medicine that don't have to come from a small white bottle and available only with a prescription.

The most basic definition of medicine is "The science or practice of the diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease." Drugs and pharmaceuticals are used as a part of medicine, but they are not the entirety of medicine - they are only a portion of it (they're also the most well known portion).

jimmythefly: Alternative medicine, as I said, has become a catch-all phrase for anything and everything else. There are Naturopathic Doctors (ND) who work in integrated clinics right alongside MDs, masseuses, Chiropractors, midwives, Nurse Practitioners, etc. It is extremely legitimate.

NDs are quacks and will remain quacks until they - as a discipline - denounce homeopathy, energy healing, detox schemes (I'm not talking about addiction detox, I'm talking about "removing toxins from your body" detox), the idea of a "vital force," etc...

They will remain quacks until they stop using legislation to force their practices on the public. When they stop using SLAPP suits against people who criticize them. When they start producing legitimate research in an honest attempt to discover how things work, rather than just trying to prove their favorite technique works (which they often do by using poor controls, weak analysis, and flat out lying - I once saw a report on acupuncture that failed to produce results better than the placebo, and you know what the authors concluded? Not only does acupuncture work, but it works so well that the placebo works, too!)

jimmythefly: Yes, there are more "out there" things that are also called "alternative". But don't turn a blind eye to something just because of some stupid label someone else gave it.

Professionals don't dismiss alt med simply because it's called "alternative." We actually look at the research presented and judge it on that. When treatments work by violating the basic laws of physics and chemistry - then they don't work. A perfect example is homeopathy (a treatment which naturapaths endorse).

Conversely, professionals care about labels because the misuse of them can confuse the layperson. Exercise is an important part of a healthy lifestyle, and physicians use exercise to help patient prevent certain diseases or to recover from injuries. Yet alt med groups consistently claim exercise as their own while stating that "western medicine" is bad for you. I've seen some specifically claim that medical physicians know nothing about exercise or nutrition, and that's why you should avoid going to the doctor. It's a flat out lie use to lure customers in so they can then sell their unregulated vitamins, homeopathic treatments, detox schemes, and more.

jimmythefly: By and large, vitamins, herbs, acupuncture, chiropracters, etc. are not going to harm you unless you intentionally abuse them.

Vitamins can be good for you, but most Americans have no need for them, as a decent diet will provide all the vitamins you require. If you need a supplement, it should be for a medical purpose only, not because you think you're deficient. Even still, vitamin and supplement manufacturers are horrible! A recent report came out on it:

"So far this year [2012], FDA inspectors have found violations of good manufacturing practices during two-thirds of the 204 inspections they have conducted in nearly 200 supplement firms' facilities, agency officials said. Seventy of these inspections resulted in the agency's most serious rating.

Some firms don't even have recipes, known as master manufacturing records, for their products.

Others make their supplements in unsanitary factories. New Jersey-based Quality Formulation Laboratories produced protein powder mixes and other supplements in a facility infested with rodents, rodent feces and urine, according to government records. FDA inspectors found a rodent apparently cut in half next to a scoop, according to a 2008 inspection report." Link

Other times, you have alt med practitioners claiming that high vitamin doses are actually good for you! That's insane! People like Gary Null make a living off these lies.

Acupuncture has no known effect beyond a placebo effect, and there's the risk of injecting a needle too far and doing some serious harm. I've seen cases where lungs have been punctured and other cases where the patients have gained serious bacterial infections from dirty needles. Chiropractic can be good so long as they avoid the idea of sublaxations (which is what makes them quacks), but that can be hard to do, seeing that it's a core principle in their discipline. I've also seen cases of people getting strokes induced by chiropractic techniques on the neck. While this is very rare, I have yet to hear of a chiropractor that warns patients of this event, while I see medical professionals tell their patients of problems that can occur - even rare ones.

jimmythefly: 3. Much of the "alternative" medicine actually IS tested. It may not have been tested for effectiveness, but it is tested for possible harmful effects. Remember we are NOT talking about something cooked up in a lab that we have no idea bout or background info on. Much of it is things like herbs that have been in use by cultures for hundreds of years, it's pretty much been shown to do no harm. Or on the flip side, plants that have been around of thousands of years that humans have always avoided.

Effectiveness is one of the most important ideas of medical treatments. If something is not effective, then it is worthless! Second to that (barely) is safety; the reason safety is second is because there a little thing we like to use called a "risk-benefit analysis." Basically, we determine whether the risk of the treatment worth the benefit of getting it. If a treatment has no efficacy, then the benefit side is zero; no matter how safe it is, the risk will never be worth the benefit. There is no benefit! And remember: all treatments have some risk.

Mr Guy: Think you may be taking what I said too literally.

Quite possible.

Mr Guy:Chi lines very roughly show you were your core muscles are, and which areas you can mentally focus on for ideal posture. It's not how the nerves actually run, but it's pretty close to a representation of how the force is distributed across your body in an engineering sense. Being aware of that just allows you to strengthen your entire body in proportion, which DOES have health benefits.

Kind of like how when yoga mysticism says, "feel the breath flowing through your body", they are talking about engaging the core muscles to elongate your lungs and brace your hips with your front and back at the same time, in order to isolate the movements of extremities from the main body mass and target different supportive muscles. But "feel the energy" sounds more accepting and less like you can do it wrong, so people prefer it.

If I understand you right, you're claiming that some people use these to help their students or other practitioners visualize which muscles to flex or stretch during exercise. I concur that this can be a good thing, but one must be careful not to take it too far (like you said, I think).

When one says to "feel the energy flow through you" as a means of proper breathing during yoga, I'm perfectly ok with that. When one says to "feel the energy flow through you" as a means to cure your cancer through therapeutic touch or reiki, then we're getting into the quack world where patients are being scammed.

Elfich:

I'm on two immuno-modulators: 6MP and Remicade (they brought out the big guns). 6MP and Remicade was approved for simultaneous usage in the last couple of years. It improves remission rate from 45% (for either drug) to 65% (both drugs combined) - (Percentages are from memory). Needless to say my blood levels are being monitored every 8-12 weeks have immunization against Hep B/C and get TB tested this way from Sunday. In the long run if the lovely little worms can replace one of those drugs and maintain my remission level I would be a happy camper.

Sounds about right. Hope your side effects aren't too severe.

If you're really interested in trying out helminth therapy, I can tell you a few different things. While your doctor should always help you make decisions, you can watch for open clinical trials through clinicaltrials.gov. If you'd like to look into the scientific literature, PubMed is your best resource, assuming you have the patience to read that sort of thing.

All that said, I'm given to understand that helminth therapy is more readily available in China, although that information is about 4 years old. Caveat emptor etc.

spacelord321: I don't adhere to anything except the laws of physics.
spacelord321: Quit preaching semantics.

Right...

spacelord321: I just feel that our understanding of human anatomy is far from complete, and realize those answers may already be floating around out there somewhere.

That doesn't mean that hucksters should be selling snake oil alongside actual medicine. "It might work" doesn't make it medicine. Putting your face in the toilet and flushing it repeatedly "might work" on a brain tumor, but you'd still be an idiot to do it.

There is a massive difference between something that medical science has found to be "promising" that might turn into actual medicine and those bullshiat cold pills they sell next to the Nyquil. The former is a hypothesis, the latter is alternative medicine.

I.e. Bullshiat.

hstein3: Elfich:

I'm on two immuno-modulators: 6MP and Remicade (they brought out the big guns). 6MP and Remicade was approved for simultaneous usage in the last couple of years. It improves remission rate from 45% (for either drug) to 65% (both drugs combined) - (Percentages are from memory). Needless to say my blood levels are being monitored every 8-12 weeks have immunization against Hep B/C and get TB tested this way from Sunday. In the long run if the lovely little worms can replace one of those drugs and maintain my remission level I would be a happy camper.

Sounds about right. Hope your side effects aren't too severe.

If you're really interested in trying out helminth therapy, I can tell you a few different things. While your doctor should always help you make decisions, you can watch for open clinical trials through clinicaltrials.gov. If you'd like to look into the scientific literature, PubMed is your best resource, assuming you have the patience to read that sort of thing.

All that said, I'm given to understand that helminth therapy is more readily available in China, although that information is about 4 years old. Caveat emptor etc.

cool thanks!

Vegan Meat Popsicle: spacelord321: I don't adhere to anything except the laws of physics.
spacelord321: Quit preaching semantics.

Right...

spacelord321: I just feel that our understanding of human anatomy is far from complete, and realize those answers may already be floating around out there somewhere.

That doesn't mean that hucksters should be selling snake oil alongside actual medicine. "It might work" doesn't make it medicine. Putting your face in the toilet and flushing it repeatedly "might work" on a brain tumor, but you'd still be an idiot to do it.

There is a massive difference between something that medical science has found to be "promising" that might turn into actual medicine and those bullshiat cold pills they sell next to the Nyquil. The former is a hypothesis, the latter is alternative medicine.

I.e. Bullshiat.

So your problem is with product placement? Ok. I'm alright with that and would agree it can be misleading. That's why it says that little"not approved by FDA" thing. Just because you disagree does not mean I want to take away their right to sell such products.

There are plenty of hucksters out there. Plenty of well intentioned ones to boot. It's up to the consumer to make that choice. Not you.

spacelord321
There are plenty of hucksters out there. Plenty of well intentioned ones to boot. It's up to the consumer to make that choice. Not you.

Well, no, actually. Intentionally selling a product you know is horseshiat is called fraud. That's illegal. Even if you think your product will cure everything from hiccups to cancer, if it doesn't do that, you're still selling it under fraudulent pretenses. This is why consumer protection laws exist: to stop the buy from getting ripped off by false packaging. In order to make an informed decision, you need accurate information. If the seller is allowed to lie his ass off, the consumer will never be able to make an informed choice.

Treygreen13: Tuning forks can be used to detect fractures in bones.

Yep, as well as for diagnosing neurological issues (either through testing hearing or testing vibratory sense).

I May Be Crazy But...: Hertz is a ketchup brand

No it isn't.

Lachwen: I May Be Crazy But...: Hertz is a ketchup brand

No it isn't.

...that was supposed to say that'sthejoke.jpg

Um... this looks remarkably close to the title of the headline I used on the Doubtful News a day before this post was listed.

Warning: Gems and vitamins are not viable health treatments. Stop claiming it is.

spacelord321: There are plenty of hucksters out there. Plenty of well intentioned ones to boot. It's up to the consumer to make that choice. Not you.

The problem with this line of thinking is the difficulty in telling which product is real and which isn't. If I'm purchasing a car, it's pretty easy to tell when I'm getting a decent car and when I'm not. There are tons of experts around that I can take it to and get it evaluated, or I could fairly easily learn many of the basics myself if I wanted to - not in great detail, mind you, but enough to tell the difference between a decent car and a clunker.

The same is not true of supplements, medical treatments, and drugs. It can takes years of dedicated study to understand the basics of biology, chemistry, and physics (all of which are necessary to even begin to understand the difference outside of a layman's level). If you have two bottles of similar drugs - let's say one is prescription and another over-the-counter - a layman will never be able to tell the difference unless there are laws in place to state on the bottle what each contains. To determine the difference, it will take equipment which can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars (or more, depending on the molecular difference - I've seen some machines that cost in the millions, specifically ICP/MS) - and it takes years of training in chemistry to learn how to properly operate these machines. The average person doesn't have the knowledge to operate these machines, much less even have access to them.

Homeopathy is a vastly popular medical treatment - even though it does nothing (it's entirely a placebo effect). I've seen some homeopathy products that do have some effect, but those were due to the "inactive ingredients" listen on the container. The company was flat out lying. How does one know the company is lying? One must have knowledge of basic physics and chemistry - and then one has to understand the theory behind homeopathy to know that it violates simple universal laws. How would the average person know the difference? Caveat emptor? You're asking for a potentially deadly scenario.

It is NOT easy to tell the difference between quack medicine and real medicine, which is why the industry must be heavily regulated - to protect the buyer. When the buyer has no way to tell the difference between real and fake, then "buyer beware" is a recipe for failure.

mgshamster: spacelord321: There are plenty of hucksters out there. Plenty of well intentioned ones to boot. It's up to the consumer to make that choice. Not you.

The problem with this line of thinking is the difficulty in telling which product is real and which isn't. If I'm purchasing a car, it's pretty easy to tell when I'm getting a decent car and when I'm not. There are tons of experts around that I can take it to and get it evaluated, or I could fairly easily learn many of the basics myself if I wanted to - not in great detail, mind you, but enough to tell the difference between a decent car and a clunker.

The same is not true of supplements, medical treatments, and drugs. It can takes years of dedicated study to understand the basics of biology, chemistry, and physics (all of which are necessary to even begin to understand the difference outside of a layman's level). If you have two bottles of similar drugs - let's say one is prescription and another over-the-counter - a layman will never be able to tell the difference unless there are laws in place to state on the bottle what each contains. To determine the difference, it will take equipment which can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars (or more, depending on the molecular difference - I've seen some machines that cost in the millions, specifically ICP/MS) - and it takes years of training in chemistry to learn how to properly operate these machines. The average person doesn't have the knowledge to operate these machines, much less even have access to them.

Homeopathy is a vastly popular medical treatment - even though it does nothing (it's entirely a placebo effect). I've seen some homeopathy products that do have some effect, but those were due to the "inactive ingredients" listen on the container. The company was flat out lying. How does one know the company is lying? One must have knowledge of basic physics and chemistry - and then one has to understand the theory behind homeopathy to know that it viola ...

I agree completely about homeopathy. No argument whatsoever.

That is just one of many "alternative" approaches to medicine. Not all are that. And even if they only grant the placebo effect, I'm ok with that. We willingly sell people products that kill them in the form of alchohol, tobacco, fast food, soda, etc. How is this any different? Quit acting like you care about misled people. You're just pushing an agenda. I am pushing mine. I want people to be allowed to expiriment with their own bodies to their hearts delight.

spacelord321: That is just one of many "alternative" approaches to medicine. Not all are that. And even if they only grant the placebo effect, I'm ok with that. We willingly sell people products that kill them in the form of alchohol, tobacco, fast food, soda, etc. How is this any different? Quit acting like you care about misled people. You're just pushing an agenda. I am pushing mine. I want people to be allowed to expiriment with their own bodies to their hearts delight.

Right. Because industries blatantly advertise that soda, tobacco, fast food, and alcohol will cure them of diseases. That's a completely apt comparison. I mean, I can't count the number of times I've seen Pepsi state that it will cure diabetes or cancer!

You want to know how it's different? The same medical field that tells people to avoid tobacco, limit alcohol, reduce consumption of high sugar foods, and eat healthy is the same field that's providing the data to support those recommendations. We do the science to back it. We try our best to make things clear, but we also understand that not everyone is an expert in the sciences. This is why legislation is so important in the medical field - it's too risky to let people "decide for themselves" when there are con men and quacks out there ready to lie to sell their products - products like acupuncture, homeopathy, sublaxation chiropractic, detox schemes, miracle mineral solution, megadose vitamins, calorie blockers, chelation therapy, cellulite removers, remedies "invented by a teacher" or "invented by a mom," power balance bracelets, colloidal stuff, ear candling, macrobiotics, raw milk, magnet therapy, organic foods as "higher nutritional value" (as compared to eating organic to avoid pesticides), reiki, reflexology, therapeutic touch, "biomed" cures for autism, coffee enemas, faith healing, iridology, nutritionists claiming to be experts on diet, those who claim that "natural" is good and "chemical" is bad, those who promise to "purify your body" or "revitalize your body" or "balance your pH or chemistry" or "strengthen your immune system" or "unlock your body's healing ability," those who convince people that there are more than two strands of DNA or teach people how to "activate your DNA," people who use anecdotes and testimonials in lieu of research and data, companies that do a single test tube study or animal study and then claim it's "backed by research," those who use hair analysis to determine your nutritional deficiencies (and of course they have everything you need to buy right there with them) - similarly, there are those that try to do the same with a simple questionnaire, those that claim their work is "suppressed by the medical industry because it's controversial," those that tell people not to trust their doctors, those that claim "we treat the cause of the disease, not the symptom like western medicine does," those who try to confuse and scare people by citing "iatrogenic death" figures, those that claim a treatment is "time-tested" because it's been around for centuries - as compared to actually doing research, those that claim they know "things your doctor doesn't want you to know," anything that claims it has no side effects, and more.

There's little or no regulation in all of those industries. We have evidence that vitamin and supplement manufacturers often have zero quality control, and often lie to their customers about the quality of their products. I know a man that used to work on the production line of a vitamin plant; he told me that when they were short on product, they would make it up by adding flour. I'm inclined to believe him because a recent report showed that 2/3rds of inspected vitamin plants had citations for failure to follow good manufacturing guidelines.

"So far this year [2012], FDA inspectors have found violations of good manufacturing practices during two-thirds of the 204 inspections they have conducted in nearly 200 supplement firms' facilities, agency officials said. Seventy of these inspections resulted in the agency's most serious rating.

Some firms don't even have recipes, known as master manufacturing records, for their products.

Others make their supplements in unsanitary factories. New Jersey-based Quality Formulation Laboratories produced protein powder mixes and other supplements in a facility infested with rodents, rodent feces and urine, according to government records. FDA inspectors found a rodent apparently cut in half next to a scoop, according to a 2008 inspection report." Link

I've seen other reports that show the active ingredients vary not only from supplement bottle to supplement bottle, but also from pill to pill! That's horrific!

More importantly, though, is the inability for us humans to be objective when looking at a treatment we're taking for ourselves. There's no way to know if the treatment is actually working when you self medicate, because it could always be a coincidence that you recovered after taking the medication. You need a good solid analysis over thousands or more people, an analysis which reduces bias as best as it can. You need good statistical data to determine if a treatment actually works. You cannot do statistics on just one data point, which is why self-medication is so worthless. It's also why there's a decent bell curve when a treatment is given over a population - some people react better than others, and there's usually no way to tell before hand.

Lastly, thanks for being a total asshole with the "I don't care about misled people" comment. I'm the one trying to be clear, trying to be understood. The vast majority of scientists are, as well. Alt med con men and quacks are the one trying to be confusing and trying to conflate the truth with subtle lies. Look at your own comment, trying to conflate medical treatments with tobacco and soda - if that's not a con man being caught in a lie, then I don't know what is.

Ok. So I'm an asshole by calling you out for lumping all practitioners of alternative medicines into the same catagory of quaks and charlatens? You called me a gutless weasel, f

Ok. So I'm an asshole by calling you out for lumping all practitioners of alternative medicines into the same catagory of quacks and charlatens? You called me a gutless weasel, f (I don't have a preview option for some reason, and I accidentally clicked on submit) ... for not taking a stance, so I'm taking one. Your mentality comes from a place of arrogance, mine from a place of inquisitiveness.

You are right on so many levels, I'll support some of that. But, if you suppress one "future hypothosis" medicine while exposing 100 fake ones, I am against that. I would guess ALL medicines that you hold on high had naysayers who thought they knew better at one point. Scientific study proved them right, and further scientific study shall prove some of those flawed. It is exactly your blind faith in established medicine that has caused opiates to be the number one accidental killer in America this year.

To use a possibly more appropriate analogy, we jail charlaten preachers when they prey upon the needy. However, we don't outlaw rel



I

( did it again ) religion altogether. Why do you feel that people who adhere to different medicinal beliefs are not intelligent enough to make decisions for themselves?

I rescind my statement that said you didn't care that people were being misled. It seems you do. Where I have a problem is when you start assuming your stance is the correct one, and then seek to legislate them into accepting your beliefs.spacelord321: Ok. So I'm an asshole by calling you out for lumping all practitioners of alternative medicines into the same catagory of quacks and charlatens? You called me a gutless weasel, f (I don't have a preview option for some reason, and I accidentally clicked on submit) ... for not taking a stance, so I'm taking one. Your mentality comes from a place of arrogance, mine from a place of inquisitiveness.

You are right on so many levels, I'll support some of that. But, if you suppress one "future hypothosis" medicine while exposing 100 fake ones, I am against that. I would guess ALL medicines that you hold on high had naysayers who thought they knew better at one point. Scientific study proved them right, and further scientific study shall prove some of those flawed. It is exactly your blind faith in established medicine that has caused opiates to be the number one accidental killer in America this year.

To use a possibly more appropriate analogy, we jail charlaten preachers when they prey upon the needy. However, we don't outlaw rel



I



To take this further, what do you feel about colon cleansing? I have met doctors (MD) on either side of the table. Some that would advise it is the single most healthy act you can perform for your intestinal tract, and I have met those who believe it to be pure hogwash. I am a cook who has seen his share of clogged drain pipes, and the mucoid plaque that comes out of you is comparable to the jelly like substance that comes out of drains. I don't need scientific proof to tell me that is benificial to ones' health. It makes sense if you use scientific intuition.

spacelord321:

To take this further, what do you feel about colon cleansing? I have met doctors (MD) on either side of the table. Some that would advise it is the single most healthy act you can perform for your intestinal tract, and I have met those who believe it to be pure hogwash. I am a cook who has seen his share of clogged drain pipes, and the mucoid plaque that comes out of you is comparable to the jelly like substance that comes out of drains. I don't need scientific proof to tell me that is benificial to ones' health. It makes ...


You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss scientific proof. Colon cleansing is solidly in the "it depends on your lifestyle" camp. The way it's preached is absolute hogwash. It's not a magic elixir, and the reason it comes out as a gelatinous mass is because that's what water soluble fiber is, a non digestible gelatinous mass. However, that being said, if you eat a high protein, low carb diet, large amounts of fiber will keep any excess protein from moving too slowly through the bacteria that will break it down into gas and prevent bloating, cramping, and pain. It's a totally physical effect. Fiber keeps moisture and bulk in your colon to push other digesting foods through before they can ferment and get gassy. If you are prone to overeating, fiber is an ABSOLUTE god send because it can push some of those excessive calories through before you absorb them. If you are prone to under eating or dieting, it's an absolute god send because it gives you a more comfortable experience. If you're just living an average life, with average balanced meals, and eat enough fiber, it gives you expensive poop.

spacelord321: (I don't have a preview option for some reason, and I accidentally clicked on submit)

Ouch. That sucks. :(

spacelord321: Ok. So I'm an asshole by calling you out for lumping all practitioners of alternative medicines into the same catagory of quacks and charlatens? You called me a gutless weasel, for not taking a stance, so I'm taking one.

I called you an asshole because you assumed that I like it when people are misled (or rather, I don't give a rat's ass about when people are misled). I did not call you an asshole for "calling me out." I think you are mistaken, but not an asshole for that. I also did not call you a gutless weasel. I called you a con man - i.e. a person who deliberately conflates and confuses with a purpose of gaining something from someone. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else?

With that, though, I do apologize for calling you a con man. After reading your posts, it seems you are not a con man; you are the con man's target. You are the one being conned.

spacelord321: But, if you suppress one "future hypothesis" medicine while exposing 100 fake ones, I am against that.

I am also against suppressing hypothesis. What I am for is not allowing untested hypothesis to be used on the public, unregulated. Those hypothesis need to be tested to show that they work BEFORE they can be sold on the market. Basic studies to ensure the techniques work as expected, followed by animal studies to determine if they work outside the test tube, along with toxicity testing to make sure they aren't harming people. Clinical trials to see if they work on humans, what side effects they produce, and whether they work better than what is currently available while being safer. Sometimes, you'll have two different techniques that work equally the same and both are relatively safe, but one works better on some segment of the population, while the other works better on a different segment - that's ok; but if a new technique comes down the research pipeline that isn't better than what is currently available, it costs more, and it's less safe, then we shouldn't be using it.

Alternative medicine doesn't do any of that. At all. Not a single technique used in alternative medicine (and I challenge you to find me one) has the same level of valid scientific research that normal medicine does. Typically, where you do see research in alt med, it's poor quality with limited studies.

spacelord321: I would guess ALL medicines that you hold on high had naysayers who thought they knew better at one point.

Indeed. They probably did. You know what proved the naysayers wrong? RESEARCH! Scientific studies that provided evidence that they worked! If the alt med people want to do the same thing - to prove naysayers wrong, then they have to provide the same level of research. We're talking about honest research with an honest attempt to show that certain techniques work, while discarding the ones that don't. We're not talking about manipulating data in order to "prove" that a technique works in order to con the patient, which is what many alt med practitioners do.

spacelord321: Scientific study proved them right, and further scientific study shall prove some of those flawed.

Exactly! It's this same level of research that I'm talking about that shows which techniques work and which don't. Scientists are the ones who do this.

spacelord321: It is exactly your blind faith in established medicine that has caused opiates to be the number one accidental killer in America this year.

Blind faith? HAHAHAHAHA. Wow. That's a good one. Have you not been paying attention to a single word I've said this entire time? By the way, choking is the number one accidental killer in America. Prescription drugs are the number one accidental poisoners. How do we know that? Scientific research! People monitored the population and collected data, evaluating it in a scientific manner. How will we fix it? By changing policy based on the research.

spacelord321: To use a possibly more appropriate analogy, we jail charlatan preachers when they prey upon the needy. However, we don't outlaw religion altogether.

For one, religion is a protected right in this country. Part of the Constitution, and all. Two, there really isn't a right or wrong religion. There's no way to test it, there's no way to prove it. Religion is all about belief.

Science and medicine, on the other hand, are completely opposite. They are absolutely, 100% testable. We can physically do the tests to show which techniques work and which ones don't. Following a "belief" in medicine is just idiotic when we have the tools to determine the difference. It's like having different beliefs in physics, and then acting like gravity doesn't really exist, it's just all those physicists trying to hold us down! (sorry for the pun). Or like having a different belief in chemistry, and acting like water can have memory - oh, wait, that's homeopathy.

spacelord321: Why do you feel that people who adhere to different medicinal beliefs are not intelligent enough to make decisions for themselves?

I never said that people are not intelligent enough to make medical decisions for themselves. I said people are not educated enough in the right fields. Let me list a few of the machines that I use fairly regularly to do toxicity testing - machines which I could use to determine whether a pill has what the company claims (whether it be a pharmaceutical pill or a vitamin or a supplement): GC/MS, LC/MS, FTIR, and NMR (there's more, but let's just go with these for now). Specifically, these are Gas Chromatography/Mass Spectroscopy, Liquid Chromatography/ Mass Spectroscopy, Fourier Transformation Infrared Spectroscopy, and Nuclear Magnetic Resonance. Do you know what these are, what they do, or how to use them? Do you know how to prepare samples in order to inject them into the machine so you can get an accurate readout and not destroy your equipment?

Conversely, would you let someone engineer a bridge without the relevant education and skills? What if they had different beliefs about physics? Why do you think medicine is different than any other field in science? While we don't know everything, we do know one hell of a lot about physiology, biology, chemistry, and physics - but more importantly, we have the scientific method, a process by which we do research to determine if the technique actually works, or if we're just fooling ourselves.

With that, I'm done for now. I've got to get to work. I'll be back later to answer your questions on colon cleansing, if the thread isn't closed by then.

Mr Guy: Colon cleansing is solidly in the "it depends on your lifestyle" camp.

There's nothing in your colon that needs to be cleaned out. This is why no one listens to you: too many obvious falsehoods.

And it's dangerous, so it's not even okay if you "like how it feels."

spacelord321: I rescind my statement that said you didn't care that people were being misled. It seems you do.

I didn't see this sentence earlier, or I would have commented on it. Thank you. I will try to be more civil, as well.

spacelord321: Where I have a problem is when you start assuming your stance is the correct one, and then seek to legislate them into accepting your beliefs

I think this is falling in the same line of thinking I commented on earlier - that is, science as a belief system. Science is not a belief system. Stating that acupuncture doesn't work isn't a belief - it's a fact. It's based on research. Techniques used in acupuncture or homeopathy or sublaxation chiropractic (note that this is different from musculoskeletal chiropractic) or hundreds of other alt med practices have been shown to be false through legitimate research, yet con men and quacks are still out there selling their products to people who are unable to tell the difference (unable due to a lack of education in the field).

spacelord321: To take this further, what do you feel about colon cleansing? I have met doctors (MD) on either side of the table. Some that would advise it is the single most healthy act you can perform for your intestinal tract, and I have met those who believe it to be pure hogwash. I am a cook who has seen his share of clogged drain pipes, and the mucoid plaque that comes out of you is comparable to the jelly like substance that comes out of drains. I don't need scientific proof to tell me that is benificial to ones' health. It makes sense if you use scientific intuition.

Before I comment on the colon cleansing, I want to comment on the statement in bold. "Intuition" in the sciences can help us seek answers, follow research paths, and develop new lines of research, but it is absolutely horrible in determining whether something is true or false. You are using intuition to determine if something is true or false - "colon cleansing (is or is not) good for one's health." And you are claiming that we do not need research to determine if the technique is good, bad, or neutral. You're just flat out saying that you don't care about the real answer; you don't care about the truth; you only care about how you feel about it. That is absolutely the wrong way to go about things. Do you do the same with your cooking? Do you "believe" that one can cook a full chicken by leaving it outside in the sun for a few days? Will it be perfectly safe to eat? Let's just look at how we feel about it, rather than doing research to determine what kind of bacterial growth is occurring, whether flies have laid eggs in it and maggots are growing inside, or any other number of things that can go wrong with improper cooking techniques. What if someone came along and told you that they believe you don't need heat to bake a cake, and it's just your belief that heat is necessary? If you were mean, you might laugh at them. If you were nice, you might calmly explain why they're wrong, and how heat is necessary for baking (hell, it's in the definition of baking).

Now, on to the colon cleansing. Sometimes, it's important to cleanse a colon, such as right before a colonoscopy or other techniques. But if you are doing it to "remove toxins" or simply to keep your colon clean, then you are doing it for the wrong purposes. You liver and waste system does a fine enough job of getting toxins out of your body, and your colon keeps itself clean enough on it's own.

As Mr. Guy said, fiber is an important part of one's diet, and as long as you're getting enough fiber, then you're getting all the colon cleansing you need, barring some odd medical problem.

All in all, you're not going to get much of a benefit from regular colon cleansing, but there is a risk to it. Remember when I talked about risk-benefit relationships? When you get a medical treatment done, you need to evaluate the risk vs. the benefit of the treatment. For your average adult, what is the benefit of getting a colon cleansing? None. There is no benefit. Some con men and quacks will tell you that disease starts in the gut (false), that food will rot in your large intestines (false), that toxins are absorbed in the large intestines (false), that you need it to detox (false), that it will get rid of parasites (false), or that it will rejuvenate your body (false, but subject to placebo effect). Sometimes, con men and quacks will give some chemicals that results in long green/grey/brown things that look like feces that come out. These are actually intestinal casts - and I wish I could find the video that shows it (basically, a person emulated some of the conditions inside the digestion tract, used one of the products, and the product formed into a giant grey glob that took the shape of the container. In your digestion tract, that container would be your colon), but it's been several years since I've seen it and I don't remember the title of the video. (ten minutes later...) I found it! Link

What about safety? Side effects of colon cleansing include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, dizziness, dehydration, electrolyte abnormalities, acute kidney insufficiency, pancreatitis, bowel perforation, heart failure, and infection. It can also remove beneficial bacteria in your gut - bacteria which are very important to digestion. Remember what I said about no treatment being side-effect free? Next time, as a colon cleansing practitioner what the side effects are. If they say it's perfectly safe, then they are lying to you.

jvl: Mr Guy: Colon cleansing is solidly in the "it depends on your lifestyle" camp.

There's nothing in your colon that needs to be cleaned out. This is why no one listens to you: too many obvious falsehoods.

And it's dangerous, so it's not even okay if you "like how it feels."

Which is why I said high fiber, and not colon cleanse. Colon cleanse is hogwash based on something real and actual: high fiber diets are extremely beneficial to people who over eat chronically, or are currently calorie restricted, and would absolutely fall in the loose category of colon cleansing. It's absolutely non controversial to say that excessive protein can ferment painfully in the colon, and that fiber supplementation helps prevent that by providing bulk and moisture. It's also non controversial to say that, for example, high fiber supplementation can also avoid the painful gas associated with lactose intolerance. It's a sad comment on society that people would believe it's controversial to say physical problems have physical solutions.

mgshamster: If I understand you right, you're claiming that some people use these to help their students or other practitioners visualize which muscles to flex or stretch during exercise. I concur that this can be a good thing, but one must be careful not to take it too far (like you said, I think).

Actually, I was theorizing that originally, it seemed very likely to me that people realized you could focus your mind along these patterns during exercise and physical exertion, and that it would improve your body and health, and then much, much later all the "woo woo" built up around it to try and figure out WHY it worked. My guess is that the original beliefs were just observations of how the physical body worked, and could be optimized.