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(New York Daily News)   Paul Ryan renounces Ayn Rand, like most readers did when they were 19   (nydailynews.com) divider line 420
    More: Obvious, Ayn Rand, Thomas Aquinas, WNYC, Mitt Romney  
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4410 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 Aug 2012 at 6:25 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-14 11:11:44 PM
You know, it wouldn't be too hard to turn Atlas Shrugged into a communist novel.

You just make all the characters good honest laborers instead of titans of industry. The people keeping them down are the managers who steal their labor and ideas. Have overdone scenes where a worker thinks of a way to help the company save money and increase workplace safety. He tells his manager who tells the guy to work in his spare time on a proposal and if he does he'll give him a bonus. The guy slaves away in all his spare time to produce details plans, research, projections and everything. When the work is finished the manger takes credit, screws him on the bonus, and then fires the worker to cover his tracks when he complains. The manager also alters the plan in such a way that it squeezes out a few extra dimes by eliminating the safety part and lots of workers get maimed in a horrible accident. shiat like this keep happening to the righteous main characters. Then some mysterious figure starts going to all the good honest workers and telling them about this communist paradise where they get the full rewards of their hard work. While all this is going on there's this one guy who is going around the country knocking over banks to fund the communist utopia. He justifies himself by regarding himself as a Robin Hood (an actual one, not a reverse one). In the end there can be a big Marxist speech about how the people who work and sweat to make the world work are so great and everyone else just sucks, and then of course all the middle managers and all the robber barons burn because society fails without the good honest workers, who live on in their communist utopia without the burden of the capitalists.

Ta-Da! And in this version, the people in the new utopia actually know how to farm so they don't all die after a few hard winters.
 
2012-08-14 11:13:24 PM

Triumph: FTA:"I reject her philosophy," Ryan says firmly. "It's an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a person's view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas,"

God help us.


I think you've got it, at least, as much as you ever will!
 
2012-08-14 11:13:51 PM

PsiChick: Pocket Ninja: I'm willing to bet quite a bit of money that if you selected, at random, any 10 individuals who have ever posted in a thread about Ayn Rand (either favorably or unfavorably), locked them in a room without any pre-warning or internet access, and then asked them each to provide a 2-minute summary of "Atlas Shrugged," no more than 2 or 3 would be able to do so.

The percentage will go up slightly higher for books by Orwell, but not by much.

Atlas Shrugged is a novel in which Ayn Rynd lays out her main ideals on egocentrism as the driving force of the world, using a semi-Heroic Journey pattern with dystopic settings and themes.

/Less than two minutes, but it's what the average writer needs to know.


The funny thing is that egocentrism (at least as far as self-interest is concerned) *IS* the driving force of the world. The problem she runs into is denying that egocentrism also accounts for the Free Rider Effect (e.g. "people will dump off shiatty externalities onto others and the best outcome to society is necessarily ruined if said people aren't FORCED to comply with the appropriate remedies"... i.e. yes, Ayn Rand, you stupid, nasty coont, there *are* things in this world that can't be solved by farking freewheeling it).

So anyhow, it's even funnier that some idiots still can't identify that painfully-simple side of the human nature coin.

Funnier yet is that the dead cumdumpster's swing-and-a-miss re: this most rudimentary aspect of our species' behavior lives on, only to farking ruin everything for nearly everyone on the planet.

/for that matter, they also think that everything can be assigned property rights
//jesus farking christ, you stupid farkholes, how the fark does that work on, say, AIR
///god i farking hate free market ideologues
 
2012-08-14 11:16:47 PM

gameshowhost: /for that matter, they also think that everything can be assigned property rights
//jesus farking christ, you stupid farkholes, how the fark does that work on, say, AIR


He figured it out:
www.girlontheright.com
 
2012-08-14 11:19:15 PM

Phil Moskowitz: America is the only country that could take "wah! they took my daddies company so those communists are the debil" ethos and raise it to literature. It's a disgrace, and is very telling how damaged the US is even in what some consider intellectual circles.


History is littered with countries that persecuted people and destroyed works for being against the government imposed(or even socially imposed) moral standards. The fact that some Russian chick can immigrate here and write something that would have gotten her gulagged in Russia is a testament to the openness of this nation. People like you are the disgrace. Maybe you don't like the story, maybe you don't like the author, maybe you don't like the philosophy, but that isn't a problem compared to damning America because it allowed someone to write a goddamn motherfarking book you farking tool.
 
2012-08-14 11:19:48 PM

Felgraf: RoyFokker'sGhost: timujin: Neither Rand, nor any Objectivist I've met, truly understood/understand* one of the core tenets of their philosophy, rational self-interest.

.
.
.
*how exactly are you supposed to switch between tenses when talking about both the living and the dead?


There's only one person I can think of that's come close to being a true Objectivist...

[cdn.ifanboy.com image 850x478]

Seriously, Ditko designed The Question and an earlier character. Mr. A (named after the logical and Objectivist principal of 'A is A'), on the ideas of Objectivism. Regardless of environment or 'justifications', a criminal is still a criminal and must be punished. Those who try to rationalize their crimes are denying the personal responsibility of the choice they made; the Question and Mr. A remind the criminals of this fact.

But aren't they themselves criminals, for being vigilantes?

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: But without it, we never would have gotten Bioshock, so, in the end, mostly worth it.

Yes you would have. It was called System Shock 2. It was also better.
/No seriously, Bioshock is System Shock 2 Underwater and Watered Down.


System Shock 2 is System Shock with Alien Parasites and Watered Down.

/And Ryan and Rand both suck.
 
2012-08-14 11:22:42 PM
Ryan's speech outlined his fascination with Rand - whose novels preach personal accountability and a rejection of altruism

Wasn't Rand pretty much anti-religion and pro-abortion as well? I've always wondered how these right-to-lifers worship Rand without their heads asploding.
 
2012-08-14 11:31:55 PM

Pincy: Ryan's speech outlined his fascination with Rand - whose novels preach personal accountability and a rejection of altruism

Wasn't Rand pretty much anti-religion and pro-abortion as well? I've always wondered how these right-to-lifers worship Rand without their heads asploding.


And JFK was pro-life, yet he's still revered by northeastern Democratic elite. That was ages ago. Who cares?
 
2012-08-14 11:32:15 PM
could it be rand was foretelling the internet, with galt luring people from the real world to the virtual in search of reason?
 
2012-08-14 11:45:38 PM

21-7-b: could it be rand was foretelling the internet, with galt luring people from the real world to the virtual in search of reason?


lol
 
2012-08-14 11:45:42 PM

Pincy: Ryan's speech outlined his fascination with Rand - whose novels preach personal accountability and a rejection of altruism

Wasn't Rand pretty much anti-religion and pro-abortion as well? I've always wondered how these right-to-lifers worship Rand without their heads asploding.


Same way they worship the Bible while ignoring pretty much everything Jesus said, particularly about aiding the poor.
 
2012-08-14 11:49:29 PM

Snapper Carr: Criticisms of the philosophy aside, you do not interrupt the narrative of your story for 300 pages of manifesto.

Atlas Shrugged breaks one of the cardinals rules of fiction - "Show, don't tell"

And that's not even bringing up the terrible dialog and one dimensional characters.


Reminds me of Native Son. Read that in my senior year AP English class in high school. Sooooo much communist demagoguing.
 
2012-08-14 11:52:19 PM
http://www.spudworks.com/article/66/2/

The Abridged Atlas Shrugged
02.19.2001

"It sure is hard to find good men now-a-days. I wonder what the hell is going on," Dagny smirked to herself as she entered the towering monolith to capitalism that was the headquarters of Taggart Transcontinental. "There are so few men like Hank Rearden, the man who single handedly invented a new greenish tint metal that is far stronger than steel," she said bursting in on her brother. "There are too many like you, Jim," she mocked.

"Well, if that's the case, you so-not-a-woman-and-I-can't-believe-a-woman-wrote-this, why don't you go redeem yourself by sleeping with him. By being his servile little mistress you'll serve the cause of capitalism far better than you have," Jim mocked.

Dagny smirked in her mocking way. Yes, she thought, she had tried that with another man, and it seemed so right until he, gasp, went to the other side. He became a slacker. Hank. Hank, Hank, Hank. Don't you know you're all I dream about though I don't actually do anything about it until page five-hundred? "I know what I want Jim, but what do you want?"

"Who is John Galt?"

"Don't say that! It's people asking that question that leads me to believe something sinister is happening in society. I think he's the destroyer." She mocked herself silently inside. How could a grown woman think such a thing? Oh, who was she kidding? She knew that women weren't much better than children anyway. Everyone knew that. It was a fluke she had any position in the railroad at all.

"It is I, Francisco d'Anconia, of the oldest most wealthy copper fortune this side of the Atlantic, and don't I want you to know that I'm pissing it all away for a grand reason that I won't tell you!" His perfect physique burst through the door in a mocking manner few could achieve but which he achieved perfectly. He had seen someone do the act before and fail and, after a single try at six months old, he was better at mockingly bursting through doors than anyone on the planet.

"Slacker," Dagny screamed with indignation and a pointed finger.

"Yes Dagny, you silly silly woman, I may seem a slacker to you, but after ten pages of explanation you will know that it is you who slack and it is I who serve a higher cause which will not be explained for another seven hundred pages. Remember, I am a d'Anconia which goes without saying that I know what I am doing," he mocked. He was so perfect at mocking. No man mocked like Francisco. How she wanted to be back in his arms. Were it not for... no! He was a slacker! The very embodiment of slack yet... yet he slacked with purpose. Even that was perfect. No man slacked like Francisco.

"What in capitalism's name is going on here," Hank yelled with bursting anger from the bottom of his manly lungs as he lunged through the door. It wasn't as perfect as Francisco's mockery, no man could touch that, but it was with the kind of power only a capitalist could muster. Dagny fluttered with lust.

"What the hell are you all doing in my office," Jim demanded weekly, the only way a socialist could demand.

"Hank, we must talk," Francisco said in a softly mocking way. Hank's heart fluttered with love he suddenly felt for the man. Even if he was a slacker, could my heart be wrong, Hank asked himself. He reached for Francisco's hand, wanting to hold him close.

"No," Dagny screamed with indignation and a pointed finger. "Please, I want him to take me and show me what a weak little girl I really am! That's what all women want!" Hank looked torn.

"Hey everybody," said a quiet voice from behind Hank. Hank took up most of the doorway with his manly capitalistic bulk. The crowd parted like the sea and a well groomed handsome man with a shock of boyish blond hair stood at the foot of it.

"John, you're not supposed to show up for eight-hundred more pages," Francisco said mockingly.

"Well, I got bored with the wait and figured what the hell. So... who wants to know what this is all about?" John smiled and every man's heart in the room melted. Dagny felt the overwhelming urge to become his servant and to clean up after him. That's what all women wanted after all, she figured.

"I do," Rearden capitalisticly demanded.

"Well, I couldn't deal with any government intervention in business and think that any kind of socialist tendency is kind of a bad idea, so me and my buddies, who all just happen to be the rich, powerful, and industrial, went on strike to bring the world to its knees." John said as he tossed back his blond hair with a light twitch of his head.

"For what purpose," Jim nearly cried. Socialists are such babies, thought John mockingly.

"Well, I don't like having to pay taxes or think about anything other than business. And, because I'm such an inexplicably charismatic guy, I figured I'd just get my industrialist buddies to back me," John said with a hint of mockery.

"Look," Jim sobbed. "The world is crumbling without you guys!"

"Well, once it's toast, we'll get to work but until then, who's up for some skiing in Colorado?"
 
2012-08-14 11:53:44 PM

Thrag: You know, it wouldn't be too hard to turn Atlas Shrugged into a communist novel.


I have said this over and over. Atlas Shrugged is a novel about a mysterious revolutionary who gradually draws the oppressed classes together to engage in collective direct action culminating in a huge wildcat strike that brings down the oppressive government. It is badly-written utopian socialist literature run through a quick search and replace.
 
2012-08-14 11:54:02 PM

Fart_Machine: twat_waffle: Teufelaffe: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?

It's pretty derpy. Bad writing and the purest form of the "I've got mine, fark you" philosophy. If you're in the mood for an author with Objectivist leanings, try The Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind. Much better writing, and he manages to hide his "Individualism GOOOD, collectivism BAAAD" pretty well until the fourth or fifth book.

That was my experience. However, his villains and heroes are all caricatures. Even in the first book. Richard Cypher/Rahl was a paragon of virtue while Darken Rahl was so unbelievably evil just for the sake of being evil.

I think it was the fifth book (Soul of the Fire) where the Objectivism became apparent, and the next one (Faith of the Fallen) was Terry Goodkind's attempt to beat his readers over the head with Atlas Shrugged. Seeing that Goodkind was heavily influenced by Ayn Rand affected the quality of the entire series, even those books where it isn't apparent.

/read the entire series.
//sucked after Temple of the Winds
///got even worse after Chainfire
////barely finished the series
//unemployment gave me a lot of free time

Faith of the Fallen is where I gave up on the series because at that point Goodkind didn'd give a shait about his characters and wanted to bash you over the head with the "message".


I got the same vibe, but I had already made an investment and I wanted to see how he would end the series.
 
2012-08-14 11:54:28 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?


The only reason I knew of Rand was because of the virgin-titillating rape scene in "The Fountainhead." All my interest in her vanished when I discovered real erotica.
 
2012-08-15 12:00:03 AM
alternatively

http://www.mopie.com/blog/2006/01/atlas-shrugged-by-ayn-rand.html

Saturday, January 07, 2006
Atlas Shrugged (by Ayn Rand)
ATLAS SHRUGGED: THE ABRIDGED VERSION (with spoilers)

AYN RAND
Hello, I'm Ayn Rand. I wrote a novel based on my Objectivist philosophy called The Fountainhead, but I don't think 700 pages was quite enough to get my point across, so I will write the exact same novel, only it will take 1100 pages this time.

READERS
Hey, great.

HEROINE
I'm Dagny Taggart. I am a railroad tycoon, woman-in-a-man's-world, stunningly beautiful heroine. I am the only person capable of running this railroad. I am the only woman in the universe worth a damn. I am also the only woman in the universe with a real job. I am basically the only woman in this novel.

LOVE INTEREST #1
I have worshiped you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, from afar for my whole life.

HEROINE
That's nice.

LOVE INTEREST #2
I have worshiped you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, naked on the forest floor. Yet I will nobly step aside in the name of noble idealism, despite the fact that I love you and want you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, desperately.

HEROINE
Okay.

LOVE INTEREST #3
I worship you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn. Let us have creepy rape fantasy sex now. I will not ask permission to do all these kinky things to you, but luckily you want to be forced into all the kinky things, you dirty biatch.

HEROINE
This is clearly true love! Stick it in me.

ALL
Who is John Galt?

AYN RAND
I am not telling. Instead, please listen to someone pontificate about my Objectivist philosophy for a while.

SOMEONE
[Pontificates]

VILLAINS
There are many of us, but we are all exactly the same. We are caricatures of evil socialists and embodiments of pure evil. Let us create a perfect socialist world order ruled by the inept! We all suck! Socialism sucks! Ha ha!

HEROES
We are all exactly the same. We are noble and perfect and have very angular and insolent faces. We can read each other's minds and the minds of everyone else in this novel, leaving less room for misunderstanding and more room for pontificating. And we are all in love with Dagny Taggart, the only woman in the universe worth a damn.

ALL
Who is John Galt?

VILLAIN
[Threatens hero.]

HERO
[Flips coin]
If it's heads, I will gaze apathetically. If it's tails, I will laugh heartily.

VILLAIN
Although these are the only two things any of you heroes have done for the past 800 pages, I am shocked at this response! How could you! How dare you!?!

HERO
I will now pontificate about Ayn Rand's philosophy. It has been at least 50 pages since you've heard it.

AYN RAND
It is so convenient that all of my heroes are in perfect agreement about my philosophy so that their pontificating is so interchangeable.

ALL
Who is John Galt?

JOHN GALT
Hello. In this, the culmination of all the pontificating, I will explain Ayn Rand's philosophy for a full 57 pages. No, I am not kidding. This one monologue will last for 57 pages. Oh and also, I love Dagny.

DAGNY
I love you too. Man, this is really going to suck for Love Interest #3.

LOVE INTEREST #3
Despite my passionate love for you and enjoyment of our rape sex, and the fact that there is no other woman on earth worth a damn, and the fact that I sacrificed my life's passion on your behalf, and that I spent my entire fortune to get a divorce to be with you, I will now nobly step aside in the name of noble idealism.

DAGNY
Great! I will miss our creepy rape sex. Farewell.

LOVE INTEREST #3
Bye.

READER
Wait, what?

ATLAS
[Shrugs]

THE END
 
2012-08-15 12:06:41 AM
this offers another take, and suggests adding some thomas aquinas. who knew?

http://ktcatspost.blogspot.co.uk/2008/11/review-of-atlas-shrugged.htm l

Sunday, November 02, 2008
A Review of Atlas Shrugged

I just finished listening to the unabridged Atlas Shrugged on 42 (!) CDs. I'll admit I abridged the thing myself as portions of it were rather tiresome, but I would bet that I heard about 90% of the book.

Premise: If you haven't read the book, the general theme is that as the government increases the tax and regulatory burden on the productive to serve the needy, more and more productive people opt out of society (going John Galt in modern parlance). They recognize that they are becoming beasts of burden for everyone else and they simply quit and disappear from society. The end result is catastrophic.

Summary: For me, the book is a classic. The themes within it are timeless and as I read it, I saw applications of it throughout my life. At work, at home, in the elections, the concepts of Atlas Shrugged are everywhere. I consider myself pretty well-read, but this book revolutionized the way I see many things. Despite its immense size, I highly recommend it.

Random Thoughts

In the book, none of the main characters have children. This allows them to behave like children. Going full on John Galt and opting out of society is an act of petulant childishness that is possible only if you have no tie to the future. Children tie you to the future and force you to remain in society and try to make it as good as it can be. While I see the themes of this book being played out with greater and greater strength in the US, there is not much of a chance I would go John Galt in that way.

Of course, Tuesday may change all that. Who knows.

The conflict in the book is cultural, not personal. Society is divided into producers and looters. The popular culture within the book and within America today takes from the producers and gives to the looters. As the plot progresses, more and more is taken from the producers to give more and more to the looters. The majority of Americans, both in the book and in real life, speak in terms of "need" as the primary motivation for action and disdain those who produce.

Example: Millions of Americans are without health insurance. They need it. We must take from the producers and give to the needy that they may have health insurance. At no time is the concept of "What have they done to earn it?" ever raised.

In the book, producers can understand the looters' mentality, but not the other way around. Looters see producers as evil and greedy. This is like the popular view of Exxon in real life. Looters do not understand that producers are the key to civilization until enough of them drop out and society begins to fall apart. Even then, they cling to the concepts of rewarding need and punishing greed as they increase the load on the ever-dwindling set of producers.

Example: California today.

Discouraged by high costs and strict regulations, just under 60 percent of California business leaders interviewed for a new study said they have policies to restrict job growth in the state or move jobs to other locations in the United States....

The consulting firm [Bain] interviewed chief executives or senior managers of about 50 small, medium and large companies with extensive operations in the state.

About 40 percent said their companies have an explicit policy to move jobs elsewhere in the United States, with Texas cited as the most frequent destination. Not counting those companies that must stay in California, such as retailers or health care providers, the proportion of businesses that said their policy is to move jobs rose to 55 percent.

Hmmm. I guess there's more than one way to go John Galt. I have to admit, I have considered moving to another state when I retire...

Like I said before, the problem in the book is cultural. Even when confronted with the concrete results of their actions, the looters can't see the causes. As society crumbles they continue to speak in terms of what they need. The politicians continue to speak in terms of the government developing new plans to deal with one crisis after another when, in fact, the crises were created by government plans in the first place.

Example: The recent financial catastrophe was generated by the quasi-governmental mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac deciding to change their strict loan purchase policies and begin buying subprime loans. People needed to be able to buy houses and it was unreasonable to expect them to earn the houses. Now that mortgage defaults are skyrocketing, the government is working on mortgage bailout plans for needy borrowers who can't afford the homes they bought.

In the end, it is the looters' philosophy that fails. The collapse of society is a result of the doomed culture of consumption over production. All kinds of policies and government arrangements are tried, but nothing stops the inexorable decline of civilization because their mindset is centered around need.

If you go back and watch the debates, particularly the Democratic primary debates, I think you'll see this exact mindset on display.

In the end, the keys to success - hard work, thrift, skills and education, personal responsibility and so forth - allow the producers to escape the cataclysm. I won't spoil the book and reveal how. Here in the real world, a mix of Dave Ramsey, St. Thomas Aquinas and a solid set of valuable skills allow you to go John Galt in a variety of ways while the looters among us spiral downwards.

More on that in later posts.

Posted by K T Cat
 
2012-08-15 12:11:09 AM
"I reject her philosophy," Ryan says firmly. "It's an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a person's view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas," who believed that man needs divine help in the pursuit of knowledge. "Don't give me Ayn Rand," he says.

Wait, his problem with Rand is the stuff that she got more or less right from an American perspective? The not relying on gods and dogma in politics, the social contract being in nature not unlike a business contract, women being allowed to privately purchase the medical care they feel they need, this is your problem?

This is like saying you used to worship Hitler, but got over it when you realized that he was into things you hate, like national Highways, fuel-efficient cars, and breathing oxygen. What the hell, man?

Snapper Carr: Criticisms of the philosophy aside, you do not interrupt the narrative of your story for 300 pages of manifesto.

Atlas Shrugged breaks one of the cardinals rules of fiction - "Show, don't tell"

And that's not even bringing up the terrible dialog and one dimensional characters.


Atlas Shrugged was published in the 1950s, the literary tradition it inherited was more "golden age of science fiction" than the writers-workshop "show, don't tell" stuff of the '90s you're referring to. It was not considered necessary at the time to try to stuff your agenda into character dialogue or try to conceal it, if you had something to say on the order of there being a moral to the story you just stuck it right in there, or had a character outright monologue it to the audience, and that was fine.

This is because the literary tradition in question was informed by theater and radio, which were somewhat limited in special effects, and a much greater attention span and focus was expected from the audience. '90s writing and the "show, don't tell" rule are informed by an entertainment culture based on movies/TV stuffed with special effects and 15-second ad spots.

What I'm saying here is that there wasn't actually anything wrong with her writing at the time, literary rules of thumb like the one you're quoting go in and out of style all the time, and the specific one you're referencing wasn't in yet when the book you're talking about came out. You're sort of complaining that someone isn't wearing a sun-dress during a New York winter, here.

//Not that either of her door-stoppers were particularly great, but there's nothing terribly bad about them. Nothing wrong with L. Ron Hubbard's pulp SciFi, either, like Mz. Rand his work takes a lot of flak it hasn't earned because of politics.

//Albeit both the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are science fiction, with all the fundamental alterations to the basic workings of society that implies. So there is something wrong with taking them entirely seriously. I take Randians citing the books about as seriously as I would someone basing their life on Lord of the Rings or the Green Lantern comics.
 
2012-08-15 12:11:17 AM
Wow. Silly Jesus is amazing.

Hat's off for doing yoeman's work defending Rand and Objectivism.

Now imagine if you could Marshall all that knowledge and energy toward the defense of a worthwhile philosophy!

/I kid. You clearly think highly of it and you have kept your cool after hours of this.
 
2012-08-15 12:12:12 AM

21-7-b: this offers another take, and suggests adding some thomas aquinas. who knew?

http://ktcatspost.blogspot.co.uk/2008/11/review-of-atlas-shrugged.htm l

Sunday, November 02, 2008
A Review of Atlas Shrugged

lotsofdogs.jpg


That is pretty hilarious. It would be a huge blow to society if KT Cat stopped blessing us with her (his? its?) bounty of sucky blog.
 
2012-08-15 12:15:46 AM

BojanglesPaladin: Wow. Silly Jesus is amazing.

Hat's off for doing yoeman's work defending Rand and Objectivism.

Now imagine if you could Marshall all that knowledge and energy toward the defense of a worthwhile philosophy!

/I kid. You clearly think highly of it and you have kept your cool after hours of this.


I know, it's sort of like watching someone defend "Charles in Charge" for hours for no good reason. Ayn Rand sucks and yes I've read her bullshiat. Spending that much time defending even one little bit of her "work" shows that you really aren't very smart and probably need a hobby.
 
2012-08-15 12:17:05 AM
wikipedia

Rand acknowledged Aristotle as her greatest influence[113] and remarked that in the history of philosophy she could only recommend "three A's"-Aristotle, Aquinas, and Ayn Rand
 
2012-08-15 12:20:50 AM
"I reject her philosophy," Ryan says firmly. "It's an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a person's view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas," who believed that man needs divine help in the pursuit of knowledge. "Don't give me Ayn Rand," he says.

www.nydailynews.com
 
2012-08-15 12:26:49 AM

Confabulat: BojanglesPaladin: Wow. Silly Jesus is amazing.

Hat's off for doing yoeman's work defending Rand and Objectivism.

Now imagine if you could Marshall all that knowledge and energy toward the defense of a worthwhile philosophy!

/I kid. You clearly think highly of it and you have kept your cool after hours of this.

I know, it's sort of like watching someone defend "Charles in Charge" for hours for no good reason. Ayn Rand sucks and yes I've read her bullshiat. Spending that much time defending even one little bit of her "work" shows that you really aren't very smart and probably need a hobby.


I don't know. There's a few decent ideas in the pile of worthless or terrible ideas.

But yeah, I don't know if I would have stayed in Fark and kept swinging to defend my OWN philosophy.
 
2012-08-15 12:37:49 AM

Pincy: Wasn't Rand pretty much anti-religion and pro-abortion as well? I've always wondered how these right-to-lifers worship Rand without their heads asploding.


Ryan's argument now is that Rand influenced his thinking on economics but that he rejects objectivism.
 
2012-08-15 12:39:39 AM
Ayn Rand had great tits.
 
2012-08-15 12:44:27 AM

SockMonkeyHolocaust: Ayn Rand had great tits.


Ewwwww
 
2012-08-15 12:46:23 AM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?


It's Clarence Thomas's favorite book. He makes all of his clerks read it.
 
2012-08-15 12:47:13 AM
most people aren't going to read the works, or even abridged versions, but you can see how they can clearly be spliced together under interpretation to provide a coherent message that encourages people to focus on traditional values given as mentioned above. that's a pretty good message and, frankly, will provide a far more solid rhetorical and political foundation than mere slogans. things like inter-generational contract underpin society, but have been eroded, probably with increasing rapidity due to technological advancement. happiness comes from the balance of security and freedom and that requires an underpinning of certainty within society
 
2012-08-15 12:48:21 AM

SockMonkeyHolocaust: Ayn Rand had great tits.


She liked birds?


i.telegraph.co.uk
 
2012-08-15 12:50:55 AM

timujin: Neither Rand, nor any Objectivist I've met, truly understood/understand* one of the core tenets of their philosophy, rational self-interest.


Funny thing about rational self interest. You can use it to do things that are/were abhorrent to Ayn Rand, like be a moocher or a looter.
 
2012-08-15 12:53:59 AM

Bucky Katt: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?

It's Clarence Thomas's favorite book. He makes all of his clerks read it.


History's greatest monster.
 
2012-08-15 01:03:18 AM

HellRaisingHoosier: Lando Lincoln: Atlas Shrugged is about this superhuman business guy named John Galt who was super awesome at everything he did and one day he just checked out of society because he was tired of all of the mindless bureaucratic red-tape regulations and union bullshiat that surrounds running a business in a modern society like ours. And people freaked out because without John Galt around, everything was going to shiat. And then other really important business tycoons did the same thing. And then all of the union workers and politicians were really sad and miserable and jobless, because the super awesome job creators weren't around to lead them to prosperity and super awesome living. So the moral of the story is, keep sucking rich guy dick or they'll fark you in the ass.


Is this legitimately what the book is about?


Well, John Galt wasn't a CEO, he was just an employee and no one gave a shiat about him except when he claimed to invent some energy machine or something. But the government started cracking down on competition or something. And a CEO of a steel company invented some new metal. And the CEO of a train company wanted to use the metal or something. But the government wouldn't let them or something. And the economy got worse or something. And so the government tried to fix it and farked things up worse or something, starting a chain reaction of government fix and worse economy or something. And so a bunch of rich owners got fed up and escaped society and went to live with John Galt and his energy machine or something. Read the book a long time ago, just to say I read it and know what I was talking about if people brought it up, but man it was not easy to get through. It's not well written and lectures you and says the same shiat over and over again for 1000 pages.
 
2012-08-15 01:04:48 AM

21-7-b: Example: Millions of Americans are without health insurance. They need it. We must take from the producers and give to the needy that they may have health insurance. At no time is the concept of "What have they done to earn it?" ever raised.


They have life. And isn't that what pro-life is supposed to be about? Protecting life for life's sake?

And of course we already give medical care to the needy in the form of ER care they can't afford which is much more expensive for the producers than giving the needy health insurance.
 
2012-08-15 01:05:00 AM

BojanglesPaladin: But way too much rape, threats of rape, thoughts of rape, rape as plot device, rape as background filler, rape as character builder, rape as punishment, and then domination and torture as a path to self actualization and empowerment (see the Mord-Sith).


You said "rape" seven times.


Silly Jesus: Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: Silly Jesus: Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."

I didn't have to read Mein Kampf, the Turner Diaries, or the Unibomber Manifesto either.

I read the first two so that I could discuss them intelligently.


Uh huh. And you read Playboy just for the articles.
 
2012-08-15 01:07:39 AM

Gimmick: The plot of Atlas Shrugged in 12 seconds.


http://www.spudworks.com/article/66/2/
 
2012-08-15 01:12:53 AM

jigger: Well, John Galt wasn't a CEO, he was just an employee and no one gave a shiat about him except when he claimed to invent some energy machine or something.


Howard Roark was just a new architect starting out in his field, but his architecture was so brilliant and amazing that he refused to listen to the demands of his clients or the input of his co-workers and superiors and built what he wanted anyway. Instead of being drummed out of the field, (oh he had a few rough days at first when people didn't always recognize his superiority to them), he because the greatest architect ever.

This is beyond sci-fi and just purely in the realm of fantasy. Yet Randians think this is how life is supposed to work. It's perfect for self-centered immature teenage boys convinced of their own superiority of everyone around them. That's sort of the defining characteristic of a Randian -- I'm better than everyone else, and it's the world's fault they don't recognize it, not mine. Most people grow out of that phase. Randians cling to it like a life preserver.
 
2012-08-15 01:19:29 AM
Wow, the whole Fark Dependent brigade continues to pee their panties when it comes to Rand. Strange.

Well, not that strange, I guess. She loathed authoritarian collectivists, and that's you.
 
2012-08-15 01:22:37 AM

Thrag: You know, it wouldn't be too hard to turn Atlas Shrugged into a communist novel.


Rand saw the world through communist eyes, thought America was the reverse direct opposite of communism, and went with it.
 
2012-08-15 01:25:46 AM

notShryke: Wow, the whole Fark Dependent brigade continues to pee their panties when it comes to Rand. Strange.

Well, not that strange, I guess. She loathed authoritarian collectivists, and that's you.


Funny coming from a person who just called a bunch of individuals on the internet posting anonymously a "collective."

Sounds pretty Randian to me. You're better than us, am I right?
 
2012-08-15 01:27:35 AM
It takes a real individual to disagree with other people posting on the internet, you know. A rugged individualist. Someone against the grain. A true libertarian hero. Like you.
 
2012-08-15 01:29:11 AM
"the rejection of altruism."

Pretty much sums-up all conservative christians.

Jesus would be so proud.
 
2012-08-15 01:32:26 AM

notShryke: Wow, the whole Fark Dependent brigade continues to pee their panties when it comes to Rand. Strange.

Well, not that strange, I guess. She loathed authoritarian collectivists, and that's you.


Oh and by the way, it was Paul Ryan that peed his pants, not us. We're just mocking him for being too scared to admit he worships her now that he's running for national office and he knows she's embarrassing to most mature adults and conservative Christians alike.
 
2012-08-15 01:37:34 AM

Confabulat: jigger: Well, John Galt wasn't a CEO, he was just an employee and no one gave a shiat about him except when he claimed to invent some energy machine or something.

Howard Roark was just a new architect starting out in his field, but his architecture was so brilliant and amazing that he refused to listen to the demands of his clients or the input of his co-workers and superiors and built what he wanted anyway. Instead of being drummed out of the field, (oh he had a few rough days at first when people didn't always recognize his superiority to them), he because the greatest architect ever.

This is beyond sci-fi and just purely in the realm of fantasy. Yet Randians think this is how life is supposed to work. It's perfect for self-centered immature teenage boys convinced of their own superiority of everyone around them. That's sort of the defining characteristic of a Randian -- I'm better than everyone else, and it's the world's fault they don't recognize it, not mine. Most people grow out of that phase. Randians cling to it like a life preserver.


I only saw the movie version of the Fountainhead. I still think it's funny that Roark got away with bombing the housing complex because the jury was won over by his lecture about individualism or whatever. He bombed farking buildings. Someone else's buildings, not his buildings, just ones he partly designed. But you know, the jury understands, because they realize he's a misunderstood artist.
 
2012-08-15 01:46:08 AM

jigger: I only saw the movie version of the Fountainhead. I still think it's funny that Roark got away with bombing the housing complex because the jury was won over by his lecture about individualism or whatever. He bombed farking buildings. Someone else's buildings, not his buildings, just ones he partly designed. But you know, the jury understands, because they realize he's a misunderstood artist.


I totally forgot about all that. I think by the time I got to that point in the novel my brain had grown numb and refused to commit any more to memory. I do remember he got some successful rape out of the whole thing though, and isn't that any successful man's true measure of victory? (according to Ayn Rand).
 
2012-08-15 01:46:33 AM
I approve any motion to transform this thread into a "System Shock 2 was better than Biosho#ERROR#3343443--343--3444433#ERROR
334333
3334333
#ERROR#
REBOOTING TO DEFAULT A.I.

#3#

#3#

#3#

Shut up, stupid libs. All of you.
 
2012-08-15 02:01:14 AM

SockMonkeyHolocaust: Ayn Rand had great tits.


I would have expected more from a GIS for "Ayn Rand tits"
 
2012-08-15 02:06:53 AM
FTA:

"Rand did not believe in compromise, so in that sense she's not a practical guide for a politician who wants to get things done," Burns said.

Sounds like the current Republican party.

And the difference between the parties is dynamics.

The Democrats don't do anything.
The Republicans do nothing.
 
2012-08-15 02:12:36 AM

21-7-b: most people aren't going to read the works, or even abridged versions, but you can see how they can clearly be spliced together under interpretation to provide a coherent message that encourages people to focus on traditional values given as mentioned above. that's a pretty good message and, frankly, will provide a far more solid rhetorical and political foundation than mere slogans. things like inter-generational contract underpin society, but have been eroded, probably with increasing rapidity due to technological advancement. happiness comes from the balance of security and freedom and that requires an underpinning of certainty within society


I'm stunned by this. literally
 
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