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(CBC)   70 years ago today, 5,000 Canadian soldiers took part in the raid of Dieppe, France, in what many call a precursor to the Normandy invasion   (cbc.ca) divider line 141
    More: Hero, Dieppe, Normandy, Canadians, Canadian soldiers, Canadian Air Force, Southern England, United States Department of Veterans Affairs, United States Navy ships  
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5092 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Aug 2012 at 4:48 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-19 01:09:31 PM
And the rest of us call it a clusterfark.
 
2012-08-19 01:37:51 PM
Heard an interesting interview on the CBC the other day. Apparently there was a real reason behind the Dieppe raid that's been kept hidden from the public since that time.

For extra Fark bonus points it involves Ian Fleming.

During the Second World War, Ian Fleming - the legendary author of the James Bond spy series novels - acted as a personal assistant to Britain's head of naval intelligence, Admiral John Godfrey.

He, along with other naval intelligence specialists, created the No. 30 Commando or the 30 Assault Unit (30AU) - a team of special commandos that were put into the Dieppe operation under the unit name No. 40 Royal Marine Commando.

According to the newly-discovered files, while Fleming and the 30 AU were looking to hit various German vessels that were in Dieppe's harbour, their primary target was the German headquarters, located at Hotel Moderne near the main harbour in Dieppe.


They were after Enigma.

They didn't get it that time but there actually was a valid reason for the assault. Why they never provided the air cover necessary to make it work is the real question.

Still a bloody tragedy, just saying.

Link
 
2012-08-19 02:40:20 PM

quatchi: They were after Enigma.


With the advantage of being able to look back through the years, that makes perfect sense & would have been one hell of a coup if they pulled it off. One wonders just how the war would have changed had they been successful.

Hopefully some of the survivors/families hear about this & find out that the raid wasn't the complete cluster fark that it appeared to be.

Awfully farking close though, what a horrid mess.
 
2012-08-19 02:45:55 PM
The british sacrificed a lot of us Canadians for that.

/Sometimes I wonder if hereditary military officership based on how much money one's family has is really the ideal way to run one's military.
//lousy brits.
 
2012-08-19 02:47:40 PM
Hopefully some of the survivors/families hear about this & find out that the raid wasn't the complete cluster fark that it appeared to be.

They played a clip of the documentary based on this new information in which they sat a group of Dieppe survivors down and explained exactly why Dieppe was potentially so important and there was real emotion in their voices as they thanked the doc guys for telling them the story.

The full doc "Dieppe Uncovered" is gonna be on the History Channel tonight at 9 pm, apparently.

Gonna hafta PVR that sucka, methinks.
 
2012-08-19 03:13:30 PM

MadSkillz: /Sometimes I wonder if hereditary military officership based on how much money one's family has is really the ideal way to run one's military.
//lousy brits.


Sometimes they got to wear shorts.
 
2012-08-19 04:05:04 PM

Recoil Therapy: quatchi: They were after Enigma.

With the advantage of being able to look back through the years, that makes perfect sense & would have been one hell of a coup if they pulled it off. One wonders just how the war would have changed had they been successful.


The Germans woulda been Ultra farked?
 
2012-08-19 04:52:02 PM

quatchi: Heard an interesting interview on the CBC the other day. Apparently there was a real reason behind the Dieppe raid that's been kept hidden from the public since that time.

For extra Fark bonus points it involves Ian Fleming.

During the Second World War, Ian Fleming - the legendary author of the James Bond spy series novels - acted as a personal assistant to Britain's head of naval intelligence, Admiral John Godfrey.

He, along with other naval intelligence specialists, created the No. 30 Commando or the 30 Assault Unit (30AU) - a team of special commandos that were put into the Dieppe operation under the unit name No. 40 Royal Marine Commando.

According to the newly-discovered files, while Fleming and the 30 AU were looking to hit various German vessels that were in Dieppe's harbour, their primary target was the German headquarters, located at Hotel Moderne near the main harbour in Dieppe.

They were after Enigma.

They didn't get it that time but there actually was a valid reason for the assault. Why they never provided the air cover necessary to make it work is the real question.

Still a bloody tragedy, just saying.

Link


Your grasp of history is coated in butter. They already had Enigma. They had the machine, they had the codes.
 
2012-08-19 04:52:06 PM
I don't care what New Zealand says. You're alright, Canada.
 
2012-08-19 04:53:55 PM

violentsalvation: And the rest of us call it a clusterfark.



Done in one. Ill equipped and ill advised was the raid on Dieppe.
 
2012-08-19 04:55:46 PM

quatchi: Heard an interesting interview on the CBC the other day. Apparently there was a real reason behind the Dieppe raid that's been kept hidden from the public since that time.

For extra Fark bonus points it involves Ian Fleming.

During the Second World War, Ian Fleming - the legendary author of the James Bond spy series novels - acted as a personal assistant to Britain's head of naval intelligence, Admiral John Godfrey.

He, along with other naval intelligence specialists, created the No. 30 Commando or the 30 Assault Unit (30AU) - a team of special commandos that were put into the Dieppe operation under the unit name No. 40 Royal Marine Commando.

According to the newly-discovered files, while Fleming and the 30 AU were looking to hit various German vessels that were in Dieppe's harbour, their primary target was the German headquarters, located at Hotel Moderne near the main harbour in Dieppe.

They were after Enigma.

They didn't get it that time but there actually was a valid reason for the assault. Why they never provided the air cover necessary to make it work is the real question.

Still a bloody tragedy, just saying.

Link


Great read. It actually answers the question (for me anyway) of why the hell they landed on the beach in the first place. I remember learning about it in highschool and even then I just couldn't figure out the strategy behind the raid. Where they just supposed to hold the beachhead indefinitely against the whole German army in occupied Europe? The allies weren't anywhere ready for a landing in force by that point, so the whole Dieppe thing just seemed like a giant waste to me.

My history actually teacher called me unpatriotic for saying so.
 
2012-08-19 04:57:18 PM
This is probably the most interesting history blog on the internet - http://ww2today.com/. Some of the stuff it mentions is alternately harrowing, uplifting and depressing. Add this to your feeds and count your blessings you are alive today not 70 years ago.
 
2012-08-19 04:57:52 PM
The British Army in WWII did not know how to fight or how to plan for an offensive but they were damned good at making up lies to cover up their failures. Dieppe was another of those failures with a big lie on top of it. The entire event was a total fark up. The tanks could not even get off the beaches, could not get over the sea walls if they could have handled the beach itself. The only thing that they learned was that they needed to get Americans in on the planning for D-Day.
 
2012-08-19 05:00:23 PM
Canuck.. Canuck

t.fireden.net

Who's there?
 
2012-08-19 05:00:27 PM
musingsonmatters.files.wordpress.comEveryone knows that Canada never had an army!
 
2012-08-19 05:05:21 PM
Mountbatten was an idiot and the raid was a disaster.
 
2012-08-19 05:10:00 PM
upload.wikimedia.org
Everyone remembers Lord Mountbatten but nobody remembers Canada.
 
2012-08-19 05:14:49 PM
Oh dear me. The Canadians want to discuss Mountbatten again?
farm3.staticflickr.com
 
2012-08-19 05:16:31 PM

miss diminutive:
My history actually teacher called me unpatriotic for saying so.


Well, patriots die for their country, no questions asked--right? Wasn't that the definition of patriot at one point?

Having said that--fark that history teacher. Teachers should not bully students, and questions should be asked--that's how we learn.
 
2012-08-19 05:18:45 PM
Rangers lead the way....into WW2.

Sua Sponte.
 
2012-08-19 05:19:12 PM

chuckufarlie: quatchi: Heard an interesting interview on the CBC the other day. Apparently there was a real reason behind the Dieppe raid that's been kept hidden from the public since that time.

For extra Fark bonus points it involves Ian Fleming.

During the Second World War, Ian Fleming - the legendary author of the James Bond spy series novels - acted as a personal assistant to Britain's head of naval intelligence, Admiral John Godfrey.

He, along with other naval intelligence specialists, created the No. 30 Commando or the 30 Assault Unit (30AU) - a team of special commandos that were put into the Dieppe operation under the unit name No. 40 Royal Marine Commando.

According to the newly-discovered files, while Fleming and the 30 AU were looking to hit various German vessels that were in Dieppe's harbour, their primary target was the German headquarters, located at Hotel Moderne near the main harbour in Dieppe.

They were after Enigma.

They didn't get it that time but there actually was a valid reason for the assault. Why they never provided the air cover necessary to make it work is the real question.

Still a bloody tragedy, just saying.

Link

Your grasp of history is coated in butter. They already had Enigma. They had the machine, they had the codes.


This was a 4th generation Enigma, according to the article i read. Some months later the allied code breakers cracked it, but at the time of the Dieppe raid they had not
 
2012-08-19 05:23:18 PM

ussyorktown: Everyone remembers Lord Mountbatten but nobody remembers Canada.


The Irish blew him up for ya
 
2012-08-19 05:27:19 PM
At one time Canada was so warlike, they put the USA to shame.

These days they seem even more chickenshirted than we are, and that's pretty bad.
 
2012-08-19 05:27:39 PM

quatchi: Heard an interesting interview on the CBC the other day. Apparently there was a real reason behind the Dieppe raid that's been kept hidden from the public since that time.


There were a number of reasons for the Dieppe Raid and a number of reasons that it was such a miserable failure.
The biggest reason that it was pushed through was just to make it look like the British were doing something while the Soviets were fighting in the East. In addition it was a demonstration that the West could not invade France. Then there are the reasons it was original planned was a need to get troops experience and to gather intelligence while drawing more German resources to the West there was also the hope that they could draw the Luftwaffe into a battle where they decimate their fighter strength to make Bomber Command's life easier. Of course between the initial planning for Operation Rutter the plan was gutted when arriving at Operation Jubilee, removing most of the air support (including basically all the heavy bombers) and much of the naval support (including all the battleships) to avoid potential losses. Then you have intelligence and other issues and it becomes a horrible mess.

MadSkillz: The british sacrificed a lot of us Canadians for that.

/Sometimes I wonder if hereditary military officership based on how much money one's family has is really the ideal way to run one's military.
//lousy brits.


Of course it was Canadian command that pushed for Canadian troops to be on the mission. If they had sat back it almost certainly would have been a British division in the place of 2nd Canadian Infantry Division taking the brunt of it. But the Canadian government wanted to be able to say they got troops into the fight before the Americans (who were preparing for Operation Torch) and they did, unforunately most of them didn't make it back any time soon.

Gergesa: Mountbatten was an idiot and the raid was a disaster.


In this instant, yes, but he was a pretty good leader in India when he had people in place to keep him from implementing his terrible ideas.

As for the idea that this was a "learning experience" for Torch and D-day, that is not a justification because most of the lessons supposedly learnt at Dieppe were well known and part of the original plan (especially proper air and naval support) and being used by both sides in the Pacific. Probably the biggest thing to come out of it was pressure to create the Funnies, if Dieppewas even critical in that decision.
 
2012-08-19 05:31:43 PM

chuckufarlie: The British Army in WWII did not know how to fight or how to plan for an offensive but they were damned good at making up lies to cover up their failures. Dieppe was another of those failures with a big lie on top of it. The entire event was a total fark up. The tanks could not even get off the beaches, could not get over the sea walls if they could have handled the beach itself. The only thing that they learned was that they needed to get Americans in on the planning for D-Day.


Of course the stupid British needed the Americans to plan D-Day.

D-Day, and in particular the American part, was a total farkup as well. They were assuming the Germans hadn't reinforced the place, but Rommel had. But yeah, you decided to put that on the Americans.
 
2012-08-19 05:32:14 PM
Mountbatten as viceroy in India was a complete disaster.
 
2012-08-19 05:33:14 PM

Richard Saunders: Recoil Therapy: quatchi: They were after Enigma.

With the advantage of being able to look back through the years, that makes perfect sense & would have been one hell of a coup if they pulled it off. One wonders just how the war would have changed had they been successful.

The Germans woulda been Ultra farked?


Well played.

[bunnygolfclap]

...carrier lost.
 
2012-08-19 05:34:53 PM

El Supe: chuckufarlie: quatchi: Heard an interesting interview on the CBC the other day. Apparently there was a real reason behind the Dieppe raid that's been kept hidden from the public since that time.

For extra Fark bonus points it involves Ian Fleming.

During the Second World War, Ian Fleming - the legendary author of the James Bond spy series novels - acted as a personal assistant to Britain's head of naval intelligence, Admiral John Godfrey.

He, along with other naval intelligence specialists, created the No. 30 Commando or the 30 Assault Unit (30AU) - a team of special commandos that were put into the Dieppe operation under the unit name No. 40 Royal Marine Commando.

According to the newly-discovered files, while Fleming and the 30 AU were looking to hit various German vessels that were in Dieppe's harbour, their primary target was the German headquarters, located at Hotel Moderne near the main harbour in Dieppe.

They were after Enigma.

They didn't get it that time but there actually was a valid reason for the assault. Why they never provided the air cover necessary to make it work is the real question.

Still a bloody tragedy, just saying.

Link

Your grasp of history is coated in butter. They already had Enigma. They had the machine, they had the codes.

This was a 4th generation Enigma, according to the article i read. Some months later the allied code breakers cracked it, but at the time of the Dieppe raid they had not


To be accurate - the Brits never broke any of the Enigma codes. They were given a machine by the Poles and they got the codes from a sub, a weather ship and a weather station.

The idea that they would send all of those troops into Dieppe in order to steal the codes is pure nonsense. The Germans were going to notice that they were missing. You can sink a weather ship, you can hide the truth about capturing a sub at sea but how do you destroy a port so much that nobody would notice that the Engima machine/codes were missing? The one intelligent thing the Brits did do was to do everything to protect the fact that they had the machine. Raiding a port to get at the machine/code would have been stupid.

How much time was it going to take to find out where the machines and codes were located once they got to Dieppe? i am pretty sure that the Germans did not have a big sign that said - ENIGMA IS IN HERE.

The idea that some brilliant Brits BROKE the code is just another example of stretching the truth beyond belief.
 
2012-08-19 05:35:39 PM
What a disaster. The British navy wouldn't supply any ships larger than a destroyer so they only smaller caliber guns for arty support. The British air force hoped to draw the draw the Luftwaffe into a giant dogfight and so sent mostly fighters, ineffective against the pill boxes. Then they dropped the infantry off first, without tanks. And the entire raid had been compromised weeks in advance, the Germans knew they were coming and had sent extra armor and more troops to the area.

And the worst thing of all was that the Canadian commander was directing the attack from a boat way offshore and had no clue what was going on. He was a hard charger and when the initial infantry attack failed he figured that all he needed to do was to send in more men to succeed, instead of withdrawing. So they landed more men to be slaughtered. Talk about a waste of fine infantry, this was it.
 
2012-08-19 05:35:52 PM
What good would stealing Engima be if the Germans knew that the Canacks stole it for the allies? Then the'd merely shiatcan it and go to version 5.0
I couldn't get Ian Fleming's comment but I did get his girlfriend.
www.007james.com
 
2012-08-19 05:39:25 PM

olddinosaur: At one time Canada was so warlike, they put the USA to shame.

These days they seem even more chickenshirted than we are, and that's pretty bad.


You do know that Dieppe was the first usage of the US Army Rangers right? Also, Weenerser had it right. It was a clusterfark.
 
2012-08-19 05:40:35 PM

olddinosaur: At one time Canada was so warlike, they put the USA to shame.

These days they seem even more chickenshirted than we are, and that's pretty bad.


No, we will always stand and defend our friends and allies when attacked.
 
2012-08-19 05:42:24 PM
Also, I have no idea what a Weenerser is. o.o That's a serious typo, meant to say done in one basically. The Boobies says it all, it was a massive clusterfark and a tragic senseless loss of life.
 
2012-08-19 05:44:18 PM

spawn73: chuckufarlie: The British Army in WWII did not know how to fight or how to plan for an offensive but they were damned good at making up lies to cover up their failures. Dieppe was another of those failures with a big lie on top of it. The entire event was a total fark up. The tanks could not even get off the beaches, could not get over the sea walls if they could have handled the beach itself. The only thing that they learned was that they needed to get Americans in on the planning for D-Day.

Of course the stupid British needed the Americans to plan D-Day.

D-Day, and in particular the American part, was a total farkup as well. They were assuming the Germans hadn't reinforced the place, but Rommel had. But yeah, you decided to put that on the Americans.


There is nothing wrong with your statement that reading a few books couldn't solve. The American landings were not a fark up. I assume that you are referring to Omaha because Utah was a walk over. The landing at Utah was necessary to set the troops up to capture Cherbourg. Omaha was needed because the planners did not want a big gap between the Brits and the US troops, The planners knew that Omaha was going to be rough but the planners had nothing to do with the mess that developed. Two things screwed up the landing at Omaha - ONE - the Air Force did not drop their bombs where they were supposed to. TWO - the DD tanks that were supposed to land at Omaha were mostly sitting on the bottom of the ocean.

The Air Force was supposed to destroy some of the German emplacements AND they were supposed to create bomb craters on the beach for the troops to use for leap frogging to the sea wall.

There were FIVE landing beaches in the Normandy landings and FOUR of them worked pretty much to plan. That fifth one did work itself out. If that is your idea of things going wrong, maybe those books will not help you.
 
2012-08-19 05:45:34 PM

olddinosaur: At one time Canada was so warlike, they put the USA to shame..


When was that?
 
2012-08-19 05:47:43 PM
Link

They were looking for some other technology.

I don't think the US Rangers had much effect. I think they were supposed to be observers.

/could be wrong
 
2012-08-19 05:50:06 PM
The raid was to appease Stalin and the Russians because they felt that the British and the Americans were not doing anything against the Nazis --- end of story
 
2012-08-19 05:50:44 PM

Sudlow: Link

They were looking for some other technology.

I don't think the US Rangers had much effect. I think they were supposed to be observers.

/could be wrong


I'd say you are right. The Rangers went along to make it an ALLIED effort. There were not enough of them to make any real difference.
 
2012-08-19 05:57:49 PM

miss diminutive: My history actually teacher called me unpatriotic for saying so.


I've been advised today that anything short of hero worship for anyone who has ever worn a uniform is unpatriotic.
 
2012-08-19 05:59:55 PM

chuckufarlie: olddinosaur: At one time Canada was so warlike, they put the USA to shame..

When was that?


My high school teachers recalled trips to Canada where Canadian youth expressed jealousy that they didn't get to fight in Viet Nam.
 
2012-08-19 06:01:18 PM
Good read if you get the chance

ecx.images-amazon.com 

Green Beach from 1975
 
2012-08-19 06:05:05 PM

chuckufarlie: Sudlow: Link

They were looking for some other technology.

I don't think the US Rangers had much effect. I think they were supposed to be observers.

/could be wrong

I'd say you are right. The Rangers went along to make it an ALLIED effort. There were not enough of them to make any real difference.


The first clusterfark of a mission given to Bat boys in WWII, sadly, not the last.

COUGHCisternaCOUGH....COUGH

www.suasponte.com

RLTW
 
2012-08-19 06:08:51 PM

SharkTrager: miss diminutive: My history actually teacher called me unpatriotic for saying so.

I've been advised today that anything short of hero worship for anyone who has ever worn a uniform is unpatriotic.


You do not need to worship them but you should respect them and understand the sacrifices they make for you.
 
2012-08-19 06:09:07 PM

SharkTrager: chuckufarlie: olddinosaur: At one time Canada was so warlike, they put the USA to shame..

When was that?

My high school teachers recalled trips to Canada where Canadian youth expressed jealousy that they didn't get to fight in Viet Nam.


soo... hearsay within hearsay. gotcha.
 
2012-08-19 06:09:08 PM

SharkTrager: chuckufarlie: olddinosaur: At one time Canada was so warlike, they put the USA to shame..

When was that?

My high school teachers recalled trips to Canada where Canadian youth expressed jealousy that they didn't get to fight in Viet Nam.


My high school was full of draft dodgers' children. Funny, maybe because I live in BC.
 
2012-08-19 06:09:32 PM
Did we really have to liberate Normandy?

Couldnt we have waited until the Nazi's killed off over half the people first?

/fark Normandy
 
2012-08-19 06:11:01 PM

chuckufarlie: SharkTrager: miss diminutive: My history actually teacher called me unpatriotic for saying so.

I've been advised today that anything short of hero worship for anyone who has ever worn a uniform is unpatriotic.

You do not need to worship them but you should respect them and understand the sacrifices they make for you.


May I add, this was fully volunteer in Canada. We were not attacked.
 
2012-08-19 06:11:51 PM
Rhypskallion: miss diminutive:
My history actually teacher called me unpatriotic for saying so.

Well, patriots die for their country, no questions asked--right? Wasn't that the definition of patriot at one point?

Having said that--fark that history teacher. Teachers should not bully students, and questions should be asked--that's how we learn.


I think we can all agree analrape is hot, in a non sequitur, my-hands-are-question marks kind of way
 
2012-08-19 06:11:56 PM
If you ever see the area they landed...A troop of boy scouts with BB guns could have defended it. The battle ended up poorly planned, poorly led, poorly executed, and a sad misuse of some superb troops. I have nothing but admiration for the Canadian soldiers who went ashore there. They fought and died in a battle they never should have been put in.
 
2012-08-19 06:12:47 PM

cman: Did we really have to liberate Normandy?

Couldnt we have waited until the Nazi's killed off over half the people first?

/fark Normandy


Nice thing to say considering all of the men who died there.
 
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