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(Fox News)   Yet another school district decides that it is in their best interest to waste a boat load of money losing a court battle. This time they want to keep religious songs in music class because it isn't really praying if you're singing   (foxnews.com) divider line 260
    More: Asinine, religious musics, school districts, Bill Donohue, New York City Department of Education, Freedom From Religion Foundation, summer break, atheists, sings  
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5481 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Aug 2012 at 5:18 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-14 11:52:00 PM
I implore people with an open mind to read the article. The songs are being used as historical references. It's up to each individual student to decide how and what they take away from each song. Students are not being encouraged to interpret any of the songs as having religious meaning. They may have religious symbols of religious connotations in the lyrics, but they won't have a religious meaning to someone who isn't religious. I wish they did, but you don't see me writing to schools asking them to remove non-religious songs. Atheism failing to see the double standard here and I'm not surprised.
 
2012-08-15 12:15:13 AM
I actually have no problem with songs of this nature, provided they have the proper context.
 
2012-08-15 12:20:53 AM
I work at a music store that is in the middle of hosting our annual new music reading clinic, and this came up in today's session, so I'm getting a big kick...

For whatever it's worth, I'm agnostic and it bothers me when a song sung in a school choir can't mention Jesus or even Santa (and many can't). There are LOADS of wonderful, historic works that get tossed completely aside and it does nothing to further music.

I think I've disagreed with Ignite Ice on things in the past, but in this case, I have to agree. There is too much that gets thrown out to the detriment of the student's education.

It's art, it's history, and it's important - lighten the fark up.
 
2012-08-15 12:45:37 AM
So are they going to require reading the bible as a historical document next?

Actually that might be fun.
 
2012-08-15 12:47:02 AM
Wait, since when was Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep a song? It's a prayer:

Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
And if I die before I wake
I pray the Lord my soul to take

I'm not against singing songs in school that are religious, but come on, you can't just put you prayers to music to get them in schools.
 
2012-08-15 12:53:37 AM
"He's Got The Whole World In His Hands" isn't a religious song, is it? I thought it was an Allstate Insurance jingle.
 
2012-08-15 12:55:57 AM
I'm shocked...SHOCKED that the Fox News story is short on details. Even though I'm the biggest atheist who ever atheisted, I do think that context is important. High school chorus kids can learn a LOT by singing Handel's Messiah. That's fine. Shoot, you could really impress me and perform Mozart's Requiem or the Ninth. If this school is putting together a program of Negro spirituals for Black History Month...fine.

However, this is an elementary school. I really don't think there's anything you can learn from "He's got the whole world in his hands" that you can't learn from any song that isn't referring to a specific deity.

And Billy Donahue, King of Fake Outrage, please stop patronizing us by claiming that "Michael, Row Your Boat Ashore" doesn't refer to a specific deity.
 
2012-08-15 01:02:35 AM
I'm about as atheist as it gets, and I have no problem with religious songs being used in music class and for chorus / choir / etc. When I was in varsity choir in High School, I remember we sang a really nice version of "All God's Children Got Shoes" or whatever the actual title is. It was fun.

At a high school I worked at in Tokyo, their music club did an AMAZING version of "Deep River" and a pretty good job with "Soon Ah Will Be Done". Not a one of those students was Christian.

You can enjoy the music without believing the message.

In this case, are the teachers making the students sing these songs in order to praise their deity? Or are they just singing them because they are traditional, generally easy to arrange, and fairly well known? The former is a problem. The latter is not.
 
2012-08-15 01:20:19 AM
As a music teacher and an atheist...

This is farking stupid. Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.
 
2012-08-15 01:51:51 AM

ecmoRandomNumbers: As a music teacher and an atheist...

This is farking stupid. Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.


Alright music teacher, exactly what lessons are the elementary school kids learning from a song with these lyrics that they couldn't get from any other number of children's songs?

Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
If I should die before I wake
I pray the Lord my soul to take
Keep me safe throughout the night
And wake me with the morning light
 
2012-08-15 01:52:36 AM

ecmoRandomNumbers: As a music teacher and an atheist...

This is farking stupid. Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.


As an appreciator of music and an atheist, I completely agree. This shiat is bananas, B-A-N-A-N-A-S.

/I never said I appreciated good music
 
2012-08-15 01:59:45 AM

Ryan2065: ecmoRandomNumbers: As a music teacher and an atheist...

This is farking stupid. Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.

Alright music teacher, exactly what lessons are the elementary school kids learning from a song with these lyrics that they couldn't get from any other number of children's songs?

Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
If I should die before I wake
I pray the Lord my soul to take
Keep me safe throughout the night
And wake me with the morning light


Maybe they're performing the John Cage arrangement.
 
2012-08-15 02:12:11 AM

SilentStrider: I actually have no problem with songs of this nature, provided they have the proper context.


so the psalms are all songs. you have no problem with them being song in school?
The problem is that the slope slides. The protestants have been using this "we are an xian nation" to repress everyone else since pretty much day one. FFS, they tried to ban catholic schools??? LOL

So yah, the pendulum has been swinging slowly and ponderously in the direction of separate church and state. State schools? no church.

yes, there is history, music and art. which require mentioning religion and its place in both of them.
and to some degree, these people are just being lazy, rather than trying to brain wash the minions.

but kids who regret xian, should be allowed to opt out right? LOL
automatic A's in music if they dont want to sing the song praising satan, I mean jesus, I mean ...

bah
you would think by now we would be a little further along with this silliness.
 
2012-08-15 02:14:10 AM

miss diminutive: ecmoRandomNumbers: As a music teacher and an atheist...

This is farking stupid. Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.

As an appreciator of music and an atheist, I completely agree. This shiat is bananas, B-A-N-A-N-A-S.

/I never said I appreciated good music


toss in art and history.
so much is COMPLETELY intertwining with religion. which isnt the same as we should be teaching religion in school .....

it isnt like they cant find a billion kid songs, right?
But if the goal is teaching history, it could be argued that all religion be excluded until their little maggot brains are more developed.

sigh
 
2012-08-15 02:17:57 AM
There is a huge difference between Handel Messiah or Coltrane's A Love Supreme and whatever crap some Christian Rock group put out.

Teaching the former is fine, the latter is indoctrination. I just don't know where that line is.
 
2012-08-15 02:25:32 AM

EvilEgg: There is a huge difference between Handel Messiah or Coltrane's A Love Supreme and whatever crap some Christian Rock group put out.

Teaching the former is fine, the latter is indoctrination. I just don't know where that line is.


You know what, I wouldn't mind if some elementary school wanted to have their chorus sing the beautiful songs of Faith + 1:

buttonpushingmonkey.files.wordpress.com

"I need you in my life, Jesus
I can't live without you, Jesus.
And I just want to feel you deep inside me, Jesus."

"The body of Christ, sleek swimmer's body all muscled up and toned...
The body of Christ, oh, what a body, I wish I could call it my own..."

"I want to get down on my knees and start pleasing Jesus.
I wanna feel his salvation all over my face..."
 
2012-08-15 03:12:51 AM

ecmoRandomNumbers: Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.


Agreed. There are far more serious church/state entanglement problems than this.

The school should add on Leonard Cohen's "Halleluia" for teh lulz.
 
2012-08-15 03:18:51 AM
Do you know why no one sings Hanukkah songs in school? Not because they're Jewish. But because they read like Ronnie James Dio lyrics:

"To sever the towering cypress
sought the Aggagite, son of Hammedatha,
But it became [a snare and] a stumbling block to him
and his arrogance was stilled.
The head of the Benjaminite You lifted
and the enemy, his name You obliterated
His numerous progeny - his possessions -
on the gallows You hanged.


"Bare Your Holy arm
and hasten the End for salvation -
Avenge the vengeance of Your servants' blood
from the wicked nation.
For the triumph is too long delayed for us,
and there is no end to days of evil,
Repel the Red One in the nethermost shadow
and establish for us the seven shepherds.
"

i.imgur.com
 
2012-08-15 03:26:10 AM

BarkingUnicorn: "He's Got The Whole World In His Hands" isn't a religious song, is it? I thought it was an Allstate Insurance jingle.


i6.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-15 04:28:27 AM

Somacandra: Do you know why no one sings Hanukkah songs in school? Not because they're Jewish. But because they read like Ronnie James Dio lyrics:


Check out this rockin' Mormon song. It's awesome because they're singing about going to a different planet. And the last several verses are extremely brainwashy.

1. If you could hie to Kolob
In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward
With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning,
Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation,
Where Gods and matter end?
Methinks the Spirit whispers,
"No man has found 'pure space,'
Nor seen the outside curtains,
Where nothing has a place."

3. The works of God continue,
And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression
Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter;
There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit;
There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;
There is no end to might;
There is no end to wisdom;
There is no end to light.
There is no end to union;
There is no end to youth;
There is no end to priesthood;
There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.
There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.
 
2012-08-15 05:28:52 AM
www.whydontyou.org.uk
 
2012-08-15 05:29:35 AM

gimmegimme: I'm shocked...SHOCKED that the Fox News story is short on details. Even though I'm the biggest atheist who ever atheisted, I do think that context is important. High school chorus kids can learn a LOT by singing Handel's Messiah. That's fine. Shoot, you could really impress me and perform Mozart's Requiem or the Ninth. If this school is putting together a program of Negro spirituals for Black History Month...fine.

However, this is an elementary school. I really don't think there's anything you can learn from "He's got the whole world in his hands" that you can't learn from any song that isn't referring to a specific deity.

And Billy Donahue, King of Fake Outrage, please stop patronizing us by claiming that "Michael, Row Your Boat Ashore" doesn't refer to a specific deity.


I went to a public high school and was in the choir for years. We sang everything imaginable: Negro spirituals, chamber music, classics (including Mozart's Requiem in NYC and Handel's Messiah), even modern rock and pop stuff.

It was hugely interesting to me, and it still is. Choir was fun and educational, and it gave me more opportunities than I could have hoped for. I'm agnostic, but I liked the religious music because it made me think. Plus singing stuff correctly always makes part of my brain tingle.

/I'm white, and my choir director was black
//I miss choir
 
2012-08-15 05:35:08 AM

gimmegimme: I'm shocked...SHOCKED that the Fox News story is short on details. Even though I'm the biggest atheist who ever atheisted, I do think that context is important. High school chorus kids can learn a LOT by singing Handel's Messiah. That's fine. Shoot, you could really impress me and perform Mozart's Requiem or the Ninth. If this school is putting together a program of Negro spirituals for Black History Month...fine.

However, this is an elementary school. I really don't think there's anything you can learn from "He's got the whole world in his hands" that you can't learn from any song that isn't referring to a specific deity.

And Billy Donahue, King of Fake Outrage, please stop patronizing us by claiming that "Michael, Row Your Boat Ashore" doesn't refer to a specific deity.


He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got the sun and the rain in His hands,
He's got the moon and the stars in His hands,
He's got the wind and the clouds in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got the rivers and the mountains in His hands,
He's got the oceans and the seas in His hands,
He's got you and he's got me in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got everybody here in His hands,
He's got everybody there in His hands,
He's got everybody everywhere in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.


Where is the specific diety you speak of? Couldnt they be talking about Lord Obama himself?
 
2012-08-15 05:37:21 AM
heck, why not just bankrupt every school district in america and we won't have to worry about our petty differences anymore. it will be all pork & beans with the kids at home all day playing Sega and drinking goofy juice.

perhaps changes need to be made here and there, that is life, that is progress. making lawyers wealthy is not the route to go.
 
2012-08-15 05:37:36 AM
I am an atheist and I have no problem with religious songs in schools. They aren't going to affect the kids any more then singing Folsom Prison Blues will make you 'shoot a man in Reno, just to watch him die'.
 
2012-08-15 05:38:59 AM
(Shrug) All they have to do is include songs from other faiths. But you know what? Something tells me that ain't happenin'.
 
2012-08-15 05:46:18 AM

gimmegimme: Somacandra: Do you know why no one sings Hanukkah songs in school? Not because they're Jewish. But because they read like Ronnie James Dio lyrics:

Check out this rockin' Mormon song. It's awesome because they're singing about going to a different planet. And the last several verses are extremely brainwashy.

1. If you could hie to Kolob
In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward
With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning,
Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation,
Where Gods and matter end?
Methinks the Spirit whispers,
"No man has found 'pure space,'
Nor seen the outside curtains,
Where nothing has a place."

3. The works of God continue,
And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression
Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter;
There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit;
There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;
There is no end to might;
There is no end to wisdom;
There is no end to light.
There is no end to union;
There is no end to youth;
There is no end to priesthood;
There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.
There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.


Aren't there any songs for Scientology?

Hey, weird- THERE AREN'T. No hymns, "faith" music, or droning prayer songs. Unless they're secret, which I guess is plausible. But usually something like this leaks, sooner or later.

There's one weird Canadian Scientology video called "We Stand Tall", but this seems like a release for external use, not something the members themselves sing. And the church doesn't seem to be endorsing it, like it was made by a contracting ad firm, the church hammered it away, yet a copy exists.
 
2012-08-15 05:49:38 AM

Rufus Lee King: Really, though, when, for instance, are hymnals going to become illegal? Going to have to burn them all!

[fcit.usf.edu image 471x375]


Why are you posting pictures of the Good, Christian reaction to everything they disagree with?
 
2012-08-15 05:49:55 AM
You can't teach classical choral music without including religious works in Latin. If the kid can't speak Latin what's the issue with indoctrination? Granted, my musical education was far too Eurocentric due to overemphasizing such music from 6th grade on, but that's a different issue.
 
2012-08-15 05:51:33 AM
I'm sure no matter what happens, FOX NEWS is going to help pick up the tab for the school district. That way, it will not be responsible for causing the school district's debt in the first place.

FOX NEWS is the reason Americans hate Americans. Not the "liberal media," FOX NEWS.
 
2012-08-15 05:53:19 AM

EvilEgg: There is a huge difference between Handel Messiah or Coltrane's A Love Supreme and whatever crap some Christian Rock group put out.

Teaching the former is fine, the latter is indoctrination. I just don't know where that line is.


Wherever some permenently butt-hurt whining parent or FOX NEWS says, clearly. Screw education, we're out to prove our viewpoint is the only viewpoint.
 
2012-08-15 05:54:17 AM

ignite ice: I implore people with an open mind to read the article. The songs are being used as historical references. It's up to each individual student to decide how and what they take away from each song. Students are not being encouraged to interpret any of the songs as having religious meaning. They may have religious symbols of religious connotations in the lyrics, but they won't have a religious meaning to someone who isn't religious. I wish they did, but you don't see me writing to schools asking them to remove non-religious songs. Atheism failing to see the double standard here and I'm not surprised.


I implore people to shut the hell off FOX NEWS and think for themselves. No matter what, they're lying. Every time.
 
2012-08-15 05:58:11 AM

gimmegimme: Ryan2065: ecmoRandomNumbers: As a music teacher and an atheist...

This is farking stupid. Religious music is an inextricable part of any study of music, music history, or repertoire.

Alright music teacher, exactly what lessons are the elementary school kids learning from a song with these lyrics that they couldn't get from any other number of children's songs?

Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
If I should die before I wake
I pray the Lord my soul to take
Keep me safe throughout the night
And wake me with the morning light

Maybe they're performing the John Cage arrangement.


The 609-year version?
 
2012-08-15 06:00:46 AM
If it's not a big deal to have them, it's also not a big deal to remove them.
 
2012-08-15 06:01:08 AM

gimmegimme: Somacandra: Do you know why no one sings Hanukkah songs in school? Not because they're Jewish. But because they read like Ronnie James Dio lyrics:

Check out this rockin' Mormon song. It's awesome because they're singing about going to a different planet. And the last several verses are extremely brainwashy.

1. If you could hie to Kolob
In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward
With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning,
Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation,
Where Gods and matter end?
Methinks the Spirit whispers,
"No man has found 'pure space,'
Nor seen the outside curtains,
Where nothing has a place."

3. The works of God continue,
And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression
Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter;
There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit;
There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;
There is no end to might;
There is no end to wisdom;
There is no end to light.
There is no end to union;
There is no end to youth;
There is no end to priesthood;
There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.
There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.


Burma-Shave!
 
2012-08-15 06:02:10 AM

ignite ice: I implore people with an open mind to read the article. The songs are being used as historical references. It's up to each individual student to decide how and what they take away from each song. Students are not being encouraged to interpret any of the songs as having religious meaning. They may have religious symbols of religious connotations in the lyrics, but they won't have a religious meaning to someone who isn't religious. I wish they did, but you don't see me writing to schools asking them to remove non-religious songs. Atheism failing to see the double standard here and I'm not surprised.


They fail to see a lot.
 
2012-08-15 06:03:38 AM

Man On Pink Corner: (Shrug) All they have to do is include songs from other faiths. But you know what? Something tells me that ain't happenin'.


Well now, all those other religious songs? Yeah, those ain't all historical-like.
 
2012-08-15 06:05:16 AM
So include a couple of Satanic ditties. If they're still good with it, they're fine.
 
2012-08-15 06:08:07 AM

MinkeyMan: I am an atheist and I have no problem with religious songs in schools. They aren't going to affect the kids any more then singing Folsom Prison Blues will make you 'shoot a man in Reno, just to watch him die'.


I'm shooting a man in Reno right now so I'm getting a kick out of...

/ No, not really.

/ It's actually New Braunfels.
 
2012-08-15 06:11:30 AM
Yet another atheist group gets its overly-sensitive panties in a wad over something that is really no big deal.
 
2012-08-15 06:13:34 AM

Cybernetic: Yet another atheist group gets its overly-sensitive panties in a wad over something that is really no big deal.


If it's not a big deal to keep, it's not a big deal to remove.
 
2012-08-15 06:14:37 AM

gimmegimme: Maybe they're performing the John Cage arrangement.


Now that's funny right there
 
2012-08-15 06:15:05 AM

SkunkWerks: Man On Pink Corner: (Shrug) All they have to do is include songs from other faiths. But you know what? Something tells me that ain't happenin'.

Well now, all those other religious songs? Yeah, those ain't all historical-like.


Which songs would they be?

I mean, surely this isn't a straw man you're knocking down, right?
 
2012-08-15 06:17:42 AM

I sound fat: gimmegimme: I'm shocked...SHOCKED that the Fox News story is short on details. Even though I'm the biggest atheist who ever atheisted, I do think that context is important. High school chorus kids can learn a LOT by singing Handel's Messiah. That's fine. Shoot, you could really impress me and perform Mozart's Requiem or the Ninth. If this school is putting together a program of Negro spirituals for Black History Month...fine.

However, this is an elementary school. I really don't think there's anything you can learn from "He's got the whole world in his hands" that you can't learn from any song that isn't referring to a specific deity.

And Billy Donahue, King of Fake Outrage, please stop patronizing us by claiming that "Michael, Row Your Boat Ashore" doesn't refer to a specific deity.

He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got my brothers and my sisters in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got the sun and the rain in His hands,
He's got the moon and the stars in His hands,
He's got the wind and the clouds in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got the rivers and the mountains in His hands,
He's got the oceans and the seas in His hands,
He's got you and he's got me in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.

He's got everybody here in His hands,
He's got everybody there in His hands,
He's got everybody everywhere in His hands,
He's got the whole world in His hands.


Where is the specific diety you speak of? Couldnt they be talking about Lord Obama himself?


Only one entity has the personal and possessive pronouns capitalised in English. I think we both know which entity that is.
 
2012-08-15 06:18:54 AM
Strange how all of these 'educational' songs never seem to educate kids using songs that promote any other religion except Christianity.

As usual, if it's just about education let's see what happens if we start singing songs about Allah, and watch the reaction.
 
2012-08-15 06:20:10 AM
I'd like to ask Mr. Donohue "What if it were songs praising or mentioning the Devil, Buddha, or some pagan deity and the school made the same claim of the songs being educational?"
 
2012-08-15 06:20:53 AM
I remember a framed cross-stitch thing hanging on the wall of my Sunday school room that read "He who sings prays twice." So... I guess even if you sing half a bar you're technically praying. According to.. cross stitchers.
 
2012-08-15 06:21:42 AM
Now I am the last person to champion "religion in schools" if that is what this is. But really, THIS:

"This is not minor. It's predatory to conduct this toward a young, captive audience who would be truant if they didn't attend public school," Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the Freedom from Religion Foundation, told FoxNews.com.

made me think more of a PETA freak attacking the teaching of "The Itsy-Bitsy Spider" than a reasoned complaint against religion in schools. At this rate, the anti-religion people will be banning high school productions of "Godspell" (not that that would be bad, but for different reasons) and "Jesus Christ Superstar," and with about as much foundation.

Sometimes you have to say, paraphrasing Freud, that a song is just a song.
 
2012-08-15 06:25:35 AM
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
 
2012-08-15 06:25:57 AM

shoegaze99: Which songs would they be?

I mean, surely this isn't a straw man you're knocking down, right?


Surely you're not this stupid, right?
 
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