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(National Review)   Biden's racist "chains" remark is "grotesque and morally illiterate," so vote for the guy who thought blacks were subhuman until 1979   (nationalreview.com) divider line 148
    More: Ironic, Joe Biden, Farrakhan, grotesque, Mitt Romney  
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2395 clicks; posted to Politics » on 16 Aug 2012 at 4:36 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-16 01:05:50 PM
Ugh, horrible headline. I enjoy bringing up past Mormon racism as much as anyone but "not allowed into the priesthood" != "thought to be subhuman". And extrapolating that onto Romney directly is even stupider.
 
2012-08-16 01:12:04 PM
This is an interesting moment in Biden's history. He delivered this comment in a speech, one no doubt vetted up and down by the WH campaign staff. It is provacative, thought provoking, and accurate. Might be worth tuning in to Limbaugh today.
 
2012-08-16 01:12:33 PM
I'll agree that Biden should have chosen better words, and that I think that both sides need to tone down their rhetoric.

But for National Review to be clutching their pearls and fanning themselves on their fainting couch is farking ridiculous.
 
2012-08-16 01:12:59 PM

Lumpmoose: Ugh, horrible headline. I enjoy bringing up past Mormon racism as much as anyone but "not allowed into the priesthood" != "thought to be subhuman". And extrapolating that onto Romney directly is even stupider.


Well it depends on if Romney believes in the original Mormon doctrines, which most certainly viewed black people as sub-human.
 
2012-08-16 01:16:56 PM

PC LOAD LETTER: Lumpmoose: Ugh, horrible headline. I enjoy bringing up past Mormon racism as much as anyone but "not allowed into the priesthood" != "thought to be subhuman". And extrapolating that onto Romney directly is even stupider.

Well it depends on if Romney believes in the original Mormon doctrines, which most certainly viewed black people as sub-human.


Modern day Christians believe in different parts of the bible depending on how they feel that day. Even though Romney's religion is younger, he's still entitled to the same loose interpretation of his own dogma.
 
2012-08-16 01:18:07 PM
But the NRO is A-OK with Allen West.

Faux outrage.
 
2012-08-16 01:21:15 PM

Diogenes: But the NRO is A-OK with Allen West.


Well, yeah. Everybody like Batman!
 
2012-08-16 01:22:58 PM
Both sides BAD, vote Communist
 
2012-08-16 01:27:08 PM

Lumpmoose: Ugh, horrible headline. I enjoy bringing up past Mormon racism as much as anyone but "not allowed into the priesthood" != "thought to be subhuman". And extrapolating that onto Romney directly is even stupider.


What are the requirements to serve as a priest in the Mormon church? I'm assuming they are to be a man and to not be corrupt in some way. So by banning black men for priesthood the seem to be that a) black men are not really fully men but children/boys (maybe womanish) b) black men are not men because they aren't human c) black men are inherently corrupt in some way that disqualifies them.

So options A and C don't seem to deny their humanity but they don't seem to be much better.
 
2012-08-16 01:29:17 PM

Lumpmoose: Ugh, horrible headline. I enjoy bringing up past Mormon racism as much as anyone but "not allowed into the priesthood" != "thought to be subhuman". And extrapolating that onto Romney directly is even stupider.


Um, they say a lot more about blacks than simply not being allowed into the priesthood.
 
2012-08-16 01:44:10 PM
You know what else is "grotesque and morally illiterate"? The entire platform of the GOP the last 30-some odd years.
 
2012-08-16 01:51:29 PM

kbronsito: Lumpmoose: Ugh, horrible headline. I enjoy bringing up past Mormon racism as much as anyone but "not allowed into the priesthood" != "thought to be subhuman". And extrapolating that onto Romney directly is even stupider.

What are the requirements to serve as a priest in the Mormon church? I'm assuming they are to be a man and to not be corrupt in some way. So by banning black men for priesthood the seem to be that a) black men are not really fully men but children/boys (maybe womanish) b) black men are not men because they aren't human c) black men are inherently corrupt in some way that disqualifies them.

So options A and C don't seem to deny their humanity but they don't seem to be much better.


Mugato: Lumpmoose: Ugh, horrible headline. I enjoy bringing up past Mormon racism as much as anyone but "not allowed into the priesthood" != "thought to be subhuman". And extrapolating that onto Romney directly is even stupider.

Um, they say a lot more about blacks than simply not being allowed into the priesthood.


It's pretty unfair to stick that to Romney without any actual evidence of behavior. His father marched for Civil Rights while that policy was still in place. You might as well accuse Biden of getting slavery advice from Ephesians.
 
2012-08-16 01:52:16 PM
Hey, GOP, here's some free advice from someone who is not ignorant of the obvious:

Playing the "racist" angle on Obama/Biden WILL NOT WORK...EVER

~You're welcome
 
2012-08-16 01:56:53 PM

Lumpmoose: kbronsito: Lumpmoose: Ugh, horrible headline. I enjoy bringing up past Mormon racism as much as anyone but "not allowed into the priesthood" != "thought to be subhuman". And extrapolating that onto Romney directly is even stupider.

What are the requirements to serve as a priest in the Mormon church? I'm assuming they are to be a man and to not be corrupt in some way. So by banning black men for priesthood the seem to be that a) black men are not really fully men but children/boys (maybe womanish) b) black men are not men because they aren't human c) black men are inherently corrupt in some way that disqualifies them.

So options A and C don't seem to deny their humanity but they don't seem to be much better.

Mugato: Lumpmoose: Ugh, horrible headline. I enjoy bringing up past Mormon racism as much as anyone but "not allowed into the priesthood" != "thought to be subhuman". And extrapolating that onto Romney directly is even stupider.

Um, they say a lot more about blacks than simply not being allowed into the priesthood.

It's pretty unfair to stick that to Romney without any actual evidence of behavior. His father marched for Civil Rights while that policy was still in place. You might as well accuse Biden of getting slavery advice from Ephesians.


I guess i should have pointed out that I was just disagreeing with the first half. I personally take no responsibility for the stupid things that come out of the catholic church. Although I did have the decency to stop showing up to mass. But that was probably not so much out of principle... i just like to sleep in late on Sundays.
 
2012-08-16 02:04:16 PM

Lumpmoose: It's pretty unfair to stick that to Romney without any actual evidence of behavior. His father marched for Civil Rights while that policy was still in place. You might as well accuse Biden of getting slavery advice from Ephesians.


That's why people don't really talk about it much. Even though he did continually give money to this organization, I for one don't blame him for being brainwashed into it since birth. There are much bigger fish to fry concerning Romney.
 
2012-08-16 02:08:11 PM

kbronsito: Lumpmoose: kbronsito: Lumpmoose: Ugh, horrible headline. I enjoy bringing up past Mormon racism as much as anyone but "not allowed into the priesthood" != "thought to be subhuman". And extrapolating that onto Romney directly is even stupider.

What are the requirements to serve as a priest in the Mormon church? I'm assuming they are to be a man and to not be corrupt in some way. So by banning black men for priesthood the seem to be that a) black men are not really fully men but children/boys (maybe womanish) b) black men are not men because they aren't human c) black men are inherently corrupt in some way that disqualifies them.

So options A and C don't seem to deny their humanity but they don't seem to be much better.

Mugato: Lumpmoose: Ugh, horrible headline. I enjoy bringing up past Mormon racism as much as anyone but "not allowed into the priesthood" != "thought to be subhuman". And extrapolating that onto Romney directly is even stupider.

Um, they say a lot more about blacks than simply not being allowed into the priesthood.

It's pretty unfair to stick that to Romney without any actual evidence of behavior. His father marched for Civil Rights while that policy was still in place. You might as well accuse Biden of getting slavery advice from Ephesians.

I guess i should have pointed out that I was just disagreeing with the first half. I personally take no responsibility for the stupid things that come out of the catholic church. Although I did have the decency to stop showing up to mass. But that was probably not so much out of principle... i just like to sleep in late on Sundays.


I'll admit that I don't know to what extent racism was ingrained into the Mormon church back then. And the fact that the Catholic Church still doesn't ordain women is really creepy.
 
2012-08-16 02:19:17 PM

Lumpmoose: PC LOAD LETTER: Lumpmoose: Ugh, horrible headline. I enjoy bringing up past Mormon racism as much as anyone but "not allowed into the priesthood" != "thought to be subhuman". And extrapolating that onto Romney directly is even stupider.

Well it depends on if Romney believes in the original Mormon doctrines, which most certainly viewed black people as sub-human.

Modern day Christians believe in different parts of the bible depending on how they feel that day. Even though Romney's religion is younger, he's still entitled to the same loose interpretation of his own dogma.


Extremism on either side (pro religion or anti religion) is scary.

CSB:
My wife attended a white, Southern Baptist church a long time ago when growing up. For some reason, the youth department was more or less allowed to run on its own.

Only once in High School/HS Youth Group did the rhetoric of bigotry rear it ugly head, and a lot of parents were none the wiser. My wife was told by her Youth Pastor, that any music with drums is evil. Reason? Black people in Africa use drums and other percussion instruments for satanic rituals and that their "music," no matter the words being sung (like a praise song for example) is in no way uplifting to God with the use of drums.

In the Book of Genesis (6:4), it says: "The Nephilim[a] were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown."

Depending on your interpretation of the story and translation...it is more or less accepted that these mighty men were fallen angles.

My wife's Pastor - Yep, black people.

My wife dealt with this extremism and racism until about the 11th grade. Only after her family and a few others complained to the Sr. Pastor about the Youth Pastor's extremism and only after he and a few of the Elders sat in on a few Youth Group sessions did they tell him that he was no longer welcome. The Sr. Pastor and the Elders more or less had to apologize to the entire congregation about the loose oversight and promised to do a better job.

My point with all this is that Mittens is a robotic (in my opinion somewhat autistic) elitist. Black, White, Asian, Southerner, Yankee...does not matter to him. Everyone is below him. So I really do not think that he just views Black People as subhuman...if you do not have as much money as he does, you are subhuman, no matter what.
 
2012-08-16 02:28:28 PM
So, NRO is say that people of the world need to unite and lose these "chains"?
 
2012-08-16 02:39:34 PM
There's an interesting discussion to be had here about to what extent a candidate is responsible for the beliefs of an organization he belongs to.

Of course, this being an election year, there'll just be wharrgarbl everywhere.
 
2012-08-16 03:06:05 PM

God Is My Co-Pirate: There's an interesting discussion to be had here about to what extent a candidate is responsible for the beliefs of an organization he belongs to.


There is also an interesting discussion to be had here about to what extent its ok to negligently misrepresent the debate over race in American religion, but since this is Fark, we can't have that kind of discussion either. Submitter's is probably not going to be familiar with David O. McKay, Elijah Able or the fact that the Northern and Southern Baptists originally split over the issue of slavery and never reconciled.
 
2012-08-16 03:06:14 PM
Romney wants to let the, he said in the first 100 days he's gonna let the big banks once again write their own rules, unchain Wall Street. He gonna put y'all back in chains.

It's called "turning a phrase." There was no racial context.

This truly is an outrage.
 
2012-08-16 03:10:57 PM

PC LOAD LETTER: Well it depends on if Romney believes in the original Mormon doctrines, which most certainly viewed black people as sub-human.


This is the kind of statement that should probably carry some sort of evidential citation. Especially since the word "original" is a weasel word---not the least for an organization that is not fixated on "Biblical Originalism" or "Literalism." And especially since something isn't doctrine in the LDS Church just because some president happens to say it.
 
2012-08-16 03:13:26 PM

impaler: Romney wants to let the, he said in the first 100 days he's gonna let the big banks once again write their own rules, unchain Wall Street. He gonna put y'all back in chains.

It's called "turning a phrase." There was no racial context.

This truly is an outrage.


Only Republicans are allowed to use metaphors.
 
2012-08-16 03:15:41 PM

Lumpmoose: And extrapolating that onto Romney directly is even stupider.



Bingo.

-1 for Subby.
 
2012-08-16 03:17:51 PM

Endive Wombat: My wife was told by her Youth Pastor, that any music with drums is evil. Reason? Black people in Africa use drums and other percussion instruments for satanic rituals and that their "music," no matter the words being sung (like a praise song for example) is in no way uplifting to God with the use of drums.



BUDDY RICH IS THE DEVIL!
 
2012-08-16 03:20:17 PM

vernonFL: But for National Review to be clutching their pearls and fanning themselves on their fainting couch is farking ridiculous.


Spoken like a liberal fascist.
 
2012-08-16 03:21:50 PM

Mugato: Um, they say a lot more about blacks than simply not being allowed into the priesthood.


Please, tell the thread all about your extensive research into race in Mormon history that backs up a statement like this. I'm especially interested in your judgement of Armand Mauss's evaluation of sources and the turn away from House of Israel toward universal missionization in All Abraham's Children: Changing Conceptions of Race and Lineage in the LDS Church. Since Mauss's work is widely counterposed with Jan Shipps, I'll also want some evaluation of her view regarding the reorganization of the Church in the 1950's and 1960's as both preparation and distancing from priesthood ban and suspicion regarding Civil Rights Movement and its alleged ties with Communism. Don't forget the debate over the role of Mormon doctrine vs. Mormon folklore.
 
2012-08-16 03:46:31 PM
I find it interesting that people like George Romney, Abraham Joshua Heschel and the Sisters of Selma took on issues of racism in American life with action when their own institutions needed transformation and reform too. Like George, a lot of Mormons, including Black Mormons, laid the groundwork for reform in their own tradition for decades. Both American religious institutions and secular American leftist institutions had and continue to have their own struggles with race--grandstanding like the 101st Fighting Keyboardists to score a few cheap political points ought to be above liberals, but I suppose its not.
 
2012-08-16 04:03:21 PM

Lumpmoose: Ugh, horrible headline. I enjoy bringing up past Mormon racism as much as anyone but "not allowed into the priesthood" != "thought to be subhuman". And extrapolating that onto Romney directly is even stupider.


aren't all mormon men "priests?" doesn't that mean that if you're black, you can't be a mormon? that's pretty farking racist. romney was in his 30s when this happened. i wonder how he felt about it (his dad was pretty progressive on the subject, i believe).
 
2012-08-16 04:30:37 PM
Somacandra brought an A-bomb to a slingshot fight! Nice :-)
 
2012-08-16 04:37:05 PM
Listen, I don't have one of your fancy degrees, but I did have Cub Scout events in a Mormon church, and let me tell you something -- they had carpet on their basketball court. Carpet. Does that sound like the kind of religion you can trust?
 
2012-08-16 04:41:49 PM
MAGIC UNDERWEAR!
 
2012-08-16 04:51:21 PM
First Romney killed some woman, Next he's going to put some people back in chains and now I learn that Romney believes that all blacks are subhuman. So I'm guessing that covers pretty much all African Americans and the majority of Africa. I wonder if he thinks the same thing about the Japanese. What about the Australian Aborigines? Does he think that Caucasians are the only humans? He is one sick puppy.
 
2012-08-16 04:54:25 PM

vernonFL: But for National Review to be clutching their pearls and fanning themselves on their fainting couch is farking ridiculous.


Says the party that turned saying anything phrase that could possibly be interpreted as offensive to their base as a cause celebre into a national sport.

/hope it was worth letting that monster out of its cage, libs
 
2012-08-16 04:55:35 PM
The analogy, although hyperbolic and intentionally racial, is perfect for what the financial industry is not only doing the the U.S. but the Europe as well.
 
2012-08-16 04:55:42 PM

Somacandra: grandstanding like the 101st Fighting Keyboardists to score a few cheap political points ought to be above liberals, but I suppose its not.


Well, we do live in a world where this kind of hyperbole moves an agenda.

/you can tell by my 0 greenlights I am not subby
 
2012-08-16 04:57:07 PM
Lumpmoose: It's pretty unfair to stick that to Romney without any actual evidence of behavior. His father marched for Civil Rights while that policy was still in place.


Good for his father. Really, I mean that with no sarcasm.

Nonetheless, Mitt Romney willfully and devoutly adhered to the very religion that was preaching that policy for thirty-one years of his life. This man was thirty one years old, more than capable of critical thought, and yet he believed that the Mormon stance on Blacks was not just legitimate, but literally divine.
 
2012-08-16 05:00:28 PM
A LDS Elder explained it once to me that when Cain killed Abel, he was marked by God as a murderer. The LDS interpretation of that "mark" was dark skin. Ergo, people of color were Cain's descendant's and thus carried his sin. Which is why until the 70's they were unable to join the Priesthood.

Once the President of the Church had the revelation from Heavenly Father that blacks no longer bore the sin of Cain they could join the Priesthood.
 
2012-08-16 05:00:43 PM

beta_plus: Says the party that turned saying anything phrase that could possibly be interpreted as offensive to their base as a cause celebre into a national sport.


www4.pictures.zimbio.com

I don't see how something like this could be offensive, but some libs are just looking for reasons to be offended!
 
2012-08-16 05:04:19 PM

Somacandra: God Is My Co-Pirate: There's an interesting discussion to be had here about to what extent a candidate is responsible for the beliefs of an organization he belongs to.

There is also an interesting discussion to be had here about to what extent its ok to negligently misrepresent the debate over race in American religion, but since this is Fark, we can't have that kind of discussion either. Submitter's is probably not going to be familiar with David O. McKay, Elijah Able or the fact that the Northern and Southern Baptists originally split over the issue of slavery and never reconciled.


Well, during the last election, Fox News certianly loved to hit us over the head with Reverand Wright. As I recall, the thread was that since Obama went to that church, he was somehow responsible for what Wright believed.

What goes around comes around.
 
2012-08-16 05:06:06 PM
 
2012-08-16 05:07:14 PM
"The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains."

-Karl Marx


It must have been hell for the conservative media to decide whether to go at this from a racist or a communist angle.
 
2012-08-16 05:07:20 PM

beta_plus: cause celebre


France has a socialist president. The only person who would use a socialist language is a socialist, you socialist.
 
2012-08-16 05:07:53 PM

Lumpmoose: kbronsito: Lumpmoose: Ugh, horrible headline. I enjoy bringing up past Mormon racism as much as anyone but "not allowed into the priesthood" != "thought to be subhuman". And extrapolating that onto Romney directly is even stupider.

What are the requirements to serve as a priest in the Mormon church? I'm assuming they are to be a man and to not be corrupt in some way. So by banning black men for priesthood the seem to be that a) black men are not really fully men but children/boys (maybe womanish) b) black men are not men because they aren't human c) black men are inherently corrupt in some way that disqualifies them.

So options A and C don't seem to deny their humanity but they don't seem to be much better.

Mugato: Lumpmoose: Ugh, horrible headline. I enjoy bringing up past Mormon racism as much as anyone but "not allowed into the priesthood" != "thought to be subhuman". And extrapolating that onto Romney directly is even stupider.

Um, they say a lot more about blacks than simply not being allowed into the priesthood.

It's pretty unfair to stick that to Romney without any actual evidence of behavior. His father marched for Civil Rights while that policy was still in place. You might as well accuse Biden of getting slavery advice from Ephesians.


His father also championed releasing tax returns. Perhaps we shouldn't assume Mitt embodies his father's values.
 
2012-08-16 05:07:56 PM

D_PaulAngel: A LDS Elder explained it once to me that when Cain killed Abel, he was marked by God as a murderer. The LDS interpretation of that "mark" was dark skin. Ergo, people of color were Cain's descendant's and thus carried his sin. Which is why until the 70's they were unable to join the Priesthood.

Once the President of the Church had the revelation from Heavenly Father that blacks no longer bore the sin of Cain they could join the Priesthood.


shouldn't blacks had turned white or something then? Or maybe that happened but are Mormons the only ones that can see it? Like do Mormons perceive black people in their true white form ever since the revelation, while the rest of us continue to see them as just plain mark of Cain black? (if so... do Mormons always perceive black people in their true white form or does this only work while they wear the magic underwear?)
 
2012-08-16 05:13:38 PM

thismomentinblackhistory: This is an interesting moment in Biden's history. He delivered this comment in a speech, one no doubt vetted up and down by the WH campaign staff. It is provacative, thought provoking, and accurate. Might be worth tuning in to Limbaugh today.


actually he was mad libbing in an off the teleprompter moment.
unlike Mitt who said that "Obama was a foreigner and didn't understand Anglo Saxon values"
 
2012-08-16 05:14:34 PM

beta_plus: vernonFL: But for National Review to be clutching their pearls and fanning themselves on their fainting couch is farking ridiculous.

Says the party that turned saying anything phrase that could possibly be interpreted as offensive to their base as a cause celebre into a national sport.

/hope it was worth letting that monster out of its cage, libs


Hmmm. "Lipstick on a pig." Accusing Obama of "smearing" Palin in "offensive and disgraceful" comments, the McCain campaign demanded an apology.

libs libs libs!
 
2012-08-16 05:14:38 PM
Biden totally meant economic chains...You know the ones....Those...ughhhh..Chains of Economics!

What an idiot.
 
2012-08-16 05:15:29 PM
This is a very, very stupid thing to be talking about. Ugh. You do know that one of the two presidential tickets wants to institutionalize the upward movement of wealth, eliminate many environmental regulations, destroy the growing sustainable energy industry, and, just for kicks, take away women's reproductive rights?

But yeah, this "chains" comment is important.
 
2012-08-16 05:18:28 PM
Unchain My Heart
Back on the Chain Gang
Unchained Melody

I thought we already cleared this up. "Chains" was used to describe being bound by an elite class. Are all these songs "morally illiterate," too, you dumb farks?
 
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