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(Orlando Sentinel)   Apparently, some companies are just now realizing interns are stupid   (orlandosentinel.com) divider line 113
    More: Florida, Full Sail University, game development, Central Florida, interpersonal skills, University of Central Florida  
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14285 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Aug 2012 at 12:08 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-16 12:12:48 AM
Um, interns are supposed to be trained. That's why they're interns. If they already knew how to do the job, they would be called 'staff', and you would need to pay them to do it.
 
2012-08-16 12:13:51 AM
No shiat, Sherlock

Why do you think they are interns to begin with?

Because they have no experience
 
2012-08-16 12:14:17 AM
You get what you pay for.
 
2012-08-16 12:14:30 AM
Of course interns are stupid; the whole point is to let them be stupid for less money and without any expectation of long term employment.

The less-stupid interns you give them some real-world humility to encourage them to grow into competent workers, who you now have the inside track on. The more-stupid interns you say goodbye to forever.
 
2012-08-16 12:15:14 AM
Stop hiring interns and offer benefits and you might get a better pool.
 
2012-08-16 12:16:15 AM
Stupid interns. How do they expect to get by? My company only hires interns with doctor in computer science degrees with all relevant certifications and 10 years experience in MYSQL and java.
 
2012-08-16 12:16:23 AM
Full Sail officials said their students must complete 30 to 40 hours a week of lab time working with current technology and software.

That should read Full of Shiate officials...30 to 40 hours A WEEK of lab time? I doubt that.
 
2012-08-16 12:20:00 AM
Well we can't all be born with infinite job experience, now can we.
 
2012-08-16 12:23:37 AM
Magnus

What it means to say is they're scheduled lab time every week where the TA doesn't pay attention to the students who are all screwing around with the same stuff they spend 30 to 40 hours a week doing outside of class anyways so it averages out that way.
 
2012-08-16 12:24:02 AM
They're not saying they expect the interns to walk in and be able to do the job.

They're saying that they can't tell that the interns have learned anything relevant to the career path. That's vastly different.
 
2012-08-16 12:24:59 AM
I work for a large tech company. We budget and hire a large significant number of interns and recent college graduates. Our expectations for interns is that we train them do do productive work. We train them to be successful in a rapidly evolving environment. We see interns as an investment int the future, not a profit center. We, as management, take time to train and mentor, provide a comfortable environment, and low stress. By the end of their one year internship, they are prepared to be productive employees, and not necessarily for my company.
 
2012-08-16 12:25:59 AM
Modern corporations seem to hate paying a cent for employee training, even on proprietary systems or methods that only their employees use. There used to be a good amount of money in doing corporate training, either as an in-house instructor or an outside consultant; it's dried up pretty bad since the 90s.

Just another side effect of the short-sighted fixation on this quarter's numbers.
 
2012-08-16 12:27:20 AM
If you paid them a living wage with health care... where am I going with this?
 
2012-08-16 12:29:23 AM

Harry_Seldon: I work for a large tech company. We budget and hire a large significant number of interns and recent college graduates. Our expectations for interns is that we train them do do productive work. We train them to be successful in a rapidly evolving environment. We see interns as an investment int the future, not a profit center. We, as management, take time to train and mentor, provide a comfortable environment, and low stress. By the end of their one year internship, they are prepared to be productive employees, and not necessarily for my company.


That's pretty cool. I'd love to see more companies take (or restart) that approach.
 
2012-08-16 12:29:59 AM
"I don't think a lot of students know what the expectations are of a company, but UCF has given me the skills to teach myself new programming languages and other tools so I can adapt to what I find in the workplace."

That kid isn't a student, he's a an advertising pamphlet.
 
2012-08-16 12:29:59 AM

Lochsteppe: Modern corporations seem to hate paying a cent for employee training, even on proprietary systems or methods that only their employees use. There used to be a good amount of money in doing corporate training, either as an in-house instructor or an outside consultant; it's dried up pretty bad since the 90s.

Just another side effect of the short-sighted fixation on this quarter's numbers.


Oddly, Starbucks is the place that still champions this effort. Internet reports about how there was even a big argument over getting themselves into Disney theme parks because they insisted that Disney's cast members go through it all and Disney, which used to be gung ho about long training programs, didn't want to waste the training time :P
 
2012-08-16 12:30:55 AM

RollingThunder: They're not saying they expect the interns to walk in and be able to do the job.

They're saying that they can't tell that the interns have learned anything relevant to the career path. That's vastly different.



While you're right, I'd thought that's what a generalist education is supposed to be for. The interns don't spend four years being trained on a lathe press; they learn the mathematical/analytical/scientific background and the basic reasoning tools for thir discipline. Artists learn form and perspective, engineers learn calculus and diffy Q, Scientists learn laboratory work, and programmers learn how a computer works and operates. Anyone with the proper background can then go on to learn photoshop, or AutoCAD, or a spectrum analyzer, or a new programming language, once they learn the basics of how such things are supposed to work.
 
2012-08-16 12:31:39 AM

Sim Tree: Um, interns are supposed to be trained. That's why they're interns. If they already knew how to do the job, they would be called 'staff', and you would need to pay them to do it.


If only companies knew this. It's more like:

Oh shiat job opening, just hire an intern
This guy's pretty good I guess but he doesn't know everything. Eh I guess teach him a little bit. WTF he asked to be paid after 6 months of free work? LOL offer minimum wage. WTF HE LEFT? LOL NO RECOMMENDATION next intern please.
 
2012-08-16 12:32:04 AM
This article doesn't really evaluate interns; it shows the disconnect that has existed for years between academia and business.

Every student who has pursued a computer science education knows the professors take pride in teaching students nothing they need to know in order to work in the field. They cannot do so, as there are too many languages and platforms, and technology changes so fast. Comp Sci professors instead give students a strong foundation to quickly learn whatever they need to learn.

Business, on the other hand, says: "We want students fully trained for years on technology that was released to the public four months ago, and if they don't have three years of experience in technologies less than a year old, then academia is failing students."
 
2012-08-16 12:32:17 AM

almandot: Lochsteppe: Modern corporations seem to hate paying a cent for employee training, even on proprietary systems or methods that only their employees use. There used to be a good amount of money in doing corporate training, either as an in-house instructor or an outside consultant; it's dried up pretty bad since the 90s.

Just another side effect of the short-sighted fixation on this quarter's numbers.

Oddly, Starbucks is the place that still champions this effort. Internet reports about how there was even a big argument over getting themselves into Disney theme parks because they insisted that Disney's cast members go through it all and Disney, which used to be gung ho about long training programs, didn't want to waste the training time :P


How much training does it take to pickup trash off the ground anyhow?
 
2012-08-16 12:32:42 AM

Sim Tree: Um, interns are supposed to be trained. That's why they're interns. If they already knew how to do the job, they would be called 'staff', and you would need to pay them to do it.


Yep - that's a company missing the friggin' point. But, I'm not surprised. The idea of internships has changed from "business working hand-in-hand with education to improve students" to "business working hand-in-hand with education to exploit students." Once schools figured out that they could require internships for graduation, and steer their students towards businesses willing to exploit those students for cheap labor, the system broke.

To their credit, some businesses still treat internships as an educational experience, instead of an exploitational experience, but more and more businesses have cast that kind of long-term thinking aside.

RollingThunder: They're not saying they expect the interns to walk in and be able to do the job.

They're saying that they can't tell that the interns have learned anything relevant to the career path. That's vastly different.


FTA: "We want interns that we can roll into full-time positions, but they're not coming out prepared," Bonaccorso said. "We're an entertainment-based website that's expanding, and local colleges should love to work on our stuff, as we need more tech and social-media people."

Actually, that's exactly what they're saying - the "out" in that sentence refers to the school supplying the interns. They're saying that they want interns that can walk in and be able to do a full-time job.
 
2012-08-16 12:35:18 AM
So...
A guy from some fly-by-night tech company that is too insignificant to off-shore code work is complaining about the quality free labor.

well, you get what you pay for.
 
2012-08-16 12:36:54 AM
Internships are how kids with zero experience or skills get in the door of cool companies.

They are also known as "lucky breaks" or "chances of a lifetime".
 
2012-08-16 12:38:11 AM
As a coder I found these two statements from the same guy kinda curious:

"You can go to class and soak up the information, but getting down to coding is how you will really get how it works."

"The interns who don't make it realize this is not like building a website"


Believe it or not, building a website requires...well...coding. If it does any kind of dynamic presentation, it can require quite a bit of coding. He wants his free labor to know how to code but then when they fail he castigates them by saying it's not like coding a website.

I've mentored one intern once upon a time. Pretty much everything they learned in school during the year was a total waste (at least insofar as the work we were doing). You know what a modulus is and can do Fibonacci sequences? That's nice. How about something useful like writing a conditional database stored procedure insert statement along with a trigger to update another table for certain events? No? Damn, that's a shame.

About the only useful skill I observed from any intern ever was a demonstrated ability to think logically and apply deductive reasoning to business issues that can be solved by electronic automation. Turns out, they functioned better as business analysts than actual coders.
 
2012-08-16 12:40:45 AM

Lochsteppe: Harry_Seldon: I work for a large tech company. We budget and hire a large significant number of interns and recent college graduates. Our expectations for interns is that we train them do do productive work. We train them to be successful in a rapidly evolving environment. We see interns as an investment int the future, not a profit center. We, as management, take time to train and mentor, provide a comfortable environment, and low stress. By the end of their one year internship, they are prepared to be productive employees, and not necessarily for my company.

That's pretty cool. I'd love to see more companies take (or restart) that approach.


I have two interns working on a summer project right now to add some features to a an open source software application we are extending for internal use. I have no expectations that they actually complete anything, but I do expect them to learn how to work, take initiative, and tell me how they are going to attack their problems. I think we pay them $20/hr.

One thing that never gets mentioned about intern value, they provide a situation for us to give management opportunities for our junior level permanent staff, and grow their skills. It is all a process. Our employees really are our most valuable resource.

BTW, I work for one of the top ten tech firms. Think Google, Microsoft.
 
2012-08-16 12:44:47 AM
My interns will totally kick your interns asses at beer pong.
 
2012-08-16 12:47:28 AM

Mensan: Business, on the other hand, says: "We want students fully trained for years on technology that was released to the public four months ago, and if they don't have three years of experience in technologies less than a year old, then academia is failing students."


Coincidentally, I turned down a contract opportunity just this afternoon because of this kind of mindset. They were insisting that I be proficient in a framework I, from the outset, said I had never used (but would be willing to pick up) and that was around a year old. I actually know one of the guys that contributes to the framework project and asked him how long it had been out. The contract wanted 2-3 years...he released it from beta about 12 months ago. Because I lacked a "core skill" the prospective contract was insisting I reduce my rate to compensate for my lack of experience.

My email was professional and polite and declined to take the contract. They emailed back asking me to reconsider. I didn't bother answering.

Point is: too many businesses demand skillsets that sometimes cannot even exist. I have flogged this horse for years on a few tech forums I frequent. It will never change.
 
2012-08-16 12:53:06 AM

studebaker hoch: Internships are how kids with zero experience or skills get in the door of cool companies.

They are also known as "lucky breaks" or "chances of a lifetime".


If the intern is not getting paid and replacing the labor done by an actual employee, it's called "illegal."
 
2012-08-16 12:53:45 AM
I grant that the tech sector is far better at paying interns than other industries, but they are still new at this so don't expect a full prgrammer.

Also, the liberal arts college model might not work for tech. Not that the kids shouldn't learn about the broader world (it aids creativity) but most colleges and universities have layers of administration that make adapting to new technolgoies slower.

That said here is my solution: Apprenticeships

If you want a coder, get a stream lined system of coding training. Don't expect the next Mark Zuckerberg to want to be and intern for you, those people will already be launching their own ventures. Sink some money into coding people, build them up, and hey, maybe they'll appreciate it enough to stick around with the company.
 
2012-08-16 01:01:39 AM
Greedy companies gonna greed.

They want all the money, all the workers, and they don't want to have to pay taxes or salary.
 
2012-08-16 01:03:19 AM

craig328: Mensan: Business, on the other hand, says: "We want students fully trained for years on technology that was released to the public four months ago, and if they don't have three years of experience in technologies less than a year old, then academia is failing students."

Coincidentally, I turned down a contract opportunity just this afternoon because of this kind of mindset. They were insisting that I be proficient in a framework I, from the outset, said I had never used (but would be willing to pick up) and that was around a year old. I actually know one of the guys that contributes to the framework project and asked him how long it had been out. The contract wanted 2-3 years...he released it from beta about 12 months ago. Because I lacked a "core skill" the prospective contract was insisting I reduce my rate to compensate for my lack of experience.

My email was professional and polite and declined to take the contract. They emailed back asking me to reconsider. I didn't bother answering.

Point is: too many businesses demand skillsets that sometimes cannot even exist. I have flogged this horse for years on a few tech forums I frequent. It will never change.


Pointless skillsets, too.

If you have a solid education, you can pick up any of that stuff in a couple of weeks in your free time. I've had formal instruction in exactly one programming language, and that was in high school. Since then, I've learned half a dozen more as I've needed them. Same for laboratory procedures and appllied math techniques (though the math stuff requires a much deeper background to keep it from being nonsense rote learning).

I did some of this while making $7/hour as a undergrad. (Side note: Employers need to stop pretendng that they do people favors when they offer jobs that pay under poverty level with no benefits. I have a nice job now, but these days, it's amazing how many places think $25k is a "fair" salary for someone with an MS.)

Choose an employee with solid experience in a narrow field and you might get someone who can do one thing only. Choose someone who is good at learning and you get someone who effectively has all of the skills the company might need in the future.

Expecting MBAs to get this is probably too optimistic.
 
2012-08-16 01:07:49 AM
you guys are taking this article way too seriously. let me break it down for you: lazy-ass report faces deadline, remembers how a buddy who works for a tech company told him recently that their interns suck, makes a few calls until the anecdote is "corroborated." here's your clue: "some business leaders."no studies cited, no statistics, etc.
 
2012-08-16 01:10:03 AM

NetOwl: Expecting MBAs to get this is probably too optimistic.


Expecting them to get anything but personal profit maximization is a little beyond them.
y.
 
2012-08-16 01:12:33 AM

FormlessOne: Sim Tree: Um, interns are supposed to be trained. That's why they're interns. If they already knew how to do the job, they would be called 'staff', and you would need to pay them to do it.

Yep - that's a company missing the friggin' point. But, I'm not surprised. The idea of internships has changed from "business working hand-in-hand with education to improve students" to "business working hand-in-hand with education to exploit students." Once schools figured out that they could require internships for graduation, and steer their students towards businesses willing to exploit those students for cheap labor, the system broke.

To their credit, some businesses still treat internships as an educational experience, instead of an exploitational experience, but more and more businesses have cast that kind of long-term thinking aside.

RollingThunder: They're not saying they expect the interns to walk in and be able to do the job.

They're saying that they can't tell that the interns have learned anything relevant to the career path. That's vastly different.

FTA: "We want interns that we can roll into full-time positions, but they're not coming out prepared," Bonaccorso said. "We're an entertainment-based website that's expanding, and local colleges should love to work on our stuff, as we need more tech and social-media people."

Actually, that's exactly what they're saying - the "out" in that sentence refers to the school supplying the interns. They're saying that they want interns that can walk in and be able to do a full-time job.


And to complete the sentence, interns are STILL STUDENTS. As in, they're still going to class, taking tests, studying, doing all the other stuff a student does. Law internships and judicial clerkships have their interns doing grunt work and filing motions at the best of them, and grunt work and clerical crap at the worst; but one thing they all remember is what law school was like. Tell your internship you need a week off because you've got a Business Administration final, and they'll be "fine, whatever, go study, see you when you get back." It sounds to me like these businesses are expecting full time workers who have nothing else to do and can't figure why their interns might not be 100% invested in the work during midterms.
 
2012-08-16 01:16:15 AM
To Fry cook, or not to Fry cook, This is the Question!
 
2012-08-16 01:18:09 AM
If you're not paying someone, don't expect too much in the way of effort.
Paid training (the way it used to be) nets better results. Too many corporations take advantage of a sh*t job market by getting desperate young people with no experience to work for free just so they can have something on their resume.
Zero equals zero. You get what you pay for.
 
2012-08-16 01:24:18 AM

ricochet4: you guys are taking this article way too seriously. let me break it down for you: lazy-ass report faces deadline, remembers how a buddy who works for a tech company told him recently that their interns suck, makes a few calls until the anecdote is "corroborated." here's your clue: "some business leaders."no studies cited, no statistics, etc.


Everything doesn't HAVE to have a detailed in-depth multi-million dollar 50-year longitudinal study before someone can offer an opinion on it.
 
2012-08-16 01:25:27 AM

Harry_Seldon: I work for a large tech company. We budget and hire a large significant number of interns and recent college graduates. Our expectations for interns is that we train them do do productive work. We train them to be successful in a rapidly evolving environment. We see interns as an investment int the future, not a profit center. We, as management, take time to train and mentor, provide a comfortable environment, and low stress. By the end of their one year internship, they are prepared to be productive employees, and not necessarily for my company.


Nice presentation, so how does that work out in PRACTICE?
 
2012-08-16 01:27:52 AM
I work for a large investment firm. Apart from me, we are staffed entirely with unpaid interns. I just keep telling them that someday they might make partner.
 
2012-08-16 01:30:28 AM
not all interns are stupid....

take this (not so recent) IIT graduate as an example:

http://www.dilbert.com/fast/2003-09-16/  
www.dilbert.com
 
2012-08-16 01:31:36 AM
I think you people are making light of this, Interns DON'T get Paid and Business Owners are greedy sacks of Donkey Semen!
 
2012-08-16 01:41:29 AM
First off, big difference (jeez, at least I hope) beween programmer interns and other sectors cause .. well, I mean, we pay our interns what you'd get if we hired you out of college, and yes, that includes the heath plan (on top of Canada's healthcare.)

And we get some pretty kick ass interns. Smart hiring is a part of this, but also I get the impression that any tom dick and harry can open a college in the states. Back at university, we used to have some comp-sci stars get paid 5000 to 10000 signing bonuses for signing with MS, or Sonic Foundry, or some of the other big dev houses of the day. But this co-op program was 4 months of school, 4 months of work, not intersection except for an end of work term report on a particular r&d subject or project you worked on. These were companies that understood that if you make the intern like his life at that company, when he graduates, guess who he wants to work for? This is an angle of competition that seems lost on a lot of hack shops.

The base salary for any intern at any company I ever worked at was 40K. I'd tell any student who can't find a living wage in internship that either they're either in the wrong place at the wrong time, or they havn't figured out how to jump off the page to get hired.

I failed out of university, but by that time, I had 2 years of work experience and like a lot of other tech folks speaking out here, if you can't teach yourself a little, school and work won't teach you a lot. Anyone saying you can't get a full programmer out of a first year engineering or comp-sci student is not expecting enough - likely cause they can't pay enough.
 
2012-08-16 01:42:06 AM

rewind2846: If you're not paying someone, don't expect too much in the way of effort.
Paid training (the way it used to be) nets better results. Too many corporations take advantage of a sh*t job market by getting desperate young people with no experience to work for free just so they can have something on their resume.
Zero equals zero. You get what you pay for.


Yep.
 
2012-08-16 01:47:31 AM

fragMasterFlash: My interns will totally kick your interns asses at beer pong.


Not if mine is wearing a low cut v-neck.....unless of course your interns just happen to be gay.
 
2012-08-16 01:48:22 AM

craig328: As a coder I found these two statements from the same guy kinda curious:

"You can go to class and soak up the information, but getting down to coding is how you will really get how it works."

"The interns who don't make it realize this is not like building a website"

Believe it or not, building a website requires...well...coding. If it does any kind of dynamic presentation, it can require quite a bit of coding. He wants his free labor to know how to code but then when they fail he castigates them by saying it's not like coding a website.

I've mentored one intern once upon a time. Pretty much everything they learned in school during the year was a total waste (at least insofar as the work we were doing). You know what a modulus is and can do Fibonacci sequences? That's nice. How about something useful like writing a conditional database stored procedure insert statement along with a trigger to update another table for certain events? No? Damn, that's a shame.

About the only useful skill I observed from any intern ever was a demonstrated ability to think logically and apply deductive reasoning to business issues that can be solved by electronic automation. Turns out, they functioned better as business analysts than actual coders.


Schools have gotten better at the practical side of it, but I'd still argue that a good foundation in math is what lets, let's say, a database programmer know why the query he or she just wrote will be slow as shiat. But it's hard to fault students for not running linux/mysql at home for fun or not having a commercial license for [insert enterprise db solutions here]. As in, I think you'd be stupid to look to comp-sci students for database grunt work.
 
2012-08-16 01:51:31 AM

Bondith: "I don't think a lot of students know what the expectations are of a company, but UCF has given me the skills to teach myself new programming languages and other tools so I can adapt to what I find in the workplace."

That kid isn't a student, he's a an advertising pamphlet.


That also sounds like exactly the sort of shiat people spout at job interviews.
 
2012-08-16 01:52:14 AM

Ambivalence: Harry_Seldon: I work for a large tech company. We budget and hire a large significant number of interns and recent college graduates. Our expectations for interns is that we train them do do productive work. We train them to be successful in a rapidly evolving environment. We see interns as an investment int the future, not a profit center. We, as management, take time to train and mentor, provide a comfortable environment, and low stress. By the end of their one year internship, they are prepared to be productive employees, and not necessarily for my company.

Nice presentation, so how does that work out in PRACTICE?


It works out as it is supposed to work. We provide them a 3 - 18 months of employment doing entry level type work. They go off, and start their careers or continue education. Then we invite the next group based on needs and budget.

We recently had a group of interns working on their Ph.d. doing ground breaking wireless networking stuff I can't even begin to understand. I had another group finish doing validation work, and they learned how a brand new product gets tested and ready for market. I got a couple working on extending features to a prototype tracking system. I am looking to budget a few for next calendar year to create some source code management administration wrappers.

I actually look for projects that are suitable for interns, not hire interns to do work. We have wide discretion on what we do with interns, but my goal is to make it a valuable experience for them, and frankly, it keeps me connected as we hand over work to a new generation.

Believe, or not, there are people who care, and do the right thing, and understand that we have to propagate the corporation's profitability.

I am just fortunate to be at one of the top tier of good companies on job satisfaction surveys.

However, we still have many of the same issues in getting experienced people, and filling jobs that require very technical, or niche skills. Oregon is clearly not training enough engineers.
 
2012-08-16 02:09:15 AM
It would be just hilarious if companies realized that some of the older people out there, who had been let go multiple times because they cost too much, were actually worth the money because THEY KNEW THIS SHIAT ALL ALONG.

Some people have done this stuff for years, mostly because they like it, understand it, and just plain feel comfortable with it.

I'm one of those people. I'm 52, work as a field engineer, and I run across the occasional kid who sneers at me because I'm an old guy. Heh. Wake up, kid. I'm there on site to fix your shiat ;)
 
2012-08-16 02:10:39 AM
Engineering internships tend to pay pretty well.
 
2012-08-16 02:24:07 AM

Harry_Seldon: Lochsteppe: Harry_Seldon: I work for a large tech company. We budget and hire a large significant number of interns and recent college graduates. Our expectations for interns is that we train them do do productive work. We train them to be successful in a rapidly evolving environment. We see interns as an investment int the future, not a profit center. We, as management, take time to train and mentor, provide a comfortable environment, and low stress. By the end of their one year internship, they are prepared to be productive employees, and not necessarily for my company.

That's pretty cool. I'd love to see more companies take (or restart) that approach.

I have two interns working on a summer project right now to add some features to a an open source software application we are extending for internal use. I have no expectations that they actually complete anything, but I do expect them to learn how to work, take initiative, and tell me how they are going to attack their problems. I think we pay them $20/hr.

One thing that never gets mentioned about intern value, they provide a situation for us to give management opportunities for our junior level permanent staff, and grow their skills. It is all a process. Our employees really are our most valuable resource.

BTW, I work for one of the top ten tech firms. Think Google, Microsoft.


The Foundation?
 
2012-08-16 02:25:14 AM
I love interns. They work their asses off on projects my guys don't have time for during the year, and in exchange they get to say they worked for a Fortune 100 company on their resume. Win Win.
 
2012-08-16 02:25:38 AM
Antagonism
Harry_Seldon
BTW, I work for one of the top ten tech firms. Think Google, Microsoft.

The Foundation?


Well played, sir.
 
2012-08-16 02:28:28 AM

DenisVengeance: I love interns. They work their asses off on projects my guys don't have time for during the year, and in exchange they get to say they worked for a Fortune 100 company on their resume. Win Win.


Do they get paid?
 
2012-08-16 02:28:38 AM
Oh come on, how hard is it to make the daily Starbucks runs that the paid staff demand?
 
2012-08-16 02:29:30 AM
What I'm getting from this article is this: We're not really sure what the local schools are communicating to their students.
But whatever it is, and it is not our responsibility to know or to get involved, they are doing a lousy job at preparing them to work at our highly specialized company for zero dollars.

Even this guy's name, Rainer Flor, makes him sound like a jackass. Such a surprise that this guy, who is trying to screw free work, coding, out of interns, is upset that he isn't getting everything he wants, particularly after his company has gone to such great lengths to not know anything about the local schools.

It sounds to me like this Echo Interaction Group would be a wonderful place to work for free if you are looking to get experience dealing with an insufferable douche bag.
 
2012-08-16 02:29:36 AM

Antagonism: Harry_Seldon: Lochsteppe: Harry_Seldon: I work for a large tech company. We budget and hire a large significant number of interns and recent college graduates. Our expectations for interns is that we train them do do productive work. We train them to be successful in a rapidly evolving environment. We see interns as an investment int the future, not a profit center. We, as management, take time to train and mentor, provide a comfortable environment, and low stress. By the end of their one year internship, they are prepared to be productive employees, and not necessarily for my company.

That's pretty cool. I'd love to see more companies take (or restart) that approach.

I have two interns working on a summer project right now to add some features to a an open source software application we are extending for internal use. I have no expectations that they actually complete anything, but I do expect them to learn how to work, take initiative, and tell me how they are going to attack their problems. I think we pay them $20/hr.

One thing that never gets mentioned about intern value, they provide a situation for us to give management opportunities for our junior level permanent staff, and grow their skills. It is all a process. Our employees really are our most valuable resource.

BTW, I work for one of the top ten tech firms. Think Google, Microsoft.

The Foundation?


♫ Or would you rather be a Mule?...♫
 
2012-08-16 02:36:56 AM

craig328:
Point is: too many businesses demand skillsets that sometimes cannot even exist. I have flogged this horse for years on a few tech forums I frequent. It will never change.


THIS. I've seen a number of jobs ads wanting more years of experience with a product (or version) than it's actually existed for. It's also typical for them to require multiple years of experience in something you'd learn thoroughly in no more than one.

Too many are like this:

Interviewer: "Have you ever driven a Ford car?"
Applicant: "Not a Ford one, but other brands of course. I have a license and a clean driving record."
Interviewer: "Have you ever driven a red car?"
Applicant: "Well, no, not a red one, specifically. Various other colors."
Interviewer: "I see. Have you ever driven to [location]?"
Applicant: "Yes, I drive by there every day."
Interview: "For how long?"
Applicant: "Well... I guess for about 6 months now."
Interviewer: "I see. I'm sorry, Mr. Jones, but we're looking for someone with 3 years' experience driving a 2011 model red Ford to [location]. Thank you coming in."
 
2012-08-16 03:08:23 AM
Are there actually unpaid technical internships? I didn't even realize internships weren't often paid until I talked to other (non engineering) friends about it. I still don't understand how that's even legal.
 
2012-08-16 03:10:57 AM

gerbilpox: craig328:
Point is: too many businesses demand skillsets that sometimes cannot even exist. I have flogged this horse for years on a few tech forums I frequent. It will never change.

THIS. I've seen a number of jobs ads wanting more years of experience with a product (or version) than it's actually existed for. It's also typical for them to require multiple years of experience in something you'd learn thoroughly in no more than one.

Too many are like this:

Interviewer: "Have you ever driven a Ford car?"
Applicant: "Not a Ford one, but other brands of course. I have a license and a clean driving record."
Interviewer: "Have you ever driven a red car?"
Applicant: "Well, no, not a red one, specifically. Various other colors."
Interviewer: "I see. Have you ever driven to [location]?"
Applicant: "Yes, I drive by there every day."
Interview: "For how long?"
Applicant: "Well... I guess for about 6 months now."
Interviewer: "I see. I'm sorry, Mr. Jones, but we're looking for someone with 3 years' experience driving a 2011 model red Ford to [location]. Thank you coming in."


I hate that one. I'm looking for a Chemist job right now. I get asked if I used a specific instrument type, specific model, running specific software. I tell them yes to those three condition, when I was doing research. They blow it off and say it is not industry experience and then tell me that even though I have an MS, I pretty much count like an inexperienced person with a BS that never used the instruments. It really irks me because the industry stuff is easier because it is looking for known stuff like certain known pollutants and comparing with standards. In research I was looking through a reaction mixture of god only knows what for my stuff and having to figure out most of what was there to find out what happened in the reaction.
i40.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-16 03:18:05 AM
Look. No one, especially engineers, knows how to hire anyone. That is the major failing with all these tech companies. I know, because I worked at one. ("Think Google, Microsoft.")

You need to hire people who get the job done and get it done right. You don't need some fark who knows how to traverse a binary tree or little bit-shifting tricks, and you don't need some ass who knows how the .NET garbage collector works.

This is how you hire a competent software engineer:
After asking basic programming questions and having them write very simple code...
Give them a moderately complex piece of Ikea furniture (that you can disassemble again easily) and tell them to put it together. Even better, give them two pieces, one with instructions, one without (I actually have a half dozen variations on this theme, but won't bother detailing them now). If they put it together quickly and correctly, and ask questions when appropriate, they're hired. If they fark around, leave parts out, and put pieces on upside down, show them the door.

You are measuring whether they can:
* complete an assignment
* follow a spec
* bring problems to management's attention
* ask for needed resources (like tools)
* do a quality job
* be creative when necessary

Best of all, it requires no knowledge of any specific computer technology. If the person is weak or disabled, offer to assemble the pieces for them based on their instructions.

While I have never tested this in real life, I know it will work. I know this because I had a PhD roommate who could not put Ikea furniture together without having upside down pieces or leftover parts. I would never hire him as an engineer in a million years; book smarts don't mean shiat when it comes to completing work correctly. Lock him in an office and let him play with his little algorithms, but when I actually need real work done, I'm not going to him.

Also, after developing this idea, I sat down and ran through all the people I worked with, and I knew exactly who would fail to put the furniture together -- all the people who did slow, shiatty work, made excuses, and caused problems for others. I am convinced my method would be far more effective than all the other interview questions I have ever had COMBINED.

(I also have a method for interviewing prospective QA software engineers, but I'm not going into it here.)

Bottom line, you want employees and also interns who can figure out how to complete things, and don't do it in some insane manner. That's all. So don't give them the opportunity to trick you with their credentials, or by regurgitating buzzwords or a book chapter they happened to read, and don't let them prepare by scouring the internet for every brainteaser in existence (which is how I got my job at unspecified large tech company; don't worry, I did real work, which is why they kept me and promoted me). Give them a real, technology-agnostic problem to solve and see how they perform.

Out.
 
2012-08-16 03:38:53 AM
Interns are not stupid.

They are callow, uneducated, inexperienced, unused to the harshness of the real world where things are not perfect frictionless spheres. You just need to expect that.

If an intern is motivated to work, can learn, and is genuinely interested in learning his/her major (these are the big three) we can teach them a lot and will probably hire them when they graduate.
 
2012-08-16 03:39:58 AM

FormlessOne: FTA: "We want interns that we can roll into full-time positions, but they're not coming out prepared," Bonaccorso said. "We're an entertainment-based website that's expanding, and local colleges should love to work on our stuff, as we need more tech and social-media people."

Actually, that's exactly what they're saying - the "out" in that sentence refers to the school supplying the interns. They're saying that they want interns that can walk in and be able to do a full-time job.


I read that very differently. When we hire full on contractors for my team, I would use similar lingo (usually along the lines of "flip to full time employees", rather than "roll into" but it's a similar gist), and I expect to spend seven weeks training people that are already qualified as UNIX, Windows, or Oracle admins with several years of prior experience.

To me his phrase means he wants people with a foundation that will make them feasible candidates in the future, once they complete their internship, but he's getting people that don't have even the most basic fundamentals.
 
2012-08-16 03:51:50 AM
FTFA:
John Bonaccorso, founder of 15 Seconds to Fame, an Orlando-based website for singers, comedians, animators, short-film producers and others, has hired three former interns from UCF but said finding qualified interns is a "mixed bag."

"We want interns that we can roll into full-time positions, but they're not coming out prepared," Bonaccorso said. "We're an entertainment-based website that's expanding, and local colleges should love to work on our stuff, as we need more tech and social-media people."


Let's transcribe that into a different occupational setting and see how stupid it looks:

Gunnery Sergeant Hartman, rifleman of the USMC, a Quantico-based organization for infantrymen, artillerymen, pilots, tankers and others, has hired 80 former recruits fresh from American high schools but said finding qualified recruits is a "mixed bag."

"We want recruits that we can roll into combat positions, but they're not coming out (of high school) prepared," Hartman said. "We're a military force that's expanding, and local high schoolers should love to work on our stuff, as we need more athletic and outdoorsy people."


What makes it look idiotic when an hypothetical Marine says it? Because, unlike our fast-paced businessmen, the gunny understands that you can't just "roll" people out of a school and into the combat zone and scratch your idiot, fast-paced businessman head wondering why they ain't "up to snuff". You have to engage in a mystical, high-tech process called "training". I don't understand what that is, but that's natural as our fast-paced businessmen are smarter than me and they don't know either. Somebody needs to help them. Volunteers?
 
2012-08-16 04:34:01 AM

Gelatinous: Give them a moderately complex piece of Ikea furniture (that you can disassemble again easily) and tell them to put it together.


You could learn a substantial amount about people applying for regular office grunt positions by having them help disassemble one, as well. Speed, precision, basic analysis skills, taking orders, humor, a bit of analness are all appreciated, sloppiness and breakage obviously not.

gerbilpox: THIS. I've seen a number of jobs ads wanting more years of experience with a product (or version) than it's actually existed for. It's also typical for them to require multiple years of experience in something you'd learn thoroughly in no more than one.


I've facepalmed a few times on Dice when I come across an ad demanding those skills for a product with a year in its name. It's 2006 and you want me to have 3 years of experience with Visual Studio 2005 and .Net 2? Really? Do you even read your own copy out loud? Alternately attaching to a product a year or version that has never existed.

But fortunately those are much more rare these days. More commonly, they just don't understand the technology at all, asking for mixed up things like "Apache NoSQL" or "PHP Servlets."
 
2012-08-16 05:14:18 AM
not CSB time/

When I was a graduate student, I had two undergrads doing research hours in my lab at my direction. One I had performing computer modeling simulations. The other, who had experience in chemistry by doing research hours in my lab previously under another graduate student, I had performing suspersaturation precipitation experiments.

Long story short...I blew them both out after one semester because it became obvious in short order that I was never going to recoup the effort I would have put into training them. It was bad enough that when the chemistry one asked me what she wanted me to do, I pointed her to the starting material for the experiment, but directed her to in advance divide the starting material in half...because I knew she'd ruin it. And I didn't want her to ruin it all. Sure enough, she ruined it. How hard is it to heat up a flask of solvent until a material dissolves in it without boiling it over? Too hard, evidently. The other one I had doing molecular dynamics simulations of CO2-derivatized molecules. Of the dozen or so molecules he built into the simulation, there was a grand total of ZERO of them that had the correct structure.

/not csb time
 
2012-08-16 05:25:51 AM

SevenizGud: not CSB time/

When I was a graduate student, I had two undergrads doing research hours in my lab at my direction. One I had performing computer modeling simulations. The other, who had experience in chemistry by doing research hours in my lab previously under another graduate student, I had performing suspersaturation precipitation experiments.

Long story short...I blew them both out after one semester because it became obvious in short order that I was never going to recoup the effort I would have put into training them. It was bad enough that when the chemistry one asked me what she wanted me to do, I pointed her to the starting material for the experiment, but directed her to in advance divide the starting material in half...because I knew she'd ruin it. And I didn't want her to ruin it all. Sure enough, she ruined it. How hard is it to heat up a flask of solvent until a material dissolves in it without boiling it over? Too hard, evidently. The other one I had doing molecular dynamics simulations of CO2-derivatized molecules. Of the dozen or so molecules he built into the simulation, there was a grand total of ZERO of them that had the correct structure.

/not csb time


So what you're saying is that a college laboratory is not the place for undergraduates to learn how to do laboratory work?
 
2012-08-16 06:00:10 AM
But I'll bet that some H1-B would be perfect right out of the box, amirite?
 
2012-08-16 06:12:50 AM
Meh, just do what everyone else does and hire some Indians.
 
2012-08-16 06:31:34 AM

Lochsteppe: Harry_Seldon: I work for a large tech company. We budget and hire a large significant number of interns and recent college graduates. Our expectations for interns is that we train them do do productive work. We train them to be successful in a rapidly evolving environment. We see interns as an investment int the future, not a profit center. We, as management, take time to train and mentor, provide a comfortable environment, and low stress. By the end of their one year internship, they are prepared to be productive employees, and not necessarily for my company.

That's pretty cool. I'd love to see more companies take (or restart) that approach.


It's not the interns that are stupid.

The stupidity is with the short-sighted shareholders that dump stock because they feel that money invested in developing team members and for the future is money down the drain. They want their dividends NOW, dammit!!
 
2012-08-16 06:52:53 AM

DenisVengeance: I love interns. They work their asses off on projects my guys don't have time for during the year, and in exchange they get to say they worked for a Fortune 100 company on their resume. Win Win.


Yeah this. You just have to be selective about recruiting them. I work with a couple of interns who are super-bright and promising. And, we are teaching them more in 15 hours a week than they learned in their undergraduate program. And yes, the experience on their resume is incredibly valuable for them.

Unrelated to anything, I remember once when a very young geeky intern tracked down a special case defect in some of my code. He was almost apologetic, which I thought was cute. He didn't know how to fix it, but we worked it out together in a few minutes. He asked if I wanted to check in the fix (thus publicly taking the credit from him). I laughed and and told him no, you tracked it down, you check it in.
 
2012-08-16 06:54:06 AM

ThrobblefootSpectre: DenisVengeance: I love interns. They work their asses off on projects my guys don't have time for during the year, and in exchange they get to say they worked for a Fortune 100 company on their resume. Win Win.

Yeah this. You just have to be selective about recruiting them. I work with a couple of interns who are super-bright and promising. And, we are teaching them more in 15 hours a week than they learned in their undergraduate program. And yes, the experience on their resume is incredibly valuable for them.


They're getting paid, right?
 
2012-08-16 07:06:41 AM
Let's see, how would you like to work for nothing, or next to nothing, with no guarantee of being trained to do anything useful, or any guarantee of full time employment, the only dubious benefit being "experience" to add to a resume?

Yup, super talented and intelligent people will all jump at a chance like that. Do any of you "genius" business people see the problem with the above?
 
2012-08-16 07:09:05 AM

gimmegimme: They're getting paid, right?


Yes, of course. They are on a graduated scale, just like staff engineers. The interns with a BS to their name and working on a master's get paid more than the undergrad interns.

And every single one of the will tell you they want the experience far more than they want the pay. The best and brightest of them would intern for free for this reason. Being able to put a big name organization, and have honest to goodness professional references on your resume when you graduate is worth at least as much as what they are paying to the school for 4 years of tuition. Sometimes more. It will probably be worth hundreds of thousands in salary cumulative over the next ten years to them. It's only a very small percentage of students who have this sort of common sense though.
 
2012-08-16 07:14:28 AM

Fissile: Yup, super talented and intelligent people will all jump at a chance like that


Yes. They definitely will. I have been mentoring bright low paid interns for 15 years now. We generally have stacks of interested potentials from any given "job fair" at a university. We select maybe 2 out of hundreds each year who want in in the door.
 
2012-08-16 07:25:51 AM

ThrobblefootSpectre: Fissile: Yup, super talented and intelligent people will all jump at a chance like that

Yes. They definitely will. I have been mentoring bright low paid interns for 15 years now. We generally have stacks of interested potentials from any given "job fair" at a university. We select maybe 2 out of hundreds each year who want in in the door.


=============

Check your machine, genius.

sarcasmmeter.net

Has it ever occurred to you that it's because of people like you that American business is going down the shiat-hole?
 
2012-08-16 07:28:44 AM
I've never understood interns. You take out massive loans to go to school, then take a job where you're not even paid. Why not go the co-op route instead?

I did co-op for 3 years. Sure, I had to take a few summer classes and extend my graduation date a bit, but I came out with years of real-world experience and skills on my resume (not coffee-fetching and advanced copier operation) and money in the bank.
 
2012-08-16 07:36:02 AM
gerbilpox:

Too many are like this:

Interviewer: "Have you ever driven a Ford car?"
Applicant: "Not a Ford one, but other brands of course. I have a license and a clean driving record."
Interviewer: "Have you ever driven a red car?"
Applicant: "Well, no, not a red one, specifically. Various other colors."
Interviewer: "I see. Have you ever driven to [location]?"
Applicant: "Yes, I drive by there every day."
Interview: "For how long?"
Applicant: "Well... I guess for about 6 months now."
Interviewer: "I see. I'm sorry, Mr. Jones, but we're looking for someone with 3 years' experience driving a 2011 model red Ford to [location]. Thank you coming in."

===============

Years ago, I had the following conversation at a job interview:

Interviewer: Do you have experience with MS-DOS?

Me: I know CP/M.

Interviewer: I'm sorry, we are really looking for someone experienced with MS-DOS.
 
2012-08-16 07:38:54 AM

Fissile: Check your machine, genius.


I saw the sarcasm. I wanted to let you know that what you said is actually the literal truth, and has been for decades.

Fissile: Has it ever occurred to you that it's because of people like you that American business is going down the shiat-hole?


Lol. A growing economy which is the largest and one of the most productive per capita in the world is "going down the shiat-hole"? Let me guess, you aren't getting a lot of 6 digit offers for your amazing creative skills and services, and you are bitter about that. Close?
 
2012-08-16 07:48:15 AM

Harry_Seldon: BTW, I work for one of the top ten tech firms. Think Google, Microsoft.


Youporn?
 
2012-08-16 07:55:47 AM

SpacemanSpoof: I've never understood interns. You take out massive loans to go to school, then take a job where you're not even paid. Why not go the co-op route instead?

I did co-op for 3 years. Sure, I had to take a few summer classes and extend my graduation date a bit, but I came out with years of real-world experience and skills on my resume (not coffee-fetching and advanced copier operation) and money in the bank.


==============

And American businesses think they are being cleaver by exploiting the desperate and stupid for free labor.

Large German Company:

Interviewer: Yes, you seem to have the required education, experience and ability to learn. We will offer you this paid training position. After successful completion of this training position, you will be offered a permanent job at X salary.

Result: German company builds a productive and competent work force.

-----------------------------

Large American Company:

Interviewer: You have a good academic record, but we are very selective in who we choose to allow to work for our super important company. Working for our company is a great PRIVILEGE. We'll offer you the unpaid intern position with no guarantees of any training, or any offers of permanent paid employment. Even if this goes nowhere for you, and for 99.9% of our unpaid interns it goes nowhere, other lesser companies will be super impressed with seeing an internship with our company on your resume.

Result: Super important American companies whine endlessly about how they cant' find any workers, and all Americans are idiots, and government really needs to get off the backs of TBTF businesses and give them unrestricted H1B visas.
 
2012-08-16 08:08:04 AM

ThrobblefootSpectre: Fissile: Check your machine, genius.

I saw the sarcasm. I wanted to let you know that what you said is actually the literal truth, and has been for decades.

Fissile: Has it ever occurred to you that it's because of people like you that American business is going down the shiat-hole?

Lol. A growing economy which is the largest and one of the most productive per capita in the world is "going down the shiat-hole"? Let me guess, you aren't getting a lot of 6 digit offers for your amazing creative skills and services, and you are bitter about that. Close?


=============

Right. I'm sure your super important, TBTF company is super important and too big to fail. That's why you won't mention the name in public.

BTW, the local cops (most are community college grads) are paid an average of $150K. So what's that prove? In the good ol' US of Murica, the correlation between talent/ability and compensation is less and less every year. That's why this country is toast. Need more proof? Just look at the compensation packages for Wall St execs, banksters, and GM/Chrysler CEOs. Like most super important employees, of super important businesses, you equate compensation with success. In the sane parts of the world, people equate competence/talent/ability with success.
 
2012-08-16 08:17:10 AM

Magnus: Full Sail officials said their students must complete 30 to 40 hours a week of lab time working with current technology and software.

That should read Full of Shiate officials...30 to 40 hours A WEEK of lab time? I doubt that.


Okay, Full Sail University is a web based computer art "university".

ww1.prweb.com

Now, what dumbass would invest their time and money with a company under the name Full Sail if the logo then involved an airplane. You know, something that has NO SAILS! They farking picked their logo out of a clip art CD.
 
2012-08-16 08:23:57 AM

Magnus: Full Sail officials said their students must complete 30 to 40 hours a week of lab time working with current technology and software.

That should read Full of Shiate officials...30 to 40 hours A WEEK of lab time? I doubt that.


Kid next store to me went to Full Sail.

/kid can't find work anywhere

wildcardjack: Magnus: Full Sail officials said their students must complete 30 to 40 hours a week of lab time working with current technology and software.

That should read Full of Shiate officials...30 to 40 hours A WEEK of lab time? I doubt that.

Okay, Full Sail University is a web based computer art "university".

[ww1.prweb.com image 442x354]

Now, what dumbass would invest their time and money with a company under the name Full Sail if the logo then involved an airplane. You know, something that has NO SAILS! They farking picked their logo out of a clip art CD.


Full Sail is one of the premier Media and Entertainment universities out there. It's not easy to get into. Yes, they do also offer online classes. But the actual campus is state of the art and a its a tough regimen to get through.

/kid next door went there after military service
//can't find shiat for jobs (his fault of major and career path, I know)
///I told him he should have gone to Apex Tech - got a blank stare (should have known)
////get off my lawn, always wanted those tools you got to keep after your training
 
2012-08-16 08:28:40 AM
I thought the purpose of internships was to get an early start on crushing their optimism, spirit and souls.
 
2012-08-16 08:37:02 AM

Sim Tree: Um, interns are supposed to be trained. That's why they're interns. If they already knew how to do the job, they would be called 'staff', and you would need to pay them to do it.


Weeners and it's absolutely on point. I agree. I work for myself now, but when I was employed as an editor for a publishing company, I would love working with the journalism major interns. The kids were eager to learn and I knew they had a passion for wanting to be in the publishing industry. I had faith in each one to teach them about the editing cycle, how to work with publicists, and more. I saw them as raw talent and treated them with ultimate respect. I wanted them to have the best chance of launching a solid career. And if I wanted coffee, I got it myself.
 
2012-08-16 08:49:31 AM
I run the internship and co-op program at our state's second largest university, so I'm getting a huge kick out of this article and the replies, including the ones that reek with stupidity.
 
2012-08-16 09:01:59 AM
On top of interns working for free, companies now expect them to be fully trained?
 
2012-08-16 09:51:55 AM
some people are stupid.

[romero.jpg]
 
2012-08-16 10:07:56 AM
You farkers suck.

Where are the photos of hot interns at?

If I wasn't at work, I'd post some. I guess I'll have to get my hot intern to post them.

//seriously? Who gives a shiat if an intern is stupid? is she hot? does she fark? NOW YOU'RE TALKING!
 
2012-08-16 10:30:21 AM

wildcardjack: Magnus: Full Sail officials said their students must complete 30 to 40 hours a week of lab time working with current technology and software.

That should read Full of Shiate officials...30 to 40 hours A WEEK of lab time? I doubt that.

Okay, Full Sail University is a web based computer art "university".

[ww1.prweb.com image 442x354]

Now, what dumbass would invest their time and money with a company under the name Full Sail if the logo then involved an airplane. You know, something that has NO SAILS! They farking picked their logo out of a clip art CD.


Logo is ok, I think I remember it being a sailboat a loooong time ago when it was a little tech school.

It's actually a good school with an amazing campus.
Too bad tuition costs 10 kajillion dollars a second, plus breathing-their-air fees.

Orlando AIGA hosts lectures there quite a bit, wish I had such a nice place when I was in school.
 
2012-08-16 10:57:06 AM

Fissile: Like most super important employees, of super important businesses, you equate compensation with success.


Um, wait, I was the one saying that the internship is well worth it despite the low pay. You and gimmegimme were the ones focused on high pay. Lol. Then you completely reverse positions.


Fissile: In the sane parts of the world, people equate competence/talent/ability with success.


*facepalm* Read my posts about interns, low pay and future success, which one is more important, and realize how much you are describing exactly what I said.
 
2012-08-16 10:57:39 AM
Two things:

1) New employees usually have to be trained, esp. if they're just out of college
2) When you don't pay people to work, you get people who either don't need the money (so there's not much incentive to excel) or the dummies who couldn't get jobs or paid internships (which are relatively rare now)

Oops, forgot #3: it's Florida
 
2012-08-16 11:14:09 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how many people will out themselves as complete clueless morons by continuously spouting something about how "interns don't get paid" this far down the thread. Newsflash, it's not 1980 anymore. An unpaid internship is far more rare than a trustworthy politician.
 
2012-08-16 11:31:19 AM
Never do anything for free, except that.
 
2012-08-16 11:31:52 AM

kiwichan: It never ceases to amaze me how many people will out themselves as complete clueless morons by continuously spouting something about how "interns don't get paid" this far down the thread. Newsflash, it's not 1980 anymore. An unpaid internship is far more rare than a trustworthy politician.


or not Link
 
2012-08-16 11:33:12 AM

Harry_Seldon: I have no expectations that they actually complete anything, but I do expect them to learn how to work, take initiative, and tell me how they are going to attack their problems.

...

it keeps me connected as we hand over work to a new generation.


I cannot get over how much you actually sound as if you're Harry Seldon. Rock on.
 
2012-08-16 11:43:18 AM

kiwichan: It never ceases to amaze me how many people will out themselves as complete clueless morons by continuously spouting something about how "interns don't get paid" this far down the thread. Newsflash, it's not 1980 anymore. An unpaid internship is far more rare than a trustworthy politician.


From what I've been reading, it's the exact opposite. Paid internships are less common now, because companies can get away with not paying by telling desperate college students they're getting valuable job experience. I guess you haven't been keeping up.

Nobody said there are no paid internships. But it is definitely not the norm everywhere.
 
2012-08-16 01:05:04 PM

craig328: Mensan: Business, on the other hand, says: "We want students fully trained for years on technology that was released to the public four months ago, and if they don't have three years of experience in technologies less than a year old, then academia is failing students."

Coincidentally, I turned down a contract opportunity just this afternoon because of this kind of mindset. They were insisting that I be proficient in a framework I, from the outset, said I had never used (but would be willing to pick up) and that was around a year old. I actually know one of the guys that contributes to the framework project and asked him how long it had been out. The contract wanted 2-3 years...he released it from beta about 12 months ago. Because I lacked a "core skill" the prospective contract was insisting I reduce my rate to compensate for my lack of experience.

My email was professional and polite and declined to take the contract. They emailed back asking me to reconsider. I didn't bother answering.

Point is: too many businesses demand skillsets that sometimes cannot even exist. I have flogged this horse for years on a few tech forums I frequent. It will never change.


I remember when looking for a tech job after the Dot-Com bubble burst, tech companies were looking for people with several years of .NET experience, which had only been in release for a few months at that point. I was also turned down for a job as a Visual Studio programmer, because I "only" had 5 years experience with VS 97 and 6.0. Nevermind that I had been working with VS97 and VS 6.0 since their release dates, I "lacked" enough experience to work on those platforms, according to the hiring manager...

Management and HR get so hung up on the latest buzzwords, and never actually bother to do basic research on the requirements they attach to job openings. They are idiots of the highest magnitude, and only care about how easy it will be for the company to exploit the new hires.
 
2012-08-16 01:21:30 PM
I cannot count the number of "new technologies" that I have seen in the course of my career that never lasted more than a year. Many of them had one purpose and one purpose only: to seem totally cool to some moron corporate executives, so that they'd drop a million or two on it. Later, when these execs figure out that their new toy doesn't actually do anything useful, they dump it and go with whatever the next salesman is hawking. Another problem is that they all too often listen to the advice of some big-bellied, lard-assed gaming idiot in the IT department, who, since graduating from some mall-based technical college three years ago, latches onto every shiny new thing that comes along, without regard to its applicability to real business needs.
 
2012-08-16 01:38:23 PM

kiwichan: It never ceases to amaze me how many people will out themselves as complete clueless morons by continuously spouting something about how "interns don't get paid" this far down the thread. Newsflash, it's not 1980 anymore. An unpaid internship is far more rare than a trustworthy politician.


Really? I'd like to see a citation or two on that. I read the entire thread, and I see no evidence that unpaid internships are rare. My understanding is that the number of unpaid internships has increased since the 1980s. I would be happy to provide you with a citation.
 
2012-08-16 04:08:25 PM
www.delawaretoday.com

Not stupid. Just apathetic to your needs.

/I know she's no longer an intern, but she was for a couple seasons...
 
2012-08-16 05:42:21 PM

Harry_Seldon: I work for a large tech company. We budget and hire a large significant number of interns and recent college graduates. Our expectations for interns is that we train them do do productive work. We train them to be successful in a rapidly evolving environment. We see interns as an investment int the future, not a profit center. We, as management, take time to train and mentor, provide a comfortable environment, and low stress. By the end of their one year internship, they are prepared to be productive employees, and not necessarily for my company.


In a decade and a half, I've never worked at a tech company that trained or invested in workers. You get hired if you're already an expert on what they're doing, and you get let go when the project ends or they switch to something you're not already an expert in.

I'm jealous.
 
2012-08-16 07:00:16 PM
Companies will, at some point, start training employees again.

Admittedly, I only know this because at some point it's going to be either 'train or die', but hey, whatever.
 
2012-08-16 07:33:47 PM

raygundan: Harry_Seldon: I work for a large tech company. We budget and hire a large significant number of interns and recent college graduates. Our expectations for interns is that we train them do do productive work. We train them to be successful in a rapidly evolving environment. We see interns as an investment int the future, not a profit center. We, as management, take time to train and mentor, provide a comfortable environment, and low stress. By the end of their one year internship, they are prepared to be productive employees, and not necessarily for my company.

In a decade and a half, I've never worked at a tech company that trained or invested in workers. You get hired if you're already an expert on what they're doing, and you get let go when the project ends or they switch to something you're not already an expert in.

I'm jealous.


HP is a good example of what goes wrong. HP used to be a company run by engineers, then it was taken over by the sales and marketing people. HP used to invest in its people, and generated the profits to take a long term outlook on their future. I feel lucky to be at one other companies which can afford to take a longer term appropriate to corporate health, and still has an engineering corporate culture.
 
2012-08-16 08:10:22 PM
This is fairly common in most places today. They want the person at company A who has all the skills they want, but arent willing to train a person to be the person they want. Rarely does one come out of any school, trade, college , barber, you name it, fully trained. You learn tips of the trade along the way.

You can be fairly close in qualifications, but arent considered. Lets say the company wants a guy with 4 years experience, and I have 3 ? What is the huge difference, most likely not much.
I am continually running into that sort of thing these days. No one seems to want to spend a dime on any sort of training, formal or informal. What ever happened to the days of OJT ( On Job Training ) ? Life is OJT.

I know this is becoming more and more of an issue.
 
2012-08-16 08:40:43 PM

Troifan: This is fairly common in most places today. They want the person at company A who has all the skills they want, but arent willing to train a person to be the person they want. Rarely does one come out of any school, trade, college , barber, you name it, fully trained. You learn tips of the trade along the way.

You can be fairly close in qualifications, but arent considered. Lets say the company wants a guy with 4 years experience, and I have 3 ? What is the huge difference, most likely not much.
I am continually running into that sort of thing these days. No one seems to want to spend a dime on any sort of training, formal or informal. What ever happened to the days of OJT ( On Job Training ) ? Life is OJT.

I know this is becoming more and more of an issue.


I don't necessarily think the problem is companies are not willing to pick the a person who will grow into a job. Part of it is the flood of resumes that get submitted for each job. Hiring managers, and HR are using automated tools to "streamline" the process. Part of the problem is the hiring managers themselves. They just don't want their teams to spend time investing in someone. Part of it was the job hopping culture which evolved during the dot.com era as employees themselves created the problem by jumping around right after they got hired to find a slightly more lucrative position.

On the other hand, companies are getting more asinine in their selection process to reduce risk and potential liability. The interview process rarely tells you how good a person is when they need to do the right thing. Character and a work ethic count more for me more than talent sometimes. It really depends on the position. Some positions require a person with more than 10 years experience or a very specialized skill set, like a kernel maintainer. I think the real failure is to expect more of junior level people, and not willing to invest time and resources. I rather have someone with the right attitude and is a team player, than a primadonna whose ego needs to massaged on a daily basis.
 
2012-08-16 08:46:47 PM
How pathetic do you have to be to submit a thread about interns being stupid so that you can feel superior... TO FREAKING INTERNS.
 
2012-08-16 10:22:49 PM

gimmegimme: DenisVengeance: I love interns. They work their asses off on projects my guys don't have time for during the year, and in exchange they get to say they worked for a Fortune 100 company on their resume. Win Win.

Do they get paid?


Yes, fairly well.
 
2012-08-17 09:04:31 AM

Loreweaver: I remember when looking for a tech job after the Dot-Com bubble burst, tech companies were looking for people with several years of .NET experience, which had only been in release for a few months at that point. I was also turned down for a job as a Visual Studio programmer, because I "only" had 5 years experience with VS 97 and 6.0. Nevermind that I had been working with VS97 and VS 6.0 since their release dates, I "lacked" enough experience to work on those platforms, according to the hiring manager...

Management and HR get so hung up on the latest buzzwords, and never actually bother to do basic research on the requirements they attach to job openings. They are idiots of the highest magnitude, and only care about how easy it will be for the company to exploit the new hires.


I've heard (and seen) job desc. idiocy like this a lot.

But has anyone ever directly pointed out to a HR person this? "You're asking for five years experience in something that's only been out for two."
 
2012-08-17 11:58:05 PM

studebaker hoch: Internships are how kids with zero experience or skills get in the door of cool companies.

They are also known as "lucky breaks" or "chances of a lifetime".


Especially available to kids who don't have to work for a living, aka another way rich kids get a huge leg up in supposedly meritocratic America. Most of us can't afford to work for sub-minimum wage while dressing and socializing like upper execs for a couple of years, then go to b-school and re-enter 5 levels above the ground floor.

America is currently closer to a South American country than it would like to admit.
 
2012-08-18 12:21:33 AM

Fissile: gerbilpox:

Too many are like this:

Interviewer: "Have you ever driven a Ford car?"
Applicant: "Not a Ford one, but other brands of course. I have a license and a clean driving record."
Interviewer: "Have you ever driven a red car?"
Applicant: "Well, no, not a red one, specifically. Various other colors."
Interviewer: "I see. Have you ever driven to [location]?"
Applicant: "Yes, I drive by there every day."
Interview: "For how long?"
Applicant: "Well... I guess for about 6 months now."
Interviewer: "I see. I'm sorry, Mr. Jones, but we're looking for someone with 3 years' experience driving a 2011 model red Ford to [location]. Thank you coming in."

===============

Years ago, I had the following conversation at a job interview:

Interviewer: Do you have experience with MS-DOS?

Me: I know CP/M.

Interviewer: I'm sorry, we are really looking for someone experienced with MS-DOS.


That's a real issue in tech jobs outside of major tech corridors. HR applies mid20th century industrial thinking to entire job categories that are nothing like that.

The fact is that some people have fundamentals, some can think on their feet, and an alarming number are filling seats because no one around them can tell if they are full of shiat or not. People with fundamentals might need prompting to learn specific skills, people with smarts might need guidance in fundamentals, best practices,

But this shiat is just so new, how can you trust a formal qualification for a skill that is maybe 5 years old? I can't entirely blame HR, they are just slow and reactive and often staffed by women too ugly to be in marketing. My company excepted.

/sweet and sour
 
2012-08-18 12:26:22 AM
Companies are complaining that the unpaid labor they outsource from colleges while dangling a job carrot aren't very good?

Yeah, fark your companies.
 
2012-08-18 04:15:52 AM

sseye: Especially available to kids who don't have to work for a living, aka another way rich kids get a huge leg up in supposedly meritocratic America. Most of us can't afford to work for sub-minimum wage while dressing and socializing like upper execs for a couple of years, then go to b-school and re-enter 5 levels above the ground floor.


Yeah, my company pays interns about $20/hr.
 
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