wee: Asa Phelps: I asked if they saw the irony in that.

My local gun store has a picture of Obama on the wall with "Salesman of the Year" signs below it for every year since he was elected. He's done a lot to increase gun sales, actually.

propasaurus: But if 6k rounds is an appropriate amount for one person, maybe the NOAA is just buying ammo for 8 guys. No big deal.

It isn't really. If things shoot them at 650 and 750 rounds a minute, that adds up fast. So it pays the casual shooter to buy in bulk when you find a good deal.

A minute? With a pistol?

Headline: Conspiracy theorists

BostonEMT: skantea: I love a good conspiracy theory.
50+ surveillance videos of the plane hitting the pentagon
our president - who ran on a ticket of openness and transparency spending so much money to hide his school financial records?

Is this a joke?

untaken_name: BostonEMT: untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link

yeah, but remember, DHS has what? - 8 or 10 agencies under it, so they could be buying ammo for the whole lot (save for the secret service)... the coast gaurd is one of them too... divide that by how many employees?, how many of which are "officially" armed and need to re-certify every year?, yadda yadda yadda... lobster bisque...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Sec u rity

Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?

They're not training with target rounds.

Asa Phelps: You mean the NOAA Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement.

Required the gubment to own up to their error. Oh and can someone please explain why NOAA enforces anything? Isn't there some other government agency that does this?

gameshowhost: *reads*

Yup. Alex Jones. He's got an amazing record for uncovering plots and simultaneously not whiffing on everything else he proclaims.

/so i was told, just recently

He has an amazing record of keeping everybody's eye off the ball, which is his job.

People are convicted of conspiracy every day in this country, black guys "conspiring" to sell crack and whatnot for a few thousand bucks. But start wondering what lengths people would go to for BILLIONS and whoa there Sparky, that's a conspiracy theory.

dittybopper: You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.

Balderdash.

Ball ammo at the gun range, hollow points on the free range.

That isnt unusual. A lot of departments go through several hundred rounds per officer once or twice a year for practice and qualifications. More for specialized agencies/officers. Really nothing to see here.

untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link

Buy in bulk to save money?
I don't know much about what DHS does with it all, or if they also stockpile for emergencies. But I doubt they'd ever run short if it came to murdering civilians anyway, so I'll wager the number is more about some contractual stuff than anything nefarious.

100 rounds per session is just warm up. A competition shooter can burn over a thousand, easy.
Officers have to qualify and do various training exercises. So somewhere in between is where they'd be if they did more than stand still and point at the paper.

/46,000 isn't that much, considering.
/A billion is much, but maybe not if they train alot and deliveries are spread out over years.
/Its the whole "why do you need a gun" foolishness that's got us asking retarded questions.

Captain_Ballbeard: dittybopper: You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.

Balderdash.

Ball ammo at the gun range, hollow points on the free range.

Ball because its cheap and many pistols aren't very accurate.
But if we're talking rifles, there can be a distinct performance difference.

mister aj: Case-in-point 3: Why is our "president" spending 2 mill of taxpayer money on lawyers to keep his birth certificate sealed, and to fight any attempt in court to unseal it? No previous president has done this, but then previous presidents have been legal Americans.

Because people are stupid and will believe anything they hear without question.. like stories that the guy who released his birth certificate to the public, twice, which is two times more than any other president before him, is somehow trying to hide his birth certificate. And that a Hawaiian birth certificate will somehow... prove? his lack of citizenship.

/NSIS, but too many people *still* believe that, including one guy who I used to think was reasonably bright.

We train NOAA here in the simulators. The stories of the nut-cases they encounter curl your skin back. They need to protect themselves. No one seem to realize out on the ocean it's worse than the sterotypes of the old times wild west.

So now the mainstream MSM media is writing stories about guys who fling their caca agains the wall and scream that it makes a picture of the Prophet Scapulus whispering Templar secrets about the melting point of steel.

Cool.

way south: Captain_Ballbeard: dittybopper: You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.

Balderdash.

Ball ammo at the gun range, hollow points on the free range.

Ball because its cheap and many pistols aren't very accurate.
But if we're talking rifles, there can be a distinct performance difference.

Yeah, so train on a comfy range with the most accurate ammo you can find, that will translate into success when under pressure.

tkwasny: We train NOAA here in the simulators. The stories of the nut-cases they encounter curl your skin back. They need to protect themselves. No one seem to realize out on the ocean it's worse than the sterotypes of the old times wild west.

I was drinking with a Florida Fish and Wildlife guy once, he was shot at (and missed) by Cubans who had loaded a 12' fiberglass v-hull to the gunnels with Rock Lobsters. He said he didn't even have time to react before the guy was empty and threw his gun over the side - in 8' of water lol. The other one jammed the throttle to Full, jumped and took off swimming. He said he doesn't like being offshore.

meanmutton: untaken_name: BostonEMT: untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link

yeah, but remember, DHS has what? - 8 or 10 agencies under it, so they could be buying ammo for the whole lot (save for the secret service)... the coast gaurd is one of them too... divide that by how many employees?, how many of which are "officially" armed and need to re-certify every year?, yadda yadda yadda... lobster bisque...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Sec u rity

Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?

They're not training with target rounds.

So our military can't use hollowpoint rounds but it's okay for the DHS to? Additionally, if they're using them for target practice, they're going to dramatically increase the cost of maintaining those ranges. Additionally, the difference between firing FMJ and firing hollowpoints is tiny, except to the target. Finally, if *I* have to use FMJ at the range, they should, too.

untaken_name: Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?

I agree that they need to clarify what the rounds will be used for - but I'm not too scared just yet. You act as if they're going to line up all the willing americans and off'em. If you're implying that thats a LOT of ammo - which in the civilian sense, it is - but in a "military sense", it isn't.

If you're going to go down "that path" and fear that DHS is going to over-run the civilian population, i encourage you to look at the ratios of rounds per kill in the last few wars. In Vietnam, it was 200,000 rounds of ammo per enemy combatant killed. so 1.6 billion rounds pencils out to 8,000 deaths (in a military combat situation). and thats assuming no rounds are used for practice or qualifying....

/maybe they need to start taking some notes on chicago/L.A./NYC gang bangers.

I think the real question here is, "Who knew that the NOAA had a armed tean to handle the dangers of fisheries and where is their reality TV show?"

MythDragon: untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link

That doesn't worry me at all.
DHS employes something like 200,000 people. That works out to 6 bullets a person. They need to maintain some kind of stock, and they need bullets to practice with as well.

DHS wants to stock up on pistol ammo? No problem. DHS orders 1.2 billion .50 bmg rounds, or 40mm grenade rounds, then I'll start worrying.

You're off by a factor of 1000. 1,200,000,000 / 200,000 = 6000, not 6. Additionally, I doubt the secretaries and janitors and car pool guys carry guns.

BostonEMT: untaken_name: Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?

I agree that they need to clarify what the rounds will be used for - but I'm not too scared just yet. You act as if they're going to line up all the willing americans and off'em. If you're implying that thats a LOT of ammo - which in the civilian sense, it is - but in a "military sense", it isn't.

If you're going to go down "that path" and fear that DHS is going to over-run the civilian population, i encourage you to look at the ratios of rounds per kill in the last few wars. In Vietnam, it was 200,000 rounds of ammo per enemy combatant killed. so 1.6 billion rounds pencils out to 8,000 deaths (in a military combat situation). and thats assuming no rounds are used for practice or qualifying....

/maybe they need to start taking some notes on chicago/L.A./NYC gang bangers.

1. the DHS isn't a military force
2. Any fighting in urban areas will be completely different from the jungle environment of vietnam
3. DHS has been training its people for years without making such large ammo and riot gear purchases
4. why the sudden need to train with hollowpoint when they haven't been in the past?

untaken_name: So our military can't use hollowpoint rounds but it's okay for the DHS to?

THAT is an good and interesting point...

untaken_name: BostonEMT: untaken_name: I'm actually a lot more worried about the 1.2 BILLION hollowpoints the DHS has recently ordered. Link

yeah, but remember, DHS has what? - 8 or 10 agencies under it, so they could be buying ammo for the whole lot (save for the secret service)... the coast gaurd is one of them too... divide that by how many employees?, how many of which are "officially" armed and need to re-certify every year?, yadda yadda yadda... lobster bisque...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Sec u rity

Yes, but do they need enough hollowpoints (which are action rounds, not target rounds) to shoot every American three times? Really?

Well, that is assuming every single shot hits. Do keep in mind that it is rather typical to carry at least 2 spare magazine on the belt along with the one in the gun. I don't know exactly which guns they are loading these rounds in but i highly doubt they are using 10 round magazine. Probably 12 of 15 round magazines. Assuming 12 round magazines and that they aren't walking around with 1 round already chambered that is a minimum of 36 rounds of ammo per user. Take it up to a 15 round mag and that is a minimum of 45 rounds per user.

At 36 rounds a user 1.2 billion round would equip 33.3 million users. Of course that math only works out if every one of them is only carrying 2 spare magazines and absolutely nothing is left in storage anywhere which is absurd.

One person going through something like shoot house training can easily go through over 1,000 rounds in one day. Even normal range shooting can easily use over 100 rounds in an hour. These people are required to go through routine qualifications and tons of training. Assuming everybody was still only carrying 12 round magazines and going through training and qualifications once per year and never visiting the range outside of that a figure of 1136 rounds per user leave you able to equip a little over a million users. Again, that is with the absurd assumption that nothing is being stockpiled or stored and all of it is either being used at ranges or being carried.

Increase even some of the guns to 15 round magazines, assume some users are walking around with more that 2 spare magazines on them or they have extra magazines stored in a vehicle, and that spare ammo is distributed to stations/bases all over the entire continent and what you are left with is an extremely reasonable amount of ammo for a single year.

If you think 1.2 billion rounds is that much pistol ammo for something like 1/3 to 1/2 of the government then you really don't want to think about how many rounds of .223 they use just practicing with M16s on burst fire.

Big Dave: Headline: Conspiracy theorists

BostonEMT: skantea: I love a good conspiracy theory.
50+ surveillance videos of the plane hitting the pentagon
our president - who ran on a ticket of openness and transparency spending so much money to hide his school financial records?

Is this a joke?

no - they are questions whose answers are classified, no *apparently* good reason.

/please feel free to give us the answers.

Captain_Ballbeard: way south: Captain_Ballbeard: dittybopper: You have to practice with the same rounds you carry.

Balderdash.

Ball ammo at the gun range, hollow points on the free range.

Ball because its cheap and many pistols aren't very accurate.
But if we're talking rifles, there can be a distinct performance difference.

Yeah, so train on a comfy range with the most accurate ammo you can find, that will translate into success when under pressure.

Like I said, I don't know how they spend it. But I'd think the point is not to train in air conditioned comfort but to get all dressed up in your battle rattle and try to simulate actual situations.Make the guys run a bit, shoot at moving targets, do the whole killhouse routine and whatever else it is they do.

I mean, consider the real scenario you are preparing for. Say you need to shoot at a crazy man standing near other people or chase a suspect into a house. How accurate is your gun? Can you reliably gamble on this thing? How likely is it to jam?

If the cheap stuff groups in a dinner plate sized area and the good stuff gives you groupings the size of a coaster, its going to make a difference in training and that translates to the final decision.
An officer might pass up an easy shot because he just doesn't trust his rig.

Hacker_X: If you think 1.2 billion rounds is that much pistol ammo for something like 1/3 to 1/2 of the government then you really don't want to think about how many rounds of .223 they use just practicing with M16s on burst fire.

DHS isn't 1/3 of the government. Have you ever seen what hollowpoints do to target ranges? The difference to the shooter is minimal, as I know from firsthand experience, but the difference to the target is major. That is the whole reason that every pistol range I've ever been a member of forbids the use of hollowpoints and requires the use of FMJ for practice. No one has yet said anything which overcomes these objections in explaining why DHS would need to target shoot with hollowpoints. No one has even explained why it's ok for the DHS to USE hollowpoints when they violate the Hague Convention*.

/*Yes I understand that the Hague Convention applies specifically to international warfare, but what I'm really looking for is an explanation for why our purpose-built killers can't use hollowpoints because they're so bad and mean but our "protection" agency has no problem with it.

Even if it had been for the NWS, they have many facilities, a lot in remote areas. I would guess that they have security guards at many of them. You know, guards that carry a pistol.

dittybopper: Consider this: From a price standpoint, it may actually be cheaper to buy 46,000 rounds of hollowpoint in a single caliber than it is to buy X rounds of ball and Y rounds of hollowpoint which added together total up to 46,000 rounds. You'd get a bigger discount that way.

But if you use hollowpoints at the range you have to repair the range much more often. That would easily outweigh any discount you'd get.

BravadoGT: propasaurus: So, back during all the furor in the aftermath of the movie theater shooting, gun rights supporters were telling us that one guy buying 6,000 rounds of ammo is not something that should raise a red flag; it's perfectly reasonable for one person to have that much ammo.
Now, a government agency buying 46,000 rounds of ammo is cause for concern and indicative of some deep dark government conspiracy.
But if 6k rounds is an appropriate amount for one person, maybe the NOAA is just buying ammo for 8 guys. No big deal.

Why does the NOAA need any ammo?

Because their weather control technology cannot kill only one at a time yet. H.A.A.R.P still needs some work and you never know when the shiat will hit the fan.

untaken_name:
1. the DHS isn't a military force
2. Any fighting in urban areas will be completely different from the jungle environment of vietnam
3. DHS has been training its people for years without making such large ammo and riot gear purchases
4. why the sudden need to train with hollowpoint when they haven't been in the past?


1. DHS HAS military capability - one need only look at the Coast Guard before you get into the mazes of executive orders, patriot acts and COG plans.
2. This is true, but the civilian population is also well armed, and knows their own neighborhoods better and has more to fight for.
3. again true, which is why I think they need to explain themselves. They've also purchased a metric ass-load of bullet-proof guard towers for no *apparent* reason.
4. idk (my bff jill?). call it end of fiscal year spending - although most orders were placed prior to this season, let alone this month.

This is the whole point of the thread i think - is that there are so many questions, that the gub'mint's failure to answer them only breeds paranoia and conspiracy theories. It seems they are getting ready to take on the consequences, but are unable/unwilling to take on the cause...

BostonEMT: Big Dave: Headline: Conspiracy theorists

BostonEMT: skantea: I love a good conspiracy theory.
50+ surveillance videos of the plane hitting the pentagon
our president - who ran on a ticket of openness and transparency spending so much money to hide his school financial records?

Is this a joke?

no - they are questions whose answers are classified, no *apparently* good reason.

/please feel free to give us the answers.

So how much does it cost to "hide" your own school records?

But is it that AK-47 Glock assault ammo that we've been hearing about lately?

I dont know if anyone has pointed this out yet, but its weird to order that much hollowpoint. Normally you need a lot of ammo for practice shooting, hollowpoints are not for target shooting, theyre for making nasty wounds.

Asa Phelps: .

Back when barry soetoro was freshly elected, he and his other bircher friend - who i was bowling in league with at the time - were discussing how sure they were that obama wants to ban the sale of guns but knows that he can't so he'll ban the sale of ammunition.

.
Yeah, what's up with that theory, my dumb ass brother in law has such conspiratorial fantasies yet ammo is still for sale everywhere. But he assures me that the day will come when 0bama will ban ammo. He must be waiting for that uncertain second term with a divided congress to do such drastic action, just for dramatic affect you know.

nytmare: BostonEMT: Big Dave: Headline: Conspiracy theorists

BostonEMT: skantea: I love a good conspiracy theory.
50+ surveillance videos of the plane hitting the pentagon
our president - who ran on a ticket of openness and transparency spending so much money to hide his school financial records?

Is this a joke?

no - they are questions whose answers are classified, no *apparently* good reason.

/please feel free to give us the answers.

So how much does it cost to "hide" your own school records?

You can use google just as easily as I can - and if your plan is to answer a question WITH a question, you're only ADDING to the conspiracy theory.

Those weathermen need protection from all of the people who were promised sunshine last weekend and then got rain all over their picnics and beach parties.

I wonder if that is one of those government organizations where you could run into Valerie Plame in the lobby?

ourbigdumbmouth: There has been an awful lot of ammo orders recently. DHS, now this.

I just wonder how this compares to previous years.

Maybe they're just stockpiling like the tea party are.

They tend to buy on a three or five-year cycle, so last year and the year before, zero rounds were purchased.

zOMG that's an INFINITY PERCENT INCREASE! CLEARLY THE WILDLIFE SERVICE WILL KILL US ALL!

//It's a good idea to be armed when patrolling around wildlife conservation areas and national parks, that's where the cartels have most of their grow ops and those guys don't fark around. Plus, fisheries = bears in a lot of areas, hollowpoints about the only thing that will give even a small bear pause while you run the fark away if you find a rabid one.

//Generally when you're doing your yearly marksmanship qualification, if hollowpoint is what you're issued in the field, that's what'll be on the test, making it wise to practice with it for at least a few mags.

Gyrfalcon: BravadoGT: propasaurus: So, back during all the furor in the aftermath of the movie theater shooting, gun rights supporters were telling us that one guy buying 6,000 rounds of ammo is not something that should raise a red flag; it's perfectly reasonable for one person to have that much ammo.
Now, a government agency buying 46,000 rounds of ammo is cause for concern and indicative of some deep dark government conspiracy.
But if 6k rounds is an appropriate amount for one person, maybe the NOAA is just buying ammo for 8 guys. No big deal.

Why does the NOAA need any ammo?

You didn't RTFA didja?

It was really for NOAA's Dept. of Fisheries, which had to deal with drunk fishermen and drug smugglers on the open water without any backup.

But they still wouldn't be allowed hollow points. Since they have been outlawed in combat for over a hundred years I would think that they wouldn't be used by law enforcement either.

Cybernetic: Those weathermen need protection from all of the people who were promised sunshine last weekend and then got rain all over their picnics and beach parties.

Thats what you get in San Diego, homie. Thats how we roll, esse.

Want to have some fun? Go to the site Abovetopsecret.com and have a look around.

/was a member for a while but kept getting threatened because I dared try to debunk a stupid "conspiracy". Glad I escaped.

The fisheries dept at NOAA is made up of 2 branches, the scientists which we all hear about, and the enforcement or police branch which you don't hear about unless you are in a fishing community like Gloucester MA.

They have a police/enforcement branch for the same reason the National Parks Service Rangers have one. They enforce federal law on federal territory, and they have to deal with people who are armed.

Csb time.

The enforcement branch has gotten NMFS in trouble with overreaching their authority and totally farked up any good will and rapport the scientists had with the fishermen.

To be fair, you could change the part of the headline here that says "National Weather Service order for 46,000 rounds of hollowpoint ammo" to any fargin' thing you want and it would still be accurate. "sighting of opossum in my backyard" "wrong change giving at super market" "hot air balloon crash" "speeding motorist" "lawn watering" "paint drying faster than normal".

Weathermen are fed up with everybody's biatchin'!!!

This is why they need all that ammo, to hunt the El Nino and save the planet.