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(Major League Baseball)   It's the bottom of the 13th, one out and a man on first and third. You're the first baseman and the ball is hit right to you. What do you do? What do you do?   (washington.nationals.mlb.com) divider line 162
    More: Fail, infielder  
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5020 clicks; posted to Sports » on 21 Aug 2012 at 3:06 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-21 02:52:27 PM
Looked like the second baseman to me. Probably what he did minus dropping the ball, then throw to first and get at least one out. Then again, if it's the 13th inning maybe I just do that and make it look like an accident (like he did) so I can go home.
 
2012-08-21 03:04:29 PM
there is a force-out at second base, could he still throw it there and get the out even if it's after the runner at third crosses home?
 
2012-08-21 03:04:55 PM

IAmRight: Looked like the second baseman to me. Probably what he did minus dropping the ball, then throw to first and get at least one out. Then again, if it's the 13th inning maybe I just do that and make it look like an accident (like he did) so I can go home.



No, he's the first baseman.  He had to go home, as that was the winning run.  Especially since the runner on first didn't move.  Which was strange.  If he went home and the guy on third didn't try to score, they could easily have gotten one out by getting the runner out at second.
 
Strange play all around.
 
2012-08-21 03:06:43 PM

thomps: there is a force-out at second base, could he still throw it there and get the out even if it's after the runner at third crosses home?



There was only one out, so that would not have helped.  He had to do anything he could to prevent the runner on third from scoring.  There was no option for a double play.
 
2012-08-21 03:07:56 PM

downstairs: thomps: there is a force-out at second base, could he still throw it there and get the out even if it's after the runner at third crosses home?


There was only one out, so that would not have helped.  He had to do anything he could to prevent the runner on third from scoring.  There was no option for a double play.


oh got it, i assumed there were two outs because it looked like he was pivoting to throw to first.
 
2012-08-21 03:10:47 PM
Wait, there's one man on both first & third? Either he's got some long legs, or human cloning is now legal!
 
2012-08-21 03:12:58 PM

downstairs: No, he's the first baseman.  He had to go home, as that was the winning run.  Especially since the runner on first didn't move.  Which was strange.  If he went home and the guy on third didn't try to score, they could easily have gotten one out by getting the runner out at second.


If he tagged the runner and then the base, then the run wouldn't count and they'd be out of the inning.
 
2012-08-21 03:13:38 PM

downstairs: IAmRight: Looked like the second baseman to me. Probably what he did minus dropping the ball, then throw to first and get at least one out. Then again, if it's the 13th inning maybe I just do that and make it look like an accident (like he did) so I can go home.


No, he's the first baseman.  He had to go home, as that was the winning run.  Especially since the runner on first didn't move.  Which was strange.  If he went home and the guy on third didn't try to score, they could easily have gotten one out by getting the runner out at second.
 
Strange play all around.


That was Dan Uggla, the 2nd baseman for the Atlanta Braves. The 1st baseman is Freddy Freeman, who's practically a foot taller. No mistaking them. Either way, it was just odd, and he was charged with an error.
 
2012-08-21 03:13:40 PM
Subby: not enough information. What's the score? How hard was it hit to me? What's the speed of the batter and both runners?
 
2012-08-21 03:13:57 PM
Also, if that was the first baseman, who's the guy standing on first base while he's f*cking around with it?
 
2012-08-21 03:14:08 PM
Now that I've actually clicked to see this long legg-ed man:

1. That's absolutely the second baseman.

2. No, mlb.com headline writer intern, that's not a walk-off hit, nor is it a single.
 
2012-08-21 03:14:10 PM

DeWayne Mann: Wait, there's one man on both first & third? Either he's got some long legs, or human cloning is now legal!


Are you saying clones are one person?
Clones are people dammit!
 
2012-08-21 03:14:37 PM
If I'm the first baseman, then I watch the ball getting hit to the 2nd.

If I'm the 2nd baseman, and hindsight is 20/20, can't I run over towards first, tag the runner that held then step on the bag? Is this a trick question?
 
2012-08-21 03:14:55 PM
Dan Uggla is the second baseman. Yeesh.
 
2012-08-21 03:15:06 PM

greenlady1: That was Dan Uggla, the 2nd baseman for the Atlanta Braves. The 1st baseman is Freddy Freeman, who's practically a foot taller.


That's the other thing I was gonna say - if that was a first baseman, that's the shortest f*cking first baseman I've seen outside of the LLWS.
 
2012-08-21 03:15:52 PM
He went fill Uggla
 
2012-08-21 03:17:02 PM

poughdrew: If I'm the 2nd baseman, and hindsight is 20/20, can't I run over towards first, tag the runner that held then step on the bag? Is this a trick question?


Make sure you do it in that order, since if you touch the base first and the guy from third makes it home before you tag him, then the run scores. But if you tag the guy first, then even if the guy scores before you touch the base, then the inning is over.

/again, this is all predicated on the idea that you want to play at least one more inning when you know you're just going to have to play again the next day
 
2012-08-21 03:17:28 PM
Can't see the video, so if I trust the description (ball hit to 1st with runners on 1st and 3rd, 1 out):

I check the runner at third, if he's off on contact, I get the ball to the plate to keep the run from scoring. If the runner on third isn't going, I'm thinking double play by throwing to the shortstop at second and then letting the pitcher take the return throw (hope he remembers he's supposed to be covering). If no one is at second or I don't have a throw, take the sure out at 1st.

Whatever I do, I better not drop the ball.
 
2012-08-21 03:19:01 PM

DeWayne Mann: Now that I've actually clicked to see this long legg-ed man:

1. That's absolutely the second baseman.

2. No, mlb.com headline writer intern, that's not a walk-off hit, nor is it a single.


Shockingly, the scoring was changed after the game to an RBI single. I have no explanation for how that was not E4, but somehow the official scorer credited Tracy with a hit.
 
2012-08-21 03:19:10 PM
Infield was playing in to cut the run at the plate. Double play should not have crossed his mind. Your mind set has to be field the ball and immediately go home. If when you look up the runner from 3rd is not breaking (not the case here...gone on contact) then you would have some options. But everyone has to know what that guy on 3rd is doing.
 
2012-08-21 03:19:28 PM

Nezorf: DeWayne Mann: Wait, there's one man on both first & third? Either he's got some long legs, or human cloning is now legal!

Are you saying clones are one person?
Clones are people dammit!


I'm not saying clones share a consciousness or anything like that.

But, for instance, if you have a bunch of clones of one guy, I'm pretty sure the correct pronoun to use to refer to said group is "he" not "they."
 
2012-08-21 03:20:32 PM
Oops, fail all around for me.  It is the second baseman.
 
Now, I'm not sure he'd be able to tag the runner going to first... seems risky.  And if he did, then you have the runner between first and second in a run-down, correct?  And therefore the score at home would count.
 
Huh.  Been watching baseball all my life and now I'm confused as to what he should have done that would have been better than just throwing home.
 
2012-08-21 03:21:09 PM

rag819: Shockingly, the scoring was changed after the game to an RBI single. I have no explanation for how that was not E4, but somehow the official scorer credited Tracy with a hit.


Ok, that's it, I officially give up on errors. Worst stat in the game.
 
2012-08-21 03:21:21 PM
If the fielder gets only one out, the tag on the runner or tag first base, the run scores.
If he gets an unassisted double-play for the second & third outs the inning ends regardless of when the runner on 3rd scores.

I don't watch baseball anymore, but you can't outrun the 3rd out....I think.
Somewhat related: You can't suicide squeeze with two outs.

/I'm probably wrong
//and making things worse
 
2012-08-21 03:23:08 PM

DeWayne Mann: I'm not saying clones share a consciousness or anything like that.


I hope you don't mind me taking that snippet out of context and showing it to my friends, saying "DeWayne Mann in a baseball thread just said this", because that is so awesomely random on its own.

To stay on topic, I didn't see this game nor the highlights beforehand, but upon clicking the video and seeing the Braves were involved, I immediately assumed Uggla farked up
 
2012-08-21 03:24:00 PM

JohnnyCanuck: Infield was playing in to cut the run at the plate. Double play should not have crossed his mind. Your mind set has to be field the ball and immediately go home. If when you look up the runner from 3rd is not breaking (not the case here...gone on contact) then you would have some options. But everyone has to know what that guy on 3rd is doing.


And that's retarded thinking. 1 out, force at 2nd. You play double play depth, double play ends the inning. If you're going to just hold the runner at 3rd WALK the batter!

This was just fail on the Braves all the way around.

Poor call by the coaches, and piss poor thinking by the second baseman, ball hit that sharply is ALWAYS a double play ball.
 
2012-08-21 03:25:48 PM
It was the 2nd baseman, they had a shift on and the 1st baseman was covering 1st. he should have gone home with it
 
2012-08-21 03:26:10 PM

IAmRight: poughdrew: If I'm the 2nd baseman, and hindsight is 20/20, can't I run over towards first, tag the runner that held then step on the bag? Is this a trick question?

Make sure you do it in that order, since if you touch the base first and the guy from third makes it home before you tag him, then the run scores. But if you tag the guy first, then even if the guy scores before you touch the base, then the inning is over.


Do you know what the call is if he tags the guy on the path to 2nd base after the runner hits home, and then gets the force out at 1st? I assume that because it was a tag, the run counts even though that runner could have been forced out at 2nd, but I don't think I've ever seen it happen (and it didn't happen here, but could have).

In any event, although the typical answer is make the throw to home to prevent the winning run, I'm not sure he had time to make that throw based upon the replay. DP might have been his best option, but even that would have been close.
 
2012-08-21 03:26:18 PM

bionicjoe: If the fielder gets only one out, the tag on the runner or tag first base, the run scores.
If he gets an unassisted double-play for the second & third outs the inning ends regardless of when the runner on 3rd scores.

I don't watch baseball anymore, but you can't outrun the 3rd out....I think.
Somewhat related: You can't suicide squeeze with two outs.

/I'm probably wrong
//and making things worse


If you cross the plate before the third out, it counts unless the third out is a force play or a caught fly ball. If it is a tag play, the run counts.
 
2012-08-21 03:27:21 PM

DeWayne Mann: Ok, that's it, I officially give up on errors. Worst stat in the game.



Pretty much a useless stat.  However it does have one technical usage... to preserve the pitchers stats, including things like no hitters.
 
Basically, we really don't have a good way of measuring good/bad fielding.  The differences in range between players make it near impossible.
 
Two scenarios:
 
Second baseman A has massive range.  Dives very, very far to try to get a grounder.  Bobbles it.  Error?  Probably scored as such.
 
Second baseman B has terrible range.  Same grounder hit toward him.  He can't even get to it, and never touches it.  Won't score that an error.
 
 
 
 
 
 
2012-08-21 03:27:28 PM

bionicjoe: If the fielder gets only one out, the tag on the runner or tag first base, the run scores.
If he gets an unassisted double-play for the second & third outs the inning ends regardless of when the runner on 3rd scores.

I don't watch baseball anymore, but you can't outrun the 3rd out....I think.
Somewhat related: You can't suicide squeeze with two outs.

/I'm probably wrong
//and making things worse




You can't outrun a FORCE out. You can outrun the third out if it's not a force.

Forget tagging all the 2nd baseman had to do was throw to second and let the shortstop turn it and throw to first. Inning over
 
2012-08-21 03:29:51 PM

Killer Cars: I hope you don't mind me taking that snippet out of context and showing it to my friends, saying "DeWayne Mann in a baseball thread just said this", because that is so awesomely random on its own.


I'd be insulted if you DIDN'T do that.

(By the way, just to turn this thread into a complete trainwreck, the hilarious Star Wars/D&D mashup comic Darths And Droids actually has clones that do, sort of, share a consciousness. So, you know, it's possible.)
 
2012-08-21 03:30:24 PM

boyofd: Do you know what the call is if he tags the guy on the path to 2nd base after the runner hits home, and then gets the force out at 1st? I assume that because it was a tag, the run counts even though that runner could have been forced out at 2nd, but I don't think I've ever seen it happen (and it didn't happen here, but could have).


If the third out is a force out, then the run doesn't count.
 
2012-08-21 03:30:47 PM
Its like Uggla had you FARKers arguing in his head over what he should do and his brain short circuited.
 
2012-08-21 03:31:11 PM
Didn't Uggla have 4 errors in an all star game a few years back?
 
2012-08-21 03:31:13 PM

boyofd: IAmRight: poughdrew: If I'm the 2nd baseman, and hindsight is 20/20, can't I run over towards first, tag the runner that held then step on the bag? Is this a trick question?

Make sure you do it in that order, since if you touch the base first and the guy from third makes it home before you tag him, then the run scores. But if you tag the guy first, then even if the guy scores before you touch the base, then the inning is over.


Do you know what the call is if he tags the guy on the path to 2nd base after the runner hits home, and then gets the force out at 1st? I assume that because it was a tag, the run counts even though that runner could have been forced out at 2nd, but I don't think I've ever seen it happen (and it didn't happen here, but could have).

In any event, although the typical answer is make the throw to home to prevent the winning run, I'm not sure he had time to make that throw based upon the replay. DP might have been his best option, but even that would have been close.


Nope a force is a force no matter how it happens. Tag out or tagging the base is the same on a force out. Turning the double play in the order of 1) Put out on the runner on first 2) put out on batter ends the inning no matter how you do it and no matter what the runner on third does.

If you go 1) batter THEN you lose the force out on the runner on first. If the guy on third scores before you put out that runner THEN the run would count.
 
2012-08-21 03:31:40 PM

DoBeDoBeDo: bionicjoe: If the fielder gets only one out, the tag on the runner or tag first base, the run scores.
If he gets an unassisted double-play for the second & third outs the inning ends regardless of when the runner on 3rd scores.

I don't watch baseball anymore, but you can't outrun the 3rd out....I think.
Somewhat related: You can't suicide squeeze with two outs.

/I'm probably wrong
//and making things worse



You can't outrun a FORCE out. You can outrun the third out if it's not a force.

Forget tagging all the 2nd baseman had to do was throw to second and let the shortstop turn it and throw to first. Inning over


I was wondering with the middle infield was playing up with a runner on first. they should've played double play depth and the corners in. since the shortstop was up turning a double play was unlikely.
 
2012-08-21 03:31:51 PM
As the first baseman, the first thing he should do is learn where first base is.
 
2012-08-21 03:32:11 PM

coolio mack: Didn't Uggla have 4 errors in an all star game a few years back?


And those are just the ones they scored
 
2012-08-21 03:33:56 PM

DoBeDoBeDo: And that's retarded thinking. 1 out, force at 2nd. You play double play depth, double play ends the inning.


You're assuming the ball is going to be hit hard. If you play at double play depth, a slow roller ends the game. Even a moderately slow grounder might be tough to turn two on. You have to bring the infield in there.

DoBeDoBeDo: If you're going to just hold the runner at 3rd WALK the batter!


Walk Chad Tracy and pitch to Werth and Harper with 1 out and the bases loaded? I wonder why they didn't do that.......
 
2012-08-21 03:35:27 PM

drworm:
I was wondering with the middle infield was playing up with a runner on first. they should've played double play depth and the corners in. since the shortstop was up turning a double play was unlikely.


Watch the replay Shortstop wasn't up very far, he made it to second before the batter exited the box. Sharply hit ball means the batter is at a disadvantage.

But still I don't get playing for the runner at home when a DP ends the inning. Just walk the batter and go for the double play. No outs is a different story, then you play for the runner on third.
 
2012-08-21 03:35:36 PM

downstairs: Oops, fail all around for me.  It is the second baseman.
 
Now, I'm not sure he'd be able to tag the runner going to first... seems risky.  And if he did, then you have the runner between first and second in a run-down, correct?  And therefore the score at home would count.
 
Huh.  Been watching baseball all my life and now I'm confused as to what he should have done that would have been better than just throwing home.


There's no run down in this scenario. There is a force at first and second. You tag the dude running to second and quickly toss it to first for a double play.
 
2012-08-21 03:37:37 PM

DoBeDoBeDo: Forget tagging all the 2nd baseman had to do was throw to second and let the shortstop turn it and throw to first. Inning over



Didn't look like there was time to do that.  The runner would have beat the throw to first.  At least in my opinion after watching a few times.
 
I think you really need to be thinking "protect home plate first, at all costs"
 
2012-08-21 03:37:38 PM

DoBeDoBeDo: boyofd: IAmRight: poughdrew: If I'm the 2nd baseman, and hindsight is 20/20, can't I run over towards first, tag the runner that held then step on the bag? Is this a trick question?

Make sure you do it in that order, since if you touch the base first and the guy from third makes it home before you tag him, then the run scores. But if you tag the guy first, then even if the guy scores before you touch the base, then the inning is over.


Do you know what the call is if he tags the guy on the path to 2nd base after the runner hits home, and then gets the force out at 1st? I assume that because it was a tag, the run counts even though that runner could have been forced out at 2nd, but I don't think I've ever seen it happen (and it didn't happen here, but could have).

In any event, although the typical answer is make the throw to home to prevent the winning run, I'm not sure he had time to make that throw based upon the replay. DP might have been his best option, but even that would have been close.

Nope a force is a force no matter how it happens. Tag out or tagging the base is the same on a force out. Turning the double play in the order of 1) Put out on the runner on first 2) put out on batter ends the inning no matter how you do it and no matter what the runner on third does.

If you go 1) batter THEN you lose the force out on the runner on first. If the guy on third scores before you put out that runner THEN the run would count.


Thanks. Didn't realize that you could "force" out a guy by tagging him. Seems like he could have made this play rather easily (easier than throwing to 2nd and still getting the DP).
 
2012-08-21 03:38:44 PM

thefireandpassion: There's no run down in this scenario. There is a force at first and second. You tag the dude running to second


Are you serious?
 
2012-08-21 03:39:32 PM

thefireandpassion: downstairs: Oops, fail all around for me.  It is the second baseman.
 
Now, I'm not sure he'd be able to tag the runner going to first... seems risky.  And if he did, then you have the runner between first and second in a run-down, correct?  And therefore the score at home would count.
 
Huh.  Been watching baseball all my life and now I'm confused as to what he should have done that would have been better than just throwing home.

There's no run down in this scenario. There is a force at first and second. You tag the dude running to second and quickly toss it to first for a double play.



Watching the video, I don't see how that could have been done in time.  Uggla wasn't *that* close to the guy on first, and the hitter had some speed.
 
 
 
 
2012-08-21 03:40:23 PM

Rex_Banner: DoBeDoBeDo: And that's retarded thinking. 1 out, force at 2nd. You play double play depth, double play ends the inning.

You're assuming the ball is going to be hit hard. If you play at double play depth, a slow roller ends the game. Even a moderately slow grounder might be tough to turn two on. You have to bring the infield in there.


Don't HAVE too and my way would have ended the inning. Bring first and third up as anything slow to the corners is going to kill a DP. But middle infield should always be looking to turn two as it's the easiest way to do it.
 
2012-08-21 03:40:34 PM
I thought the answer always was to shoot the hostage.
 
2012-08-21 03:42:01 PM
I'm feeling charitable today. I've got an idea in my head for a gigantic rant about why errors are the worst stat in the game. Normally, I'd just go ahead and write it up and then post it and everyone would go TL;DR.

But, instead, I'll do this:

Does anyone WANT to read a giant rant from me about why errors are the worst stat in the game? Or can we all just agree they are and move on with our lives, never using them again?
 
2012-08-21 03:42:47 PM

thomps: there is a force-out at second base, could he still throw it there and get the out even if it's after the runner at third crosses home?


This is a thought experiment I've wondered about lately: Imagine this situation: 2 outs, bottom of the 9th, tie game, runners on second and third.

You're the runner on second.

There are only two ways you can score: the runner on third scores ahead of you and then you score, or the runner on third is put out and then you score. In the first instance, the game will end when the runner on third scores, so you can't score behind him (walk-off home run notwithstanding). In the second instance, if the runner on third is put out, the inning ends, so you can't score. So on anything other than a home run, you cannot score. No upside.

The two things you can do are get tagged out on the basepaths or be hit by a batted ball. Big downside.

So if you're the runner on second, why run? And for that matter, why even take a lead?

/remember, first base is unoccupied, so you can't be forced at third
 
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