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(Washington Post)   Conspiracy theorists freak out over National Weather Service order for 46,000 rounds of hollowpoint ammo   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 187
    More: Stupid, National Weather Service, National Marine Fisheries Service, conspiracy theorists, ammunition, semiautomatic pistols  
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14673 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Aug 2012 at 6:24 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-14 11:54:08 PM  
*reads*

Yup. Alex Jones. He's got an amazing record for uncovering plots and simultaneously not whiffing on everything else he proclaims.

/so i was told, just recently
 
2012-08-14 11:54:46 PM  
You mean the NOAA Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement.
 
2012-08-14 11:57:17 PM  
So the hollow-points will be used to protect fish and not weather vanes. I'm so relieved!
 
2012-08-15 12:15:57 AM  
There has been an awful lot of ammo orders recently. DHS, now this.

I just wonder how this compares to previous years.

Maybe they're just stockpiling like the tea party are.
 
2012-08-15 12:21:29 AM  

ourbigdumbmouth: There has been an awful lot of ammo orders recently. DHS, now this.

I just wonder how this compares to previous years.

Maybe they're just stockpiling like the tea party are.


keeps the prices down.

I have a friend who is a redneck from north carolina. He's a john bircher - and keep in mind that utah is a state where you can admit that in public.

Back when barry soetoro was freshly elected, he and his other bircher friend - who i was bowling in league with at the time - were discussing how sure they were that obama wants to ban the sale of guns but knows that he can't so he'll ban the sale of ammunition.

They went on to discuss how the owner of the biggest gun store in town - who is also a bircher - loves when a democrat gets elected to the oval office because ammunition sales go through the roof for two years. And hates when republicans get elected because ammo sales go flat for two years.

I asked if they saw the irony in that.

They sincerely did not.
 
2012-08-15 12:30:18 AM  
Hey, them slight cold fronts are a biatch to take down!
 
2012-08-15 01:09:17 AM  
Well this makes me glad to know that if a foreign enemy decimates the military, obliterates police departments, destroys Homeland Security, massacre the TSA, then we will have the NOAA with their military weapons ready to defend the homeland.
 
2012-08-15 01:31:13 AM  
So, back during all the furor in the aftermath of the movie theater shooting, gun rights supporters were telling us that one guy buying 6,000 rounds of ammo is not something that should raise a red flag; it's perfectly reasonable for one person to have that much ammo.
Now, a government agency buying 46,000 rounds of ammo is cause for concern and indicative of some deep dark government conspiracy.
But if 6k rounds is an appropriate amount for one person, maybe the NOAA is just buying ammo for 8 guys. No big deal.
 
2012-08-15 01:41:06 AM  
It must be so disheartening to be an Alex Jones fan after a few decades and still waiting... still waiting... surely it's all coming down NOW, right?

sigh, maybe next year. Better buy some more canned goods for the bunker, ate all the chicken soup already.
 
2012-08-15 01:57:54 AM  

ourbigdumbmouth: There has been an awful lot of ammo orders recently. DHS, now this.

I just wonder how this compares to previous years.

Maybe they're just stockpiling like the tea party are.


On a completely unrelated note, I wonder how the Syrian rebels are getting all that ammo?
 
2012-08-15 02:04:19 AM  
You know, 46,000 rounds isn't that much anyway, even if this was a story.
 
2012-08-15 02:15:53 AM  
Would you conspiracy nutters all just go choke to death on a nice can of cream of bullet soup now?
 
2012-08-15 02:18:10 AM  

Triumph: ourbigdumbmouth: There has been an awful lot of ammo orders recently. DHS, now this.

I just wonder how this compares to previous years.

Maybe they're just stockpiling like the tea party are.

On a completely unrelated note, I wonder how the Syrian rebels are getting all that ammo?


Just asking' questions, right?
 
2012-08-15 02:55:02 AM  
If you ever listen to Alex Jones (everyone should sometimes, not too often, just to remind us how crazy our fellow Americans are), the common psychological refrain is OMG YOU HAVE WOKEN ME UP TO THE TRUTH I AM GOING TO MAKE ALL MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY SEE THIS THANK YOU FOR OPENING UP MY EYES.

This is 90% of the thinking of an Alex Jones listener. Then they go back to their engineering and banking jobs and look just like the rest of us while these nutty thoughts keep rattling around their brains. omg conspiracy
 
2012-08-15 03:19:08 AM  

cman: Well this makes me glad to know that if a foreign enemy decimates the military, obliterates police departments, destroys Homeland Security, massacre the TSA, then we will have the NOAA with their military weapons ready to defend the homeland.


I thought that was what heavily armed high school football players were for?
 
2012-08-15 03:42:26 AM  

Confabulat: If you ever listen to Alex Jones (everyone should sometimes, not too often, just to remind us how crazy our fellow Americans are), the common psychological refrain is OMG YOU HAVE WOKEN ME UP TO THE TRUTH I AM GOING TO MAKE ALL MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY SEE THIS THANK YOU FOR OPENING UP MY EYES.

This is 90% of the thinking of an Alex Jones listener. Then they go back to their engineering and banking jobs and look just like the rest of us while these nutty thoughts keep rattling around their brains. omg conspiracy


I've recently been back in contact with an old college pal I hadn't talked to in 30+ years, and he's clearly on the team. He's done everything but call me "sheeple" while repeatedly unleashing one tinfoil derpload after another. Really a nice guy, never really a dick like a lot of us could be at times, so it pains me to see this.
 
2012-08-15 04:09:00 AM  

Kittypie070: Would you conspiracy nutters all just go choke to death on a nice can of cream of bullet soup now?


I only believe in real conspiracies, this isn't one.
 
wee
2012-08-15 04:11:50 AM  

Asa Phelps: I asked if they saw the irony in that.


My local gun store has a picture of Obama on the wall with "Salesman of the Year" signs below it for every year since he was elected. He's done a lot to increase gun sales, actually.

propasaurus: But if 6k rounds is an appropriate amount for one person, maybe the NOAA is just buying ammo for 8 guys. No big deal.


It isn't really. If things shoot them at 650 and 750 rounds a minute, that adds up fast. So it pays the casual shooter to buy in bulk when you find a good deal.
 
2012-08-15 04:46:41 AM  
Not to worry guys, they'll use those bullets find that biatch Katrina and bring her to justice for what she did to New Orleans.
 
2012-08-15 04:58:50 AM  
One thing about this thread -- it's going to be pretty easy to tell who went to the linked page and who only read the Fark headline.
 
2012-08-15 06:04:54 AM  
Until the ACLU came out against the NDAA, signed into law by Obama, stories like these would never have seen the light of day. Hollow points?
 
2012-08-15 06:28:48 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Kittypie070: Would you conspiracy nutters all just go choke to death on a nice can of cream of bullet soup now?

I only believe in real conspiracies, this isn't one.


What IS the conspiracy anyway? Do they think that the NOAA Weather Service is now seeding clouds from the ground? That the Fisheries Dept. is going to be killing random marlin fishermen? Or are they just unaware that the Fisheries guys are worried about running into drug smugglers on the open sea where a badge and a stern warning might not go very far?
 
2012-08-15 06:34:22 AM  
cdn2-b.examiner.com
 
2012-08-15 06:35:48 AM  

DrBenway: One thing about this thread -- it's going to be pretty easy to tell who went to the linked page and who only read the Fark headline.


This. The morons who didn't RTFA are going to make this thread solid gold.
 
2012-08-15 06:38:27 AM  

propasaurus: So, back during all the furor in the aftermath of the movie theater shooting, gun rights supporters were telling us that one guy buying 6,000 rounds of ammo is not something that should raise a red flag; it's perfectly reasonable for one person to have that much ammo.
Now, a government agency buying 46,000 rounds of ammo is cause for concern and indicative of some deep dark government conspiracy.
But if 6k rounds is an appropriate amount for one person, maybe the NOAA is just buying ammo for 8 guys. No big deal.


Why does the NOAA need any ammo?
 
2012-08-15 06:40:57 AM  
Its the end of the federal fiscal year, so everyone (in the federal gub'mint) is spending the rest of their allocated money. Use it or lose it. They could also be using it for a hedge on inflation as ammo prices have been going up considerably in the last few years...

/I wonder what would happen if Joe-Schmo tried to order 46,000 round of FMJs.
//prolly get watch listed if not visited directly - might get your bible/koran/FSM (recipe) book(s) taken away
///if you see something, SAY something - as long as its not about the gub'mint or the president, you paranoid, right-wing racists.
 
2012-08-15 06:41:30 AM  

BravadoGT: propasaurus: So, back during all the furor in the aftermath of the movie theater shooting, gun rights supporters were telling us that one guy buying 6,000 rounds of ammo is not something that should raise a red flag; it's perfectly reasonable for one person to have that much ammo.
Now, a government agency buying 46,000 rounds of ammo is cause for concern and indicative of some deep dark government conspiracy.
But if 6k rounds is an appropriate amount for one person, maybe the NOAA is just buying ammo for 8 guys. No big deal.

Why does the NOAA need any ammo?


You didn't RTFA didja?

It was really for NOAA's Dept. of Fisheries, which had to deal with drunk fishermen and drug smugglers on the open water without any backup.
 
2012-08-15 06:42:31 AM  
Has the shaking fist at cloud thing not been working for them?
 
2012-08-15 06:43:02 AM  
I love a good conspiracy theory. Don't understand why people get mad about it. It's 99% harmless, and about 20% true...eventually...40 years after everyone who might get hurt by the truth is dead.
 
2012-08-15 06:44:14 AM  
I thought it was FEMA that bought up all the ammo
 
2012-08-15 06:44:15 AM  
Why is if more than likely that republicans are gun nuts and democrats not as much?
 
2012-08-15 06:46:29 AM  

Codenamechaz: Not to worry guys, they'll use those bullets find that biatch Katrina and bring her to justice for what she did to New Orleans.


Hallejuah, brother! They took our jerbz!

/and we're gonna take em back
 
2012-08-15 06:47:07 AM  
I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link
 
2012-08-15 06:47:28 AM  
meanttobefarm.com

this is my not sure if serious look.
 
2012-08-15 06:47:33 AM  
They know that... winter is coming.
 
2012-08-15 06:48:37 AM  

skantea: I love a good conspiracy theory. Don't understand why people get mad about it. It's 99% harmless, and about 20% true...eventually...40 years after everyone who might get hurt by the truth is dead.


I think it all goes to why is the information "classified"? for , why is the gub'mint, who likes to tout just how open they are, classifying things that would otherwise not matter?

case-in-point 1: why has the FBI "classified" (or otherwise ruled out releasing) the 50+ surveillance videos of the plane hitting the pentagon? that makes no sense. So, people "assume" that something is being covered up. I think that natural to a degree, but at the same time, people tend to go WAY too far on these things.

case-in-point 2: Why is our president - who ran on a ticket of openness and transparency spending so much money to hide his school financial records? it makes no sense, so people "assume" there is something to hide.

there are a LOT of questions about a LOT of things. In the end, what can be done about ANY of them?
 
2012-08-15 06:51:45 AM  

Gyrfalcon: BravadoGT: propasaurus: So, back during all the furor in the aftermath of the movie theater shooting, gun rights supporters were telling us that one guy buying 6,000 rounds of ammo is not something that should raise a red flag; it's perfectly reasonable for one person to have that much ammo.
Now, a government agency buying 46,000 rounds of ammo is cause for concern and indicative of some deep dark government conspiracy.
But if 6k rounds is an appropriate amount for one person, maybe the NOAA is just buying ammo for 8 guys. No big deal.

Why does the NOAA need any ammo?

You didn't RTFA didja?

It was really for NOAA's Dept. of Fisheries, which had to deal with drunk fishermen and drug smugglers on the open water without any backup.


It would be easier to believe if the ammo was for fish&game. When was the last time someone tried to take over a fish hatchery?
 
2012-08-15 06:52:46 AM  

Triumph: ourbigdumbmouth: There has been an awful lot of ammo orders recently. DHS, now this.

I just wonder how this compares to previous years.

Maybe they're just stockpiling like the tea party are.

On a completely unrelated note, I wonder how the Syrian rebels are getting all that ammo?


The Syrian ammo is being procured by a National Endowment for the Arts request.
 
2012-08-15 06:53:55 AM  
More like National Weather UNDERGROUND, amirite! Thanks for nothing, Bill Ayers.
 
2012-08-15 06:54:06 AM  

untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link


yeah, but remember, DHS has what? - 8 or 10 agencies under it, so they could be buying ammo for the whole lot (save for the secret service)... the coast gaurd is one of them too... divide that by how many employees?, how many of which are "officially" armed and need to re-certify every year?, yadda yadda yadda... lobster bisque...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Sec u rity
 
2012-08-15 06:54:57 AM  

BostonEMT: skantea: I love a good conspiracy theory. Don't understand why people get mad about it. It's 99% harmless, and about 20% true...eventually...40 years after everyone who might get hurt by the truth is dead.

I think it all goes to why is the information "classified"? for , why is the gub'mint, who likes to tout just how open they are, classifying things that would otherwise not matter?

case-in-point 1: why has the FBI "classified" (or otherwise ruled out releasing) the 50+ surveillance videos of the plane hitting the pentagon? that makes no sense. So, people "assume" that something is being covered up. I think that natural to a degree, but at the same time, people tend to go WAY too far on these things.

case-in-point 2: Why is our president - who ran on a ticket of openness and transparency spending so much money to hide his school financial records? it makes no sense, so people "assume" there is something to hide.

there are a LOT of questions about a LOT of things. In the end, what can be done about ANY of them?


Case-in-point 3: Why is our "president" spending 2 mill of taxpayer money on lawyers to keep his birth certificate sealed, and to fight any attempt in court to unseal it? No previous president has done this, but then previous presidents have been legal Americans.
 
2012-08-15 06:56:02 AM  

BostonEMT: untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link

yeah, but remember, DHS has what? - 8 or 10 agencies under it, so they could be buying ammo for the whole lot (save for the secret service)... the coast gaurd is one of them too... divide that by how many employees?, how many of which are "officially" armed and need to re-certify every year?, yadda yadda yadda... lobster bisque...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Sec u rity


Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?
 
2012-08-15 06:58:39 AM  

ourbigdumbmouth: There has been an awful lot of ammo orders recently. DHS, now this.

I just wonder how this compares to previous years.

Maybe they're just stockpiling like the tea party are.


This isn't all that much ammunition, though. If they have just a couple hundred officers then this is probably just August's normal order for training purposes.
 
2012-08-15 06:58:54 AM  
If this is being stockpiled to mow down all the right wing nutbags who are going to go into Atomic WHARRGARBL Riot Mode the day After Obama wins this November, I'm OK with this.
 
2012-08-15 06:59:41 AM  

Shirley Ujest: Why is if more than likely that republicans are gun nuts and democrats not as much?


Because Democrats supported things like the Gun control act, the Hughes amendment, and the assault weapons ban.

/Its like asking why pro-choice people tend to be Democrats.
/When a party makes banning something into a part of its political foundation, people who appose it join other parties.
 
2012-08-15 07:00:12 AM  
If you were in tornado alley, you wouldn't want to be armed? Have you seen what's happening to the state of Kansas. 46,000 rounds might not be enough.
 
2012-08-15 07:00:44 AM  
Beware of The Fish Police.
 
2012-08-15 07:00:50 AM  

BravadoGT: propasaurus: So, back during all the furor in the aftermath of the movie theater shooting, gun rights supporters were telling us that one guy buying 6,000 rounds of ammo is not something that should raise a red flag; it's perfectly reasonable for one person to have that much ammo.
Now, a government agency buying 46,000 rounds of ammo is cause for concern and indicative of some deep dark government conspiracy.
But if 6k rounds is an appropriate amount for one person, maybe the NOAA is just buying ammo for 8 guys. No big deal.

Why does the NOAA need any ammo?


disinfo.s3.amazonaws.com
 
2012-08-15 07:01:14 AM  

Shirley Ujest: Why is if more than likely that republicans are gun nuts and democrats not as much?


.
.
If by gun nuts you mean people who lawfully own and use their guns safely and in accordance with the US constitution, that would be Republicans.

Progressive Democrats tend to by their guns from the trunks of cars and shoot their own children while doing drive by shootings and holding up 7-11s. These creatures are highly respected in your bizarro world.
 
2012-08-15 07:02:28 AM  

BravadoGT: propasaurus: So, back during all the furor in the aftermath of the movie theater shooting, gun rights supporters were telling us that one guy buying 6,000 rounds of ammo is not something that should raise a red flag; it's perfectly reasonable for one person to have that much ammo.
Now, a government agency buying 46,000 rounds of ammo is cause for concern and indicative of some deep dark government conspiracy.
But if 6k rounds is an appropriate amount for one person, maybe the NOAA is just buying ammo for 8 guys. No big deal.

Why does the NOAA need any ammo?


They have police officers.
 
2012-08-15 07:03:13 AM  

wee: Asa Phelps: I asked if they saw the irony in that.

My local gun store has a picture of Obama on the wall with "Salesman of the Year" signs below it for every year since he was elected. He's done a lot to increase gun sales, actually.

propasaurus: But if 6k rounds is an appropriate amount for one person, maybe the NOAA is just buying ammo for 8 guys. No big deal.

It isn't really. If things shoot them at 650 and 750 rounds a minute, that adds up fast. So it pays the casual shooter to buy in bulk when you find a good deal.


A minute? With a pistol?
 
2012-08-15 07:03:50 AM  
Headline: Conspiracy theorists

BostonEMT:
skantea: I love a good conspiracy theory.
50+ surveillance videos of the plane hitting the pentagon
our president - who ran on a ticket of openness and transparency spending so much money to hide his school financial records?


Is this a joke?
 
2012-08-15 07:04:59 AM  

untaken_name: BostonEMT: untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link

yeah, but remember, DHS has what? - 8 or 10 agencies under it, so they could be buying ammo for the whole lot (save for the secret service)... the coast gaurd is one of them too... divide that by how many employees?, how many of which are "officially" armed and need to re-certify every year?, yadda yadda yadda... lobster bisque...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Sec u rity

Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?


They're not training with target rounds.
 
2012-08-15 07:06:29 AM  

Asa Phelps: You mean the NOAA Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement.


Required the gubment to own up to their error. Oh and can someone please explain why NOAA enforces anything? Isn't there some other government agency that does this?
 
2012-08-15 07:07:52 AM  

untaken_name: BostonEMT: untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link

yeah, but remember, DHS has what? - 8 or 10 agencies under it, so they could be buying ammo for the whole lot (save for the secret service)... the coast gaurd is one of them too... divide that by how many employees?, how many of which are "officially" armed and need to re-certify every year?, yadda yadda yadda... lobster bisque...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Sec u rity

Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?


You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.

Also, you have to *PRACTICE* to maintain proficiency.
 
2012-08-15 07:09:26 AM  

gameshowhost: *reads*

Yup. Alex Jones. He's got an amazing record for uncovering plots and simultaneously not whiffing on everything else he proclaims.

/so i was told, just recently


He has an amazing record of keeping everybody's eye off the ball, which is his job.

People are convicted of conspiracy every day in this country, black guys "conspiring" to sell crack and whatnot for a few thousand bucks. But start wondering what lengths people would go to for BILLIONS and whoa there Sparky, that's a conspiracy theory.
 
2012-08-15 07:11:06 AM  

dittybopper: You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.


Balderdash.

Ball ammo at the gun range, hollow points on the free range.
 
2012-08-15 07:12:12 AM  
That isnt unusual. A lot of departments go through several hundred rounds per officer once or twice a year for practice and qualifications. More for specialized agencies/officers. Really nothing to see here.
 
2012-08-15 07:12:59 AM  

untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link


Buy in bulk to save money?
I don't know much about what DHS does with it all, or if they also stockpile for emergencies. But I doubt they'd ever run short if it came to murdering civilians anyway, so I'll wager the number is more about some contractual stuff than anything nefarious.

100 rounds per session is just warm up. A competition shooter can burn over a thousand, easy.
Officers have to qualify and do various training exercises. So somewhere in between is where they'd be if they did more than stand still and point at the paper.

/46,000 isn't that much, considering.
/A billion is much, but maybe not if they train alot and deliveries are spread out over years.
/Its the whole "why do you need a gun" foolishness that's got us asking retarded questions.
 
2012-08-15 07:14:10 AM  

Captain_Ballbeard: dittybopper: You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.

Balderdash.

Ball ammo at the gun range, hollow points on the free range.


Ball because its cheap and many pistols aren't very accurate.
But if we're talking rifles, there can be a distinct performance difference.
 
2012-08-15 07:15:20 AM  

mister aj: Case-in-point 3: Why is our "president" spending 2 mill of taxpayer money on lawyers to keep his birth certificate sealed, and to fight any attempt in court to unseal it? No previous president has done this, but then previous presidents have been legal Americans.


Because people are stupid and will believe anything they hear without question.. like stories that the guy who released his birth certificate to the public, twice, which is two times more than any other president before him, is somehow trying to hide his birth certificate. And that a Hawaiian birth certificate will somehow... prove? his lack of citizenship.

/NSIS, but too many people *still* believe that, including one guy who I used to think was reasonably bright.
 
2012-08-15 07:16:36 AM  
We train NOAA here in the simulators. The stories of the nut-cases they encounter curl your skin back. They need to protect themselves. No one seem to realize out on the ocean it's worse than the sterotypes of the old times wild west.
 
2012-08-15 07:16:41 AM  
So now the mainstream MSM media is writing stories about guys who fling their caca agains the wall and scream that it makes a picture of the Prophet Scapulus whispering Templar secrets about the melting point of steel.

Cool.
 
2012-08-15 07:18:32 AM  

way south: Captain_Ballbeard: dittybopper: You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.

Balderdash.

Ball ammo at the gun range, hollow points on the free range.

Ball because its cheap and many pistols aren't very accurate.
But if we're talking rifles, there can be a distinct performance difference.


Yeah, so train on a comfy range with the most accurate ammo you can find, that will translate into success when under pressure.
 
2012-08-15 07:23:08 AM  

untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link


That doesn't worry me at all.
DHS employes something like 200,000 people. That works out to 6 bullets a person. They need to maintain some kind of stock, and they need bullets to practice with as well.

DHS wants to stock up on pistol ammo? No problem. DHS orders 1.2 billion .50 bmg rounds, or 40mm grenade rounds, then I'll start worrying.
 
2012-08-15 07:23:27 AM  

tkwasny: We train NOAA here in the simulators. The stories of the nut-cases they encounter curl your skin back. They need to protect themselves. No one seem to realize out on the ocean it's worse than the sterotypes of the old times wild west.


I was drinking with a Florida Fish and Wildlife guy once, he was shot at (and missed) by Cubans who had loaded a 12' fiberglass v-hull to the gunnels with Rock Lobsters. He said he didn't even have time to react before the guy was empty and threw his gun over the side - in 8' of water lol. The other one jammed the throttle to Full, jumped and took off swimming. He said he doesn't like being offshore.
 
2012-08-15 07:24:46 AM  

meanmutton: untaken_name: BostonEMT: untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link

yeah, but remember, DHS has what? - 8 or 10 agencies under it, so they could be buying ammo for the whole lot (save for the secret service)... the coast gaurd is one of them too... divide that by how many employees?, how many of which are "officially" armed and need to re-certify every year?, yadda yadda yadda... lobster bisque...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Sec u rity

Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?

They're not training with target rounds.


So our military can't use hollowpoint rounds but it's okay for the DHS to? Additionally, if they're using them for target practice, they're going to dramatically increase the cost of maintaining those ranges. Additionally, the difference between firing FMJ and firing hollowpoints is tiny, except to the target. Finally, if *I* have to use FMJ at the range, they should, too.
 
2012-08-15 07:26:10 AM  

Captain_Ballbeard: way south: Captain_Ballbeard: dittybopper: You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.

Balderdash.

Ball ammo at the gun range, hollow points on the free range.

Ball because its cheap and many pistols aren't very accurate.
But if we're talking rifles, there can be a distinct performance difference.

Yeah, so train on a comfy range with the most accurate ammo you can find, that will translate into success when under pressure.


Well ball ammo is good for the basics, since it is cheaper. And I can understand a majority of your practice being ball. (maybe 60%?) but you need to fire the rounds you fire in a real situation as they will probably be +P.
 
2012-08-15 07:26:33 AM  

untaken_name: Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?


I agree that they need to clarify what the rounds will be used for - but I'm not too scared just yet. You act as if they're going to line up all the willing americans and off'em. If you're implying that thats a LOT of ammo - which in the civilian sense, it is - but in a "military sense", it isn't.

If you're going to go down "that path" and fear that DHS is going to over-run the civilian population, i encourage you to look at the ratios of rounds per kill in the last few wars. In Vietnam, it was 200,000 rounds of ammo per enemy combatant killed. so 1.6 billion rounds pencils out to 8,000 deaths (in a military combat situation). and thats assuming no rounds are used for practice or qualifying....

/maybe they need to start taking some notes on chicago/L.A./NYC gang bangers.
 
2012-08-15 07:26:55 AM  
I think the real question here is, "Who knew that the NOAA had a armed tean to handle the dangers of fisheries and where is their reality TV show?"
 
2012-08-15 07:27:26 AM  

MythDragon: untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link

That doesn't worry me at all.
DHS employes something like 200,000 people. That works out to 6 bullets a person. They need to maintain some kind of stock, and they need bullets to practice with as well.

DHS wants to stock up on pistol ammo? No problem. DHS orders 1.2 billion .50 bmg rounds, or 40mm grenade rounds, then I'll start worrying.


You're off by a factor of 1000. 1,200,000,000 / 200,000 = 6000, not 6. Additionally, I doubt the secretaries and janitors and car pool guys carry guns.
 
2012-08-15 07:30:03 AM  

BostonEMT: untaken_name: Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?

I agree that they need to clarify what the rounds will be used for - but I'm not too scared just yet. You act as if they're going to line up all the willing americans and off'em. If you're implying that thats a LOT of ammo - which in the civilian sense, it is - but in a "military sense", it isn't.

If you're going to go down "that path" and fear that DHS is going to over-run the civilian population, i encourage you to look at the ratios of rounds per kill in the last few wars. In Vietnam, it was 200,000 rounds of ammo per enemy combatant killed. so 1.6 billion rounds pencils out to 8,000 deaths (in a military combat situation). and thats assuming no rounds are used for practice or qualifying....

/maybe they need to start taking some notes on chicago/L.A./NYC gang bangers.


1. the DHS isn't a military force
2. Any fighting in urban areas will be completely different from the jungle environment of vietnam
3. DHS has been training its people for years without making such large ammo and riot gear purchases
4. why the sudden need to train with hollowpoint when they haven't been in the past?
 
2012-08-15 07:31:10 AM  

untaken_name: So our military can't use hollowpoint rounds but it's okay for the DHS to?


THAT is an good and interesting point...
 
2012-08-15 07:32:12 AM  

untaken_name: BostonEMT: untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link

yeah, but remember, DHS has what? - 8 or 10 agencies under it, so they could be buying ammo for the whole lot (save for the secret service)... the coast gaurd is one of them too... divide that by how many employees?, how many of which are "officially" armed and need to re-certify every year?, yadda yadda yadda... lobster bisque...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Sec u rity

Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?


Well, that is assuming every single shot hits. Do keep in mind that it is rather typical to carry at least 2 spare magazine on the belt along with the one in the gun. I don't know exactly which guns they are loading these rounds in but i highly doubt they are using 10 round magazine. Probably 12 of 15 round magazines. Assuming 12 round magazines and that they aren't walking around with 1 round already chambered that is a minimum of 36 rounds of ammo per user. Take it up to a 15 round mag and that is a minimum of 45 rounds per user.

At 36 rounds a user 1.2 billion round would equip 33.3 million users. Of course that math only works out if every one of them is only carrying 2 spare magazines and absolutely nothing is left in storage anywhere which is absurd.

One person going through something like shoot house training can easily go through over 1,000 rounds in one day. Even normal range shooting can easily use over 100 rounds in an hour. These people are required to go through routine qualifications and tons of training. Assuming everybody was still only carrying 12 round magazines and going through training and qualifications once per year and never visiting the range outside of that a figure of 1136 rounds per user leave you able to equip a little over a million users. Again, that is with the absurd assumption that nothing is being stockpiled or stored and all of it is either being used at ranges or being carried.

Increase even some of the guns to 15 round magazines, assume some users are walking around with more that 2 spare magazines on them or they have extra magazines stored in a vehicle, and that spare ammo is distributed to stations/bases all over the entire continent and what you are left with is an extremely reasonable amount of ammo for a single year.

If you think 1.2 billion rounds is that much pistol ammo for something like 1/3 to 1/2 of the government then you really don't want to think about how many rounds of .223 they use just practicing with M16s on burst fire.
 
2012-08-15 07:33:18 AM  

MythDragon: Captain_Ballbeard: way south: Captain_Ballbeard: dittybopper: You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.

Balderdash.

Ball ammo at the gun range, hollow points on the free range.

Ball because its cheap and many pistols aren't very accurate.
But if we're talking rifles, there can be a distinct performance difference.

Yeah, so train on a comfy range with the most accurate ammo you can find, that will translate into success when under pressure.

Well ball ammo is good for the basics, since it is cheaper. And I can understand a majority of your practice being ball. (maybe 60%?) but you need to fire the rounds you fire in a real situation as they will probably be +P.


Consider this: From a price standpoint, it may actually be cheaper to buy 46,000 rounds of hollowpoint in a single caliber than it is to buy X rounds of ball and Y rounds of hollowpoint which added together total up to 46,000 rounds. You'd get a bigger discount that way.
 
2012-08-15 07:34:23 AM  

Big Dave: Headline: Conspiracy theorists

BostonEMT: skantea: I love a good conspiracy theory.
50+ surveillance videos of the plane hitting the pentagon
our president - who ran on a ticket of openness and transparency spending so much money to hide his school financial records?

Is this a joke?


no - they are questions whose answers are classified, no *apparently* good reason.

/please feel free to give us the answers.
 
2012-08-15 07:34:26 AM  

Captain_Ballbeard: way south: Captain_Ballbeard: dittybopper: You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.

Balderdash.

Ball ammo at the gun range, hollow points on the free range.

Ball because its cheap and many pistols aren't very accurate.
But if we're talking rifles, there can be a distinct performance difference.

Yeah, so train on a comfy range with the most accurate ammo you can find, that will translate into success when under pressure.


Like I said, I don't know how they spend it. But I'd think the point is not to train in air conditioned comfort but to get all dressed up in your battle rattle and try to simulate actual situations.Make the guys run a bit, shoot at moving targets, do the whole killhouse routine and whatever else it is they do.

I mean, consider the real scenario you are preparing for. Say you need to shoot at a crazy man standing near other people or chase a suspect into a house. How accurate is your gun? Can you reliably gamble on this thing? How likely is it to jam?

If the cheap stuff groups in a dinner plate sized area and the good stuff gives you groupings the size of a coaster, its going to make a difference in training and that translates to the final decision.
An officer might pass up an easy shot because he just doesn't trust his rig.
 
2012-08-15 07:38:33 AM  

Hacker_X: If you think 1.2 billion rounds is that much pistol ammo for something like 1/3 to 1/2 of the government then you really don't want to think about how many rounds of .223 they use just practicing with M16s on burst fire.


DHS isn't 1/3 of the government. Have you ever seen what hollowpoints do to target ranges? The difference to the shooter is minimal, as I know from firsthand experience, but the difference to the target is major. That is the whole reason that every pistol range I've ever been a member of forbids the use of hollowpoints and requires the use of FMJ for practice. No one has yet said anything which overcomes these objections in explaining why DHS would need to target shoot with hollowpoints. No one has even explained why it's ok for the DHS to USE hollowpoints when they violate the Hague Convention*.

/*Yes I understand that the Hague Convention applies specifically to international warfare, but what I'm really looking for is an explanation for why our purpose-built killers can't use hollowpoints because they're so bad and mean but our "protection" agency has no problem with it.
 
2012-08-15 07:39:02 AM  
Even if it had been for the NWS, they have many facilities, a lot in remote areas. I would guess that they have security guards at many of them. You know, guards that carry a pistol.
 
2012-08-15 07:39:22 AM  

dittybopper: Consider this: From a price standpoint, it may actually be cheaper to buy 46,000 rounds of hollowpoint in a single caliber than it is to buy X rounds of ball and Y rounds of hollowpoint which added together total up to 46,000 rounds. You'd get a bigger discount that way.


But if you use hollowpoints at the range you have to repair the range much more often. That would easily outweigh any discount you'd get.
 
2012-08-15 07:42:17 AM  

BravadoGT: propasaurus: So, back during all the furor in the aftermath of the movie theater shooting, gun rights supporters were telling us that one guy buying 6,000 rounds of ammo is not something that should raise a red flag; it's perfectly reasonable for one person to have that much ammo.
Now, a government agency buying 46,000 rounds of ammo is cause for concern and indicative of some deep dark government conspiracy.
But if 6k rounds is an appropriate amount for one person, maybe the NOAA is just buying ammo for 8 guys. No big deal.

Why does the NOAA need any ammo?


Because their weather control technology cannot kill only one at a time yet. H.A.A.R.P still needs some work and you never know when the shiat will hit the fan.
 
2012-08-15 07:42:23 AM  

untaken_name:
1. the DHS isn't a military force
2. Any fighting in urban areas will be completely different from the jungle environment of vietnam
3. DHS has been training its people for years without making such large ammo and riot gear purchases
4. why the sudden need to train with hollowpoint when they haven't been in the past?



1. DHS HAS military capability - one need only look at the Coast Guard before you get into the mazes of executive orders, patriot acts and COG plans.
2. This is true, but the civilian population is also well armed, and knows their own neighborhoods better and has more to fight for.
3. again true, which is why I think they need to explain themselves. They've also purchased a metric ass-load of bullet-proof guard towers for no *apparent* reason.
4. idk (my bff jill?). call it end of fiscal year spending - although most orders were placed prior to this season, let alone this month.

This is the whole point of the thread i think - is that there are so many questions, that the gub'mint's failure to answer them only breeds paranoia and conspiracy theories. It seems they are getting ready to take on the consequences, but are unable/unwilling to take on the cause...
 
2012-08-15 07:46:36 AM  

BostonEMT: Big Dave: Headline: Conspiracy theorists

BostonEMT: skantea: I love a good conspiracy theory.
50+ surveillance videos of the plane hitting the pentagon
our president - who ran on a ticket of openness and transparency spending so much money to hide his school financial records?

Is this a joke?

no - they are questions whose answers are classified, no *apparently* good reason.

/please feel free to give us the answers.


So how much does it cost to "hide" your own school records?
 
2012-08-15 07:48:34 AM  
But is it that AK-47 Glock assault ammo that we've been hearing about lately?
 
2012-08-15 07:49:22 AM  
I dont know if anyone has pointed this out yet, but its weird to order that much hollowpoint. Normally you need a lot of ammo for practice shooting, hollowpoints are not for target shooting, theyre for making nasty wounds.
 
2012-08-15 07:51:25 AM  

Asa Phelps: .

Back when barry soetoro was freshly elected, he and his other bircher friend - who i was bowling in league with at the time - were discussing how sure they were that obama wants to ban the sale of guns but knows that he can't so he'll ban the sale of ammunition.

.

Yeah, what's up with that theory, my dumb ass brother in law has such conspiratorial fantasies yet ammo is still for sale everywhere. But he assures me that the day will come when 0bama will ban ammo. He must be waiting for that uncertain second term with a divided congress to do such drastic action, just for dramatic affect you know.
 
2012-08-15 07:52:01 AM  

nytmare: BostonEMT: Big Dave: Headline: Conspiracy theorists

BostonEMT: skantea: I love a good conspiracy theory.
50+ surveillance videos of the plane hitting the pentagon
our president - who ran on a ticket of openness and transparency spending so much money to hide his school financial records?

Is this a joke?

no - they are questions whose answers are classified, no *apparently* good reason.

/please feel free to give us the answers.

So how much does it cost to "hide" your own school records?


You can use google just as easily as I can - and if your plan is to answer a question WITH a question, you're only ADDING to the conspiracy theory.
 
2012-08-15 07:54:42 AM  

untaken_name: dittybopper: Consider this: From a price standpoint, it may actually be cheaper to buy 46,000 rounds of hollowpoint in a single caliber than it is to buy X rounds of ball and Y rounds of hollowpoint which added together total up to 46,000 rounds. You'd get a bigger discount that way.

But if you use hollowpoints at the range you have to repair the range much more often. That would easily outweigh any discount you'd get.


How often do you have to repair a berm?

Also, while I don't really have that much experience in indoor pistol range maintenance, it seems to me that ball ammo, being less likely to use up its energy expanding, would tear up the backstops more than hollowpoints. I suppose it would depend on what you are using, of course, but if the backstop is an angled steel plate with some medium to catch the bullets below (like sand, whatever), then it would seem to me that hollowpoints would cause less damage.

In investigating this, though, it appears that many indoor ranges don't allow hollowpoints not because they tear up the backstop, but because of the danger that the jacket might separate (more likely to happen with JHP/JSP ammo than FMJ) and the jacket might come back at the shooter. Outdoor ranges generally use dirt to stop the bullets (less ricochet danger), and the backstop is farther away, so it's not a problem.

Apparently some indoor ranges do allow JSP/JHP ammo, btw, so obvious it can be done safely, and without undue wear and tear on the backstop, which seems like a bullshiat excuse to me.
 
2012-08-15 07:56:21 AM  
Those weathermen need protection from all of the people who were promised sunshine last weekend and then got rain all over their picnics and beach parties.
 
2012-08-15 07:56:29 AM  
I wonder if that is one of those government organizations where you could run into Valerie Plame in the lobby?
 
2012-08-15 07:57:03 AM  

ourbigdumbmouth: There has been an awful lot of ammo orders recently. DHS, now this.

I just wonder how this compares to previous years.

Maybe they're just stockpiling like the tea party are.


They tend to buy on a three or five-year cycle, so last year and the year before, zero rounds were purchased.

zOMG that's an INFINITY PERCENT INCREASE! CLEARLY THE WILDLIFE SERVICE WILL KILL US ALL!

//It's a good idea to be armed when patrolling around wildlife conservation areas and national parks, that's where the cartels have most of their grow ops and those guys don't fark around. Plus, fisheries = bears in a lot of areas, hollowpoints about the only thing that will give even a small bear pause while you run the fark away if you find a rabid one.

//Generally when you're doing your yearly marksmanship qualification, if hollowpoint is what you're issued in the field, that's what'll be on the test, making it wise to practice with it for at least a few mags.
 
2012-08-15 07:59:02 AM  

Gyrfalcon: BravadoGT: propasaurus: So, back during all the furor in the aftermath of the movie theater shooting, gun rights supporters were telling us that one guy buying 6,000 rounds of ammo is not something that should raise a red flag; it's perfectly reasonable for one person to have that much ammo.
Now, a government agency buying 46,000 rounds of ammo is cause for concern and indicative of some deep dark government conspiracy.
But if 6k rounds is an appropriate amount for one person, maybe the NOAA is just buying ammo for 8 guys. No big deal.

Why does the NOAA need any ammo?

You didn't RTFA didja?

It was really for NOAA's Dept. of Fisheries, which had to deal with drunk fishermen and drug smugglers on the open water without any backup.


But they still wouldn't be allowed hollow points. Since they have been outlawed in combat for over a hundred years I would think that they wouldn't be used by law enforcement either.
 
2012-08-15 08:01:23 AM  

Cybernetic: Those weathermen need protection from all of the people who were promised sunshine last weekend and then got rain all over their picnics and beach parties.


Thats what you get in San Diego, homie. Thats how we roll, esse.
 
2012-08-15 08:02:25 AM  
mysteryworlds.files.wordpress.com

They know what's coming.
 
2012-08-15 08:03:52 AM  
Want to have some fun? Go to the site Abovetopsecret.com and have a look around.

/was a member for a while but kept getting threatened because I dared try to debunk a stupid "conspiracy". Glad I escaped.
 
2012-08-15 08:09:28 AM  
The fisheries dept at NOAA is made up of 2 branches, the scientists which we all hear about, and the enforcement or police branch which you don't hear about unless you are in a fishing community like Gloucester MA.

They have a police/enforcement branch for the same reason the National Parks Service Rangers have one. They enforce federal law on federal territory, and they have to deal with people who are armed.

Csb time.

The enforcement branch has gotten NMFS in trouble with overreaching their authority and totally farked up any good will and rapport the scientists had with the fishermen.
 
2012-08-15 08:14:53 AM  
To be fair, you could change the part of the headline here that says "National Weather Service order for 46,000 rounds of hollowpoint ammo" to any fargin' thing you want and it would still be accurate. "sighting of opossum in my backyard" "wrong change giving at super market" "hot air balloon crash" "speeding motorist" "lawn watering" "paint drying faster than normal".
 
2012-08-15 08:15:15 AM  
Weathermen are fed up with everybody's biatchin'!!!
 
2012-08-15 08:15:49 AM  
www.trailertheater.com

This is why they need all that ammo, to hunt the El Nino and save the planet.
 
2012-08-15 08:15:57 AM  

Katolu: Want to have some fun? Go to the site Abovetopsecret.com and have a look around.

/was a member for a while but kept getting threatened because I dared try to debunk a stupid "conspiracy". Glad I escaped.


Every so often, when I have the time, I'll listen to Alex Jones on shortwave. It's actually kind of funny.
 
2012-08-15 08:17:43 AM  

gilatrout: The enforcement branch has gotten NMFS in trouble with overreaching their authority and totally farked up any good will and rapport the scientists had with the fishermen.


Go figure. Goons and pigs are never good ambassadors.
 
2012-08-15 08:23:40 AM  

dittybopper: Katolu: Want to have some fun? Go to the site Abovetopsecret.com and have a look around.

/was a member for a while but kept getting threatened because I dared try to debunk a stupid "conspiracy". Glad I escaped.

Every so often, when I have the time, I'll listen to Alex Jones on shortwave. It's actually kind of funny.


Alex Jones serves his purpose. When people start looking at the Grassy Knoll, he starts screaming about Elvis being spotted nearby in a UFO. Perps whistle and walk away.

If you listen to SW you know what S/N is. Alex's job is to be the N.

"Missiles on 9/11 planes, thermite, Elvis, fake OBL. Cui Bono? What does that mean?", asks Alex Jones, Mike Ruppert et al.
 
2012-08-15 08:26:54 AM  

untaken_name: Hacker_X: If you think 1.2 billion rounds is that much pistol ammo for something like 1/3 to 1/2 of the government then you really don't want to think about how many rounds of .223 they use just practicing with M16s on burst fire.

DHS isn't 1/3 of the government. Have you ever seen what hollowpoints do to target ranges? The difference to the shooter is minimal, as I know from firsthand experience, but the difference to the target is major. That is the whole reason that every pistol range I've ever been a member of forbids the use of hollowpoints and requires the use of FMJ for practice. No one has yet said anything which overcomes these objections in explaining why DHS would need to target shoot with hollowpoints. No one has even explained why it's ok for the DHS to USE hollowpoints when they violate the Hague Convention*.

/*Yes I understand that the Hague Convention applies specifically to international warfare, but what I'm really looking for is an explanation for why our purpose-built killers can't use hollowpoints because they're so bad and mean but our "protection" agency has no problem with it.


Total Federal government, no. Armed federal government member operating domestically? That is a different matter. Other the different divisions of DHS you have The FBI and US Marshals. Those are the two major ones for the feds. Most other stuff either is covered by DHS, doesn't operate inside the US (or isn't supposed to at least), or is a military branch.

Sure, you do have an armed division of The USPS and I think some park rangers are armed but their main concern is stuff like poachers and bears and the total number of armed officers from both of those isn't going to be that big of a number.

Hollow points may require more maintenance at indoor ranges but hey, it is just tax payer money so so what? On top of that despite what most movies would have you believe an enormous number of training ranges are outdoor rather than indoor. Dirt and sand backstops really don't care what kind of ammo you are using and "repairs" are quick and cheap.

Officers train and qualify with their service guns and ammo. It is just that simple.

And the Hague convention ignores one EXTREMELY important factor that nobody really cares about on a battlefield (at least when it was written). A hollow point round with either not exit the body or lose most of its energy on the way through and not pose a lethal risk to those behind the target unless they are very close. A FMJ round will just go right on through and is still very much a lethal risk to those behind the target. If you get right down to it, the way the Hague convention was worded to start with it didn't ban hollow point ammo. It said you weren't supposed to cause superfluous injury. AKA you are supposed to use stuff designed to kill, not to wound. Somehow out of that people decided that hollow points were bad and FMJ was good even though both are designed to kill the target.
 
2012-08-15 08:30:38 AM  

BostonEMT: untaken_name: Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?

I agree that they need to clarify what the rounds will be used for - but I'm not too scared just yet. You act as if they're going to line up all the willing americans and off'em. If you're implying that thats a LOT of ammo - which in the civilian sense, it is - but in a "military sense", it isn't.

If you're going to go down "that path" and fear that DHS is going to over-run the civilian population, i encourage you to look at the ratios of rounds per kill in the last few wars. In Vietnam, it was 200,000 rounds of ammo per enemy combatant killed. so 1.6 billion rounds pencils out to 8,000 deaths (in a military combat situation). and thats assuming no rounds are used for practice or qualifying....

/maybe they need to start taking some notes on chicago/L.A./NYC gang bangers.


Yeah, I can see that.

s2.wallls.com
 
2012-08-15 08:31:25 AM  

Hacker_X: A FMJ round will just go right on through and is still very much a lethal risk to those behind the target. If you get right down to it, the way the Hague convention was worded to start with it didn't ban hollow point ammo. It said you weren't supposed to cause superfluous injury. AKA you are supposed to use stuff designed to kill, not to wound. Somehow out of that people decided that hollow points were bad and FMJ was good even though both are designed to kill the target.


Sounds like expanding ammo would meet the rules better then.
 
2012-08-15 08:33:44 AM  

Deep Contact:
Yeah, I can see that.

[s2.wallls.com image 590x331]


see how they hold their guns sideways?
 
2012-08-15 08:36:01 AM  

Captain_Ballbeard: Hacker_X: A FMJ round will just go right on through and is still very much a lethal risk to those behind the target. If you get right down to it, the way the Hague convention was worded to start with it didn't ban hollow point ammo. It said you weren't supposed to cause superfluous injury. AKA you are supposed to use stuff designed to kill, not to wound. Somehow out of that people decided that hollow points were bad and FMJ was good even though both are designed to kill the target.

Sounds like expanding ammo would meet the rules better then.


yeah - I figured FMJs would cause less cavitation than PPRs.

/oh well, treat 'em and street 'em
 
2012-08-15 08:36:43 AM  
Shooting fish in a barrel?
 
2012-08-15 08:36:54 AM  
i168.photobucket.com

This is just a false flag operation by the Office of Naval Research to distract the public from what is going on at HAARP. Already plans are under way to flip the Earth's magnetic poles in order to make the planet habitable by the Vril-ya. The government has been trying to stop me and my psychic cat from making contact with the Ascended Masters by breaking the channel selector on my television and forcing me to watch re-runs of The George Lopez Show during my lunch hour. I was able to adjust the amplitude of my hot plate to send a microburst signal beacon to Maitreya and soon if we all focus on the Secret Chamber of the Great Pyramid of Giza we will be able to lower the temperature of the Earth a full degree and stop their plans.
 
2012-08-15 08:44:45 AM  

ChuckyV: This is just a false flag operation by the Office of Naval Research to distract the public from what is going on at HAARP. Already plans are under way to flip the Earth's magnetic poles in order to make the planet habitable by the Vril-ya. The government has been trying to stop me and my psychic cat from making contact with the Ascended Masters by breaking the channel selector on my television and forcing me to watch re-runs of The George Lopez Show during my lunch hour. I was able to adjust the amplitude of my hot plate to send a microburst signal beacon to Maitreya and soon if we all focus on the Secret Chamber of the Great Pyramid of Giza we will be able to lower the temperature of the Earth a full degree and stop their plans.


sounds like you're already wearing your purple Nike's
 
2012-08-15 08:47:44 AM  

Captain_Ballbeard: dittybopper: Katolu: Want to have some fun? Go to the site Abovetopsecret.com and have a look around.

/was a member for a while but kept getting threatened because I dared try to debunk a stupid "conspiracy". Glad I escaped.

Every so often, when I have the time, I'll listen to Alex Jones on shortwave. It's actually kind of funny.

Alex Jones serves his purpose. When people start looking at the Grassy Knoll, he starts screaming about Elvis being spotted nearby in a UFO. Perps whistle and walk away.

If you listen to SW you know what S/N is. Alex's job is to be the N.

"Missiles on 9/11 planes, thermite, Elvis, fake OBL. Cui Bono? What does that mean?", asks Alex Jones, Mike Ruppert et al.


Actually, in English, almost all of the domestic broadcasters are religious stations. Hell, even Alex Jones is on a religious station (WWCR). The only one I know of that isn't religious per se is WBCQ up in Maine, and they do rent out airtime to religious shows.
 
2012-08-15 08:48:29 AM  

BostonEMT: sounds like you're already wearing your purple Nike's


A nurple pike would be a formidable weapon.
 
2012-08-15 08:49:18 AM  
It just cracks me up that people are surprised that law enforcement organizations buy ammo, and in bulk. As if they didn't realize that the government is well armed, and trains regularly. And they have budgets and try to save money when they can while still meeting their mission.
 
2012-08-15 08:51:57 AM  

gilatrout: The fisheries dept at NOAA is made up of 2 branches, the scientists which we all hear about, and the enforcement or police branch which you don't hear about unless you are in a fishing community like Gloucester MA.

They have a police/enforcement branch for the same reason the National Parks Service Rangers have one. They enforce federal law on federal territory, and they have to deal with people who are armed.

Csb time.

The enforcement branch has gotten NMFS in trouble with overreaching their authority and totally farked up any good will and rapport the scientists had with the fishermen.


and don't forget, NOAA is one of this country's "Uniformed Services" after all. I'll admit that I'll start to worry about the Zombie Apocalypse when the US Public Health Service (another Uniformed Service) orders up 100K rounds of 12-gauge #00 buckshot.
 
2012-08-15 08:54:54 AM  

Gyrfalcon: tinfoil-hat maggie: Kittypie070: Would you conspiracy nutters all just go choke to death on a nice can of cream of bullet soup now?

I only believe in real conspiracies, this isn't one.

What IS the conspiracy anyway? Do they think that the NOAA Weather Service is now seeding clouds from the ground? That the Fisheries Dept. is going to be killing random marlin fishermen? Or are they just unaware that the Fisheries guys are worried about running into drug smugglers on the open sea where a badge and a stern warning might not go very far?


They do believe the government and weather agencies are actively involved with weather manipulation, i.e. chemtrails. This ammunition story proved that the government was gearing up for martial law, and a fight with the people as a result of a controlled economic implosion.
 
2012-08-15 08:56:14 AM  

dittybopper: untaken_name: BostonEMT: untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link

yeah, but remember, DHS has what? - 8 or 10 agencies under it, so they could be buying ammo for the whole lot (save for the secret service)... the coast gaurd is one of them too... divide that by how many employees?, how many of which are "officially" armed and need to re-certify every year?, yadda yadda yadda... lobster bisque...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Sec u rity

Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?

You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.

Also, you have to *PRACTICE* to maintain proficiency.


So you're OK with law enforcement using ammunition that is illegal for use by the military worldwide?
 
2012-08-15 09:01:06 AM  

untaken_name: You're off by a factor of 1000. 1,200,000,000 / 200,000 = 6000, not 6. Additionally, I doubt the secretaries and janitors and car pool guys carry guns.


I meant 6k? Yeah. That's it and I don't actualy have poor math skills.
Janitors don't get a gun? Fark that. I'm withdrawing my application as a sanitation technician then.
 
2012-08-15 09:11:10 AM  

SharkTrager: So you're OK with law enforcement using ammunition that is illegal for use by the military worldwide?


YES.

Hollow points are more effective at killing someone, as they cause more trauma. They ONLY reason you should be shooting at someone is if they pose such a risk that you need them dead, and you need them dead NOW. Hollow points help with the NOW part.
The military doesn't use hollow points for two reasons. One...for some odd damn reason, the people who signed the Hauge and Geneva conventions felt FMJ rounds kill more 'humainly'. Personaly I don't see a difference. Dead is dead. But we're supposed to kill each other 'nicely' in war, so we use FMJ rounds.
Reason 2 is because of body armor. HP rounds arn't as effective against body armor as a FMJ is. Especially if it has a steel or tungsten penetrator.
Any troops of suffecent technology would probably be wearing some form of body armor. Of course when you're fighting a bunch of skinnies, FMJ rounds don't work as well, as we found in Mogadishu, when we'd shoot one of them, and they'd keep running.

HP rounds are only illegal for military because of a stupid 'feel-good' law. Cops should absolutely carry HP rounds. And that's the only thing I have in my carry gun.
 
2012-08-15 09:14:30 AM  
The National Weather Service is important for national security. The military and FAA depend on their work. They need to stay in business when the shiat hits the fan. The conspiracy theory is the fish cops needing this ammo.
 
2012-08-15 09:15:09 AM  

CujoQuarrel: Gyrfalcon: BravadoGT: propasaurus: So, back during all the furor in the aftermath of the movie theater shooting, gun rights supporters were telling us that one guy buying 6,000 rounds of ammo is not something that should raise a red flag; it's perfectly reasonable for one person to have that much ammo.
Now, a government agency buying 46,000 rounds of ammo is cause for concern and indicative of some deep dark government conspiracy.
But if 6k rounds is an appropriate amount for one person, maybe the NOAA is just buying ammo for 8 guys. No big deal.

Why does the NOAA need any ammo?

You didn't RTFA didja?

It was really for NOAA's Dept. of Fisheries, which had to deal with drunk fishermen and drug smugglers on the open water without any backup.

But they still wouldn't be allowed hollow points. Since they have been outlawed in combat for over a hundred years I would think that they wouldn't be used by law enforcement either.


Not true, the Hague Convention only outlaws their use for international warfare.
 
2012-08-15 09:19:26 AM  

cman: Well this makes me glad to know that if a foreign enemy decimates the military, obliterates police departments, destroys Homeland Security, massacre the TSA, then we will have the NOAA with their military weapons ready to defend the homeland.


WOLVERINES!!!1!!...see a chance of rain tomorrow, highs in the 80s, lows in the 60s....
 
2012-08-15 09:21:27 AM  

SharkTrager: dittybopper: untaken_name: BostonEMT: untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link

yeah, but remember, DHS has what? - 8 or 10 agencies under it, so they could be buying ammo for the whole lot (save for the secret service)... the coast gaurd is one of them too... divide that by how many employees?, how many of which are "officially" armed and need to re-certify every year?, yadda yadda yadda... lobster bisque...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Sec u rity

Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?

You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.

Also, you have to *PRACTICE* to maintain proficiency.

So you're OK with law enforcement using ammunition that is illegal for use by the military worldwide?


Absolutely, because the Hague convention got it wrong, based upon misinformation about expanding bullets.

Consider this: It's considered bad practice, and in some states it's illegal, to hunt deer with full metal jacket bullets. Why? Because you are more likely to wound, and less likely to kill, the deer. It's considered to be inhumane to use FMJ on game.

Yet when we are talking about warfare, that somehow suddenly flips: It's OK to shoot someone with a bullet that is less likely to kill them as quickly, but not one that is more effective and considered more humane in a sporting context.

WTF?
 
2012-08-15 09:21:58 AM  

MythDragon: SharkTrager: So you're OK with law enforcement using ammunition that is illegal for use by the military worldwide?

YES.

Hollow points are more effective at killing someone, as they cause more trauma. They ONLY reason you should be shooting at someone is if they pose such a risk that you need them dead, and you need them dead NOW. Hollow points help with the NOW part.
The military doesn't use hollow points for two reasons. One...for some odd damn reason, the people who signed the Hauge and Geneva conventions felt FMJ rounds kill more 'humainly'. Personaly I don't see a difference. Dead is dead. But we're supposed to kill each other 'nicely' in war, so we use FMJ rounds.
Reason 2 is because of body armor. HP rounds arn't as effective against body armor as a FMJ is. Especially if it has a steel or tungsten penetrator.
Any troops of suffecent technology would probably be wearing some form of body armor. Of course when you're fighting a bunch of skinnies, FMJ rounds don't work as well, as we found in Mogadishu, when we'd shoot one of them, and they'd keep running.

HP rounds are only illegal for military because of a stupid 'feel-good' law. Cops should absolutely carry HP rounds. And that's the only thing I have in my carry gun.


Hollow points also decrease the chance of collateral damage.There is less chance of going through the target and into other people.
 
2012-08-15 09:30:28 AM  

Captain_Ballbeard: way south: Captain_Ballbeard: dittybopper: You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.

Balderdash.

Ball ammo at the gun range, hollow points on the free range.

Ball because its cheap and many pistols aren't very accurate.
But if we're talking rifles, there can be a distinct performance difference.

Yeah, so train on a comfy range with the most accurate ammo you can find, that will translate into success when under pressure.


Since ball ammo and target ammo is loaded to lower pressures an behaves differently, training with ball is not realistic for law enforcement, because everything from point of impact to recoil profile can vary quite a bit.

For those who are expected to use their weapons to some degree, the differences matter enough that training with your duty ammo is a requirement.

Also, to verify a weapon for function in law enforcement requires at least 1000 rounds. Add to this that as lots of ammo are used up, and new lots are purchased, they may be of different design, so they must be tested for function/reliability and to familiarize the shooter with poi, recoil, etc.

Law enforcement burns through a lot of ammo on training, too.
 
2012-08-15 09:31:17 AM  
the government is sooo trustworthy.......
 
2012-08-15 09:36:53 AM  

BostonEMT: skantea: I love a good conspiracy theory. Don't understand why people get mad about it. It's 99% harmless, and about 20% true...eventually...40 years after everyone who might get hurt by the truth is dead.

I think it all goes to why is the information "classified"? for , why is the gub'mint, who likes to tout just how open they are, classifying things that would otherwise not matter?

case-in-point 1: why has the FBI "classified" (or otherwise ruled out releasing) the 50+ surveillance videos of the plane hitting the pentagon? that makes no sense. So, people "assume" that something is being covered up. I think that natural to a degree, but at the same time, people tend to go WAY too far on these things.

case-in-point 2: Why is our president - who ran on a ticket of openness and transparency spending so much money to hide his school financial records? it makes no sense, so people "assume" there is something to hide.

there are a LOT of questions about a LOT of things. In the end, what can be done about ANY of them?


Wow, you went all truther AND birther on that one. Good job.
 
2012-08-15 09:37:46 AM  
The US military has the authority to indefinitely detain and/or outright assassinate US citizens, even on US soil. The executive has the discretion to strip any citizen of their constitutional rights based on hearsay. The military was granted authority to operate its surveillance drones and blimps over the US. It's an open secret that the US has wire-tapped essentially *everything* that travels through telco switching rooms. Congress retroactively granted immunity to the telcos for their participation in any illegal wiretapping of citizens, past or future. The Patriot Act created "constitution free zones" that give the green light to any violation of the first, second and fourth amendment that anyone might want, with no oversight. These zones cover 80% of the population of the country. The TSA is groping and/or porno-scanning just about every air traveler (with rights to detain and strip-search for no declared reason), with plans to expand to rail and bus travelers, and even drive-by porno-scanning of pedestrians and motorists. The military was granted the legal right to turn their propaganda machine against the US citizenry, via domestic news sources. Our government has not only been exposed as having slipped known-false propaganda to major media organizations (Iraq/WMD), even for political reasons (plame), and leaned on them to suppress inconvenient facts (Iraq/WMD/wikileaks), but has *promised* to create false news stories to make it sound like they're doing a bang-up job busting terrorists, ya know, to keep the terrorists off-guard. The FBI has been handing fake bombs to any angry incompetent they can find, busting them when they so much as put the fake device in their car, and then high-fiving one another for keeping us safe. They may well be (now legally) outright fabricating such stories, without needing so much as an angry anti-social loser for a patsy, because why the fark wouldn't they?

... and Alex Jones has time to worry about 46,000 rounds of ammo???
 
2012-08-15 09:38:57 AM  

dittybopper: Yet when we are talking about warfare, that somehow suddenly flips: It's OK to shoot someone with a bullet that is less likely to kill them as quickly, but not one that is more effective and considered more humane in a sporting context.


It depends on who you ask. Because if a soldier survives the initial hit he probably doesn't want to die to an infection or internal injury caused by a shard of copper that separated from the bullets jacket.
From the doctors perspective it is more efficient to remove a whole bullet than to poke around looking for broken bits of metal, possibly causing more damage.

HP is only to the advantage of the shooter, and personally I think the difference between the two is nominal at best.
If someone is going to chew my ear off about how 9mm doesn't have less stopping power than .45acp, I won't sit back and let them claim that an expanded 9mm is better than 9mm ball.

/....I apologize in advance if this leads to a stopping power thread, but it has to be said.
 
2012-08-15 09:49:20 AM  

dittybopper: untaken_name: dittybopper: Consider this: From a price standpoint, it may actually be cheaper to buy 46,000 rounds of hollowpoint in a single caliber than it is to buy X rounds of ball and Y rounds of hollowpoint which added together total up to 46,000 rounds. You'd get a bigger discount that way.

But if you use hollowpoints at the range you have to repair the range much more often. That would easily outweigh any discount you'd get.

How often do you have to repair a berm?.


It's not the berm. Most outdoor ranges have some kind of wooden structure that you attach your targets to. FMJ makes little round holes while JHP knocks out large chunks. They end up having to constantly rebuild the thing if people shoot at it with hollow points.
 
2012-08-15 09:51:50 AM  

way south: dittybopper: Yet when we are talking about warfare, that somehow suddenly flips: It's OK to shoot someone with a bullet that is less likely to kill them as quickly, but not one that is more effective and considered more humane in a sporting context.

It depends on who you ask. Because if a soldier survives the initial hit he probably doesn't want to die to an infection or internal injury caused by a shard of copper that separated from the bullets jacket.
From the doctors perspective it is more efficient to remove a whole bullet than to poke around looking for broken bits of metal, possibly causing more damage.

HP is only to the advantage of the shooter, and personally I think the difference between the two is nominal at best.
If someone is going to chew my ear off about how 9mm doesn't have less stopping power than .45acp, I won't sit back and let them claim that an expanded 9mm is better than 9mm ball.

/....I apologize in advance if this leads to a stopping power thread, but it has to be said.


The problem is that you can design FMJ rounds to do just that, fragment, and that's what we've been doing for the last 40 years or so, so it's a meaningless distinction at this point.
 
2012-08-15 10:13:52 AM  

dittybopper: Absolutely, because the Hague convention got it wrong, based upon misinformation about expanding bullets.

Consider this: It's considered bad practice, and in some states it's illegal, to hunt deer with full metal jacket bullets. Why? Because you are more likely to wound, and less likely to kill, the deer. It's considered to be inhumane to use FMJ on game.

Yet when we are talking about warfare, that somehow suddenly flips: It's OK to shoot someone with a bullet that is less likely to kill them as quickly, but not one that is more effective and considered more humane in a sporting context.

WTF?


Good points. However, the plus points of having injured enemy soldiers on the battlefield as opposed to dead ones is that the injured one will take at least one other soldier out of the fight to administer aid, and possibly a further 4 to transport out. Added to that the effect on morale of a screaming colleague, the drain on resources etc. and I can see why military commanders might prefer FMJs.

That of course doesn't answer why the authors of the Hague Convention made the choices they did. Could it be an odd way of trying to make war less deadly? You remove opposition just as effectively, but they don't die nearly as much so you can feel better about being at war? Who knows.
 
2012-08-15 10:16:21 AM  
Could have been worse. 46,000 rounds of armor piercing AK47 ammo.
 
2012-08-15 10:18:45 AM  

untaken_name: No one has yet said anything which overcomes these objections in explaining why DHS would need to target shoot with hollowpoints. No one has even explained why it's ok for the DHS to USE hollowpoints when they violate the Hague Convention*.


Doesn't the CIA/FBI fall under the DHS now? That's a pretty big nation-wide police force that would tend to go through lots of ammo. They also are likely to be selling/giving that ammo to other countries for their internal protection duties.
 
2012-08-15 10:18:51 AM  
My lines from yesterday about this -

"When lightning strkes, the National Weather Service strikes back!"
"Hail of hail, meet hail of bullets!"
 
2012-08-15 10:25:13 AM  

o5iiawah


But is it that AK-47 Glock assault ammo that we've been hearing about lately?


Yeah, it's the cop-piercing armor-killing ammo loaded into bananarama magaclips.
 
2012-08-15 10:34:03 AM  

untaken_name: Have you ever seen what hollowpoints do to target ranges? The difference to the shooter is minimal, as I know from firsthand experience, but the difference to the target is major. That is the whole reason that every pistol range I've ever been a member of forbids the use of hollowpoints and requires the use of FMJ for practice.


As a firearms instructor... WTF are you talking about? Most ranges that "ban" JHP ammunition do so because they require you to purchase range ammo, and they only sell the cheap FMJ they got in bulk.. not because JHP are super explosion range destroying ammunition. I shoot JHP during IDPA all the time. It doesn't do anything different to steel plate or backstops.
 
2012-08-15 10:50:16 AM  
Hollow points for target practice. Not being a gun guy, I wonder if there wasn't a less scary round for hitting inanimate objects.

/Before I read the article I assumed they were the much-touted "drought-killers" we read so much about.
 
2012-08-15 11:01:44 AM  

dittybopper: way south: dittybopper: Yet when we are talking about warfare, that somehow suddenly flips: It's OK to shoot someone with a bullet that is less likely to kill them as quickly, but not one that is more effective and considered more humane in a sporting context.

It depends on who you ask. Because if a soldier survives the initial hit he probably doesn't want to die to an infection or internal injury caused by a shard of copper that separated from the bullets jacket.
From the doctors perspective it is more efficient to remove a whole bullet than to poke around looking for broken bits of metal, possibly causing more damage.

HP is only to the advantage of the shooter, and personally I think the difference between the two is nominal at best.
If someone is going to chew my ear off about how 9mm doesn't have less stopping power than .45acp, I won't sit back and let them claim that an expanded 9mm is better than 9mm ball.

/....I apologize in advance if this leads to a stopping power thread, but it has to be said.

The problem is that you can design FMJ rounds to do just that, fragment, and that's what we've been doing for the last 40 years or so, so it's a meaningless distinction at this point.


dl.dropbox.com

dl.dropbox.com

dl.dropbox.com

It can still be meaningful because even deforming types of full Jacket are not not meant to flail open. Which will slightly broaden the bullet surface but not as wide, and its still not meant to increase the amount of fragmentation (altho the details of that may be debatable).
Its not clear if this is better than trading up to a larger bullet size if you don't get that flower of sharp metal and debris spreading into the wound and cutting vital things.

Its the shrapnel that turns a normal bullet wound into a "FARK YOU!" kind of bullet wound.
 
2012-08-15 11:18:50 AM  
Why does the NWS need ammo? I mean I'm not wanting to jump aboard the Alex jones train, but can someone seriously answer me what they do that they would need it for, I mean its not like you are gonna shoot a tornado with your glock or something.
 
2012-08-15 11:19:52 AM  

way south: It can still be meaningful because even deforming types of full Jacket are not not meant to flail open. Which will slightly broaden the bullet surface but not as wide, and its still not meant to increase the amount of fragmentation (altho the details of that may be debatable).
Its not clear if this is better than trading up to a larger bullet size if you don't get that flower of sharp metal and debris spreading into the wound and cutting vital things.

Its the shrapnel that turns a normal bullet wound into a "FARK YOU!" kind of bullet wound.


Back when I hunted deer with a modern rifle, I switched bullets from 150 grain Winchester SilverTits to 165 grain Sierra GameKings. The reason was because the Winchester bullets kept "blowing up", ie., significantly fragmenting on impact. This is a problem when using a .30'06 at relatively close ranges, and on less than optimal shots, it had the effect of destroying a *LOT* of good meat. The GameKings didn't do that, though: They expanded well and generally exited whole, and I never saw evidence that they blew apart like the 150 grain bullets, even at short range. Part is probably due to construction, and part to the slower velocity of the heavier bullet.

/I just use the flintlock now.
//A .535" 230 grain lead ball on a greased linen patch.
 
2012-08-15 11:30:20 AM  

Oldiron_79: Why does the NWS need ammo? I mean I'm not wanting to jump aboard the Alex jones train, but can someone seriously answer me what they do that they would need it for, I mean its not like you are gonna shoot a tornado with your glock or something.


It isn't the National Weather Service purchasing the ammo, it is it's parent agency, NOAA, purchasing it for the Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement (da fish cops). It was a clerical error on the form that implied it was for the NWS, while explicitly stating that it was to be delivered to da fish cops.
 
2012-08-15 11:33:27 AM  
Looks like NOAA is going to deal with the denier problem the old fashioned way.

/been waiting for this
 
2012-08-15 11:38:59 AM  

untaken_name: BostonEMT: untaken_name: Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?

I agree that they need to clarify what the rounds will be used for - but I'm not too scared just yet. You act as if they're going to line up all the willing americans and off'em. If you're implying that thats a LOT of ammo - which in the civilian sense, it is - but in a "military sense", it isn't.

If you're going to go down "that path" and fear that DHS is going to over-run the civilian population, i encourage you to look at the ratios of rounds per kill in the last few wars. In Vietnam, it was 200,000 rounds of ammo per enemy combatant killed. so 1.6 billion rounds pencils out to 8,000 deaths (in a military combat situation). and thats assuming no rounds are used for practice or qualifying....

/maybe they need to start taking some notes on chicago/L.A./NYC gang bangers.

1. the DHS isn't a military force
2. Any fighting in urban areas will be completely different from the jungle environment of vietnam
3. DHS has been training its people for years without making such large ammo and riot gear purchases
4. why the sudden need to train with hollowpoint when they haven't been in the past?


12/12/12 is fast approaching.

ARE YOU READY!
 
2012-08-15 11:39:03 AM  

jaybeezey: I think the real question here is, "Who knew that the NOAA had a armed tean to handle the dangers of fisheries and where is their reality TV show?"


Fisheries enforcement can be exceptionally dangerous. A lot of fishermen aren't quite all there in the head. Once had a captain charge at us with a sledgehammer because we were going to cite him for failing to have a working toilet on his boat. Crew was shiatting in a bucket in the shower and they'd dump it over the side when it was full. Of course, he had a lot of other citations, too, but that was the one that pissed him off the most.

On topic, most of the NMFS guys I met were pretty cool characters.

/ex-Coastie
//he went to jail, fishing boat got towed back to port
 
2012-08-15 11:43:19 AM  

The Envoy: dittybopper: Absolutely, because the Hague convention got it wrong, based upon misinformation about expanding bullets.

Consider this: It's considered bad practice, and in some states it's illegal, to hunt deer with full metal jacket bullets. Why? Because you are more likely to wound, and less likely to kill, the deer. It's considered to be inhumane to use FMJ on game.

Yet when we are talking about warfare, that somehow suddenly flips: It's OK to shoot someone with a bullet that is less likely to kill them as quickly, but not one that is more effective and considered more humane in a sporting context.

WTF?

Good points. However, the plus points of having injured enemy soldiers on the battlefield as opposed to dead ones is that the injured one will take at least one other soldier out of the fight to administer aid, and possibly a further 4 to transport out. Added to that the effect on morale of a screaming colleague, the drain on resources etc. and I can see why military commanders might prefer FMJs.

That of course doesn't answer why the authors of the Hague Convention made the choices they did. Could it be an odd way of trying to make war less deadly? You remove opposition just as effectively, but they don't die nearly as much so you can feel better about being at war? Who knows.


This. My drill sergeant answered this question for one of the other idiots in my platoon (after the obligatory 20 pushups for everyone). He was actually a very educated man, and for about an hour he explained a lot of why we carried what we carried and shot what we shot. He cited (and I can't seem to find anything pertinent in the time I have now) a post-action summary of action in Guadalcanal that found that every wounded man required up to 12 other men to evacuate and treat him.
Logistics is what wins wars. Everything from beans and bullets to boots and grunts. Numbers win. Yeah, SF guys make it look sexy, but in the end numbers persevere. Buying ammo in bulk is cheaper. And police aren't restricted by the Hague convention. They have a different mission altogether. Instead of wounding a guy and making the other side deal with him, they need their weapons to stop the assailant NOW. And they don't have a massive supply train to support them if they run low. They usually only have what's on their belt with maybe a small stash in their vehicle, which may or may not be a distance away from them. A beat officer can't radio in for a chopper to drop in a fresh box or two if he gets in a jam.

A local police agency uses the range at the club I belong to. They are restricted to lead or plated ammo there, and supplement using their carry ammo at a (much more) expensive range for certain reasons. First off, no matter what ammunition you're using, nothing beats throwing lead downrange in order to know your weapon. Second, it's a small department, and like everything else, disposables (toilet paper, office supplies, etc,) comes from the lowest bidder, so they may suddenly find themselves using a different brand of ammunition depending on what they buyers got. Third, if everything goes really, really, wrong and they have to make do with whatever they can get their hands on, it helps for them to be flexible enough to use it effectively.
 
2012-08-15 11:44:33 AM  

dittybopper: Part is probably due to construction, and part to the slower velocity of the heavier bullet.


I havn't had much experience hunting, so I can't speak from personal experience.
I have read that higher velocity rounds have a bad habit of wanting to boat tail and flip when they hit flesh, and the shock of all that force can outright destroy the bullet.

It may be a loophole in the Hague when a properly made Assault rifles FMJ round "just happens" to explode because it was traveling at twice the normal speed of a WW2 rifle round.

dittybopper: /I just use the flintlock now.
//A .535" 230 grain lead ball on a greased linen patch.


The old ways are the best.

/If I ever did have to put meat on the table I'd probably use my Mosin.
/Not many deer down in the islands, so people just leave them alone.
 
2012-08-15 11:45:29 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: So the hollow-points will be used to protect fish and not weather vanes. I'm so relieved!


NOAA Fisheries Enforcement Officers must often board vessels and this can be dangerous. They are trained the same way an FBI or ATF agent is trained.
 
2012-08-15 12:12:40 PM  

BostonEMT: untaken_name: So our military can't use hollowpoint rounds but it's okay for the DHS to?

THAT is an good and interesting point...


DHS isnt limited by things like the Geneva Convention and other articles that dictate international rules of war, which outlaw hollowpoint ammo, among other things.
 
2012-08-15 12:25:07 PM  

Fluorescent Testicle: [cdn2-b.examiner.com image 600x330]


This is why they need ammo

Citizens getting tired of the same ol same ol
 
2012-08-15 12:53:19 PM  
Ummm, Burbank, we have a problem....
 
2012-08-15 01:03:15 PM  
Everybody talks about the weather but a few brave men and women at the National Weather Service have decided to do something about it.

12 Men and Women. 46,000 rounds of hollow tip bullets.

Extreme weather won't know what hit it.

Coming to theatres on Friday, August 24.
 
2012-08-15 01:11:11 PM  
The National Weather Service. Your 27th line of defence after the League of Women Voters (24), the Girl Scouts(25), and Mrs. Melba F. Feldspar, the Swamp Witch of Back Bacon Bayou, Louisiana (26).

Simpsons did it. That's where web jokers steal half their material, knowing that web hipsters and trolls don't watch the Simpsons since season 3, 5 or maybe even 1. It's always save to steal material from a show that is ranked between 21 and 200. Hipsters only watch shows ranked below 200 and trolls only watch shows ranked above 20.
 
2012-08-15 01:11:15 PM  

propasaurus: So, back during all the furor in the aftermath of the movie theater shooting, gun rights supporters were telling us that one guy buying 6,000 rounds of ammo is not something that should raise a red flag; it's perfectly reasonable for one person to have that much ammo.
Now, a government agency buying 46,000 rounds of ammo is cause for concern and indicative of some deep dark government conspiracy.
But if 6k rounds is an appropriate amount for one person, maybe the NOAA is just buying ammo for 8 guys. No big deal.


Just for informational purposes.

A group spends an afternoon at the range shooting the shiat out of cans or targets, that can be a few hundred rounds very very easily, more if it's a gathering of several gun nuts because everyone wants to try the other guy's gun for compatibility testing. Size, weight, kick, recoil, sight packages, etc.(feel free to insert your gay jokes here).

So, no, 6,000 rounds is not insane, just efficient. Bulk deals and less frequent buying, money is saved(if you've got that kind of money to begin with, may as well cut corners when feasible. Also, people with the same ammo needs can split up a large order, everyone wins.

Some people like to do this every weekend or once a month. That's a lot of rounds, yes, but they do get used. It's a hobby, no different than someone buying gas for their cars for the monthly weekend road trip to the beach or paying X$ to play online games with monthly fees, or car parts for their restoration project.

Anti-gun people like to try to imply that the gun owner is sitting in his basement hand engraving anti-government slogans on each and every shell and then setting up some sort of shrine with the presidents eyes scratched out with a pen knife when they spit out that 6,000 is a lot of ammo for one guy to be buying.
 
2012-08-15 01:16:54 PM  

BostonEMT: Big Dave: Headline: Conspiracy theorists

BostonEMT: skantea: I love a good conspiracy theory.
50+ surveillance videos of the plane hitting the pentagon
our president - who ran on a ticket of openness and transparency spending so much money to hide his school financial records?

Is this a joke?

no - they are questions whose answers are classified, no *apparently* good reason.

/please feel free to give us the answers.


How about this: Get out of Moms basement, put away tinfoil hat, and if you ever spout 9/11 conspiracy crap to me in person, I will gladly take possession of your balls, and you won't be getting them back.
 
2012-08-15 01:19:13 PM  
Channel Six would like to remind terrorists and our loyal viewers that the weather girl does not create the weather, she merely reports it. We are sorry if the weather has spoiled your plans but we are not responsible for its failure to conform with our predictions or guesses.

The National Weather Service actually creates the weather, we just pass it on to you from the national news feeds.

WARNING: National Weather Servicemen and women are heavily armed in preparation for attacks by TV weather audiences and are believed by Jane's Book of Federal Agencies to be capable of holding out against a seige by the Four H Clubs of Iowa for as long as three days.

Hey, they're not the Post Office, but they are a bunch of patriotic loonies with guns, just like you.
 
2012-08-15 01:38:20 PM  

way south:
I have read that higher velocity rounds have a bad habit of wanting to boat tail and flip when they hit flesh, and the shock of all that force can outright destroy the bullet.


Bad habit? Heck, yaw and tumble are designed into modern bullets. So is fragmentation. That's why a 5.56 out of an AR is a better choice for home defense than a 230gr FMJ out of a 1911.
 
2012-08-15 02:11:22 PM  
Big deal. Like other farkers said, I know people who go through a few hundred rounds in an afternoon training session, never mind the folks with class-III guns. So they buy 1-2K at a time for a better price.

/convert your full auto to 22LR for bargain shooting.
 
2012-08-15 02:15:20 PM  

OriginalGamer: BostonEMT:

no - they are questions whose answers are classified, no *apparently* good reason.

/please feel free to give us the answers.

How about this: Get out of Moms basement, put away tinfoil hat, and if you ever spout 9/11 conspiracy crap to me in person, I will gladly take possession of your balls, and you won't be getting them back.


ah - the good 'ol internet tough girl... instead of actually answering a question - ones that i'm sure have very simple answers - you make threats and insults. very mature. Just admit you don't know or don't care. and if you DO know, feel free to post the answers and links to documentation here, or just continue covering up your insecurities with insults.

/I'm guessing you have psychological issues with admitting that you don't know something.
 
2012-08-15 02:19:24 PM  
Phase 1 of NOAA's master plan is complete.

Phase 2?

cdn.ksk.uproxx.com
 
2012-08-15 02:23:46 PM  

BostonEMT: /I wonder what would happen if Joe-Schmo tried to order 46,000 round of FMJs.


Joe would proably have them delivered. 46,000 PRVI brand 40S&W JHP would be $13,257.20 plus shipping from "Cheaper than Dirt" of Fort Worth, Texas. As government contracts go, this is pretty small beans.

NOAA's Office of Law Enforcement has 135 officers. That's 340 rounds per officer. Let's say they carry Glock 22's (I have no idea what they carry, but glocks are popular with law enforcement) with 4 magazines each that's 60 per officer just for carry, leaving 280 left over for practice, spares against loss or damage, etc. So if they wanted to practice every other month, say, that would allow 46.6 rounds per practice session, or three full magazines, for the year.

Not that they would be doing much practicing, as they only ordered 500 targets, total. If enough officers flake on training, you get to shoot up a whole target every three months!
 
2012-08-15 02:25:11 PM  

BostonEMT: nytmare: BostonEMT: Big Dave: Headline: Conspiracy theorists

BostonEMT: skantea: I love a good conspiracy theory.
50+ surveillance videos of the plane hitting the pentagon
our president - who ran on a ticket of openness and transparency spending so much money to hide his school financial records?

Is this a joke?

no - they are questions whose answers are classified, no *apparently* good reason.

/please feel free to give us the answers.

So how much does it cost to "hide" your own school records?

You can use google just as easily as I can - and if your plan is to answer a question WITH a question, you're only ADDING to the conspiracy theory.


School records are private information not available to unauthorized third parties. Claiming that the President of the United States incurred any expense to "hide" records that are not legally available to the public demonstrates the claimant to be either ignorant or dishonest. As such, any individual who claims that the President of the United States has spent "millions" of dollars to "hide" his school financial records or any other private records related to his schooling either has not actually studied the subject that they are discussing, and thus is uninterested in being educated regarding the facts, or is willfully lying, and thus is uninterested in being educated regarding the facts.
 
2012-08-15 02:26:43 PM  

dittybopper: Back when I hunted deer with a modern rifle, I switched bullets from 150 grain Winchester SilverTits to 165 grain Sierra GameKings. The reason was because the Winchester bullets kept "blowing up", ie., significantly fragmenting on impact.


Well, there's your problem...
 
2012-08-15 02:33:21 PM  

BostonEMT: OriginalGamer: BostonEMT:

no - they are questions whose answers are classified, no *apparently* good reason.

/please feel free to give us the answers.

How about this: Get out of Moms basement, put away tinfoil hat, and if you ever spout 9/11 conspiracy crap to me in person, I will gladly take possession of your balls, and you won't be getting them back.

ah - the good 'ol internet tough girl... instead of actually answering a question - ones that i'm sure have very simple answers - you make threats and insults. very mature. Just admit you don't know or don't care. and if you DO know, feel free to post the answers and links to documentation here, or just continue covering up your insecurities with insults.

/I'm guessing you have psychological issues with admitting that you don't know something.


Wait, a 9/11 conspiracist is claiming I'm the one with psychological issues admitting lack of knowledge?

That's rich.

To answer your question, there is FAR more than enough released footage, eye witness accounts, and physical evidence to corroborate what happened at the Pentagon on 9/11.

You will now disregard this, and/or move the goal posts.
 
2012-08-15 02:55:07 PM  
This thread is a kook magnet.
 
2012-08-15 03:01:38 PM  
Hey, you got birthers on my gun nut thread!

/Reese's Fark.com
 
2012-08-15 04:50:05 PM  

gameshowhost: This thread is a kook magnet.


What threads on Fark are not any more?

About the only threads you don't get a blame Obama or Bush nutbag in are Boobies and Geek / Entertainment threads. Hopefully it will get better after the election.
/doubt it
 
2012-08-15 06:17:32 PM  
ourbigdumbmouth:
There has been an awful lot of ammo orders recently. DHS, now this.

I just wonder how this compares to previous years.

Maybe they're just stockpiling like the tea party are.

Yeah, and the Social Security Administration, too... Article HERE.

I recall when GWB was going to be leaving office, and the tin-foil hat crowd was saying that he would declare martial law, suspend elections, and God knows what all. I haven't heard the same about Obama yet... I wonder why?

And HOLLOWPOINT ammo? Cripes, that's for making sure you get a kill, rather than wounding the target. WTF is up with this?
 
2012-08-15 08:31:02 PM  

Confabulat: If you ever listen to Alex Jones (everyone should sometimes, not too often, just to remind us how crazy our fellow Americans are), the common psychological refrain is OMG YOU HAVE WOKEN ME UP TO THE TRUTH I AM GOING TO MAKE ALL MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY SEE THIS THANK YOU FOR OPENING UP MY EYES.

This is 90% of the thinking of an Alex Jones listener. Then they go back to their engineering and banking jobs and look just like the rest of us while these nutty thoughts keep rattling around their brains. omg conspiracy


That should be a domain thingee. piss a lot of people off.

conspiracy.omg
gunnuts.omg
Just think of the mirth.
 
2012-08-15 08:51:11 PM  

GeneralJim: And HOLLOWPOINT ammo? Cripes, that's for making sure you get a kill, rather than wounding the target. WTF is up with this?


It's not for target practice, that's for sure. And the DHS ordered almost a billion rounds.
 
2012-08-15 10:19:55 PM  
Mehh, back in the 70's they printed gas rationing coupon books and never used them.
Zombie Killer bullets?
Considering the level of fearmongering these days, not out of line.
 
2012-08-15 11:35:31 PM  

david_gaithersburg: Progressive Democrats tend to by their guns from the trunks of cars and shoot their own children while doing drive by shootings and holding up 7-11s. These creatures are highly respected in your bizarro world.



Yes nothing says respected in progressive circles like a gang member.

I'm sure all the gang members vote for Democrats, especially since it's been progressives who want to decriminalize drugs. I bet that would be great for their bottom line

/all criminals vote Republican, it keeps the money flowing in because they know their activities will keep staying illegal
 
2012-08-15 11:41:44 PM  

GeneralJim: Yeah, and the Social Security Administration, too... Article HERE.

I recall when GWB was going to be leaving office, and the tin-foil hat crowd was saying that he would declare martial law, suspend elections, and God knows what all. I haven't heard the same about Obama yet... I wonder why?

And HOLLOWPOINT ammo? Cripes, that's for making sure you get a kill, rather than wounding the target. WTF is up with this?



You should quote infowars for your climate change debates as well.
 
2012-08-16 12:11:30 AM  

dittybopper: Also, while I don't really have that much experience in indoor pistol range maintenance


Well, there's your problem. Might want to take care of that before you speak out about the subject.
 
2012-08-16 12:14:21 AM  

Hacker_X: Total Federal government, no. Armed federal government member operating domestically? That is a different matter. Other the different divisions of DHS you have The FBI and US Marshals. Those are the two major ones for the feds. Most other stuff either is covered by DHS, doesn't operate inside the US (or isn't supposed to at least), or is a military branch.


Well, the NEA is issuing carry pistols now, so I dunno about that.
 
2012-08-16 12:17:21 AM  

omeganuepsilon: Anti-gun people like to try to imply that the gun owner is sitting in his basement hand engraving anti-government slogans on each and every shell and then setting up some sort of shrine with the presidents eyes scratched out with a pen knife when they spit out that 6,000 is a lot of ammo for one guy to be buying.


Right? It's so much cheaper to have the anti-government slogans pre-engraved onto the bullets before you buy them. Much more efficient.
 
2012-08-16 01:25:47 AM  

untaken_name: So our military can't use hollowpoint rounds but it's okay for the DHS to?


The US Military doesn't get to use hollow-point bullets because the Hague Convention of 1899 prohibits the use of ammunition explicitly designed to increase injury to a soldier during times of war--basically it's the same general basis why the use of poison gas in warfare is illegal. If you want to read the specific reg, it's here and is in part based on the Declaration of St. Petersburg in 1868 to establish basic laws of war.

Since we are a signatory to the Hague Convention of 1899 (and its successor documents including the Geneva Protocol to the Hague Convention), and since (per the Constitution) international treaties are the law of the land once ratified by Congress...no hollow-points for the Armed Forces, sorry, you cannot has unless you want the US to be charged with violations of human rights and the laws of war.

(Yes, as odd as a concept as it sounds, there are actually series of conventions that establish basic rules for legal acts in warfare; this is partly because in the Civil War and in European wars there WERE expanding-point bullets (that would take off someone's leg) and poison gas use which were seen as sufficiently horrific that their use in war was considered unnecessarily cruel. Yes, I know, this is a head-desker seeing as war is pretty much expressly designed to kill the shiat out of the other side until they roll over and cry uncle, but there you go; people HAVE tried to make laws of civility towards what may be seen as the ultimate in uncivil acts.)

As amazing as it sounds, no similar laws are in place prohibiting law enforcement from using hollow-points (in fact, they're preferred for the same reason some places including the UK mandate their use in deer hunting; hollow-points drop a target quicker). If you find this problematic, you may wish to have a friendly chat with your Congresscritter as to why law enforcement aren't subject to the same "rules of war" that soldiers are. :D (DIfficulty: At least some folks may throw up the Posse Comitatus Act as a counter-argument, and the friendly chat's success will depend on your Congresscritter's particular view of the Second Amendment and whether bans on any type of ammo for civilians are constitutional.)

Failing this, try proposing an international treaty prohibiting the manufacture or sale of hollow-point ammo (good luck with this one, especially since some countries mandate it for large game) or abolishing the Hague Conventions in regards to weapons of warfare (GOOD FARKING LUCK with this one, seeing as much of the legal basis for World War I was in fact Germany's blatant violations of the Hague Conventions and much of the legal theory for disarmament in general is ALSO based on the Conventions...including those international treaties that prohibit George American from having his own personal nuclear missile for home defense; you get rid of Hague, you also pretty much do away with the Geneva Conventions of 1924 which ban chemical and biological warfare).
 
2012-08-16 03:11:18 AM  

Great Porn Dragon: The US Military doesn't get to use hollow-point bullets because the Hague Convention of 1899 prohibits the use of ammunition explicitly designed to increase injury to a soldier during times of war--basically it's the same general basis why the use of poison gas in warfare is illegal. If you want to read the specific reg, it's here and is in part based on the Declaration of St. Petersburg in 1868 to establish basic laws of war.


I know. Please note that I'm the one who made reference to the Hague Convention, and that I noted in that post that I am aware of the scope and that it does not apply to internal police matters. It would stand to reason that I know what the Hague Convention is.

Great Porn Dragon: As amazing as it sounds, no similar laws are in place prohibiting law enforcement from using hollow-points (in fact, they're preferred for the same reason some places including the UK mandate their use in deer hunting; hollow-points drop a target quicker). If you find this problematic, you may wish to have a friendly chat with your Congresscritter as to why law enforcement aren't subject to the same "rules of war" that soldiers are. :D (DIfficulty: At least some folks may throw up the Posse Comitatus Act as a counter-argument, and the friendly chat's success will depend on your Congresscritter's particular view of the Second Amendment and whether bans on any type of ammo for civilians are constitutional.)


I would have far more important things in that area to discuss with them (not the least of which is the blatant violations of the Possee Comitatus Act involving drones and the use of military personnel as LEOs domestically.)

Great Porn Dragon: Failing this, try proposing an international treaty prohibiting the manufacture or sale of hollow-point ammo (good luck with this one, especially since some countries mandate it for large game) or abolishing the Hague Conventions in regards to weapons of warfare (GOOD FARKING LUCK with this one, seeing as much of the legal basis for World War I was in fact Germany's blatant violations of the Hague Conventions and much of the legal theory for disarmament in general is ALSO based on the Conventions...including those international treaties that prohibit George American from having his own personal nuclear missile for home defense; you get rid of Hague, you also pretty much do away with the Geneva Conventions of 1924 which ban chemical and biological warfare).


What, from my post, gave you any inkling that I am against the existence of hollowpoint bullets or am an advocate for government intervention? Neither of those things is remotely true. I am also not against the existence or use of cocaine or alcohol, but I AM against their use by LEOs while on duty. Perhaps this will clarify my position a bit.
 
2012-08-16 03:13:19 AM  

untaken_name: Hacker_X: Total Federal government, no. Armed federal government member operating domestically? That is a different matter. Other the different divisions of DHS you have The FBI and US Marshals. Those are the two major ones for the feds. Most other stuff either is covered by DHS, doesn't operate inside the US (or isn't supposed to at least), or is a military branch.

Well, the NEA is issuing carry pistols now, so I dunno about that.


The National Endowment for the Arts? Are hecklers really that much of a problem?
 
2012-08-16 07:50:18 AM  

Hacker_X: untaken_name: Hacker_X: Total Federal government, no. Armed federal government member operating domestically? That is a different matter. Other the different divisions of DHS you have The FBI and US Marshals. Those are the two major ones for the feds. Most other stuff either is covered by DHS, doesn't operate inside the US (or isn't supposed to at least), or is a military branch.

Well, the NEA is issuing carry pistols now, so I dunno about that.

The National Endowment for the Arts? Are hecklers really that much of a problem?


I guess so. People who work for them can carry concealed weapons on planes, provided they're government-issue. Also, the ED, the DOE, and a bunch of other federal agencies you'd think wouldn't have any need to issue weapons.
 
2012-08-16 08:10:18 AM  

way south: It may be a loophole in the Hague when a properly made Assault rifles FMJ round "just happens" to explode because it was traveling at twice the normal speed of a WW2 rifle round.


They don't do that. A .30'06 with a 150 grain bullet has a velocity of around 2,800 fps to 2,900 fps. The velocity of the current NATO 5.56mm round? About 3,100 fps, or roughly 200 to 300 fps faster, not really a significant difference.
 
2012-08-16 08:14:24 AM  

way south: The old ways are the best.

/If I ever did have to put meat on the table I'd probably use my Mosin.


If I had to do it to survive? I'd probably use a deer snare. Fair chase goes out the window when your life is on the line.
 
2012-08-16 11:57:08 AM  

dittybopper: way south: The old ways are the best.

/If I ever did have to put meat on the table I'd probably use my Mosin.

If I had to do it to survive? I'd probably use a deer snare. Fair chase goes out the window when your life is on the line.


Do you have plans for a Congresscritter snare?
 
2012-08-16 07:10:56 PM  

GeneralJim: intelligent comment below: You should quote infowars for your climate change debates as well.
The problem is that airheads like yourself believe that if it doesn't appear in left-leaning media, it didn't happen. As an example, the LBGT activist who shot up the Washington headquarters of the Family Research Council. Very little coverage of THAT particular hate crime. So, yeah, you go ahead and pretend you're informed by DNC talking points...

[i48.tinypic.com image 576x445]


Um, I saw lots of coverage of that. It was on ABC, CBS, and NBC. Three major TV networks covering it at once. How does that equate to very little coverage?
 
2012-08-16 07:49:44 PM  

Hacker_X: GeneralJim: intelligent comment below: You should quote infowars for your climate change debates as well.
The problem is that airheads like yourself believe that if it doesn't appear in left-leaning media, it didn't happen. As an example, the LBGT activist who shot up the Washington headquarters of the Family Research Council. Very little coverage of THAT particular hate crime. So, yeah, you go ahead and pretend you're informed by DNC talking points...

[i48.tinypic.com image 576x445]

Um, I saw lots of coverage of that. It was on ABC, CBS, and NBC. Three major TV networks covering it at once. How does that equate to very little coverage?



But that's just what they want you to think, it's all part of the conspiracy. Trust him, he knows what he's talking about, especially when he tells you global warming is another liberal conspiracy.
 
2012-08-17 11:48:38 AM  
Did they order garlic too?
 
2012-08-17 08:57:37 PM  
intelligent comment below:
Hacker_X: GeneralJim: intelligent comment below: You should quote infowars for your climate change debates as well.
The problem is that airheads like yourself believe that if it doesn't appear in left-leaning media, it didn't happen. As an example, the LBGT activist who shot up the Washington headquarters of the Family Research Council. Very little coverage of THAT particular hate crime. So, yeah, you go ahead and pretend you're informed by DNC talking points...

[i48.tinypic.com image 576x445]

Um, I saw lots of coverage of that. It was on ABC, CBS, and NBC. Three major TV networks covering it at once. How does that equate to very little coverage?

Really? You saw discussions of the shooter's LGBT connections, and the significance of the Chick-fil-A bag? Did they discuss it as a hate crime? Did they track down all of the shooters political connections? No.
 
2012-08-18 12:43:09 PM  
Mebee, like that chemtrail thingie you fix w/ vinegar, shooting hollowpoints into that villian CO2 in the air will reverse Global Warming.
Get on it.
 
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