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(Fox News)   Yet another school district decides that it is in their best interest to waste a boat load of money losing a court battle. This time they want to keep religious songs in music class because it isn't really praying if you're singing   (foxnews.com) divider line 260
    More: Asinine, religious musics, school districts, Bill Donohue, New York City Department of Education, Freedom From Religion Foundation, summer break, atheists, sings  
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5481 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Aug 2012 at 5:18 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-14 11:52:00 PM
I implore people with an open mind to read the article. The songs are being used as historical references. It's up to each individual student to decide how and what they take away from each song. Students are not being encouraged to interpret any of the songs as having religious meaning. They may have religious symbols of religious connotations in the lyrics, but they won't have a religious meaning to someone who isn't religious. I wish they did, but you don't see me writing to schools asking them to remove non-religious songs. Atheism failing to see the double standard here and I'm not surprised.
 
2012-08-15 12:15:13 AM
I actually have no problem with songs of this nature, provided they have the proper context.
 
2012-08-15 12:20:53 AM
I work at a music store that is in the middle of hosting our annual new music reading clinic, and this came up in today's session, so I'm getting a big kick...

For whatever it's worth, I'm agnostic and it bothers me when a song sung in a school choir can't mention Jesus or even Santa (and many can't). There are LOADS of wonderful, historic works that get tossed completely aside and it does nothing to further music.

I think I've disagreed with Ignite Ice on things in the past, but in this case, I have to agree. There is too much that gets thrown out to the detriment of the student's education.

It's art, it's history, and it's important - lighten the fark up.
 
2012-08-15 12:45:37 AM
So are they going to require reading the bible as a historical document next?

Actually that might be fun.
 
2012-08-15 12:47:02 AM
Wait, since when was Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep a song? It's a prayer:

Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
And if I die before I wake
I pray the Lord my soul to take

I'm not against singing songs in school that are religious, but come on, you can't just put you prayers to music to get them in schools.
 
2012-08-15 12:53:37 AM
"He's Got The Whole World In His Hands" isn't a religious song, is it? I thought it was an Allstate Insurance jingle.
 
2012-08-15 12:55:57 AM
I'm shocked...SHOCKED that the Fox News story is short on details. Even though I'm the biggest atheist who ever atheisted, I do think that context is important. High school chorus kids can learn a LOT by singing Handel's Messiah. That's fine. Shoot, you could really impress me and perform Mozart's Requiem or the Ninth. If this school is putting together a program of Negro spirituals for Black History Month...fine.

However, this is an elementary school. I really don't think there's anything you can learn from "He's got the whole world in his hands" that you can't learn from any song that isn't referring to a specific deity.

And Billy Donahue, King of Fake Outrage, please stop patronizing us by claiming that "Michael, Row Your Boat Ashore" doesn't refer to a specific deity.
 
2012-08-15 01:02:35 AM
I'm about as atheist as it gets, and I have no problem with religious songs being used in music class and for chorus / choir / etc. When I was in varsity choir in High School, I remember we sang a really nice version of "All God's Children Got Shoes" or whatever the actual title is. It was fun.

At a high school I worked at in Tokyo, their music club did an AMAZING version of "Deep River" and a pretty good job with "Soon Ah Will Be Done". Not a one of those students was Christian.

You can enjoy the music without believing the message.

In this case, are the teachers making the students sing these songs in order to praise their deity? Or are they just singing them because they are traditional, generally easy to arrange, and fairly well known? The former is a problem. The latter is not.
 
2012-08-15 01:20:19 AM
As a music teacher and an atheist...

This is farking stupid. Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.
 
2012-08-15 01:51:51 AM

ecmoRandomNumbers: As a music teacher and an atheist...

This is farking stupid. Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.


Alright music teacher, exactly what lessons are the elementary school kids learning from a song with these lyrics that they couldn't get from any other number of children's songs?

Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
If I should die before I wake
I pray the Lord my soul to take
Keep me safe throughout the night
And wake me with the morning light
 
2012-08-15 01:52:36 AM

ecmoRandomNumbers: As a music teacher and an atheist...

This is farking stupid. Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.


As an appreciator of music and an atheist, I completely agree. This shiat is bananas, B-A-N-A-N-A-S.

/I never said I appreciated good music
 
2012-08-15 01:59:45 AM

Ryan2065: ecmoRandomNumbers: As a music teacher and an atheist...

This is farking stupid. Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.

Alright music teacher, exactly what lessons are the elementary school kids learning from a song with these lyrics that they couldn't get from any other number of children's songs?

Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
If I should die before I wake
I pray the Lord my soul to take
Keep me safe throughout the night
And wake me with the morning light


Maybe they're performing the John Cage arrangement.
 
2012-08-15 02:12:11 AM

SilentStrider: I actually have no problem with songs of this nature, provided they have the proper context.


so the psalms are all songs. you have no problem with them being song in school?
The problem is that the slope slides. The protestants have been using this "we are an xian nation" to repress everyone else since pretty much day one. FFS, they tried to ban catholic schools??? LOL

So yah, the pendulum has been swinging slowly and ponderously in the direction of separate church and state. State schools? no church.

yes, there is history, music and art. which require mentioning religion and its place in both of them.
and to some degree, these people are just being lazy, rather than trying to brain wash the minions.

but kids who regret xian, should be allowed to opt out right? LOL
automatic A's in music if they dont want to sing the song praising satan, I mean jesus, I mean ...

bah
you would think by now we would be a little further along with this silliness.
 
2012-08-15 02:14:10 AM

miss diminutive: ecmoRandomNumbers: As a music teacher and an atheist...

This is farking stupid. Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.

As an appreciator of music and an atheist, I completely agree. This shiat is bananas, B-A-N-A-N-A-S.

/I never said I appreciated good music


toss in art and history.
so much is COMPLETELY intertwining with religion. which isnt the same as we should be teaching religion in school .....

it isnt like they cant find a billion kid songs, right?
But if the goal is teaching history, it could be argued that all religion be excluded until their little maggot brains are more developed.

sigh
 
2012-08-15 02:17:57 AM
There is a huge difference between Handel Messiah or Coltrane's A Love Supreme and whatever crap some Christian Rock group put out.

Teaching the former is fine, the latter is indoctrination. I just don't know where that line is.
 
2012-08-15 02:25:32 AM

EvilEgg: There is a huge difference between Handel Messiah or Coltrane's A Love Supreme and whatever crap some Christian Rock group put out.

Teaching the former is fine, the latter is indoctrination. I just don't know where that line is.


You know what, I wouldn't mind if some elementary school wanted to have their chorus sing the beautiful songs of Faith + 1:

buttonpushingmonkey.files.wordpress.com

"I need you in my life, Jesus
I can't live without you, Jesus.
And I just want to feel you deep inside me, Jesus."

"The body of Christ, sleek swimmer's body all muscled up and toned...
The body of Christ, oh, what a body, I wish I could call it my own..."

"I want to get down on my knees and start pleasing Jesus.
I wanna feel his salvation all over my face..."
 
2012-08-15 03:12:51 AM

ecmoRandomNumbers: Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.


Agreed. There are far more serious church/state entanglement problems than this.

The school should add on Leonard Cohen's "Halleluia" for teh lulz.
 
2012-08-15 03:18:51 AM
Do you know why no one sings Hanukkah songs in school? Not because they're Jewish. But because they read like Ronnie James Dio lyrics:

"To sever the towering cypress
sought the Aggagite, son of Hammedatha,
But it became [a snare and] a stumbling block to him
and his arrogance was stilled.
The head of the Benjaminite You lifted
and the enemy, his name You obliterated
His numerous progeny - his possessions -
on the gallows You hanged.


"Bare Your Holy arm
and hasten the End for salvation -
Avenge the vengeance of Your servants' blood
from the wicked nation.
For the triumph is too long delayed for us,
and there is no end to days of evil,
Repel the Red One in the nethermost shadow
and establish for us the seven shepherds.
"

i.imgur.com
 
2012-08-15 03:26:10 AM

BarkingUnicorn: "He's Got The Whole World In His Hands" isn't a religious song, is it? I thought it was an Allstate Insurance jingle.


i6.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-15 04:28:27 AM

Somacandra: Do you know why no one sings Hanukkah songs in school? Not because they're Jewish. But because they read like Ronnie James Dio lyrics:


Check out this rockin' Mormon song. It's awesome because they're singing about going to a different planet. And the last several verses are extremely brainwashy.

1. If you could hie to Kolob
In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward
With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning,
Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation,
Where Gods and matter end?
Methinks the Spirit whispers,
"No man has found 'pure space,'
Nor seen the outside curtains,
Where nothing has a place."

3. The works of God continue,
And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression
Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter;
There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit;
There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;
There is no end to might;
There is no end to wisdom;
There is no end to light.
There is no end to union;
There is no end to youth;
There is no end to priesthood;
There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.
There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.
 
2012-08-15 05:28:52 AM
www.whydontyou.org.uk
 
2012-08-15 05:29:35 AM

gimmegimme: I'm shocked...SHOCKED that the Fox News story is short on details. Even though I'm the biggest atheist who ever atheisted, I do think that context is important. High school chorus kids can learn a LOT by singing Handel's Messiah. That's fine. Shoot, you could really impress me and perform Mozart's Requiem or the Ninth. If this school is putting together a program of Negro spirituals for Black History Month...fine.

However, this is an elementary school. I really don't think there's anything you can learn from "He's got the whole world in his hands" that you can't learn from any song that isn't referring to a specific deity.

And Billy Donahue, King of Fake Outrage, please stop patronizing us by claiming that "Michael, Row Your Boat Ashore" doesn't refer to a specific deity.


I went to a public high school and was in the choir for years. We sang everything imaginable: Negro spirituals, chamber music, classics (including Mozart's Requiem in NYC and Handel's Messiah), even modern rock and pop stuff.

It was hugely interesting to me, and it still is. Choir was fun and educational, and it gave me more opportunities than I could have hoped for. I'm agnostic, but I liked the religious music because it made me think. Plus singing stuff correctly always makes part of my brain tingle.

/I'm white, and my choir director was black
//I miss choir
 
2012-08-15 05:35:08 AM

gimmegimme: I'm shocked...SHOCKED that the Fox News story is short on details. Even though I'm the biggest atheist who ever atheisted, I do think that context is important. High school chorus kids can learn a LOT by singing Handel's Messiah. That's fine. Shoot, you could really impress me and perform Mozart's Requiem or the Ninth. If this school is putting together a program of Negro spirituals for Black History Month...fine.

However, this is an elementary school. I really don't think there's anything you can learn from "He's got the whole world in his hands" that you can't learn from any song that isn't referring to a specific deity.

And Billy Donahue, King of Fake Outrage, please stop patronizing us by claiming that "Michael, Row Your Boat Ashore" doesn't refer to a specific deity.


He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got the sun and the rain in His hands,
He's got the moon and the stars in His hands,
He's got the wind and the clouds in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got the rivers and the mountains in His hands,
He's got the oceans and the seas in His hands,
He's got you and he's got me in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got everybody here in His hands,
He's got everybody there in His hands,
He's got everybody everywhere in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.


Where is the specific diety you speak of? Couldnt they be talking about Lord Obama himself?
 
2012-08-15 05:37:21 AM
heck, why not just bankrupt every school district in america and we won't have to worry about our petty differences anymore. it will be all pork & beans with the kids at home all day playing Sega and drinking goofy juice.

perhaps changes need to be made here and there, that is life, that is progress. making lawyers wealthy is not the route to go.
 
2012-08-15 05:37:36 AM
I am an atheist and I have no problem with religious songs in schools. They aren't going to affect the kids any more then singing Folsom Prison Blues will make you 'shoot a man in Reno, just to watch him die'.
 
2012-08-15 05:38:59 AM
(Shrug) All they have to do is include songs from other faiths. But you know what? Something tells me that ain't happenin'.
 
2012-08-15 05:46:18 AM

gimmegimme: Somacandra: Do you know why no one sings Hanukkah songs in school? Not because they're Jewish. But because they read like Ronnie James Dio lyrics:

Check out this rockin' Mormon song. It's awesome because they're singing about going to a different planet. And the last several verses are extremely brainwashy.

1. If you could hie to Kolob
In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward
With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning,
Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation,
Where Gods and matter end?
Methinks the Spirit whispers,
"No man has found 'pure space,'
Nor seen the outside curtains,
Where nothing has a place."

3. The works of God continue,
And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression
Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter;
There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit;
There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;
There is no end to might;
There is no end to wisdom;
There is no end to light.
There is no end to union;
There is no end to youth;
There is no end to priesthood;
There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.
There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.


Aren't there any songs for Scientology?

Hey, weird- THERE AREN'T. No hymns, "faith" music, or droning prayer songs. Unless they're secret, which I guess is plausible. But usually something like this leaks, sooner or later.

There's one weird Canadian Scientology video called "We Stand Tall", but this seems like a release for external use, not something the members themselves sing. And the church doesn't seem to be endorsing it, like it was made by a contracting ad firm, the church hammered it away, yet a copy exists.
 
2012-08-15 05:49:38 AM

Rufus Lee King: Really, though, when, for instance, are hymnals going to become illegal? Going to have to burn them all!

[fcit.usf.edu image 471x375]


Why are you posting pictures of the Good, Christian reaction to everything they disagree with?
 
2012-08-15 05:49:55 AM
You can't teach classical choral music without including religious works in Latin. If the kid can't speak Latin what's the issue with indoctrination? Granted, my musical education was far too Eurocentric due to overemphasizing such music from 6th grade on, but that's a different issue.
 
2012-08-15 05:51:33 AM
I'm sure no matter what happens, FOX NEWS is going to help pick up the tab for the school district. That way, it will not be responsible for causing the school district's debt in the first place.

FOX NEWS is the reason Americans hate Americans. Not the "liberal media," FOX NEWS.
 
2012-08-15 05:53:19 AM

EvilEgg: There is a huge difference between Handel Messiah or Coltrane's A Love Supreme and whatever crap some Christian Rock group put out.

Teaching the former is fine, the latter is indoctrination. I just don't know where that line is.


Wherever some permenently butt-hurt whining parent or FOX NEWS says, clearly. Screw education, we're out to prove our viewpoint is the only viewpoint.
 
2012-08-15 05:54:17 AM

ignite ice: I implore people with an open mind to read the article. The songs are being used as historical references. It's up to each individual student to decide how and what they take away from each song. Students are not being encouraged to interpret any of the songs as having religious meaning. They may have religious symbols of religious connotations in the lyrics, but they won't have a religious meaning to someone who isn't religious. I wish they did, but you don't see me writing to schools asking them to remove non-religious songs. Atheism failing to see the double standard here and I'm not surprised.


I implore people to shut the hell off FOX NEWS and think for themselves. No matter what, they're lying. Every time.
 
2012-08-15 05:58:11 AM

gimmegimme: Ryan2065: ecmoRandomNumbers: As a music teacher and an atheist...

This is farking stupid. Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.

Alright music teacher, exactly what lessons are the elementary school kids learning from a song with these lyrics that they couldn't get from any other number of children's songs?

Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
If I should die before I wake
I pray the Lord my soul to take
Keep me safe throughout the night
And wake me with the morning light

Maybe they're performing the John Cage arrangement.


The 609-year version?
 
2012-08-15 06:00:46 AM
If it's not a big deal to have them, it's also not a big deal to remove them.
 
2012-08-15 06:01:08 AM

gimmegimme: Somacandra: Do you know why no one sings Hanukkah songs in school? Not because they're Jewish. But because they read like Ronnie James Dio lyrics:

Check out this rockin' Mormon song. It's awesome because they're singing about going to a different planet. And the last several verses are extremely brainwashy.

1. If you could hie to Kolob
In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward
With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning,
Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation,
Where Gods and matter end?
Methinks the Spirit whispers,
"No man has found 'pure space,'
Nor seen the outside curtains,
Where nothing has a place."

3. The works of God continue,
And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression
Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter;
There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit;
There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;
There is no end to might;
There is no end to wisdom;
There is no end to light.
There is no end to union;
There is no end to youth;
There is no end to priesthood;
There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.
There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.


Burma-Shave!
 
2012-08-15 06:02:10 AM

ignite ice: I implore people with an open mind to read the article. The songs are being used as historical references. It's up to each individual student to decide how and what they take away from each song. Students are not being encouraged to interpret any of the songs as having religious meaning. They may have religious symbols of religious connotations in the lyrics, but they won't have a religious meaning to someone who isn't religious. I wish they did, but you don't see me writing to schools asking them to remove non-religious songs. Atheism failing to see the double standard here and I'm not surprised.


They fail to see a lot.
 
2012-08-15 06:03:38 AM

Man On Pink Corner: (Shrug) All they have to do is include songs from other faiths. But you know what? Something tells me that ain't happenin'.


Well now, all those other religious songs? Yeah, those ain't all historical-like.
 
2012-08-15 06:05:16 AM
So include a couple of Satanic ditties. If they're still good with it, they're fine.
 
2012-08-15 06:08:07 AM

MinkeyMan: I am an atheist and I have no problem with religious songs in schools. They aren't going to affect the kids any more then singing Folsom Prison Blues will make you 'shoot a man in Reno, just to watch him die'.


I'm shooting a man in Reno right now so I'm getting a kick out of...

/ No, not really.

/ It's actually New Braunfels.
 
2012-08-15 06:11:30 AM
Yet another atheist group gets its overly-sensitive panties in a wad over something that is really no big deal.
 
2012-08-15 06:13:34 AM

Cybernetic: Yet another atheist group gets its overly-sensitive panties in a wad over something that is really no big deal.


If it's not a big deal to keep, it's not a big deal to remove.
 
2012-08-15 06:14:37 AM

gimmegimme: Maybe they're performing the John Cage arrangement.


Now that's funny right there
 
2012-08-15 06:15:05 AM

SkunkWerks: Man On Pink Corner: (Shrug) All they have to do is include songs from other faiths. But you know what? Something tells me that ain't happenin'.

Well now, all those other religious songs? Yeah, those ain't all historical-like.


Which songs would they be?

I mean, surely this isn't a straw man you're knocking down, right?
 
2012-08-15 06:17:42 AM

I sound fat: gimmegimme: I'm shocked...SHOCKED that the Fox News story is short on details. Even though I'm the biggest atheist who ever atheisted, I do think that context is important. High school chorus kids can learn a LOT by singing Handel's Messiah. That's fine. Shoot, you could really impress me and perform Mozart's Requiem or the Ninth. If this school is putting together a program of Negro spirituals for Black History Month...fine.

However, this is an elementary school. I really don't think there's anything you can learn from "He's got the whole world in his hands" that you can't learn from any song that isn't referring to a specific deity.

And Billy Donahue, King of Fake Outrage, please stop patronizing us by claiming that "Michael, Row Your Boat Ashore" doesn't refer to a specific deity.

He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got the sun and the rain in His hands,
He's got the moon and the stars in His hands,
He's got the wind and the clouds in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got the rivers and the mountains in His hands,
He's got the oceans and the seas in His hands,
He's got you and he's got me in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got everybody here in His hands,
He's got everybody there in His hands,
He's got everybody everywhere in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.


Where is the specific diety you speak of? Couldnt they be talking about Lord Obama himself?


Only one entity has the personal and possessive pronouns capitalised in English. I think we both know which entity that is.
 
2012-08-15 06:18:54 AM
Strange how all of these 'educational' songs never seem to educate kids using songs that promote any other religion except Christianity.

As usual, if it's just about education let's see what happens if we start singing songs about Allah, and watch the reaction.
 
2012-08-15 06:20:10 AM
I'd like to ask Mr. Donohue "What if it were songs praising or mentioning the Devil, Buddha, or some pagan deity and the school made the same claim of the songs being educational?"
 
2012-08-15 06:20:53 AM
I remember a framed cross-stitch thing hanging on the wall of my Sunday school room that read "He who sings prays twice." So... I guess even if you sing half a bar you're technically praying. According to.. cross stitchers.
 
2012-08-15 06:21:42 AM
Now I am the last person to champion "religion in schools" if that is what this is. But really, THIS:

"This is not minor. It's predatory to conduct this toward a young, captive audience who would be truant if they didn't attend public school," Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the Freedom from Religion Foundation, told FoxNews.com.

made me think more of a PETA freak attacking the teaching of "The Itsy-Bitsy Spider" than a reasoned complaint against religion in schools. At this rate, the anti-religion people will be banning high school productions of "Godspell" (not that that would be bad, but for different reasons) and "Jesus Christ Superstar," and with about as much foundation.

Sometimes you have to say, paraphrasing Freud, that a song is just a song.
 
2012-08-15 06:25:35 AM
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
 
2012-08-15 06:25:57 AM

shoegaze99: Which songs would they be?

I mean, surely this isn't a straw man you're knocking down, right?


Surely you're not this stupid, right?
 
2012-08-15 06:27:34 AM

Rufus Lee King: ...that we have not been instructed to believe or express


...you mean 'instructed', like at school, right?
 
2012-08-15 06:36:09 AM

SkunkWerks: shoegaze99: Which songs would they be?

I mean, surely this isn't a straw man you're knocking down, right?

Surely you're not this stupid, right?


Yes, music exists for many, many faiths. This isn't a grand revelation.

Again, which songs are the school overlooking? Surely you have some important songs in mind that would be right for a western elementary school class, right? Clearly you have something specific in mind.
 
2012-08-15 06:41:26 AM

shoegaze99: Again, which songs are the school overlooking?


Surely you're not this stupid, right?

shoegaze99: ...that would be right for a western elementary school class, right?


Ah, I see you are.

shoegaze99: Clearly you have something specific in mind.


I have to have something specific in mind? The claim that we should rush to substantiate the existence of these in schools is based on the notion that they are "of historical value".

Not of "American historical value".

Not even of "Western historical value".

...and I learned world history when I was in K-8. Not really sure what you're taking issue with here, except perhaps that, when you strip away all the BS from this claim, it leaves you with little other choice than to conclude that "historical value" isn't really the motivation here.

Paint yourselves into the corner more. I find it hilarious.
 
2012-08-15 06:43:26 AM
Not worth getting one's panties in a bunch, but anything that pisses off Bill Donohue is a worthwhile endeavor.
 
2012-08-15 06:45:05 AM
Up until the late Classical -early Romantic period, the history of Western vocal music is, pretty much, church music. Very little else exists. To deprive junior high and high school choirs of that historical treasury of great music would be a huge disservice to students.

Much of the historical black American music is spiritual. Likewise, there is a great treasury of music contained in spirituals that should be taught.

A great deal of modern music, either religious or secular, is absolute crap but it is what students are often reduced to if all religious music is banned from public schools.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation is a radical group of the same ilk as PETA. They fabricate offense where none exists. They would have us believe that a child singing the word God is predatory and will ruin the child. But listening to rap music where women are denigrated and treated as worthless objects; where killing is condoned - that will have no effect on them and should be permitted.
 
2012-08-15 06:49:04 AM

Rufus Lee King: Really, though, when, for instance, are hymnals going to become illegal? Going to have to burn them all!

[fcit.usf.edu image 471x375]


Book burning was before they invented political correctness.
Now, instead of destroying material, they try to make you believe its taboo so you'll hide it instead.

/With the history of music and religion so deeply intertwined, one wonders how this even became a case.
/Separation of church and state was to keep the pope from becoming a legislator, not to ban all mention of religion.
 
2012-08-15 06:49:58 AM
Selections include Stone the Whore and Michael, Dash that Goy Baby Head On a Rock.
 
2012-08-15 06:51:38 AM

way south: Now, instead of destroying material, they try to make you believe its taboo so you'll hide it instead.


We also do this with slavery and wife beating, along with other Judaeo-Christian "values" best left at home.
 
2012-08-15 06:51:39 AM

ignite ice: [...] Students are not being encouraged to interpret any of the songs as having religious meaning. They may have religious symbols of religious connotations in the lyrics, but they won't have a religious meaning to someone who isn't religious. [...].


Well, so far, a cursory Googling turns up one set of lyrics to "Thank You For The World So Sweet:"

Thank you God for the world so sweet,
Thank you God for the food we eat,
Thank you God for the birds that sing,
Thank you God for everything.

That's it.

Well, it's not always it - some sources show a last line of "Amen."

So it's not really something that a non-religious person could see another, broader message in. The whole shebang is "A single God exists and made everything and we're thanking him for it."

I was at least agnostic even as a kid (for which my classmates tried to get me sent to the Principal's office once, amusingly enough), but I still loved singing "Children, Go Where I Send Thee" with all the hand motions, "Go Tell It On The Mountain," and "O Come All Ye Faithful." They just sounded neat.

And I'm no fan of censorship in general - it cramped my style when somebody's stupid mom kept us from singing "American Pie" in 6th grade because she couldn't stop clutching her pearls at the "We saw Satan laughing with delight" line.

Buuuuuut.... I'd never heard of this song until this article. I'm not finding any particular historical relevance. It doesn't seem to be an old spiritual or a carol, just a twee little prayer that somebody set to music sometime. And unless it has some killer harmonies, or is some kind of complex and elaborate round, I'm sorta lost on what it's even going to teach.
 
2012-08-15 06:51:47 AM
Unless the school's music program is exceptionally well-funded, the kids aren't going to be good enough at singing to attempt Messiah or a Requiem until high school. Everyone who pursues voice training encounters religious music at that point, of course, because it's good music.

I can see where kids could be introduced to some of this music at some point. Listening to Verdi or Handel or Bach is healthy, and it is moreso at that age when kids need to develop an appreciation for art. Making them try to sing complicated music, though, is a tall order.

Bedtime prayers set to sing-song melodies? No academic value whatsoever. Find something better.
 
2012-08-15 06:55:10 AM

fusillade762: So are they going to require reading the bible as a historical document next?

Actually that might be fun.


Actually, I did in 10th grade English- a couple of stories anyway. Then we actually dissected them as historical literature, without getting stupid about it. I agree that music is the same way; there are tons of religious songs, or songs that invoke god, that are just great songs. And if you want to be well educated in music, especially western music, you need to learn them. One of my favorite pieces of music was mozart's requiem. We sang it in Latin. I wasn't required to believe in it, just learn and sing it.
 
2012-08-15 06:56:43 AM

NetOwl: Everyone who pursues voice training encounters religious music at that point, of course, because it's good music.


The majority of exposed penises in western art belong to the baby Jesus.

Not really disputing your claim, it's actually spot on. Most of your big art-pushes throughout history were of a religious nature. Artists need an income after all, and it's usually your religious institutions which had the capital to dole out for such commissions... assuming the pieces weren't works of pure devotion, which they often were as much.

Just a fun fact.
 
2012-08-15 07:00:31 AM
My love for Jeebus
I hope I can preserve it
Though it displease us
Kids with cancer do deserve it

Oh Exalted one
That we cannot see
We know you're there
Every time we have to pee
 
2012-08-15 07:00:58 AM
Atheist with little concern for religious music which has cultural, historical, or educational significance. Not knowing exactly how the songs mentioned in the article are taught and used but knowing each of them, I find this difficult to believe the songs are anything more than fond pieces the choir director thought to teach with the school now willing to fight over basically nothing for religious rationale.
 
2012-08-15 07:01:36 AM

Mr. Right: Up until the late Classical -early Romantic period, the history of Western vocal music is, pretty much, church music. Very little else exists. To deprive junior high and high school choirs of that historical treasury of great music would be a huge disservice to students.


If you honestly care only about "historical treasury" then I would expect you to be campaigning for the inclusion of muslim hymns. If, instead, people focus on christian music praising cristian deities and peddling christian doctrine then that obviously has nothing to do with music.
 
2012-08-15 07:02:06 AM
Without kumbaya, there would be no drum circles.

I hope.
 
2012-08-15 07:04:37 AM

NetOwl: Everyone who pursues voice training encounters religious music at that point, of course, because it's good music.


Just because the Church had a stranglehold on art for so very long doesn't mean we should venerate those works, not while better music (and its composers) was being put to the flame nearby.
 
2012-08-15 07:04:54 AM

Charlie Freak: There is too much that gets thrown out to the detriment of the student's education.


THIS THIS THIS THIS

I am not Christian, but I love teaching the Bible as literature to my students. 99% have never really read it other than the spoon-fed stories they get in Sunday School. People need to lighten up on all sides.
 
2012-08-15 07:05:23 AM

Rufus Lee King: See, if you turn this 180 degrees, this is the sort of thing you get:

[www.thecv35.com image 400x300]


I didn't expect that.
 
2012-08-15 07:08:02 AM
Are we going to ban religious art from study in art history classes, too?
 
2012-08-15 07:11:28 AM
Speaking as an avowed atheist, the Freedom From Religion foundation really, really needs to hire someone to help them pick their damned battles. Knowing the other shiat the group has been manufacturing outrage over, I doubt fox particularly had to spin this one, it was probably retarded to begin with.

The vast, vast majority of musical movements are rooted in cultural tradition or politics, that means religion is going to pop up all the time. Getting your panties in a wad over certain period songs referencing God is akin to being upset that songs by Bob Dylan reference drugs and are really down on religion. Everything that references religion isn't necessarily religious in nature itself or even _about_ religion, and singing a religious song doesn't require that you actually worship the invisible pink unicorn in question any more than me humming a Charlie Daniels tune obligates me to start a fight with a transvestite in a gay bar and then flee from the cops across a state line at 110 mph while downing a bottle of whiskey*.

*Obviously the silliest reference I could think of, so in a way it's hyperbole, but in my defense this describes the plot of a certain Daniels song quite accurately.

//Or I guess I could stick with the Dylan thing, but a consistent Dylan reference just seems... wrong.
 
2012-08-15 07:11:28 AM
A little over a decade ago in my school choir, and we had a lot of Jewish kids in our program, we sang Mendelssohn's Hallelujah. The whole movement from beginning to end, not just the one really famous bit. Considering we were also a competition choir probably kept any atheist parents from complaining because "ooo! Trophies!" It was usually the Classical religious pieces that got us further in scoring.

/bonus, we went to Carnegie Hall singing all of Bernstein's Chichester Psalms, a very Jewish movement of devotional music
 
2012-08-15 07:16:54 AM

Charlie Freak: It's art, it's history, and it's important - lighten the fark up.


I agree but with that said...
had religious nutbags not been fighting tooth and nail to get prayer into schools people would be less skeptical about the motives behind singing songs with religious themes in schools.
 
2012-08-15 07:18:56 AM
I'm ok with a big bunch of bullies...I mean lawyers threatening these nearly bankrupt school districts to purge even the slightest Christian reference and all non commercial holidays and events. I think big money from outside groups or even out of state groups should constantly threaten schools, those who run it and those vile teachers to conform, go bankrupt or get out!
 
2012-08-15 07:21:44 AM

KatjaMouse: A little over a decade ago in my school choir, and we had a lot of Jewish kids in our program, we sang Mendelssohn's Hallelujah. The whole movement from beginning to end, not just the one really famous bit. Considering we were also a competition choir probably kept any atheist parents from complaining because "ooo! Trophies!" It was usually the Classical religious pieces that got us further in scoring.

/bonus, we went to Carnegie Hall singing all of Bernstein's Chichester Psalms, a very Jewish movement of devotional music


I played "The Lord's Prayer" at the Meyerson Symphony Center with the Dallas Symphony while in high school and I didn't burst into flames.
 
2012-08-15 07:24:38 AM

Jim_Callahan: Speaking as an avowed atheist, the Freedom From Religion foundation really, really needs to hire someone to help them pick their damned battles.


They're not the ones who started the battle. The Freedom From Religion Foundatation wouldn't exists had religous nutbags not been trying to push thier fiction based beliefs into every part of American life.
 
2012-08-15 07:24:41 AM

Charlie Freak: For whatever it's worth, I'm agnostic and it bothers me when a song sung in a school choir can't mention Jesus or even Santa (and many can't). There are LOADS of wonderful, historic works that get tossed completely aside and it does nothing to further music.


As a non-Christian, I find it to be extremely insulting to be inundated every winter with songs about Frosty the Snowman and a reindeer with a genetic defect. There Christmas songs. I know they're Christmas songs; you know they're Christmas songs. Can we drop the pretense and have something with some artistic merit like "Angels We Have Heard On High," rather than something that makes me want to bash my ears with a hammer every time I hear it?
 
2012-08-15 07:25:33 AM
Who would've thought it wasn't really about a dragon, huh?
 
2012-08-15 07:25:54 AM
I don't know any Muslim songs except Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, and Allah only shows up there as the other reindeer who used to laugh and call him names.
 
2012-08-15 07:28:27 AM

Ryan2065: Wait, since when was Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep a song? It's a prayer:

Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
And if I die before I wake
I pray the Lord my soul to take

I'm not against singing songs in school that are religious, but come on, you can't just put you prayers to music to get them in schools.


So Metallica is banned too?
 
2012-08-15 07:28:38 AM
It was singing "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the bible tells me so" at school which made me realise that religion is a load of self-referential crap. I was six at the time. Nice work, school music teacher.

/Seriously.
 
2012-08-15 07:28:39 AM

maggoo: Mr. Right: Up until the late Classical -early Romantic period, the history of Western vocal music is, pretty much, church music. Very little else exists. To deprive junior high and high school choirs of that historical treasury of great music would be a huge disservice to students.

If you honestly care only about "historical treasury" then I would expect you to be campaigning for the inclusion of muslim hymns. If, instead, people focus on christian music praising cristian deities and peddling christian doctrine then that obviously has nothing to do with music.


Muslim music is not considered Western. There is a vast treasury of non-Western music but it is relatively rare in this country. There are probably not a handful of music educators in this country conversant enough with non-Western music to even know much about it, let alone teach it.
 
2012-08-15 07:29:08 AM
The possibly-religious songs include "Thank You for the World So Sweet," which says "Thank you God for everything," "Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep," which says "I pray the Lord my soul to keep," "Michael Row your Boat Ashore" and "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands."

Well, to be fair, "Enter Sandman" has those lyrics, too.
 
2012-08-15 07:30:06 AM

Muta: had religious nutbags not been fighting tooth and nail to get prayer into schools people would be less skeptical about the motives behind singing songs with religious themes in schools.


Meh, as mentioned, the FFR Foundation are pretty much religious nutbags, too, they're just bizarro world religious nutbags.

99.99999% of the time the "atheism is a religion" thing is complete bullshiat, but the FFR guys tend to behave, at minimum, like something of a cult, they're waaaay too obsessed with the importance of arbitrary symbols to really be called properly atheist. Antitheist, maybe.

//As always, I'm more annoyed by stupid when it's on "my side". I expect people that disagree with me (religious people, in this case) to be stupid, because that's something you prepare for emotionally when you disagree with someone. But this kind of shiat gets under my skin almost as bad as the "summer is hot, this proves global warming" idiots.
 
2012-08-15 07:31:56 AM

I_Can't_Believe_it's_not_Boutros: I don't know any Muslim songs except Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer


Blues for Allah would be a great tune for a school chorus.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-08-15 07:32:19 AM

Jim_Callahan: Speaking as an avowed atheist, the Freedom From Religion foundation really, really needs to hire someone to help them pick their damned battles. Knowing the other shiat the group has been manufacturing outrage over, I doubt fox particularly had to spin this one, it was probably retarded to begin with.

The vast, vast majority of musical movements are rooted in cultural tradition or politics, that means religion is going to pop up all the time. Getting your panties in a wad over certain period songs referencing God is akin to being upset that songs by Bob Dylan reference drugs and are really down on religion. Everything that references religion isn't necessarily religious in nature itself or even _about_ religion, and singing a religious song doesn't require that you actually worship the invisible pink unicorn in question any more than me humming a Charlie Daniels tune obligates me to start a fight with a transvestite in a gay bar and then flee from the cops across a state line at 110 mph while downing a bottle of whiskey*.

*Obviously the silliest reference I could think of, so in a way it's hyperbole, but in my defense this describes the plot of a certain Daniels song quite accurately.

//Or I guess I could stick with the Dylan thing, but a consistent Dylan reference just seems... wrong.


If this "it's important to history!" thing wasn't just the latest Right Wingnut "angle" on how to keep religious material in schools (without giving religion as the only reason), I'd almost agree with you on all points.

The whole "this is no big deal" argument really favors neither side. If it's not a big deal to have them, it logically follows that removing them also shouldn't be a big deal- but clearly it is. Why this is so is also, once again telling of which particular spin machine is behind the resistance.

It's true that religion is unavoidable if you're going to talk about history in school. It's also unavoidable if you're going to talk about art. But again, if the big stink being raised about the dispute weren't so specifically about Christian devotional music, there's be a good deal less to be suspicious about.

I think you and I both know that if this were a move to excise, say the Eastern History curriculum from the high school instead, these same people wouldn't be troubling their eyelashes to bat over it. Or, in other words, this is as much about History as "The Jungle Book" is about Pokemon.
 
2012-08-15 07:33:53 AM

Muta: Jim_Callahan: Speaking as an avowed atheist, the Freedom From Religion foundation really, really needs to hire someone to help them pick their damned battles.

They're not the ones who started the battle. The Freedom From Religion Foundatation wouldn't exists had religous nutbags not been trying to push thier fiction based beliefs into every part of American life.


Meh, FFR are to atheist organizations what PETA is to animal rights organizations, they're mostly around to make more rational groups like American Atheists and the Humanists look bad by comparison.

Sort of a "please stop helping" situation, is what I'm saying here. Pretty please.
 
2012-08-15 07:34:29 AM

Captain_Ballbeard: NetOwl: Everyone who pursues voice training encounters religious music at that point, of course, because it's good music.

Just because the Church had a stranglehold on art for so very long doesn't mean we should venerate those works, not while better music (and its composers) was being put to the flame nearby.


It's not just because of church-commissioned stuff (which does not account for, say, Mozart). It's because of the quality of some of it. No one should go through life without hearing Verdi's Requiem, for example. It's an excellent composition.

It's not as if that means that future music students won't sing plenty of Schubert. Getting an education in music means knowing both.

Even some of the best operas have some religious elements, like Salome or Parseval. Even if you don't focus on those (Tristan and Der Ring and Elektra are all much better, and that's just sticking with the same two composers), you still have to know their place in history to get a good big-picture view of music.

I say this as someone who prefers the non-religious music, but I'm biased for several reasons.
 
2012-08-15 07:36:19 AM

randomjsa: Strange how all of these 'educational' songs never seem to educate kids using songs that promote any other religion except Christianity.

As usual, if it's just about education let's see what happens if we start singing songs about Allah, and watch the reaction.


America is not a historically Muslim country. You'd have to inject songs that have never been remotely part of American culture. And that would be farkin stupid.
 
2012-08-15 07:37:50 AM
Im in a hole of a town right now that went to SCOTUS over school prayer. I've attended school functions locally since the ruling and they were opened in prayer. I wish it had worked for them. It's nothing I'm calling the ACLU over myself, but the minute this organization gets off their back they will probably just try it again. If they are that set on calling "Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep" a SONG, I'd call that proselytizing.
 
2012-08-15 07:38:25 AM

Mr. Right:
The Freedom From Religion Foundation is a radical group of the same ilk as PETA. They fabricate offense where none exists. They would have us believe that a child singing the word God is predatory and will ruin the child. But listening to rap music where women are denigrated and treated as worthless objects; where killing is condoned - that will have no effect on them and should be permitted.


They're not listening to rap in elementary schools, it's not permitted for the same reason singing prayers shouldn't be.

If you want to indoctrinate your children into believing in the sky man, good for you. Why oh why do you feel the need to indoctrinate everyone else's kids also? Even people who don't want their kids indoctrinated.
 
2012-08-15 07:38:45 AM

SkunkWerks: The whole "this is no big deal" argument really favors neither side. If it's not a big deal to have them, it logically follows that removing them also shouldn't be a big deal- but clearly it is. Why this is so is also, once again telling of which particular spin machine is behind the resistance.


Actually, from the article I'm under the impression that it's not a big deal to the choir director so much as he's (rightfully) offended at the implied insult to his professionalism and somewhat incensed that some random lawyers with a political agenda are trying to make his job arbitrarily complicated just (from his perspective) for the sheer hell of it.

Though I think there is also merit in the argument that you'd have to literally skip entire centuries of music and the entire origin of rock music in the US if you weren't allowed to reference Classical music (commissioned almost entirely by the church) and American hymns and spirituals. Sort of leaves the continuity of the lessons a disjointed mess just as much as only doing religious music would.
 
2012-08-15 07:39:28 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: America is not a historically Muslim country. You'd have to inject songs that have never been remotely part of American culture. And that would be farkin stupid.


Because clearly it's not in the interest of the students to be exposed to outside cultures. That would be like...education or something.
 
2012-08-15 07:40:54 AM
Unless they are teaching them about how these songs are religious I don't see what the problem is?
 
2012-08-15 07:41:38 AM

susler: They're not listening to rap in elementary schools, it's not permitted for the same reason singing prayers shouldn't be.


Has this changed since the late 80s/early 90s? I was a public school kid and we listened to/sang rap and pop stuff pretty regularly. Nothing with overwhelming streams of obscenity since we had to use radio edits of everything, but still, it was represented.

Should I be cracking jokes about the pussification of America continuing?
 
2012-08-15 07:42:25 AM
"Soft Kitty" is actually a hymn to Ceiling Cat.
 
2012-08-15 07:42:53 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: randomjsa: Strange how all of these 'educational' songs never seem to educate kids using songs that promote any other religion except Christianity.

As usual, if it's just about education let's see what happens if we start singing songs about Allah, and watch the reaction.

America is not a historically Muslim country. You'd have to inject songs that have never been remotely part of American culture. And that would be farkin stupid.


Actually, since you go to school to learn stuff about the world, leaning about non-western music wouldn't be so terrible. I don't know enough about it know if a significant portion of music developed in Muslim cultures is secular, though.

I mean, lots of western music is religious, but I had to pick one piece to show off to someone who knew nothing about western music, I'd probably go with something by Beethoven.
 
2012-08-15 07:44:52 AM

Jim_Callahan: They're not the ones who started the battle. The Freedom From Religion Foundatation wouldn't exists had religous nutbags not been trying to push thier fiction based beliefs into every part of American life.

Meh, FFR are to atheist organizations what PETA is to animal rights organizations, they're mostly around to make more rational groups like American Atheists and the Humanists look bad by comparison.


So you don't like FFR... whatever. It doesn't change my point that groups who fight religious symbols in school are just a reaction to the nutbags that continuously push it. You don't like FFR? Fine. I'll rewrite my sentence to accomidate you.

They're not the ones who started the battle. The American Atheists and the Humanists wouldn't exists had religous nutbags not been trying to push thier fiction based beliefs into every part of American life.
 
2012-08-15 07:45:07 AM
It's predatory to conduct this toward a young, captive audience who would be truant if they didn't attend public school

But songs about how much you love the country, Obama, your school, your sports team, or songs about a man being eaten by a boa constrictor while he describes the painful process in exacting detail (♫I'm being eaten by a boa constrictor and I don't like one bit! Oh no, he's eaten my toe, Oh gee, it's up to my knee♪ - I remember singing this in 2nd grade) is okay?

I'm not overly religious. I haven't been to church in 25 years. But I really see no problem with religious songs. Some are really quite good. Like Hallelujah by Jeff Buckley. It's a really sweet song. As long as you do a variety, who cares if you have a couple religious songs in there? If you are approaching it simply from a musical standpoint, there is no indoctrination going on. In English Lit in 12th grade we looked at some stories from the bible. It wasn't presented as 'you must believe this' it was done strictly from a literary perspective. No one freaked out. One day we were reading about some guy building an ark to save his family from a flood, the next we read about some guy taking ten years to get home after ransacking Troy and meeting hooking up with some sea goddess.

Atheists can be just as bad as Christians. They both try and shove doctrine down your throat. Agnostics on the other hand are like "meh." and leave people in peace.

School says to kids "God created everything and if you don't believe that yo will go to hell" = wrong.
School says to kids "Today we have a song about this hippy who could walk on water and magic up some fish chowder" = okay.

Fundies on both sides, give it a damn rest.
 
2012-08-15 07:48:54 AM

Jim_Callahan: Though I think there is also merit in the argument that you'd have to literally skip entire centuries of music and the entire origin of rock music in the US if you weren't allowed to reference Classical music (commissioned almost entirely by the church) and American hymns and spirituals. Sort of leaves the continuity of the lessons a disjointed mess just as much as only doing religious music would.


I see no problem with the argument (as a student of a good deal of history throughout elementary school right up through college, I emphatically agree that religion plays a big part in history, and not in the least, through artistic contributions). And again, if this (and by 'this' I mean 'all of this' - the article, the usual FOX manufactured outrage) weren't so transparently not about that argument, I couldn't find fault in the motive.

Jim_Callahan: Actually, from the article I'm under the impression that it's not a big deal to the choir director so much as he's (rightfully) offended at the implied insult to his professionalism and somewhat incensed that some random lawyers with a political agenda are trying to make his job arbitrarily complicated just (from his perspective) for the sheer hell of it.


Sadly, this grew far beyond the Choir Director well before he was even interviewed. And not solely through the "big stink" raised by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, either. The complications of a school choir director aren't really news so much to folks- at best it's window-dressing. The "war on Christianity" is the sort of thing that keeps Fox viewers glued to the tubes.
 
2012-08-15 07:51:27 AM
Lawyers love me this I know.
their accountants tell me so.
Stupid ones that like to baiotch
end up poor but they are rich.

Yes, lawyers love me.
Yes, lawyers love me.
Yes, lawyers love me.
Their accountants told me so.
 
2012-08-15 07:51:44 AM

NetOwl:
Actually, since you go to school to learn stuff about the world.


I think I see your problem.
 
2012-08-15 07:52:13 AM

MythDragon: Atheists can be just as bad as Christians. They both try and shove doctrine down your throat. Agnostics on the other hand are like "meh." and leave people in peace.


I haven't met an ideology of any sort that's incapable of self-righteousness- particularly when you know which buttons to press.

Feel free to pick your favorites. Just realize that they are in fact, your favorites.
 
2012-08-15 07:53:11 AM

MythDragon: It's predatory to conduct this toward a young, captive audience who would be truant if they didn't attend public school

But songs about how much you love the country, Obama, your school, your sports team, or songs about a man being eaten by a boa constrictor while he describes the painful process in exacting detail (♫I'm being eaten by a boa constrictor and I don't like one bit! Oh no, he's eaten my toe, Oh gee, it's up to my knee♪ - I remember singing this in 2nd grade) is okay?

I'm not overly religious. I haven't been to church in 25 years. But I really see no problem with religious songs. Some are really quite good. Like Hallelujah by Jeff Buckley. It's a really sweet song. As long as you do a variety, who cares if you have a couple religious songs in there? If you are approaching it simply from a musical standpoint, there is no indoctrination going on. In English Lit in 12th grade we looked at some stories from the bible. It wasn't presented as 'you must believe this' it was done strictly from a literary perspective. No one freaked out. One day we were reading about some guy building an ark to save his family from a flood, the next we read about some guy taking ten years to get home after ransacking Troy and meeting hooking up with some sea goddess.

Atheists can be just as bad as Christians. They both try and shove doctrine down your throat. Agnostics on the other hand are like "meh." and leave people in peace.

School says to kids "God created everything and if you don't believe that yo will go to hell" = wrong.
School says to kids "Today we have a song about this hippy who could walk on water and magic up some fish chowder" = okay.

Fundies on both sides, give it a damn rest.


Silence, you. Your rational common sense does not benefit the political agendas of either group, making you more threatening then they are to each other.
 
2012-08-15 07:53:21 AM
Religious music isn't popular in my house for the same reason Wagner isn't popular in Israel: the body count. There is no painting of real beauty done in blood.

/Piss Christ, OTOH
 
2012-08-15 07:54:01 AM

kid_icarus: Silence, you. Your rational common sense does not benefit the political agendas of either group, making you more threatening then they are to each other.


THIS
 
2012-08-15 07:54:08 AM
Guess you missed the part of American History where both prayer and the Bible were the school norm, not the exception.

Muta
I agree but with that said...
had religious nutbags not been fighting tooth and nail to get prayer into schools people would be less skeptical about the motives behind singing songs with religious themes in schools.
 
2012-08-15 07:55:08 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: America is not a historically Muslim country. You'd have to inject songs that have never been remotely part of American culture


I have two issues with that statement.

1) Again... It'd be cool for a school chorus to cover "Blues for Allah".

2) We live in a global environment. For a student to succeed in a career, he'll have to interact with people from China, India, Bahrain, Japan, Germany and probably a half dozen other countries. I agree it is important for American students to learn about American culture. It is just as import (if not more so) for students to be exposed to and learn about other cultures. To exclude music and other forms of art from a curriculum because it isn't "American Enough" is ignorant.
 
2012-08-15 07:55:10 AM

kid_icarus: The possibly-religious songs include "Thank You for the World So Sweet," which says "Thank you God for everything," "Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep," which says "I pray the Lord my soul to keep," "Michael Row your Boat Ashore" and "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands."

Well, to be fair, "Enter Sandman" has those lyrics, too.


All 3 of those are fairly simple choral arrangements that kids can sing. Not too much range and with a repetitive pattern meaning there isn't that much to memorize.

Like others have pointed out. If you want any kind of traditional choral arrangement that kids can sing it is probably a religious song (or a song somehow tied to religion like Christmas carols) from some point in history.

Seriously speaking, if you are trying to teach royalty free choral songs to kids how many non religious options do you have? Thanks to modern copyright law the songs have to be the better part of a century old or more if you don't want to pay all kinds of stupid fees on them. Given how pitifully underfunded most school music programs are what are they supposed to do?
 
2012-08-15 07:56:08 AM

Rufus Lee King: Guys and gals, people are entitled to believe whatever they choose to believe.


reverent.org
That is preposterous!
 
2012-08-15 07:57:52 AM

BrassArt: Guess you missed the part of American History where both prayer and the Bible were the school norm, not the exception.


There was a part in American History where Slavery was part of the labor norm.

Not sure this makes such a good argument for continuing it into the present though. Certainly not on it's own merits.
 
2012-08-15 07:58:53 AM

fusillade762: So are they going to require reading the bible as a historical document next?

Actually that might be fun.


You know, if i were a history teacher in the south, and they required me to use the bible as a historic reference, i would...

I would go in and mark each section that would be considered recorded history, bypassing anything supernatural, just going off bible accounts of kings, wars, etc...

I would earmark each section

Once that is done, i would issue each student an earmarked bible and a real history book and make each student write a report.

Section A: compare and contrast the bible's historic anecdotes, with real historical accounts

Section B: hypothesize as to why there are differences between the bible and history text books

Section C: Which version of history is credible and why?

Section D (Extra Credit*): Given the bible's accuracy about history, what does that say about its mythology?

*this is just for the troll
 
2012-08-15 07:58:54 AM

Hacker_X: kid_icarus: The possibly-religious songs include "Thank You for the World So Sweet," which says "Thank you God for everything," "Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep," which says "I pray the Lord my soul to keep," "Michael Row your Boat Ashore" and "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands."

Well, to be fair, "Enter Sandman" has those lyrics, too.

All 3 of those are fairly simple choral arrangements that kids can sing. Not too much range and with a repetitive pattern meaning there isn't that much to memorize.

Like others have pointed out. If you want any kind of traditional choral arrangement that kids can sing it is probably a religious song (or a song somehow tied to religion like Christmas carols) from some point in history.

Seriously speaking, if you are trying to teach royalty free choral songs to kids how many non religious options do you have? Thanks to modern copyright law the songs have to be the better part of a century old or more if you don't want to pay all kinds of stupid fees on them. Given how pitifully underfunded most school music programs are what are they supposed to do?


That's how they get ya?
 
2012-08-15 07:59:41 AM

Muta: 1) Again... It'd be cool for a school chorus to cover "Blues for Allah".


You know, there is a reason Dead fans need to be loaded on drugs to listen to that crap. And how exactly does a school choir properly cover Garcia noodling away on an untuned guitar for 45 minutes?

/hate the Dead
//they insist upon themselves
 
2012-08-15 08:02:03 AM

Captain_Ballbeard: Rufus Lee King: Guys and gals, people are entitled to believe whatever they choose to believe.

[reverent.org image 350x300]
That is preposterous!


Just noticed: Hitler had lady fingers. Grandad always told me: if they spend more time on their hair than a woman or their hands make you horny, don't trust 'em.
 
2012-08-15 08:03:08 AM

Charlie Freak: I work at a music store that is in the middle of hosting our annual new music reading clinic, and this came up in today's session, so I'm getting a big kick...

For whatever it's worth, I'm agnostic and it bothers me when a song sung in a school choir can't mention Jesus or even Santa (and many can't). There are LOADS of wonderful, historic works that get tossed completely aside and it does nothing to further music.

I think I've disagreed with Ignite Ice on things in the past, but in this case, I have to agree. There is too much that gets thrown out to the detriment of the student's education.

It's art, it's history, and it's important - lighten the fark up.


Very much this. I'm also an agnostic (of course the atheists will end up hating more on us than the religious folk) and I don't have a problem with music that may have a religious theme. A LOT of music has religious overtones but that doesn't mean it's any less important as music.

So long as there isn't a religious message being taught with the songs, I have no problem with it. It's part of our music history (maybe a disclaimer should be announced beforehand).

gimmegimme: Maybe they're performing the John Cage arrangement.


Or Metallica.
 
2012-08-15 08:03:42 AM

meanmutton: Are we going to ban religious art from study in art history classes, too?


It is a slippery slope. I can see this happening. Banning practically the entire Renaissance because some idiot can't understand the difference between art and religious indoctrination.

And, frankly, that is what these songs are. Art. Or at least, a way to teach art. In this case, music. Yes, there is religious roots but the religious roots are used in a music class as much as Leonardo's Last Supper is used a religious tool in art class. In other words, none.

This is a case of freedom of expression versus the separation of church and state.

And it's waste of time and money because in the end, if the school can prove that the songs were used as examples of music and nothing else, which should be easy to do, no way will the other side win.
 
2012-08-15 08:04:06 AM
Barack, Hussein, Obama.... ya ya ya!
 
2012-08-15 08:05:51 AM

BrassArt: Guess you missed the part of American History where both prayer and the Bible were the school norm, not the exception.


At one time, people believed the world was flat. Should Flat Earthism be taught in school today simply because a lot of people once thought it was right?
 
2012-08-15 08:06:09 AM
"Oh Lord, please don't burn us/Don't grill or toast your flock/Don't put us on the barbecue/Or simmer us in stock/Don't braise or bake or boil us/Or stir-fry us in a wok/Oh please don't lightly poach us/Or baste us with hot fat/Don't fricassee or roast us/Or boil us in a vat/And please don't stick thy servants Lord/In a Rotiss-o-mat."

/not remotely obscure
 
2012-08-15 08:06:26 AM
Thanks a lot, thread. I started thinking about secular music from the baroque period, and because of my childhood circumstances, my mind skipped over the good stuff and went directly to Vivaldi. Now I've got that concerto for two cellos running through my head, and it won't leave.

I love everything baroque, but I sometimes wonder if Vivaldi, in particular, can scar someone.
 
2012-08-15 08:06:32 AM

Man On Pink Corner: (Shrug) All they have to do is include songs from other faiths. But you know what? Something tells me that ain't happenin'.


It does at my daughter's school. They sing Jewish songs and Christian songs. And I'd rather that than when they sing "It's my party and I'll cry if I want to". That is an assault on the ears.
 
2012-08-15 08:09:27 AM

Mr. Right: The Freedom From Religion Foundation is a radical group of the same ilk as PETA. They fabricate offense where none exists. They would have us believe that a child singing the word God is predatory and will ruin the child.


Substitute Allah for God and give that one a whirl.
 
2012-08-15 08:09:32 AM

mutterfark: "Oh Lord, please don't burn us/Don't grill or toast your flock/Don't put us on the barbecue/Or simmer us in stock/Don't braise or bake or boil us/Or stir-fry us in a wok/Oh please don't lightly poach us/Or baste us with hot fat/Don't fricassee or roast us/Or boil us in a vat/And please don't stick thy servants Lord/In a Rotiss-o-mat."

/not remotely obscure


I wonder if anyone also remembers "You Can't Get to Heaven in an Electric Chair"?
 
2012-08-15 08:11:16 AM

Thunderpipes: Barack, Hussein, Obama.... ya ya ya!


Remember when they had kids in school singing songs about him? Those were good times... good times.
 
2012-08-15 08:12:02 AM

Jim_Callahan: Has this changed since the late 80s/early 90s? I was a public school kid and we listened to/sang rap and pop stuff pretty regularly. Nothing with overwhelming streams of obscenity since we had to use radio edits of everything, but still, it was represented.

Should I be cracking jokes about the pussification of America continuing?


We didn't have 'radio edits' when I was growing up. I got to hear Steve Miller lament on the radio about getting caught up in that 'funky shiat going down in the city' instead of getting caught in the 'funky kicks'. The pussification of America sucks.
 
2012-08-15 08:13:08 AM

Gramma: It does at my daughter's school. They sing Jewish songs and Christian songs.


Diverse.
 
2012-08-15 08:18:36 AM

Captain_Ballbeard: Religious music isn't popular in my house for the same reason Wagner isn't popular in Israel: the body count. There is no painting of real beauty done in blood.

/Piss Christ, OTOH


Music is art. Avoiding religious music cuts you off from some of the most beautiful pieces of classical music, obviously all spirituals and gospel, and lots of contemporary works like Bowie's "Word On a Wing".
 
2012-08-15 08:20:13 AM
We sang the entire Hallelujah chorus one year for xmas (public high school). It was very pretty, but kind of weirded me out. I mean...

"Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth.
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

For the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

The kingdom of this world
Is become the kingdom of our Lord,
And of His Christ, and of His Christ;
And He shall reign for ever and ever,
For ever and ever, forever and ever,

King of kings, and Lord of lords,
King of kings, and Lord of lords,
And Lord of lords,
And He shall reign,
And He shall reign forever and ever,
King of kings, forever and ever,
And Lord of lords,
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!"
 
2012-08-15 08:22:40 AM

ignite ice: I implore people with an open mind to read the article. The songs are being used as historical references. It's up to each individual student to decide how and what they take away from each song. Students are not being encouraged to interpret any of the songs as having religious meaning. They may have religious symbols of religious connotations in the lyrics, but they won't have a religious meaning to someone who isn't religious. I wish they did, but you don't see me writing to schools asking them to remove non-religious songs. Atheism failing to see the double standard here and I'm not surprised.


I read this and expected to read about militant atheists getting upset about songs that were in no way religious. I grew up in a religious household and these songs were always considered religious. He's got the whole world in his hands was one of the first songs we learned as kids at sunday school. If my kid went to this school I would be pissed.
 
2012-08-15 08:23:30 AM

MythDragon: It's predatory to conduct this toward a young, captive audience who would be truant if they didn't attend public school

But songs about how much you love the country, Obama, your school, your sports team, or songs about a man being eaten by a boa constrictor while he describes the painful process in exacting detail (♫I'm being eaten by a boa constrictor and I don't like one bit! Oh no, he's eaten my toe, Oh gee, it's up to my knee♪ - I remember singing this in 2nd grade) is okay?

I'm not overly religious. I haven't been to church in 25 years. But I really see no problem with religious songs. Some are really quite good. Like Hallelujah by Jeff Buckley. It's a really sweet song. As long as you do a variety, who cares if you have a couple religious songs in there? If you are approaching it simply from a musical standpoint, there is no indoctrination going on. In English Lit in 12th grade we looked at some stories from the bible. It wasn't presented as 'you must believe this' it was done strictly from a literary perspective. No one freaked out. One day we were reading about some guy building an ark to save his family from a flood, the next we read about some guy taking ten years to get home after ransacking Troy and meeting hooking up with some sea goddess.

Atheists can be just as bad as Christians. They both try and shove doctrine down your throat. Agnostics on the other hand are like "meh." and leave people in peace.

School says to kids "God created everything and if you don't believe that yo will go to hell" = wrong.
School says to kids "Today we have a song about this hippy who could walk on water and magic up some fish chowder" = okay.

Fundies on both sides, give it a damn rest.


That's a pretty derpy statement, as neither one of those is acceptable in public schools.
 
2012-08-15 08:29:31 AM

Captain_Ballbeard: You know, there is a reason Dead fans need to be loaded on drugs to listen to that crap


Blues for Allah.

Arabian wind, the needle's eye is thin
The ships of state sail on mirage and drown in sand
Out in no man's land, where Allah does command
What good is spilling blood? It will not grow a thing
"Taste eternity", the swords sing
Blues for Allah, Insh'Allah

They lie where they fall, there's nothing more to say
The desert stars are bright tonight, let's meet as friends
The flower of Islam, the fruit of Abraham
The thousand stories have come round to one again

Arabian night, our gods pursue their flight
What fatal flowers of darkness bloom from seeds of light
Bird of Paradise fly in the white sky
Blues for Allah, Insh'Allah
Let's see with our heart these things our eyes have seen
And know the truth must still lie somewhere in between

These lyrics are better without drugs since you'd miss some great symbolism and literary allusions.
The song uses an interesting scale and time signature. It is a very accessible song that can introduce students to this type of music.
 
2012-08-15 08:29:35 AM

Rufus Lee King: No one can say anything any more! I COMMAND IT!!! FARK will be shut down now. I say so.


Anything.
 
2012-08-15 08:34:17 AM

slayer199: I'm also an agnostic (of course the atheists will end up hating more on us than the religious folk)


Since you bring it up, I just think you people are intellectually lazy and emotionally dishonest to yourselves, avoiding questions of belief with non sequiturs about proof. Otherwise fine people in general.
But nice bit of parenthetical, passive-aggressive self-victimization there.
 
2012-08-15 08:36:19 AM
This would never stand a chance with the Supreme Court. They [FFRF] wants to censor the expressions of Christianity -- and they only go after the Christians, not the Jews or the Muslims.

I don't know, I remember when they went after that one school for singing "Achmed Row The Dhow Ashore"
 
2012-08-15 08:39:37 AM

Muta: Captain_Ballbeard: You know, there is a reason Dead fans need to be loaded on drugs to listen to that crap

Blues for Allah.

Arabian wind, the needle's eye is thin
The ships of state sail on mirage and drown in sand
Out in no man's land, where Allah does command
What good is spilling blood? It will not grow a thing
"Taste eternity", the swords sing
Blues for Allah, Insh'Allah

They lie where they fall, there's nothing more to say
The desert stars are bright tonight, let's meet as friends
The flower of Islam, the fruit of Abraham
The thousand stories have come round to one again

Arabian night, our gods pursue their flight
What fatal flowers of darkness bloom from seeds of light
Bird of Paradise fly in the white sky
Blues for Allah, Insh'Allah
Let's see with our heart these things our eyes have seen
And know the truth must still lie somewhere in between

These lyrics are better without drugs since you'd miss some great symbolism and literary allusions.
The song uses an interesting scale and time signature. It is a very accessible song that can introduce students to this type of music.


What "type" of music? Druggies with minimal skills on their instruments, masturbating musically?
 
2012-08-15 08:39:55 AM
Anything too silly to say is sung - Voltaire.
 
2012-08-15 08:41:35 AM

Generation_D: ignite ice: I implore people with an open mind to read the article. The songs are being used as historical references. It's up to each individual student to decide how and what they take away from each song. Students are not being encouraged to interpret any of the songs as having religious meaning. They may have religious symbols of religious connotations in the lyrics, but they won't have a religious meaning to someone who isn't religious. I wish they did, but you don't see me writing to schools asking them to remove non-religious songs. Atheism failing to see the double standard here and I'm not surprised.

I implore people to shut the hell off FOX NEWS and think for themselves. No matter what, they're lying. Every time.


When did "think for yourself" start meaning "ignore anyone with a different view"?
 
2012-08-15 08:43:47 AM

Captain_Ballbeard: Muta: These lyrics are better without drugs since you'd miss some great symbolism and literary allusions.
The song uses an interesting scale and time signature. It is a very accessible song that can introduce students to this type of music.

What "type" of music? Druggies with minimal skills on their instruments, masturbating musically?


Music with time signatures other than 4/4 and scale other than a chromatic scale. There is more to music than the Dustin Bieber stuff you listen to. Sad you were never exposed to it.
 
2012-08-15 08:45:50 AM

fusillade762: So are they going to require reading the bible as a historical document next?

Actually that might be fun.


We read Job in high school as a literary text. I didn't find it much of an indoctrination. The story of Cain and Abel is as much of an indoctrination as the story of Hercules.
 
2012-08-15 08:47:51 AM

editorial_distractions: We sang the entire Hallelujah chorus one year for xmas (public high school). It was very pretty, but kind of weirded me out. I mean...

(. . .)

King of kings, and Lord of lords,
King of kings, and Lord of lords,
And Lord of lords,
And He shall reign,
And He shall reign forever and ever,
King of kings, forever and ever,
And Lord of lords,
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!"


How repetitious and boring. Is this *really* the best Christian music has to offer? It should be excluded not because of the Christian theme but due to its lack of musical merit.
 
2012-08-15 08:50:04 AM
If it were truly unbiased, the demographic of people standing up for this cause would share the national average percentages of christians and other religions. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess 99% or more are christian (which is obviously not the average) and that in itself proves the cause is not neutral, and by extension, neither are the songs and they all know it. Who do they think they're kidding?
 
2012-08-15 08:50:33 AM

I sound fat:
Where is the specific diety you speak of? Couldnt they be talking about Lord Obama himself?



More likely The Lord Ruler.
 
2012-08-15 08:50:43 AM
FTFA

""This would never stand a chance with the Supreme Court. They [FFRF] wants to censor the expressions of Christianity -- and they only go after the Christians, not the Jews or the Muslims. Now they're going after little children over an innocent song," Bill Donohue, president of Catholic League,

Wow, some "Foxworthy" whargarbbll there for sure

Hey Bill ,In the first place no one is "going after the little children" you dick , secondly it seems the that the Jews and Muslims know better than to try and force their religion on children...dick
 
2012-08-15 08:51:49 AM

NetOwl: Debeo Summa Credo: randomjsa: Strange how all of these 'educational' songs never seem to educate kids using songs that promote any other religion except Christianity.

As usual, if it's just about education let's see what happens if we start singing songs about Allah, and watch the reaction.

America is not a historically Muslim country. You'd have to inject songs that have never been remotely part of American culture. And that would be farkin stupid.

Actually, since you go to school to learn stuff about the world, leaning about non-western music wouldn't be so terrible. I don't know enough about it know if a significant portion of music developed in Muslim cultures is secular, though.

I mean, lots of western music is religious, but I had to pick one piece to show off to someone who knew nothing about western music, I'd probably go with something by Beethoven.


I think that the biggest reason you don't hear much Islamic music sung in a choral setting is because it's not easy to sing, especially in a group setting, especially when you're still developing your vocal technique. Western religious music, in general, is where the concept of harmony came from (aside from the droning found in some East Asian music). Yeah, that's a Eurocentric view, but justifying the benefits of group teaching in music pretty much requires that view, at least until later in a child's musical upbringing.
 
2012-08-15 08:53:37 AM

meanmutton: Generation_D: ignite ice: I implore people with an open mind to read the article. The songs are being used as historical references. It's up to each individual student to decide how and what they take away from each song. Students are not being encouraged to interpret any of the songs as having religious meaning. They may have religious symbols of religious connotations in the lyrics, but they won't have a religious meaning to someone who isn't religious. I wish they did, but you don't see me writing to schools asking them to remove non-religious songs. Atheism failing to see the double standard here and I'm not surprised.

I implore people to shut the hell off FOX NEWS and think for themselves. No matter what, they're lying. Every time.

When did "think for yourself" start meaning "ignore anyone with a different view"?


You don't understand the moral to The Boy Who Cried Wolf, do you? There's only so many hours in the day so why waste it on "news" that has historically shown itself so often to be incomplete, biased and sometimes just plain wrong. Even the choice of which stories to run points towards a blatant and obvious agenda.
 
2012-08-15 08:55:25 AM

Muta: Captain_Ballbeard: Muta: These lyrics are better without drugs since you'd miss some great symbolism and literary allusions.
The song uses an interesting scale and time signature. It is a very accessible song that can introduce students to this type of music.

What "type" of music? Druggies with minimal skills on their instruments, masturbating musically?

Music with time signatures other than 4/4 and scale other than a chromatic scale. There is more to music than the Dustin Bieber stuff you listen to. Sad you were never exposed to it.


I didn't know that, as a Rush fan.

12:5 FTW
 
2012-08-15 08:57:03 AM

I sound fat: Where is the specific diety you speak of? Couldnt they be talking about Lord Obama himself?


"Lord Obama"? Wow, is it 2008 again? Anyone else notice that the only people who ever referred to Obama in religious terms (savior, lord, your god) were conservatives? I guess on some level they must really believe it.
 
2012-08-15 08:58:10 AM
Free speech... unless it ofends the ACLU. Still not seeing congress making any laws pertainig to this so what is the violation?
 
2012-08-15 09:00:07 AM
My friend is an elementary school music teacher. I went to her winter concert a few years back (she had just started teaching). They weren't allowed to do any religious songs or traditional christmas songs. They weren't even allowed to do Jingle Bells which sounds to me like it is just about running around in the snow.

They did this generic song about sledding and she told me she was worried they might get complaints because that was really pushing it. The reason they couldn't do any remotely winter songs wasn't atheists but Christian Scientists I think...
 
2012-08-15 09:02:57 AM

Persnickety: Anyone else notice that the only people who ever referred to Obama in religious terms (savior, lord, your god) were conservatives?


Not really surprising. It is after all how they're used to thinking about their own candidates. Not all that shocking that it's the only way they can process another party's.
 
2012-08-15 09:10:54 AM

Ryan2065: I'm not against singing songs in school that are religious, but come on, you can't just put you prayers to music to get them in schools.


O RLY?

Would like a word with you...

s17.postimage.org

I'm as solid a progressive/liberal as they come, but the majority of music that exists in human history is liturgical in nature. Can't deny it, can't whitewash it, can't pretend it doesn't exist. Just embrace it as part of our heritage. Context is everything. As long as it's not being taught as part of a religous lesson, the separation is there. If the teacher is using it to teach rondels or fugues, well then who cares!

/Support the Arts!
 
2012-08-15 09:12:06 AM

Dansker: slayer199: I'm also an agnostic (of course the atheists will end up hating more on us than the religious folk)

Since you bring it up, I just think you people are intellectually lazy and emotionally dishonest to yourselves, avoiding questions of belief with non sequiturs about proof. Otherwise fine people in general.
But nice bit of parenthetical, passive-aggressive self-victimization there.


Since you bring it up, thanks for the value judgment. You're welcome to believe what you believe. If you thought the same, you'd accept what we believe too.

Carl Sagan described what would happen if a two-dimensional creature from flat land were brought into a three-dimensional space, held up to see all of everything, and then set back down again. Watch it if you can because he explains the problems this creature would have in correctly perceiving, interpreting and relaying what it had seen in the way only he could.

If the Eternal Creator of All Things were to do the same for me: pluck me up by the head, look me in the eye, spin me around in his office for a few minutes and then put me back here I would have the same problem: I could talk until the sun burned out and not even begin to start to describe what I had seen. It could be that some of us have had that experience in the past, that the books they've written are their best attempts at this description and their apparent contradictions are just different sides of the same truth and they all meet in the middle in a place and a way we don't have a word for. Agnostics accept that possibility, but we do it knowing that it's far more likely that there is just no way mortal monkeys stuck in c-space on this little rock could use our scribbles and burping noises to not only accurately describe a god-thing, but explain how it thinks and feels, what it wants and why it cares where we put our penises, and to claim otherwise is a remarkable feat of arrogance, even for a human. The bacteria in my intestines are better-equipped to describe my existence and motivations than we are to do the same with a god. It follows that anyone who tries is most likely full of shiat and wants to use a scary monster story to get us to do something we wouldn't ordinarily do. The way every major religion has behaved in the last fifteen hundred years or so bears that out.
 
2012-08-15 09:13:04 AM
So, because of ONE person, the school district is being sued. If they win, I would counter-sue the parent and the organization she hired. Maybe that would put a stop to this stupid crap.
 
2012-08-15 09:16:07 AM

Muta: How repetitious and boring. Is this *really* the best Christian music has to offer?


No, those are lyrics. Music is made of sound, not text.
 
2012-08-15 09:18:44 AM

Muta: editorial_distractions: We sang the entire Hallelujah chorus one year for xmas (public high school). It was very pretty, but kind of weirded me out. I mean...

(. . .)

King of kings, and Lord of lords,
King of kings, and Lord of lords,
And Lord of lords,
And He shall reign,
And He shall reign forever and ever,
King of kings, forever and ever,
And Lord of lords,
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!"

How repetitious and boring. Is this *really* the best Christian music has to offer? It should be excluded not because of the Christian theme but due to its lack of musical merit.


Actually, it is REALLY pretty when you hear the arrangement live repetition aside. (I'd search for a youtube vid, but I am too lazy). I was in a women's chorus, too, so we did a lot of madrigals, and those were the pseudo-religious songs I liked more. They were still religious, but not so overtly. Plus they weren't so familiar, so it was kind of cool.

ok, here ya go: Link
 
2012-08-15 09:23:44 AM
If there's no sacred music in your Western music education you don't have a Western music education. I'd support including some music from around the world to round things out but it's hard enough to have a decent traditional music program.
/child of two music teachers
 
2012-08-15 09:28:10 AM

Captain_Ballbeard: way south: Now, instead of destroying material, they try to make you believe its taboo so you'll hide it instead.

We also do this with slavery and wife beating, along with other Judaeo-Christian "values" best left at home.


If your implication that we are also hiding these issues is synonymous with "making kids take Black history in high school" then YES!
It's hidden in the textbooks that they refuse to study.

/The Christians weren't the only ones in on slavery, or wife beating for that matter.
/Banning kids from singing Hymns defiantly steps into "Lighten up, Francis" territory.
/Not like the media wont be blasting them into everyones brains twenty-four-farking-seven the entire holiday season.
 
2012-08-15 09:29:15 AM

Flakeloaf: Mr. Right: The Freedom From Religion Foundation is a radical group of the same ilk as PETA. They fabricate offense where none exists. They would have us believe that a child singing the word God is predatory and will ruin the child.

Substitute Allah for God and give that one a whirl.


The Freedom From Religion Foundation would have absolutely no problem if school children were singing about Allah. It's one of the things that allows normal people to know that the FFRF is a radical group with a specific agenda having nothing to do with their innocuous sounding name.
 
2012-08-15 09:29:21 AM

spidermilk: My friend is an elementary school music teacher. I went to her winter concert a few years back (she had just started teaching). They weren't allowed to do any religious songs or traditional christmas songs. They weren't even allowed to do Jingle Bells which sounds to me like it is just about running around in the snow.

They did this generic song about sledding and she told me she was worried they might get complaints because that was really pushing it. The reason they couldn't do any remotely winter songs wasn't atheists but Christian Scientists I think...


Who the hell would consider Jingle Bells to be offensive?
 
2012-08-15 09:29:28 AM

edip1976: Ryan2065: I'm not against singing songs in school that are religious, but come on, you can't just put you prayers to music to get them in schools.

O RLY?

Would like a word with you...

[s17.postimage.org image 850x257]

I'm as solid a progressive/liberal as they come, but the majority of music that exists in human history is liturgical in nature. Can't deny it, can't whitewash it, can't pretend it doesn't exist. Just embrace it as part of our heritage. Context is everything. As long as it's not being taught as part of a religous lesson, the separation is there. If the teacher is using it to teach rondels or fugues, well then who cares!

/Support the Arts!


I did not realize that the only reason Mozart, Bach, Beethoven and Brahms composed their music was so teachers in the 21st century could sneak religion into schools.

They took a well known prayer that isn't generally a song, found a version with music, and are teaching that instead of teaching any number of other traditional children's songs. It is pretty clear what the intent is.
 
2012-08-15 09:29:46 AM
When I was in grade school we were taught some of the Negro spirituals as part of a history of music and our country. But then we also did the PoA.

But I realize now when they taught us La Cucaracha they were indoctrinating us to accept the illegals in our future.
 
2012-08-15 09:31:19 AM

SilentStrider: I actually have no problem with songs of this nature, provided they have the proper context.


Ditto. My choir teacher in high school actually addressed this very well. He basically said that pretty much the only music being written in periods like the Baroque was religious, so there was little choice. He wasn't teaching the religion, just the musical styles.
 
2012-08-15 09:31:58 AM

Captain_Ballbeard: I didn't know that, as a Rush fan.


And you're complaining about the druggy deadheads!? It takes gobs of drugs to deal with the pseudointellectual dribble Rush cranks out. The trees are arguing over sunlight and the maples unionize. What kind of drugs does it take to find *that* deep?
 
2012-08-15 09:32:36 AM

Flakeloaf: Dansker: slayer199: I'm also an agnostic (of course the atheists will end up hating more on us than the religious folk)

Since you bring it up, I just think you people are intellectually lazy and emotionally dishonest to yourselves, avoiding questions of belief with non sequiturs about proof. Otherwise fine people in general.
But nice bit of parenthetical, passive-aggressive self-victimization there.

Since you bring it up, thanks for the value judgment. You're welcome to believe what you believe.


Right back at you, and good luck with it. No sarcasm. And I hope you have a genuinely satisfying life, with many joyful moments.

If you thought the same, you'd accept what we believe too.

I accept that you have no proof of the existense or non-existense of gods. Neither do I or probably anybody else, and the vast majority of both believers and atheists will say exactly the same. That position is not special, and it doesn't really need its own label.

What I don't accept is that "I have no proof" is a valid and relevant response to the question "Do you belive in gods?", whether you're asked by someone else or yourself. Belief is a question of feelings, and regardless of your evidence, I'm sure that deep down somewhere, you know what you believe. But obviously, and I can't believe I have to stress this: You are free to think what you like.
 
2012-08-15 09:38:53 AM
So...

no music history (Chant and Baroque were sponsored by the Catholic Church), no Bach, no Beethoven, no Handel, no Mozart, no spirituals (no black music history). Much of the Blues is out. No Gospel, no R&B.

Well, Tchaikovsky and Joplin are probably happy as spit.
 
2012-08-15 09:41:23 AM

Mr. Right: The Freedom From Religion Foundation would have absolutely no problem if school children were singing about Allah.


They probably would.
 
2012-08-15 09:42:49 AM

StrangeQ: Who the hell would consider Jingle Bells to be offensive?


That whole verse about the horse being lean and lank and getting into a drifted bank and the sleigh getting upset? Obvious animal abuse. Not to mention the fact that putting those jingle bells on a horse might scare it and cause a runaway. PETA and HSUS probably consider Jingle Bells to be hugely offensive.
 
2012-08-15 09:44:25 AM
We are all impressed with the atheist groups who will spend millions purging Christianity from our schools, while simultaneously not donating a penny to those same schools...or any school.
 
2012-08-15 09:47:04 AM

This text is now purple: So...

no music history (Chant and Baroque were sponsored by the Catholic Church), no Bach, no Beethoven, no Handel, no Mozart


Now that's going way, way too far. Bach, Beethoven et al. wrote plenty of secular music. The majority of all their works are instrumental, and operas rarely have religious themes.
 
2012-08-15 09:47:05 AM

Mr. Right: StrangeQ: Who the hell would consider Jingle Bells to be offensive?

That whole verse about the horse being lean and lank and getting into a drifted bank and the sleigh getting upset? Obvious animal abuse. Not to mention the fact that putting those jingle bells on a horse might scare it and cause a runaway. PETA and HSUS probably consider Jingle Bells to be hugely offensive.


I was always bothered by the fact that the Joker got away. Hey!
 
2012-08-15 09:48:18 AM

Somacandra: Do you know why no one sings Hanukkah songs in school? Not because they're Jewish. But because they read like Ronnie James Dio lyrics:

"To sever the towering cypress
sought the Aggagite, son of Hammedatha,
But it became [a snare and] a stumbling block to him
and his arrogance was stilled.
The head of the Benjaminite You lifted
and the enemy, his name You obliterated
His numerous progeny - his possessions -
on the gallows You hanged.

"Bare Your Holy arm
and hasten the End for salvation -
Avenge the vengeance of Your servants' blood
from the wicked nation.
For the triumph is too long delayed for us,
and there is no end to days of evil,
Repel the Red One in the nethermost shadow
and establish for us the seven shepherds."

[i.imgur.com image 300x334]


Wow. Ive been reading the bible just to get a better idea of whats going on and I actually understand what this song is talking about. Im edumucated now!
 
2012-08-15 09:51:00 AM

Dansker:
What I don't accept is that "I have no proof" is a valid and relevant response to the question "Do you belive in gods?", whether you're asked by someone else or yourself. Belief is a question of feelings, and regardless of your evidence, I'm sure that deep down somewhere, you know what you believe. But obviously, and I can't believe I have to stress this: You are free to think what you like.


Internet High-Five! "Yes", "No" and "I don't know" are all valid answers. "I have no proof" is self-important theist-baiting.

editorial_distractions:
I was in a women's chorus, too, so we did a lot of madrigals


It's not every day you get to hear a real seventeenth-century madrigal. It's kinda like finger puppets.

/bird up your treeeeeeee
 
2012-08-15 09:51:36 AM
Handel's "The Messiah" is about as religious a piece of music as one can find, but even as a pagan I have no problem with it.
It's fun and challenging to sing...and when you have a decent orchestra and a 100-voice choir who knows their business the "Hallelujah Chorus" and "Worthy is the Lamb/Sevenfold Amen" is better than sex.


/ OK, it depends on the sex
// still fun to sing
// especially during sex...
 
2012-08-15 09:52:17 AM

Ryan2065: ecmoRandomNumbers: As a music teacher and an atheist...

This is farking stupid. Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.

Alright music teacher, exactly what lessons are the elementary school kids learning from a song with these lyrics that they couldn't get from any other number of children's songs?

Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
If I should die before I wake
I pray the Lord my soul to take
Keep me safe throughout the night
And wake me with the morning ligh

Hush little baby don't say a word
And never mind that noise you heard
It's just the beast under your bed
In your closet in your head t


FTFY
 
2012-08-15 09:53:29 AM

Muta: Captain_Ballbeard: Muta: These lyrics are better without drugs since you'd miss some great symbolism and literary allusions.
The song uses an interesting scale and time signature. It is a very accessible song that can introduce students to this type of music.

What "type" of music? Druggies with minimal skills on their instruments, masturbating musically?

Music with time signatures other than 4/4 and scale other than a chromatic scale. There is more to music than the Dustin Bieber stuff you listen to. Sad you were never exposed to it.


Look, I'm fully capable of torturing a cat, too. I just have the integrity to not call it "music."
 
2012-08-15 09:53:34 AM

Muta: Captain_Ballbeard: I didn't know that, as a Rush fan.

And you're complaining about the druggy deadheads!? It takes gobs of drugs to deal with the pseudointellectual dribble Rush cranks out. The trees are arguing over sunlight and the maples unionize. What kind of drugs does it take to find *that* deep?


We were talking time sigs.

Protip: Rush has done, I don't know, about 27 records since the song you reference.
 
2012-08-15 09:53:39 AM
when i was in elementary school, just a few miles up the road from this one, we had to perform an entire chorale program based on the Noah story: 100% Chance Of Rain.

i wish there were some vocal atheists around then. that show sucked.
 
2012-08-15 09:54:31 AM
My first drum teach made me play 5 over 7 like that was the std.
 
2012-08-15 09:56:43 AM
I've yet to hear of a Christian priest/pastor/minister that would say a song praising God is not a prayer.
 
2012-08-15 09:58:41 AM
Fox News: UNIONIZED TEACHERS FORCING AMERICAN CHILDREN TO SING ISLAMIC NASHEEDS!!!
 
2012-08-15 09:58:43 AM

editorial_distractions:

"Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth.
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

For the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

The kingdom of this world
Is become the kingdom of our Lord,
And of His Christ, and of His Christ;
And He shall reign for ever and ever,
For ever and ever, forever and ever,

King of kings, and Lord of lords,
King of kings, and Lord of lords,
And Lord of lords,
And He shall reign,
And He shall reign forever and ever,
King of kings, forever and ever,
And Lord of lords,
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!"



i2.cdn.turner.com
 
2012-08-15 10:07:39 AM

liverleef: ignite ice: I implore people with an open mind to read the article. The songs are being used as historical references. It's up to each individual student to decide how and what they take away from each song. Students are not being encouraged to interpret any of the songs as having religious meaning. They may have religious symbols of religious connotations in the lyrics, but they won't have a religious meaning to someone who isn't religious. I wish they did, but you don't see me writing to schools asking them to remove non-religious songs. Atheism failing to see the double standard here and I'm not surprised.
I read this and expected to read about militant atheists getting upset about songs that were in no way religious. I grew up in a religious household and these songs were always considered religious. He's got the whole world in his hands was one of the first songs we learned as kids at sunday school. If my kid went to this school I would be pissed.


Yes, they are religious songs. I'm not religious, haven't been to church since Sunday school, but you know what songs we learned way back in those days? We learned the Lord's Prayer (here set to music), He's got the Whole World in His Hands, and Michael Row Your Boat Ashore. In fact, these are about the ONLY religious songs I know, except for the ones that Johnny Cash sings.

The possibly-religious songs include "Thank You for the World So Sweet," which says "Thank you God for everything," "Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep," which says "I pray the Lord my soul to keep," "Michael Row your Boat Ashore" and "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands."

Somebody brought a hymnbook home from church and decided that the kids needed more of that.
 
2012-08-15 10:11:12 AM

This text is now purple: Look, I'm fully capable of torturing a cat, too. I just have the integrity to not call it "music."


Another Rush/Geddy Lee fan.
 
2012-08-15 10:16:34 AM

Dansker: This text is now purple: So...

no music history (Chant and Baroque were sponsored by the Catholic Church), no Bach, no Beethoven, no Handel, no Mozart

Now that's going way, way too far. Bach, Beethoven et al. wrote plenty of secular music. The majority of all their works are instrumental, and operas rarely have religious themes.


So for Bach, you've got what, the Brandenberg Concertos and that's it? The work that was never performed in his lifetime? Most of the rest of his life was spent in the employ of one church or another.

As for Beethoven, shame about the 9th -- you know, the anthem of Europe? First important choral symphony? Considered the greatest western music work, and possibly in the world? Shame about that passing reference to the gods in the chorus.
 
2012-08-15 10:17:41 AM
"The whole point to being an atheist is not giving a crap!"
-atheist Adam Carolla on militant atheism
 
2012-08-15 10:20:05 AM

Flakeloaf:
Internet High-Five! "Yes", "No" and "I don't know" are all valid answers. "I have no proof" is self-important theist-baiting.


*high-five*

Honestly, I still believe you know what you believe, believe it or not, but I can't leave a high-five hanging. I'm also feeling much too mellow to keep arguing about it, so I'll just have a beer and listen to the Brandenburgh Concertos. Cheers!
 
2012-08-15 10:20:20 AM
Granted it has been 45 years but I do remember singing religious songs in public school. We sang everybody's songs. There were Catholic, Protestant and Jewish oriented songs along with some from religions I have long since forgotten about. I don't think there were any Islamic songs. I would have remembered that. And secular songs! We sang a lot of those. WTF is everybody's problem?

The Christians and non-affiliated could tear off a mean "Hava Nagila!"
 
2012-08-15 10:23:54 AM

Dansker: Since you bring it up, I just think you people are intellectually lazy and emotionally dishonest to yourselves, avoiding questions of belief with non sequiturs about proof. Otherwise fine people in general.
But nice bit of parenthetical, passive-aggressive self-victimization there.


No, I'm just honest enough with myself to say I don't know. There's no proof of the existence of a supreme being, but that does not mean one does not exist. The question of a supreme being is inherently unknowable and unprovable based on current conditions. Some atheists are as bad as fundies...you have a belief that there isn't a supreme being but you also can't prove your position any more than a fundie can prove theirs. It's intellectually lazy to think otherwise.
 
2012-08-15 10:26:47 AM
How can these groups claim to care about any children when by their own actions they are forcing school districts to divert already limited funds to defend against frivolous bullshiat like this?
 
2012-08-15 10:28:01 AM
Yep, all public school music teachers deal with this nonsense at all times. This takes me back to the time when I was teaching high school band on Long Island...

Each year, all music teachers rotated responsibilities to include a song of Christian/Jewish/Kwanzaa (not that there are many of these!) origins within the rest of the concert repertoire. One asshat in the audience must have missed the Jewish song in the Choir's portion of the program one year, because his lawyer contacted the school and demanded we produce the last 20 years of concert programs to prove that we weren't being discriminatory. Before this jerk went away, he actually called my Performing Arts Administrator a nazi. My boss was Jewish.

/CSS
 
2012-08-15 10:37:40 AM
I wonder if they'd be amenable to adding this to the play list?
 
2012-08-15 10:38:28 AM

Dansker: What I don't accept is that "I have no proof" is a valid and relevant response to the question "Do you believe in gods?", whether you're asked by someone else or yourself. Belief is a question of feelings, and regardless of your evidence, I'm sure that deep down somewhere, you know what you believe. But obviously, and I can't believe I have to stress this: You are free to think what you like.


That's a different question. If you're asking "Do you believe in a supreme being?", the answer is difficult to quantify because I can't believe or disbelieve what I don't know. The answer to that question is probably easier to quantify if I answered like this: based on my current knowledge the answer is no, but I can't rule it out either.

f you're asking if I align with any religion (or atheism), the answer would be a definitive no. Why? Because those require belief or faith in the unprovable existence or non-existence of a god. If you're asking me if a supreme being exists, the answer is I don't know. The point is that I really have no feelings on the on "belief" of a supreme being because it's a question that I intellectually cannot answer.

Hope that clarifies things.
 
2012-08-15 10:38:36 AM

This text is now purple: Dansker: This text is now purple: So...

no music history (Chant and Baroque were sponsored by the Catholic Church), no Bach, no Beethoven, no Handel, no Mozart

Now that's going way, way too far. Bach, Beethoven et al. wrote plenty of secular music. The majority of all their works are instrumental, and operas rarely have religious themes.

So for Bach, you've got what, the Brandenberg Concertos and that's it? The work that was never performed in his lifetime? Most of the rest of his life was spent in the employ of one church or another.

As for Beethoven, shame about the 9th -- you know, the anthem of Europe? First important choral symphony? Considered the greatest western music work, and possibly in the world? Shame about that passing reference to the gods in the chorus.


Bach wrote lots of stuff with no singing in it, including the best solo violin pieces until Beethoven's and the best organ music ever. His third partita is the piece I listen to the most. A lot of his important music was religious, though, even if he was pretty blatantly doing it for the paycheck.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any Beethoven religious references outside of the final movement of the 9th, but yeah, losing that would be a shame. He probably refers to religion in passing somewhere in Fidelio, but don't remember it well enough to confirm that.

However, the passing references to God (most of which Schiller wrote, not Beethoven) are just sort of a cultural artifact in the 9th; they aren't the point of the piece, and they serve a historical purpose, like Greek religion does. I doubt anyone would seriously try to erase all references to history and literature and poetry in music just to maintain ideological purity.

From what I can tell, that's not what the article is about, anyway. The problem there is that the music in question has no real purpose other than the practice of religion.

You can tell students to read (parts of) the Bible or Paradise Lost or the Divine Comedy or whatever. I read some of each of those in school (especially Dante), as well as most of the other big names. (My class even had to memorize some Goethe.) You just can't ask them to pray or do other things with no legitimate secular purpose.
 
2012-08-15 10:39:05 AM
This is an issue because organized religion has chosen to make public schools their battleground of choice. Creationism has no place in school except maybe in a fiction literature course, but churches have attempted to ram it down the throats of schools for years. Now some schools have to refer to fairy tales in their SCIENCE class.

So maybe to some parents who actually want their kid to come out of school smarter than when they started, teaching religious songs to kids in their formative years sounds a lot like grooming. You could also call it recruiting, or proselytizing.

What happens if there are kids who come from families from another religion that don't want their kid singing songs about some god they don't worship?

Are schools teaching a middle/high school law or justice class featuring the rampant pedophilia and the systematic protection of offenders in the Catholic church? No? How about a study of the KKK? No? Is there a balanced approach to showing both sides of organized religion? No? Then get the religious bias out of elementary school.

The field of music is not so narrow that you can't fill a curriculum full of non religious songs. Take your kid to a damn church if you want them to sing god songs.
 
2012-08-15 10:42:05 AM

This text is now purple: Dansker: This text is now purple: So...

no music history (Chant and Baroque were sponsored by the Catholic Church), no Bach, no Beethoven, no Handel, no Mozart

Now that's going way, way too far. Bach, Beethoven et al. wrote plenty of secular music. The majority of all their works are instrumental, and operas rarely have religious themes.

So for Bach, you've got what, the Brandenberg Concertos and that's it?


No, are you freaking kidding me? All his concertos, hundreds of opuses for lute, cello, string quartets... You know I'm talking about Johann Sebastian, right?

As for Beethoven, shame about the 9th -- you know, the anthem of Europe? First important choral symphony? Considered the greatest western music work, and possibly in the world? Shame about that passing reference to the gods in the chorus.

No, not really much of a shame. And the poem by Schiller is about human joy and togetherness, not religion. It merely uses imagiry from classical Greek mythology, as European culture often does. That doesn't make it anymore religious than me talking about my muse, or a psychologist talking about Narcissism or the Cassandra Syndrome

Now hush, you're spoiling the music and harshing my mellow.
 
2012-08-15 10:44:17 AM

Rufus Lee King: I'd like to say again


Again.
 
2012-08-15 10:50:10 AM
I did not go to church as a child. I sang Jesus-ey songs at Christmas. The school did not force me to follow any religion nor was it talked about much. Those are just the most popular songs we have in the country and they are pretty traditional fare.

The "get rid of all religious references" zealots need to relax.
 
2012-08-15 10:51:35 AM

TiMthisIS: I did not go to church as a child. I sang Jesus-ey songs at Christmas. The school did not force me to follow any religion nor was it talked about much. Those are just the most popular songs we have in the country and they are pretty traditional fare.

The "get rid of all religious references" zealots need to relax.


If it's not a big deal to have them, it's also not a big deal to remove them.
 
2012-08-15 10:51:54 AM

slayer199: Dansker: Since you bring it up, I just think you people are intellectually lazy and emotionally dishonest to yourselves, avoiding questions of belief with non sequiturs about proof. Otherwise fine people in general.
But nice bit of parenthetical, passive-aggressive self-victimization there.

No, I'm just honest enough with myself to say I don't know. There's no proof of the existence of a supreme being, but that does not mean one does not exist.


It doesn't mean that thousands of gods don't exist, but I bet you know whether you believe that or not.

The. question of a supreme being is inherently unknowable and unprovable based on current conditions.

How can you know that? You have no knowledge of the nature of gods.
Maybe they exist and are knowable.

Some atheists are as bad as fundies...you have a belief that there isn't a supreme being but you also can't prove your position any more than a fundie can prove theirs. It's intellectually lazy to think otherwise.

Practically nobody, atheist or otherwise, claims the ability to prove the existense or non-existense of gods
And I don't think it's honest to say you don't know what you believe. Now, seriously, this beer is NOT going to drink itself.
 
2012-08-15 10:56:27 AM
As much as I like old Gospel songs, I don't see why they need religious songs in standard music education. Of course, it's not against my religion to sing 'em, but it is for some people. And others are simply opposed. So let them be exempted from that part, if you feel so strongly that it has to be included. And while you're at it, include traditional tunes from other religions (I don't know - maybe music for buddhist meditation or something), so you can really have some education.
 
2012-08-15 10:57:05 AM
Which means, conversely, that a bunch of stick-up-their ass twits campaigned to remove any religous songs from school, cause it's so offensive to hear.



/atheist- you can sing and pray all you want
 
2012-08-15 11:04:37 AM
I am fine with this as long as the songs feature EVERY religion, not just christianity. My main problem is when people say `religious` they actually mean `christian`

lets see

FTA The possibly-religious songs include "Thank You for the World So Sweet," which says "Thank you God for everything," "Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep," which says "I pray the Lord my soul to keep," "Michael Row your Boat Ashore" and "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands."

thank you for the world is based on a creator religion. Same with thank you god for everything. Now I lay me down mentions souls, another christian theme. Micheal is a bible character and the final one specifically says hands not noodles, trunk or tentacles and was sung to me in christian religious studies.

Where are the non-christian songs?

/should we get the kids to sing `A is for Aryan` as well?
 
2012-08-15 11:05:49 AM

STRYPERSWINE: "The whole point to being an atheist is not giving a crap!"
-atheist Adam Carolla on militant atheism


I don't "give a crap" because I'm an atheist. I "give a crap" because I'm a humanist and I'm sick of theocrats farking up my world and the world I'm leaving to my children.
 
2012-08-15 11:07:45 AM

NetOwl: Beethoven religious references outside of the final movement of the 9th


Well, there was the whole Mass in D thing. If you haven't heard it, you should. If you ever saw the movie Immortal Beloved, the Kyrie is playing during the funeral scene.
 
2012-08-15 11:11:20 AM
Our money still says "In God We Trust", and they are worried about what song kids are singing in schools?
 
2012-08-15 11:13:23 AM

psyon: Our money still says "In God We Trust", and they are worried about what song kids are singing in schools?


If you've ever tried to hum a few bills, you'd know why.
 
2012-08-15 11:42:49 AM
I'm a middle school choir director in a public school, and an atheist. I've programmed religious pieces before, and will continue to do so. Religious texts make up a vast majority of all available choir music, and I know of no other teacher that would feel they can limit over half of their subject and still give kids a full-rounded education. On the other hand, I'm partial to "burying" such things into foreign texts - Latin is lovely to sing in. I also shy away from modern "praise choir" music - It's usually hokey, but give me a good Robert deCormier or Moses Hogan arrangement of a spiritual any day.

What I tell the kids (I don't mention my atheism): "We are learning this for the music - we will discuss the text at times, and what it means, because the way the music is structured is deeply linked to the text, as is all choir music. Where I would cross a line is to say "That's what it means, and that's what you should believe." If I say that, I deserve to be fired."
 
2012-08-15 11:45:05 AM
so, if and when i have a kid in this school, they'll sing slayer?

/that would be awesome
 
2012-08-15 11:51:47 AM

Rufus Lee King: So, kids can't sing songs with any sort of religious references any more? And a lot of you would support that concept. Crypto-Nazis, take off your masks. I can still see you.


Okay. Let's have them sing This lovely song. It can be sung as a round, and a wonderful commenter added more verses, which means the kids get more than that 'row row row your boat' stuff, which, let's be honest, is just the beginner's version of that hell known as singing rounds:

Ladies spin your circle bright,
Weave your web of dark and light,
Earth, Air, Fire and Water,
Bind us as one.

Maiden spin your circle white,
Weave your web of glowing light,
Stag, hawk, bear and wolf,
Bind us as one.

Mother spin your circle red,
Weave your web of glowing thread,
Earth, Air, Fire and Water,
Bind us as one.

Wise One spin your circle black,
Weave the wisdom that we lack,
Moonlight, sunlight, starlight, shimmer,
Bind us as one.


Beautiful, no? And so educational!
 
2012-08-15 11:56:21 AM
fark all these religious nuts that think that their rights starts where mine end.
 
2012-08-15 11:56:49 AM
Wow. Farkers amaze me. No one is saying we need to ignore all allusions to religion in the historical record, or insisting that we keep our children from learning about them in any context whatsoever. No one's disparaging Beethoven, either. But folks, these are the exact songs that you learn when you're four years old in Sunday school. (If you're lucky enough to have that experience.) They may as well have them singing "Jesus Loves Me," (or whatever the name of that damned song is) while they're at it.

I'm not saying it isn't a fine line, or that I know just where that line is, but it's pretty f*cking far from singing "Thank You For The World So Sweet" in a public school.

Also, many agnostics do indeed believe in a "higher power," and will tell you as much. It's the nature of that entity which they claim no knowledge of.

/It's not "Is our children learning?," so much as "WHAT is our children learning?"
//slashies
 
2012-08-15 11:57:23 AM

I sound fat: gimmegimme: I'm shocked...SHOCKED that the Fox News story is short on details. Even though I'm the biggest atheist who ever atheisted, I do think that context is important. High school chorus kids can learn a LOT by singing Handel's Messiah. That's fine. Shoot, you could really impress me and perform Mozart's Requiem or the Ninth. If this school is putting together a program of Negro spirituals for Black History Month...fine.

However, this is an elementary school. I really don't think there's anything you can learn from "He's got the whole world in his hands" that you can't learn from any song that isn't referring to a specific deity.

And Billy Donahue, King of Fake Outrage, please stop patronizing us by claiming that "Michael, Row Your Boat Ashore" doesn't refer to a specific deity.

He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got the sun and the rain in His hands,
He's got the moon and the stars in His hands,
He's got the wind and the clouds in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got the rivers and the mountains in His hands,
He's got the oceans and the seas in His hands,
He's got you and he's got me in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got everybody here in His hands,
He's got everybody there in His hands,
He's got everybody everywhere in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.


Where is the specific diety you speak of? Couldnt they be talking about Lord Obama himself?


"He" sounds very touchy feely... do we really want "him" around our kids?
 
2012-08-15 11:58:44 AM

PsiChick: Rufus Lee King: So, kids can't sing songs with any sort of religious references any more? And a lot of you would support that concept. Crypto-Nazis, take off your masks. I can still see you.

Okay. Let's have them sing This lovely song. It can be sung as a round, and a wonderful commenter added more verses, which means the kids get more than that 'row row row your boat' stuff, which, let's be honest, is just the beginner's version of that hell known as singing rounds:

Ladies spin your circle bright,
Weave your web of dark and light,
Earth, Air, Fire and Water,
Bind us as one.

Maiden spin your circle white,
Weave your web of glowing light,
Stag, hawk, bear and wolf,
Bind us as one.

Mother spin your circle red,
Weave your web of glowing thread,
Earth, Air, Fire and Water,
Bind us as one.

Wise One spin your circle black,
Weave the wisdom that we lack,
Moonlight, sunlight, starlight, shimmer,
Bind us as one.

Beautiful, no? And so educational!


This is magnitudes better than farking "jesus loves me," or that idiot whole world in his hands song. I spent some time listening to some world music I hadn't heard before last week. All easy to play for an elementary student and from an educational standpoint would teach rhythm and music theory so much better than sunday school songs. Plus, kids can play simple instruments like blocks along to the music.

Educators who use sunday school songs instead are being lazy and bigoted.
 
2012-08-15 12:04:52 PM

slayer199: That's a different question. If you're asking "Do you believe in a supreme being?", the answer is difficult to quantify because I can't believe or disbelieve what I don't know.


I see. Maybe I know, and can prove it.
As a matter of fact, I hold here in my hand solid, irrefutable, conclusive proof about the existense of gods. I'd show it to you, but I don't want to, and you can't prove I don't, so you don't know.
Do you believe I do?

The answer to that question is probably easier to quantify if I answered like this: based on my current knowledge the answer is no, but I can't rule it out either.

The question is "Do you believe in gods?", so that makes you just like an atheist. Except I don't feel a need to state the bleedingly obvious: that I can't rule it out.


f you're asking if I align with any religion (or atheism), the answer would be a definitive no. Why? Because those require belief or faith in the unprovable existence or non-existence of a god. If you're asking me if a supreme being exists, the answer is I don't know. The point is that I really have no feelings on the on "belief" of a supreme being because it's a question that I intellectually cannot answer.

Hope that clarifies things.


Some things, while leaving me baffled about others.
Why don't you have feelings about things you can't intellectually prove? That doesn't sound quite human.
And why do you keep reducing the question to one supreme being? Sounds like you have a specific belief about gods in mind.
 
2012-08-15 12:05:10 PM

Farktastic: PsiChick: Rufus Lee King: So, kids can't sing songs with any sort of religious references any more? And a lot of you would support that concept. Crypto-Nazis, take off your masks. I can still see you.

Okay. Let's have them sing This lovely song. It can be sung as a round, and a wonderful commenter added more verses, which means the kids get more than that 'row row row your boat' stuff, which, let's be honest, is just the beginner's version of that hell known as singing rounds:

Ladies spin your circle bright,
Weave your web of dark and light,
Earth, Air, Fire and Water,
Bind us as one.

Maiden spin your circle white,
Weave your web of glowing light,
Stag, hawk, bear and wolf,
Bind us as one.

Mother spin your circle red,
Weave your web of glowing thread,
Earth, Air, Fire and Water,
Bind us as one.

Wise One spin your circle black,
Weave the wisdom that we lack,
Moonlight, sunlight, starlight, shimmer,
Bind us as one.

Beautiful, no? And so educational!

This is magnitudes better than farking "jesus loves me," or that idiot whole world in his hands song. I spent some time listening to some world music I hadn't heard before last week. All easy to play for an elementary student and from an educational standpoint would teach rhythm and music theory so much better than sunday school songs. Plus, kids can play simple instruments like blocks along to the music.

Educators who use sunday school songs instead are being lazy and bigoted.


I don't appreciate you people trying to send my child to hell by exposing him to witchcraft!
 
2012-08-15 12:12:30 PM

Dansker: Why don't you have feelings about things you can't intellectually prove? That doesn't sound quite human.


Dunno what members of H. Sapiens you've had contact with, but that sounds exceedingly human to me...
 
2012-08-15 12:13:42 PM
Farktastic SmartestFunniest 2012-08-15 11:58:44 AM


PsiChick: Rufus Lee King: So, kids can't sing songs with any sort of religious references any more? And a lot of you would support that concept. Crypto-Nazis, take off your masks. I can still see you.

Okay. Let's have them sing This lovely song. It can be sung as a round, and a wonderful commenter added more verses, which means the kids get more than that 'row row row your boat' stuff, which, let's be honest, is just the beginner's version of that hell known as singing rounds:

Ladies spin your circle bright,
Weave your web of dark and light,
Earth, Air, Fire and Water,
Bind us as one.

Maiden spin your circle white,
Weave your web of glowing light,
Stag, hawk, bear and wolf,
Bind us as one.

Mother spin your circle red,
Weave your web of glowing thread,
Earth, Air, Fire and Water,
Bind us as one.

Wise One spin your circle black,
Weave the wisdom that we lack,
Moonlight, sunlight, starlight, shimmer,
Bind us as one.




Funniest thing I've seen today. Thanks!
 
2012-08-15 12:15:20 PM

Dansker: Some things, while leaving me baffled about others.
Why don't you have feelings about things you can't intellectually prove? That doesn't sound quite human.
And why do you keep reducing the question to one supreme being? Sounds like you have a specific belief about gods in mind.


Why don't I have a feeling on the issue of god/gods existence or non-existence? Why am I required to have a feeling on the issue? Let me give you an example of a similar argument. Do you believe in extraterrestrials? Do you find it possible that as vast as the universe is that there may be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe?

Supreme being as a term was a generality...not a specificity.
 
2012-08-15 12:16:43 PM
There's a big difference between singing a choral arrangement in a music class and singing a hymn.

If they sing it in a church, it's a hymn.

/I once signed up for a choir where we sang Hallelujah Chorus. I was once threatened with official punishments for refusing to sing hymns. The two are not the same.

If someone signs up for a history of music course they'll expect to learn religious music, otherwise do not expect to force your religion on me.
 
2012-08-15 12:18:34 PM
There was a time when it was thought holy to write music in 3/4 time because the 3 beats per measure represented the Holy Trinity.

Let's ban all waltzes from public!
 
2012-08-15 12:22:00 PM

meanmutton: When did "think for yourself" start meaning "ignore anyone with a different view"?


I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone use that and mean anything else
 
2012-08-15 12:24:39 PM

SweetRoisinDubh: There was a time when it was thought holy to write music in 3/4 time because the 3 beats per measure represented the Holy Trinity.

Let's ban all waltzes from public!


Screw you, the country waltz is the only dance I've managed to teach my girlfriend.

Mind you, my dancing probably ought to fall under public indecency.
 
2012-08-15 12:27:43 PM
How about the boatload of stupid people who object to God?

Don't start nothin won't be nothin
 
2012-08-15 12:30:00 PM

I May Be Crazy But...: SweetRoisinDubh: There was a time when it was thought holy to write music in 3/4 time because the 3 beats per measure represented the Holy Trinity.

Let's ban all waltzes from public!

Screw you, the country waltz is the only dance I've managed to teach my girlfriend.

Mind you, my dancing probably ought to fall under public indecency.


I was just trying to be silly.

You can dance if you want to...
 
2012-08-15 12:32:13 PM

SweetRoisinDubh: I May Be Crazy But...: SweetRoisinDubh: There was a time when it was thought holy to write music in 3/4 time because the 3 beats per measure represented the Holy Trinity.

Let's ban all waltzes from public!

Screw you, the country waltz is the only dance I've managed to teach my girlfriend.

Mind you, my dancing probably ought to fall under public indecency.

I was just trying to be silly.

You can dance if you want to...


Can I leave my friends behind?

/Put in an apostrophe to get "friend's" and that's a really unfortunate turn of phrase.
 
2012-08-15 12:42:07 PM

SkunkWerks: Dansker: Why don't you have feelings about things you can't intellectually prove? That doesn't sound quite human.

Dunno what members of H. Sapiens you've had contact with, but that sounds exceedingly human to me...


Feelings of religious belief are extremely common. Feeling a lack of belief in gods is rarer, but not uncommon. Some feel that gods are unknowable, but of course they can't prove that.
Most people I've met feel that their parents love them. At least, I have a feeling they do.
Some people feel confident without reason.
Some people always feel bad things are going to happen to them. A few days ago a friend of mine had a feeling about a horse, but he should have ignored that.
I have a feeling I'm out of milk, but I don't know, and I can't prove it where I am right now.
 
2012-08-15 12:44:21 PM
IIRC, we just had a thread a few days ago about Missouri's state constitutional amendment that supports the right of people to pray in government-funded locations, as long as it's voluntary.

IIRC, the Fark reaction ot that was, "what a huge waste of time, nobody's trying to ban religious speech."

And now we have subby assuming it's a slam-dunk that any songs with potentially religious content should obviously be banned from school music classes.

Watching secular humanists is fun.. as long as you can make your head spin fast enough.
 
2012-08-15 12:44:29 PM

Dansker: I have a feeling I'm out of milk, but I don't know, and I can't prove it where I am right now.


There's an app for that.
 
2012-08-15 12:44:48 PM
Well, seeing as your friends don't dance, and if they don't dance, they're no friends of mine...

I think you can do that.

/There should ALWAYS be an apostrophe there.
 
2012-08-15 12:46:37 PM

I May Be Crazy But...: SweetRoisinDubh: I May Be Crazy But...: SweetRoisinDubh: There was a time when it was thought holy to write music in 3/4 time because the 3 beats per measure represented the Holy Trinity.

Let's ban all waltzes from public!

Screw you, the country waltz is the only dance I've managed to teach my girlfriend.

Mind you, my dancing probably ought to fall under public indecency.

I was just trying to be silly.

You can dance if you want to...

Can I leave my friends behind?

/Put in an apostrophe to get "friend's" and that's a really unfortunate turn of phrase.


Damn. Posted this twice because I didn't reply to you the first time:

Well, seeing as your friends don't dance, and if they don't dance, they're no friends of mine...

I think you can do that.

/There should ALWAYS be an apostrophe there.
 
2012-08-15 01:05:12 PM
Fox News link? Pass.
 
2012-08-15 01:29:37 PM

yingtong: IIRC, we just had a thread a few days ago about Missouri's state constitutional amendment that supports the right of people to pray in government-funded locations, as long as it's voluntary.

IIRC, the Fark reaction ot that was, "what a huge waste of time, nobody's trying to ban religious speech."

And now we have subby assuming it's a slam-dunk that any songs with potentially religious content should obviously be banned from school music classes.

Watching secular humanists is fun.. as long as you can make your head spin fast enough.


IIR, the objection to the Missouri state constitutional amendment was that it was using tax payer money to promote a religion.

IIR, the objection to singing religious songs in school if that it is using taxpayer money to promote a religion.

Watching secular humanists must be boring sing they are so consistent.
 
jvl
2012-08-15 01:35:02 PM

StoPPeRmobile: [www.whydontyou.org.uk image 350x262]


Oh look, it's the anti-Christian "help help we're being oppressed" thing again.

According to your logic, because Shia are the majority in Iraq, Saddam Hussein and the Sunni couldn't possibly have oppressed them, right?
 
2012-08-15 01:35:07 PM

slayer199: Dansker: Why don't you have feelings about things you can't intellectually prove?

Why don't I have a feeling on the issue of god/gods existence or non-existence?


No,what I'm asking is why does your lack of proof about a subject rule out feelings on the subject?
But it's kinda moot, because you already admitted that you don't feel belief in gods, remember: "Do you believe in a supreme being? [...] based on my current knowledge the answer is no"
So welcome out of the closet and into the Atheist community. Just kidding, we don't have a community.


Why am I required to have a feeling on the issue?

You're not, but I believe you do, like you probably do about a lot of things, you can't intellectually prove
How do you feel about my claim to have solid proof concerning the existence of gods?

Let me give you an example of a similar argument. Do you believe in extraterrestrials?

Yes. I don't know that it's true, and I can't prove it, but it's a big universe, and I feel that there is probably life somewhere else. It could even be quite common.
Do you?

Do you find it possible that as vast as the universe is that there may be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe?

Yes, of course, I already said! Tsk, you never listen.
That was easy, what did you prove?


Supreme being as a term was a generality...not a specificity.

Yeah, I mean why do you keep reducing it to singular? I'm probably just splitting hairs.
 
2012-08-15 01:41:27 PM

jvl: According to your logic, because Shia are the majority in Iraq, Saddam Hussein and the Sunni couldn't possibly have oppressed them, right?


According to your logic, it'd be perfectly okay do do so because they're the majority.

In other news: you made this too easy.
 
2012-08-15 01:42:47 PM

SkunkWerks: jvl: According to your logic, because Shia are the majority in Iraq, Saddam Hussein and the Sunni couldn't possibly have oppressed them, right?

According to your logic, it'd be perfectly okay do do so because they're the majority.

In other news: you made this too easy.


Okay, maybe not that easy. Just substitute "power" for "majority" and we're still in business.
 
2012-08-15 01:50:59 PM

jvl: StoPPeRmobile: [www.whydontyou.org.uk image 350x262]

Oh look, it's the anti-Christian "help help we're being oppressed" thing again.

According to your logic, because Shia are the majority in Iraq, Saddam Hussein and the Sunni couldn't possibly have oppressed them, right?


Sure, since we're ruled by a dictator giving commands to bands of murdering thugs, you have a fair point.

As long as we're talking about completely different things, did you also know that there were a whole lot more peasants than nobles in the middle ages?
 
2012-08-15 02:05:29 PM

Dansker: So for Bach, you've got what, the Brandenberg Concertos and that's it?

No, are you freaking kidding me? All his concertos, hundreds of opuses for lute, cello, string quartets... You know I'm talking about Johann Sebastian, right?


Of his 50 year career, Bach spent 6 of them not employed by the Church. The majority of his body of work was commissioned by the dominant religious authority in Europe. It may not have lyrics, but most of Bach's output was ecclesiastical.

And the Catholic Church loves it some finale to the 9th Symphony.
 
2012-08-15 02:07:38 PM

Ryan2065:
They took a well known prayer that isn't generally a song, found a version with music, and are teaching that instead of teaching any number of other traditional children's songs. It is pretty clear what the intent is.


Context, sir. Context. I went to a public high school in the early 90's with an amazing music program. We did almost nothing but religious music. Rutter's Gloria, Bach's Christ Lag in Todesbanden, The Gospel Mass, Walton's Coronation Te Deum, Mozart's Requiem and a host of Spirituals. It was almost exclusively religious music in a Public High School. Without being in the room or hearing the context you can CLEARLY see that there was some kind of indoctrination of our young.... Except there wasn't. It was simply because that was the best music for our program.

So unless you can find something that says that there were religious lessons going on (and having gone to a Catholic grade school for 9 years, I've been in music classes where the music comes with a heaping dose of proselytizing)then how bout you just settle down. It's hard enough getting music taught in public schools. Let's not let them use this as an excuse to defund it any further with a "this is why you can't have nice things" wag of the finger.
 
2012-08-15 02:14:28 PM
sorry can't support the school here other songs could be used for the purpose those songs are being used for.
 
2012-08-15 02:23:12 PM

edip1976: Context, sir. Context. I went to a public high school in the early 90's with an amazing music program. We did almost nothing but religious music. Rutter's Gloria, Bach's Christ Lag in Todesbanden, The Gospel Mass, Walton's Coronation Te Deum, Mozart's Requiem and a host of Spirituals.


Context, sir. Context. This is not Bach in high school. This is "Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep" in elementary school. Let 'em sing "The Inky-Dinky Spider," it'd teach 'em the same thing. (Minus the religious bit, of course.)
 
2012-08-15 02:23:21 PM

This text is now purple: Dansker: So for Bach, you've got what, the Brandenberg Concertos and that's it?

No, are you freaking kidding me? All his concertos, hundreds of opuses for lute, cello, string quartets... You know I'm talking about Johann Sebastian, right?

Of his 50 year career, Bach spent 6 of them not employed by the Church. The majority of his body of work was commissioned by the dominant religious authority in Europe. It may not have lyrics, but most of Bach's output was ecclesiastical.


He wrote hundreds and hundreds of works that have absolutely no religious reference. You're grasping at straws, and your original comment was that all music from the Baroque era (you know, they held a lot of dance parties back then), all Bach, Beethoven, Handel and Mozert is religious. It was a dumb thing to say. But it's okay, we all make mistakes.

And the Catholic Church loves it some finale to the 9th Symphony.

Everybody does.
 
2012-08-15 02:27:21 PM

yingtong: IIRC, we just had a thread a few days ago about Missouri's state constitutional amendment that supports the right of people to pray in government-funded locations, as long as it's voluntary.

IIRC, the Fark reaction ot that was, "what a huge waste of time, nobody's trying to ban religious speech."

And now we have subby assuming it's a slam-dunk that any songs with potentially religious content should obviously be banned from school music classes.

Watching secular humanists is fun.. as long as you can make your head spin fast enough.


Here's the two big differences: pray time in a public building isn't directly paid for by the state, music class in public elementary school is.

Praying in a government building is voluntary. No one is telling you to pray, nor are they stopping you from doing it. Having kids sing songs about your particular religion in class is not. Kids are expected to participate.

If you need these two things explained, perhaps you should take some elementary classes, you might get to live this problem first hand.
 
2012-08-15 02:47:16 PM

Mr. Right: The Freedom From Religion Foundation would have absolutely no problem if school children were singing about Allah.


Presumably so. Remarkably, that would be something on which they and the faux news crowd could agree, as it's safe to assume that the latter would maintain their "historical material" stance in that scenario.
 
2012-08-15 02:50:02 PM
Substitute "music education" for "historical."

I'm John Smith.

Also, Happy Holidays, everyone!
 
2012-08-15 03:08:21 PM

Proteios1: I'm ok with a big bunch of bullies...I mean lawyers threatening these nearly bankrupt school districts to purge even the slightest Christian reference and all non commercial holidays and events. I think big money from outside groups or even out of state groups should constantly threaten schools, those who run it and those vile teachers to conform, go bankrupt or get out!


That's just stupid talking, there. If they were following the law, there would be no issue. If they didn't insist on NOT following the law, there would be no issue.

You know what Christian privilege sounds like? It sounds exactly like what you just said.
 
2012-08-15 03:08:52 PM
Merry Happyday. Who's John Smith?
 
2012-08-15 03:17:22 PM

Dansker: Merry Happyday. Who's John Smith?


Old Simpsons reference, from one of the Treehouse of Horrors episodes. The two zombies going to their respective graves, one John Smith getting into another John Smith's.

(Paraphrased)
Zombie John Smith I: "Excuse me, I'm John Smith."
ZJS II: "John Smith 1884?"
ZJS I: "My mistake!"

(I was just saying I screwed that post up. "My mistake!")

/Old
 
2012-08-15 03:21:56 PM

ten foiled hats: Dansker: Merry Happyday. Who's John Smith?

Old Simpsons reference, from one of the Treehouse of Horrors episodes. The two zombies going to their respective graves, one John Smith getting into another John Smith's.

(Paraphrased)
Zombie John Smith I: "Excuse me, I'm John Smith."
ZJS II: "John Smith 1884?"
ZJS I: "My mistake!"

(I was just saying I screwed that post up. "My mistake!")

/Old


Ah, I remember, and I get it.

/onions, belt
 
2012-08-15 03:26:56 PM

Dansker: He wrote hundreds and hundreds of works that have absolutely no religious reference. You're grasping at straws, and your original comment was that all music from the Baroque era (you know, they held a lot of dance parties back then), all Bach, Beethoven, Handel and Mozert is religious. It was a dumb thing to say. But it's okay, we all make mistakes.


The vast majority of music from the Baroque era and earlier was liturgical. A significant percentage of instrumental music was liturgical but nearly all vocal music was. Bach may have written hundreds of non-liturgical works, but only a handful are vocal. Same with most other composers.

Choirs are stuck with singing vocal music. It's hard to sing Bach's 5th Brandenburg Concerto. Much easier to sing "Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan"

It would be appropriate for our times, however, for frequent staging of his Coffee Cantata
 
2012-08-15 03:33:19 PM

ten foiled hats: edip1976: Context, sir. Context. I went to a public high school in the early 90's with an amazing music program. We did almost nothing but religious music. Rutter's Gloria, Bach's Christ Lag in Todesbanden, The Gospel Mass, Walton's Coronation Te Deum, Mozart's Requiem and a host of Spirituals.

Context, sir. Context. This is not Bach in high school. This is "Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep" in elementary school. Let 'em sing "The Inky-Dinky Spider," it'd teach 'em the same thing. (Minus the religious bit, of course.)


Again, miss the point. As long as there is no religious lesson taking place here, it doesn't violate the separation of C & S. It's not a prayer. It's lyrics. It becomes just as annoying as sanitizing things so as not to offend. Ridiculous waste of time. And it doesn't matter what level of education we're talking about. Plenty of grade schools could handle (pun intended) the Alleluia section of the Messiah, and have done so. It's one of the most recognizable pieces of music in the western world. Is it liturgical worship or a secular performance? DEPENDS ON THE CONTEXT.
 
2012-08-15 03:50:25 PM

Ryan2065: Wait, since when was Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep a song? It's a prayer:

Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
And if I die before I wake
I pray the Lord my soul to take

I'm not against singing songs in school that are religious, but come on, you can't just put you prayers to music to get them in schools.


Since Metallica?

Wait, I'll bet that isn't the version they use in the school.
 
2012-08-15 04:37:10 PM

edip1976: ten foiled hats: edip1976: Context, sir. Context. I went to a public high school in the early 90's with an amazing music program. We did almost nothing but religious music. Rutter's Gloria, Bach's Christ Lag in Todesbanden, The Gospel Mass, Walton's Coronation Te Deum, Mozart's Requiem and a host of Spirituals.

Context, sir. Context. This is not Bach in high school. This is "Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep" in elementary school. Let 'em sing "The Inky-Dinky Spider," it'd teach 'em the same thing. (Minus the religious bit, of course.)

Again, miss the point. As long as there is no religious lesson taking place here, it doesn't violate the separation of C & S. It's not a prayer. It's lyrics. It becomes just as annoying as sanitizing things so as not to offend. Ridiculous waste of time. And it doesn't matter what level of education we're talking about. Plenty of grade schools could handle (pun intended) the Alleluia section of the Messiah, and have done so. It's one of the most recognizable pieces of music in the western world. Is it liturgical worship or a secular performance? DEPENDS ON THE CONTEXT.


And again, we're back to context. Which, honestly, I don't think either of us can fully determine from the article. I don't know how many public grade schools have performed any section of The Messiah for their communities, but if plenty have, good on them. That's a work that's far less easily replaced in a proper music curriculum than, say, "He's Got The Whole World In His Hands." Also, if we're talking about an elective class, (do they have those in elementary school?) then I'd say all bets are off. But if the situation is such that children are being required to sing "Thank You For The World So Sweet" as part of their kindergarten class, I find that a somewhat unnecessary exclamation of faith foisted upon people who, frankly, may not be comfortable with the material. (And shouldn't be made to be. I get your point about unnecessary sanitation, but I find this to be unnecessary proselytizing. And there we are.)

All this said, I don't have children, but if I did, this would probably piss me off for about five minutes, and then I'd be over it. FFS, it's elementary music class, nothing to get my panties in too much of a bunch over. Yeah, I get that. (Same for the other side, too, though.)

Also, yes, nice pun. (You use that one a lot, don't you? Easy, but still good.)
 
2012-08-15 04:50:52 PM
Mr. Right:
The vast majority of music from the Baroque era and earlier was liturgical. A significant percentage of instrumental music was liturgical but nearly all vocal music was. Bach may have written hundreds of non-liturgical works, but only a handful are vocal. Same with most other composers.

Yes, but the man said: "no music history (Chant and Baroque were sponsored by the Catholic Church), no Bach, no Beethoven, no Handel, no Mozart," and he wasn't just talking about vocal music, since he brought up the Brandenburgh Concertos himself.
Can't we just agree that's wrong?
 
2012-08-15 06:03:23 PM

I sound fat: gimmegimme: I'm shocked...SHOCKED that the Fox News story is short on details. Even though I'm the biggest atheist who ever atheisted, I do think that context is important. High school chorus kids can learn a LOT by singing Handel's Messiah. That's fine. Shoot, you could really impress me and perform Mozart's Requiem or the Ninth. If this school is putting together a program of Negro spirituals for Black History Month...fine.

However, this is an elementary school. I really don't think there's anything you can learn from "He's got the whole world in his hands" that you can't learn from any song that isn't referring to a specific deity.

And Billy Donahue, King of Fake Outrage, please stop patronizing us by claiming that "Michael, Row Your Boat Ashore" doesn't refer to a specific deity.

He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got the sun and the rain in His hands,
He's got the moon and the stars in His hands,
He's got the wind and the clouds in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got the rivers and the mountains in His hands,
He's got the oceans and the seas in His hands,
He's got you and he's got me in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got everybody here in His hands,
He's got everybody there in His hands,
He's got everybody everywhere in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.


Where is the specific diety you speak of? Couldnt they be talking about Lord Obama himself?


Capitalizing the H makes it a proper noun. So who is "He"?
 
2012-08-15 06:13:13 PM

gimmegimme: Capitalizing the H makes it a proper noun. So who is "He"?


Apparently President Obama, although I sound fat doesn't seem to know the proper title for a president, so I'm not sure I'd trust him on interpreting a song either.
 
2012-08-16 01:16:35 AM

Metaphysical Ham Sandwich: STRYPERSWINE: "The whole point to being an atheist is not giving a crap!"
-atheist Adam Carolla on militant atheism

I don't "give a crap" because I'm an atheist. I "give a crap" because I'm a humanist and I'm sick of theocrats farking up my world and the world I'm leaving to my children.


Oh, stop being so goddamn preachy. Jesus.
 
2012-08-16 01:31:24 AM

ecmoRandomNumbers: As a music teacher and an atheist...

This is farking stupid. Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.


This. I'm a Jew who grew up in the South. There are plenty of actual religious intrusions into our school system to be upset about. Are we also going to get angry if they have pictures of the Pieta in a history book? I'm a Jew who grew up in the South.
 
2012-08-18 04:45:01 AM

BoothbyTCD: ecmoRandomNumbers: As a music teacher and an atheist...

This is farking stupid. Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.

This. I'm a Jew who grew up in the South. There are plenty of actual religious intrusions into our school system to be upset about. Are we also going to get angry if they have pictures of the Pieta in a history book? I'm a Jew who grew up in the South.


Can you teach literature, history, musical history or art history without including religion? nope.
Should those classes be forced to include islam, judaism, religions of asia, along with the art and history? hell yes.

The real threat to these people, is that if you actually teach proper, comparative religion, the end results is students going "WHAT THE fark?! Why have my parents been lying to me my who life???"
 
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