Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Fox News)   Yet another school district decides that it is in their best interest to waste a boat load of money losing a court battle. This time they want to keep religious songs in music class because it isn't really praying if you're singing   (foxnews.com ) divider line
    More: Asinine, religious musics, school districts, Bill Donohue, New York City Department of Education, Freedom From Religion Foundation, summer break, atheists, sings  
•       •       •

5501 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Aug 2012 at 5:18 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



260 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | » | Newest | Show all

 
2012-08-15 09:02:57 AM  

Persnickety: Anyone else notice that the only people who ever referred to Obama in religious terms (savior, lord, your god) were conservatives?


Not really surprising. It is after all how they're used to thinking about their own candidates. Not all that shocking that it's the only way they can process another party's.
 
2012-08-15 09:10:54 AM  

Ryan2065: I'm not against singing songs in school that are religious, but come on, you can't just put you prayers to music to get them in schools.


O RLY?

Would like a word with you...

s17.postimage.org

I'm as solid a progressive/liberal as they come, but the majority of music that exists in human history is liturgical in nature. Can't deny it, can't whitewash it, can't pretend it doesn't exist. Just embrace it as part of our heritage. Context is everything. As long as it's not being taught as part of a religous lesson, the separation is there. If the teacher is using it to teach rondels or fugues, well then who cares!

/Support the Arts!
 
2012-08-15 09:12:06 AM  

Dansker: slayer199: I'm also an agnostic (of course the atheists will end up hating more on us than the religious folk)

Since you bring it up, I just think you people are intellectually lazy and emotionally dishonest to yourselves, avoiding questions of belief with non sequiturs about proof. Otherwise fine people in general.
But nice bit of parenthetical, passive-aggressive self-victimization there.


Since you bring it up, thanks for the value judgment. You're welcome to believe what you believe. If you thought the same, you'd accept what we believe too.

Carl Sagan described what would happen if a two-dimensional creature from flat land were brought into a three-dimensional space, held up to see all of everything, and then set back down again. Watch it if you can because he explains the problems this creature would have in correctly perceiving, interpreting and relaying what it had seen in the way only he could.

If the Eternal Creator of All Things were to do the same for me: pluck me up by the head, look me in the eye, spin me around in his office for a few minutes and then put me back here I would have the same problem: I could talk until the sun burned out and not even begin to start to describe what I had seen. It could be that some of us have had that experience in the past, that the books they've written are their best attempts at this description and their apparent contradictions are just different sides of the same truth and they all meet in the middle in a place and a way we don't have a word for. Agnostics accept that possibility, but we do it knowing that it's far more likely that there is just no way mortal monkeys stuck in c-space on this little rock could use our scribbles and burping noises to not only accurately describe a god-thing, but explain how it thinks and feels, what it wants and why it cares where we put our penises, and to claim otherwise is a remarkable feat of arrogance, even for a human. The bacteria in my intestines are better-equipped to describe my existence and motivations than we are to do the same with a god. It follows that anyone who tries is most likely full of shiat and wants to use a scary monster story to get us to do something we wouldn't ordinarily do. The way every major religion has behaved in the last fifteen hundred years or so bears that out.
 
2012-08-15 09:13:04 AM  
So, because of ONE person, the school district is being sued. If they win, I would counter-sue the parent and the organization she hired. Maybe that would put a stop to this stupid crap.
 
2012-08-15 09:16:07 AM  

Muta: How repetitious and boring. Is this *really* the best Christian music has to offer?


No, those are lyrics. Music is made of sound, not text.
 
2012-08-15 09:18:44 AM  

Muta: editorial_distractions: We sang the entire Hallelujah chorus one year for xmas (public high school). It was very pretty, but kind of weirded me out. I mean...

(. . .)

King of kings, and Lord of lords,
King of kings, and Lord of lords,
And Lord of lords,
And He shall reign,
And He shall reign forever and ever,
King of kings, forever and ever,
And Lord of lords,
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!"

How repetitious and boring. Is this *really* the best Christian music has to offer? It should be excluded not because of the Christian theme but due to its lack of musical merit.


Actually, it is REALLY pretty when you hear the arrangement live repetition aside. (I'd search for a youtube vid, but I am too lazy). I was in a women's chorus, too, so we did a lot of madrigals, and those were the pseudo-religious songs I liked more. They were still religious, but not so overtly. Plus they weren't so familiar, so it was kind of cool.

ok, here ya go: Link
 
2012-08-15 09:23:44 AM  
If there's no sacred music in your Western music education you don't have a Western music education. I'd support including some music from around the world to round things out but it's hard enough to have a decent traditional music program.
/child of two music teachers
 
2012-08-15 09:28:10 AM  

Captain_Ballbeard: way south: Now, instead of destroying material, they try to make you believe its taboo so you'll hide it instead.

We also do this with slavery and wife beating, along with other Judaeo-Christian "values" best left at home.


If your implication that we are also hiding these issues is synonymous with "making kids take Black history in high school" then YES!
It's hidden in the textbooks that they refuse to study.

/The Christians weren't the only ones in on slavery, or wife beating for that matter.
/Banning kids from singing Hymns defiantly steps into "Lighten up, Francis" territory.
/Not like the media wont be blasting them into everyones brains twenty-four-farking-seven the entire holiday season.
 
2012-08-15 09:29:15 AM  

Flakeloaf: Mr. Right: The Freedom From Religion Foundation is a radical group of the same ilk as PETA. They fabricate offense where none exists. They would have us believe that a child singing the word God is predatory and will ruin the child.

Substitute Allah for God and give that one a whirl.


The Freedom From Religion Foundation would have absolutely no problem if school children were singing about Allah. It's one of the things that allows normal people to know that the FFRF is a radical group with a specific agenda having nothing to do with their innocuous sounding name.
 
2012-08-15 09:29:21 AM  

spidermilk: My friend is an elementary school music teacher. I went to her winter concert a few years back (she had just started teaching). They weren't allowed to do any religious songs or traditional christmas songs. They weren't even allowed to do Jingle Bells which sounds to me like it is just about running around in the snow.

They did this generic song about sledding and she told me she was worried they might get complaints because that was really pushing it. The reason they couldn't do any remotely winter songs wasn't atheists but Christian Scientists I think...


Who the hell would consider Jingle Bells to be offensive?
 
2012-08-15 09:29:28 AM  

edip1976: Ryan2065: I'm not against singing songs in school that are religious, but come on, you can't just put you prayers to music to get them in schools.

O RLY?

Would like a word with you...

[s17.postimage.org image 850x257]

I'm as solid a progressive/liberal as they come, but the majority of music that exists in human history is liturgical in nature. Can't deny it, can't whitewash it, can't pretend it doesn't exist. Just embrace it as part of our heritage. Context is everything. As long as it's not being taught as part of a religous lesson, the separation is there. If the teacher is using it to teach rondels or fugues, well then who cares!

/Support the Arts!


I did not realize that the only reason Mozart, Bach, Beethoven and Brahms composed their music was so teachers in the 21st century could sneak religion into schools.

They took a well known prayer that isn't generally a song, found a version with music, and are teaching that instead of teaching any number of other traditional children's songs. It is pretty clear what the intent is.
 
2012-08-15 09:29:46 AM  
When I was in grade school we were taught some of the Negro spirituals as part of a history of music and our country. But then we also did the PoA.

But I realize now when they taught us La Cucaracha they were indoctrinating us to accept the illegals in our future.
 
2012-08-15 09:31:19 AM  

SilentStrider: I actually have no problem with songs of this nature, provided they have the proper context.


Ditto. My choir teacher in high school actually addressed this very well. He basically said that pretty much the only music being written in periods like the Baroque was religious, so there was little choice. He wasn't teaching the religion, just the musical styles.
 
2012-08-15 09:31:58 AM  

Captain_Ballbeard: I didn't know that, as a Rush fan.


And you're complaining about the druggy deadheads!? It takes gobs of drugs to deal with the pseudointellectual dribble Rush cranks out. The trees are arguing over sunlight and the maples unionize. What kind of drugs does it take to find *that* deep?
 
2012-08-15 09:32:36 AM  

Flakeloaf: Dansker: slayer199: I'm also an agnostic (of course the atheists will end up hating more on us than the religious folk)

Since you bring it up, I just think you people are intellectually lazy and emotionally dishonest to yourselves, avoiding questions of belief with non sequiturs about proof. Otherwise fine people in general.
But nice bit of parenthetical, passive-aggressive self-victimization there.

Since you bring it up, thanks for the value judgment. You're welcome to believe what you believe.


Right back at you, and good luck with it. No sarcasm. And I hope you have a genuinely satisfying life, with many joyful moments.

If you thought the same, you'd accept what we believe too.

I accept that you have no proof of the existense or non-existense of gods. Neither do I or probably anybody else, and the vast majority of both believers and atheists will say exactly the same. That position is not special, and it doesn't really need its own label.

What I don't accept is that "I have no proof" is a valid and relevant response to the question "Do you belive in gods?", whether you're asked by someone else or yourself. Belief is a question of feelings, and regardless of your evidence, I'm sure that deep down somewhere, you know what you believe. But obviously, and I can't believe I have to stress this: You are free to think what you like.
 
2012-08-15 09:38:53 AM  
So...

no music history (Chant and Baroque were sponsored by the Catholic Church), no Bach, no Beethoven, no Handel, no Mozart, no spirituals (no black music history). Much of the Blues is out. No Gospel, no R&B.

Well, Tchaikovsky and Joplin are probably happy as spit.
 
2012-08-15 09:41:23 AM  

Mr. Right: The Freedom From Religion Foundation would have absolutely no problem if school children were singing about Allah.


They probably would.
 
2012-08-15 09:42:49 AM  

StrangeQ: Who the hell would consider Jingle Bells to be offensive?


That whole verse about the horse being lean and lank and getting into a drifted bank and the sleigh getting upset? Obvious animal abuse. Not to mention the fact that putting those jingle bells on a horse might scare it and cause a runaway. PETA and HSUS probably consider Jingle Bells to be hugely offensive.
 
2012-08-15 09:44:25 AM  
We are all impressed with the atheist groups who will spend millions purging Christianity from our schools, while simultaneously not donating a penny to those same schools...or any school.
 
2012-08-15 09:47:04 AM  

This text is now purple: So...

no music history (Chant and Baroque were sponsored by the Catholic Church), no Bach, no Beethoven, no Handel, no Mozart


Now that's going way, way too far. Bach, Beethoven et al. wrote plenty of secular music. The majority of all their works are instrumental, and operas rarely have religious themes.
 
2012-08-15 09:47:05 AM  

Mr. Right: StrangeQ: Who the hell would consider Jingle Bells to be offensive?

That whole verse about the horse being lean and lank and getting into a drifted bank and the sleigh getting upset? Obvious animal abuse. Not to mention the fact that putting those jingle bells on a horse might scare it and cause a runaway. PETA and HSUS probably consider Jingle Bells to be hugely offensive.


I was always bothered by the fact that the Joker got away. Hey!
 
2012-08-15 09:48:18 AM  

Somacandra: Do you know why no one sings Hanukkah songs in school? Not because they're Jewish. But because they read like Ronnie James Dio lyrics:

"To sever the towering cypress
sought the Aggagite, son of Hammedatha,
But it became [a snare and] a stumbling block to him
and his arrogance was stilled.
The head of the Benjaminite You lifted
and the enemy, his name You obliterated
His numerous progeny - his possessions -
on the gallows You hanged.

"Bare Your Holy arm
and hasten the End for salvation -
Avenge the vengeance of Your servants' blood
from the wicked nation.
For the triumph is too long delayed for us,
and there is no end to days of evil,
Repel the Red One in the nethermost shadow
and establish for us the seven shepherds."

[i.imgur.com image 300x334]


Wow. Ive been reading the bible just to get a better idea of whats going on and I actually understand what this song is talking about. Im edumucated now!
 
2012-08-15 09:51:00 AM  

Dansker:
What I don't accept is that "I have no proof" is a valid and relevant response to the question "Do you belive in gods?", whether you're asked by someone else or yourself. Belief is a question of feelings, and regardless of your evidence, I'm sure that deep down somewhere, you know what you believe. But obviously, and I can't believe I have to stress this: You are free to think what you like.


Internet High-Five! "Yes", "No" and "I don't know" are all valid answers. "I have no proof" is self-important theist-baiting.

editorial_distractions:
I was in a women's chorus, too, so we did a lot of madrigals


It's not every day you get to hear a real seventeenth-century madrigal. It's kinda like finger puppets.

/bird up your treeeeeeee
 
2012-08-15 09:51:36 AM  
Handel's "The Messiah" is about as religious a piece of music as one can find, but even as a pagan I have no problem with it.
It's fun and challenging to sing...and when you have a decent orchestra and a 100-voice choir who knows their business the "Hallelujah Chorus" and "Worthy is the Lamb/Sevenfold Amen" is better than sex.


/ OK, it depends on the sex
// still fun to sing
// especially during sex...
 
2012-08-15 09:52:17 AM  

Ryan2065: ecmoRandomNumbers: As a music teacher and an atheist...

This is farking stupid. Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.

Alright music teacher, exactly what lessons are the elementary school kids learning from a song with these lyrics that they couldn't get from any other number of children's songs?

Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
If I should die before I wake
I pray the Lord my soul to take
Keep me safe throughout the night
And wake me with the morning ligh

Hush little baby don't say a word
And never mind that noise you heard
It's just the beast under your bed
In your closet in your head t


FTFY
 
2012-08-15 09:53:29 AM  

Muta: Captain_Ballbeard: Muta: These lyrics are better without drugs since you'd miss some great symbolism and literary allusions.
The song uses an interesting scale and time signature. It is a very accessible song that can introduce students to this type of music.

What "type" of music? Druggies with minimal skills on their instruments, masturbating musically?

Music with time signatures other than 4/4 and scale other than a chromatic scale. There is more to music than the Dustin Bieber stuff you listen to. Sad you were never exposed to it.


Look, I'm fully capable of torturing a cat, too. I just have the integrity to not call it "music."
 
2012-08-15 09:53:34 AM  

Muta: Captain_Ballbeard: I didn't know that, as a Rush fan.

And you're complaining about the druggy deadheads!? It takes gobs of drugs to deal with the pseudointellectual dribble Rush cranks out. The trees are arguing over sunlight and the maples unionize. What kind of drugs does it take to find *that* deep?


We were talking time sigs.

Protip: Rush has done, I don't know, about 27 records since the song you reference.
 
2012-08-15 09:53:39 AM  
when i was in elementary school, just a few miles up the road from this one, we had to perform an entire chorale program based on the Noah story: 100% Chance Of Rain.

i wish there were some vocal atheists around then. that show sucked.
 
2012-08-15 09:54:31 AM  
My first drum teach made me play 5 over 7 like that was the std.
 
2012-08-15 09:56:43 AM  
I've yet to hear of a Christian priest/pastor/minister that would say a song praising God is not a prayer.
 
2012-08-15 09:58:41 AM  
Fox News: UNIONIZED TEACHERS FORCING AMERICAN CHILDREN TO SING ISLAMIC NASHEEDS!!!
 
2012-08-15 09:58:43 AM  

editorial_distractions:

"Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth.
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

For the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

The kingdom of this world
Is become the kingdom of our Lord,
And of His Christ, and of His Christ;
And He shall reign for ever and ever,
For ever and ever, forever and ever,

King of kings, and Lord of lords,
King of kings, and Lord of lords,
And Lord of lords,
And He shall reign,
And He shall reign forever and ever,
King of kings, forever and ever,
And Lord of lords,
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!"



i2.cdn.turner.com
 
2012-08-15 10:07:39 AM  

liverleef: ignite ice: I implore people with an open mind to read the article. The songs are being used as historical references. It's up to each individual student to decide how and what they take away from each song. Students are not being encouraged to interpret any of the songs as having religious meaning. They may have religious symbols of religious connotations in the lyrics, but they won't have a religious meaning to someone who isn't religious. I wish they did, but you don't see me writing to schools asking them to remove non-religious songs. Atheism failing to see the double standard here and I'm not surprised.
I read this and expected to read about militant atheists getting upset about songs that were in no way religious. I grew up in a religious household and these songs were always considered religious. He's got the whole world in his hands was one of the first songs we learned as kids at sunday school. If my kid went to this school I would be pissed.


Yes, they are religious songs. I'm not religious, haven't been to church since Sunday school, but you know what songs we learned way back in those days? We learned the Lord's Prayer (here set to music), He's got the Whole World in His Hands, and Michael Row Your Boat Ashore. In fact, these are about the ONLY religious songs I know, except for the ones that Johnny Cash sings.

The possibly-religious songs include "Thank You for the World So Sweet," which says "Thank you God for everything," "Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep," which says "I pray the Lord my soul to keep," "Michael Row your Boat Ashore" and "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands."

Somebody brought a hymnbook home from church and decided that the kids needed more of that.
 
2012-08-15 10:11:12 AM  

This text is now purple: Look, I'm fully capable of torturing a cat, too. I just have the integrity to not call it "music."


Another Rush/Geddy Lee fan.
 
2012-08-15 10:16:34 AM  

Dansker: This text is now purple: So...

no music history (Chant and Baroque were sponsored by the Catholic Church), no Bach, no Beethoven, no Handel, no Mozart

Now that's going way, way too far. Bach, Beethoven et al. wrote plenty of secular music. The majority of all their works are instrumental, and operas rarely have religious themes.


So for Bach, you've got what, the Brandenberg Concertos and that's it? The work that was never performed in his lifetime? Most of the rest of his life was spent in the employ of one church or another.

As for Beethoven, shame about the 9th -- you know, the anthem of Europe? First important choral symphony? Considered the greatest western music work, and possibly in the world? Shame about that passing reference to the gods in the chorus.
 
2012-08-15 10:17:41 AM  
"The whole point to being an atheist is not giving a crap!"
-atheist Adam Carolla on militant atheism
 
2012-08-15 10:20:05 AM  

Flakeloaf:
Internet High-Five! "Yes", "No" and "I don't know" are all valid answers. "I have no proof" is self-important theist-baiting.


*high-five*

Honestly, I still believe you know what you believe, believe it or not, but I can't leave a high-five hanging. I'm also feeling much too mellow to keep arguing about it, so I'll just have a beer and listen to the Brandenburgh Concertos. Cheers!
 
2012-08-15 10:20:20 AM  
Granted it has been 45 years but I do remember singing religious songs in public school. We sang everybody's songs. There were Catholic, Protestant and Jewish oriented songs along with some from religions I have long since forgotten about. I don't think there were any Islamic songs. I would have remembered that. And secular songs! We sang a lot of those. WTF is everybody's problem?

The Christians and non-affiliated could tear off a mean "Hava Nagila!"
 
2012-08-15 10:23:54 AM  

Dansker: Since you bring it up, I just think you people are intellectually lazy and emotionally dishonest to yourselves, avoiding questions of belief with non sequiturs about proof. Otherwise fine people in general.
But nice bit of parenthetical, passive-aggressive self-victimization there.


No, I'm just honest enough with myself to say I don't know. There's no proof of the existence of a supreme being, but that does not mean one does not exist. The question of a supreme being is inherently unknowable and unprovable based on current conditions. Some atheists are as bad as fundies...you have a belief that there isn't a supreme being but you also can't prove your position any more than a fundie can prove theirs. It's intellectually lazy to think otherwise.
 
2012-08-15 10:26:47 AM  
How can these groups claim to care about any children when by their own actions they are forcing school districts to divert already limited funds to defend against frivolous bullshiat like this?
 
2012-08-15 10:28:01 AM  
Yep, all public school music teachers deal with this nonsense at all times. This takes me back to the time when I was teaching high school band on Long Island...

Each year, all music teachers rotated responsibilities to include a song of Christian/Jewish/Kwanzaa (not that there are many of these!) origins within the rest of the concert repertoire. One asshat in the audience must have missed the Jewish song in the Choir's portion of the program one year, because his lawyer contacted the school and demanded we produce the last 20 years of concert programs to prove that we weren't being discriminatory. Before this jerk went away, he actually called my Performing Arts Administrator a nazi. My boss was Jewish.

/CSS
 
2012-08-15 10:37:40 AM  
I wonder if they'd be amenable to adding this to the play list?
 
2012-08-15 10:38:28 AM  

Dansker: What I don't accept is that "I have no proof" is a valid and relevant response to the question "Do you believe in gods?", whether you're asked by someone else or yourself. Belief is a question of feelings, and regardless of your evidence, I'm sure that deep down somewhere, you know what you believe. But obviously, and I can't believe I have to stress this: You are free to think what you like.


That's a different question. If you're asking "Do you believe in a supreme being?", the answer is difficult to quantify because I can't believe or disbelieve what I don't know. The answer to that question is probably easier to quantify if I answered like this: based on my current knowledge the answer is no, but I can't rule it out either.

f you're asking if I align with any religion (or atheism), the answer would be a definitive no. Why? Because those require belief or faith in the unprovable existence or non-existence of a god. If you're asking me if a supreme being exists, the answer is I don't know. The point is that I really have no feelings on the on "belief" of a supreme being because it's a question that I intellectually cannot answer.

Hope that clarifies things.
 
2012-08-15 10:38:36 AM  

This text is now purple: Dansker: This text is now purple: So...

no music history (Chant and Baroque were sponsored by the Catholic Church), no Bach, no Beethoven, no Handel, no Mozart

Now that's going way, way too far. Bach, Beethoven et al. wrote plenty of secular music. The majority of all their works are instrumental, and operas rarely have religious themes.

So for Bach, you've got what, the Brandenberg Concertos and that's it? The work that was never performed in his lifetime? Most of the rest of his life was spent in the employ of one church or another.

As for Beethoven, shame about the 9th -- you know, the anthem of Europe? First important choral symphony? Considered the greatest western music work, and possibly in the world? Shame about that passing reference to the gods in the chorus.


Bach wrote lots of stuff with no singing in it, including the best solo violin pieces until Beethoven's and the best organ music ever. His third partita is the piece I listen to the most. A lot of his important music was religious, though, even if he was pretty blatantly doing it for the paycheck.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any Beethoven religious references outside of the final movement of the 9th, but yeah, losing that would be a shame. He probably refers to religion in passing somewhere in Fidelio, but don't remember it well enough to confirm that.

However, the passing references to God (most of which Schiller wrote, not Beethoven) are just sort of a cultural artifact in the 9th; they aren't the point of the piece, and they serve a historical purpose, like Greek religion does. I doubt anyone would seriously try to erase all references to history and literature and poetry in music just to maintain ideological purity.

From what I can tell, that's not what the article is about, anyway. The problem there is that the music in question has no real purpose other than the practice of religion.

You can tell students to read (parts of) the Bible or Paradise Lost or the Divine Comedy or whatever. I read some of each of those in school (especially Dante), as well as most of the other big names. (My class even had to memorize some Goethe.) You just can't ask them to pray or do other things with no legitimate secular purpose.
 
2012-08-15 10:39:05 AM  
This is an issue because organized religion has chosen to make public schools their battleground of choice. Creationism has no place in school except maybe in a fiction literature course, but churches have attempted to ram it down the throats of schools for years. Now some schools have to refer to fairy tales in their SCIENCE class.

So maybe to some parents who actually want their kid to come out of school smarter than when they started, teaching religious songs to kids in their formative years sounds a lot like grooming. You could also call it recruiting, or proselytizing.

What happens if there are kids who come from families from another religion that don't want their kid singing songs about some god they don't worship?

Are schools teaching a middle/high school law or justice class featuring the rampant pedophilia and the systematic protection of offenders in the Catholic church? No? How about a study of the KKK? No? Is there a balanced approach to showing both sides of organized religion? No? Then get the religious bias out of elementary school.

The field of music is not so narrow that you can't fill a curriculum full of non religious songs. Take your kid to a damn church if you want them to sing god songs.
 
2012-08-15 10:42:05 AM  

This text is now purple: Dansker: This text is now purple: So...

no music history (Chant and Baroque were sponsored by the Catholic Church), no Bach, no Beethoven, no Handel, no Mozart

Now that's going way, way too far. Bach, Beethoven et al. wrote plenty of secular music. The majority of all their works are instrumental, and operas rarely have religious themes.

So for Bach, you've got what, the Brandenberg Concertos and that's it?


No, are you freaking kidding me? All his concertos, hundreds of opuses for lute, cello, string quartets... You know I'm talking about Johann Sebastian, right?

As for Beethoven, shame about the 9th -- you know, the anthem of Europe? First important choral symphony? Considered the greatest western music work, and possibly in the world? Shame about that passing reference to the gods in the chorus.

No, not really much of a shame. And the poem by Schiller is about human joy and togetherness, not religion. It merely uses imagiry from classical Greek mythology, as European culture often does. That doesn't make it anymore religious than me talking about my muse, or a psychologist talking about Narcissism or the Cassandra Syndrome

Now hush, you're spoiling the music and harshing my mellow.
 
2012-08-15 10:44:17 AM  

Rufus Lee King: I'd like to say again


Again.
 
2012-08-15 10:50:10 AM  
I did not go to church as a child. I sang Jesus-ey songs at Christmas. The school did not force me to follow any religion nor was it talked about much. Those are just the most popular songs we have in the country and they are pretty traditional fare.

The "get rid of all religious references" zealots need to relax.
 
2012-08-15 10:51:35 AM  

TiMthisIS: I did not go to church as a child. I sang Jesus-ey songs at Christmas. The school did not force me to follow any religion nor was it talked about much. Those are just the most popular songs we have in the country and they are pretty traditional fare.

The "get rid of all religious references" zealots need to relax.


If it's not a big deal to have them, it's also not a big deal to remove them.
 
2012-08-15 10:51:54 AM  

slayer199: Dansker: Since you bring it up, I just think you people are intellectually lazy and emotionally dishonest to yourselves, avoiding questions of belief with non sequiturs about proof. Otherwise fine people in general.
But nice bit of parenthetical, passive-aggressive self-victimization there.

No, I'm just honest enough with myself to say I don't know. There's no proof of the existence of a supreme being, but that does not mean one does not exist.


It doesn't mean that thousands of gods don't exist, but I bet you know whether you believe that or not.

The. question of a supreme being is inherently unknowable and unprovable based on current conditions.

How can you know that? You have no knowledge of the nature of gods.
Maybe they exist and are knowable.

Some atheists are as bad as fundies...you have a belief that there isn't a supreme being but you also can't prove your position any more than a fundie can prove theirs. It's intellectually lazy to think otherwise.

Practically nobody, atheist or otherwise, claims the ability to prove the existense or non-existense of gods
And I don't think it's honest to say you don't know what you believe. Now, seriously, this beer is NOT going to drink itself.
 
Displayed 50 of 260 comments


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | » | Newest | Show all


View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter






In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report