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(BBC)   Israel begins to Cheney-ize a war with Iran: "It will last a month and only kill 500 Israelis"   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 412
    More: Unlikely, Israelis, Iran, Maariv, military plans, Cold War, Shin Bet, CIA Director Leon Panetta, ballistic missiles  
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6441 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Aug 2012 at 6:30 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-15 09:49:59 PM  

RanDomino: Poor, poor, repressed Israel. Manipulated, defeated, and/or overthrown every regional rival and with the world's only superpower in its back pocket, and still the victim.



What hero can resist a woman's tears?
 
2012-08-15 09:52:12 PM  
sunnis 80-90 % of the world muslim population. shi'ites - 10 - 20 % of the world muslim population.

saudi arabia considers itself the leader of the sunni world - contains 2 of 3 holy sites (mecca and medina) - the other being in jerusalem. iran considers itself the leader of the shi'ite world - even thought the majoy holy sites are in mecca, medina and jerusalem, as above. there are additional shi'ite shrines in iraq (najaf, and a couple in karbala), saudi arabia (al-baql, another couple in mecca) as well as a couple in syria - but not iran

traditionally, western friendly iran stood alongside saudi arabia as one of a pair of dominant religious regional pillars. now, it doesn't. it has half the oil of saudi arabia, and has far less influence in the gulfstates outside of iraq - nevertheless, iran actively sponsors militias in about half a dozen, as it seeks to increase sunni / shi'ite tension. iran has tried repeatedly to influence iraq and to tie the states together. with the extraction of american troops this will only grow. this would obviously reduce saudi influence.

so, the idea that iran is not a threat to anyone is a nonsense. with its relationship with syria about to fall, saudi arabia and kurdish iraq willing to resist iranian attempts to effectively unite iran with iraq, as well as the continued development of asymmetric militias attempting to provoke saudi arabia and israel and undermine other regional powers, oil reserves that would only match saudi arabian if combined with iraq's, and on their own only 50% more than either kuwait or uae - which in turn align with saudi arabia, putting saudi arabia further beyond reach. add, to that backdrop, that iran has consistently attempted to destabilize the dollar and the euro, threaten israel and lay siege to world oil by blocking the straights of hormuz, etc. it all makes saudi arabia presently the clear power of the muslim world, leaving the possibility of an isolated iran, with no holy pitches, about 15% of regional power.

now, maybe we could give iran the country of iraq, a few dozen nuclear weapons, maybe a couple of lesser gulf states, jerusalem, and maybe one of mecca or medina, maybe invent a few hundred million more shi'ite muslims whilst we are at it and everything would be great. it's kind of unlikely, though
 
2012-08-15 09:54:50 PM  

Hobodeluxe: Israel 176,500 active soldiers 565,000 reserve 8,050 paramilitary

Iran 523,000 active soldiers 1,800,000 reserve 1,510,000 paramilitary


...which is why Israel keeps trying to drag the U.S. into a direct conflict with every country that scares it. The interesting part is whether Israel will finally use its nuclear arsenal to start a war with a country that doesn't have one, but might get one (and therefore scare Israel with it), thereby removing any protection it could get from its allies, or whether Israel will get wiped from the map by a military force several times its size in a war Israel started.
 
2012-08-15 09:55:54 PM  

intelligent comment below: Hobodeluxe: because they might do what Israel is threatening to do?
Israel promotes terrorism by proxy,assassinations,spies on it's friends and enemies alike and oppresses it's own people. it also makes regular threats against Iran.
they aren't innocent bystanders in all this.

Israel has looked too long into the abyss


So then 9/11 was justified based on the history of America dealing with the rest of the world? Do you really want to go down this slippery slope?


Well, I don't think that killing innocents is ever justified, but if you seriously believe that people would willingly fly airplanes into buildings "because they hate our freedom" then you have an everly simplistic view of the world and how actions can build to unforseen side effects.
 
2012-08-15 09:56:10 PM  
If you start a war, you're not the good guy.
 
2012-08-15 10:02:43 PM  

dugrik: Who green-lit this train-wreck of a headline?


what he said.
 
2012-08-15 10:04:59 PM  
Starting a war with Iran is pretty much all Romney has in his platform under "Foreign Policy".

That and ending unemployment in China and India...
 
2012-08-15 10:06:07 PM  

beta_plus: Actually, when the Israelis make a promise for violence, they keep it. They don't get too hung up on rules of engagement and human rights.

/seriously, don't fark with them
//imagine a corps of America's best Marines who have one order:
///Win


Which is why we should be supporting them not at all unless they get rid of the nukes. Radiation is not our friend, we cannot kill civilians with it over anything less than the entire damn galaxy being ready to kill us, and we have no damn money.

Israel needs to shut up.
 
2012-08-15 10:07:29 PM  

WeenerGord: BojanglesPaladin: And THAT is where the phrase 'Centurion's choice' comes from.

LOL!


Sumbiatch! There's a whole BOOK about it!
 
2012-08-15 10:09:08 PM  
I just hope we have the brains to stay out of it. This could be a great thing for the world; Two annoying little pissant countries blasting each other to pieces. Good riddance to them both.
 
2012-08-15 10:09:28 PM  
Just... Everyone seriously rah-rahing over this?

I really, truly, and I say this with all honesty, hope someone murders you and your whole family and burns down your home because they disagree with American foreign policy, because that is what you are wishing on other people.
 
2012-08-15 10:10:35 PM  

Pantubo: Cheney-ize a war? What does that mean?

The losers have to legalize gay marriage?


Pantubo: Obama has yet to find a nation of brown people he won't bomb.

Once he is down 5 points in the polls.... Goodnight.


Seriously?

I eat you only b/c you rob good references of their inherent good, no?

No, also b/c you leave hate online.

Words leave marks deeper than sword wounds, friend.

And I am a Master of Words, you?

Shall we play?

;)
 
2012-08-15 10:12:07 PM  

Pantubo: Cheney-ize a war? What does that mean?

The losers have to legalize gay marriage?


You know, ridiculous outright lies.
 
2012-08-15 10:12:44 PM  
Shut up, subdumbass; nobody is talking about a Cheney-style invasion. Israel wants to do an air-to-ground war, a la US Air Force vs. Serbia, which involved how many US casualties? That's right, none.
 
2012-08-15 10:17:19 PM  

mbillips: Cheney-style invasion


This phrase is so uninformed.
 
2012-08-15 10:18:15 PM  

hitlersbrain: I just hope we have the brains to stay out of it. This could be a great thing for the world; Two annoying little pissant countries blasting each other to pieces. Good riddance to them both.


I had the same reaction in the Seventies to the conflict in Northern Ireland. Tired of hearing about it -- just nuke Belfast.
Same deal here. It's a religious conflict (and much of it is within Islam) so let them kill each other.
Of course the unfortunate thing is many innocents die.
 
2012-08-15 10:19:43 PM  

mbillips: Shut up, subdumbass; nobody is talking about a Cheney-style invasion. Israel wants to do an air-to-ground war, a la US Air Force vs. Serbia, which involved how many US casualties? That's right, none.


Unlike Serbia, Iran has the capability to strike back. Do you think they will just lie there and take it?
 
2012-08-15 10:19:50 PM  
hitlersbrain
I just hope we have the brains to stay out of it.

There are, what, three carriers in the gulf right now?
 
2012-08-15 10:21:50 PM  

JAYoung: hitlersbrain: I just hope we have the brains to stay out of it. This could be a great thing for the world; Two annoying little pissant countries blasting each other to pieces. Good riddance to them both.

I had the same reaction in the Seventies to the conflict in Northern Ireland. Tired of hearing about it -- just nuke Belfast.
Same deal here. It's a religious conflict (and much of it is within Islam) so let them kill each other.
Of course the unfortunate thing is many innocents die.


And that would have been such a better outcome for Ireland than what actually happened.

It's amazing how someone can stagger through life having powerful lessons like that rammed directly into his eyeball and somehow never get it.
 
2012-08-15 10:25:02 PM  
Can we finally agree thar religion as a whole is the problem here? Please let us just start there.
Without religion, why do we fight?
 
2012-08-15 10:27:24 PM  

DidyoumeanDark: Can we finally agree thar religion as a whole is the problem here? Please let us just start there.
Without religion, why do we fight?


resources? land?
 
2012-08-15 10:27:37 PM  

DidyoumeanDark: Can we finally agree thar religion as a whole is the problem here? Please let us just start there.
Without religion, why do we fight?



Adorable.
 
2012-08-15 10:30:51 PM  
lazyoptimist.files.wordpress.com

Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light.
 
2012-08-15 10:31:56 PM  

RanDomino: hitlersbrain
I just hope we have the brains to stay out of it.

There are, what, three carriers in the gulf right now?


Well, we know how that narrative goes.

"We urge Israel not to engage in unprovoked attacks on Iran, and we warn them that we will not support such action but condemn it in the strongest possible fashion."
|
v
"We categorically reject intervening. This is not America's fight, and we ask everyone to remember the innocent people on both sides of this senseless conflict."
|
v
"Our sympathies go out to our allies and friends in Israel, but we must also not forget the people of Iran. We hope for a quick resolution to this senseless war."
|
v
"Our sympathies go out to our allies and friends in Israel and we are proud to announce that we are providing humanitarian aid to help address the recent food shortage as well as rebuilding damage civilian residences."
|
v
"We continue to call for an end to this senseless war. However, we recognize our responsibility to our friends and allies in Israel and are sending 2,000 troops in a strictly defensive capacity to help protect Tel Aviv."
|
v
"We stand with our friends in Israel and are saddened and outraged by these attacks. I have authorized an additional 2,000 troops to help defend Israel against Iranian incursion."
|
v
"The senseless aggression by Iran toward our friends in Israel can no longer be tolerated. That is why I am asking Congress for authorization to send 20,000 active-duty troops to augment our personnel already on the ground. In addition, we have already begun, based on standing authorization, targeted air strikes against Iranian military emplacements."

And by the time three weeks are up Iran will have been the evil instigators the whole time and there will be endless cheering of America's "thoughtful defense of her allies".
 
2012-08-15 10:33:23 PM  
I really don't like all this talk of a Israel/Iran war combined with the territorial fights in Asia over islands and seas.

Come on, humanity, get it together. :-/
 
2012-08-15 10:35:55 PM  
"Religion will be the destroyer or uniter of your planet; you decide. War is not the answer to your questions."

*he said whistling while walking away*
 
2012-08-15 10:36:48 PM  

anfrind: [lazyoptimist.files.wordpress.com image 350x290]

Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light.


... and every single day, millions of insects kill each other all over the world.... and no one cares. It is not the individual accomplishment at all, but the constant killing and birthing over billions of years which gives a species the right to exist. The universe is a cold, hard biatch.

/Didnt really have anything to say, I just enjoy astrophysics and felt like jumping in
 
2012-08-15 10:38:12 PM  

Alonjar: anfrind: [lazyoptimist.files.wordpress.com image 350x290]

Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light.

... and every single day, millions of insects kill each other all over the world.... and no one cares. It is not the individual accomplishment at all, but the constant killing and birthing over billions of years which gives a species the right to exist. The universe is a cold, hard biatch.

/Didnt really have anything to say, I just enjoy astrophysics and felt like jumping in


/Fear much?
 
2012-08-15 10:40:13 PM  

God-is-a-Taco: I really don't like all this talk of a Israel/Iran war combined with the territorial fights in Asia over islands and seas.

Come on, humanity, get it together. :-/


If Russia and China ever find a reason to work together, they could make quite a mess.
 
2012-08-15 10:41:36 PM  
A Dark Evil Omen
"The senseless aggression by Iran toward our friends in Israel can no longer be tolerated. That is why I am asking Congress for authorization to send 20,000 active-duty troops to augment our personnel already on the ground. In addition, we have already begun, based on standing authorization, targeted air strikes against Iranian military emplacements."

eh, if Americans are being shot at, nothing else would matter in the propaganda.
 
2012-08-15 10:43:41 PM  

Captain_Ballbeard: God-is-a-Taco: I really don't like all this talk of a Israel/Iran war combined with the territorial fights in Asia over islands and seas.

Come on, humanity, get it together. :-/

If Russia and China ever find a reason to work together, they could make quite a mess.


Quit with the war and stuff, please.

Thank you.
 
2012-08-15 10:46:21 PM  
Operation Barbarossa?
 
2012-08-15 10:48:11 PM  
When given time to plan. And network their assets (netcentric warfare) there isn't much Israel can't do.

And do it well. They've had a looong time to look at Iran.


/Bekka
//cake walk
 
2012-08-15 10:49:26 PM  
Puts down Beer. Thinks for a minute.

Well, if it's only 500 Israelis, then go ahead.
Just don't expect the US to bleed for you. I think the populace is sick to death of the ME being a headache to the rest of the world. If you want to kill each other, by all means, do so.
Just leave us out of it.

Would gladly fence off the whole area and just deal with whomever is left after you all are done.
Even if all that was left was a glass parking lot, at least it'd be quiet.
 
2012-08-15 10:51:07 PM  
Virtual Pariah
Just leave us out of it.

wishful thinking
Maybe you should have been paying more farking attention when your government was picking sides without asking you?
 
2012-08-15 10:51:24 PM  
spelled it wrong...

It's Bekaa...

as in the colloquial name, the Bekaa Valley Turkey Shoot..
 
2012-08-15 10:56:05 PM  
A Dark Evil Omen

Just... Everyone seriously rah-rahing over this?

I really, truly, and I say this with all honesty, hope someone murders you and your whole family and burns down your home because they disagree with American foreign policy, because that is what you are wishing on other people.


i'm not wishing any such thing.

given current iranian relations with the rest of the world, i do think increasingly significant iranian control of iraq increases the chance of war with, well, take your pick
 
2012-08-15 10:57:37 PM  

RanDomino: Virtual Pariah
Just leave us out of it.

wishful thinking
Maybe you should have been paying more farking attention when your government was picking sides without asking you?


I would have, but this started well before I was of age to have an opinion.

The world changes and so does the will of the people.
 
2012-08-15 10:58:35 PM  

Virtual Pariah: Puts down Beer. Thinks for a minute.

Well, if it's only 500 Israelis, then go ahead.
Just don't expect the US to bleed for you. I think the populace is sick to death of the ME being a headache to the rest of the world. If you want to kill each other, by all means, do so.
Just leave us out of it.

Would gladly fence off the whole area and just deal with whomever is left after you all are done.
Even if all that was left was a glass parking lot, at least it'd be quiet.


How very humanitarian of you.
 
2012-08-15 10:58:56 PM  
Words.
 
2012-08-15 10:59:23 PM  
Hey, if Israel's plan is to just slash and burn everything, then I think they're spot on with that estimate. When Israel invades, they either keep it as their own and slowly extricate the native population, or they just blow the shiat out of everything.

They're using some of the finest military hardware in the world. After all, we made it and gave it to them.
 
2012-08-15 11:00:13 PM  
Virtual Pariah
I would have, but this started well before I was of age to have an opinion.

The world changes and so does the will of the people.


Well thank goodness that it's not your fault.
 
2012-08-15 11:03:39 PM  

thunderbird8804: Virtual Pariah: Puts down Beer. Thinks for a minute.

Well, if it's only 500 Israelis, then go ahead.
Just don't expect the US to bleed for you. I think the populace is sick to death of the ME being a headache to the rest of the world. If you want to kill each other, by all means, do so.
Just leave us out of it.

Would gladly fence off the whole area and just deal with whomever is left after you all are done.
Even if all that was left was a glass parking lot, at least it'd be quiet.

How very humanitarian of you.


Perhaps,
But explain to me how our involvement has done any good in the region?

I've decided that not one cent nor one more drop of American blood should be spilled in the mess that region is and has been.
 
2012-08-15 11:07:26 PM  

RanDomino: Virtual Pariah
I would have, but this started well before I was of age to have an opinion.

The world changes and so does the will of the people.

Well thank goodness that it's not your fault.


I find it helps me sleep at night.
 
2012-08-15 11:08:22 PM  
Frankly, I liked this thread better when it had more etymology and Roman necrophilia.

As much fun at the badminton match of "Isreal sucks", "No YOU" is, it gets kind of pointless.

And 21-7-b being the one making an informed cogent analysis is frankly causing me to bleed from the eyes.
 
2012-08-15 11:12:13 PM  

netcentric: spelled it wrong...

It's Bekaa...

as in the colloquial name, the Bekaa Valley Turkey Shoot..


I remember a graphic on the front of a newspaper at the time showing the stats in the "battle". That couldn't have been good for Russian aircraft sales.
 
2012-08-15 11:14:47 PM  
Virtual Pariah:

I've decided that not one cent nor one more drop of American blood should be spilled in the mess that region is and has been.

Take a seat there Oprah.....

All 'America' has to do is not get in the way. Israel ftw.
 
2012-08-15 11:18:28 PM  

Virtual Pariah: Perhaps,
But explain to me how our involvement has done any good in the region?


Well, Iraq is no longer the sole property of a psychopathic crime family and instead has a democratic government, and the theocratic regime that turned Afghanistan into the shiathole we all know and love has been swept away, so that's good, and a big change from our prior policy of playing dictatorial client states against one another, often resulting in mass death and unimaginable misery (which is close to your proposed plan for the region).
 
2012-08-15 11:20:21 PM  
or start World War III
 
2012-08-15 11:25:02 PM  

thunderbird8804: Virtual Pariah: Perhaps,
But explain to me how our involvement has done any good in the region?

Well, Iraq is no longer the sole property of a psychopathic crime family and instead has a democratic government, and the theocratic regime that turned Afghanistan into the shiathole we all know and love has been swept away, so that's good, and a big change from our prior policy of playing dictatorial client states against one another, often resulting in mass death and unimaginable misery (which is close to your proposed plan for the region).


No it's not.

I'm saying very clearly that my proposed plan for the region is one of non-involvement. I have no interest in playing one group off another, nor selling weapons to either side.

I simply want to NOT be involved in the turf war that the ME has always been. I don't think we can A. Afford it and B. Spend time and effort in a non-ending struggle.
 
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