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(The Daily Beast)   Okay, Paul Ryan wasn't an inside trader, he was "loss-harvesting." That sounds much better   (andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com) divider line 99
    More: Followup, Brad DeLong, traders  
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2395 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Aug 2012 at 3:24 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-15 12:13:57 PM
I haven't been following this, but how do we know what stocks he was trading in 2008? Has he released his tax returns from that period?
 
2012-08-15 12:27:36 PM
Not going to knock Ryan on this anymore than anyone else in office. They ALL pretty much farking do it. They trade on inside information, pass laws trying to protect themselves from getting in trouble for it, and vote to raise their own salaries and pensions.
 
2012-08-15 12:31:39 PM
Mr. Nancy Pelosi laughs at you investigating congressional insider trading.
 
2012-08-15 12:32:10 PM
um...this isn't illegal. members of congress can (and often do) get away with insider trading...they're exempt from the law(s) that make it illegal for the rest of us.

now...is it immoral and unethical? you betcha! is it gonna change? f*ck no.
 
2012-08-15 12:34:17 PM

EnviroDude: Mr. Nancy Pelosi laughs at you investigating congressional insider trading.


for that matter, so does Paul Ryan.
 
2012-08-15 12:34:25 PM
Tax loss-harvesting.

No wonder Mittens likes him so much.
 
2012-08-15 12:38:26 PM

timujin: I haven't been following this, but how do we know what stocks he was trading in 2008? Has he released his tax returns from that period?


He says he'll release the "same two years" as Romney, which I assume means one year plus an estimate for 2012.

According to the blog post though, he was deliberately losing money in the market so that he could write off other income on his taxes. That's not really making him money.
 
2012-08-15 12:45:32 PM
Typical Republican - out and out lies even when there's no reason for it; it's just such an ingrained habit they avoid the truth even when it really doesn't matter at all.
 
2012-08-15 12:54:37 PM

SphericalTime: timujin: I haven't been following this, but how do we know what stocks he was trading in 2008? Has he released his tax returns from that period?

He says he'll release the "same two years" as Romney, which I assume means one year plus an estimate for 2012.

According to the blog post though, he was deliberately losing money in the market so that he could write off other income on his taxes. That's not really making him money.


So how do we know what trades he made?
 
2012-08-15 01:12:50 PM

SphericalTime: timujin: I haven't been following this, but how do we know what stocks he was trading in 2008? Has he released his tax returns from that period?

He says he'll release the "same two years" as Romney, which I assume means one year plus an estimate for 2012.

According to the blog post though, he was deliberately losing money in the market so that he could write off other income on his taxes. That's not really making him money.


If it's a net-gain, it is.
 
2012-08-15 01:19:05 PM
...and the sad thing is that these people think with all their buzzwords and little inside doublespeak, they're somehow as intelligent as the engineers and doctors that they look down upon.
 
2012-08-15 01:25:24 PM
Oh! So that's what it's called when Cantor profits from betting against the US economy. And the lowering of national credit rating.

Nope. No unAmerican conflict of interest there. All capitalism is good capitalism, even when it hurts the country.
 
2012-08-15 02:14:46 PM
No one on the right will care for the same reason they don't care about Romney's tax returns. If no laws were broken it's ok. It's as though Congress has the power to magically make the immoral moral.
 
2012-08-15 02:34:51 PM

Diogenes: Oh! So that's what it's called when Cantor profits from betting against the US economy. And the lowering of national credit rating.

Nope. No unAmerican conflict of interest there. All capitalism is good capitalism, even when it hurts the country.


In fairness, Cantor IS a gigantic douche...
 
2012-08-15 02:48:55 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: Not going to knock Ryan on this anymore than anyone else in office. They ALL pretty much farking do it. They trade on inside information, pass laws trying to protect themselves from getting in trouble for it, and vote to raise their own salaries and pensions.


This
 
2012-08-15 03:03:08 PM
He probably has a few epic items he wants to buy from the auction house...


/Loss harvesting...gold farming...same thing, right?
 
2012-08-15 03:26:52 PM
If Ryan is into loss harvesting he sure farking signed on with the right campaign.
 
2012-08-15 03:27:43 PM
Can you get federal crop subsidies for your loss farm?
 
2012-08-15 03:29:29 PM
So... not necessarily inside trading, but tax-avoidance instead?

Yeah, that sounds so much better.
 
2012-08-15 03:30:52 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: Not going to knock Ryan on this anymore than anyone else in office. They ALL pretty much farking do it. They trade on inside information,

except FTFA: "Ryan wasn't guilty of insider trading."

 
2012-08-15 03:31:24 PM
That's how he built that... see no help libtards!
 
2012-08-15 03:31:42 PM

Cinaed: So... not necessarily inside trading, but tax-avoidance instead?

.


just curious. do you go out of your way to pay more taxes than you should?
 
2012-08-15 03:34:14 PM
He didn't do anything illegal. He simply changed the laws so that they specifically exclude him
 
2012-08-15 03:34:36 PM
I still don't know why tax loss harvesting is legal
 
2012-08-15 03:34:57 PM

UberDave: He probably has a few epic items he wants to buy from the auction house...


/Loss harvesting...gold farming...same thing, right?


Why would he do that when Bliz announced that epics will now be buffed in the new patch but any outstanding epics will stay the same.
 
2012-08-15 03:36:10 PM
Rich people and politicians have different rules. Just like old Europe.
 
2012-08-15 03:36:59 PM

Cinaed: So... not necessarily inside trading, but tax-avoidance instead?

Yeah, that sounds so much better.


This is going to be the best thing to ever come out of an election. Once folks start seeing on a large scale what the privileged few are allowed to use to not pay taxes, there will be a serious backlash.
 
2012-08-15 03:38:52 PM
All laws are to apply to all peoples equally.

/Now just like politicians and certain law enforcement agencies: I'm off to .......[retracted]........ without fear of being arrested or prosecuted for it.
//Precedent is so awesome to use.
 
2012-08-15 03:38:53 PM

CPennypacker: I still don't know why tax loss harvesting is legal


That is only because you don't understand it.
 
2012-08-15 03:40:47 PM

Paul Baumer: Cinaed: So... not necessarily inside trading, but tax-avoidance instead?

Yeah, that sounds so much better.

This is going to be the best thing to ever come out of an election. Once folks start seeing on a large scale what the privileged few are allowed to use to not pay taxes, there will be a serious backlash.


oh yeah, all those people who use tax software who accidently chose the option to "Maximize My Taxes" instead of "Maximize My Deductions" are going to be pissed.
 
2012-08-15 03:41:55 PM
So what is "loss-harvesting"? Is that like making money disposing of fetuses, like Romney?
 
2012-08-15 03:43:25 PM

Ed Finnerty: So what is "loss-harvesting"? Is that like making money disposing of fetuses, like Romney?


I lol'd.
 
2012-08-15 03:44:32 PM

Ed Finnerty: So what is "loss-harvesting"? Is that like making money disposing of fetuses, like Romney?


Loss harvesting is where you sell unrealized losses then buy them back 30 days later after the wash sale restriction has expired. Then you use your phantom losses to offset your gains to pay less taxes.
 
2012-08-15 03:45:26 PM
I spent a decade auditing large case returns. What's your particular expertise in this matter? Do you know how MACRS and basis work? Do you know how TEFRA works? In short are you anything but a reciter of others talking points on anything?
 
2012-08-15 03:46:04 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Paul Baumer: Cinaed: So... not necessarily inside trading, but tax-avoidance instead?

Yeah, that sounds so much better.

This is going to be the best thing to ever come out of an election. Once folks start seeing on a large scale what the privileged few are allowed to use to not pay taxes, there will be a serious backlash.

oh yeah, all those people who use tax software who accidently chose the option to "Maximize My Taxes" instead of "Maximize My Deductions" are going to be pissed.


I spent a decade auditing large case returns. What's your particular expertise in this matter? Do you know how MACRS and basis work? Do you know how TEFRA works? In short are you anything but a reciter of others talking points on anything?
 
2012-08-15 03:49:30 PM

SphericalTime: According to the blog post though, he was deliberately losing money in the market so that he could write off other income on his taxes. That's not really making him money.


It does, actually. Maybe. But, it only does so if, at the long-term cash-out-day, you're expecting to be in a capital-gains bracket even lower than the 15% they max out at now. If you expect your capital gains rates to be 15% (plus whatever state taxes) or higher in the future, it'd be dumb (you should pay whatever gains you can at this cheap rate, and keep high-cost-basis stocks for when rates are higher).

Which, since he wants them to be zero, and may get to make them zero, would be a reason to defer paying 15% on such gains presently.

More likely, his accountants were just being clever to say they were doing something, and get a few tasty service charges in the process.
 
2012-08-15 03:50:31 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: Not going to knock Ryan on this anymore than anyone else in office. They ALL pretty much farking do it. They trade on inside information, pass laws trying to protect themselves from getting in trouble for it, and vote to raise their own salaries and pensions.


THIS. And I could be way off base here, but I remember hearing recently that someone in Congress tried to actually do something about this but wasn't able to get it to go anywhere.
 
2012-08-15 03:51:08 PM

CPennypacker: Ed Finnerty: So what is "loss-harvesting"? Is that like making money disposing of fetuses, like Romney?

Loss harvesting is where you sell unrealized losses

How do you sell an unrealized loss? If you sell at a loss, it is a realized loss.

then buy them back 30 days later after the wash sale restriction has expired.
and hope that the stock has risen in the last 30 days.

Then you use your phantom losses to offset your gains to pay less taxes.
how are they phantom if you sold something for less than you bought it?

 
2012-08-15 03:52:09 PM

Ed Finnerty: So what is "loss-harvesting"?


From what I understand, your gains/losses on things like stocks don't count as income or losses until you 'realize' them by cashing them in. Loss harvesting cashes in losses, then re-buys same/similar assets so you can write off the loss on your taxes.

As an example, you have stock in Company A worth $10, and stock in Company B worth $100. After a while on the market, your A stock went up to $100 and your B stock went down to $10. You sell B, then re-buy B 30 days later, still at $10. You get to claim $90 in losses on B, but don't have to pay income on the A stock since you didn't 'realize' it by cashing it in.
 
2012-08-15 03:52:41 PM

Paul Baumer: tenpoundsofcheese: Paul Baumer: Cinaed: So... not necessarily inside trading, but tax-avoidance instead?

Yeah, that sounds so much better.

This is going to be the best thing to ever come out of an election. Once folks start seeing on a large scale what the privileged few are allowed to use to not pay taxes, there will be a serious backlash.

oh yeah, all those people who use tax software who accidently chose the option to "Maximize My Taxes" instead of "Maximize My Deductions" are going to be pissed.

I spent a decade auditing large case returns.
just a decade? we call that a noob.
Do you know how MACRS and basis work?
yes.
Do you know how TEFRA works?
yes.
In short are you anything but a reciter of others talking points on anything?
yes.

 
2012-08-15 03:55:22 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: just curious.


I'm not wealthy enough to play with my, or anyone else's, money in a fashion to take advantage of those loopholes.

Are you?
 
2012-08-15 03:55:22 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Paul Baumer: tenpoundsofcheese: Paul Baumer: Cinaed: So... not necessarily inside trading, but tax-avoidance instead?

Yeah, that sounds so much better.

This is going to be the best thing to ever come out of an election. Once folks start seeing on a large scale what the privileged few are allowed to use to not pay taxes, there will be a serious backlash.

oh yeah, all those people who use tax software who accidently chose the option to "Maximize My Taxes" instead of "Maximize My Deductions" are going to be pissed.

I spent a decade auditing large case returns.
just a decade? we call that a noob.
Do you know how MACRS and basis work?
yes.
Do you know how TEFRA works?
yes.
In short are you anything but a reciter of others talking points on anything?
yes.


So, about as many details as the Romney budget plan. Adios, amigo.
 
2012-08-15 03:56:07 PM
Paul Baumer


tenpoundsofcheese: Paul Baumer: Cinaed: So... not necessarily inside trading, but tax-avoidance instead?

Yeah, that sounds so much better.

This is going to be the best thing to ever come out of an election. Once folks start seeing on a large scale what the privileged few are allowed to use to not pay taxes, there will be a serious backlash.

oh yeah, all those people who use tax software who accidently chose the option to "Maximize My Taxes" instead of "Maximize My Deductions" are going to be pissed.

I spent a decade auditing large case returns. What's your particular expertise in this matter? Do you know how MACRS and basis work? Do you know how TEFRA works? In short are you anything but a reciter of others talking points on anything?


So you were a gov't hack who knows a little bit about tax law.

Do honestly believe most Americans are going to be outraged because someone followed the law in filing their tax forms. You know, the people who go to strip mall tax preparers to file their 1040EZ
 
2012-08-15 03:57:12 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: Not going to knock Ryan on this anymore than anyone else in office. They ALL pretty much farking do it. They trade on inside information, pass laws trying to protect themselves from getting in trouble for it, and vote to raise their own salaries and pensions.


Therefore, it's okay, and we should allow them to do it.

/If you don't wanna imply it, don't.
 
2012-08-15 04:01:16 PM

Ed Finnerty: So what is "loss-harvesting"? Is that like making money disposing of fetuses, like Romney?


The way I understand it from the article, it's like this:

There are two financial firms (Firm A and Firm B) that take big hits in the market crash. Both are worth about the same.

You have a bunch of stock in Firm A. After the crash, your holdings aren't worth as much, but you're pretty sure the value will recover becase of the bailout - which is what happened.

But if you keep in your stock in firm A, you'll just be back where you started.

So instead you sell the stock in Firm A and buy stock in Firm B. The value of Firm B rises, just like the value of Firm A. So the value you have after the rebound is essentially the same, but by selling your stock in Firm A you have created a loss on paper which you can deduct from your taxes.

But I'm not a CPA, so if I'm wrong feel free to correct me.
 
2012-08-15 04:01:46 PM

sprawl15: Ed Finnerty: So what is "loss-harvesting"?

From what I understand, your gains/losses on things like stocks don't count as income or losses until you 'realize' them by cashing them in. Loss harvesting cashes in losses, then re-buys same/similar assets so you can write off the loss on your taxes.

As an example, you have stock in Company A worth $10, and stock in Company B worth $100. After a while on the market, your A stock went up to $100 and your B stock went down to $10. You sell B, then re-buy B 30 days later, still at $10. You get to claim $90 in losses on B, but don't have to pay income on the A stock since you didn't 'realize' it by cashing it in.


I am not sure why you would buy B again if the stock went from 100 to 10.
Now of course you know that anyone, anyone at all, can do this and any half decent tax software package or tax for dummy book would tell you to do this.

The next step of course is after selling B, you also sell A. Your net gain is $10 ($100 gain on B offset by $90 loss on A). And then re-buy the stocks after 30 days (hoping that they aren't going up in value during that time).

Of course stupid people would say "oh look, he only paid $10 on a profit of $100 of B stock.
 
2012-08-15 04:03:17 PM
I hope he remembers to water his crops in Loss Farmville.
 
2012-08-15 04:04:48 PM

EnviroDude: Mr. Nancy Pelosi laughs at you investigating congressional insider trading.


You sound pretty tired.
 
2012-08-15 04:05:51 PM

doyner: No one on the right will care for the same reason they don't care about Romney's tax returns. If no laws were broken it's ok. It's as though Congress has the power to magically make the immoral moral.


Hmm, is that why they're trying to ban abortion, because if it's legal it's okay? Same with marriage equality, prostitution, gambling, and pot.
 
2012-08-15 04:05:58 PM

Cinaed: tenpoundsofcheese: just curious.

I'm not wealthy enough to play with my, or anyone else's, money in a fashion to take advantage of those loopholes.

Are you?


If you bought a stock or mutual fund that you sold at a loss, and that loss either offset a gain in a stock you sold or reduced your taxes, then you took advantage of this "loophole".

yes, I am wealthy enough to have stocks and mutual funds and I have been stupid enough to invest in things that lost money.
 
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