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(Washington Post)   Conspiracy theorists freak out over National Weather Service order for 46,000 rounds of hollowpoint ammo   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 187
    More: Stupid, National Weather Service, National Marine Fisheries Service, conspiracy theorists, ammunition, semiautomatic pistols  
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14664 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Aug 2012 at 6:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-15 08:17:43 AM

gilatrout: The enforcement branch has gotten NMFS in trouble with overreaching their authority and totally farked up any good will and rapport the scientists had with the fishermen.


Go figure. Goons and pigs are never good ambassadors.
 
2012-08-15 08:23:40 AM

dittybopper: Katolu: Want to have some fun? Go to the site Abovetopsecret.com and have a look around.

/was a member for a while but kept getting threatened because I dared try to debunk a stupid "conspiracy". Glad I escaped.

Every so often, when I have the time, I'll listen to Alex Jones on shortwave. It's actually kind of funny.


Alex Jones serves his purpose. When people start looking at the Grassy Knoll, he starts screaming about Elvis being spotted nearby in a UFO. Perps whistle and walk away.

If you listen to SW you know what S/N is. Alex's job is to be the N.

"Missiles on 9/11 planes, thermite, Elvis, fake OBL. Cui Bono? What does that mean?", asks Alex Jones, Mike Ruppert et al.
 
2012-08-15 08:26:54 AM

untaken_name: Hacker_X: If you think 1.2 billion rounds is that much pistol ammo for something like 1/3 to 1/2 of the government then you really don't want to think about how many rounds of .223 they use just practicing with M16s on burst fire.

DHS isn't 1/3 of the government. Have you ever seen what hollowpoints do to target ranges? The difference to the shooter is minimal, as I know from firsthand experience, but the difference to the target is major. That is the whole reason that every pistol range I've ever been a member of forbids the use of hollowpoints and requires the use of FMJ for practice. No one has yet said anything which overcomes these objections in explaining why DHS would need to target shoot with hollowpoints. No one has even explained why it's ok for the DHS to USE hollowpoints when they violate the Hague Convention*.

/*Yes I understand that the Hague Convention applies specifically to international warfare, but what I'm really looking for is an explanation for why our purpose-built killers can't use hollowpoints because they're so bad and mean but our "protection" agency has no problem with it.


Total Federal government, no. Armed federal government member operating domestically? That is a different matter. Other the different divisions of DHS you have The FBI and US Marshals. Those are the two major ones for the feds. Most other stuff either is covered by DHS, doesn't operate inside the US (or isn't supposed to at least), or is a military branch.

Sure, you do have an armed division of The USPS and I think some park rangers are armed but their main concern is stuff like poachers and bears and the total number of armed officers from both of those isn't going to be that big of a number.

Hollow points may require more maintenance at indoor ranges but hey, it is just tax payer money so so what? On top of that despite what most movies would have you believe an enormous number of training ranges are outdoor rather than indoor. Dirt and sand backstops really don't care what kind of ammo you are using and "repairs" are quick and cheap.

Officers train and qualify with their service guns and ammo. It is just that simple.

And the Hague convention ignores one EXTREMELY important factor that nobody really cares about on a battlefield (at least when it was written). A hollow point round with either not exit the body or lose most of its energy on the way through and not pose a lethal risk to those behind the target unless they are very close. A FMJ round will just go right on through and is still very much a lethal risk to those behind the target. If you get right down to it, the way the Hague convention was worded to start with it didn't ban hollow point ammo. It said you weren't supposed to cause superfluous injury. AKA you are supposed to use stuff designed to kill, not to wound. Somehow out of that people decided that hollow points were bad and FMJ was good even though both are designed to kill the target.
 
2012-08-15 08:30:38 AM

BostonEMT: untaken_name: Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?

I agree that they need to clarify what the rounds will be used for - but I'm not too scared just yet. You act as if they're going to line up all the willing americans and off'em. If you're implying that thats a LOT of ammo - which in the civilian sense, it is - but in a "military sense", it isn't.

If you're going to go down "that path" and fear that DHS is going to over-run the civilian population, i encourage you to look at the ratios of rounds per kill in the last few wars. In Vietnam, it was 200,000 rounds of ammo per enemy combatant killed. so 1.6 billion rounds pencils out to 8,000 deaths (in a military combat situation). and thats assuming no rounds are used for practice or qualifying....

/maybe they need to start taking some notes on chicago/L.A./NYC gang bangers.


Yeah, I can see that.

s2.wallls.com
 
2012-08-15 08:31:25 AM

Hacker_X: A FMJ round will just go right on through and is still very much a lethal risk to those behind the target. If you get right down to it, the way the Hague convention was worded to start with it didn't ban hollow point ammo. It said you weren't supposed to cause superfluous injury. AKA you are supposed to use stuff designed to kill, not to wound. Somehow out of that people decided that hollow points were bad and FMJ was good even though both are designed to kill the target.


Sounds like expanding ammo would meet the rules better then.
 
2012-08-15 08:33:44 AM

Deep Contact:
Yeah, I can see that.

[s2.wallls.com image 590x331]


see how they hold their guns sideways?
 
2012-08-15 08:36:01 AM

Captain_Ballbeard: Hacker_X: A FMJ round will just go right on through and is still very much a lethal risk to those behind the target. If you get right down to it, the way the Hague convention was worded to start with it didn't ban hollow point ammo. It said you weren't supposed to cause superfluous injury. AKA you are supposed to use stuff designed to kill, not to wound. Somehow out of that people decided that hollow points were bad and FMJ was good even though both are designed to kill the target.

Sounds like expanding ammo would meet the rules better then.


yeah - I figured FMJs would cause less cavitation than PPRs.

/oh well, treat 'em and street 'em
 
2012-08-15 08:36:43 AM
Shooting fish in a barrel?
 
2012-08-15 08:36:54 AM
i168.photobucket.com

This is just a false flag operation by the Office of Naval Research to distract the public from what is going on at HAARP. Already plans are under way to flip the Earth's magnetic poles in order to make the planet habitable by the Vril-ya. The government has been trying to stop me and my psychic cat from making contact with the Ascended Masters by breaking the channel selector on my television and forcing me to watch re-runs of The George Lopez Show during my lunch hour. I was able to adjust the amplitude of my hot plate to send a microburst signal beacon to Maitreya and soon if we all focus on the Secret Chamber of the Great Pyramid of Giza we will be able to lower the temperature of the Earth a full degree and stop their plans.
 
2012-08-15 08:44:45 AM

ChuckyV: This is just a false flag operation by the Office of Naval Research to distract the public from what is going on at HAARP. Already plans are under way to flip the Earth's magnetic poles in order to make the planet habitable by the Vril-ya. The government has been trying to stop me and my psychic cat from making contact with the Ascended Masters by breaking the channel selector on my television and forcing me to watch re-runs of The George Lopez Show during my lunch hour. I was able to adjust the amplitude of my hot plate to send a microburst signal beacon to Maitreya and soon if we all focus on the Secret Chamber of the Great Pyramid of Giza we will be able to lower the temperature of the Earth a full degree and stop their plans.


sounds like you're already wearing your purple Nike's
 
2012-08-15 08:47:44 AM

Captain_Ballbeard: dittybopper: Katolu: Want to have some fun? Go to the site Abovetopsecret.com and have a look around.

/was a member for a while but kept getting threatened because I dared try to debunk a stupid "conspiracy". Glad I escaped.

Every so often, when I have the time, I'll listen to Alex Jones on shortwave. It's actually kind of funny.

Alex Jones serves his purpose. When people start looking at the Grassy Knoll, he starts screaming about Elvis being spotted nearby in a UFO. Perps whistle and walk away.

If you listen to SW you know what S/N is. Alex's job is to be the N.

"Missiles on 9/11 planes, thermite, Elvis, fake OBL. Cui Bono? What does that mean?", asks Alex Jones, Mike Ruppert et al.


Actually, in English, almost all of the domestic broadcasters are religious stations. Hell, even Alex Jones is on a religious station (WWCR). The only one I know of that isn't religious per se is WBCQ up in Maine, and they do rent out airtime to religious shows.
 
2012-08-15 08:48:29 AM

BostonEMT: sounds like you're already wearing your purple Nike's


A nurple pike would be a formidable weapon.
 
2012-08-15 08:49:18 AM
It just cracks me up that people are surprised that law enforcement organizations buy ammo, and in bulk. As if they didn't realize that the government is well armed, and trains regularly. And they have budgets and try to save money when they can while still meeting their mission.
 
2012-08-15 08:51:57 AM

gilatrout: The fisheries dept at NOAA is made up of 2 branches, the scientists which we all hear about, and the enforcement or police branch which you don't hear about unless you are in a fishing community like Gloucester MA.

They have a police/enforcement branch for the same reason the National Parks Service Rangers have one. They enforce federal law on federal territory, and they have to deal with people who are armed.

Csb time.

The enforcement branch has gotten NMFS in trouble with overreaching their authority and totally farked up any good will and rapport the scientists had with the fishermen.


and don't forget, NOAA is one of this country's "Uniformed Services" after all. I'll admit that I'll start to worry about the Zombie Apocalypse when the US Public Health Service (another Uniformed Service) orders up 100K rounds of 12-gauge #00 buckshot.
 
2012-08-15 08:54:54 AM

Gyrfalcon: tinfoil-hat maggie: Kittypie070: Would you conspiracy nutters all just go choke to death on a nice can of cream of bullet soup now?

I only believe in real conspiracies, this isn't one.

What IS the conspiracy anyway? Do they think that the NOAA Weather Service is now seeding clouds from the ground? That the Fisheries Dept. is going to be killing random marlin fishermen? Or are they just unaware that the Fisheries guys are worried about running into drug smugglers on the open sea where a badge and a stern warning might not go very far?


They do believe the government and weather agencies are actively involved with weather manipulation, i.e. chemtrails. This ammunition story proved that the government was gearing up for martial law, and a fight with the people as a result of a controlled economic implosion.
 
2012-08-15 08:56:14 AM

dittybopper: untaken_name: BostonEMT: untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link

yeah, but remember, DHS has what? - 8 or 10 agencies under it, so they could be buying ammo for the whole lot (save for the secret service)... the coast gaurd is one of them too... divide that by how many employees?, how many of which are "officially" armed and need to re-certify every year?, yadda yadda yadda... lobster bisque...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Sec u rity

Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?

You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.

Also, you have to *PRACTICE* to maintain proficiency.


So you're OK with law enforcement using ammunition that is illegal for use by the military worldwide?
 
2012-08-15 09:01:06 AM

untaken_name: You're off by a factor of 1000. 1,200,000,000 / 200,000 = 6000, not 6. Additionally, I doubt the secretaries and janitors and car pool guys carry guns.


I meant 6k? Yeah. That's it and I don't actualy have poor math skills.
Janitors don't get a gun? Fark that. I'm withdrawing my application as a sanitation technician then.
 
2012-08-15 09:11:10 AM

SharkTrager: So you're OK with law enforcement using ammunition that is illegal for use by the military worldwide?


YES.

Hollow points are more effective at killing someone, as they cause more trauma. They ONLY reason you should be shooting at someone is if they pose such a risk that you need them dead, and you need them dead NOW. Hollow points help with the NOW part.
The military doesn't use hollow points for two reasons. One...for some odd damn reason, the people who signed the Hauge and Geneva conventions felt FMJ rounds kill more 'humainly'. Personaly I don't see a difference. Dead is dead. But we're supposed to kill each other 'nicely' in war, so we use FMJ rounds.
Reason 2 is because of body armor. HP rounds arn't as effective against body armor as a FMJ is. Especially if it has a steel or tungsten penetrator.
Any troops of suffecent technology would probably be wearing some form of body armor. Of course when you're fighting a bunch of skinnies, FMJ rounds don't work as well, as we found in Mogadishu, when we'd shoot one of them, and they'd keep running.

HP rounds are only illegal for military because of a stupid 'feel-good' law. Cops should absolutely carry HP rounds. And that's the only thing I have in my carry gun.
 
2012-08-15 09:14:30 AM
The National Weather Service is important for national security. The military and FAA depend on their work. They need to stay in business when the shiat hits the fan. The conspiracy theory is the fish cops needing this ammo.
 
2012-08-15 09:15:09 AM

CujoQuarrel: Gyrfalcon: BravadoGT: propasaurus: So, back during all the furor in the aftermath of the movie theater shooting, gun rights supporters were telling us that one guy buying 6,000 rounds of ammo is not something that should raise a red flag; it's perfectly reasonable for one person to have that much ammo.
Now, a government agency buying 46,000 rounds of ammo is cause for concern and indicative of some deep dark government conspiracy.
But if 6k rounds is an appropriate amount for one person, maybe the NOAA is just buying ammo for 8 guys. No big deal.

Why does the NOAA need any ammo?

You didn't RTFA didja?

It was really for NOAA's Dept. of Fisheries, which had to deal with drunk fishermen and drug smugglers on the open water without any backup.

But they still wouldn't be allowed hollow points. Since they have been outlawed in combat for over a hundred years I would think that they wouldn't be used by law enforcement either.


Not true, the Hague Convention only outlaws their use for international warfare.
 
2012-08-15 09:19:26 AM

cman: Well this makes me glad to know that if a foreign enemy decimates the military, obliterates police departments, destroys Homeland Security, massacre the TSA, then we will have the NOAA with their military weapons ready to defend the homeland.


WOLVERINES!!!1!!...see a chance of rain tomorrow, highs in the 80s, lows in the 60s....
 
2012-08-15 09:21:27 AM

SharkTrager: dittybopper: untaken_name: BostonEMT: untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link

yeah, but remember, DHS has what? - 8 or 10 agencies under it, so they could be buying ammo for the whole lot (save for the secret service)... the coast gaurd is one of them too... divide that by how many employees?, how many of which are "officially" armed and need to re-certify every year?, yadda yadda yadda... lobster bisque...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Sec u rity

Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?

You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.

Also, you have to *PRACTICE* to maintain proficiency.

So you're OK with law enforcement using ammunition that is illegal for use by the military worldwide?


Absolutely, because the Hague convention got it wrong, based upon misinformation about expanding bullets.

Consider this: It's considered bad practice, and in some states it's illegal, to hunt deer with full metal jacket bullets. Why? Because you are more likely to wound, and less likely to kill, the deer. It's considered to be inhumane to use FMJ on game.

Yet when we are talking about warfare, that somehow suddenly flips: It's OK to shoot someone with a bullet that is less likely to kill them as quickly, but not one that is more effective and considered more humane in a sporting context.

WTF?
 
2012-08-15 09:21:58 AM

MythDragon: SharkTrager: So you're OK with law enforcement using ammunition that is illegal for use by the military worldwide?

YES.

Hollow points are more effective at killing someone, as they cause more trauma. They ONLY reason you should be shooting at someone is if they pose such a risk that you need them dead, and you need them dead NOW. Hollow points help with the NOW part.
The military doesn't use hollow points for two reasons. One...for some odd damn reason, the people who signed the Hauge and Geneva conventions felt FMJ rounds kill more 'humainly'. Personaly I don't see a difference. Dead is dead. But we're supposed to kill each other 'nicely' in war, so we use FMJ rounds.
Reason 2 is because of body armor. HP rounds arn't as effective against body armor as a FMJ is. Especially if it has a steel or tungsten penetrator.
Any troops of suffecent technology would probably be wearing some form of body armor. Of course when you're fighting a bunch of skinnies, FMJ rounds don't work as well, as we found in Mogadishu, when we'd shoot one of them, and they'd keep running.

HP rounds are only illegal for military because of a stupid 'feel-good' law. Cops should absolutely carry HP rounds. And that's the only thing I have in my carry gun.


Hollow points also decrease the chance of collateral damage.There is less chance of going through the target and into other people.
 
2012-08-15 09:30:28 AM

Captain_Ballbeard: way south: Captain_Ballbeard: dittybopper: You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.

Balderdash.

Ball ammo at the gun range, hollow points on the free range.

Ball because its cheap and many pistols aren't very accurate.
But if we're talking rifles, there can be a distinct performance difference.

Yeah, so train on a comfy range with the most accurate ammo you can find, that will translate into success when under pressure.


Since ball ammo and target ammo is loaded to lower pressures an behaves differently, training with ball is not realistic for law enforcement, because everything from point of impact to recoil profile can vary quite a bit.

For those who are expected to use their weapons to some degree, the differences matter enough that training with your duty ammo is a requirement.

Also, to verify a weapon for function in law enforcement requires at least 1000 rounds. Add to this that as lots of ammo are used up, and new lots are purchased, they may be of different design, so they must be tested for function/reliability and to familiarize the shooter with poi, recoil, etc.

Law enforcement burns through a lot of ammo on training, too.
 
2012-08-15 09:31:17 AM
the government is sooo trustworthy.......
 
2012-08-15 09:36:53 AM

BostonEMT: skantea: I love a good conspiracy theory. Don't understand why people get mad about it. It's 99% harmless, and about 20% true...eventually...40 years after everyone who might get hurt by the truth is dead.

I think it all goes to why is the information "classified"? for , why is the gub'mint, who likes to tout just how open they are, classifying things that would otherwise not matter?

case-in-point 1: why has the FBI "classified" (or otherwise ruled out releasing) the 50+ surveillance videos of the plane hitting the pentagon? that makes no sense. So, people "assume" that something is being covered up. I think that natural to a degree, but at the same time, people tend to go WAY too far on these things.

case-in-point 2: Why is our president - who ran on a ticket of openness and transparency spending so much money to hide his school financial records? it makes no sense, so people "assume" there is something to hide.

there are a LOT of questions about a LOT of things. In the end, what can be done about ANY of them?


Wow, you went all truther AND birther on that one. Good job.
 
2012-08-15 09:37:46 AM
The US military has the authority to indefinitely detain and/or outright assassinate US citizens, even on US soil. The executive has the discretion to strip any citizen of their constitutional rights based on hearsay. The military was granted authority to operate its surveillance drones and blimps over the US. It's an open secret that the US has wire-tapped essentially *everything* that travels through telco switching rooms. Congress retroactively granted immunity to the telcos for their participation in any illegal wiretapping of citizens, past or future. The Patriot Act created "constitution free zones" that give the green light to any violation of the first, second and fourth amendment that anyone might want, with no oversight. These zones cover 80% of the population of the country. The TSA is groping and/or porno-scanning just about every air traveler (with rights to detain and strip-search for no declared reason), with plans to expand to rail and bus travelers, and even drive-by porno-scanning of pedestrians and motorists. The military was granted the legal right to turn their propaganda machine against the US citizenry, via domestic news sources. Our government has not only been exposed as having slipped known-false propaganda to major media organizations (Iraq/WMD), even for political reasons (plame), and leaned on them to suppress inconvenient facts (Iraq/WMD/wikileaks), but has *promised* to create false news stories to make it sound like they're doing a bang-up job busting terrorists, ya know, to keep the terrorists off-guard. The FBI has been handing fake bombs to any angry incompetent they can find, busting them when they so much as put the fake device in their car, and then high-fiving one another for keeping us safe. They may well be (now legally) outright fabricating such stories, without needing so much as an angry anti-social loser for a patsy, because why the fark wouldn't they?

... and Alex Jones has time to worry about 46,000 rounds of ammo???
 
2012-08-15 09:38:57 AM

dittybopper: Yet when we are talking about warfare, that somehow suddenly flips: It's OK to shoot someone with a bullet that is less likely to kill them as quickly, but not one that is more effective and considered more humane in a sporting context.


It depends on who you ask. Because if a soldier survives the initial hit he probably doesn't want to die to an infection or internal injury caused by a shard of copper that separated from the bullets jacket.
From the doctors perspective it is more efficient to remove a whole bullet than to poke around looking for broken bits of metal, possibly causing more damage.

HP is only to the advantage of the shooter, and personally I think the difference between the two is nominal at best.
If someone is going to chew my ear off about how 9mm doesn't have less stopping power than .45acp, I won't sit back and let them claim that an expanded 9mm is better than 9mm ball.

/....I apologize in advance if this leads to a stopping power thread, but it has to be said.
 
2012-08-15 09:49:20 AM

dittybopper: untaken_name: dittybopper: Consider this: From a price standpoint, it may actually be cheaper to buy 46,000 rounds of hollowpoint in a single caliber than it is to buy X rounds of ball and Y rounds of hollowpoint which added together total up to 46,000 rounds. You'd get a bigger discount that way.

But if you use hollowpoints at the range you have to repair the range much more often. That would easily outweigh any discount you'd get.

How often do you have to repair a berm?.


It's not the berm. Most outdoor ranges have some kind of wooden structure that you attach your targets to. FMJ makes little round holes while JHP knocks out large chunks. They end up having to constantly rebuild the thing if people shoot at it with hollow points.
 
2012-08-15 09:51:50 AM

way south: dittybopper: Yet when we are talking about warfare, that somehow suddenly flips: It's OK to shoot someone with a bullet that is less likely to kill them as quickly, but not one that is more effective and considered more humane in a sporting context.

It depends on who you ask. Because if a soldier survives the initial hit he probably doesn't want to die to an infection or internal injury caused by a shard of copper that separated from the bullets jacket.
From the doctors perspective it is more efficient to remove a whole bullet than to poke around looking for broken bits of metal, possibly causing more damage.

HP is only to the advantage of the shooter, and personally I think the difference between the two is nominal at best.
If someone is going to chew my ear off about how 9mm doesn't have less stopping power than .45acp, I won't sit back and let them claim that an expanded 9mm is better than 9mm ball.

/....I apologize in advance if this leads to a stopping power thread, but it has to be said.


The problem is that you can design FMJ rounds to do just that, fragment, and that's what we've been doing for the last 40 years or so, so it's a meaningless distinction at this point.
 
2012-08-15 10:13:52 AM

dittybopper: Absolutely, because the Hague convention got it wrong, based upon misinformation about expanding bullets.

Consider this: It's considered bad practice, and in some states it's illegal, to hunt deer with full metal jacket bullets. Why? Because you are more likely to wound, and less likely to kill, the deer. It's considered to be inhumane to use FMJ on game.

Yet when we are talking about warfare, that somehow suddenly flips: It's OK to shoot someone with a bullet that is less likely to kill them as quickly, but not one that is more effective and considered more humane in a sporting context.

WTF?


Good points. However, the plus points of having injured enemy soldiers on the battlefield as opposed to dead ones is that the injured one will take at least one other soldier out of the fight to administer aid, and possibly a further 4 to transport out. Added to that the effect on morale of a screaming colleague, the drain on resources etc. and I can see why military commanders might prefer FMJs.

That of course doesn't answer why the authors of the Hague Convention made the choices they did. Could it be an odd way of trying to make war less deadly? You remove opposition just as effectively, but they don't die nearly as much so you can feel better about being at war? Who knows.
 
2012-08-15 10:16:21 AM
Could have been worse. 46,000 rounds of armor piercing AK47 ammo.
 
2012-08-15 10:18:45 AM

untaken_name: No one has yet said anything which overcomes these objections in explaining why DHS would need to target shoot with hollowpoints. No one has even explained why it's ok for the DHS to USE hollowpoints when they violate the Hague Convention*.


Doesn't the CIA/FBI fall under the DHS now? That's a pretty big nation-wide police force that would tend to go through lots of ammo. They also are likely to be selling/giving that ammo to other countries for their internal protection duties.
 
2012-08-15 10:18:51 AM
My lines from yesterday about this -

"When lightning strkes, the National Weather Service strikes back!"
"Hail of hail, meet hail of bullets!"
 
2012-08-15 10:25:13 AM

o5iiawah


But is it that AK-47 Glock assault ammo that we've been hearing about lately?


Yeah, it's the cop-piercing armor-killing ammo loaded into bananarama magaclips.
 
2012-08-15 10:34:03 AM

untaken_name: Have you ever seen what hollowpoints do to target ranges? The difference to the shooter is minimal, as I know from firsthand experience, but the difference to the target is major. That is the whole reason that every pistol range I've ever been a member of forbids the use of hollowpoints and requires the use of FMJ for practice.


As a firearms instructor... WTF are you talking about? Most ranges that "ban" JHP ammunition do so because they require you to purchase range ammo, and they only sell the cheap FMJ they got in bulk.. not because JHP are super explosion range destroying ammunition. I shoot JHP during IDPA all the time. It doesn't do anything different to steel plate or backstops.
 
2012-08-15 10:50:16 AM
Hollow points for target practice. Not being a gun guy, I wonder if there wasn't a less scary round for hitting inanimate objects.

/Before I read the article I assumed they were the much-touted "drought-killers" we read so much about.
 
2012-08-15 11:01:44 AM

dittybopper: way south: dittybopper: Yet when we are talking about warfare, that somehow suddenly flips: It's OK to shoot someone with a bullet that is less likely to kill them as quickly, but not one that is more effective and considered more humane in a sporting context.

It depends on who you ask. Because if a soldier survives the initial hit he probably doesn't want to die to an infection or internal injury caused by a shard of copper that separated from the bullets jacket.
From the doctors perspective it is more efficient to remove a whole bullet than to poke around looking for broken bits of metal, possibly causing more damage.

HP is only to the advantage of the shooter, and personally I think the difference between the two is nominal at best.
If someone is going to chew my ear off about how 9mm doesn't have less stopping power than .45acp, I won't sit back and let them claim that an expanded 9mm is better than 9mm ball.

/....I apologize in advance if this leads to a stopping power thread, but it has to be said.

The problem is that you can design FMJ rounds to do just that, fragment, and that's what we've been doing for the last 40 years or so, so it's a meaningless distinction at this point.


dl.dropbox.com

dl.dropbox.com

dl.dropbox.com

It can still be meaningful because even deforming types of full Jacket are not not meant to flail open. Which will slightly broaden the bullet surface but not as wide, and its still not meant to increase the amount of fragmentation (altho the details of that may be debatable).
Its not clear if this is better than trading up to a larger bullet size if you don't get that flower of sharp metal and debris spreading into the wound and cutting vital things.

Its the shrapnel that turns a normal bullet wound into a "FARK YOU!" kind of bullet wound.
 
2012-08-15 11:18:50 AM
Why does the NWS need ammo? I mean I'm not wanting to jump aboard the Alex jones train, but can someone seriously answer me what they do that they would need it for, I mean its not like you are gonna shoot a tornado with your glock or something.
 
2012-08-15 11:19:52 AM

way south: It can still be meaningful because even deforming types of full Jacket are not not meant to flail open. Which will slightly broaden the bullet surface but not as wide, and its still not meant to increase the amount of fragmentation (altho the details of that may be debatable).
Its not clear if this is better than trading up to a larger bullet size if you don't get that flower of sharp metal and debris spreading into the wound and cutting vital things.

Its the shrapnel that turns a normal bullet wound into a "FARK YOU!" kind of bullet wound.


Back when I hunted deer with a modern rifle, I switched bullets from 150 grain Winchester SilverTits to 165 grain Sierra GameKings. The reason was because the Winchester bullets kept "blowing up", ie., significantly fragmenting on impact. This is a problem when using a .30'06 at relatively close ranges, and on less than optimal shots, it had the effect of destroying a *LOT* of good meat. The GameKings didn't do that, though: They expanded well and generally exited whole, and I never saw evidence that they blew apart like the 150 grain bullets, even at short range. Part is probably due to construction, and part to the slower velocity of the heavier bullet.

/I just use the flintlock now.
//A .535" 230 grain lead ball on a greased linen patch.
 
2012-08-15 11:30:20 AM

Oldiron_79: Why does the NWS need ammo? I mean I'm not wanting to jump aboard the Alex jones train, but can someone seriously answer me what they do that they would need it for, I mean its not like you are gonna shoot a tornado with your glock or something.


It isn't the National Weather Service purchasing the ammo, it is it's parent agency, NOAA, purchasing it for the Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement (da fish cops). It was a clerical error on the form that implied it was for the NWS, while explicitly stating that it was to be delivered to da fish cops.
 
2012-08-15 11:33:27 AM
Looks like NOAA is going to deal with the denier problem the old fashioned way.

/been waiting for this
 
2012-08-15 11:38:59 AM

untaken_name: BostonEMT: untaken_name: Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?

I agree that they need to clarify what the rounds will be used for - but I'm not too scared just yet. You act as if they're going to line up all the willing americans and off'em. If you're implying that thats a LOT of ammo - which in the civilian sense, it is - but in a "military sense", it isn't.

If you're going to go down "that path" and fear that DHS is going to over-run the civilian population, i encourage you to look at the ratios of rounds per kill in the last few wars. In Vietnam, it was 200,000 rounds of ammo per enemy combatant killed. so 1.6 billion rounds pencils out to 8,000 deaths (in a military combat situation). and thats assuming no rounds are used for practice or qualifying....

/maybe they need to start taking some notes on chicago/L.A./NYC gang bangers.

1. the DHS isn't a military force
2. Any fighting in urban areas will be completely different from the jungle environment of vietnam
3. DHS has been training its people for years without making such large ammo and riot gear purchases
4. why the sudden need to train with hollowpoint when they haven't been in the past?


12/12/12 is fast approaching.

ARE YOU READY!
 
2012-08-15 11:39:03 AM

jaybeezey: I think the real question here is, "Who knew that the NOAA had a armed tean to handle the dangers of fisheries and where is their reality TV show?"


Fisheries enforcement can be exceptionally dangerous. A lot of fishermen aren't quite all there in the head. Once had a captain charge at us with a sledgehammer because we were going to cite him for failing to have a working toilet on his boat. Crew was shiatting in a bucket in the shower and they'd dump it over the side when it was full. Of course, he had a lot of other citations, too, but that was the one that pissed him off the most.

On topic, most of the NMFS guys I met were pretty cool characters.

/ex-Coastie
//he went to jail, fishing boat got towed back to port
 
2012-08-15 11:43:19 AM

The Envoy: dittybopper: Absolutely, because the Hague convention got it wrong, based upon misinformation about expanding bullets.

Consider this: It's considered bad practice, and in some states it's illegal, to hunt deer with full metal jacket bullets. Why? Because you are more likely to wound, and less likely to kill, the deer. It's considered to be inhumane to use FMJ on game.

Yet when we are talking about warfare, that somehow suddenly flips: It's OK to shoot someone with a bullet that is less likely to kill them as quickly, but not one that is more effective and considered more humane in a sporting context.

WTF?

Good points. However, the plus points of having injured enemy soldiers on the battlefield as opposed to dead ones is that the injured one will take at least one other soldier out of the fight to administer aid, and possibly a further 4 to transport out. Added to that the effect on morale of a screaming colleague, the drain on resources etc. and I can see why military commanders might prefer FMJs.

That of course doesn't answer why the authors of the Hague Convention made the choices they did. Could it be an odd way of trying to make war less deadly? You remove opposition just as effectively, but they don't die nearly as much so you can feel better about being at war? Who knows.


This. My drill sergeant answered this question for one of the other idiots in my platoon (after the obligatory 20 pushups for everyone). He was actually a very educated man, and for about an hour he explained a lot of why we carried what we carried and shot what we shot. He cited (and I can't seem to find anything pertinent in the time I have now) a post-action summary of action in Guadalcanal that found that every wounded man required up to 12 other men to evacuate and treat him.
Logistics is what wins wars. Everything from beans and bullets to boots and grunts. Numbers win. Yeah, SF guys make it look sexy, but in the end numbers persevere. Buying ammo in bulk is cheaper. And police aren't restricted by the Hague convention. They have a different mission altogether. Instead of wounding a guy and making the other side deal with him, they need their weapons to stop the assailant NOW. And they don't have a massive supply train to support them if they run low. They usually only have what's on their belt with maybe a small stash in their vehicle, which may or may not be a distance away from them. A beat officer can't radio in for a chopper to drop in a fresh box or two if he gets in a jam.

A local police agency uses the range at the club I belong to. They are restricted to lead or plated ammo there, and supplement using their carry ammo at a (much more) expensive range for certain reasons. First off, no matter what ammunition you're using, nothing beats throwing lead downrange in order to know your weapon. Second, it's a small department, and like everything else, disposables (toilet paper, office supplies, etc,) comes from the lowest bidder, so they may suddenly find themselves using a different brand of ammunition depending on what they buyers got. Third, if everything goes really, really, wrong and they have to make do with whatever they can get their hands on, it helps for them to be flexible enough to use it effectively.
 
2012-08-15 11:44:33 AM

dittybopper: Part is probably due to construction, and part to the slower velocity of the heavier bullet.


I havn't had much experience hunting, so I can't speak from personal experience.
I have read that higher velocity rounds have a bad habit of wanting to boat tail and flip when they hit flesh, and the shock of all that force can outright destroy the bullet.

It may be a loophole in the Hague when a properly made Assault rifles FMJ round "just happens" to explode because it was traveling at twice the normal speed of a WW2 rifle round.

dittybopper: /I just use the flintlock now.
//A .535" 230 grain lead ball on a greased linen patch.


The old ways are the best.

/If I ever did have to put meat on the table I'd probably use my Mosin.
/Not many deer down in the islands, so people just leave them alone.
 
2012-08-15 11:45:29 AM

BarkingUnicorn: So the hollow-points will be used to protect fish and not weather vanes. I'm so relieved!


NOAA Fisheries Enforcement Officers must often board vessels and this can be dangerous. They are trained the same way an FBI or ATF agent is trained.
 
2012-08-15 12:12:40 PM

BostonEMT: untaken_name: So our military can't use hollowpoint rounds but it's okay for the DHS to?

THAT is an good and interesting point...


DHS isnt limited by things like the Geneva Convention and other articles that dictate international rules of war, which outlaw hollowpoint ammo, among other things.
 
2012-08-15 12:25:07 PM

Fluorescent Testicle: [cdn2-b.examiner.com image 600x330]


This is why they need ammo

Citizens getting tired of the same ol same ol
 
2012-08-15 12:53:19 PM
Ummm, Burbank, we have a problem....
 
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