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(The New York Times)   I'm shocked, shocked, to learn that the corrupt President of Ecuador actually doesn't care about free speech and is just using Assange as a pawn   (nytimes.com) divider line 149
    More: Obvious, Julian Assange, Ecuador, free speech, US Ambassador, Rafael Correa, western hemispheres, Latin American, standardbearers  
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1417 clicks; posted to Politics » on 21 Aug 2012 at 4:11 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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vpb [TotalFark]
2012-08-21 01:54:53 PM
encrypted-tbn0.google.com
 
2012-08-21 02:03:21 PM
Instead, it is an attempt by Mr. Correa to settle old scores with the United States, display his political prowess in the run-up to Ecuadorean presidential elections next year and make a power play for a leadership role on the Latin American left.

That's politics, innit?
 
2012-08-21 02:25:58 PM
That relationship soured in early April 2011, when the Ecuadorean government expelled the American ambassador, Heather M. Hodges, angered by comments she had made in confidential cables, obtained by WikiLeaks, in which she accused Mr. Correa of appointing a corrupt police chief in order to have someone in the post "whom he could easily manipulate."

Gee, he was held hostage by the police in 2010 after he announced a cut in their benefits. Who wouldn't appoint someone less likely to attack him?

/ His dramatic confrontation with police on video "If you want to kill me, here I am!"
 
2012-08-21 02:30:49 PM
Way to take the pro-US government angle there, NYT. Very interesting.
 
2012-08-21 03:19:47 PM
This is why we install dictators.
 
2012-08-21 04:11:59 PM
What would be shocking is if Assange didn't realize this in the first place.
 
2012-08-21 04:12:19 PM
Since when did anything Julian Assange related have anything to do with free speech?
 
2012-08-21 04:12:20 PM
But the people who are trying to silence him do care about free speech?
 
2012-08-21 04:13:21 PM
It's like the end of "School Ties". The President of Equador is using Assange to get even on the United States. Assange is using Ecuador to be free.
 
2012-08-21 04:14:27 PM
And I'm surprised that Assange's followers aren't smart enough to realize he's only going to Ecuador because he doesn't have the balls to stand up for what he believes in. Assange is a coward, and so are all this followers.
 
2012-08-21 04:14:56 PM

make me some tea: Way to take the pro-US government angle there, NYT. Very interesting.


They had to apologize to their readership for cheerleading the run up to the Iraq war and pushing all those lies that got us there.
 
2012-08-21 04:15:12 PM
Allowing people to stay in the country strictly for political purposes? Wait 'til the next boat full of Cuban refugees who all become naturalized Floridians learn about this!!!
 
2012-08-21 04:19:30 PM
Whargarble.
Another idiot analyst who hasn't a farking clue what he's writing about, except that he knows where his bread is buttered.

NYTimes = Pravda.
 
2012-08-21 04:20:03 PM

WTF Indeed: And I'm surprised that Assange's followers aren't smart enough to realize he's only going to Ecuador because he doesn't have the balls to stand up for what he believes in. Assange is a coward, and so are all this followers.


I'm pretty sure he's going to Ecuador because he's standing up for what he believes: Meaning, he believes Sweden will hand him over to the US, who will let him rot in jail with no trail.
 
2012-08-21 04:21:20 PM

make me some tea: Way to take the pro-US government angle there, NYT. Very interesting.


Hmmmm, which side to take: the people that give us all the source material that keeps us relevant as a newspaper of record, or a guy that's done a lot show everybody just how shallow our reporting really is..... Decisions, decisions...
 
2012-08-21 04:21:30 PM

WTF Indeed: And I'm surprised that Assange's followers aren't smart enough to realize he's only going to Ecuador because he doesn't have the balls to stand up for what he believes in. Assange is a coward, and so are all this followers.


In fairness, he doesn't want to be extradicted to the United States, seeing as how we no longer have the balls to stand up for the due process we once believed in. I mean, what with that terrorist looking over your shoulder right now and all.
 
2012-08-21 04:21:33 PM

make me some tea: Way to take the pro-US government angle there, NYT. Very interesting.


Ecuador is run pretty much as a police state. Assange going there means he cares more about his freedom than his ideals. Ecuador is using Assange to gain cred in the "I hate the US more than you." game.
 
2012-08-21 04:22:29 PM
Politicians gonna politic.
 
2012-08-21 04:23:00 PM
But but state secrets.. we must protect the state!
 
2012-08-21 04:25:09 PM

dervish16108: It's like the end of "School Ties". The President of Equador is using Assange to get even on the United States. Assange is using Ecuador to be free.


This. It seems pretty obvious to anyone, are we supposed to be outraged that people and governments act in their own self interest.
 
2012-08-21 04:26:06 PM

WTF Indeed: make me some tea: Way to take the pro-US government angle there, NYT. Very interesting.

Ecuador is run pretty much as a police state. Assange going there means he cares more about his freedom than his ideals. Ecuador is using Assange to gain cred in the "I hate the US more than you." game.


What ideal is this?
 
2012-08-21 04:27:13 PM
This. It seems pretty obvious to anyone, are we supposed to be outraged that people and governments act in their own self interest.

Governments act in their own self interests because the people who run the government are acting in their own self insterests because people typically will always act in their own self interest.

The problem is the government forces everybody else to act in their interest as well.
 
2012-08-21 04:27:52 PM

corronchilejano: I'm pretty sure he's going to Ecuador because he's standing up for what he believes: Meaning, he believes Sweden will hand him over to the US, who will let him rot in jail with no trail.


If the US wanted him to rot in jail with no trial than that's equal to him being dead. So if the goal of the US was to get rid of him, handing him over to the Ecuador, a third world country in South America, would mean he is fair game to every multi national corporation Assange ever pissed off. The US wants him because they know he cares more about himself than his ideals. He'll sell out all his friends and associates if it meant he couldn't be touched.
 
2012-08-21 04:28:34 PM

Esc7: WTF Indeed: make me some tea: Way to take the pro-US government angle there, NYT. Very interesting.

Ecuador is run pretty much as a police state. Assange going there means he cares more about his freedom than his ideals. Ecuador is using Assange to gain cred in the "I hate the US more than you." game.

What ideal is this?


Riding bareback.
 
2012-08-21 04:29:01 PM
A leftist South American government thumbing its nose at capitalist oppressors? The hell you say!
 
2012-08-21 04:29:17 PM
Well no shiat Captain Obvious. It's not like the US is offering more than lip service to the concept any longer, why would you expect more of other nations?
 
2012-08-21 04:29:42 PM

karmaceutical: Since when did anything Julian Assange related have anything to do with free speech?


Same time Assange had to do with anything at all.
 
2012-08-21 04:29:47 PM

WTF Indeed: And I'm surprised that Assange's followers aren't smart enough to realize he's only going to Ecuador because he doesn't have the balls to stand up for what he believes in. Assange is a coward, and so are all this followers.


Considering that the UK was willing to storm the Ecuadorean embassy in an effort to catch a guy who made the USA -- a country which has become famous in recent years for waterboarding prisoners, holding them for months without trial or even charges, and making their prisoners wear blacked-out goggles and airport-quality noise-cancelling headphones whenever they finally get a chance to go into a courtroom -- look bad, I've got a slight hunch that this is more than them trying to bring to "justice" a guy accused of not being good enough in the sack to bring a prostitute to orgasm.
 
2012-08-21 04:30:11 PM

WTF Indeed: make me some tea: Way to take the pro-US government angle there, NYT. Very interesting.

Ecuador is run pretty much as a police state. Assange going there means he cares more about his freedom than his ideals. Ecuador is using Assange to gain cred in the "I hate the US more than you." game.


What are your ideals?
 
2012-08-21 04:31:04 PM

Esc7: What ideal is this?


And here is the reason why Assange's followers are moronic, Wikileaks was about corporate and government transparency. Now Assange is going to place that restricts transparency on national level in order that he can live outside of the reach of the US government's courts.
 
2012-08-21 04:33:42 PM
Actually, it's not shocking that only 30 or so of us even give a f*ck about this.
 
2012-08-21 04:34:55 PM

make me some tea: Way to take the pro-US government angle there, NYT. Very interesting.


HotIgneous Intruder: Whargarble.
Another idiot analyst who hasn't a farking clue what he's writing about, except that he knows where his bread is buttered.

NYTimes = Pravda.


The NYT published several documents unveiled by Wikileaks back when the diplomatic cables story broke.
 
2012-08-21 04:35:13 PM

WTF Indeed: Now Assange is going to place that restricts transparency on national level in order that he can live outside of the reach of the US government's courts.


Your contention is that he should let himself be railroaded? Seems pretty stupid...
 
2012-08-21 04:35:14 PM

TofuTheAlmighty: A leftist South American government thumbing its nose at capitalist oppressors? The hell you say!


Are you trying to say the US has done bad things in Latin America? That's demonstrably false.
 
2012-08-21 04:35:25 PM

King Something: Considering that the UK was willing to storm the Ecuadorean embassy in an effort to catch a guy who made the USA -- a country which has become famous in recent years for waterboarding prisoners, holding them for months without trial or even charges, and making their prisoners wear blacked-out goggles and airport-quality noise-cancelling headphones whenever they finally get a chance to go into a courtroom -- look bad, I've got a slight hunch that this is more than them trying to bring to "justice" a guy accused of not being good enough in the sack to bring a prostitute to orgasm.


So because George Bush's administration made torture "legal" it means that Julian Assange can release classified state dept and defense dept papers? So the old "Well you did that bad thing so that means I can do this bad thing and it's okay because you're a doodyhead!" defense.
 
2012-08-21 04:37:08 PM

WTF Indeed: Esc7: What ideal is this?

And here is the reason why Assange's followers are moronic, Wikileaks was about corporate and government transparency. Now Assange is going to place that restricts transparency on national level in order that he can live outside of the reach of the US government's courts.


You get mad when the Taliban set off roadside bombs instead of challenging the Army to a set piece battle like Real Men, don't you?
 
2012-08-21 04:37:26 PM

WTF Indeed: He'll sell out all his friends and associates if it meant he couldn't be touched.


And yet, he hasn't.

WTF Indeed: Now Assange is going to place that restricts transparency on national level in order that he can live outside of the reach of the US government's courts.


He is charged with nothing, specially not by the US, why would the US courts want him? And yet, Sweden refused to conduct their questioning in the Ecuadorian embassy nor to promise to not give him to the US.

Also, inside a jail with no communication to the outside he can do nothing. Ecuador may be a hellhole to journalism against the goverment, but at least you can work there.

//They're our next door neighbors, they're cool.
 
2012-08-21 04:37:55 PM

WTF Indeed: Esc7: What ideal is this?

And here is the reason why Assange's followers are moronic, Wikileaks was about corporate and government transparency. Now Assange is going to place that restricts transparency on national level in order that he can live outside of the reach of the US government's courts.


I may be new to this idealism thing, but if he is able to freely operate wikileaks with business as usual while living in Ecudor, I don't see that as a huge violation of ethics. I mean, certainly one can knowingly try to adhere to an ideal while also realizing that if he doesn't make some concessions he will be locked up in a secret prison somewhere. The two actions are not mutually exclusive in any rational mindset.

Of course, all of this assumes Assange has morals beyond "look how big a douche I am," which I am doubtful of. He and Wikileaks do things that have caused great change (good or ill depending on who you talk to), but I don't believe for a minute Assange was ever out for anything but his own self aggrandizement. Which is fine, most people who end up doing great things are the same way.

But the man isn't a saint by a long shot.
 
2012-08-21 04:38:32 PM

Headso: Your contention is that he should let himself be railroaded? Seems pretty stupid...


No, the man has to do what the man has to do, but he projects this image of himself as the revolutionary fighting for the little people. When he's really an egotistical man who would rather hide out in a country that spits in the face of everything that he believes in than rather face his actions in Sweden or the States. That's what you call a coward.
 
2012-08-21 04:39:56 PM

WTF Indeed: Esc7: What ideal is this?

And here is the reason why Assange's followers are moronic, Wikileaks was about corporate and government transparency. Now Assange is going to place that restricts transparency on national level in order that he can live outside of the reach of the US government's courts.


In contrast to being thrown in a Chinese American prison with no outside contact for years? I can't see a problem with this. He can't work on transparency when he's effectively dead.

I'm betting Obama is in favor of him going to Ecuador- whatever horrible things he would do to Assange won't be enough for the Republicans.
 
2012-08-21 04:39:58 PM

WTF Indeed: Esc7: What ideal is this?

And here is the reason why Assange's followers are moronic, Wikileaks was about corporate and government transparency. Now Assange is going to place that restricts transparency on national level in order that he can live outside of the reach of the US government's courts torture chambers.


The US is going after a guy who has not spent one second of his life on American soil for making them look bad.

If Thailand decided to chase after you in an effort to arrest you for calling their king a turd burglar despite you never having set foot on any land under their jurisdiction while you were in England, you were in the Chilean Embassy and the local police tried to storm the embassy because you were wanted by Singapore for an unpaid parking ticket, wouldn't you take your chances in the South American banana republic instead of taking the "courageous" route of going to answer for a minor crime in a country that would not guarantee that you'd be safe from the country that wants to torture you for every day of the rest of your natural life while simultaneously doing everything medically possible to keep you alive and conscious for as long as possible just so they can have that much more time to torture you?
 
2012-08-21 04:40:11 PM

stratagos: You get mad when the Taliban set off roadside bombs instead of challenging the Army to a set piece battle like Real Men, don't you?


Yes, because I'm a hipster for Napoleonic warfare.
 
2012-08-21 04:40:26 PM

WTF Indeed: So because George Bush's administration made torture "legal" it means that Julian Assange can release classified state dept and defense dept papers?


Julian Assange isn't a US citizen. He owes the US government no loyalty. Would you be outraged at a US citizen releasing Callssified papers of the PRC?
 
2012-08-21 04:41:07 PM
'Do some research!' Christine Assange steamrolls Western journalism

"Media that is owned by big business is against governments that want sovereignty from foreign nations, against governments that share the country's wealth with its populace, against countries that fight for environmental rights, and against countries that have constitutions which are underscored by human rights," she explained.

"We also know that many human rights groups are sponsored by the US," she added, noting that she would take into account what human rights groups have to say about Ecuador only after they "stop sitting on the fence" and start covering events like the abuse of Julian Assange's legal human rights by Sweden in breach of its own protocols.

Mr. Assange has a great mom.
 
2012-08-21 04:42:22 PM

ghare: Are you trying to say the US has done bad things in Latin America? That's demonstrably false.


Panama and Chile would like to have a word with you.
 
2012-08-21 04:42:37 PM

WTF Indeed: King Something: Considering that the UK was willing to storm the Ecuadorean embassy in an effort to catch a guy who made the USA -- a country which has become famous in recent years for waterboarding prisoners, holding them for months without trial or even charges, and making their prisoners wear blacked-out goggles and airport-quality noise-cancelling headphones whenever they finally get a chance to go into a courtroom -- look bad, I've got a slight hunch that this is more than them trying to bring to "justice" a guy accused of not being good enough in the sack to bring a prostitute to orgasm.

So because George Bush's administration made torture "legal" it means that Julian Assange can release classified state dept and defense dept papers? So the old "Well you did that bad thing so that means I can do this bad thing and it's okay because you're a doodyhead!" defense.


I don't think he's saying that - he's saying only a moron would expect a fair trial from our justice system at this point. Given that the game is rigged, refusing to play is a rational choice
 
2012-08-21 04:43:33 PM

Headso: Your contention is that he should let himself be railroaded? Seems pretty stupid...


WTF Indeed: No,


then later that same post...

WTF Indeed: he's really an egotistical man who would rather hide out in a country that spits in the face of everything that he believes in than rather face his actions in Sweden or the States. That's what you call a coward.


sooooo.... yes? you think he should allow himself to be railroaded?
 
2012-08-21 04:43:42 PM

WTF Indeed: Esc7: What ideal is this?

And here is the reason why Assange's followers are moronic, Wikileaks was about corporate and government transparency. Now Assange is going to place that restricts transparency on national level in order that he can live outside of the reach of the US government's courts.


If you're for pure governmental transparency, which would be the best country to live in, according to you?

That of course assumes, you would be responsible for where you reside. The vast majority of the world's population are residents of their respective country because they've been born there, not because they've selected a country that emulates their ideals.

The actions the US would most likely take against Assange would be indefinite detention at Guantanamo Bay or an espionage trial with the death penalty. I heavily disfavor the execution route, it is too public for too little gain.

Indefinite detention seems like the most probable outcome, should he fall into US custody, or US-friendly custody.

If you're of the moral viewpoint that what he did wasn't immoral or unethical, that the responsibility for the leak lies with Bradley Manning, indefinite detention by the U.S. is a terrible thing and should be avoided.

If I was in that situation, I'd use a country to hide, even one that isn't perfect by my standards.
 
2012-08-21 04:43:56 PM

EyeballKid: Allowing people to stay in the country strictly for political purposes? Wait 'til the next boat full of Cuban refugees who all become naturalized Floridians learn about this!!!


*citizenkaneclap.jpg*
 
2012-08-21 04:48:20 PM

WTF Indeed: Headso: Your contention is that he should let himself be railroaded? Seems pretty stupid...

No, the man has to do what the man has to do, but he projects this image of himself as the revolutionary fighting for the little people. When he's really an egotistical man who would rather hide out in a country that spits in the face of everything that he believes in than rather face his actions in Sweden or the States. That's what you call a coward.


You're implying that a reasonable consequence for his actions is to spend the rest of his life in jail, but it's not reasonable.
That's like calling someone a coward for not getting out of the car to fight the juice-head that is enraged over a lane change.

/too lazy to hit the signal thingy
 
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