If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(WFTV Orlando)   If you thought that force feeding autistic children hot sauce soaked crayons is not an acceptable therapy method, you might want to revise your educational philosophy. Then again, this is Florida   (wftv.com) divider line 43
    More: Followup, educational philosophy, Play-Doh, Osceola County, therapy, WFTV  
•       •       •

6606 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Aug 2012 at 7:50 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Archived thread
2012-08-19 02:16:10 AM
2 votes:

ShannonKW: sleeps in trees: So.... she should let the kids eat crayons?

No, you remove them like all adults do. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

A teacher isn't "all adults." Neither, for that matter, are you.

The teacher's job is to help the kid learn how to use the crayons. She can't do that by taking them away. One of the most basic things the kid needs to learn about crayons is that they belong on paper, not in his mouth. So, she decided to make the crayons taste bad, perhaps on the theory that one is less likely to put a bad-tasting object in one's mouth.

Here's something for you to comprehend: she is accused of making something taste bad -- something that is not food and that she had no duty to preserve the flavor of. Depending on how the autistic kid feels about spicy food she may not even be guilty of that.


"Spicy" isn't a taste. It's a sensation.
A painful sensation to some and a child, let alone a special needs child, might not correlate the process of eating crayons with a painful sensation. Especially if this is not consistently reinforced. So the child learns nothing.
2012-08-19 01:51:47 AM
2 votes:

ShannonKW: Madame Ovary: That's a very pretty strawman, but it doesn't disguise that you have no idea, none whatsoever, what you are talking about.

What am I supposed to say to that, or am I just supposed to admire your lazy snark?

[ohsnap.jpg]

It isn't a strawman unless you care to show how it misses the point.

Got an autistic kid? I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure you know things about autism that I'll never know. For that matter, the folks dancing around with venomous snakes in church know things about venomous snakes that I'll never know. They're not the only ones entitled to speak on the practice when it becomes a public issue and neither are the parents of autistic children.


OK, sure. Neither sleeps in trees nor Great Porn Dragon argued that any sort of unpleasantness visited upon children is a crime beyond the pale and unworthy of an educator, that allowing a child to taste hot sauce is tantamount to child abuse, nor that it is criminally cruel to feed a child a salad with radishes in it, nor that the world be padded in cotton to spare him. These, and the overarching notions behind them, are all your inventions. They are arguing, as I am arguing, that putting hot sauce on crayons and leaving them out for an autistic kid to handle is sloppy, irresponsible and ineffective (if not counterproductive) discipline that will cause unnecessary pain to the child. There are ways to teach autistic crayon-eating children not to eat crayons, but this isn't one of them. It is emphatically not the job of the teacher to inflict pointless pain on students.

There are a number of specifics offered in our above posts, most of which you have either marginalized with no supporting evidence (specifically, sensory reaction to hot sauce and the differences in perception between autistic and non-autistic persons), or ignored altogether (specifically, risk of secondary irritation and disciplinary ineffectiveness). Your opinions about how the autistic feel pain or can be successfully disciplined are clearly ill-informed conjecture.

I am the parent of a severely autistic child. Every other autism parent on this thread will know what that means. You are some random jackass on the Internet with an opinion he can't support, and who doubles down when he's called on his BS. Whatever. You have every right to speak. Just don't expect to be taken seriously.
2012-08-19 12:38:49 AM
2 votes:

sleeps in trees: insertsnarkyusername: PapaChester: jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.

Same working situation as you, but I disagree. You can totally takes the wax eaters crayons away and not the others. If they want crayons, they should not eat them. This is an autistic child, not a vegetable. Training a person with mental issues just takes longer, but you don't give up before you try.

Then he throws a fit and the other 3 get nothing done for the day. Not that it really matters too much actually but it's easier on the teacher.

That's not how it works. Take a look at funding and where it goes. Not to the kids who need it but the motherfarking sparkle ponies.

/did I go too far?


Are you autistic yourself, or are you just under the influence of alcohol or some other recreational substance, tonight?
2012-08-18 11:56:12 PM
2 votes:

ShannonKW: Great Porn Dragon: there's two big things you seem to have forgotten and/or are unaware of:

a) Taste sensation in children is different, and often more sensitive, than in adults [...]

b) [autistic kids are abnormally sensitive]

I'm aware of these things and was mindful of them when I posted.

Again, as in the case of another poster here, if you are of the mindset that any sort of unpleasantness visited upon children is a crime beyond the pale and unworthy of an educator, then we don't agree enough to have a meaningful debate on this. If not, then it's a question of degree. Yes, small children react more strongly to bad flavors. It is unreasonable for you to expect that everyone, including an appropriately skeptical judge, share your belief that merely allowing a child to taste hot sauce is a cruelty tantamount to child abuse.

(Small children, it is said, perceive all pain as life-threatening. A child who has skinned his knee in the playground is, presumably, in an agony akin to an adult suffering a heart attack. While it would be cruel to inflict this suffering on a child, it would take an extreme point of view to say that merely allowing a child to play, and sooner or later skin his knee, amounts to criminal cruelty.)

It is in the nature of autism that its victims appear overly sensitive. That's the hell of the disease. An autistic patient may wail like a damned soul at the agony of being transported to school. We'd all assume that he is suffering terribly, but the world cannot be padded in cotton to spare him. The point of sending him to school rather than letting him remain at home in his comfort zone playing with door knobs all day is to get him to cope with the world of the senses, as painful as that may be for him. Some things that you stick in your mouth taste bad. You spit them out and remember not to eat them again. Normal kids and autistic kids are sitting on floors around the world and learning that lesson at this very moment.

By your reasoning it would be cruel -- criminally cruel and cause for dismissal -- to feed the child a salad with radishes in it. Let's say the kid is used to eating salads. Even normal people find radishes wickedly hot and bitter. Perhaps his autistic brain is wracked with agony at the taste of a radish, but this is how normals learn to spit the damned things out, and the autistic kid needs to learn this too, even if the lesson is harder on him.


That's a very pretty strawman, but it doesn't disguise that you have no idea, none whatsoever, what you are talking about.
2012-08-18 11:13:29 PM
2 votes:

doglover: Madame Ovary: I have a severely autistic son, and if you don't think this is over the line, then I think maybe you have more to learn about autism.

This is the big problem.

You know all about autism. Most people know next to nothing. I certainly never heard it was a sensory disorder until this very thread.

This teacher was probably just sent to cover the special ed kids because no one else was available and she didn't know what else to do. If the kid was just a normal young kid, the hot sauce on the crayon is still a bad idea, but it would be more reasonable to think hot sauce itself would be an appropriate aversion tool.

Have you considered working in education yourself? The demand for qualified special ed teachers is always going to be higher than the supply of people who actually get proper training. You could change the game and put up good advice for teachers who might be thrown into such a gig without proper backgrounds on the internet.


Good for you for taking the time to read the comments and learn something, that's more than most farkers do. :-)

Autism is indeed a sensory disorder, or at least that's what pretty much all current research points to anyway. They've covered it pretty well here really. Much as a disorder like borderline personality is described as lacking an "emotional skin," those on the autism spectrum seem to lack a sensory skin. Their bodies react to stimuli in a way that those of us with average neurological connections literally couldn't even fathom. That's why there are so often behavioral and social problems associated with autism, they literally get overloaded by just being in certain environments. And in extreme cases, almost ANY environment. It's a really tough illness, in truth.
2012-08-18 09:49:03 PM
2 votes:

ShannonKW: sleeps in trees: hot sauce is not as common as you think. Secondly parents with autistic children guard and entrust sp needs teachers to keep them safe

Assuming you're serious, it looks like we don't have enough common ground to discuss this. The best I can tell you is that you have a very broad notion of what constitutes a threat from which children need to be kept safe, and you are perhaps hasty assuming that all sensible adults (or even most of us) see it as you do.


Or some of us are educated, in autism, unlike this teacher, and you.

Psst, crayons aren't a threat.
2012-08-18 09:47:09 PM
2 votes:

jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.


Same working situation as you, but I disagree. You can totally takes the wax eaters crayons away and not the others. If they want crayons, they should not eat them. This is an autistic child, not a vegetable. Training a person with mental issues just takes longer, but you don't give up before you try.
2012-08-18 07:59:35 PM
2 votes:
I think hot sauce would probably improve the taste of crayons.
2012-08-18 04:45:13 PM
2 votes:
I guess I understand the initial thought-process behind this, specifically to get the kid to stop eating crayons.

However, the practical application doesn't seem to account for when the kid uses the crayons, then: rubs their eyes, touches other kids, eats something with their hands, etc.
2012-08-19 05:58:24 PM
1 votes:

dready zim: sleeps in trees: I had a comming to Jesus about my opinions used diagnoses.

what does this sentence even mean? they are all real words (except comming) but mean nothing in this arrangement.

wait, I have found a definition for comming from the urban dictionary

1. comming

A common misspelling of a word that seems so easy to spell that it hurts your brain when it's actually misspelled in this fashion. Even if you sounded out the word "coming" phonetically, to try and spell it, you would not get anything resembling "comming."


Also, it seems this kid needs 1 to 1 attention just to stop them eating crayons. That is a stupid waste of resources on a planet where so many children with a better chance of being productive members are denied food, water and basic education.


Sorry, tired as crap last night and wasn't paying attention. Good to know you still understood what I was saying and took the time to correct me.
2012-08-19 05:53:26 PM
1 votes:

ShannonKW: Madame Ovary: They are arguing, as I am arguing, that putting hot sauce on crayons and leaving them out for an autistic kid to handle is sloppy, irresponsible and ineffective (if not counterproductive) discipline that will cause unnecessary pain to the child.

If that's all you're arguing, then it's a matter of professional opinion on which techniques are more effective than others (and which are not effective at all) in the esoteric world of autistic education, and I have no dog in this fight. The judge in TFA goes no further than to say it was "inappropriate" to use hot sauce, which these days could mean about anything.

The post that you responded to (walking around the filter here) was referring to posts by Great Porn Dragon and one other whom I'd rather not name (not you) in which there were apparently appeals made to pity (e.g. that it is cruel to expose even normal children to hot sauce). I don't recall reading any of your posts at the point you waxed pompous and accused me of attacking a strawman, though I may have been influenced by their tone. Mostly, though, you were attacking a comment which was not addressed to you.

One comment of mine that does seem to apply to your writings is the expectation that the world be padded in cotton. You deny holding this belief but it appears quite evident. The world is full of "aversives" for even closely watched children, hot sauce is not an outlandish one, and many of them are more intense. Expecting everyone in contact with a child to hem out these stimuli is an effort very much akin to padding the world in cotton. You may argue that an educator can be expected to, but there's no point unless you shrink the kid's world down to home and school, in which case you're back to Square One.

Like many people trapped in an intensely stressful situation, you appear to have lost some objectivity. You may have for ages of hopeless end busied yourself every waking day with not spinning up your autistic child, and you may ...


Dude, you kind of farked yourself with the last paragraph.
2012-08-19 05:02:22 AM
1 votes:

Madame Ovary: They are arguing, as I am arguing, that putting hot sauce on crayons and leaving them out for an autistic kid to handle is sloppy, irresponsible and ineffective (if not counterproductive) discipline that will cause unnecessary pain to the child.


If that's all you're arguing, then it's a matter of professional opinion on which techniques are more effective than others (and which are not effective at all) in the esoteric world of autistic education, and I have no dog in this fight. The judge in TFA goes no further than to say it was "inappropriate" to use hot sauce, which these days could mean about anything.

The post that you responded to (walking around the filter here) was referring to posts by Great Porn Dragon and one other whom I'd rather not name (not you) in which there were apparently appeals made to pity (e.g. that it is cruel to expose even normal children to hot sauce). I don't recall reading any of your posts at the point you waxed pompous and accused me of attacking a strawman, though I may have been influenced by their tone. Mostly, though, you were attacking a comment which was not addressed to you.

One comment of mine that does seem to apply to your writings is the expectation that the world be padded in cotton. You deny holding this belief but it appears quite evident. The world is full of "aversives" for even closely watched children, hot sauce is not an outlandish one, and many of them are more intense. Expecting everyone in contact with a child to hem out these stimuli is an effort very much akin to padding the world in cotton. You may argue that an educator can be expected to, but there's no point unless you shrink the kid's world down to home and school, in which case you're back to Square One.

Like many people trapped in an intensely stressful situation, you appear to have lost some objectivity. You may have for ages of hopeless end busied yourself every waking day with not spinning up your autistic child, and you may be too ready to assume that others do likewise. I, and many others of voting age, am concerned that badly defective children not be subjected to wanton cruelty (found not to be the case in TFA) on my dime, but we have no practical interest in holding already hard-to-find and expensive teachers to such high standards that they be summarily fired for an instance of employing (what after expert analysis is thought to be) a suboptimal method, especially in the case of children so far gone.
2012-08-19 02:13:36 AM
1 votes:
I did a hot sauce soaked tequila shot 2 weeks ago for the first time in 16 years. It will be at least that long before I do one again.
2012-08-19 01:22:28 AM
1 votes:

sleeps in trees: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: sleeps in trees: insertsnarkyusername: PapaChester: jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.

Same working situation as you, but I disagree. You can totally takes the wax eaters crayons away and not the others. If they want crayons, they should not eat them. This is an autistic child, not a vegetable. Training a person with mental issues just takes longer, but you don't give up before you try.

Then he throws a fit and the other 3 get nothing done for the day. Not that it really matters too much actually but it's easier on the teacher.

That's not how it works. Take a look at funding and where it goes. Not to the kids who need it but the motherfarking sparkle ponies.

/did I go too far?

Are you autistic yourself, or are you just under the influence of alcohol or some other recreational substance, tonight?

Also, no need to be rude. I did not agress to you, cool off.


No offense intended, lady.
2012-08-19 01:09:36 AM
1 votes:

doglover: sleeps in trees: doglover: sleeps in trees: Common term for therapist.

It's not a term, it's an abbreviation. You can't pronounce "tx" There's no phonetic component without a vowel.

You are funny.. In the nicest way I call my staff tx. Sorry. Pronounced " where is the tee-ex".

Then it would be T.X. or tee ex or ティーエクス or something.

tx is the noise of a dart piercing something foil covered.


I just call them my girls.
2012-08-19 01:07:13 AM
1 votes:

pla: sleeps in trees : Psst crayons don't burn the mouth. Really are you all functionally retarded?

Uh, neither does hot sauce if you don't eat the goddamned crayons. Thus the whole point of the exercise - Use crayon, pretty colors. Chew crayon, discomfort. Repeat until lesson learned.

Hell, we use bitter spray on plants to keep the cats away from them, and the cats get the point. If TFA involves someone so low functioning that they make Mr. Fluffy look like Einstein, perhaps that kid would do better somewhere other than a classroom?


And you fail at future humanity. You have taken a commOn functioning child ( although lacking a couple years ) and with no knowledge thought they should be condemned.

Here's a challenge: You pony up. You spend a year with a child with a disability. You spend one hour a week, I will pay you 500 dollars.

You can sit on a step,drink with his parents. You will know them.
2012-08-19 12:58:37 AM
1 votes:

doglover: sleeps in trees: Common term for therapist.

It's not a term, it's an abbreviation. You can't pronounce "tx" There's no phonetic component without a vowel.


You are funny.. In the nicest way I call my staff tx. Sorry. Pronounced " where is the tee-ex".
2012-08-19 12:52:29 AM
1 votes:

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: sleeps in trees: insertsnarkyusername: PapaChester: jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.

Same working situation as you, but I disagree. You can totally takes the wax eaters crayons away and not the others. If they want crayons, they should not eat them. This is an autistic child, not a vegetable. Training a person with mental issues just takes longer, but you don't give up before you try.

Then he throws a fit and the other 3 get nothing done for the day. Not that it really matters too much actually but it's easier on the teacher.

That's not how it works. Take a look at funding and where it goes. Not to the kids who need it but the motherfarking sparkle ponies.

/did I go too far?

Are you autistic yourself, or are you just under the influence of alcohol or some other recreational substance, tonight?


Also, no need to be rude. I did not agress to you, cool off.
2012-08-19 12:49:34 AM
1 votes:

pla: sleeps in trees : Psst, crayons aren't a threat.

Psst - Hotsauce won't exactly kill you, either.


PapaChester : This is an autistic child, not a vegetable.

Well then, that answers SchlingFocker's question from early in the thread.


Psst crayons don't burn the mouth. Really are you all functionally retarded?
2012-08-19 12:47:40 AM
1 votes:

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: sleeps in trees: insertsnarkyusername: PapaChester: jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.

Same working situation as you, but I disagree. You can totally takes the wax eaters crayons away and not the others. If they want crayons, they should not eat them. This is an autistic child, not a vegetable. Training a person with mental issues just takes longer, but you don't give up before you try.

Then he throws a fit and the other 3 get nothing done for the day. Not that it really matters too much actually but it's easier on the teacher.

That's not how it works. Take a look at funding and where it goes. Not to the kids who need it but the motherfarking sparkle ponies.

/did I go too far?

Are you autistic yourself, or are you just under the influence of alcohol or some other recreational substance, tonight?


Nope, sadly I'm normal. I counsel families and do therapy with families with disabled children.

I then, had a babe with autism after the fact. I had a comming to Jesus about my opinions used diagnoses.
2012-08-19 12:42:32 AM
1 votes:

Morning Coffee: sleeps in trees: sleeps in trees: sleeps in trees: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: WhippingBoy: This is so wrong.

Everyone knows that you're supposed to feed retards pudding.

Hey, you know it's offensive to actual retards to compare them with autistic kids.

I know "welcome to fark" but this really killed my soal today.

Andy spelling sucks.

fark it. I'm going to flap down the hallway and play lego.... Just fark it.

I'm laughing way too hard at this. Fantastic.


It's kind of awesome in a nuts way.
2012-08-19 12:38:41 AM
1 votes:

Great Porn Dragon: ShannonKW: Ed Finnerty: I guess I understand the initial thought-process behind this, specifically to get the kid to stop eating crayons.

However, the practical application doesn't seem to account for when the kid uses the crayons, then: rubs their eyes, touches other kids, eats something with their hands, etc.

Reality check here people -- you're talking about hot sauce, a common condiment that you put on your food. You're not talking about radium or arsenic or some drug that must be prescribed by a physician. She appears to have tried to deter crayon-eating (crayons, BTW, being something that doesn't belong in your body) by using spicy food. What's next -- are you going to expect firing for a harsh tone of voice?

Admittedly, if you take the headline at face value you'd think this is an outrage, but subby is a jackass, submitting deliberately false taglines is in vogue these days (maybe this is some kind of ironic/hipster thing) and the teacher doesn't appear to have force-fed anybody anything.

Except there's two big things you seem to have forgotten and/or are unaware of:

a) Taste sensation in children is different, and often more sensitive, than in adults; things that are bland to grownups can be unbearably bitter or spicy to kids. (There's a reason that most foodstuffs designed for kids are bland compared to adult food. :D)

b) Autism is now recognised as a sensory integration disorder, and is increasingly recognised as a sensory integration disorder caused by an inborn error in neural differentiation--in layman's terms, people with autism have too many neurons and/or have them too connected to other neurons, and this not only causes sensory inputs to bleed into each other at times (synesthesia) but also can cause even normal sensations to be incredibly amplified compared to what neurotypicals sense (a good way to think of this is that the sensory inputs of people with autism are stuck on a gigabit if not Infinilink connection whilst neurotypicals are still on 10BASE-T ethernet :D).

What this means in plain English--even if the kid was a neurotypical it'd STILL have been quite unpleasant, and the woman did this to a kid in a population where even paprika might feel like a mouthful of bhut jolokia or Trinidad Scorpion peppers. (Some folks with autism who would be in the "lower functioning" classes and less mainstreamed have enough sensory issues with even stuff neurotypical folks consider bland that they pretty much restrict themselves to either extremely bland foods, foods of a certain texture, or both--lest their mouth explode into a mass of pain when eating.)

(And for the record--paprika is considered to be the mildest of "hot" peppers, with the sweet paprika varieties barely having perceptible spice at all.)


Sunlight and salt are still a work in progress.
2012-08-19 12:35:29 AM
1 votes:

insertsnarkyusername: PapaChester: jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.

Same working situation as you, but I disagree. You can totally takes the wax eaters crayons away and not the others. If they want crayons, they should not eat them. This is an autistic child, not a vegetable. Training a person with mental issues just takes longer, but you don't give up before you try.

Then he throws a fit and the other 3 get nothing done for the day. Not that it really matters too much actually but it's easier on the teacher.


That's not how it works. Take a look at funding and where it goes. Not to the kids who need it but the motherfarking sparkle ponies.

/did I go too far?
2012-08-19 12:30:58 AM
1 votes:

doglover: sleeps in trees: Further as a tx that works with these children their senses are magnified.

You're... Texas?


Common term for therapist. Sorry pup - pun intended.
2012-08-18 11:16:53 PM
1 votes:

rosonowski: I really wish she had told me about it, I could have offered more immediate comfort (ie, some vegetable oil and paper towels). Poor girl didn't know water just spreads it around.


Try a tablespoon of bleach in 3 or 4 cups of water. That converts the whatever-it is-that-won't-rinse-off into a salt that easily rinses off. At such a low concentration I've used it on my face and eyelids (don't think for a second that I didn't have my eyes slammed shut while I did it). I learned about the bleach thing from watching Alton Brown.

/not a joke, it really works
2012-08-18 10:58:42 PM
1 votes:

Madame Ovary: I have a severely autistic son, and if you don't think this is over the line, then I think maybe you have more to learn about autism.


This is the big problem.

You know all about autism. Most people know next to nothing. I certainly never heard it was a sensory disorder until this very thread.

This teacher was probably just sent to cover the special ed kids because no one else was available and she didn't know what else to do. If the kid was just a normal young kid, the hot sauce on the crayon is still a bad idea, but it would be more reasonable to think hot sauce itself would be an appropriate aversion tool.

Have you considered working in education yourself? The demand for qualified special ed teachers is always going to be higher than the supply of people who actually get proper training. You could change the game and put up good advice for teachers who might be thrown into such a gig without proper backgrounds on the internet.
2012-08-18 10:42:11 PM
1 votes:
My neighbor has an autistic teenage boy. Earlier this summer we had a neighborhood bbq and watched this kid down a bottle of Frank's Red Hot like it was Pepsi. He loved that shiat and it didn't seem to affect him much. Although afterwards he climbed up on his parents roof and masturbated furiously but I don't think it was related.
2012-08-18 10:41:46 PM
1 votes:

jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.


I have a severely autistic son, and if you don't think this is over the line, then I think maybe you have more to learn about autism.

There's nothing wrong with aversives if they are very clearly and specfically implemented, appropriate to the child, and properly controlled. I don't think that was the case here.

First, autism is a sensory disorder. It is quite likely that the kid feels the burn from commercial hot sauce far, far more powerfully than the average person. This cannot be understated. Much of the extreme behavior of autistic people (stimming, repetitive tics, tantrums, etc.) is actually reactive to sensory stimuli, which should give you some idea of how strongly they feel sensory input. A taste powerful enough to bring tears to the eyes of other ordinary grade-school age kids, as hot sauce often does, is massive overkill for an autistic person. The taste stays in the mouth for some time, too, and drinking water does not necessarily make it go away. While every autistic kid is different, it's very likely that the effect is far more powerful than would really be needed for a successful aversive. The nail stuff your talking about might even be too powerful for an autistic person. Any aversive therapy that is to be considered has to take the reactions of the child into account. Otherwise, it's torture, and a qualified special ed teacher should know the difference.

Second, the crayons were soaked in commercial hot sauce, which contains skin irritants that do not always go away with simple washing/irrigation. If the kid touches the crayons and then wipes his eyes, just for example, now you have a child in pain with no causal connection to the undesirable behavior, which I would say counts as negligence at minimum.

Third, there does not seem to have been an effort on the part of the teacher to narrowly target the undesirable behavior. The use of any aversive should be accompanied by immediate and clear communication with the student through verbal warnings, PECS, etc. The article is not clear on this, but booby-trapping crayons is not consistent with a teacher trying to proactively administer an adversive that is clearly only connected to the undesirable behavior.

Finally, although the article is not clear on this point, it sounds like the teacher did this on her own without consulting with the parents or the IEP team. If any teacher tried that with my kid, I'd make it a personal project to make sure they didn't get a second chance. If the district is coming down against the teacher, and the union isn't stepping up, probably it's a good bet that that's what happened.

We've actually worked successfully with our son's teachers to successfully administer adversives. This teacher didn't. I question her professionalism and her knowledge of autism, and I'm kinda questioning yours at this point, too.
2012-08-18 10:19:59 PM
1 votes:

ShannonKW: Ed Finnerty: I guess I understand the initial thought-process behind this, specifically to get the kid to stop eating crayons.

However, the practical application doesn't seem to account for when the kid uses the crayons, then: rubs their eyes, touches other kids, eats something with their hands, etc.

Reality check here people -- you're talking about hot sauce, a common condiment that you put on your food. You're not talking about radium or arsenic or some drug that must be prescribed by a physician. She appears to have tried to deter crayon-eating (crayons, BTW, being something that doesn't belong in your body) by using spicy food. What's next -- are you going to expect firing for a harsh tone of voice?

Admittedly, if you take the headline at face value you'd think this is an outrage, but subby is a jackass, submitting deliberately false taglines is in vogue these days (maybe this is some kind of ironic/hipster thing) and the teacher doesn't appear to have force-fed anybody anything.


Except there's two big things you seem to have forgotten and/or are unaware of:

a) Taste sensation in children is different, and often more sensitive, than in adults; things that are bland to grownups can be unbearably bitter or spicy to kids. (There's a reason that most foodstuffs designed for kids are bland compared to adult food. :D)

b) Autism is now recognised as a sensory integration disorder, and is increasingly recognised as a sensory integration disorder caused by an inborn error in neural differentiation--in layman's terms, people with autism have too many neurons and/or have them too connected to other neurons, and this not only causes sensory inputs to bleed into each other at times (synesthesia) but also can cause even normal sensations to be incredibly amplified compared to what neurotypicals sense (a good way to think of this is that the sensory inputs of people with autism are stuck on a gigabit if not Infinilink connection whilst neurotypicals are still on 10BASE-T ethernet :D).

What this means in plain English--even if the kid was a neurotypical it'd STILL have been quite unpleasant, and the woman did this to a kid in a population where even paprika might feel like a mouthful of bhut jolokia or Trinidad Scorpion peppers. (Some folks with autism who would be in the "lower functioning" classes and less mainstreamed have enough sensory issues with even stuff neurotypical folks consider bland that they pretty much restrict themselves to either extremely bland foods, foods of a certain texture, or both--lest their mouth explode into a mass of pain when eating.)

(And for the record--paprika is considered to be the mildest of "hot" peppers, with the sweet paprika varieties barely having perceptible spice at all.)
2012-08-18 09:59:27 PM
1 votes:

sleeps in trees: ShannonKW: sleeps in trees: So.... she should let the kids eat crayons?

No, you remove them like all adults do. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

A teacher isn't "all adults." Neither, for that matter, are you.

The teacher's job is to help the kid learn how to use the crayons. She can't do that by taking them away. One of the most basic things the kid needs to learn about crayons is that they belong on paper, not in his mouth. So, she decided to make the crayons taste bad, perhaps on the theory that one is less likely to put a bad-tasting object in one's mouth.

Here's something for you to comprehend: she is accused of making something taste bad -- something that is not food and that she had no duty to preserve the flavor of. Depending on how the autistic kid feels about spicy food she may not even be guilty of that.

Here is something for you to comprehend, she had no right to do that. According to numerous precedence she crossed the line with no education to back her up.

Further as a tx that works with these children their senses are magnified. You have no idea what you are talking about.

The child commonly ate crayons. She had no "duty" to fark with him. If someone did that to a "normal" child's milk you would be outraged. Aversion is now considered barbaric and abusive.


Milk is made for drinking, crayons for drawing. Letting a child eat non-food items seems like child abuse to me.
2012-08-18 09:53:47 PM
1 votes:

Dokushin: sleeps in trees: jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.

fark I hate you all sometimes.

So what's your solution? The other children are coloring, so you can't remove the crayons "like all adults do." You're in the situation described. Since the proposed solutions are so completely reprehensible as to cause you to hate the people suggesting them (en masse, no less) what is your proposed solution?


Depends on the situation and methods used. Further if this is his SE a plan is in place. It's just not 123. There are systems in place in the teaching aspect. If this SE does not know aversions are detrimental then she needs a new job.
2012-08-18 09:49:45 PM
1 votes:

PapaChester: jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.

Same working situation as you, but I disagree. You can totally takes the wax eaters crayons away and not the others. If they want crayons, they should not eat them. This is an autistic child, not a vegetable. Training a person with mental issues just takes longer, but you don't give up before you try.


And now I love you.
2012-08-18 09:48:00 PM
1 votes:

ShannonKW: sleeps in trees: So.... she should let the kids eat crayons?

No, you remove them like all adults do. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

A teacher isn't "all adults." Neither, for that matter, are you.

The teacher's job is to help the kid learn how to use the crayons. She can't do that by taking them away. One of the most basic things the kid needs to learn about crayons is that they belong on paper, not in his mouth. So, she decided to make the crayons taste bad, perhaps on the theory that one is less likely to put a bad-tasting object in one's mouth.

Here's something for you to comprehend: she is accused of making something taste bad -- something that is not food and that she had no duty to preserve the flavor of. Depending on how the autistic kid feels about spicy food she may not even be guilty of that.


At that age you can warp a kid's mind. Using hot sauce as a 'surprise' teaching aid is borderline child abuse. This teacher is clearly not very bright. You start a kid's academic career off like that, you could very well be farking his or her life up.

That revolting sow has no business working with kids.
2012-08-18 09:37:24 PM
1 votes:

jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.


fark I hate you all sometimes.
2012-08-18 09:34:30 PM
1 votes:

ShannonKW: sleeps in trees: So.... she should let the kids eat crayons?

No, you remove them like all adults do. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

A teacher isn't "all adults." Neither, for that matter, are you.

The teacher's job is to help the kid learn how to use the crayons. She can't do that by taking them away. One of the most basic things the kid needs to learn about crayons is that they belong on paper, not in his mouth. So, she decided to make the crayons taste bad, perhaps on the theory that one is less likely to put a bad-tasting object in one's mouth.

Here's something for you to comprehend: she is accused of making something taste bad -- something that is not food and that she had no duty to preserve the flavor of. Depending on how the autistic kid feels about spicy food she may not even be guilty of that.


Here is something for you to comprehend, she had no right to do that. According to numerous precedence she crossed the line with no education to back her up.

Further as a tx that works with these children their senses are magnified. You have no idea what you are talking about.

The child commonly ate crayons. She had no "duty" to fark with him. If someone did that to a "normal" child's milk you would be outraged. Aversion is now considered barbaric and abusive.
2012-08-18 09:26:11 PM
1 votes:

sleeps in trees: So.... she should let the kids eat crayons?

No, you remove them like all adults do. Why is this so hard to comprehend?


A teacher isn't "all adults." Neither, for that matter, are you.

The teacher's job is to help the kid learn how to use the crayons. She can't do that by taking them away. One of the most basic things the kid needs to learn about crayons is that they belong on paper, not in his mouth. So, she decided to make the crayons taste bad, perhaps on the theory that one is less likely to put a bad-tasting object in one's mouth.

Here's something for you to comprehend: she is accused of making something taste bad -- something that is not food and that she had no duty to preserve the flavor of. Depending on how the autistic kid feels about spicy food she may not even be guilty of that.
2012-08-18 09:25:56 PM
1 votes:
He's autisic and probably doesn't know better but at the same time this type of punishment is nothing new. I don't know if it's still used now but using hot sauce on a kids thumb was a popular way to break the thumb-sucking habit. That, and lemon juice for nail biters.
But highly inappropriate in the teacher/student discipline relationship.
2012-08-18 09:00:17 PM
1 votes:

sleeps in trees: sleeps in trees: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: WhippingBoy: This is so wrong.

Everyone knows that you're supposed to feed retards pudding.

Hey, you know it's offensive to actual retards to compare them with autistic kids.

I know "welcome to fark" but this really killed my soal today.

Andy spelling sucks.


fark it. I'm going to flap down the hallway and play lego.... Just fark it.
2012-08-18 08:59:04 PM
1 votes:

sleeps in trees: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: WhippingBoy: This is so wrong.

Everyone knows that you're supposed to feed retards pudding.

Hey, you know it's offensive to actual retards to compare them with autistic kids.

I know "welcome to fark" but this really killed my soal today.


Andy spelling sucks.
2012-08-18 08:57:13 PM
1 votes:

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: WhippingBoy: This is so wrong.

Everyone knows that you're supposed to feed retards pudding.

Hey, you know it's offensive to actual retards to compare them with autistic kids.


I know "welcome to fark" but this really killed my soal today.
2012-08-18 08:55:15 PM
1 votes:
obligatory post about autism being a euphemism for poor parenting

obligatory post about raising an autistic child being more rewarding because of the challenge

obligatory post about vaccines

obligatory post about some kid i saw doing something once

obligatory post about unconditional love

obligatory post about missing the point and making a reference to counting to potato
2012-08-18 08:16:44 PM
1 votes:

fusillade762: I say if the kid wants to eat crayons let them. Make them bring their own next time.


Hrm. They *are* non-toxic and biodegradable. Military rule of thumb: If your body can turn it into a turd, it HAS to be food. So I'm gonna agree with ya on this one.
2012-08-18 07:59:33 PM
1 votes:
Taco Bell announces it's new menu item in 5... 4...
 
Displayed 43 of 43 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report