Nabb1: cameroncrazy1984: Nabb1: But, as it stood, the bailout happened, and the unions avoided getting their CBAs voided and moved all the way up to the front of the line, ahead of even secured creditors. They would have been at the back of the line in normal bankruptcy proceedings.

You're mad that jobs were saved in the middle of a recession? REALLY?

Who said anything about being mad? I stated a fact. The bailout gave the unions priority bankruptcy law would not have given them.

You realize most of the jobs saved weren't union right?

Nabb1: Philip Francis Queeg: Pretending like GM resembled an ordinary bankruptcy in anything bu the most superficial way is nonsense.

No, I'm completely aware of the fact it would have been an extraordinary proceeding. Why else would I suggest the appointment of a Special Master?

And where was the Special Master going to get the money to keep GM operating?

MFL: When you don't fix the problem why do you expect a different outcome?

If Obama/GM would have gone through the bankruptcy process how it was intended to (instead of shafting bond holders and giving the company to the UAW) they would be in much better shape. You'd think after seeing this type of reorganization fail over and over again in the 90's with the private steel industry they'd figure it out.


That was the point of government bailouts. No banks were in positions to finance a bankruptcy plan. They were all preparing for massive losses and begging the government for funding themselves, no companies could get any big business loans


MFL: Yeah, and we can watch gas go to 5 dollars a gallon and GM can sell even fewer cars.

Sounds like a plan.


Why do you hate the free market deciding what oil prices should be? You sound like a Socialist.

So maybe Democrats pushing for better fuel standards every year is a good idea after all

/but you really need that 9 mpg pickup truck

Nabb1: Philip Francis Queeg: Pretending like GM resembled an ordinary bankruptcy in anything bu the most superficial way is nonsense.

No, I'm completely aware of the fact it would have been an extraordinary proceeding. Why else would I suggest the appointment of a Special Master?

There simply wasn't any money. How could they have kept running? If they refused to lend the cars to the dealers the dealers would go broke, if they refused to pay their workers the workers would strike, and if they refused to pay their suppliers the suppliers would go broke.

Reorganization wasn't an option. The choices were government takeover or liquidation.

Nabb1: Philip Francis Queeg: Nabb1: Philip Francis Queeg: Pretending like GM resembled an ordinary bankruptcy in anything bu the most superficial way is nonsense.

No, I'm completely aware of the fact it would have been an extraordinary proceeding. Why else would I suggest the appointment of a Special Master?

And where was the Special Master going to get the money to keep GM operating?

I'm sure that would have been difficult. And at the end of the day, if the government had to secure the loan or outright make it itself, I imagine the bankruptcy code would have dictated the priority of creditors.

So really your only beef is that the UAW wasn't completely busted in the process.

chasd00: intelligent comment below: chasd00: auto loans are the new home for subprime/predatory lending, it will collapse just like the housing subprime market. loans that can't be re-paid won't.


Unless you can show auto loans are being grouped into packaged securities with insurance, variable interest rates that shoot up and fraud over qualifications of people applying for loans like what caused the housing subprime crash, you're just making up nonsense.

about that..
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/01/auto-subprime-securities_n_1 0 70328.html


And you have proof that these loans are falling behind? Any percentages or numbers showing how much this practice is expanding? Because from TFA, 15 billion is not that much money

To be fair GM stock is down a lot less that Glenn Beck's ratings over that same time period.

Vegan Meat Popsicle: tenpoundsofcheese: 0bama through his investment in GM, has become one of the biggest outsourcers and job cutters in history.

(that is how it works, right? blame the investor for what the company does).

I guess, but since it was Bush who gave them the money, wouldn't he be the investor who outsourced jobs?

/ in before misused "b-b-b-but Bush!" meme as if the man didn't explicitly take credit for the bailout in own goddamn book

No. Who managed the investment that was made?

but but but not bush.

To be fair, the only reason conservatives are rooting against GM's stock is because they accepted money from the government.

OMG WHY DO YOU HATE GD, HON, LM AND NOC SO MUCH YOU DAMN HIPPIE LIBS?!!?!?!?!?

Fart_Machine: Nabb1: cameroncrazy1984: Nabb1: But, as it stood, the bailout happened, and the unions avoided getting their CBAs voided and moved all the way up to the front of the line, ahead of even secured creditors. They would have been at the back of the line in normal bankruptcy proceedings.

You're mad that jobs were saved in the middle of a recession? REALLY?

Who said anything about being mad? I stated a fact. The bailout gave the unions priority bankruptcy law would not have given them.

You realize most of the jobs saved weren't union right?

yeah, about that.
the non-union people were hosed far more than the union employees
that is why there is a law suit going on

tenpoundsofcheese: the non-union people were hosed far more than the union employees
that is why there is a law suit going on

You sound tired.

tenpoundsofcheese: yeah, about that.
the non-union people were hosed far more than the union employees
that is why there is a law suit going on


And? Is that unfair?

Raharu: tenpoundsofcheese:

0bama through his investment in GM, has become one of the biggest outsourcers and job cutters in history.

.
Best you can do? really?

You sound Tired

Nabb1: Philip Francis Queeg: Pretending like GM resembled an ordinary bankruptcy in anything bu the most superficial way is nonsense.

No, I'm completely aware of the fact it would have been an extraordinary proceeding. Why else would I suggest the appointment of a Special Master?

As you completely gloss over the fact that he said it would have done more than just destroy GM. Once the other businesses in their supply chain (the companies that deal with all of the separate parts that go on the cars) started losing money due to not being paid (as there WAS no one willing to float GM money to deal with bankruptcy, outside of the Fed), it would have been a domino effect that would not only have hurt those supply companies, but many other auto producers.

So what you're saying is, to destroy the UAW, you would rather have seen the entire US automotive industry crash and burn, based on what you are saying.

cameroncrazy1984: tenpoundsofcheese: the non-union people were hosed far more than the union employees
that is why there is a law suit going on


Best response you got?

You sound like a cliche.

You sound Tired.

tenpoundsofcheese: cameroncrazy1984: tenpoundsofcheese: the non-union people were hosed far more than the union employees
that is why there is a law suit going on


Best response you got?

You sound like a cliche.

You sound Tired.

I like how you're so tired you accidentally quoted yourself. Awesome.

intelligent comment below: tenpoundsofcheese: yeah, about that.
the non-union people were hosed far more than the union employees
that is why there is a law suit going on


And? Is that unfair?

According to 0bama's mantra of " Share the pain" it is.

He is favoring his union buddies with the tax payer money.

cameroncrazy1984:
I like ... you. Awesome.

You sound Tired.

tenpoundsofcheese: intelligent comment below: tenpoundsofcheese: yeah, about that.
the non-union people were hosed far more than the union employees
that is why there is a law suit going on


And? Is that unfair?

According to 0bama's mantra of " Share the pain" it is.

He is favoring his union buddies with the tax payer money.

You really do sound tired.

MFL: If Obama/GM would have gone through the bankruptcy process how it was intended to (instead of shafting bond holders and giving the company to the UAW) they would be in much better shape.

Mrtraveler01 If they were to go through the bankruptcy process, there would be no more GM. There were no buyers so either it would cease to exist or be severely downsized resulting in thousands and thousands of people getting unemployed.

If GM goes bankrupt again why does that matter?

A. Throwing good money after bad puts off the problem, it doesn't solve it.
B. Banrkruptcy is unpleasant. So is chemotheropy.
C. Wasting billions of dollars only to inject government ideology to make it even harder for them to compete the global level is insane. Their products are obviously not up to par.
D. A bad investment is a bad investment.

GM shares have lost 49% of their value relative to the Dow which is up 20% since their IPO. Your heart is in the right place, but this is by all accounts a complete disaster and waste of money that could have been handled so much better.

MFL: If GM goes bankrupt again why does that matter?

Thousands of people would be out of work for starters...

Mrtraveler01:

You really do sound tired.

That is the best response you have?

You sound unoriginal.

You really do sound tired.

YoungSwedishBlonde: To be fair, the only reason conservatives are rooting against GM's stock is because they accepted money from the government.

OMG WHY DO YOU HATE GD, HON, LM AND NOC SO MUCH YOU DAMN HIPPIE LIBS?!!?!?!?!?

its not the only reason. GM employs thousands of members of a union that still has some political clout, and GM produces the Volt. the Volt (among other green cars) is an admission that global warming is real and man-made.

AIG is 70% owned by the government, and conservatives leave it alone for the most part. gee.....i wonder why.

We should take advantage of the fact that the government owns a huge chunk of GM. We should build a good solid inexpensive car for the people. A car for the common folks. Maybe a utilitarian wagon. We could call it a Folks Wagon. Who says they are no new ideas.

Seriously. instead of doing a direct bail out the government should have pushed private financial institutions to loan GM the money. They would be much better at helping GM get back on its feet as they would want their money back and with a profit. We did enough for the banks. We should have leaned on them to help GM with a bankruptcy and restructuring. I believe this is the way the Chrysler bailout was handled in the 80s, through the private sector with the government giving loan guarantees. Airlines go bankrupt all the time. It doesn't mean they go away.

tenpoundsofcheese: Mrtraveler01:

You really do sound tired.

That is the best response you have?

You sound unoriginal.

You really do sound tired.

Meh, that's the type of response you're worth.

dumbobruni: the Volt (among other green cars) is an admission that global warming is real and man-made.

That is funny.

All it takes to admit that global warming is man-made is to produce a failure of a car?

Does GM produce any trucks? Does it produce any cars that get less than 30 MPG? Doesn't that mean they admit that global warming is not man-made.

Mrtraveler01: tenpoundsofcheese: Mrtraveler01:

You really do sound tired.

That is the best response you have?

You sound unoriginal.

You really do sound tired.

Meh, that's the type of response you're worth.

Sounds like you are tired.

dumbobruni: the Volt (among other green cars) is an admission that global warming is real and man-made.

Good news! GM admits that global warming is not man-made

Nabb1: It's fairly obvious to anyone with half a brain what was going on there.

Obama thought jobs were more important in the middle of a recession?

tenpoundsofcheese: According to 0bama's mantra of " Share the pain" it is.

He is favoring his union buddies with the tax payer money.


I didn't ask what you think 0bama would think, I asked what you think

Is fairness suddenly a conservative business mantra?

czei: GM stock appears to be following the same trend as the entire auto industry, which was up 30% over the summer, and then down now to wear it was 9 months ago. GM's stock is down, but the P/E ratio is good, around 7, where Honda's is 15, for example.

GM has had a good summer. 19.6 a couple of months ago and over 22 now. Up over 3% just today. I bought in when I a) saw them getting out from pension obligations and b) turned a healthy profit. Eps of 2.71 isn't bad ABD a p/e of around 7 is favorable. Add to that I see the electric car market expanding and I think the Volt is still one of the front runnerd

czei: GM stock appears to be following the same trend as the entire auto industry, which was up 30% over the summer, and then down now to wear it was 9 months ago. GM's stock is down, but the P/E ratio is good, around 7, where Honda's is 15, for example.

GM has had a good summer. 19.6 a couple of months ago and over 22 now. Up over 3% just today. I bought in when I a) saw them getting out from pension obligations and b) turned a healthy profit. Eps of 2.71 isn't bad and a p/e of around 7 is favorable. Add to that I see the electric car market expanding and I think the Volt is still one of the front runnerd

tenpoundsofcheese: No. Who managed the investment that was made?

So you admit it's fair when Obama takes credit for the tens of thousands of jobs that were preserved at GM, Chrysler and countless parts suppliers throughout the country?

Good to know.

But you must be tired and I'm keeping you.

tenpoundsofcheese: Mrtraveler01: tenpoundsofcheese: Mrtraveler01:

You really do sound tired.

That is the best response you have?

You sound unoriginal.

You really do sound tired.

Meh, that's the type of response you're worth.

Sounds like you are tired.

Vegan Meat Popsicle: So you admit it's fair when Obama takes credit for the tens of thousands of jobs that were preserved at GM

This nonsense of "saved" jobs was debunked long ago when he tried to talk about "saved or created" jobs of the administration

intelligent comment below: tenpoundsofcheese: According to 0bama's mantra of " Share the pain" it is.

He is favoring his union buddies with the tax payer money.


I didn't ask what you think 0bama would think, I asked what you think

Is fairness suddenly a conservative business mantra?

Treating lower paid employees worse than higher paid employees who do the same job is a stupid business decision.
"Fairness" is a mushy feel-good term that the left loves to trot out because they don't understand business.

DrPainMD: The only thing keeping GM Lockheed Martin afloat is bloated government fleet sales (which aren't considered as part of the cost of the bailout, even tho the money is coming out of the taxpayers' pockets). Once every government employee has a car, GM Lockheed Martin will fail again.

/let it go. not one more penny of tax money.

What do you know, it still works...

Nabb1: AurizenDarkstar: So what you're saying is, to destroy the UAW, you would rather have seen the entire US automotive industry crash and burn, based on what you are saying.

No, what I am saying is that they changed the rules - basically did an end run around bankruptcy law - to bail the UAW out in such a fashion as they never would have in ordinary bankruptcy. It's fairly obvious to anyone with half a brain what was going on there. If it was simply a matter of the government willing to stand in where ordinary lenders would not have, then why did they not follow the ordinary priority of creditors? (Rhetorical question. We all know the answer to that one.)

On the plus side, people in the future will take such things into account before investing in certain companies.

Nabb1: cameroncrazy1984: Nabb1: It's fairly obvious to anyone with half a brain what was going on there.

Obama thought jobs were more important in the middle of a recession?

You clearly have no understanding of this, do you? The only thing I can assume is that you are taking my suggestion that it may have been inappropriate to give a very large creditor in a very large bankruptcy priority it would never have had under the law into saying that I would prefer that jobs be lost. Just how are you getting from one to the other? Are you saying that there would have been massive job losses if the UAW and other unions had to go follow the ordinary priority of bankruptcy creditors? If so, could you explain how you believe that would happen? My opinions are not inflexible, so perhaps you might enlighten me.

No, I think you are the one who isn't getting it. Think outside the box (and GM) for just a moment. If GM had gone completely tits up, I mean literally went broke, kaput, out of business, it would have affected their supply chain of other businesses (the ones that supply things like brake pads, oil, gas and other filters, etc.). When those businesses started losing the huge amounts of money that are spent by a company like GM, it then affects their ability to do business (as at that point, they would have lost a huge chunk of business and money coming in). Obviously, this creates a domino effect that would then hurt the other auto manufacturers as well (especially if that lose revenue caused a lot of those support companies to go out of business).

But everything I keep hearing out of you is that you would rather have seen GM go tits up, if it meant that the UAW would have been broken. Even if it meant the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs.

tenpoundsofcheese: dumbobruni: the Volt (among other green cars) is an admission that global warming is real and man-made.

Good news! GM admits that global warming is not man-made

Improving Chevy Volt sales leads GM to shorten summer shutdown

Link

Nabb1: It's fairly obvious to anyone with half a brain what was going on there.

Those with a whole brain aren't taken in so easily by crackpot conspiracy theories.

Nabb1: cameroncrazy1984: Nabb1: It's fairly obvious to anyone with half a brain what was going on there.

Obama thought jobs were more important in the middle of a recession?

You clearly have no understanding of this, do you? The only thing I can assume is that you are taking my suggestion that it may have been inappropriate to give a very large creditor in a very large bankruptcy priority it would never have had under the law into saying that I would prefer that jobs be lost. Just how are you getting from one to the other? Are you saying that there would have been massive job losses if the UAW and other unions had to go follow the ordinary priority of bankruptcy creditors?

Yes. Worse still, it's likely they would have been liquidated.
The UAW and other unions gave up a lot in return for that increased priority of bankruptcy.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-06-15/king-inherits-uaw-pushing-fo r -payback-after-cuts-of-up-to-30-000-a-worker.html
Without the extra priority (which would mean that their pensions would be gone), the unions would have gone on strike, forcing a liquidation. So yeah, we'd lose over half a million jobs, including suppliers and other indirect employment. It was only the threat of pension loss that got them to agree to the concessions in the first place.


If so, could you explain how you believe that would happen? My opinions are not inflexible, so perhaps you might enlighten me.