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(Columbus Free Press)   Making sense out of nothing at all: The Melky Cabrera quandary and the ongoing hypocrisy of Major League Baseball   (sportschump.net) divider line 177
    More: Ironic, Major League Baseball, sports betting  
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2074 clicks; posted to Sports » on 21 Aug 2012 at 9:45 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-21 09:47:23 AM  
I'm pretty sure no one in any organized league has their statistics taken away for using drugs. (at least in America)

/it happens in Olympic events and cycling only
//should they void all the Giants' wins, too?
 
2012-08-21 09:48:59 AM  
This article appears to think the batting title and the silver slugger are the same thing.
 
2012-08-21 09:54:10 AM  
Uh what?

You're seriously going with "I don't blame Melky for wanting an edge. The fault's all with MLB and Bud Selig if hard and fast numbers shake out a certain way."

Really?
 
2012-08-21 09:54:15 AM  

DeWayne Mann: This article appears to think the batting title and the silver slugger are the same thing.


The article started out on whiny peak then swan dived into stupid.
 
2012-08-21 09:56:13 AM  

mikaloyd: DeWayne Mann: This article appears to think the batting title and the silver slugger are the same thing.

The article started out on whiny peak then swan dived into stupid.


Well,the article makes perfect sense if you think Bud Selig actually controls how math work.
 
2012-08-21 09:58:36 AM  

IAmRight: //should they void all the Giants' wins, too?


i dont think they should. the Giants as a team had no idea what melky was doing. so why punish them.
Melky as an individual made the choice and should have his stats (as anyone) stripped for that season if they arer caught. punish him not the team
 
2012-08-21 10:03:02 AM  
This blog sucks.
 
2012-08-21 10:08:17 AM  
Thank Yahweh that all those 300-pound lineman in the NFL are all clean.

I'll support any blogger, columnist, or Congressman taking MLB to task, just as soon as they finish dragging the NFL to the same point MLB has reached in its anti-drug efforts.
 
2012-08-21 10:12:09 AM  

Freakin Rican: IAmRight: //should they void all the Giants' wins, too?

i dont think they should. the Giants as a team had no idea what melky was doing. so why punish them.
Melky as an individual made the choice and should have his stats (as anyone) stripped for that season if they arer caught. punish him not the team


in before no relating to PSU.

Gawd that article was awful. I can't believe the standard is only a 50 game suspension for being caught needle handed. Not even 1/3 the season. Just seams light.
 
2012-08-21 10:19:38 AM  

Freakin Rican: IAmRight: ***snip***
Melky as an individual made the choice and should have his stats (as anyone) stripped for that season if they arer caught. **snip**


I don't necessarily disagree with that solution, but my problem with it is that you are already suspending the player for 1/3ish of a season. If you strip their numbers for the entire season in which they are caught, you are effectively suspending them an entire season (as far as the record books are concerned) plus more if someone is caught with less than 50 games to play.

The question then is that punishment overly harsh. Many would say yes, many would say it's not enough, I just don't know what I think yet.
 
2012-08-21 10:25:33 AM  
Does this mean the NL should have home field advantage taken away for the World Series?
 
2012-08-21 10:27:01 AM  
Melky doesn't have a Silver Slugger. He won't get one since it's based on a vote and not math. Pictured in that article is the ASG MVP trophy.
 
2012-08-21 10:30:05 AM  

thecpt: Gawd that article was awful. I can't believe the standard is only a 50 game suspension for being caught needle handed. Not even 1/3 the season. Just seams light.


It's what was agreed to in the CBA for a first offense. I don't have a problem with it considering how sticky an issue it was. For all the grief MLB gets about the 1994 strike, it's been easily the most stable major sports league in the US since.
 
2012-08-21 10:37:05 AM  
The MLBPA still has the MLB over a barrel and they will not allow the voiding of stats
 
2012-08-21 10:40:08 AM  

The Bestest: It's what was agreed to in the CBA for a first offense. I don't have a problem with it considering how sticky an issue it was. For all the grief MLB gets about the 1994 strike, it's been easily the most stable major sports league in the US since.


Thats so weird to me. You'd think the players would want tougher restrictions to encourage a fair level of play so they don't have to roid and testosterone up to stay competitive. The stability of the MLB is a good point. Thank goodness the NFL pulled through last year, but the laughable NBA management showed through perfectly.
 
2012-08-21 10:40:53 AM  

farbekrieg: The MLBPA still has the MLB over a barrel and they will not allow the voiding of stats


Nor should it. Just because juice was involved doesn't mean those hits didn't happen. Acknowledge it and move on (even asterisk it if you want).
 
2012-08-21 10:43:11 AM  

IAmRight: I'm pretty sure no one in any organized league has their statistics taken away for using drugs. (at least in America)

/it happens in Olympic events and cycling only
//should they void all the Giants' wins, too?


The should be banned from major bowl games for the next four years and have 10 of their scholarships taken away. Oh wait ...
 
2012-08-21 10:43:39 AM  

thecpt: Thats so weird to me. You'd think the players would want tougher restrictions to encourage a fair level of play so they don't have to roid and testosterone up to stay competitive.


I dunno.. I think it's appropriate. Second offense is 100 games and third is bannination.
 
2012-08-21 10:44:17 AM  
I can't decide whom is more retarded; the author for knowing nothing about baseball or the admin who greenlit this load of shiat.
 
2012-08-21 10:52:02 AM  
would have been a good article if he stopped after "I.... don't .... care."
 
2012-08-21 10:59:30 AM  

KingKauff: Does this mean the NL should have home field advantage taken away for the World Series?


If the American League team that makes the World Series had a better regular season record than the NL Team then yes.

Oh wait, that makes sense. We probably shouldn't go with it.
 
2012-08-21 10:59:41 AM  
2 serious questions for folks in this thread:

1. Do you think false positives ever happen with these tests?

2. Do you think every true positive player was purposely attempting to cheat?
 
2012-08-21 11:05:30 AM  

KingKauff: Does this mean the NL should have home field advantage taken away for the World Series?


They should.

Not because Melky was juicing, but because basing that off an exhibition game is possibly the dumbest goddamn idea in the history of competitive sports.
 
2012-08-21 11:05:38 AM  

DeWayne Mann: 2 serious questions for folks in this thread:

1. Do you think false positives ever happen with these tests?


Sure.. but that's why there are appeals and B samples, no?

2. Do you think every true positive player was purposely attempting to cheat?

Every? No. As lame an excuse as it is, "I didn't know what was in it" DOES happen.
Was Melky? Yep.
 
2012-08-21 11:05:54 AM  
ebid.s3.amazonaws.com
 
2012-08-21 11:12:18 AM  

DeWayne Mann: 2 serious questions for folks in this thread:

1. Do you think false positives ever happen with these tests?

2. Do you think every true positive player was purposely attempting to cheat?


1. Undoubtedly. They happen with everything. But if a test is positive and the player appeals, the next step could be immediately administer 2 (or however many) more tests until the one side is shown to be the only real statistical occurrence.

2. Do you mean like a petitte case? Its a banned substance so you might need the court charade to figure it out, unfortunately.
 
2012-08-21 11:17:10 AM  

DeWayne Mann: 2 serious questions for folks in this thread:

1. Do you think false positives ever happen with these tests?

2. Do you think every true positive player was purposely attempting to cheat?


false positives happen, but thats why you can retest and appeal, i mean look what happened with braun last year.

i do think that everyone who is caught was trying to cheat, the money is just too big, even if it gives you just a slight edge, in baseball that extra 5% can make all the difference. You are starting with the highest percentile as far as atheletes to begin with and to move from 99.0% to 99.495% is a massive statistical jump.

look at melky as an example, from a player going through circling the drain on the way out of the league to All Star with some mvp consideration. The amount of money between utilty infielder to starter, starter to all star, and all star to one of the gods is the game are all significant. Yes they might be cutting off a few years at the end of their lives but its for considerable cash now to set up not just themselves but their kids for life.

/why else take the health risk?
 
2012-08-21 11:19:41 AM  

DeWayne Mann: 2 serious questions for folks in this thread:

1. Do you think false positives ever happen with these tests?

I suppose it's possible. Not much is infallible.

2. Do you think every true positive player was purposely attempting to cheat?


No. Idiots happen. Even among a population where they know in advance that not knowing what is in every single morsel they ingest could cost them millions of dollars.


The whole thing is a joke. I think I posted it in the wrong place earlier but I believe the percentage of testing that takes place in the offseason is like 3%. MLB doesn't have a drug testing policy - they have a directed, 'please juice as much as possible in the offseason' policy.
 
2012-08-21 11:29:14 AM  
Man, right after I posted, I was like "I really should've said something like 'Please give more than just a Yes or a No,'" but you guys didn't do that anyway so that makes me happy.

I'll have a couple of followup questions later...just waiting for more people to answer the first two.
 
2012-08-21 11:32:29 AM  

Wellon Dowd: Thank Yahweh that all those 300-pound lineman in the NFL are all clean.

I'll support any blogger, columnist, or Congressman taking MLB to task, just as soon as they finish dragging the NFL to the same point MLB has reached in its anti-drug efforts.


The NFL has been way more proactive than the MLB, and, partly because of it, people who violate can get their careers back on track without much problem. As a percentage of games, they miss slightly less(25% of the season, compared to 30% for MLB). If you want to biatch about taking a league to task, how about the NBA? You get a measly 10 game penalty for a positive steroid test in the NBA(12% of a season), and the testing policy is very weak.
 
2012-08-21 11:36:36 AM  

Freakin Rican: IAmRight: //should they void all the Giants' wins, too?

i dont think they should. the Giants as a team had no idea what melky was doing. so why punish them.
Melky as an individual made the choice and should have his stats (as anyone) stripped for that season if they arer caught. punish him not the team


I think the team should be penalized as well but not take away all wins that the player participated in. Something like 3 games for 1st offense, 10 for second and 25 for third. Let's put the onus on the teams to not field roided up players and maybe they'll beef up their own internal testing. Afterall, they benefited from fielding a player that was roided up. How many wins did Melky get them this year? He's got 159 hits for them, 60 RBIs and scored 84 runs. How many games were decided by his timely hitting?

The way it is now, a team can only benefit from roided up players as they do not have to pay the play during the suspension while the benefit for playing a roided up player remain on the books.
 
2012-08-21 11:37:19 AM  

roc6783: Freakin Rican: IAmRight: ***snip***
Melky as an individual made the choice and should have his stats (as anyone) stripped for that season if they arer caught. **snip**

I don't necessarily disagree with that solution, but my problem with it is that you are already suspending the player for 1/3ish of a season. If you strip their numbers for the entire season in which they are caught, you are effectively suspending them an entire season (as far as the record books are concerned) plus more if someone is caught with less than 50 games to play.

The question then is that punishment overly harsh. Many would say yes, many would say it's not enough, I just don't know what I think yet.


not harsh at all. you do something illegal then you pay the price. your numbers are up because of roids. then they should be stripped.

as to 50 games being light. i think so. at this point it should be a full season. you get caught half way through then you dont play till the sametime next year. you lose 162 games.
 
2012-08-21 11:38:09 AM  

Wellon Dowd: Thank Yahweh that all those 300-pound lineman in the NFL are all clean.

I'll support any blogger, columnist, or Congressman taking MLB to task, just as soon as they finish dragging the NFL to the same point MLB has reached in its anti-drug efforts.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/sports/football/nfl-says-drug-testi n g-will-be-rigorous-and-frequent.html

From my reading of the two policies the NFL plan is already much more rigorous than MLB and getting tons tougher. For starters there's no limits to in-season testing and they can be tested up to six times offseason. MOST MLB players are not tested offseason AT ALL. At this point It's very possible to play your entire major league career without a single offseason test. Which of course, is a joke.
 
2012-08-21 11:39:49 AM  
And screw taking away wins. It's idiotic. It's stupid in college and it's stupid in the pros. What happened, happened. Penalize the player - you don't penalize the fan.
 
2012-08-21 11:40:33 AM  

bhcompy: The NFL has been way more proactive than the MLB, and, partly because of it, people who violate can get their careers back on track without much problem


NFL has some weird cases though. Deuce McCallister comes to mind when he got (i think) a six game ban for diuretics which the explanation at the time was for weight loss. WTF? RLY? Why did you need to take that? Go run tubby. There's plenty of cases of actual steroids with players, but some banned substances perplex me.
 
2012-08-21 11:40:58 AM  
The saddest thing about doping is that for every Cabrerra, you have 10 guys who juice and cannot be caught. These new PEDs can be taken in the offseason for conditioning and are out of the system before spring training. Drug tests are really IQ tests now. Even if they do take Melky's stats away, there are plenty of guys who won't ever be caught. The stats for MLB are already polluted.
 
2012-08-21 11:42:22 AM  

DeWayne Mann: 2 serious questions for folks in this thread:

1. Do you think false positives ever happen with these tests?

2. Do you think every true positive player was purposely attempting to cheat?


1) Sure, but would a false positive make it all the way through the appeals process? I doubt it.
2) Damn near every one, yes. As for the rare exceptions who honestly didn't know... fark 'em. They're paid 6 figures a year at the very least to do their job, and part of their job is to know what they're putting into their bodies; if they abdicate this responsibility, they have earned whatever punishment they receive.
 
2012-08-21 11:43:15 AM  

ddam: Freakin Rican: IAmRight: //should they void all the Giants' wins, too?

i dont think they should. the Giants as a team had no idea what melky was doing. so why punish them.
Melky as an individual made the choice and should have his stats (as anyone) stripped for that season if they arer caught. punish him not the team

I think the team should be penalized as well but not take away all wins that the player participated in. Something like 3 games for 1st offense, 10 for second and 25 for third. Let's put the onus on the teams to not field roided up players and maybe they'll beef up their own internal testing. Afterall, they benefited from fielding a player that was roided up. How many wins did Melky get them this year? He's got 159 hits for them, 60 RBIs and scored 84 runs. How many games were decided by his timely hitting?

The way it is now, a team can only benefit from roided up players as they do not have to pay the play during the suspension while the benefit for playing a roided up player remain on the books.


It sounds like a reasonable solution, but its completely impractical. Gonna bse it on WAR? if so, which WAR? fangraphs or BBR?

This isn't college, where the teams are (or should be) able to keep a strenuously watchful eye and exert significantly more control over the lives of the players. the only feasible and reasonable team punishment is perhaps loss of a draft pick or two.
 
2012-08-21 11:44:08 AM  

ddam: Freakin Rican: IAmRight: //should they void all the Giants' wins, too?

i dont think they should. the Giants as a team had no idea what melky was doing. so why punish them.
Melky as an individual made the choice and should have his stats (as anyone) stripped for that season if they arer caught. punish him not the team

I think the team should be penalized as well but not take away all wins that the player participated in. Something like 3 games for 1st offense, 10 for second and 25 for third. Let's put the onus on the teams to not field roided up players and maybe they'll beef up their own internal testing. Afterall, they benefited from fielding a player that was roided up. How many wins did Melky get them this year? He's got 159 hits for them, 60 RBIs and scored 84 runs. How many games were decided by his timely hitting?

The way it is now, a team can only benefit from roided up players as they do not have to pay the play during the suspension while the benefit for playing a roided up player remain on the books.


if WAR is to be believe or oWar or whatever, about 5.
 
2012-08-21 11:46:43 AM  

Levarien: The saddest thing about doping is that for every Cabrerra, you have 10 guys who juice and cannot be caught. These new PEDs can be taken in the offseason for conditioning and are out of the system before spring training. Drug tests are really IQ tests now. Even if they do take Melky's stats away, there are plenty of guys who won't ever be caught. The stats for MLB are already polluted.


Are the stats from when the whole league was on greenies polluted too?
 
2012-08-21 11:49:40 AM  

JohnBigBootay: And screw taking away wins. It's idiotic. It's stupid in college and it's stupid in the pros. What happened, happened. Penalize the player - you don't penalize the fan.


What about the fans of the other teams in the league? Is it fair to them to keep those wins that were tainted by roided up players on the books? Penalize the players the most but team must have some penalties directly to the standings otherwise they just call up the next player from minors and move on. Sure, there might be a drop in production but that's not enough.

If the teams do not get penalized in the standings there is no incentive to make sure they run a clean organization. As professional athletes their whole pay is based on their performance thus they have an incentive to roid up in order to chase those big contracts and big signing bonuses.
 
2012-08-21 11:50:12 AM  

DeWayne Mann: 2 serious questions for folks in this thread:

1. Do you think false positives ever happen with these tests?

2. Do you think every true positive player was purposely attempting to cheat?


1. Yes. Chemistry may work exactly the same 100% of the time, but if you add up the minute statistical variances in every step of the chain from manufacturing of the testing agents through the doctor that verifies the result, you come up with a greater than 0% chance that something goes wrong. Admittedly, it is a very small chance, but with the thousands of tests performed throughout the entire world on a daily basis, a mistake will be made somewhere.
That's what I don't understand about the Braun situation and people who want to run him out of the sport on a rail. He passed every random regular season test just fine, but the one test he knew was coming (every player is tested at the beginning of the postseason) is the one he fails? I am not saying he didn't do it, just that the circumstances under which he failed make no sense.


2. Someone has to know that the player is taking a banned substance at some point. Now there have been cases where a player took a banned substance, but didn't realize that it was banned or was told it wasn't banned by someone that has a job description that involves knowing which substances are banned. But instances where a player says an associate gave them something and told them it was flax seed oil and, all of a sudden, they start hitting home runs like never before? The player knows they are cheating, but they don't ask questions because of the money that great new supplement will get them on their next contract.
 
2012-08-21 11:52:14 AM  

ddam: JohnBigBootay: And screw taking away wins. It's idiotic. It's stupid in college and it's stupid in the pros. What happened, happened. Penalize the player - you don't penalize the fan.

What about the fans of the other teams in the league? Is it fair to them to keep those wins that were tainted by roided up players on the books? Penalize the players the most but team must have some penalties directly to the standings otherwise they just call up the next player from minors and move on. Sure, there might be a drop in production but that's not enough.

If the teams do not get penalized in the standings there is no incentive to make sure they run a clean organization. As professional athletes their whole pay is based on their performance thus they have an incentive to roid up in order to chase those big contracts and big signing bonuses.


ok. explain exactly how that would be done. do the Royals lose games from last year? why or why not? how do we know he wasn't on the juice then? what about players with negative WAR? do their teams get more wins, given that the player actually hurt the team?
 
2012-08-21 11:53:08 AM  

thecpt: bhcompy: The NFL has been way more proactive than the MLB, and, partly because of it, people who violate can get their careers back on track without much problem

NFL has some weird cases though. Deuce McCallister comes to mind when he got (i think) a six game ban for diuretics which the explanation at the time was for weight loss. WTF? RLY? Why did you need to take that? Go run tubby. There's plenty of cases of actual steroids with players, but some banned substances perplex me.


The NFL has a strange weight policy. From what I understand based off information related to the Starcaps scandal, when you start the season you have a goal weight and you must stay at that goal weight, any move up or down costs you significant money. Players will put on muscle during a season of constant practices and workouts and they will also have trouble doing only weight loss exercises as they need to keep their muscle mass up because of the sport. Diuretics allow them to drop a few pounds temporarily to make that goal weight at weigh-in. Has nothing to do with being fat and everything to do with money.
 
2012-08-21 11:55:06 AM  
Your blog sucks.
 
2012-08-21 11:56:47 AM  

bhcompy: The NFL has a strange weight policy. From what I understand based off information related to the Starcaps scandal, when you start the season you have a goal weight and you must stay at that goal weight, any move up or down costs you significant money.


I don't think it's an NFL policy so much as guys have it written into their contracts so the team doesn't have to pay them if they get fat and lazy. But the rest is accurate - it was about fines and not having to pay them (and at $7500-$10,000/day or practice or whatever it was, I don't blame 'em).
 
2012-08-21 11:56:50 AM  

jackiepaper: ddam: JohnBigBootay: And screw taking away wins. It's idiotic. It's stupid in college and it's stupid in the pros. What happened, happened. Penalize the player - you don't penalize the fan.

What about the fans of the other teams in the league? Is it fair to them to keep those wins that were tainted by roided up players on the books? Penalize the players the most but team must have some penalties directly to the standings otherwise they just call up the next player from minors and move on. Sure, there might be a drop in production but that's not enough.

If the teams do not get penalized in the standings there is no incentive to make sure they run a clean organization. As professional athletes their whole pay is based on their performance thus they have an incentive to roid up in order to chase those big contracts and big signing bonuses.

ok. explain exactly how that would be done. do the Royals lose games from last year? why or why not? how do we know he wasn't on the juice then? what about players with negative WAR? do their teams get more wins, given that the player actually hurt the team?


Penalty is assessed at the time of a failed test if the player chooses not to appeal and after appeal if it is filed. Appeals must be filed within 3 days.

Wins are taken away in the standings and the team just has less than 162 games played at the end of the season. Penalties are standardized: 3 games for first player from the team caught, 5 games for the second instance, 7 for third and so on.
 
2012-08-21 11:57:52 AM  

IAmRight: bhcompy: The NFL has a strange weight policy. From what I understand based off information related to the Starcaps scandal, when you start the season you have a goal weight and you must stay at that goal weight, any move up or down costs you significant money.

I don't think it's an NFL policy so much as guys have it written into their contracts so the team doesn't have to pay them if they get fat and lazy. But the rest is accurate - it was about fines and not having to pay them (and at $7500-$10,000/day or practice or whatever it was, I don't blame 'em).


Indeed, I meant to clarify that it is something that varies per individual based on their contract, but it seems to be SOP to be in the contract.
 
2012-08-21 12:00:08 PM  
I'm just gonna flat say now, any talk of penalizing teams (in terms of taking away wins and such; I have no problem with, say, fining the team $X, and even then -only- if there's a case of multiple juicers on the same team) is crazy talk.
 
2012-08-21 12:01:52 PM  
TFA says something has to be done by Selig before Bonds and Clemens become HOF eligible. Apparently he missed the news that Selig is going to retire and dump this turdbucket all over the next commish instead of dealing with it himself, just like every other issue he's put off over the years until it either blew up or fixed itself.

Rumors of steroids in the 80s? Do nothing until Canseco's book and Congress gets involved in 2005.
Don't like player salaries when you own the Brewers? Get involved with collusion in the 80s and do nothing about it until the players strike in 1994.

That doesn't even count the stuff that he's pulled that wasn't actually a solution to a problem, like interleague play, ASG home field advantage, or the "World Baseball Classic". Or the outright criminal crap like the Loria/Henry Expos/Marlins/Red Sox dance and the Dodgers-McCourt/Mets-Wilpon TV contract bullcrap. Or the money grabs, like threatening to move/contract teams that don't get new stadiums (after adding four expansion teams during his tenure), changing the playoff schedule to hurt the teams and help the broadcasters, or the second wildcard crap this year.

So you're expecting Bud Selig to come up with a nuanced and capable decision in regards to Melky Cabrera being an MVP candidate in a year he's been using steroids. I'm sure that will happen, just like the nuanced and capable decisions Bud has made on the All Star Game in 2002, Game 5 of the 2008 World Series, and the Armando Gallaraga perfect game.
 
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