foxyshadis: Of course, the fact that the entire therapy basically consists of making you believe that you're a useless loser who has no control over anything

Dunno, seems like if you could control yourself and your drinking, you wouldn't be an alcoholic.

gadian: foxyshadis: Of course, the fact that the entire therapy basically consists of making you believe that you're a useless loser who has no control over anything

Dunno, seems like if you could control yourself and your drinking, you wouldn't be an alcoholic.

Seriously. Someone who hasn't had a drink in eighteen years but REALLY, REALLY wants one has no self-control.

gimmegimme: gadian: foxyshadis: Of course, the fact that the entire therapy basically consists of making you believe that you're a useless loser who has no control over anything

Dunno, seems like if you could control yourself and your drinking, you wouldn't be an alcoholic.

Seriously. Someone who hasn't had a drink in eighteen years but REALLY, REALLY wants one has no self-control.

Having the drink and wanting the drink are totally separate. Addicts and recovering addicts want the drink. The difference between the two is the latter has the self-control to abstain.

gadian: foxyshadis: Of course, the fact that the entire therapy basically consists of making you believe that you're a useless loser who has no control over anything

Dunno, seems like if you could control yourself and your drinking, you wouldn't be an alcoholic.

That's not what the AA dogma says. If you don't agree with that, they have more dogma, about denial that proves you wrong.

jodaveki: gimmegimme: gadian: foxyshadis: Of course, the fact that the entire therapy basically consists of making you believe that you're a useless loser who has no control over anything

Dunno, seems like if you could control yourself and your drinking, you wouldn't be an alcoholic.

Seriously. Someone who hasn't had a drink in eighteen years but REALLY, REALLY wants one has no self-control.

Having the drink and wanting the drink are totally separate. Addicts and recovering addicts want the drink. The difference between the two is the latter has the self-control to abstain.

My point exactly.

Captain_Ballbeard: gadian: foxyshadis: Of course, the fact that the entire therapy basically consists of making you believe that you're a useless loser who has no control over anything

Dunno, seems like if you could control yourself and your drinking, you wouldn't be an alcoholic.

That's not what the AA dogma says. If you don't agree with that, they have more dogma, about denial that proves you wrong.

AA is just as big of a cult as Scientology. They're so science based, that it's actually illegal for a judge to force you to attend their program as a treatment regiment. (Hint: IT'S A RELIGION!)

gadian: foxyshadis: Of course, the fact that the entire therapy basically consists of making you believe that you're a useless loser who has no control over anything

Dunno, seems like if you could control yourself and your drinking, you wouldn't be an alcoholic.

I should expand on that, since you probably haven't seen it: You have no control, can never have any control, will never have any control over alcohol because you are weak and powerless, so the only way to avoid certain failure is to give yourself entirely to the Higher Power. You cannot develop free will of your own, so it's only through giving up your free will to another that you can become clean. (Big Daddy in the sky, generally.) You have to constantly tell everyone how powerless and worthless you are to reinforce the notion, in front of a crowd.

Despite the Higher Power demurrings, though, there are plenty of mentions in the actual books of God and God's Will. Only recently has the word been changed in the official meeting literature, but not the books. They use the term "dry drunk" to disparage former alcoholics who stop going to AA meetings. Just go look around the web, you can find quotes from revivalistic-meetings and their pseudoscientific books (particularly the holy Big Book - not the Bible, that's the name) all over the internet.

It's basically a giant cult that bought the justice system, much like Scientology.

BronyMedic: Captain_Ballbeard: gadian: foxyshadis: Of course, the fact that the entire therapy basically consists of making you believe that you're a useless loser who has no control over anything

Dunno, seems like if you could control yourself and your drinking, you wouldn't be an alcoholic.

That's not what the AA dogma says. If you don't agree with that, they have more dogma, about denial that proves you wrong.

AA is just as big of a cult as Scientology. They're so science based, that it's actually illegal for a judge to force you to attend their program as a treatment regiment. (Hint: IT'S A RELIGION!)

Not sure I agree with the degree to which AA compares with Scientology wrt cultishness. The nearest analogue I can find is JW vs. say, Mormonism: sure they're both cults, but only one of them completely eschews legit medical procedures to save a life. In my book, JW parents are real wackos who kill their kids by refusing life-saving blood transfusions in the same way these Scientologists try to sweat out the drugs of an addict via a sauna.

That being said, AA's independently reported efficacy is questionable, so therefore too is its legitimacy as a principal treatment. Most of its success is in conjunction with professional therapies.

jodaveki: BronyMedic: Captain_Ballbeard: gadian: foxyshadis: Of course, the fact that the entire therapy basically consists of making you believe that you're a useless loser who has no control over anything

Dunno, seems like if you could control yourself and your drinking, you wouldn't be an alcoholic.

That's not what the AA dogma says. If you don't agree with that, they have more dogma, about denial that proves you wrong.

AA is just as big of a cult as Scientology. They're so science based, that it's actually illegal for a judge to force you to attend their program as a treatment regiment. (Hint: IT'S A RELIGION!)

Not sure I agree with the degree to which AA compares with Scientology wrt cultishness. The nearest analogue I can find is JW vs. say, Mormonism: sure they're both cults, but only one of them completely eschews legit medical procedures to save a life. In my book, JW parents are real wackos who kill their kids by refusing life-saving blood transfusions in the same way these Scientologists try to sweat out the drugs of an addict via a sauna.

That being said, AA's independently reported efficacy is questionable, so therefore too is its legitimacy as a principal treatment. Most of its success is in conjunction with professional therapies.

AA TOTALLY fulfills the criteria of a cult. Cults/religions make you believe you are broken and they are the solution. They love-bomb you, giving you a new family to replace the old one that led you astray. They remind you there are BIG consequences for leaving; not only will you lose your "soul," but you will lose your freedom. (If AA is court-ordered, this is literal.) There's the dogmatic reliance on scripture from a divinely inspired founder...it's all there.

foxyshadis: gadian: foxyshadis: Of course, the fact that the entire therapy basically consists of making you believe that you're a useless loser who has no control over anything

Dunno, seems like if you could control yourself and your drinking, you wouldn't be an alcoholic.

I should expand on that, since you probably haven't seen it: You have no control, can never have any control, will never have any control over alcohol because you are weak and powerless, so the only way to avoid certain failure is to give yourself entirely to the Higher Power. You cannot develop free will of your own, so it's only through giving up your free will to another that you can become clean. (Big Daddy in the sky, generally.) You have to constantly tell everyone how powerless and worthless you are to reinforce the notion, in front of a crowd.

Despite the Higher Power demurrings, though, there are plenty of mentions in the actual books of God and God's Will. Only recently has the word been changed in the official meeting literature, but not the books. They use the term "dry drunk" to disparage former alcoholics who stop going to AA meetings. Just go look around the web, you can find quotes from revivalistic-meetings and their pseudoscientific books (particularly the holy Big Book - not the Bible, that's the name) all over the internet.

It's basically a giant cult that bought the justice system, much like Scientology.

Remember though that it's a support group founded before we understood the chemical nature of addiction. Like so much magical thinking, it developed in the absence of scientific understanding, so it's natural that mystical thinking would be a large part of its narrative. That "higher power" is a visualization tool, and it's meant to get the recovering addict to realize there's an element of his physiology that is without his conscious control. If he realizes that and constantly reminds himself of that, he stands a better chance of creating habit-loops that will help him (or her) avoid relapse. Sadly, humans a prone to respond to the anthropomorphization of abstract concepts, hence the god-figure and their relation to it in AA.

BronyMedic: foxyshadis: I've been to the Museum of Psychiatry in Hollywood, and they have a definite point: People playing God have farked up lots of people in lots of cruel and horrible ways over the years, and the lazy docility of the general populace that wants to make problems and differences go away much more than they want to actually understand and help them. Violently enforcing group conformity is basically as human a trait as there is, and the best that can be said about the field is that it's at least one step back for every two steps forward

Uh, no. They don't have a definite point. It's propaganda, pure and simple. Yes, bad - horrible - things have happened in the past in the psychiatric profession. That is why we have the hiarchy and regulation that we do today, to ensure that those things don't happen. What the CCHR, and it's "museum of psychiatry" is, is a way for them to take those events, emphasize them as what modern psychiatric/psychological treatment entails, and take people who are willing to let fear overwhelm critical thinking and common sense to convert them to their cause.

Like I said, at least one step back for every two steps forward. We are closer to fixing more mental problems than ever, but we may be decades or centuries away from doing it flawlessly; the flaws come out every year in mistakes: bad drugs, bad diagnoses, bad prescriptions, bad side effects, bad interactions. We understand so much more but still so little about the brain. We still have doctors and politicians playing God with pet treatments for every malady, and many who succumb to fads and pushy patients based on shaky research and peer pressure.

I know many do the best they can, and many treatments today do wonders for many people with less harm, but doctors truly believed they were doing the best they could for their patients when prescribing electroshock and lobotomy for "hysteria" in what was known as the Age of Reason. Horror stories still happen every day. Times change, people don't; the best we can hope for is that the research today helps the next generation better than the last failed ours.

/I was rather less convinced by their assertion that Ritalin was going to destroy a whole generation, though.
//Maybe WW3 will obviate all of this.

BronyMedic: AA is just as big of a cult as Scientology. They're so science based, that it's actually illegal for a judge to force you to attend their program as a treatment regiment. (Hint: IT'S A RELIGION!)

Sure, but they're free, so your option is paying for other treatment. SOP around here in GA is that if you get a DUI, you will be spending months with these people. To anyone with sense, their meetings are amusing, especially the AWs who usually run the meetings. You gotta kind of feel for the more vulnerable as you watch them get reeled into a surrogate addiction.

foxyshadis: BronyMedic: foxyshadis: I've been to the Museum of Psychiatry in Hollywood, and they have a definite point: People playing God have farked up lots of people in lots of cruel and horrible ways over the years, and the lazy docility of the general populace that wants to make problems and differences go away much more than they want to actually understand and help them. Violently enforcing group conformity is basically as human a trait as there is, and the best that can be said about the field is that it's at least one step back for every two steps forward

Uh, no. They don't have a definite point. It's propaganda, pure and simple. Yes, bad - horrible - things have happened in the past in the psychiatric profession. That is why we have the hiarchy and regulation that we do today, to ensure that those things don't happen. What the CCHR, and it's "museum of psychiatry" is, is a way for them to take those events, emphasize them as what modern psychiatric/psychological treatment entails, and take people who are willing to let fear overwhelm critical thinking and common sense to convert them to their cause.

Like I said, at least one step back for every two steps forward. We are closer to fixing more mental problems than ever, but we may be decades or centuries away from doing it flawlessly; the flaws come out every year in mistakes: bad drugs, bad diagnoses, bad prescriptions, bad side effects, bad interactions. We understand so much more but still so little about the brain. We still have doctors and politicians playing God with pet treatments for every malady, and many who succumb to fads and pushy patients based on shaky research and peer pressure.

I know many do the best they can, and many treatments today do wonders for many people with less harm, but doctors truly believed they were doing the best they could for their patients when prescribing electroshock and lobotomy for "hysteria" in what was known as the Age of Reason. Horror stories still happen every day. Times ...

Agree with me: The CCHR uses their Hollywood Museum to push Scientology ideology on people who are not educated in the history or field of mental health.

Agree with that, or tell me what your crimes are.

jodaveki: Remember though that it's a support group founded before we understood the chemical nature of addiction. Like so much magical thinking, it developed in the absence of scientific understanding, so it's natural that mystical thinking would be a large part of its narrative. That "higher power" is a visualization tool, and it's meant to get the recovering addict to realize there's an element of his physiology that is without his conscious control. If he realizes that and constantly reminds himself of that, he stands a better chance of creating habit-loops that will help him (or her) avoid relapse. Sadly, humans a prone to respond to the anthropomorphization of abstract concepts, hence the god-figure and their relation to it in AA.

Look, I understand the devotion to the cause, but the founder of AA, Bill Wilson, adamantly and constantly stated in his books that it was God's Will and only through God that anyone can be saved. Those books are still considered the foundation of AA today. The program materials handed out at meetings these days omit that part, but the books and higher-up training manuals have it all in plain black and white:

"Sanity is living according to God's Will, rather than one's own."
"That basic ingredient of all humility, a desire to seek and do God's will, was missing."
"Quite as important was the discovery that spiritual principles would solve all my problems."

And a longer quote:

"So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying on our own power. We had to have God's help.

This is the how and the why of it. First of all, we had to quit playing God. It didn't work. Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His agents. He is the Father, and we are His children. Most Good ideas are simple, and this concept was the keystone of the new and triumphant arch through which we passed to freedom."

There's quite a bit more where that came from; the books he wrote are utterly weighted down with it. He does occasionally mention "God or a Higher Power" in passing, but his real convictions, and thus the group's, are obvious.

BronyMedic: Agree with me: The CCHR uses their Hollywood Museum to push Scientology ideology on people who are not educated in the history or field of mental health.

Agree with that, or tell me what your crimes are.

OK, I can agree with that. I knew someone who went in there and later refused to consider going on antidepressants or antianxiety for what was obviously a growing bipolar problem. She wasn't rich enough for Scientology to recruit her, though, and I didn't know for many years what it really was.

BronyMedic: Agree with me: The CCHR uses their Hollywood Museum to push Scientology ideology on people who are not educated in the history or field of mental health.

Agree with that, or tell me what your crimes are.




HAVE YOU RAPED A BABY?

Just because I haven't seen this in years.

The Unfunny Truth About Scientology

gimmegimme: jodaveki: BronyMedic: Captain_Ballbeard: gadian: foxyshadis: Of course, the fact that the entire therapy basically consists of making you believe that you're a useless loser who has no control over anything

Dunno, seems like if you could control yourself and your drinking, you wouldn't be an alcoholic.

That's not what the AA dogma says. If you don't agree with that, they have more dogma, about denial that proves you wrong.

AA is just as big of a cult as Scientology. They're so science based, that it's actually illegal for a judge to force you to attend their program as a treatment regiment. (Hint: IT'S A RELIGION!)

Not sure I agree with the degree to which AA compares with Scientology wrt cultishness. The nearest analogue I can find is JW vs. say, Mormonism: sure they're both cults, but only one of them completely eschews legit medical procedures to save a life. In my book, JW parents are real wackos who kill their kids by refusing life-saving blood transfusions in the same way these Scientologists try to sweat out the drugs of an addict via a sauna.

That being said, AA's independently reported efficacy is questionable, so therefore too is its legitimacy as a principal treatment. Most of its success is in conjunction with professional therapies.

AA TOTALLY fulfills the criteria of a cult. Cults/religions make you believe you are broken and they are the solution. They love-bomb you, giving you a new family to replace the old one that led you astray. They remind you there are BIG consequences for leaving; not only will you lose your "soul," but you will lose your freedom. (If AA is court-ordered, this is literal.) There's the dogmatic reliance on scripture from a divinely inspired founder...it's all there.

Well, recovering addicts are, in their way, broken.

foxyshadis: jodaveki: Remember though that it's a support group founded before we understood the chemical nature of addiction. Like so much magical thinking, it developed in the absence of scientific understanding, so it's natural that mystical thinking would be a large part of its narrative. That "higher power" is a visualization tool, and it's meant to get the recovering addict to realize there's an element of his physiology that is without his conscious control. If he realizes that and constantly reminds himself of that, he stands a better chance of creating habit-loops that will help him (or her) avoid relapse. Sadly, humans a prone to respond to the anthropomorphization of abstract concepts, hence the god-figure and their relation to it in AA.

Look, I understand the devotion to the cause, but the founder of AA, Bill Wilson, adamantly and constantly stated in his books that it was God's Will and only through God that anyone can be saved. Those books are still considered the foundation of AA today. The program materials handed out at meetings these days omit that part, but the books and higher-up training manuals have it all in plain black and white:

"Sanity is living according to God's Will, rather than one's own."
"That basic ingredient of all humility, a desire to seek and do God's will, was missing."
"Quite as important was the discovery that spiritual principles would solve all my problems."

And a longer quote:

"So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by w ...

AA and such does seem to help some people but it is because they want it to, and yes, it is a cult. I went to a few meetings with an ex many years ago. When I suggested that he just shouldn't drink so much I was told I needed to go to AlAnon because I didn't understand. Whatevs.
I have a distant relative that is a higher up Scientologist. IMHO both groups have similiar qualities and requirements.

jodaveki: gimmegimme: jodaveki: BronyMedic: Captain_Ballbeard: gadian: foxyshadis: Of course, the fact that the entire therapy basically consists of making you believe that you're a useless loser who has no control over anything

Dunno, seems like if you could control yourself and your drinking, you wouldn't be an alcoholic.

That's not what the AA dogma says. If you don't agree with that, they have more dogma, about denial that proves you wrong.

AA is just as big of a cult as Scientology. They're so science based, that it's actually illegal for a judge to force you to attend their program as a treatment regiment. (Hint: IT'S A RELIGION!)

Not sure I agree with the degree to which AA compares with Scientology wrt cultishness. The nearest analogue I can find is JW vs. say, Mormonism: sure they're both cults, but only one of them completely eschews legit medical procedures to save a life. In my book, JW parents are real wackos who kill their kids by refusing life-saving blood transfusions in the same way these Scientologists try to sweat out the drugs of an addict via a sauna.

That being said, AA's independently reported efficacy is questionable, so therefore too is its legitimacy as a principal treatment. Most of its success is in conjunction with professional therapies.

AA TOTALLY fulfills the criteria of a cult. Cults/religions make you believe you are broken and they are the solution. They love-bomb you, giving you a new family to replace the old one that led you astray. They remind you there are BIG consequences for leaving; not only will you lose your "soul," but you will lose your freedom. (If AA is court-ordered, this is literal.) There's the dogmatic reliance on scripture from a divinely inspired founder...it's all there.

Well, recovering addicts are, in their way, broken.

And a cult is the answer?

gimmegimme: jodaveki: gimmegimme: jodaveki: BronyMedic: Captain_Ballbeard: gadian: foxyshadis: Of course, the fact that the entire therapy basically consists of making you believe that you're a useless loser who has no control over anything

Dunno, seems like if you could control yourself and your drinking, you wouldn't be an alcoholic.

That's not what the AA dogma says. If you don't agree with that, they have more dogma, about denial that proves you wrong.

AA is just as big of a cult as Scientology. They're so science based, that it's actually illegal for a judge to force you to attend their program as a treatment regiment. (Hint: IT'S A RELIGION!)

Not sure I agree with the degree to which AA compares with Scientology wrt cultishness. The nearest analogue I can find is JW vs. say, Mormonism: sure they're both cults, but only one of them completely eschews legit medical procedures to save a life. In my book, JW parents are real wackos who kill their kids by refusing life-saving blood transfusions in the same way these Scientologists try to sweat out the drugs of an addict via a sauna.

That being said, AA's independently reported efficacy is questionable, so therefore too is its legitimacy as a principal treatment. Most of its success is in conjunction with professional therapies.

AA TOTALLY fulfills the criteria of a cult. Cults/religions make you believe you are broken and they are the solution. They love-bomb you, giving you a new family to replace the old one that led you astray. They remind you there are BIG consequences for leaving; not only will you lose your "soul," but you will lose your freedom. (If AA is court-ordered, this is literal.) There's the dogmatic reliance on scripture from a divinely inspired founder...it's all there.

Well, recovering addicts are, in their way, broken.

And a cult is the answer?

No, but they will make it seem that way. The theory is that you f*cked up on your own and need the power of a group.

"Stacy Dawn Murphy, 20, was found dead in her room on July 19 after returning to the facility from a one-day leave."

You mean to tell me that junkies get day passes from rehab, buy heroin and then overdose on it?

GET RIGHT OUT OF TOWN.

foxyshadis: jodaveki: Remember though that it's a support group founded before we understood the chemical nature of addiction. Like so much magical thinking, it developed in the absence of scientific understanding, so it's natural that mystical thinking would be a large part of its narrative. That "higher power" is a visualization tool, and it's meant to get the recovering addict to realize there's an element of his physiology that is without his conscious control. If he realizes that and constantly reminds himself of that, he stands a better chance of creating habit-loops that will help him (or her) avoid relapse. Sadly, humans a prone to respond to the anthropomorphization of abstract concepts, hence the god-figure and their relation to it in AA.

Look, I understand the devotion to the cause, but the founder of AA, Bill Wilson, adamantly and constantly stated in his books that it was God's Will and only through God that anyone can be saved. Those books are still considered the foundation of AA today. The program materials handed out at meetings these days omit that part, but the books and higher-up training manuals have it all in plain black and white:

"Sanity is living according to God's Will, rather than one's own."
"That basic ingredient of all humility, a desire to seek and do God's will, was missing."
"Quite as important was the discovery that spiritual principles would solve all my problems."

And a longer quote:

"So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by w ...

There's quite a bit more where that came from; the books he wrote are utterly weighted down with it. He does occasionally mention "God or a Higher Power" in passing, but his real convictions, and thus the group's, are obvious

Don't mistake my analysis as devotion; the roots of the organization are plainly religious, but I think it's possible read the AA philosophy in secular terms, especially in light of our evolving understanding of addiction.

I guess what I'm getting at is that AA cultism isn't comparable to Scientology cultism due to the fact that no one's ever died from participating in AA meetings.

jodaveki: Don't mistake my analysis as devotion; the roots of the organization are plainly religious, but I think it's possible read the AA philosophy in secular terms, especially in light of our evolving understanding of addiction.


I dunno, friend:

3) Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

5) Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6) Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7) Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

11) Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12) Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I'm guessing it's hard to go through the 12 steps in a secular fashion when 6 of them are expressly non-secular.

gimmegimme: jodaveki: Don't mistake my analysis as devotion; the roots of the organization are plainly religious, but I think it's possible read the AA philosophy in secular terms, especially in light of our evolving understanding of addiction.


I dunno, friend:

3) Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

5) Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6) Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7) Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

11) Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12) Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I'm guessing it's hard to go through the 12 steps in a secular fashion when 6 of them are expressly non-secular.

I thought they changed it to Higher Power.

AbbeySomeone: gimmegimme: jodaveki: Don't mistake my analysis as devotion; the roots of the organization are plainly religious, but I think it's possible read the AA philosophy in secular terms, especially in light of our evolving understanding of addiction.


I dunno, friend:

3) Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

5) Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6) Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7) Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

11) Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12) Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I'm guessing it's hard to go through the 12 steps in a secular fashion when 6 of them are expressly non-secular.

I thought they changed it to Higher Power.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

isn't a dead addict technically 'cured'?

and just wow - lots of hate for AA in here.... other than court-mandated appearances (which almost never work), AA is entirely voluntary and free.... different groups have their skew on the AA dogma, which works for them, but there are so many different AA groups, pick one that works for you and get your drunk ass off the bottle...

blankmangedeux: isn't a dead addict technically 'cured'?

and just wow - lots of hate for AA in here.... other than court-mandated appearances (which almost never work), AA is entirely voluntary and free.... different groups have their skew on the AA dogma, which works for them, but there are so many different AA groups, pick one that works for you and get your drunk ass off the bottle...

See, here's the problem. You can't really be in AA and follow the steps if you're not religious. But if you're religious, you apparently believe in a God that isn't powerful enough to keep you from getting high. Figure that one out.

gimmegimme: blankmangedeux: isn't a dead addict technically 'cured'?

and just wow - lots of hate for AA in here.... other than court-mandated appearances (which almost never work), AA is entirely voluntary and free.... different groups have their skew on the AA dogma, which works for them, but there are so many different AA groups, pick one that works for you and get your drunk ass off the bottle...

See, here's the problem. You can't really be in AA and follow the steps if you're not religious. But if you're religious, you apparently believe in a God that isn't powerful enough to keep you from getting high. Figure that one out.

God wants you to marry.
that's why he gives you drunk hookups at AA.

gimmegimme: jodaveki: Don't mistake my analysis as devotion; the roots of the organization are plainly religious, but I think it's possible read the AA philosophy in secular terms, especially in light of our evolving understanding of addiction.


I dunno, friend:

3) Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

5) Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6) Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7) Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

11) Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12) Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I'm guessing it's hard to go through the 12 steps in a secular fashion when 6 of them are expressly non-secular.

Again, not saying the roots aren't religious, nor that it doesn't still rely on that, but it is important to recognize that humans operate through imagery and metaphor by and large. Hence the persistence of religious faith in this age of scientific discovery. It is possible to read the philosophy secularly, and apply it in light of the science, but most will tend to respond to the imagery because that's what's natural.

Habits don't change unless we can visualize that change. Telling someone to modulate their dopamine uptake isn't as romantic (or comprehensible) to most as an exhortation to visualize a higher power.

gimmegimme: jodaveki: Don't mistake my analysis as devotion; the roots of the organization are plainly religious, but I think it's possible read the AA philosophy in secular terms, especially in light of our evolving understanding of addiction.


I dunno, friend:

3) Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

5) Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6) Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7) Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

11) Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12) Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I'm guessing it's hard to go through the 12 steps in a secular fashion when 6 of them are expressly non-secular.

Seems like if I were an alcoholic, I could follow the 6 real steps just fine and it would probably be just as effective as the 12 with all the religious fluff.

BMFPitt: gimmegimme: jodaveki: Don't mistake my analysis as devotion; the roots of the organization are plainly religious, but I think it's possible read the AA philosophy in secular terms, especially in light of our evolving understanding of addiction.


I dunno, friend:

3) Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

5) Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6) Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7) Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

11) Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12) Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I'm guessing it's hard to go through the 12 steps in a secular fashion when 6 of them are expressly non-secular.

Seems like if I were an alcoholic, I could follow the 6 real steps just fine and it would probably be just as effective as the 12 with all the religious fluff.

belief in God isn't religious. it just means you think positive and do positive. just cause GOD is a code word for good doesn't make you not part of the group.

gimmegimme: blankmangedeux: isn't a dead addict technically 'cured'?

and just wow - lots of hate for AA in here.... other than court-mandated appearances (which almost never work), AA is entirely voluntary and free.... different groups have their skew on the AA dogma, which works for them, but there are so many different AA groups, pick one that works for you and get your drunk ass off the bottle...

See, here's the problem. You can't really be in AA and follow the steps if you're not religious. But if you're religious, you apparently believe in a God that isn't powerful enough to keep you from getting high. Figure that one out.

I did figure it out - after 22 years of sobriety, I think I have an inkling of it.... and every failed drunk that can't get sober needs an excuse... if yours is the 'god thing', then I'm sorry.... 

if you can't get sober by replacing the word 'god' with 'higher power' or anything else to alleviate your sensitivities, then get over it... failed drunks with a grudge against AA are pathetic...

Jon iz teh kewl: and i didn't like the dish of pills marked Sodium 1000mg on the front porch table.

Couldn't you at least have taken the time to use the tablets to blow up a toilet?

ignite ice: You sure it was the drug treatment that killed them and not the, you know, drugs? Last I checked Scientology doesn't benefit from its followers if they are dead and unable to continue contributing funds. Article mentions that some of the deceased people had "serious health issues." This is just a guess, but, normally people with "serious health issues" are more likely to turn to various religions and faiths for advice on how to proceed with medications, rehabilitation, treatments, and so forth. Some of them die in the process, just like any hospital. People die in the hospital while they're being treated all the time. You do know that, right?

I know you are playing devil's advocate...but no.
Narconon makes a lot of money for scientology. People going in are not scientologists, but the cult would like them to be. Yes, killing them would seem to be a bad move, but if their "success rates" are fake and they are able to blame deaths on earlier drug abuse, it will not hurt them in the long run.

Hell, a lot of people think Narconon is Narcotics Anonymous (it is not), or are unaware of the scientology connection (it is part of scientology and a big moneymake and PR wing)

They believe unscientific things because Hubbard (who dropped out one year of college and any later degrees were from diploma mills he owned) believed them. They are not allowed to question the bullshiat beliefs that drugs can be sweat out of the body with extensive sauna use and high doses of niacin. Niacin in high doses cause a red skin flush that takers are told are toxins or radioactivity leaving the body. They are told this. Also, high doses of niacin cause liver damage. Do you think any people with compromised systems from drug use are tested before being given niacin and long sauna/exercise treatments? LOL.

Also, scientology saves money by hiring recent grads to work at the Narconon clinics. I mean, what could go wrong with people recently being off drugs being around people who are current users?

blankmangedeux,

I've never been an addict, and I still think AA is impossible to do if you're not willing to become religious. Tons of exposure to and education about the program from working in social services, and I think the program simply replaces the addiction to alcohol with the addiction to the program.

Any ad hominems in that bag for me, Scarecrow?

Deece: Lionel Mandrake: ExperianScaresCthulhu: I thought Scientology bought out Narcanon around the time of the brainwashing hysteria of the 70s. And then they ruined it.

No...they were Hubbard-types from the start.

You might be thinking of Cult Awareness Watch (name?) - who watched cults and I think did deprogramming. They went bankrupt and Scientology bought the name or something. So now Scientology owns a well-known anti-cult organization, which presumably no longer considers Scientology a cult.

The best/worst part is that they kept the 1-800 number, but staffed it with their own people. So when those poor folks finally came to their senses and called a hotline to help them get out, they were gently steered right back in.

It's diabolical, but you have to respect that level of pure, unadulterated evil.

If Hubbard could have written fictional stories this good, he never would have had to start the cult in the first place.

Narconon Not Scientology? Then Why Is Its Leader in the Church's Concentration Camp?

It's true that Scientology and Narconon sometimes do their best to give the impression that they have little to do with each other. The drug treatment centers are each non-profit corporations of their own. They pay licensing fees to a non-profit umbrella organization called the Association for Better Living and Education, or ABLE.

ABLE, in turn, is careful to say that it is a secular "social betterment" organization that uses the ideas of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, but is not a part of the church itself.

These are smokescreens. As researchers have shown for years, Narconon is under the tight control of Scientology and its elite corps of quasi-military leaders in the church's "Sea Org."

-- Only Sea Org members can be employed at ABLE, which itself grew out of Scientology's notorious "Guardian's Office," responsible for a vast 1970s infiltration of federal government offices that was broken up by the FBI.

 

Many good links in this story if you wish to research further.

ignite ice: You sure it was the drug treatment that killed them and not the, you know, drugs? Last I checked Scientology doesn't benefit from its followers if they are dead and unable to continue contributing funds.

They do when they take health insurance policies out agains tthem.

/may be confusingt hem with wal-mart...gimmegimme: AA TOTALLY fulfills the criteria of a cult. Cults/religions make you believe you are broken and they are the solution. They love-bomb you, giving you a new family to replace the old one that led you astray. They remind you there are BIG consequences for leaving; not only will you lose your "soul," but you will lose your freedom. (If AA is court-ordered, this is literal.) There's the dogmatic reliance on scripture from a divinely inspired founder...it's all there

Peopele who can't stop drinking are broken.
I don't think they replace your family, just give you a support system to help you quit drinking.
Never heard them talk about soul (had to go to AA because of troulbe I got in during college).
Also not familiar with dogmatic reliance on scripture.

jodaveki: Again, not saying the roots aren't religious, nor that it doesn't still rely on that, but it is important to recognize that humans operate through imagery and metaphor by and large. Hence the persistence of religious faith in this age of scientific discovery. It is possible to read the philosophy secularly, and apply it in light of the science, but most will tend to respond to the imagery because that's what's natural.

Habits don't change unless we can visualize that change. Telling someone to modulate their dopamine uptake isn't as romantic (or comprehensible) to most as an exhortation to visualize a higher power

This.

born_yesterday: Deece: Lionel Mandrake: ExperianScaresCthulhu: I thought Scientology bought out Narcanon around the time of the brainwashing hysteria of the 70s. And then they ruined it.

No...they were Hubbard-types from the start.

You might be thinking of Cult Awareness Watch (name?) - who watched cults and I think did deprogramming. They went bankrupt and Scientology bought the name or something. So now Scientology owns a well-known anti-cult organization, which presumably no longer considers Scientology a cult.

The best/worst part is that they kept the 1-800 number, but staffed it with their own people. So when those poor folks finally came to their senses and called a hotline to help them get out, they were gently steered right back in.

It's diabolical, but you have to respect that level of pure, unadulterated evil.

If Hubbard could have written fictional stories this good, he never would have had to start the cult in the first place.

------------
That was the former Cult Awareness Network.

Scientology actually tried and had people get inside the organization to get info and discredit it actions to make it easier to sue. C.A.N. went bankrupt BECAUSE scientology helped any group that sued them...it was no coincidence.

blankmangedeux: gimmegimme: blankmangedeux: isn't a dead addict technically 'cured'?

and just wow - lots of hate for AA in here.... other than court-mandated appearances (which almost never work), AA is entirely voluntary and free.... different groups have their skew on the AA dogma, which works for them, but there are so many different AA groups, pick one that works for you and get your drunk ass off the bottle...

See, here's the problem. You can't really be in AA and follow the steps if you're not religious. But if you're religious, you apparently believe in a God that isn't powerful enough to keep you from getting high. Figure that one out.

I did figure it out - after 22 years of sobriety, I think I have an inkling of it.... and every failed drunk that can't get sober needs an excuse... if yours is the 'god thing', then I'm sorry.... 

if you can't get sober by replacing the word 'god' with 'higher power' or anything else to alleviate your sensitivities, then get over it... failed drunks with a grudge against AA are pathetic...

Good for you on your sobriety.
I don't see the hate for AA that you mentioned upthread. It works for some people and not others. Also, there are some people posting that have no clue about addiction or living with an addict.

They're whackaloons. The stuff they employ is no better than Medieval monks bleeding people or putting useless and harmful poultices into open wounds.

yourmotheristhespeedlimit: blankmangedeux,

I've never been an addict, and I still think AA is impossible to do if you're not willing to become religious. Tons of exposure to and education about the program from working in social services, and I think the program simply replaces the addiction to alcohol with the addiction to the program.

Any ad hominems in that bag for me, Scarecrow?

So what if it does? Lots of recovery programs swap out one harmful thing for another less-harmful thing as part of the process. If it gives troubled people comfort, and doesn't ask very much from them in return (unlike Scientology), then where's the harm? You're no doubt right about some AA groups or members going overboard with the religious component or with making AA their new fixation. Humans do that sometimes. Doesn't mean the program can't have a positive effect on plenty of other people.

foxyshadis: Of course, the fact that the entire therapy basically consists of making you believe that you're a useless loser who has no control over anything tends to result in relapses when people bring that "powerless" attitude with them when their will bends and they take a couple of drinks. It sets them up for failure if they don't stay perfectly sober for the rest of their lives, or at least that's the common explanation from people who fall off the wagon. It's disempowerment and a form of deprogramming, to replace their problems with religion rather than more constructive roads to fulfillment and passion. Building one thing you can be proud of is better than years of hoping and praying for life to get better.

If that's what you got out of it, then that's what you got out of it. Don't think your interpretation works for everyone. There is more than one way to use programs that use your own head to get cured.

Me, I got sober with AA. Saved my life. I am not, and never have been, the least bit religious. If AA, or NOTHING, will work for you, because your addiction is "special" well then--have fun with it.

Captain_Ballbeard: Sure, but they're free, so your option is paying for other treatment. SOP around here in GA is that if you get a DUI, you will be spending months with these people. To anyone with sense, their meetings are amusing, especially the AWs who usually run the meetings. You gotta kind of feel for the more vulnerable as you watch them get reeled into a surrogate addiction.

You gotta feel for someone who knows nothing about AA except court-ordered, which is a joke. It's like sending me to church to become "cured." It won't work. Hey, guess what--the AAer's don't like the court-ordered people either. It goes against the whole idea of AA, which is that you're there because you've decided that you have a problem. So now you're blaming AA for the stupid courts too?

I guess you all would rather people die than be exposed to something that might--OMG--not be exactly what they wanted to hear. After all, drunks already have everything figured out, why should they have to seek help anywhere? Oh yeah--BECAUSE THEY ARE DESPERATE.

But don't join AA. Better you die on the streets that be exposed to that.

Jon iz teh kewl: BMFPitt: gimmegimme: jodaveki: Don't mistake my analysis as devotion; the roots of the organization are plainly religious, but I think it's possible read the AA philosophy in secular terms, especially in light of our evolving understanding of addiction.


I dunno, friend:

3) Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

5) Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6) Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7) Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

11) Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12) Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I'm guessing it's hard to go through the 12 steps in a secular fashion when 6 of them are expressly non-secular.

Seems like if I were an alcoholic, I could follow the 6 real steps just fine and it would probably be just as effective as the 12 with all the religious fluff.

belief in God isn't religious. it just means you think positive and do positive. just cause GOD is a code word for good doesn't make you not part of the group.

#12 is the only one of those steps that can even remotely make any logical sense by replacing "God" or "higher power" or "intelligent designer" or whatever, with generic "good."

#5 would actually be just fine by sticking to the real people referenced.

Is it Woo Woo, or Nyuk Nyuk based

Woo-based?

Yeah, it's so much more farked up than all the other drug "programs"

In regards to the AA derailment,

When I was younger and fatter, I loved milk. Couldn't get enough of it, drank it like it was water. Eventually, we figured out the reason I had an insanely stuffy nose ALL OF THE TIME YEAR ROUND was because of my consumption of milk. Once I discovered life without that BS, I found out the ends didn't justify the love for milk. I conditioned myself not to like milk because the consequences sucked so much.

Problem with drinking alcohol is, a lot of the consequences don't outweigh the love and it becomes a slippery slope that gets bigger and bigger the more the abuser loves it. Getting awfully sick? We've all heard people say 'never again,' but then easily forget about the consequences because of the drive they have to feel that feeling. Family troubles? Same deal. It's easy to forget when drinking. Yes, I believe AA is fundamentally flawed by never conditioning behavior away from the issue, just supplanting it. Guess what, you could do the same thing with smoking pot or any number of other safer drugs and live longer than drinking, but you never fixed the problem, just passed it along.

Some people have their reasons for drinking, some may just be as simple as boredom. But, given how much I loved milk, and the decisions I made and actions I took to move towards conditioning myself via minor psychology (if you tell yourself something enough, you'll eventually believe it to be true - may take a while though), I think that this would be a much better and effective method of treatment rather than, "DRINK GOD INSTEAD OF BEER LOL"

/CSB
/other people were saying it doesn't fix the root of the problem, just pulls a weed for now in their own way without a CSB