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(Forbes)   Why billionaires rule and the government should do whatever the fark we say, by Forbes   (forbes.com) divider line 62
    More: Asinine, open market  
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2317 clicks; posted to Business » on 21 Aug 2012 at 1:30 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-21 01:06:51 PM  
photos.imageevent.com
 
2012-08-21 01:25:39 PM  
*facepalm*

Is there any doubt that these shiatwits have no farking clue what the definition of "an efficiently-operating economy" is, or what government is for?

/libertarian economics = aids
 
2012-08-21 01:31:15 PM  
Promoting trust, generosity and democracy, economic freedom has been a more powerful force for individual rights, self-determination-and humanity-than any government bureaucracy.

webs.rps205.com
 
2012-08-21 01:40:43 PM  
I'll believe that you stand for freedom when you call for repealing state-guaranteed limited liability protections for corporations and agree to make capital gains and dividends ordinary income.
 
2012-08-21 01:41:06 PM  
don't you just love it when people who were born with a gold plated spoon in their mouth start talking about the everyman.

Dude your lucky your father was as successful as he was AND that he was willing to suppress his sexuality long enough to bring your sorry ass in to the world.
 
2012-08-21 01:53:21 PM  

Serious Black: I'll believe that you stand for freedom when you call for repealing state-guaranteed limited liability protections for corporations and agree to make capital gains and dividends ordinary income.


Dividends are already ordinary income.

/ Just sayin'
 
2012-08-21 01:53:32 PM  

Serious Black: I'll believe that you stand for freedom when you call for repealing state-guaranteed limited liability protections for corporations and agree to make capital gains and dividends ordinary income.


Well then you'll love New York. I invested a few thousand dollars to become a non-responsible 10% owner of an LLC that ran a restaurant. I didn't manage it or make any decisions on running the place. I had just got my investment money back from regular dividends when the place went out of business. I broke even, or so I thought, so I wasn't too upset, until New York said that the restaurant owed back sales tax and I and every individual member of the LLC were liable for 100% of the back tax. The rest of the owners are all renters. I'm the only one with assets, so the partners took advantage of that leverage to force me to pay off the whole thing, seeing as I had a house to lose.

New York State is draconian. I'm not some Boss Tweed fat cat. I'm just a guy who had a little money and was trying to help a friend fulfill his dream and maybe make a few bucks selling back my ownership if it took off. I was willing to pay 10%, but this all-for-one law is unfair. I will never invest in a business again.

tl;dr version: some amount of limited liability protection should exist.
 
2012-08-21 02:00:23 PM  
The core truth about business is that its Amoral. It exists solely to generate profits for itself or its investors. Anything that retracted from that goal is inimical to its interests. Therefore.....
It will socialize as many costs as it can. This means an anti-regulatory stance.
It will minimize any costs it can't, consistent with the goal of making more profit. Key individuals are well compensated, whereas the rest are minimized.

That's good for the company, but it sucks for everyone else, including society at large.
 
2012-08-21 02:01:40 PM  

Tommy Moo: Serious Black: I'll believe that you stand for freedom when you call for repealing state-guaranteed limited liability protections for corporations and agree to make capital gains and dividends ordinary income.

Well then you'll love New York. I invested a few thousand dollars to become a non-responsible 10% owner of an LLC that ran a restaurant. I didn't manage it or make any decisions on running the place. I had just got my investment money back from regular dividends when the place went out of business. I broke even, or so I thought, so I wasn't too upset, until New York said that the restaurant owed back sales tax and I and every individual member of the LLC were liable for 100% of the back tax. The rest of the owners are all renters. I'm the only one with assets, so the partners took advantage of that leverage to force me to pay off the whole thing, seeing as I had a house to lose.

I'd say they lied to you about the non-responsible part, that or in future investments, select partly-responsibly to make sure the idiots are paying their bills.

 
2012-08-21 02:03:44 PM  
Promoting trust, generosity and democracy...

Yeah, about that...
 
2012-08-21 02:05:54 PM  

Tommy Moo: Serious Black: I'll believe that you stand for freedom when you call for repealing state-guaranteed limited liability protections for corporations and agree to make capital gains and dividends ordinary income.

Well then you'll love New York. I invested a few thousand dollars to become a non-responsible 10% owner of an LLC that ran a restaurant. I didn't manage it or make any decisions on running the place. I had just got my investment money back from regular dividends when the place went out of business. I broke even, or so I thought, so I wasn't too upset, until New York said that the restaurant owed back sales tax and I and every individual member of the LLC were liable for 100% of the back tax. The rest of the owners are all renters. I'm the only one with assets, so the partners took advantage of that leverage to force me to pay off the whole thing, seeing as I had a house to lose.

New York State is draconian. I'm not some Boss Tweed fat cat. I'm just a guy who had a little money and was trying to help a friend fulfill his dream and maybe make a few bucks selling back my ownership if it took off. I was willing to pay 10%, but this all-for-one law is unfair. I will never invest in a business again.

tl;dr version: some amount of limited liability protection should exist.


I entered into this business arrangment where I expected to do nothing and watch the checks rolled in. Then the enterprise failed and now the gov't expects me to live up to my obligations. No fair!

/That may not be what you meant, but that is exactly how you sound.
 
2012-08-21 02:05:58 PM  
Please stop green lighting Forbes links. Once in a while they are insightful (although not when it's something written by Steve Forbes himself), but the format sucks.

/or I guess I could just stop to look at the source before clicking.
 
2012-08-21 02:09:00 PM  

Serious Black: I'll believe that you stand for freedom when you call for repealing state-guaranteed limited liability protections for corporations and agree to make capital gains and dividends ordinary income.


the protections provided by limited liability and incorporation are necessary. no farking way I'd go into business without the protection of an entity. I like to know what my risk is, not open the barndoor to hell. (will probably start an LLC for myself some day, so that I may maintain a professional practice for which I am not personally liable in the event it goes bust... if that protection did not exist, I'd work for someone else for the rest of my life).

/ i think people throw around the words corporate responsibility without any clue as to what a corporation is, and what its responsibility is.
 
2012-08-21 02:12:16 PM  

Hyjamon: I'd say they lied to you about the non-responsible part, that or in future investments, select partly-responsibly to make sure the idiots are paying their bills.


There isn't a box to check. By non-responsible I mean I wasn't managing the place. I didn't make the decisions that lead to the bankruptcy.

verbaltoxin: I entered into this business arrangment where I expected to do nothing and watch the checks rolled in. Then the enterprise failed and now the gov't expects me to live up to my obligations. No fair!

/That may not be what you meant, but that is exactly how you sound.


Honestly, that's easy for you to say, but most people around where I grow up work for small companies. All the big boys packed up the factories and left years ago. When you have a chance to get a few people off of welfare and into a job, it pulls at your heartstrings. I wasn't intending to get rich. The policy of holding all members liable for 100% of debt is hypocritical and (I believe) unique to NY. Other states force all members to be at most liable for up to the amount of their ownership. In any case, no one can argue with the fact that it is straight up hypocrisy for a state to allow limited liability protection against all private debts but then say "Oh, we're the exception. We still get our money no matter what."
 
2012-08-21 02:13:58 PM  

verbaltoxin: Tommy Moo: Serious Black: I'll believe that you stand for freedom when you call for repealing state-guaranteed limited liability protections for corporations and agree to make capital gains and dividends ordinary income.

Well then you'll love New York. I invested a few thousand dollars to become a non-responsible 10% owner of an LLC that ran a restaurant. I didn't manage it or make any decisions on running the place. I had just got my investment money back from regular dividends when the place went out of business. I broke even, or so I thought, so I wasn't too upset, until New York said that the restaurant owed back sales tax and I and every individual member of the LLC were liable for 100% of the back tax. The rest of the owners are all renters. I'm the only one with assets, so the partners took advantage of that leverage to force me to pay off the whole thing, seeing as I had a house to lose.

New York State is draconian. I'm not some Boss Tweed fat cat. I'm just a guy who had a little money and was trying to help a friend fulfill his dream and maybe make a few bucks selling back my ownership if it took off. I was willing to pay 10%, but this all-for-one law is unfair. I will never invest in a business again.

tl;dr version: some amount of limited liability protection should exist.

I entered into this business arrangment where I expected to do nothing and watch the checks rolled in. Then the enterprise failed and now the gov't expects me to live up to my obligations. No fair!

/That may not be what you meant, but that is exactly how you sound.


no, I'm guessing he screwed up somewhere going in (or new york really is the devil and ignores the normal LLC rules). or, the LLC screwed up hardcore, and they found member liability.

for a non-managing member, you should be liable up to your investment. you're basically the LLC equivalent of a stockholder.
 
2012-08-21 02:14:39 PM  

pute kisses like a man: / i think people throw around the words corporate responsibility without any clue as to what a corporation is, and what its responsibility is.


My guess is it's because corporations around the world insist they have any right they want and hold no responsibility for anything.
 
2012-08-21 02:19:57 PM  

pute kisses like a man: verbaltoxin: Tommy Moo: Serious Black: I'll believe that you stand for freedom when you call for repealing state-guaranteed limited liability protections for corporations and agree to make capital gains and dividends ordinary income.

Well then you'll love New York. I invested a few thousand dollars to become a non-responsible 10% owner of an LLC that ran a restaurant. I didn't manage it or make any decisions on running the place. I had just got my investment money back from regular dividends when the place went out of business. I broke even, or so I thought, so I wasn't too upset, until New York said that the restaurant owed back sales tax and I and every individual member of the LLC were liable for 100% of the back tax. The rest of the owners are all renters. I'm the only one with assets, so the partners took advantage of that leverage to force me to pay off the whole thing, seeing as I had a house to lose.

New York State is draconian. I'm not some Boss Tweed fat cat. I'm just a guy who had a little money and was trying to help a friend fulfill his dream and maybe make a few bucks selling back my ownership if it took off. I was willing to pay 10%, but this all-for-one law is unfair. I will never invest in a business again.

tl;dr version: some amount of limited liability protection should exist.

I entered into this business arrangment where I expected to do nothing and watch the checks rolled in. Then the enterprise failed and now the gov't expects me to live up to my obligations. No fair!

/That may not be what you meant, but that is exactly how you sound.

no, I'm guessing he screwed up somewhere going in (or new york really is the devil and ignores the normal LLC rules). or, the LLC screwed up hardcore, and they found member liability.

for a non-managing member, you should be liable up to your investment. you're basically the LLC equivalent of a stockholder.


should, like committing world-wide mortgage fraud and lying to congress should have you land in prison.
 
2012-08-21 02:28:31 PM  

pute kisses like a man: the protections provided by limited liability and incorporation are necessary


Some protections provided by incorporation are necessary. Unfortunately, if the incorporated is big enough, it seems like their protections are virtually infinite anymore once you get beyond "slap on the wrist".

Protection from personal responsibility shouldn't extend to outright law-breaking, yet we have banks doing business with terrorists, stealing people's houses, and committing fraud, and not only are the people responsible immune from prosecution for their actions, the companies themselves rarely seem to be held accountable.

That's why people get a little pissy about the whole "corporate personhood" thing. Corporations aren't people in our system. People are held accountable. They're untouchable demigods.
 
2012-08-21 02:29:09 PM  

gameshowhost: Is there any doubt that these shiatwits have no farking clue what the definition of "an efficiently-operating economy" is, or what government is for?


They know exactly what they are doing, they seek to harvest America's collective wealth and place it in their foreign accounts, again. Money knows no allegiance to any flag. They probably have solid numbers on how America would be better for them if we turn into Mexico.
 
2012-08-21 02:32:21 PM  

pute kisses like a man: or new york really is the devil and ignores the normal LLC rules


In all honesty, it's this. I'm not going to claim that I'm a business genius, but I did my due diligence. I trusted the lawyer who filled out the LLC paperwork. She never told me about this quirk. I probably should have researched it myself, but when she said that I wouldn't be held liable for anything, I trusted her.

Here's an article if you're interested: Link

It looks like they actually are lightening up a bit, but it comes too late for me.
 
2012-08-21 02:34:39 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: pute kisses like a man: the protections provided by limited liability and incorporation are necessary

Some protections provided by incorporation are necessary. Unfortunately, if the incorporated is big enough, it seems like their protections are virtually infinite anymore once you get beyond "slap on the wrist".

Protection from personal responsibility shouldn't extend to outright law-breaking, yet we have banks doing business with terrorists, stealing people's houses, and committing fraud, and not only are the people responsible immune from prosecution for their actions, the companies themselves rarely seem to be held accountable.

That's why people get a little pissy about the whole "corporate personhood" thing. Corporations aren't people in our system. People are held accountable. They're untouchable demigods.


This I agree with you. Protection should be extended to the little guy in order to encourage small business investment and risk taking. But yes, it should end at a certain point when the company becomes a self-sustaining behemoth.
 
2012-08-21 02:42:51 PM  

Rent Party: Serious Black: I'll believe that you stand for freedom when you call for repealing state-guaranteed limited liability protections for corporations and agree to make capital gains and dividends ordinary income.

Dividends are already ordinary income.

/ Just sayin'


While ordinary dividends are considered ordinary income, qualified dividends (meaning roughly those for stocks you hold a majority of the year) are taxed at LTCG rates.

pute kisses like a man: the protections provided by limited liability and incorporation are necessary. no farking way I'd go into business without the protection of an entity. I like to know what my risk is, not open the barndoor to hell. (will probably start an LLC for myself some day, so that I may maintain a professional practice for which I am not personally liable in the event it goes bust... if that protection did not exist, I'd work for someone else for the rest of my life).

/ i think people throw around the words corporate responsibility without any clue as to what a corporation is, and what its responsibility is.


In other words, you are demanding that the government give you special privileges that tilt the rules of the free market in your favor before you are willing to enter business. Why are you opposed to freedom?
 
2012-08-21 02:45:33 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: My guess is it's because corporations around the world insist they have any right they want and hold no responsibility for anything.


links136: should, like committing world-wide mortgage fraud and lying to congress should have you land in prison.


Vegan Meat Popsicle: and not only are the people responsible immune from prosecution for their actions, the companies themselves rarely seem to be held accountable.


incorporation is an investment platform to put management in control of investor's capital. generally, the liability of the investor is limited to his investment, unless he breaks the rules. this encourages investors to inject capital into new ventures by accurately allowing them to assess their risk. generally, the management is protected from the debts of the corporation, unless he breaks the rules. this allows the talent to be in control, somewhat free from the dictates of the likely more conservative and risk-adverse investor.

none are protected from their bad acts. sometimes the corporation may insure or indemnify people. thus, the corporation becomes more responsible to pay for her bad actors. now, all of this is dealing with civil bad acts. once you open the criminal code, this all breaks down. the corporate structure provides no criminal protection.

the problem is not corporate responsibility. the issue is that the rich get away with behaving badly. that existed before corporate structures were invented.
 
2012-08-21 02:49:46 PM  
FTA: Today's bureaucratic and bloated Big Government, the authors argue, is the opposite of a moral force. Instead of assuring fairness, it promotes favoritism. Instead of furthering opportunity, it stifles economic growth. Instead of unleashing innovation and material abundance, its regulations and price controls create rigidity and scarcity.

Favoritism - like having members of other boards voting on your CEOs pay package with the knowledge that he sits on your board? Like when a CEO watches as his company loses tens of percentage points in value, then takes a $250M golden parachute to go work at another huge business with an 8-digit compensation package (or takes $89k/year to NOT work)? Like concealing billions of dollars in losses to your shareholders until after they ratify your spending package, only to avoid prosecution for this shadiness?

Stifling growth - you mean like buying out all your competition, allowing your pricing scheme to reign supreme? By gaming markets and lead times (VHS/Beta, Windows/Apple's OS)? By patent trolling?

Unleashing innovation - like the artificial scarcity of iPhones and Wiis? Promoting new technologies like the electric car and non-fossil fuels? Oh, also patent trolling?

Teve Torbes, you are guilty of having blinders the size of the Market Crash of 2008 bolted over your face like some kind of dorky white Father Vic, Economics Professor from Megadeth albums.

// yes, Mustaine's kind of a fool
 
2012-08-21 02:58:53 PM  

Serious Black: In other words, you are demanding that the government give you special privileges that tilt the rules of the free market in your favor before you are willing to enter business. Why are you opposed to freedom?


A certain amount of this is beneficial to society. We would not have witnessed the explosion of inventions and industrial processes in the 20th century without some protection for corporate members, anti-free market though it may be. Think of it this way: the government is going to be paying either way. Would you rather that money go toward absorbing the losses of failed business enterprises, or handing welfare to a bunch of people who wouldn't dare try to start a business without the protection of an LLC?
 
2012-08-21 03:12:08 PM  
It's ironic that Socialist Europe has more free market principles than America. If your company goes bankrupt, you are liquidated. Lets see vulture capitalists and others push for something like that in a "free market"
 
2012-08-21 03:14:19 PM  
The "Free Market" has crashed and burned causing massive problems how many times in human history?

THe author does not know what the word "moral" actually means.
 
2012-08-21 03:14:30 PM  
The Project for a New American Century was a manifesto created by the mega-rich. How did that one work out?
 
2012-08-21 03:23:03 PM  

intelligent comment below: It's ironic that Socialist Europe has more free market principles than America. If your company goes bankrupt, you are liquidated. Lets see vulture capitalists and others push for something like that in a "free market"


what do you think happens in a normal bankruptcy? ch 7 bankruptcy = liquidation. that's what it is. a process of liquidating the entity and paying approved claims.

so, your main problem with the free market is chapter 11 bankruptcies? re-organization? really? ch 11 is only going to happen when the company has some assets, and there's a chance of re-organization. but, to you, it's better to default on all the debt and pay no-one, then it is to re-negotiate, get some breathing room, and then hopefully pay everyone off?

/ bankruptcy is in our constitution. it's been a critical legal component of western society since the roman days, and probably existed prior to their recording of their laws.
 
2012-08-21 03:44:52 PM  

pute kisses like a man: intelligent comment below: It's ironic that Socialist Europe has more free market principles than America. If your company goes bankrupt, you are liquidated. Lets see vulture capitalists and others push for something like that in a "free market"

what do you think happens in a normal bankruptcy? ch 7 bankruptcy = liquidation. that's what it is. a process of liquidating the entity and paying approved claims.

so, your main problem with the free market is chapter 11 bankruptcies? re-organization? really? ch 11 is only going to happen when the company has some assets, and there's a chance of re-organization. but, to you, it's better to default on all the debt and pay no-one, then it is to re-negotiate, get some breathing room, and then hopefully pay everyone off?

/ bankruptcy is in our constitution. it's been a critical legal component of western society since the roman days, and probably existed prior to their recording of their laws.



Tell me how many companies go through ch7? Very few.

The point is bankruptcy means your company failed, in Europe they do it right. There is only Chapter 7 available. If your company fails, it fails. In America, companies go through Ch 11 as part of a strategy to remove bad debts and investments and start over. Just look at Bain Capital. It wouldn't exist if only Ch 7 was allowed.

Chapter 11 goes against all the free market principles the right wing peddles on society.

If you fail as a person, you are dead. If you fail as a company, here's so many ways to quickly get back on your feet and not lose any money.
 
2012-08-21 03:49:13 PM  

baka-san: Promoting trust, generosity and democracy, economic freedom has been a more powerful force for individual rights, self-determination-and humanity-than any government bureaucracy.

[photo of kids working in a factory]


Were those kids better off the day after employing them was outlawed and they lost their jobs?
And, if the answer is "yes," why didn't they quit their jobs before?
 
2012-08-21 03:50:06 PM  
Billionaires don't dream of killing me, my family, and my friends while burning my neighborhood to the ground. Poor democrats do.

Why am I supposed to hate evil Billionaires and love the holier than jesus poor?
 
2012-08-21 03:54:46 PM  

pjbreeze: The Project for a New American Century was a manifesto created by the mega-rich. How did that one work out?


The Vietnam War was waged by the guy who gave us the Great Society. That worked out great, didn't it?
 
2012-08-21 03:59:45 PM  
Steve Forbes makes Mr. Burns look like a socialist.
Unfettered Capitalism will cure everything-trust me!!
 
2012-08-21 04:06:01 PM  

pute kisses like a man: none are protected from their bad acts


Except, they are. People committing literally illegal acts in the name of corporations should be held liable and so should the corporations. That often does not happen, particularly in the case of unusually large crimes.

Nobody at Bank of America is going to be going to be going to prison for literally committing fraud by illegally robo-signing documents. If somebody not protect by the Inc. trailer were to do that, say, and independent contractor, they'd be arrested and tried.

A corporate canopy can and often does provide a level of indemnity when an individual, acting in the name of the corporation, commits an illegal act. You can literally commit third degree murder by negligently designing and selling a dangerous product and you will not be tried just because you did it in the name of a corporation.

Incorporating can and does provide immunity against prosecution for crimes committed against other people. That pisses people off.
 
2012-08-21 04:26:05 PM  
s11.postimage.org
 
2012-08-21 04:27:01 PM  

intelligent comment below: pute kisses like a man: intelligent comment below: It's ironic that Socialist Europe has more free market principles than America. If your company goes bankrupt, you are liquidated. Lets see vulture capitalists and others push for something like that in a "free market"

what do you think happens in a normal bankruptcy? ch 7 bankruptcy = liquidation. that's what it is. a process of liquidating the entity and paying approved claims.

so, your main problem with the free market is chapter 11 bankruptcies? re-organization? really? ch 11 is only going to happen when the company has some assets, and there's a chance of re-organization. but, to you, it's better to default on all the debt and pay no-one, then it is to re-negotiate, get some breathing room, and then hopefully pay everyone off?

/ bankruptcy is in our constitution. it's been a critical legal component of western society since the roman days, and probably existed prior to their recording of their laws.


Tell me how many companies go through ch7? Very few.

The point is bankruptcy means your company failed, in Europe they do it right. There is only Chapter 7 available. If your company fails, it fails. In America, companies go through Ch 11 as part of a strategy to remove bad debts and investments and start over. Just look at Bain Capital. It wouldn't exist if only Ch 7 was allowed.

Chapter 11 goes against all the free market principles the right wing peddles on society.

If you fail as a person, you are dead. If you fail as a company, here's so many ways to quickly get back on your feet and not lose any money.


if you fail as a person, you can also go through ch 11 bankruptcy. however, your plan has to pay everyone in full. otherwise, you can also go through ch 13...

businesses sometimes have a lot of assets and a lot of debt. the ch 11 method allows for some reorganization because the creditors are secured by the fact that the business has something under its belt.

you're going crazy about some militant morality approach to bankruptcy. we don't have bankruptcy to be hardasses. we have it because most adventures in life are failures. the stuff to remember in bankruptcy is the creditor and the fresh start for the debtor (or its death, if it's a liquidating entity). your notions of will to power business are not very relevant. ch 11 can be more beneficial to the creditors in the long run. bankruptcy law is not indifferent to creditors, ch 11 is not some way to screw them more.

/ in my circuit, we have liquidating ch 11s too... i don't understand completely how they're better then 7s... but we've got them... maybe it's just for people too lazy to convert after failing to pass a plan... i don't know.
// either way, are you upset that creditors are getting screwed, or distressed businesses are allowed a moment to breath before they revive or die.
 
2012-08-21 04:31:35 PM  

pute kisses like a man: if you fail as a person, you can also go through ch 11 bankruptcy. however, your plan has to pay everyone in full. otherwise, you can also go through ch 13...

businesses sometimes have a lot of assets and a lot of debt. the ch 11 method allows for some reorganization because the creditors are secured by the fact that the business has something under its belt.

you're going crazy about some militant morality approach to bankruptcy. we don't have bankruptcy to be hardasses. we have it because most adventures in life are failures. the stuff to remember in bankruptcy is the creditor and the fresh start for the debtor (or its death, if it's a liquidating entity). your notions of will to power business are not very relevant. ch 11 can be more beneficial to the creditors in the long run. bankruptcy law is not indifferent to creditors, ch 11 is not some way to screw them more.

/ in my circuit, we have liquidating ch 11s too... i don't understand completely how they're better then 7s... but we've got them... maybe it's just for people too lazy to convert after failing to pass a plan... i don't know.
// either way, are you upset that creditors are getting screwed, or distressed businesses are allowed a moment to breath before they revive or die.



Except some debts can't be forgiven, like student loans.

Bankruptcy is being taken advantage of by vulture capitalists like Bain Capital who run companies into the ground for their own profits. Or companies that make bad business decisions and deserve to fail, like some car companies or airlines. Chapter 11 is merely government backed protection from their bad decisions. Why do you care how much people get screwed with ch7? Your business failed. Ch 11 is not punishment, it's a great way to keep making bad business decisions in the future without ever learning a lesson. Do you know how many times some airlines have gone into ch 11?
 
2012-08-21 04:37:30 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Incorporating can and does provide immunity against prosecution for crimes committed against other people.


if i were to incorporate it would do fark all to save me from liability for crimes. incorporation does not work that way. go write up some articles, email it to the secretary of state and go see just how liberating that is.

has any proving fraud in your little examples? if so, in a trial? did it violate a criminal statute? has a verdict been found but some mystical corporate immunity is invoked?

no, because there is no such thing. fark, I've been (very distantly) involved in cases were corporations were involved in criminal stuff... they all went to jail for a long time, as people. I'm sure they all wish there was such a thing as protection from criminal liability for incorporating.

you're just mad that the world doesn't fit into your personal theories of vengence. 

/ anyways, if any of these corporations did the things you allege, you think they're not being sued? i'm in a class action against my bank for some crap or other. it wasn't criminal, but they're still being sued. i guess that means they are not immune from prosecution.
 
2012-08-21 04:47:28 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Please stop green lighting Forbes links. Once in a while they are insightful (although not when it's something written by Steve Forbes himself), but the format sucks.

/or I guess I could just stop to look at the source before clicking.


Have you seen those glasses that Steve Forbes wears? I think he's the one telling the web designers what to do.

/And they have too many slideshows.
 
2012-08-21 04:48:46 PM  

Rent Party: Serious Black: I'll believe that you stand for freedom when you call for repealing state-guaranteed limited liability protections for corporations and agree to make capital gains and dividends ordinary income.

Dividends are already ordinary income.

/ Just sayin'


"Qualified Dividends" have been taxed at the same rate as Capital Gains for over a decade now.
 
2012-08-21 04:56:13 PM  

intelligent comment below: Except some debts can't be forgiven, like student loans.


yeah... intermingling of social policy and placating creditor interests... sometimes both the liberals and the conservatives win. at my expense (i say at my expense because the debt suffers extraordinary creditor protections, and the ease with which they are approved is probably directly related to the massive increase in university costs). this is why i always want my political factions bitterly opposed to each other. cooperation results in the placating of everyone's interests but mine.

I'll enjoy the next 30 years with this yoke (hopefully less than 30 years, but who knows, life is horrible).

intelligent comment below: Chapter 11 is merely government backed protection from their bad decisions. Why do you care how much people get screwed with ch7? Your business failed. Ch 11 is not punishment, it's a great way to keep making bad business decisions in the future without ever learning a lesson. Do you know how many times some airlines have gone into ch 11?


saying it's government backed is strange. I guess that technically you may have said something, but the connotation is absurd. there are debtor and creditor laws. sometimes creditors suck, sometimes debtors suck, so there are laws to regulate that relationship. otherwise we have the pound of flesh people and debtor's prisons and slavery.

ch 11 is nothing more than a moment of breathing space in which time to reorganize and restructure debts. most companies do not survive ch 11. most fail. however, for those that pass, it's considered a good thing. the creditors are collect more when the ch 11 debtor succeeds. that's why it exists. because creditors are a necessary part of our world. 

the fact that it is being abused is unfortunate. but abuse is not the norm.

our current bankruptcy scheme is advanced, young, and not altogether completely fleshed out. so, some dicks abuse the system. bankruptcy jurists are writing all the time, trying to revise the system to make it perfect. give it time. however, i'm sure that every law has been sorely abused by some dick some where.
 
2012-08-21 05:04:17 PM  
Has anyone pointed out yet that WE DON'T HAVE A FREE MARKET.
 
2012-08-21 05:26:11 PM  

pute kisses like a man: the fact that it is being abused is unfortunate. but abuse is not the norm.



No it is the norm. And the more it's abused the less chance someone has of creating a new company that can compete with the old. How can I start my own airline if companies with horrible business plans can keep declaring bankruptcy, wiping their debts and high costs, and start over again with new financing?
 
2012-08-21 05:59:50 PM  
So apparently the main question of the book, according to TFA, is "What kind of society do we want to be? Should we put our trust in free markets, or Big Government?"

Is it really an either/or situation? Do we only have the choice to trust in purely free markets or purely Big Government? I'm having trouble understanding how these are our only options.
 
2012-08-21 06:02:31 PM  

intelligent comment below: pute kisses like a man: the fact that it is being abused is unfortunate. but abuse is not the norm.


No it is the norm. And the more it's abused the less chance someone has of creating a new company that can compete with the old. How can I start my own airline if companies with horrible business plans can keep declaring bankruptcy, wiping their debts and high costs, and start over again with new financing?


you can do what they did. raise a farkload of capital. btw, that would require incorporating, unless you wanted the rich people to be your boss...

they only reason the big airlines can pull these switcheros is because they have pretty deep pockets and/or heavy assets such that their creditors seem to think they'll get paid back, eventually. if the investors or creditors were less secure, then they'd be more aggressive in the bankruptcy stage.

they don't wipe off their debt like magic in ch 11. maybe the pay less, maybe they pay later... likely, the sell off some assets, pay off some creditors, re-finance with others, add security for favorable terms. the only thing where ch 11 becomes very powerful is with certain types of longterm contracts. bankruptcy does allow for some crafty contract modifications and efficient breaches. I assume this is the controversy... but sometimes, you have to trim that crap off. it's either kill the company to keep the contracts, or kill the contracts to keep the company. sucks no matter which choice you make. our society has decided it is more beneficial to keep the company. sorry landlords and unions, looks like you paid off the wrong politicians.

/ my current favorite bankruptcy event: defalcation... beautiful word, wacky consequences.
 
2012-08-21 06:37:17 PM  
Pute: "/my current favorite bankruptcy event: defalcation... beautiful word, wacky consequences."

I thought that word meant that Willard's wife's dancing horse got back-alley spayed for not winning a medal?
 
2012-08-21 07:43:30 PM  

pute kisses like a man: incorporation does not work that way


You keep saying that, but thousands of examples from the last decade alone say otherwise.

pute kisses like a man: you're just mad that the world doesn't fit into your personal theories of vengence.


I'm not mad at all, but I am starting to get a little bored of arguing with idiots.
 
2012-08-21 07:45:03 PM  
Right, have government get out of the way... so that we can have more Love Canals, black Lung, asbestos cancer, lung cancer, mine disasters, big holes in the ground filled with arsenic, PCBs in our water, no forests, child labor, missing limbs, buy everything from the company store, pay rent to the company, slave wages, indentured servitude, etc., etc., etc. Yeah, free markets are great without government intervention... if you're the CEO or investor, sucks for just about everyone else.
 
2012-08-21 07:45:33 PM  

intelligent comment below: It's ironic that Socialist Europe has more free market principles than America. If your company goes bankrupt, you are liquidated. Lets see vulture capitalists and others push for something like that in a "free market"


Yeah, and business bankrutpcy is seen as a moral failure which means you are not to be trusted. Which is exactly why all the best startups of the last few decades did not originate in social democratic countries. That and the onerous labor market rules, the high taxes and the general disdain for entrepreneurs. Your transparently spurious claim falls flat on its face as soon as all the factors except the one you mentioned are into account.

Does the US have a perfect free market?
No, and it shouldn't. Only an idiot, politician or media hack would claim otherwise. Regardless, I, like most Americans, am in favor of an entrepreneural society and not a bureaucratic one. Our unemployment rate today, disastrously high as it is, would not have been out of the ordinary in pre recession Europe. Not to mention their GDP growth is far lower than ours despite almost every European country being below US income levels. While there are exceptions to this rule (i.e. Norway), the general trend is blindingly obvious.
 
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