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(WFTV Orlando)   If you thought that force feeding autistic children hot sauce soaked crayons is not an acceptable therapy method, you might want to revise your educational philosophy. Then again, this is Florida   (wftv.com) divider line 119
    More: Followup, educational philosophy, Play-Doh, Osceola County, therapy, WFTV  
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6607 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Aug 2012 at 7:50 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-18 09:49:45 PM

PapaChester: jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.

Same working situation as you, but I disagree. You can totally takes the wax eaters crayons away and not the others. If they want crayons, they should not eat them. This is an autistic child, not a vegetable. Training a person with mental issues just takes longer, but you don't give up before you try.


And now I love you.
 
2012-08-18 09:53:47 PM

Dokushin: sleeps in trees: jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.

fark I hate you all sometimes.

So what's your solution? The other children are coloring, so you can't remove the crayons "like all adults do." You're in the situation described. Since the proposed solutions are so completely reprehensible as to cause you to hate the people suggesting them (en masse, no less) what is your proposed solution?


Depends on the situation and methods used. Further if this is his SE a plan is in place. It's just not 123. There are systems in place in the teaching aspect. If this SE does not know aversions are detrimental then she needs a new job.
 
2012-08-18 09:59:27 PM

sleeps in trees: ShannonKW: sleeps in trees: So.... she should let the kids eat crayons?

No, you remove them like all adults do. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

A teacher isn't "all adults." Neither, for that matter, are you.

The teacher's job is to help the kid learn how to use the crayons. She can't do that by taking them away. One of the most basic things the kid needs to learn about crayons is that they belong on paper, not in his mouth. So, she decided to make the crayons taste bad, perhaps on the theory that one is less likely to put a bad-tasting object in one's mouth.

Here's something for you to comprehend: she is accused of making something taste bad -- something that is not food and that she had no duty to preserve the flavor of. Depending on how the autistic kid feels about spicy food she may not even be guilty of that.

Here is something for you to comprehend, she had no right to do that. According to numerous precedence she crossed the line with no education to back her up.

Further as a tx that works with these children their senses are magnified. You have no idea what you are talking about.

The child commonly ate crayons. She had no "duty" to fark with him. If someone did that to a "normal" child's milk you would be outraged. Aversion is now considered barbaric and abusive.


Milk is made for drinking, crayons for drawing. Letting a child eat non-food items seems like child abuse to me.
 
2012-08-18 10:02:17 PM
Guilty - 'cause she's fat.
 
2012-08-18 10:10:12 PM
WTF TV
 
2012-08-18 10:13:20 PM

sleeps in trees: Further as a tx that works with these children their senses are magnified.


You're... Texas?
 
2012-08-18 10:19:59 PM

ShannonKW: Ed Finnerty: I guess I understand the initial thought-process behind this, specifically to get the kid to stop eating crayons.

However, the practical application doesn't seem to account for when the kid uses the crayons, then: rubs their eyes, touches other kids, eats something with their hands, etc.

Reality check here people -- you're talking about hot sauce, a common condiment that you put on your food. You're not talking about radium or arsenic or some drug that must be prescribed by a physician. She appears to have tried to deter crayon-eating (crayons, BTW, being something that doesn't belong in your body) by using spicy food. What's next -- are you going to expect firing for a harsh tone of voice?

Admittedly, if you take the headline at face value you'd think this is an outrage, but subby is a jackass, submitting deliberately false taglines is in vogue these days (maybe this is some kind of ironic/hipster thing) and the teacher doesn't appear to have force-fed anybody anything.


Except there's two big things you seem to have forgotten and/or are unaware of:

a) Taste sensation in children is different, and often more sensitive, than in adults; things that are bland to grownups can be unbearably bitter or spicy to kids. (There's a reason that most foodstuffs designed for kids are bland compared to adult food. :D)

b) Autism is now recognised as a sensory integration disorder, and is increasingly recognised as a sensory integration disorder caused by an inborn error in neural differentiation--in layman's terms, people with autism have too many neurons and/or have them too connected to other neurons, and this not only causes sensory inputs to bleed into each other at times (synesthesia) but also can cause even normal sensations to be incredibly amplified compared to what neurotypicals sense (a good way to think of this is that the sensory inputs of people with autism are stuck on a gigabit if not Infinilink connection whilst neurotypicals are still on 10BASE-T ethernet :D).

What this means in plain English--even if the kid was a neurotypical it'd STILL have been quite unpleasant, and the woman did this to a kid in a population where even paprika might feel like a mouthful of bhut jolokia or Trinidad Scorpion peppers. (Some folks with autism who would be in the "lower functioning" classes and less mainstreamed have enough sensory issues with even stuff neurotypical folks consider bland that they pretty much restrict themselves to either extremely bland foods, foods of a certain texture, or both--lest their mouth explode into a mass of pain when eating.)

(And for the record--paprika is considered to be the mildest of "hot" peppers, with the sweet paprika varieties barely having perceptible spice at all.)
 
2012-08-18 10:21:51 PM
I spent nearly a decade taking care mentally challenged and autistic individuals.
Every day I would watch the special bus come pick them up and haul them to the "special really expensive school that the government says they are entitled to" to educate them.
About the only thing they learned was new masturbation techniques.
I still don't know why we waste so much tax money attempting to educate children like this.
Regardless of if they learn that a banana is yellow they will be a burden on the rest of us for their entire lives.
Lets save a few bucks and stop the charade of entitled education for those that can not learn.

/Not a troll.
//Those people are freaking strong and will tear your arm off.
 
zez
2012-08-18 10:23:53 PM
When my first child was an infant, I'd dip my finger in some hit sauce and let him lick it off. He loved it and now really enjoys spicy foods so I think dipping crayons in hot sauce would only make him want to eat crayons.

Funny thing though. With the second we didn't do the hotsauce for some reason but his first food was fresh avacado, which the older had never had. The youngest will now eat tons of guacamole as long as it isn't spicy and the oldest hates guacamole but will still ask for more hot sauce.
 
zez
2012-08-18 10:25:57 PM
oh yeah, now it's a

HOT SAUCE THREAD!!!!

I think this is the best all purpose hot sauce that you can pretty much pick up anywhere

healthyprofessionals.blog.com
 
2012-08-18 10:28:48 PM
Does anybody have a good recipe for spicy crayon-cakes?
 
2012-08-18 10:36:29 PM
That woman shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children.
 
2012-08-18 10:36:42 PM

Buffet: Guilty - 'cause she's fat.


And Hispanic.
 
2012-08-18 10:41:46 PM

jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.


I have a severely autistic son, and if you don't think this is over the line, then I think maybe you have more to learn about autism.

There's nothing wrong with aversives if they are very clearly and specfically implemented, appropriate to the child, and properly controlled. I don't think that was the case here.

First, autism is a sensory disorder. It is quite likely that the kid feels the burn from commercial hot sauce far, far more powerfully than the average person. This cannot be understated. Much of the extreme behavior of autistic people (stimming, repetitive tics, tantrums, etc.) is actually reactive to sensory stimuli, which should give you some idea of how strongly they feel sensory input. A taste powerful enough to bring tears to the eyes of other ordinary grade-school age kids, as hot sauce often does, is massive overkill for an autistic person. The taste stays in the mouth for some time, too, and drinking water does not necessarily make it go away. While every autistic kid is different, it's very likely that the effect is far more powerful than would really be needed for a successful aversive. The nail stuff your talking about might even be too powerful for an autistic person. Any aversive therapy that is to be considered has to take the reactions of the child into account. Otherwise, it's torture, and a qualified special ed teacher should know the difference.

Second, the crayons were soaked in commercial hot sauce, which contains skin irritants that do not always go away with simple washing/irrigation. If the kid touches the crayons and then wipes his eyes, just for example, now you have a child in pain with no causal connection to the undesirable behavior, which I would say counts as negligence at minimum.

Third, there does not seem to have been an effort on the part of the teacher to narrowly target the undesirable behavior. The use of any aversive should be accompanied by immediate and clear communication with the student through verbal warnings, PECS, etc. The article is not clear on this, but booby-trapping crayons is not consistent with a teacher trying to proactively administer an adversive that is clearly only connected to the undesirable behavior.

Finally, although the article is not clear on this point, it sounds like the teacher did this on her own without consulting with the parents or the IEP team. If any teacher tried that with my kid, I'd make it a personal project to make sure they didn't get a second chance. If the district is coming down against the teacher, and the union isn't stepping up, probably it's a good bet that that's what happened.

We've actually worked successfully with our son's teachers to successfully administer adversives. This teacher didn't. I question her professionalism and her knowledge of autism, and I'm kinda questioning yours at this point, too.
 
2012-08-18 10:42:08 PM
But did it work? Did he stop eating crayons?
 
2012-08-18 10:42:11 PM
My neighbor has an autistic teenage boy. Earlier this summer we had a neighborhood bbq and watched this kid down a bottle of Frank's Red Hot like it was Pepsi. He loved that shiat and it didn't seem to affect him much. Although afterwards he climbed up on his parents roof and masturbated furiously but I don't think it was related.
 
2012-08-18 10:43:42 PM

Kahabut: thamike: So, contrary to the headline, there was no force-feeding.

Lillian Gomez was fired earlier this year after district officials said she soaked Play-Doh and crayons in hot sauce and force-fed them to a student.

I'm not certain what this means... but it does in fact say force-fed. Which sounds bad.


That's what I thought until I read further.
 
2012-08-18 10:54:08 PM

lemortede: I spent nearly a decade taking care mentally challenged and autistic individuals.
Every day I would watch the special bus come pick them up and haul them to the "special really expensive school that the government says they are entitled to" to educate them.
About the only thing they learned was new masturbation techniques.
I still don't know why we waste so much tax money attempting to educate children like this.
Regardless of if they learn that a banana is yellow they will be a burden on the rest of us for their entire lives.
Lets save a few bucks and stop the charade of entitled education for those that can not learn.

/Not a troll.
//Those people are freaking strong and will tear your arm off.


A few problems with your statement:

a) You're talking about two sets that don't always overlap (and are now being found to overlap quite a bit less than previously realised)--people with intellectual disabilities (including those in the TMH and EMH and, in some schools, PMH classes) and people with a neurological disability (which autism is finally being recognised as--all evidence points to autism as being at its root a sensory integration disorder caused by inborn problems in neural differentiation and routing).

Assuming all people with autism are instant TMH and PMH class material is as inappropriate as, say, claiming that all kids with cerebral palsy are hopelessly ineducable and should be warehoused in state ICF/DD facilities. (Of note, this is exactly what used to be done with kids with cerebral palsy, who were (wrongfully, usually) assumed to be "too derpy to be educable"; it wasn't until 1976 that the average kid with cerebral palsy were even allowed into most public school systems.)

b) Pretty much most school systems had no idea how to properly educate and work with kids with autism until very recently, and by this value I mean "usually within the past five to eight years"; before that, kids "on the spectrum" usually ended up being warehoused in the TMH and PMH classes if they were "low functioning" enough to be nonverbal or have regular meltdowns in a class.

Ironically enough, much of the change in how even "low functioning" people with autism are perceived is because--surprise, surprise, surprise--teachers in public schools taught them methods on how to communicate via computer or sign language, or worked with them patiently to deal with the sensory overload stuff...and they've been actually able to describe what the sensory-overload stuff and sensory issues are like, pointing researchers to the idea that we were dealing with a neurological problem (like in cerebral palsy) rather than an intellectual disability.

c) With appropriate teaching and therapy (biiiig emphasis on this) even a fair number of "low functioning" autistics can manage to live outside of an ICF/DD "institution"--either in supervised housing or in some form of assisted living. (Surely you don't suggest we throw Grandma on the ice flows because she needs someone to help her out thanks to her bum hip and is in an "Assisted Living" facility! :D) Some of them even get to pretty major things--one kid who'd have been classified as "low functioning" in her early days did receive appropriate therapy and now not only works in designing humane enclosures for animals, not only discusses animal welfare implications on how different critters sense the world, but also does talks on autism and how the sensory inputs of people with autism are different than that of neurotypicals (and often close to that of non-human animals in some ways). One of their first designs--a humane restraint system for cattle based directly on how "deep squeeze" therapy calms down both bovines and people with autism who are being "over-stimmed".

d) Yes, there are people with autism who have such severe sensory problems that most therapies are going to be nothing but an exercise in pain for them; yes, there will be people with autism who can't function outside of an institutional setting (often these folks not only have autism but other neurological and/or cognitive disabilities that cause a big bowl full of suck--rubella during pregnancy can devastate brain development enough that a kid ends up with autism and intellectual disabilities, as can certain genetic disorders and developmental disorders of the brain in general).

Some of us, however, would argue (whether from a Christian sense of "Whatever you do for the least among you, you also do for me", a religious obligation from the other Abrahamic religions and from non-Abrahamic religions that one should care for the helpless and least-fortunate, or even a plain old secular-humanist-atheist ideal that Decent People Look Out For Those Who Can't Help Themselves) that--at least in a society where we have the ability and resources to do so--the decent thing is to care for those who can't help themselves, yes, even if it is expensive and even if they never will live independently.

(Yes, I know there are cultures who apparently did infanticide of children with disabilities. In almost 100% of those cases, the kids were born to cultures which had very limited resources (the Inuit and certain South American First Nations) or were extremely militarised and may have suffered a resource deficit as a result (the Spartans, and there is some controversy over whether they practiced infanticide). However, I would note that most Farkers reading this do not live in Bumfarkkiaq, Nunavut and are not living traditional hunter-gatherer lifestyles where one's survival depends on how many mouths there are to feed AND how many of the owners of those mouths can throw spears at walrus or shoot arrowheads at caribou to Make More Food Happen. :3)
 
2012-08-18 10:58:15 PM

zez: oh yeah, now it's a

HOT SAUCE THREAD!!!!

I think this is the best all purpose hot sauce that you can pretty much pick up anywhere

[healthyprofessionals.blog.com image 230x230]


I'm sorry, I think you put the wrong picture where the Sriracha sauce picture goes.
 
2012-08-18 10:58:42 PM

Madame Ovary: I have a severely autistic son, and if you don't think this is over the line, then I think maybe you have more to learn about autism.


This is the big problem.

You know all about autism. Most people know next to nothing. I certainly never heard it was a sensory disorder until this very thread.

This teacher was probably just sent to cover the special ed kids because no one else was available and she didn't know what else to do. If the kid was just a normal young kid, the hot sauce on the crayon is still a bad idea, but it would be more reasonable to think hot sauce itself would be an appropriate aversion tool.

Have you considered working in education yourself? The demand for qualified special ed teachers is always going to be higher than the supply of people who actually get proper training. You could change the game and put up good advice for teachers who might be thrown into such a gig without proper backgrounds on the internet.
 
2012-08-18 11:13:29 PM

doglover: Madame Ovary: I have a severely autistic son, and if you don't think this is over the line, then I think maybe you have more to learn about autism.

This is the big problem.

You know all about autism. Most people know next to nothing. I certainly never heard it was a sensory disorder until this very thread.

This teacher was probably just sent to cover the special ed kids because no one else was available and she didn't know what else to do. If the kid was just a normal young kid, the hot sauce on the crayon is still a bad idea, but it would be more reasonable to think hot sauce itself would be an appropriate aversion tool.

Have you considered working in education yourself? The demand for qualified special ed teachers is always going to be higher than the supply of people who actually get proper training. You could change the game and put up good advice for teachers who might be thrown into such a gig without proper backgrounds on the internet.


Good for you for taking the time to read the comments and learn something, that's more than most farkers do. :-)

Autism is indeed a sensory disorder, or at least that's what pretty much all current research points to anyway. They've covered it pretty well here really. Much as a disorder like borderline personality is described as lacking an "emotional skin," those on the autism spectrum seem to lack a sensory skin. Their bodies react to stimuli in a way that those of us with average neurological connections literally couldn't even fathom. That's why there are so often behavioral and social problems associated with autism, they literally get overloaded by just being in certain environments. And in extreme cases, almost ANY environment. It's a really tough illness, in truth.
 
2012-08-18 11:16:53 PM

rosonowski: I really wish she had told me about it, I could have offered more immediate comfort (ie, some vegetable oil and paper towels). Poor girl didn't know water just spreads it around.


Try a tablespoon of bleach in 3 or 4 cups of water. That converts the whatever-it is-that-won't-rinse-off into a salt that easily rinses off. At such a low concentration I've used it on my face and eyelids (don't think for a second that I didn't have my eyes slammed shut while I did it). I learned about the bleach thing from watching Alton Brown.

/not a joke, it really works
 
2012-08-18 11:26:03 PM
Oh come on, these kids will turn out fine...
img37.imageshack.us
...mostly.
 
2012-08-18 11:41:26 PM

Dokushin: FTA: "Officials said she first got jumbo-sized crayons, put them in a cup, then poured hot sauce over them and she later moved them to a bag and labeled it with the student's name, and let the crayons sit for days. "

Is this that new kind of force-feeding that they're trying to outlaw in New York?


Only for cups over 12 oz.
 
2012-08-18 11:48:22 PM

Great Porn Dragon: there's two big things you seem to have forgotten and/or are unaware of:

a) Taste sensation in children is different, and often more sensitive, than in adults [...]

b) [autistic kids are abnormally sensitive]


I'm aware of these things and was mindful of them when I posted.

Again, as in the case of another poster here, if you are of the mindset that any sort of unpleasantness visited upon children is a crime beyond the pale and unworthy of an educator, then we don't agree enough to have a meaningful debate on this. If not, then it's a question of degree. Yes, small children react more strongly to bad flavors. It is unreasonable for you to expect that everyone, including an appropriately skeptical judge, share your belief that merely allowing a child to taste hot sauce is a cruelty tantamount to child abuse.

(Small children, it is said, perceive all pain as life-threatening. A child who has skinned his knee in the playground is, presumably, in an agony akin to an adult suffering a heart attack. While it would be cruel to inflict this suffering on a child, it would take an extreme point of view to say that merely allowing a child to play, and sooner or later skin his knee, amounts to criminal cruelty.)

It is in the nature of autism that its victims appear overly sensitive. That's the hell of the disease. An autistic patient may wail like a damned soul at the agony of being transported to school. We'd all assume that he is suffering terribly, but the world cannot be padded in cotton to spare him. The point of sending him to school rather than letting him remain at home in his comfort zone playing with door knobs all day is to get him to cope with the world of the senses, as painful as that may be for him. Some things that you stick in your mouth taste bad. You spit them out and remember not to eat them again. Normal kids and autistic kids are sitting on floors around the world and learning that lesson at this very moment.

By your reasoning it would be cruel -- criminally cruel and cause for dismissal -- to feed the child a salad with radishes in it. Let's say the kid is used to eating salads. Even normal people find radishes wickedly hot and bitter. Perhaps his autistic brain is wracked with agony at the taste of a radish, but this is how normals learn to spit the damned things out, and the autistic kid needs to learn this too, even if the lesson is harder on him.
 
2012-08-18 11:56:12 PM

ShannonKW: Great Porn Dragon: there's two big things you seem to have forgotten and/or are unaware of:

a) Taste sensation in children is different, and often more sensitive, than in adults [...]

b) [autistic kids are abnormally sensitive]

I'm aware of these things and was mindful of them when I posted.

Again, as in the case of another poster here, if you are of the mindset that any sort of unpleasantness visited upon children is a crime beyond the pale and unworthy of an educator, then we don't agree enough to have a meaningful debate on this. If not, then it's a question of degree. Yes, small children react more strongly to bad flavors. It is unreasonable for you to expect that everyone, including an appropriately skeptical judge, share your belief that merely allowing a child to taste hot sauce is a cruelty tantamount to child abuse.

(Small children, it is said, perceive all pain as life-threatening. A child who has skinned his knee in the playground is, presumably, in an agony akin to an adult suffering a heart attack. While it would be cruel to inflict this suffering on a child, it would take an extreme point of view to say that merely allowing a child to play, and sooner or later skin his knee, amounts to criminal cruelty.)

It is in the nature of autism that its victims appear overly sensitive. That's the hell of the disease. An autistic patient may wail like a damned soul at the agony of being transported to school. We'd all assume that he is suffering terribly, but the world cannot be padded in cotton to spare him. The point of sending him to school rather than letting him remain at home in his comfort zone playing with door knobs all day is to get him to cope with the world of the senses, as painful as that may be for him. Some things that you stick in your mouth taste bad. You spit them out and remember not to eat them again. Normal kids and autistic kids are sitting on floors around the world and learning that lesson at this very moment.

By your reasoning it would be cruel -- criminally cruel and cause for dismissal -- to feed the child a salad with radishes in it. Let's say the kid is used to eating salads. Even normal people find radishes wickedly hot and bitter. Perhaps his autistic brain is wracked with agony at the taste of a radish, but this is how normals learn to spit the damned things out, and the autistic kid needs to learn this too, even if the lesson is harder on him.


That's a very pretty strawman, but it doesn't disguise that you have no idea, none whatsoever, what you are talking about.
 
2012-08-19 12:06:26 AM

PapaChester: jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.

Same working situation as you, but I disagree. You can totally takes the wax eaters crayons away and not the others. If they want crayons, they should not eat them. This is an autistic child, not a vegetable. Training a person with mental issues just takes longer, but you don't give up before you try.


Then he throws a fit and the other 3 get nothing done for the day. Not that it really matters too much actually but it's easier on the teacher.
 
2012-08-19 12:08:56 AM

sleeps in trees: sleeps in trees: sleeps in trees: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: WhippingBoy: This is so wrong.

Everyone knows that you're supposed to feed retards pudding.

Hey, you know it's offensive to actual retards to compare them with autistic kids.

I know "welcome to fark" but this really killed my soal today.

Andy spelling sucks.

fark it. I'm going to flap down the hallway and play lego.... Just fark it.


I'm laughing way too hard at this. Fantastic.
 
2012-08-19 12:12:58 AM

Madame Ovary: That's a very pretty strawman, but it doesn't disguise that you have no idea, none whatsoever, what you are talking about.


What am I supposed to say to that, or am I just supposed to admire your lazy snark?

[ohsnap.jpg]

It isn't a strawman unless you care to show how it misses the point.

Got an autistic kid? I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure you know things about autism that I'll never know. For that matter, the folks dancing around with venomous snakes in church know things about venomous snakes that I'll never know. They're not the only ones entitled to speak on the practice when it becomes a public issue and neither are the parents of autistic children.
 
2012-08-19 12:30:58 AM

doglover: sleeps in trees: Further as a tx that works with these children their senses are magnified.

You're... Texas?


Common term for therapist. Sorry pup - pun intended.
 
2012-08-19 12:34:11 AM
I want to see our Navy Seals go into Cuba and SHUT OFF the brainwave ray they've been pointing at Florida since the 60's. Enough is enough. Blow it up already.

It may be old Soviet technology, but it worked, dammit. Floridians are losing their minds, particularly the older ones, like this judge, who have been exposed to the waves for far too long.
 
2012-08-19 12:35:29 AM

insertsnarkyusername: PapaChester: jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.

Same working situation as you, but I disagree. You can totally takes the wax eaters crayons away and not the others. If they want crayons, they should not eat them. This is an autistic child, not a vegetable. Training a person with mental issues just takes longer, but you don't give up before you try.

Then he throws a fit and the other 3 get nothing done for the day. Not that it really matters too much actually but it's easier on the teacher.


That's not how it works. Take a look at funding and where it goes. Not to the kids who need it but the motherfarking sparkle ponies.

/did I go too far?
 
2012-08-19 12:38:41 AM

Great Porn Dragon: ShannonKW: Ed Finnerty: I guess I understand the initial thought-process behind this, specifically to get the kid to stop eating crayons.

However, the practical application doesn't seem to account for when the kid uses the crayons, then: rubs their eyes, touches other kids, eats something with their hands, etc.

Reality check here people -- you're talking about hot sauce, a common condiment that you put on your food. You're not talking about radium or arsenic or some drug that must be prescribed by a physician. She appears to have tried to deter crayon-eating (crayons, BTW, being something that doesn't belong in your body) by using spicy food. What's next -- are you going to expect firing for a harsh tone of voice?

Admittedly, if you take the headline at face value you'd think this is an outrage, but subby is a jackass, submitting deliberately false taglines is in vogue these days (maybe this is some kind of ironic/hipster thing) and the teacher doesn't appear to have force-fed anybody anything.

Except there's two big things you seem to have forgotten and/or are unaware of:

a) Taste sensation in children is different, and often more sensitive, than in adults; things that are bland to grownups can be unbearably bitter or spicy to kids. (There's a reason that most foodstuffs designed for kids are bland compared to adult food. :D)

b) Autism is now recognised as a sensory integration disorder, and is increasingly recognised as a sensory integration disorder caused by an inborn error in neural differentiation--in layman's terms, people with autism have too many neurons and/or have them too connected to other neurons, and this not only causes sensory inputs to bleed into each other at times (synesthesia) but also can cause even normal sensations to be incredibly amplified compared to what neurotypicals sense (a good way to think of this is that the sensory inputs of people with autism are stuck on a gigabit if not Infinilink connection whilst neurotypicals are still on 10BASE-T ethernet :D).

What this means in plain English--even if the kid was a neurotypical it'd STILL have been quite unpleasant, and the woman did this to a kid in a population where even paprika might feel like a mouthful of bhut jolokia or Trinidad Scorpion peppers. (Some folks with autism who would be in the "lower functioning" classes and less mainstreamed have enough sensory issues with even stuff neurotypical folks consider bland that they pretty much restrict themselves to either extremely bland foods, foods of a certain texture, or both--lest their mouth explode into a mass of pain when eating.)

(And for the record--paprika is considered to be the mildest of "hot" peppers, with the sweet paprika varieties barely having perceptible spice at all.)


Sunlight and salt are still a work in progress.
 
2012-08-19 12:38:49 AM

sleeps in trees: insertsnarkyusername: PapaChester: jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.

Same working situation as you, but I disagree. You can totally takes the wax eaters crayons away and not the others. If they want crayons, they should not eat them. This is an autistic child, not a vegetable. Training a person with mental issues just takes longer, but you don't give up before you try.

Then he throws a fit and the other 3 get nothing done for the day. Not that it really matters too much actually but it's easier on the teacher.

That's not how it works. Take a look at funding and where it goes. Not to the kids who need it but the motherfarking sparkle ponies.

/did I go too far?


Are you autistic yourself, or are you just under the influence of alcohol or some other recreational substance, tonight?
 
2012-08-19 12:42:32 AM

Morning Coffee: sleeps in trees: sleeps in trees: sleeps in trees: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: WhippingBoy: This is so wrong.

Everyone knows that you're supposed to feed retards pudding.

Hey, you know it's offensive to actual retards to compare them with autistic kids.

I know "welcome to fark" but this really killed my soal today.

Andy spelling sucks.

fark it. I'm going to flap down the hallway and play lego.... Just fark it.

I'm laughing way too hard at this. Fantastic.


It's kind of awesome in a nuts way.
 
pla
2012-08-19 12:44:08 AM
sleeps in trees : Psst, crayons aren't a threat.

Psst - Hotsauce won't exactly kill you, either.


PapaChester : This is an autistic child, not a vegetable.

Well then, that answers SchlingFocker's question from early in the thread.
 
2012-08-19 12:47:40 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: sleeps in trees: insertsnarkyusername: PapaChester: jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.

Same working situation as you, but I disagree. You can totally takes the wax eaters crayons away and not the others. If they want crayons, they should not eat them. This is an autistic child, not a vegetable. Training a person with mental issues just takes longer, but you don't give up before you try.

Then he throws a fit and the other 3 get nothing done for the day. Not that it really matters too much actually but it's easier on the teacher.

That's not how it works. Take a look at funding and where it goes. Not to the kids who need it but the motherfarking sparkle ponies.

/did I go too far?

Are you autistic yourself, or are you just under the influence of alcohol or some other recreational substance, tonight?


Nope, sadly I'm normal. I counsel families and do therapy with families with disabled children.

I then, had a babe with autism after the fact. I had a comming to Jesus about my opinions used diagnoses.
 
2012-08-19 12:49:34 AM

pla: sleeps in trees : Psst, crayons aren't a threat.

Psst - Hotsauce won't exactly kill you, either.


PapaChester : This is an autistic child, not a vegetable.

Well then, that answers SchlingFocker's question from early in the thread.


Psst crayons don't burn the mouth. Really are you all functionally retarded?
 
2012-08-19 12:49:42 AM
is this like leaving sweat on your balls so the wife wont wake you from a peaceful sleep by sucking on your man stick in the morning?
 
2012-08-19 12:52:29 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: sleeps in trees: insertsnarkyusername: PapaChester: jpat: As someone who works with autistic students all day, I can understand where the teacher is coming from. Here's the situation - four kids in a room (we are very lucky, we get small rooms), 3 love to color, 1 eats crayons. You can't take the crayons away from the one without taking it away from the other three. She 'treats his crayons' to make them unappealing. It doesn't sound much different than the nail stuff my brother had to use to stop him from chewing on his fingernails.

It's not evil, but it's not good teaching, either.

Same working situation as you, but I disagree. You can totally takes the wax eaters crayons away and not the others. If they want crayons, they should not eat them. This is an autistic child, not a vegetable. Training a person with mental issues just takes longer, but you don't give up before you try.

Then he throws a fit and the other 3 get nothing done for the day. Not that it really matters too much actually but it's easier on the teacher.

That's not how it works. Take a look at funding and where it goes. Not to the kids who need it but the motherfarking sparkle ponies.

/did I go too far?

Are you autistic yourself, or are you just under the influence of alcohol or some other recreational substance, tonight?


Also, no need to be rude. I did not agress to you, cool off.
 
2012-08-19 12:54:41 AM

sleeps in trees: Common term for therapist.


It's not a term, it's an abbreviation. You can't pronounce "tx" There's no phonetic component without a vowel.
 
pla
2012-08-19 12:55:07 AM
sleeps in trees : Psst crayons don't burn the mouth. Really are you all functionally retarded?

Uh, neither does hot sauce if you don't eat the goddamned crayons. Thus the whole point of the exercise - Use crayon, pretty colors. Chew crayon, discomfort. Repeat until lesson learned.

Hell, we use bitter spray on plants to keep the cats away from them, and the cats get the point. If TFA involves someone so low functioning that they make Mr. Fluffy look like Einstein, perhaps that kid would do better somewhere other than a classroom?
 
2012-08-19 12:58:37 AM

doglover: sleeps in trees: Common term for therapist.

It's not a term, it's an abbreviation. You can't pronounce "tx" There's no phonetic component without a vowel.


You are funny.. In the nicest way I call my staff tx. Sorry. Pronounced " where is the tee-ex".
 
2012-08-19 01:01:16 AM

doglover: sleeps in trees: Common term for therapist.

It's not a term, it's an abbreviation. You can't pronounce "tx" There's no phonetic component without a vowel.


But it's really fun to try. Seriously, try it. Tx....tcks....ttttttttxxxxxxx...
 
2012-08-19 01:03:08 AM

doglover: sleeps in trees: Further as a tx that works with these children their senses are magnified.

You're... Texas?


No, their (the children's) senses are.
 
2012-08-19 01:04:24 AM

sleeps in trees: doglover: sleeps in trees: Common term for therapist.

It's not a term, it's an abbreviation. You can't pronounce "tx" There's no phonetic component without a vowel.

You are funny.. In the nicest way I call my staff tx. Sorry. Pronounced " where is the tee-ex".


Then it would be T.X. or tee ex or ティーエクス or something.

tx is the noise of a dart piercing something foil covered.
 
2012-08-19 01:06:11 AM

Arthur Jumbles: sleeps in trees: ShannonKW: sleeps in trees: So.... she should let the kids eat crayons?

No, you remove them like all adults do. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

A teacher isn't "all adults." Neither, for that matter, are you.

The teacher's job is to help the kid learn how to use the crayons. She can't do that by taking them away. One of the most basic things the kid needs to learn about crayons is that they belong on paper, not in his mouth. So, she decided to make the crayons taste bad, perhaps on the theory that one is less likely to put a bad-tasting object in one's mouth.

Here's something for you to comprehend: she is accused of making something taste bad -- something that is not food and that she had no duty to preserve the flavor of. Depending on how the autistic kid feels about spicy food she may not even be guilty of that.

Here is something for you to comprehend, she had no right to do that. According to numerous precedence she crossed the line with no education to back her up.

Further as a tx that works with these children their senses are magnified. You have no idea what you are talking about.

The child commonly ate crayons. She had no "duty" to fark with him. If someone did that to a "normal" child's milk you would be outraged. Aversion is now considered barbaric and abusive.

Milk is made for drinking, crayons for drawing. Letting a child eat non-food items seems like child abuse to me.


What?

lgcdn.candyfavorites.com

These are crayons with flavor added. Just because wax lips are labeled as food and crayons aren't makes eating crayons child abuse? That's ridiculous.

I don't know what the big deal is about eating crayons- I suspect they're good for you, in a cleaning-out-the-intestines kind of way. If you want to keep him from eating crayons, however, give him something else to eat. You know those gummy fruit things you can put in a kid's lunch? Get the sugar-free kind. Damn things taste like wax.
 
2012-08-19 01:07:11 AM

doglover: Then it would be T.X. or tee ex or ティーエクス or something.

tx is the noise of a dart piercing something foil covered.


This is an autism thread, not an Asperger's thread.
 
2012-08-19 01:07:13 AM

pla: sleeps in trees : Psst crayons don't burn the mouth. Really are you all functionally retarded?

Uh, neither does hot sauce if you don't eat the goddamned crayons. Thus the whole point of the exercise - Use crayon, pretty colors. Chew crayon, discomfort. Repeat until lesson learned.

Hell, we use bitter spray on plants to keep the cats away from them, and the cats get the point. If TFA involves someone so low functioning that they make Mr. Fluffy look like Einstein, perhaps that kid would do better somewhere other than a classroom?


And you fail at future humanity. You have taken a commOn functioning child ( although lacking a couple years ) and with no knowledge thought they should be condemned.

Here's a challenge: You pony up. You spend a year with a child with a disability. You spend one hour a week, I will pay you 500 dollars.

You can sit on a step,drink with his parents. You will know them.
 
2012-08-19 01:09:36 AM

doglover: sleeps in trees: doglover: sleeps in trees: Common term for therapist.

It's not a term, it's an abbreviation. You can't pronounce "tx" There's no phonetic component without a vowel.

You are funny.. In the nicest way I call my staff tx. Sorry. Pronounced " where is the tee-ex".

Then it would be T.X. or tee ex or ティーエクス or something.

tx is the noise of a dart piercing something foil covered.


I just call them my girls.
 
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