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(New York Daily News)   Paul Ryan renounces Ayn Rand, like most readers did when they were 19   (nydailynews.com) divider line 420
    More: Obvious, Ayn Rand, Thomas Aquinas, WNYC, Mitt Romney  
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4415 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 Aug 2012 at 6:25 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-14 04:37:39 PM  
"I am no longer fascinated by the woman. She was but flesh, she was mortal and flawed and imperfect. Now I know that it is not the woman but the ideas that she espoused that I should worship. It is the ideas, the ideals, the capitalistic ideological purity, that command my affections and steer my policy."
 
2012-08-14 04:41:19 PM  
Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?
 
2012-08-14 04:46:14 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?


The first I ever heard of it was from Machelle Malkin. I didn't bother looking into it any further. The cult like following it gets reminds me of The Turner Diaries.
 
2012-08-14 04:49:10 PM  
Wouldn't big banks be considered leechers under Ayn Rand?

/haven't read any of her books
 
2012-08-14 04:51:17 PM  
I'd rather read a thousand farking elf songs by J.R.R. Tolkien than one chapter of Ayn Rand's crap.
 
2012-08-14 04:52:44 PM  
I've got an idea

Why dont we all pitch in some money and buy thousands of flip-floops and pass them out at Romney/Ryan events?
 
2012-08-14 04:59:58 PM  
I read The Fountainhead in my early 20s on a good friend's recommendation, with no real preconceptions of her work or philosophy. It's one of those books that you actually get angry at the author for 1) rambling for pages and pages about utter unrealistic nonsense and pretending it's wisdom; and 2) being a terrible writer on every level while doing that.

If you're going to feed me crap, make it entertaining crap. Rand couldn't even do that. I felt like taking a shower to get that book off me when I was done. Horrible characters, horrible philosophy, just a total disaster of a book. I have heard Atlas Shrugged is better but I'd probably prefer just taking an icepick to my eyeballs rather than try.
 
2012-08-14 05:00:39 PM  

Ghastly: I'd rather read a thousand farking elf songs by J.R.R. Tolkien than one chapter of Ayn Rand's crap.


Tom Bombadil Shrugged
 
2012-08-14 05:04:50 PM  
FTA:"I reject her philosophy," Ryan says firmly. "It's an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a person's view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas,"

God help us.
 
2012-08-14 05:06:21 PM  
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

-- Paul Krugman
 
2012-08-14 05:07:28 PM  
i waded through the fountainhead when i was 15 or so. i tried atlas shrugged, but gave up a third of the way through. it was just so badly written.
 
2012-08-14 05:08:36 PM  

FlashHarry: "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

-- Paul Krugman


www.bartcop.com

Hmmm..different attribution. Funny either way.
 
2012-08-14 05:21:19 PM  
why do I not believe him....?
 
2012-08-14 05:22:34 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: Hmmm..different attribution. Funny either way.


looks like your'e right - krugman was quoting rogers.
 
2012-08-14 05:24:48 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: FlashHarry: "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

-- Paul Krugman

[www.bartcop.com image 377x408]

Hmmm..different attribution. Funny either way.


Krugman apparently quoted it in his blog: Link
 
2012-08-14 05:25:56 PM  
I'm willing to bet quite a bit of money that if you selected, at random, any 10 individuals who have ever posted in a thread about Ayn Rand (either favorably or unfavorably), locked them in a room without any pre-warning or internet access, and then asked them each to provide a 2-minute summary of "Atlas Shrugged," no more than 2 or 3 would be able to do so.

The percentage will go up slightly higher for books by Orwell, but not by much.
 
2012-08-14 05:27:27 PM  

Weaver95: why do I not believe him....?


Could you step in here for a moment?

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-08-14 05:35:00 PM  
My favorite part of Atlas shrugged was when the girl kept trying on hats and her friends were all, like, girrrrrrl. That hat is way too floppy for your face, and then they were all just laughing because after all, who needs that man? He doesn't even know what he lost, girl. He doesn't even know. You are so pretty. I'm serious. I would kill for your hair. OR FAKE AN ORGASM.

The end.
 
2012-08-14 05:36:02 PM  

Nadie_AZ: Weaver95: why do I not believe him....?

Could you step in here for a moment?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 200x153]


no. that room is wall to wall 'hello kitty' and I left my flame thrower at home.
 
2012-08-14 05:37:38 PM  
Neither Rand, nor any Objectivist I've met, truly understood/understand* one of the core tenets of their philosophy, rational self-interest.

.
.
.

*how exactly are you supposed to switch between tenses when talking about both the living and the dead?
 
2012-08-14 05:37:42 PM  
I had to read the Fountainhead in high school, and the entire class pretty much agreed the author had to be clinically insane.
 
2012-08-14 05:44:02 PM  

Pocket Ninja: I'm willing to bet quite a bit of money that if you selected, at random, any 10 individuals who have ever posted in a thread about Ayn Rand (either favorably or unfavorably), locked them in a room without any pre-warning or internet access, and then asked them each to provide a 2-minute summary of "Atlas Shrugged," no more than 2 or 3 would be able to do so.

The percentage will go up slightly higher for books by Orwell, but not by much.


That's because very few people can get through more than a few chapters of he crap before giving up. Not even the derpiest libertarians can get through an entire book of hers without skipping through a lot of the crap. In that regard she is very like Tolkien (nobody reads the farking elf songs).
 
2012-08-14 05:47:13 PM  

Pocket Ninja: I'm willing to bet quite a bit of money that if you selected, at random, any 10 individuals who have ever posted in a thread about Ayn Rand (either favorably or unfavorably), locked them in a room without any pre-warning or internet access, and then asked them each to provide a 2-minute summary of "Atlas Shrugged," no more than 2 or 3 would be able to do so.


And I'm willing to bet 9/10 of farkers that post in gun control threads can't accurately describe being shot. *ptbtpttb*
 
2012-08-14 05:47:56 PM  

Ghastly: In that regard she is very like Tolkien (nobody reads the farking elf songs).


YOU LIE. Tolkien is scintillating reading. He was a storyteller's storyteller.

Frodo set down the ring and sank to the earth in repose. From his backpack, Sam produced a flask of water and some Elven Lembas, and from his waistpouch a small, sealed tin. The tin had been crafted by the tinsmith L'Ortheala'i of the second line of Durenorathala during the Second Age, on the High Night of Pancrea when the Solenil were running in the crystal water from high Holitla and the Darklmunnerors lay yet beneath the graven stones of their forebears who had not yet descended from the lofty heights of Arameir to craft their stony halls. Inside the tin lay a single pat of Glumeliian Butter, which had not been seen in the Shire since the first days of the last days of Sam's mother's father, known to some as his grandfather, who had traveled the Windy Trail beneath the Solemn Mist of the Mount of Holitakea to beseech the Caravan Master of Noriktha, himself of the second line of Durenorathala, to attend the upcoming Festival Harvest of Firhtyta and sell some butter there. Which Sam's mother's father/Grandfather did buy and save in the shallows of the cool Hoytr's water, and which Sam had dutifully carried with him from the moment of their departure.

With the butter knife that had had been crafted by his second cousin Hal, who had been borne during the Third Coming of the Second Rising of the Fourth Turning of the Seventh House and had traveled to Genedain to learn the craft of butter knife forging from the Elven smith Lorelairlahdsthgfksdghjk, son of Ka, Sam spread a pat of Glumeliian Butter on the Lembas and handed the small morsel to Frodo.

"Mmm," Frodo said. "This is some very tasty butter."
 
2012-08-14 05:52:35 PM  

Pocket Ninja: Ghastly: In that regard she is very like Tolkien (nobody reads the farking elf songs).

YOU LIE. Tolkien is scintillating reading. He was a storyteller's storyteller.

Frodo set down the ring and sank to the earth in repose. From his backpack, Sam produced a flask of water and some Elven Lembas, and from his waistpouch a small, sealed tin. The tin had been crafted by the tinsmith L'Ortheala'i of the second line of Durenorathala during the Second Age, on the High Night of Pancrea when the Solenil were running in the crystal water from high Holitla and the Darklmunnerors lay yet beneath the graven stones of their forebears who had not yet descended from the lofty heights of Arameir to craft their stony halls. Inside the tin lay a single pat of Glumeliian Butter, which had not been seen in the Shire since the first days of the last days of Sam's mother's father, known to some as his grandfather, who had traveled the Windy Trail beneath the Solemn Mist of the Mount of Holitakea to beseech the Caravan Master of Noriktha, himself of the second line of Durenorathala, to attend the upcoming Festival Harvest of Firhtyta and sell some butter there. Which Sam's mother's father/Grandfather did buy and save in the shallows of the cool Hoytr's water, and which Sam had dutifully carried with him from the moment of their departure.

With the butter knife that had had been crafted by his second cousin Hal, who had been borne during the Third Coming of the Second Rising of the Fourth Turning of the Seventh House and had traveled to Genedain to learn the craft of butter knife forging from the Elven smith Lorelairlahdsthgfksdghjk, son of Ka, Sam spread a pat of Glumeliian Butter on the Lembas and handed the small morsel to Frodo.

"Mmm," Frodo said. "This is some very tasty butter."


cdn.chud.com
 
2012-08-14 06:02:20 PM  
Atlas Shrugged is about this superhuman business guy named John Galt who was super awesome at everything he did and one day he just checked out of society because he was tired of all of the mindless bureaucratic red-tape regulations and union bullshiat that surrounds running a business in a modern society like ours. And people freaked out because without John Galt around, everything was going to shiat. And then other really important business tycoons did the same thing. And then all of the union workers and politicians were really sad and miserable and jobless, because the super awesome job creators weren't around to lead them to prosperity and super awesome living. So the moral of the story is, keep sucking rich guy dick or they'll fark you in the ass.
 
2012-08-14 06:03:33 PM  
what if all the John Galt wannabes up and left...and society got better for it?
 
2012-08-14 06:08:13 PM  

Ghastly: Pocket Ninja: Ghastly: In that regard she is very like Tolkien (nobody reads the farking elf songs).

YOU LIE. Tolkien is scintillating reading. He was a storyteller's storyteller.

Frodo set down the ring and sank to the earth in repose. From his backpack, Sam produced a flask of water and some Elven Lembas, and from his waistpouch a small, sealed tin. The tin had been crafted by the tinsmith L'Ortheala'i of the second line of Durenorathala during the Second Age, on the High Night of Pancrea when the Solenil were running in the crystal water from high Holitla and the Darklmunnerors lay yet beneath the graven stones of their forebears who had not yet descended from the lofty heights of Arameir to craft their stony halls. Inside the tin lay a single pat of Glumeliian Butter, which had not been seen in the Shire since the first days of the last days of Sam's mother's father, known to some as his grandfather, who had traveled the Windy Trail beneath the Solemn Mist of the Mount of Holitakea to beseech the Caravan Master of Noriktha, himself of the second line of Durenorathala, to attend the upcoming Festival Harvest of Firhtyta and sell some butter there. Which Sam's mother's father/Grandfather did buy and save in the shallows of the cool Hoytr's water, and which Sam had dutifully carried with him from the moment of their departure.

With the butter knife that had had been crafted by his second cousin Hal, who had been borne during the Third Coming of the Second Rising of the Fourth Turning of the Seventh House and had traveled to Genedain to learn the craft of butter knife forging from the Elven smith Lorelairlahdsthgfksdghjk, son of Ka, Sam spread a pat of Glumeliian Butter on the Lembas and handed the small morsel to Frodo.

"Mmm," Frodo said. "This is some very tasty butter."

[cdn.chud.com image 400x300]


Brilliant
 
2012-08-14 06:16:38 PM  

Weaver95: no. that room is wall to wall 'hello kitty' and I left my flame thrower at home.


Last time I was in a room decorated with a wall to wall hello kitty motif it was when I was a "guest" of the Abu Sayyef on Mindanao. If that's the motif in room 101 I'm not going there either.
 
2012-08-14 06:28:00 PM  

Pocket Ninja: Ghastly: In that regard she is very like Tolkien (nobody reads the farking elf songs).

YOU LIE. Tolkien is scintillating reading. He was a storyteller's storyteller.

Frodo set down the ring and sank to the earth in repose. From his backpack, Sam produced a flask of water and some Elven Lembas, and from his waistpouch a small, sealed tin. The tin had been crafted by the tinsmith L'Ortheala'i of the second line of Durenorathala during the Second Age, on the High Night of Pancrea when the Solenil were running in the crystal water from high Holitla and the Darklmunnerors lay yet beneath the graven stones of their forebears who had not yet descended from the lofty heights of Arameir to craft their stony halls. Inside the tin lay a single pat of Glumeliian Butter, which had not been seen in the Shire since the first days of the last days of Sam's mother's father, known to some as his grandfather, who had traveled the Windy Trail beneath the Solemn Mist of the Mount of Holitakea to beseech the Caravan Master of Noriktha, himself of the second line of Durenorathala, to attend the upcoming Festival Harvest of Firhtyta and sell some butter there. Which Sam's mother's father/Grandfather did buy and save in the shallows of the cool Hoytr's water, and which Sam had dutifully carried with him from the moment of their departure.

With the butter knife that had had been crafted by his second cousin Hal, who had been borne during the Third Coming of the Second Rising of the Fourth Turning of the Seventh House and had traveled to Genedain to learn the craft of butter knife forging from the Elven smith Lorelairlahdsthgfksdghjk, son of Ka, Sam spread a pat of Glumeliian Butter on the Lembas and handed the small morsel to Frodo.

"Mmm," Frodo said. "This is some very tasty butter."


Then, Frodo and Sam travelled 800 miles to the elf forest. Along the way they were shot at, stabbed, and robbed. When they got to the elf forest, they started hearing an ethereal voice...

Kleais, toth misrai
plan onc crea,
Alathandor,
pis mo be ach

ophimar walam spala
uichinal hraman poar
spole aras framana ghil
khaten cheez bhurga

olomesh prenai
sepelet prenem
freisa jumit pargala
vog on po etri


Then there was a big battle, and a whole bunch of people got killed, and then Sam and Frodo crawled up Mount Doom and dropped the ring in, so that was pretty much that for the forces of Mordor. It made Aragorn so happy that he started singing a song in Elvish.

palathama spiin coh mon
peramana, kal lwath mai shon...


...and so on, for another 800 pages.
 
2012-08-14 06:28:49 PM  

Confabulat: I read The Fountainhead in my early 20s on a good friend's recommendation, with no real preconceptions of her work or philosophy. It's one of those books that you actually get angry at the author for 1) rambling for pages and pages about utter unrealistic nonsense and pretending it's wisdom; and 2) being a terrible writer on every level while doing that.

If you're going to feed me crap, make it entertaining crap. Rand couldn't even do that. I felt like taking a shower to get that book off me when I was done. Horrible characters, horrible philosophy, just a total disaster of a book. I have heard Atlas Shrugged is better but I'd probably prefer just taking an icepick to my eyeballs rather than try.


Whoever said Atlas Shrugged is better is either lying or stupid. It's essentially a longer, more rambling version of The Fountainhead.
 
2012-08-14 06:29:17 PM  
Well now he's never going to be let into Galt's Gulch.
 
2012-08-14 06:30:56 PM  
Yes, people grow up and embrace reality. Except the people who read socialist and communist literature, they never do.

Then we elect them president and wonder why people who never grew up make such lousy presidents.

Hopefully we can put an adult back in the WH in November.
 
2012-08-14 06:31:03 PM  

Weaver95: what if all the John Galt wannabes up and left...and society got better for it?


They wouldn't, they could care less about the collectivist needs of society. They would hang around in their hoverrounds biatching about how corporate taxes are high, therefore R&D budgets are low, and therefore he, the dependent inventor who prides himself on his independence, wouldn't have any money to invent.
 
2012-08-14 06:31:59 PM  

randomjsa: Yes, people grow up and embrace reality. Except the people who read socialist and communist literature, they never do.

Then we elect them president and wonder why people who never grew up make such lousy presidents.

Hopefully we can put an adult back in the WH in November.


You sound tired, random.
 
2012-08-14 06:32:11 PM  
I admit I skipped most of the radio address. Just like I would have in real life. 50 farking pages of rambling speech is no way to win hearts and minds Mr. Galt.
 
2012-08-14 06:32:11 PM  
She was his entire reason for getting into politics, and for years he would give her books away to everyone he knew. Somehow, after years and years of worshipping her, he found out she was a crazy Russian atheist. It's good to know that this "serious" Republican does such great due diligence before swallowing an ideology hook line and sinker. He is truly the face of the modern GOP.
 
2012-08-14 06:32:17 PM  
Because a man who would cast aside a lifetime of belief for a moment of power is the kind of man I would the trust the future to.

/No, I don't like Rand.
//But he's been her disciple for his entire adult life.
///What will he cast aside next?
 
2012-08-14 06:32:19 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Well now he's never going to be let into Galt's Gulch.


that's ok. he'd do pretty well in Rapture.
 
2012-08-14 06:32:58 PM  
This is why Romney loves Ryan. Like Mitt, Paul can immediately abandon long held beliefs as soon as it becomes convenient. You don't find someone as breath takingly shallow as that every day. Mitt is extremely impressed.
 
2012-08-14 06:34:16 PM  

Weaver95: Philip Francis Queeg: Well now he's never going to be let into Galt's Gulch.

that's ok. he'd do pretty well in Rapture.


Nah, the Papists don't get raptured.
 
2012-08-14 06:35:02 PM  

Weaver95: that's ok. he'd do pretty well in Rapture.


He is entitled to the sweat of his brow, after all.
 
2012-08-14 06:35:23 PM  

randomjsa:
Then we elect them president and wonder why people who never grew up make such lousy presidents.


well yeah but don't be TOO hard on GWB. The market was imploding and banks failing over like dominoes. if he didn't turn the country socialist he'd have been the president responsible for kicking off the Great Depression 2.0. I guess he was ok with being known as the Republican president who made the country socialist instead of the guy who destroyed the country's economy.
 
2012-08-14 06:35:58 PM  
Ayn Rand Paul Ryan Gosling will be the name of my first child.

He will be a chain-smoking atheist Catholic optometrist with incredible abs and a shriveled up heartless dick who believes the gold standard and objectivism will be the saviors of humanity.

//so proud already
 
2012-08-14 06:36:36 PM  
So he keeps the things he likes about the philosophy, while ignoring all the other parts that he doesn't like, even if they are necessary to make it a coherent whole?

How very christian of him!
 
2012-08-14 06:36:37 PM  

Dalrint: Weaver95: that's ok. he'd do pretty well in Rapture.

He is entitled to the sweat of his brow, after all.


I understand that the genetic mutations are reasonably priced AND you get the insanity for free!
 
2012-08-14 06:37:44 PM  
I actually liked The Fountainhead.

Not because I agree with the "philosophy". God no. I'm pretty damned liberaltastic.

But the characters were so skewed and unrealistic as to be impressive. It's difficult to make characters that are that extreme.
 
2012-08-14 06:39:03 PM  
Ryan's renouncing Ayn Rand now? Well, this should be entertaining.

Ryan's speech outlined his fascination with Rand - whose novels preach personal accountability and a rejection of altruism- while growing up, recalling how it impacted him so much that he required his interns and staff to read both of her iconic novels. Ryan also cited in the 2005 speech character monologues from the novels that have informed his personal and political views:

hee hee! You made your staff read both of her books!
 
2012-08-14 06:39:04 PM  

Dafatone: I actually liked The Fountainhead.

Not because I agree with the "philosophy". God no. I'm pretty damned liberaltastic.

But the characters were so skewed and unrealistic as to be impressive. It's difficult to make characters that are that extreme.


And yet Dick Armey dreamed up the Tea Party and their Merry Band of Patriots, and the world hasn't stopped LULZing since.
 
2012-08-14 06:39:30 PM  

randomjsa: Yes, people grow up and embrace reality. Except the people who read socialist and communist literature, they never do.

Then we elect them president and wonder why people who never grew up make such lousy presidents.

Hopefully we can put an adult back in the WH in November.


Speaking of crowing cocks, I bet Paul Ryan denies Ayn Rand at least two more times.
 
2012-08-14 06:39:34 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?


It's pretty derpy. Bad writing and the purest form of the "I've got mine, fark you" philosophy. If you're in the mood for an author with Objectivist leanings, try The Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind. Much better writing, and he manages to hide his "Individualism GOOOD, collectivism BAAAD" pretty well until the fourth or fifth book.
 
2012-08-14 06:39:36 PM  
"I reject her philosophy," Ryan says firmly. "It's an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a person's view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas," who believed that man needs divine help in the pursuit of knowledge. "Don't give me Ayn Rand," he says.

Bullshiat. While people's views do evolve over time, he is quite clearly just telling people what they want to hear. Aquinas' ramblings are just as incoherent as Rand, there is no way he picked that up and then somehow concluded that Ayn Rand is wrong. Nor does he even explain how his view changed or even admit that he was once in love with Randian philosophy. Come on, even Romney has more backbone than that, he isn't suddenly claiming he's not Mormon just to score votes.
 
2012-08-14 06:39:48 PM  

Dalrint: Because a man who would cast aside a lifetime of belief for a moment of power is the kind of man I would the trust the future to.

/No, I don't like Rand.
//But he's been her disciple for his entire adult life.
///What will he cast aside next?


His House seat?
 
2012-08-14 06:40:11 PM  
Romney wants to convince everyone he's not the liberal he used to be, and now we have running mate who wants to convince everyone he's not the conservative he used to be.
 
2012-08-14 06:40:56 PM  

randomjsa: Yes, people grow up and embrace reality. Except the people who read socialist and communist literature, they never do.

Then we elect them president and wonder why people who never grew up make such lousy presidents.

Hopefully we can put an adult back in the WH in November.


thesidewedge.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-08-14 06:41:27 PM  

coeyagi: Ayn Rand Paul Ryan Gosling will be the name of my first child.

He will be a chain-smoking atheist Catholic optometrist with incredible abs and a shriveled up heartless dick who believes the gold standard and objectivism will be the saviors of humanity.

//so proud already


I thought child abuse was illegal?
 
2012-08-14 06:41:49 PM  
You know who else got rid of their Master in their ambition to become more powerful?

img2-1.timeinc.net

Darth Grannystarver is just following in that tradition. Ayn would have been SO proud!
 
2012-08-14 06:42:39 PM  

Confabulat: If you're going to feed me crap, make it entertaining crap. Rand couldn't even do that. I felt like taking a shower to get that book off me when I was done. Horrible characters, horrible philosophy, just a total disaster of a book. I have heard Atlas Shrugged is better but I'd probably prefer just taking an icepick to my eyeballs rather than try.


its not, its just as poorly written. at one point she had a character monologueing, and it was just repeating the same points over and over and over and over. so i decided to flip forward to see where it ended. it was another 40 something pages of a small print paperback.

even outside of the philosphy, its a terribly written book.
 
2012-08-14 06:45:15 PM  

Ghastly: I'd rather read a thousand farking elf songs by J.R.R. Tolkien than one chapter of Ayn Rand's crap.


Actually, Anthem isn't bad. It's pretty standard early 20th century dystopian sci-fi - not on the level of Huxley or Orwell but it has its moments. Everything else? Yeah...don't bother.
 
2012-08-14 06:46:40 PM  

tlchwi02: Confabulat: If you're going to feed me crap, make it entertaining crap. Rand couldn't even do that. I felt like taking a shower to get that book off me when I was done. Horrible characters, horrible philosophy, just a total disaster of a book. I have heard Atlas Shrugged is better but I'd probably prefer just taking an icepick to my eyeballs rather than try.

its not, its just as poorly written. at one point she had a character monologueing, and it was just repeating the same points over and over and over and over. so i decided to flip forward to see where it ended. it was another 40 something pages of a small print paperback.

even outside of the philosphy, its a terribly written book.


oh no doubt Rand needed a very good editor to help her beat that book into shape. I think it could have been a pretty decent story if edited down to something reasonable. OOoooo! how about we rewrite it but go with a dash of George R. R. Martin! bodies EVERYWHERE! and Dagny ends up chanting the names of everyone she wants revenge against every night until she falls asleep....John Galt as the face changing assassin....it could work!
 
2012-08-14 06:47:52 PM  
I read Atlas Shrugged in it's entirety.

Award please.

Seriously, you could edit it down to a dozen pages of socio-political commentary and leave out the endless monotony of head bashing illustrative examples and didactic soliloquies. It's a paiful read. If ever there was a call for only reading the Cliff Notes, this is that book.

And while I think there is *some* limited merit in some parts of objectivism as a socio-economic principle, it is a truly, truly. horrific way to guide your personal life. And watching the 'heroine' hop into the arms of whoever is the most advantageous man at the time makes Twilight's Bella seem like an empowered femenist role model.
 
2012-08-14 06:48:30 PM  

timujin: Neither Rand, nor any Objectivist I've met, truly understood/understand* one of the core tenets of their philosophy, rational self-interest.

.
.
.
*how exactly are you supposed to switch between tenses when talking about both the living and the dead?



There's only one person I can think of that's come close to being a true Objectivist...

cdn.ifanboy.com

Seriously, Ditko designed The Question and an earlier character. Mr. A (named after the logical and Objectivist principal of 'A is A'), on the ideas of Objectivism. Regardless of environment or 'justifications', a criminal is still a criminal and must be punished. Those who try to rationalize their crimes are denying the personal responsibility of the choice they made; the Question and Mr. A remind the criminals of this fact.
 
2012-08-14 06:49:25 PM  
The thing I always fail to understand about Rand is how intellectually bankrupt do you have to be to have books like The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged that are in all ways paeans to direct action, collective action and the wildcat strike and try with any seriousness to use them to argue against those very things?

Maybe it's just that Ayn Rand wasn't a very good writer and didn't realize her entire premise was intellectually bankrupt, and no amount of whining and having Galt draw dollar signs in the air with his cock would legitimize it?
 
2012-08-14 06:50:21 PM  
Her grave in Westchester, NY makes a great place to piss if your ever on a road trip.
 
2012-08-14 06:51:00 PM  
"The reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand," - Paul Ryan (2005)

"I grew up reading Ayn Rand and it taught me quite a bit about who I am and what my value systems are," he told the group, adding, "It's inspired me so much that it's required reading in my office for all my interns and my staff." - Paul Ryan (2005)

"I give out 'Atlas Shrugged' as Christmas presents." - Paul Ryan (2007)

"What's unique about what's happening today in government, in the world, in America, is that it's as if we're living in an Ayn Rand novel right now," Ryan said in a series of videos posted to Facebook in 2009. "I think Ayn Rand did the best job of anybody to build a moral case of capitalism, and that morality of capitalism is under assault." - Paul Ryan (2009)

"I, like millions of young people in America, read Rand's novels when I was young. I enjoyed them," he said. "...[but] I reject her philosophy." - Paul Ryan (2012)

so.....he was young in 2009, but now he's much more mature?

Dear Congressman Ryan,

THE INTERNET DOES NOT FORGET. Also, fark you, you farking liar.
 
2012-08-14 06:51:04 PM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: There's only one person I can think of that's come close to being a true Objectivist...


Also Rorschach
3.bp.blogspot.com

Although in Fairness, Moore based Rorschach on the Question anyway, so....
 
2012-08-14 06:51:38 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: I read Atlas Shrugged in it's entirety.

Award please.

Seriously, you could edit it down to a dozen pages of socio-political commentary and leave out the endless monotony of head bashing illustrative examples and didactic soliloquies. It's a paiful read. If ever there was a call for only reading the Cliff Notes, this is that book.

And while I think there is *some* limited merit in some parts of objectivism as a socio-economic principle, it is a truly, truly. horrific way to guide your personal life. And watching the 'heroine' hop into the arms of whoever is the most advantageous man at the time makes Twilight's Bella seem like an empowered femenist role model.


Wow. That's pretty brutal. I had considered reading it. I think I'll find a cliff notes and peruse, instead.
 
2012-08-14 06:51:53 PM  
I read The Fountainhead, only it was called The Sword of Truth and was rapey-er. It was also written by a strange thin woman, but this one had a ponytail and a penchant for tight turtlenecks but the books was also terrible.
 
2012-08-14 06:53:08 PM  
A man chooses. A slave obeys. Good for Ryan. I plan on moving to his undersea land any day now.
 
2012-08-14 06:54:01 PM  
If you're going to be fascinated with fiction writers couldn't they at least be entertaining? I don't agree with much of Heinlein or Pournelle but at least they knew how to carry a story.
 
2012-08-14 06:54:24 PM  

Snapper Carr: Actually, Anthem isn't bad. It's pretty standard early 20th century dystopian sci-fi - not on the level of Huxley or Orwell but it has its moments. Everything else? Yeah...don't bother.


Also, Anthem is a 100-page novella, which is downright palatable compared to thousand-page snorefests like The Fountainshrugged.
 
2012-08-14 06:54:33 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Atlas Shrugged is about this superhuman business guy named John Galt who was super awesome at everything he did and one day he just checked out of society because he was tired of all of the mindless bureaucratic red-tape regulations and union bullshiat that surrounds running a business in a modern society like ours. And people freaked out because without John Galt around, everything was going to shiat. And then other really important business tycoons did the same thing. And then all of the union workers and politicians were really sad and miserable and jobless, because the super awesome job creators weren't around to lead them to prosperity and super awesome living. So the moral of the story is, keep sucking rich guy dick or they'll fark you in the ass.



Is this legitimately what the book is about? I've never read it, or even a summary of it. We need to figure out a way tomake all the bankers and CEO's leave. They've been farking a lot of shiat up.

Employee 1: "Dude the CEO just up and left"
Employee 2: "Well the company was doing badly so he was about to lay some of us off. I guess we can use his multi-million dollar benefits, stocks and paychecks to maintain, build and expand the company."
Employee 1: "But who is going to lead us?"
Employee 2: "We're Americans, we'll figure it out on our own and in a democratic fashion. We're educated, we're not afraid of losing our jobs and we now know that any additional profit from the business will go directly into our checking accounts. I think we'll be okay."
Employee 1: "We should have done this years ago!"
 
2012-08-14 06:55:03 PM  
AYN RAND PAUL!


/Got nothin'
 
2012-08-14 06:55:42 PM  
In reality, are you an Ayn Rand fan if you receive hundreds of thousands of dollars in government subsidy? I suppose it's okay because Ayn Rand herself went on Social Security.
 
2012-08-14 06:55:44 PM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: Seriously, Ditko designed The Question and an earlier character. Mr. A (named after the logical and Objectivist principal of 'A is A'), on the ideas of Objectivism. Regardless of environment or 'justifications', a criminal is still a criminal and must be punished. Those who try to rationalize their crimes are denying the personal responsibility of the choice they made; the Question and Mr. A remind the criminals of this fact.


Mr. A would go around killing people for the mere slightest of infractions. He was more stringent and twice as punitive as Santabot. If you had the tiniest moral imperfection, BAM! into the "Evil" category you go, and the penalty was DEATH!

What these Randian types seem to overlook is "let the punishment fit the crime". Do we simply give the shoplifter a couple months in jail to think about the error of their ways, or do we "EXECUTE ALL THE THINGS!"?

i291.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-14 06:56:03 PM  

HellRaisingHoosier: Lando Lincoln: Atlas Shrugged is about this superhuman business guy named John Galt who was super awesome at everything he did and one day he just checked out of society because he was tired of all of the mindless bureaucratic red-tape regulations and union bullshiat that surrounds running a business in a modern society like ours. And people freaked out because without John Galt around, everything was going to shiat. And then other really important business tycoons did the same thing. And then all of the union workers and politicians were really sad and miserable and jobless, because the super awesome job creators weren't around to lead them to prosperity and super awesome living. So the moral of the story is, keep sucking rich guy dick or they'll fark you in the ass.


Is this legitimately what the book is about? I've never read it, or even a summary of it. We need to figure out a way tomake all the bankers and CEO's leave. They've been farking a lot of shiat up.

Employee 1: "Dude the CEO just up and left"
Employee 2: "Well the company was doing badly so he was about to lay some of us off. I guess we can use his multi-million dollar benefits, stocks and paychecks to maintain, build and expand the company."
Employee 1: "But who is going to lead us?"
Employee 2: "We're Americans, we'll figure it out on our own and in a democratic fashion. We're educated, we're not afraid of losing our jobs and we now know that any additional profit from the business will go directly into our checking accounts. I think we'll be okay."
Employee 1: "We should have done this years ago!"


This! This this this a thousand times farking this. People need to wake up and understand that the hierarchical corporate model is nothing but a legal pyramid scheme, and it's unnecessary.
 
2012-08-14 06:56:06 PM  
Wow, I actually respected this guy although I disagreed with him. Now he's just a liar or gave up on the very thing that got him into public service. What a joke.
 
2012-08-14 06:56:09 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: RoyFokker'sGhost: There's only one person I can think of that's come close to being a true Objectivist...

Also Rorschach


Although in Fairness, Moore based Rorschach on the Question anyway, so....


Or Mr A who later served as the model for the Question. Ditko was a nut but so are many comic writers.
 
2012-08-14 06:56:16 PM  
I'm pretty sure Neil Peart and obsessive Rush fanboys are the only reason there are people past the age of 19 who like Ayn Rand.
 
2012-08-14 06:57:25 PM  
What happened to that trend of "Going Galt" that was reported to be widespread on Fox News shortly after Obama was elected and was being threatened by all the captains of industry who ran everything from right wing blogs to far right wing blogs. Did anyone make good on that promise, or did they sit back and collect their share of the massively growing corporate profits and continued low tax rate?
 
2012-08-14 06:58:05 PM  

ps69: I read The Fountainhead, only it was called The Sword of Truth and was rapey-er.


You speak truth. I'm reading the series now. At Book 8. Book seven was pretty much one long rapist saga. All of them are an Ode to Rand. In some ways, it's a slightly better articulation of objectivism.

But way too much rape, threats of rape, thoughts of rape, rape as plot device, rape as background filler, rape as character builder, rape as punishment, and then domination and torture as a path to self actualization and empowerment (see the Mord-Sith).

Aside from that, they actually wouldn't be that bad.
 
2012-08-14 06:58:15 PM  

coeyagi: Weaver95: what if all the John Galt wannabes up and left...and society got better for it?

They wouldn't, they could care less about the collectivist needs of society. They would hang around in their hoverrounds biatching about how corporate taxes are high, therefore R&D budgets are low, and therefore he, the dependent inventor who prides himself on his independence, wouldn't have any money to invent.


Society would be better off, but the Randroids in Galt's Gulch would be forced to keep slaves to do the work for them, because they wouldn't do the work themselves and chores gotta get done.
 
2012-08-14 06:58:22 PM  
flipflop jr.
 
2012-08-14 06:58:28 PM  

Fark You I'm Drunk: I'm pretty sure Neil Peart and obsessive Rush fanboys are the only reason there are people past the age of 19 who like Ayn Rand.


Which is really funny because Neil Peart identifies as a left-libertarian now.
 
2012-08-14 06:58:45 PM  
Maybe he should read Dune and form his philosophy around that...

It'd be less derpy too.
 
2012-08-14 06:59:22 PM  

cman: I've got an idea


Doubtful.
 
2012-08-14 06:59:36 PM  

Craptastic: "The reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand," - Paul Ryan (2005)


Know what I love about that? Getting into public service means your paycheck depends on taxpayers, which kinda doesn't jive with what Rand advocated.

Fark You I'm Drunk: I'm pretty sure Neil Peart and obsessive Rush fanboys are the only reason there are people past the age of 19 who like Ayn Rand.


Actually Peart got past Rand ages ago.
 
2012-08-14 07:01:09 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Actually Peart got past Rand ages ago.


Too bad it didn't improve his drumming.

/Stewart Copeland
 
2012-08-14 07:01:53 PM  

Confabulat: I read The Fountainhead in my early 20s on a good friend's recommendation, with no real preconceptions of her work or philosophy. It's one of those books that you actually get angry at the author for 1) rambling for pages and pages about utter unrealistic nonsense and pretending it's wisdom; and 2) being a terrible writer on every level while doing that.

If you're going to feed me crap, make it entertaining crap. Rand couldn't even do that. I felt like taking a shower to get that book off me when I was done. Horrible characters, horrible philosophy, just a total disaster of a book. I have heard Atlas Shrugged is better but I'd probably prefer just taking an icepick to my eyeballs rather than try.


But without it, we never would have gotten Bioshock, so, in the end, mostly worth it.
 
2012-08-14 07:02:04 PM  
I read Anthem when I was 16 and afterwards I raped my stuffed animals for hours in an attempt to create a new master race.

I'm better now thanks to the Lithium.
 
2012-08-14 07:02:18 PM  

Fart_Machine: Or Mr A who later served as the model for the Question.


That was mentioned in the post I quoted. Ditko, Mr. A, and The Question came before Moore and Rorschach. Rorschach was a direct derivation of the Question. (In the same way that Dr. Manhattan was Captain Atom, Owlman was Blue Beetle, etc.) Due to licensing issues withthe Charleston characters.
 
2012-08-14 07:03:36 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Although in Fairness, Moore based Rorschach on the Question anyway, so....


A cute little side-story was when The Question first heard about the Rorschach character, identified with him, and tried to emulate him.

media.comicvine.com
www.revolutionsf.com
www.revolutionsf.com
www.revolutionsf.com
www.revolutionsf.com

By the end of the story, The Question came to the obvious conclusion...........

www.revolutionsf.com
 
2012-08-14 07:03:37 PM  

Triumph: FTA:"I reject her philosophy," Ryan says firmly. "It's an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a person's view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas,"

God help us.


So from one of the worst minds of the 20th century to one of the worst minds of the 13th century?
Not an improvement by any measure...
 
2012-08-14 07:04:54 PM  
Rand remarked that the core idea for the book came to her after a 1943 telephone conversation with a friend, who asserted that Rand owed it to her readers to write a nonfiction book about her philosophy. Rand replied, "What if I went on strike? What if all the creative minds of the world went on strike?"

Really?

This is today's GOP go-to? Creative minds?

Please, get Adelson and Trump and Rove and the Koch's and Foster Friese and the rest of those scumsucking, greedy bastards to go on strike. Oh yeah, Mitt, too.

Please!

/Creative? Not really, no.
 
2012-08-14 07:05:05 PM  

Gyrony: So from one of the worst minds of the 20th century to one of the worst minds of the 13th century?


Really? Planting your flag on the mental inferiority of Thomas Aquinas?

Interesting play.
 
2012-08-14 07:05:42 PM  

TV's Vinnie: A cute little side-story was when The Question first heard about the Rorschach character, identified with him, and tried to emulate him.


Cool. Hadn't seen that. Thx.
 
2012-08-14 07:07:49 PM  
what if john galt was paul ryans grandfather?
 
2012-08-14 07:09:52 PM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: timujin: Neither Rand, nor any Objectivist I've met, truly understood/understand* one of the core tenets of their philosophy, rational self-interest.

.
.
.
*how exactly are you supposed to switch between tenses when talking about both the living and the dead?


There's only one person I can think of that's come close to being a true Objectivist...

[cdn.ifanboy.com image 850x478]

Seriously, Ditko designed The Question and an earlier character. Mr. A (named after the logical and Objectivist principal of 'A is A'), on the ideas of Objectivism. Regardless of environment or 'justifications', a criminal is still a criminal and must be punished. Those who try to rationalize their crimes are denying the personal responsibility of the choice they made; the Question and Mr. A remind the criminals of this fact.


But aren't they themselves criminals, for being vigilantes?

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: But without it, we never would have gotten Bioshock, so, in the end, mostly worth it.


Yes you would have. It was called System Shock 2. It was also better.
/No seriously, Bioshock is System Shock 2 Underwater and Watered Down.
 
2012-08-14 07:11:41 PM  
How convenient...
 
2012-08-14 07:12:59 PM  

Weaver95: what if all the John Galt wannabes up and left...and society got better for it?


There was that SeaSteading idea that was being floated around recently. Maybe the guys who came up with the idea played Bioshock and realized the same would happen to their own little Raptures (plasmids, ADAM, etc. not withstanding). So they decided to ruin parts of Honduras instead.
 
2012-08-14 07:14:13 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Fark You I'm Drunk: I'm pretty sure Neil Peart and obsessive Rush fanboys are the only reason there are people past the age of 19 who like Ayn Rand.

Actually Peart got past Rand ages ago.


Peart did, but a lot of his fans didn't. 2112/Anthem/Closer to the Heart is based on Rand, therefore Ayn Rand is the greatest thing ever.
 
2012-08-14 07:14:43 PM  
Maybe we could get Ryan and Romney to go Galt? I promise I won't look for them.
 
2012-08-14 07:16:08 PM  
Who is Paul Ryan???
 
2012-08-14 07:17:36 PM  
Anthem is a hacktacular ripoff of Yevgeny Zamyatin's We. That is all.
 
2012-08-14 07:18:11 PM  

Mercutio74: Who is Paul Ryan???


A collection of several trillion cells eager to do the US Chamber of Commerce's bidding. Some f*cking objectivist he turned out to be.
 
2012-08-14 07:18:30 PM  

gittlebass: what if john galt was paul ryans grandfather?


Wait now, who is John Galt? The guy with the Big Blue Ox?

No, that was some other mythical dude.

/Paul something
 
2012-08-14 07:18:37 PM  
You're not a 19 year old who's gone to college.
You're a 42 year old who is apparently keen on being VP.

Bull. Shiat.
 
2012-08-14 07:19:29 PM  
Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?

*reads first 50 posts*

Yep, meets the Fark formula.

Carry on.
 
2012-08-14 07:20:05 PM  

Fano: A man chooses. A slave obeys. Good for Ryan. I plan on moving to his undersea land any day now.


You should bring your little sister.
 
2012-08-14 07:23:04 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Gyrony: So from one of the worst minds of the 20th century to one of the worst minds of the 13th century?

Really? Planting your flag on the mental inferiority of Thomas Aquinas?

Interesting play.


not the mental inferiority, the ideological inferiority.
 
2012-08-14 07:23:51 PM  

Silly Jesus: Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?


Apparently this is the thread for whiny butthurt Randroids.
 
2012-08-14 07:24:53 PM  

Silly Jesus: Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?

*reads first 50 posts*

Yep, meets the Fark formula.

Carry on.


Is this the thread where some Randian shows up and issues a blank dismissal of criticism by simply assuming none of the critics have ever read Rand (because if they did, they would know what a great intellectual and writer she was)?

Yep, carry on
 
2012-08-14 07:24:57 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Getting into public service means your paycheck depends on taxpayers, which kinda doesn't jive with what Rand advocated.


Doesn't she spend about 300 pages of The Fountainhead making fun of Catherine Halsey for believing in the value of public service?
 
2012-08-14 07:26:04 PM  

Silly Jesus: Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?

*reads first 50 posts*

Yep, meets the Fark formula.

Carry on.


Yes, meet the Randroid formula.

"Well,you obviously haven't read it, because if you had then you'd understand it and then you'd agree with it."

"Yeah...I've read it, it's garbage."

"Well, obviously you're not intelligent enough to understand it, because if you were then you'd agree with it."
 
2012-08-14 07:26:57 PM  

Silly Jesus: Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?

*reads first 50 posts*

Yep, meets the Fark formula.

Carry on


Then you didn't read the first 50 posts. So you're either lying or unable to recognize relity because it doesn't match up to your expectation of how life is supposed to work.

Yep, meets the "Silly Jesus" formula.

Fark off unless you have something substantive to add.
 
2012-08-14 07:28:52 PM  
M

Huggermugger: Silly Jesus: Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?

*reads first 50 posts*

Yep, meets the Fark formula.

Carry on.

Yes, meet the Randroid formula.

"Well,you obviously haven't read it, because if you had then you'd understand it and then you'd agree with it."

"Yeah...I've read it, it's garbage."

"Well, obviously you're not intelligent enough to understand it, because if you were then you'd agree with it."


Sounds like my dad. He's 65. It's one of the reasons I don't go visit very often. (Mom thinks she's Dr. Laura. That's actually worse.)
 
2012-08-14 07:29:13 PM  
This another go-no where proposition. The only people in a red state like mine who know anything about Ayn Rand are the libertarians and liberals. Together they make up a few neighborhoods in Omaha. Everyone else is a believer in 0bama the time traveling secrit muslin usurper, who must be stopped at all costs.
 
2012-08-14 07:29:21 PM  
If she wanted to write a book about her philosophy, she should have done that and not cloaked it in fictional characters and idealistic situations.
 
2012-08-14 07:29:59 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?

*reads first 50 posts*

Yep, meets the Fark formula.

Carry on.

Is this the thread where some Randian shows up and issues a blank dismissal of criticism by simply assuming none of the critics have ever read Rand (because if they did, they would know what a great intellectual and writer she was)?

Yep, carry on


Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."
 
2012-08-14 07:30:28 PM  

meat0918: If she wanted to write a book about her philosophy, she should have done that and not cloaked it in fictional characters and idealistic situations.


But that would have only made it more ridiculous and impossible to take seriously.
 
2012-08-14 07:31:38 PM  
It's so important that we go back to our roots to look at Ayn Rand's vision, her writings, to see what our girding, under-grounding [sic] principles are. I always go back to, you know, Francisco d'Anconia's speech (at Bill Taggart's wedding) on money when I think about monetary policy.

Wow, it's been a long time since I read Rand's novels so I forgot all about Francisco d'Anconia. I've got to ask, what kind of farking bunghole gives a speech about money at a wedding? She's writing a fantasy world in which she can make the heroes perfect in every way and the villians as terrible as she wants. So she makes one of the heroes give a windbag speech at someone's wedding? Yeah, everyone has that one uncle who farks things up during the toast but usually his drunk ass is quickly pulled off stage by his wife. Certainly not the kind of thing you'd celebrate as being heroic.
 
2012-08-14 07:32:09 PM  

Huggermugger: Silly Jesus: Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?

*reads first 50 posts*

Yep, meets the Fark formula.

Carry on.

Yes, meet the Randroid formula.

"Well,you obviously haven't read it, because if you had then you'd understand it and then you'd agree with it."

"Yeah...I've read it, it's garbage."

"Well, obviously you're not intelligent enough to understand it, because if you were then you'd agree with it."


Not what I was saying.

I was simply pointing out that most people who hate it haven't read it. I have respect for those that have read it and don't agree with it...I was only speaking to those that say "I haven't even heard of her, but libs seem to hate her, so I do too, derp."

/I've read most of her stuff. I like it in theory, but admit that it wouldn't work in reality. Much like those that like communism in theory but acknowledge that it's unworkable in the real world.
 
2012-08-14 07:32:34 PM  

Silly Jesus: Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."


I didn't have to read Mein Kampf, the Turner Diaries, or the Unibomber Manifesto either.
 
2012-08-14 07:33:00 PM  

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: Silly Jesus: Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."

I didn't have to read Mein Kampf, the Turner Diaries, or the Unibomber Manifesto either.


Why don't you have an open mind, LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIB?
 
2012-08-14 07:33:46 PM  

timujin: Silly Jesus: Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?

*reads first 50 posts*

Yep, meets the Fark formula.

Carry on

Then you didn't read the first 50 posts. So you're either lying or unable to recognize relity because it doesn't match up to your expectation of how life is supposed to work.

Yep, meets the "Silly Jesus" formula.

Fark off unless you have something substantive to add.


www.damnlol.com
 
2012-08-14 07:34:45 PM  

verbaltoxin: This another go-no where proposition. The only people in a red state like mine who know anything about Ayn Rand are the libertarians and liberals. Together they make up a few neighborhoods in Omaha. Everyone else is a believer in 0bama the time traveling secrit muslin usurper, who must be stopped at all costs.


It wasn't to appease anyone, but a preemptive attempt to deflect any possible negative ads that stem from Rand being an atheist.

Being associated with an atheist is about the worst thing a politician can do.

It's not going to help, because he just fed the flip flop narrative.
 
2012-08-14 07:35:04 PM  

Zagloba: Anthem is a hacktacular ripoff of Yevgeny Zamyatin's We. That is all.


You're right, but Anthem remains remarkable because it a) is a readable length, and b) completely conveys the entirety of Rand's philosophical underpinnings.

With Atlas and Fountainhead, you've gotta wonder if she was getting paid by the word. Also, the fact that a short novella can communicate the entirety of Rand's philosophical depth tells you all you need to know about it.

I do find it interesting to see Ryan talk about Aquinas- Rand and Aquinas both have something in common: neither one of them understood Aristotle worth a damn.
 
2012-08-14 07:35:31 PM  

HellRaisingHoosier: Is this legitimately what the book is about? I've never read it, or even a summary of it. We need to figure out a way to make all the bankers and CEO's leave. They've been farking a lot of shiat up.


Here's a much more thorough and undoubtedly accurate summary of it. Even the summary is extremely tedious. Ayn Rand sucked as a writer.

SparkNotes: Atlas Shrugged
 
2012-08-14 07:36:06 PM  

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: Silly Jesus: Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."

I didn't have to read Mein Kampf, the Turner Diaries, or the Unibomber Manifesto either.


I read the first two so that I could discuss them intelligently. I guess that standard doesn't hold true for most people.
 
2012-08-14 07:36:21 PM  

Silly Jesus: Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?

*reads first 50 posts*

Yep, meets the Fark formula.

Carry on.

Is this the thread where some Randian shows up and issues a blank dismissal of criticism by simply assuming none of the critics have ever read Rand (because if they did, they would know what a great intellectual and writer she was)?

Yep, carry on

Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."


Citation? Because I don't see that. Unless you consider 4 out of 50 to be a "great deal of the comments." And those were only, "I haven't read it," no "she's an idiot and her ideas are BS." Lying is becoming second nature to you, it seems.
 
2012-08-14 07:37:14 PM  
So he finally figured out she was an atheist?
 
2012-08-14 07:38:14 PM  
 
2012-08-14 07:39:56 PM  

Silly Jesus: I read the first two so that I could discuss them intelligently.


Discussing Mein Kampf and the Turner Diaries 'intelligently'.

hahahaohwow.jpg
 
2012-08-14 07:40:06 PM  

Silly Jesus: Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."


Her heroes are sociopaths.
 
2012-08-14 07:40:54 PM  

Gimmick: The plot of Atlas Shrugged in 12 seconds.


socialeyezer.com
 
2012-08-14 07:41:03 PM  

Gyrony: Triumph: FTA:"I reject her philosophy," Ryan says firmly. "It's an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a person's view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas,"

God help us.

So from one of the worst minds of the 20th century to one of the worst minds of the 13th century?
Not an improvement by any measure...


Worst minds of the century, eh? Not really in either case. When I wrote "God help us," I was making a joke about what Aquinas believed.
 
2012-08-14 07:41:15 PM  

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: Silly Jesus: I read the first two so that I could discuss them intelligently.

Discussing Mein Kampf and the Turner Diaries 'intelligently'.

hahahaohwow.jpg


How to discuss those books intelligently:

"They're psychotic bullshiat written by evil pieces of human waste. The end. Go read something worth your time."
 
2012-08-14 07:42:55 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Here's a much more thorough and undoubtedly accurate summary of it. Even the summary is extremely tedious. Ayn Rand sucked as a writer


I actually liked some of her essays...not in full but she'shiat and miss on her philosophy. The misses are dreadful, but the hits are interesting and occasionally logically sound.
 
2012-08-14 07:44:47 PM  

timujin: Silly Jesus: Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?

*reads first 50 posts*

Yep, meets the Fark formula.

Carry on.

Is this the thread where some Randian shows up and issues a blank dismissal of criticism by simply assuming none of the critics have ever read Rand (because if they did, they would know what a great intellectual and writer she was)?

Yep, carry on

Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."

Citation? Because I don't see that. Unless you consider 4 out of 50 to be a "great deal of the comments." And those were only, "I haven't read it," no "she's an idiot and her ideas are BS." Lying is becoming second nature to you, it seems.


You're right. Everyone is having a reasoned discussion concerning the merit of specific aspects of her philosophy and not being reactionary drones with knee-jerk reactions to the very mention of the horrible Rand.
 
2012-08-14 07:44:48 PM  
I'm anxiously awaiting another Limbaugh meltdown about Bioshock being developed by libs and intentionally including a character named "Ryan" creating a Randian dystopia in order to influence the 2012 election, like the rant about Bain/Bane Batman movie thing.
 
2012-08-14 07:44:56 PM  

MayoSlather: Lando Lincoln: Here's a much more thorough and undoubtedly accurate summary of it. Even the summary is extremely tedious. Ayn Rand sucked as a writer

I actually liked some of her essays...not in full but she'shiat and miss but she'shiat and miss on her philosophy. The misses are dreadful, but the hits are interesting and occasionally logically sound.


oops
 
2012-08-14 07:45:24 PM  

A Dark Evil Omen: "They're psychotic bullshiat written by evil pieces of human waste. The end. Go read something worth your time."


"You're a poor downtrodden white Christian male? Don't worry, nothing is ever your fault! All the reward you rightfully deserve for all that hard work you did, it all went to the Jews. Or the blacks and the Jews. Or the leeches who may or may also not be Jewish."
 
2012-08-14 07:46:26 PM  

MayoSlather: MayoSlather: Lando Lincoln: Here's a much more thorough and undoubtedly accurate summary of it. Even the summary is extremely tedious. Ayn Rand sucked as a writer

I actually liked some of her essays...not in full but she'shiat and miss but she'shiat and miss on her philosophy. The misses are dreadful, but the hits are interesting and occasionally logically sound.

oops


I guess fark autocorrect insists I'm wrong.
 
2012-08-14 07:46:31 PM  

Morpher59: I'm anxiously awaiting another Limbaugh meltdown about Bioshock being developed by libs and intentionally including a character named "Ryan" creating a Randian dystopia in order to influence the 2012 election, like the rant about Bain/Bane Batman movie thing.


You're presuming he's hip enough to do that.
 
2012-08-14 07:47:12 PM  
I can almost always tell a modern objectivist writer by the way they write children. For some reason, children in objectivist books don't just talk like full-grown adults, but they talk like fully-actualized well-rounded intelligent adults who are capable of unpacking and analyzing all their inner demons and assessing a potential strategy for dealing with them.

The trouble with talking to objectivists is that they go from normal to crazy faster than any other dogmatics. They're so convinced that they think and communicate with utter cubic logic in all things that they believe that the mere fact that the logic exists must mean that it's correct. In other words, they believe they're correct because they believe they're correct - the fact that they came up with a conclusion means that the conclusion must be accurate.

At the same time, I've met plenty of objectivists, mostly online, whose brains are less organized than a sack of rabid raccoons; their logic comes from other planets and their conclusions fit however they happen to feel at the time. They're also past masters at doing the math backwards; they have a conclusion so they invent a logic that fits it. Then they get axe-throwing defensive when you call them on it.

One objectivist, that I did get to meet personally, flew into a rage when I told him that it wasn't actually possible to talk to bears and have them understand you. I have no idea what was driving his brain. Another lives in a hoarder house, collects guns, and receives government assistance. He's pretty special. And these people go into these rage spirals whenever you say that there might be flaws in their thinking or blind spots in their behavior.

Deep down, I think objectivists know that they can't really run their own lives, but don't you dare bust that illusion. Everything they are depends upon convincing themselves that they're better than everyone else.
 
2012-08-14 07:47:23 PM  

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: Silly Jesus: I read the first two so that I could discuss them intelligently.

Discussing Mein Kampf and the Turner Diaries 'intelligently'.

hahahaohwow.jpg


Yes. Believe it or not the only discussion about Mein Kampf isn't "Hitler bad", "I agree", "OK, next book."

If that's all that you can muster though, I understand.
 
2012-08-14 07:47:36 PM  

FlashHarry: "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

-- Paul Krugman


That's not Paul Krugman's btw.

It belongs to some guy named John Rogers
 
2012-08-14 07:47:46 PM  

MayoSlather: MayoSlather: Lando Lincoln: Here's a much more thorough and undoubtedly accurate summary of it. Even the summary is extremely tedious. Ayn Rand sucked as a writer

I actually liked some of her essays...not in full but she'shiat and miss but she'shiat and miss on her philosophy. The misses are dreadful, but the hits are interesting and occasionally logically sound.

oops


2x COMBO FILTERPWN!
 
2012-08-14 07:48:11 PM  
I read the first chapter of Atlas.
Then I tossed it to the curb and read Animal Farm. A much better book.

/Ryan's an asshat.
 
2012-08-14 07:48:46 PM  

MayoSlather: I guess fark autocorrect insists I'm wrong.


You're getting tripped by the filter. She is a hit or a miss won't trigger it. Basically it thinks you are trying to type the word sh*t.
 
2012-08-14 07:49:37 PM  

HeartBurnKid: 2x COMBO FILTERPWN!


finish him
 
2012-08-14 07:49:45 PM  

HeartBurnKid: MayoSlather: MayoSlather: Lando Lincoln: Here's a much more thorough and undoubtedly accurate summary of it. Even the summary is extremely tedious. Ayn Rand sucked as a writer

I actually liked some of her essays...not in full but she'shiat and miss but she'shiat and miss on her philosophy. The misses are dreadful, but the hits are interesting and occasionally logically sound.

oops

2x COMBO FILTERPWN!



I already addressed the double fail...but thanks for bringing it up again.
 
2012-08-14 07:50:06 PM  

Silly Jesus: If that's all that you can muster though, I understand.


Spoken like a true Randian.
 
2012-08-14 07:50:36 PM  

timujin: Neither Rand, nor any Objectivist I've met, truly understood/understand* one of the core tenets of their philosophy, rational self-interest.
.
*how exactly are you supposed to switch between tenses when talking about both the living and the dead?


*Unless you met the living in the future, you farking wizard, or are currently meeting with them in the present--which you are not, because "I've met"--the past should be just fine.
 
2012-08-14 07:50:53 PM  

Silly Jesus: Yes. Believe it or not the only discussion about Mein Kampf isn't "Hitler bad", "I agree", "OK, next book."


I have 10 million plus reasons to know 'Hitler bad'. I don't need a book full of his rationalizing to know why.

If that's all that you can muster though, I understand.

Well aren't you the special snowflake. Next time don't overcook my fries or I'm telling your manager.
 
2012-08-14 07:51:18 PM  

Silly Jesus: the merit of specific aspects of her philosophy


Her heroes are sociopaths.
 
2012-08-14 07:51:24 PM  

peasandcarrots: They're so convinced that they think and communicate with utter cubic logic in all things that they believe that the mere fact that the logic exists must mean that it's correct.


EARTH HAS 4 CORNER
SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY
RAND CUBE
WITHIN SINGLE ROTATION.
 
2012-08-14 07:52:19 PM  

Without Fail: Silly Jesus: Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."

Her heroes are sociopaths.


Hey, that's better than "Rand bad."

How are they sociopaths? I assume you are talking about Galt and Dagny etc? I don't think that they are sociopaths at all. They very much respect those around them that aren't unfairly / unjustly asking / demanding something from them.
 
2012-08-14 07:52:32 PM  

Silly Jesus: Yes. Believe it or not the only discussion about Mein Kampf isn't "Hitler bad", "I agree", "OK, next book."


"Hey, I think that Hitler guy was on to something"?
 
2012-08-14 07:53:05 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Spoken like a true Randian.


If he wasn't held down by the parasites (and possibly the Jews) he would be able to show just how superior he truly is to all of us.
 
2012-08-14 07:53:18 PM  

Gimmick: The plot of Atlas Shrugged in 12 seconds.


HA! That's exactly like the moochers.
 
2012-08-14 07:53:23 PM  

Silly Jesus: Without Fail: Silly Jesus: Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."

Her heroes are sociopaths.

Hey, that's better than "Rand bad."

How are they sociopaths? I assume you are talking about Galt and Dagny etc? I don't think that they are sociopaths at all. They very much respect those around them that aren't unfairly / unjustly asking / demanding something from them.


Another thing you don't understand: The meaning of the term "sociopath".
 
2012-08-14 07:57:23 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Silly Jesus: If that's all that you can muster though, I understand.

Spoken like a true Randian.


How so, grasshoppa?
 
2012-08-14 07:58:13 PM  

Ghastly: I'd rather read a thousand farking elf songs by J.R.R. Tolkien than one chapter of Ayn Rand's crap.


Wish granted! Kind of
Passing of the Elves (10 hours)
 
2012-08-14 07:58:33 PM  

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: Silly Jesus: Yes. Believe it or not the only discussion about Mein Kampf isn't "Hitler bad", "I agree", "OK, next book."

I have 10 million plus reasons to know 'Hitler bad'. I don't need a book full of his rationalizing to know why.

If that's all that you can muster though, I understand.

Well aren't you the special snowflake. Next time don't overcook my fries or I'm telling your manager.


Your intellectual curiosity is astounding.

/Ding! Fries are done!
 
2012-08-14 07:59:13 PM  

Silly Jesus: Lando Lincoln: Silly Jesus: If that's all that you can muster though, I understand.

Spoken like a true Randian.

How so, grasshoppa?


Did you vote for Bush in 2000?
 
2012-08-14 07:59:41 PM  
Seriously?

This long and no one (that I am not ignoring) posted it?

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-08-14 07:59:52 PM  

A Dark Evil Omen: Silly Jesus: Without Fail: Silly Jesus: Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."

Her heroes are sociopaths.

Hey, that's better than "Rand bad."

How are they sociopaths? I assume you are talking about Galt and Dagny etc? I don't think that they are sociopaths at all. They very much respect those around them that aren't unfairly / unjustly asking / demanding something from them.

Another thing you don't understand: The meaning of the term "sociopath".


so·ci·o·path/ˈsōsēōˌpaTH/
Noun:
A person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.
 
2012-08-14 08:00:15 PM  
What, Ayn Rand thread and no one posts the classic sequel?

Allow me:
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-08-14 08:00:25 PM  
FTA:"I reject her philosophy," Ryan says firmly. "It's an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a person's view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas,"

Funny how he
1) Just came to this realization "just now"
2) It is now derpy to like and also denounce Ayn Rand......Double yew, tee, eff
 
2012-08-14 08:01:06 PM  

Silly Jesus: Your intellectual curiosity is astounding.


Some of us have better pursuits for our intellectual curiosity than the rationalization of resentment.
 
2012-08-14 08:01:07 PM  

Curse of the Goth Kids: Silly Jesus: Lando Lincoln: Silly Jesus: If that's all that you can muster though, I understand.

Spoken like a true Randian.

How so, grasshoppa?

Did you vote for Bush in 2000?


Nope. Libertarian. If I was forced to vote for one of the two main parties I'd usually vote Democrat...but my state is decidedly red so I don't bother.
 
2012-08-14 08:02:10 PM  

Silly Jesus: Curse of the Goth Kids: Silly Jesus: Lando Lincoln: Silly Jesus: If that's all that you can muster though, I understand.

Spoken like a true Randian.

How so, grasshoppa?

Did you vote for Bush in 2000?

Nope. Libertarian. If I was forced to vote for one of the two main parties I'd usually vote Democrat...but my state is decidedly red so I don't bother.


You're a little old to be believing in Leprechauns, aren't you?
 
2012-08-14 08:02:35 PM  

Silly Jesus: How are they sociopaths? I assume you are talking about Galt and Dagny etc? I don't think that they are sociopaths at all. They very much respect those around them that aren't unfairly / unjustly asking / demanding something from them.


Her characters are sociopaths, by definition.

Her personal hero William Edward Hickman was in fact a sociopathic child murderer.

I thought you knew something about her?
 
2012-08-14 08:02:54 PM  

idsfa: Seriously?

This long and no one (that I am not ignoring) posted it?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 790x416]


Well, it IS important enough to get posted twice.
 
2012-08-14 08:04:14 PM  

Confabulat: I read The Fountainhead in my early 20s on a good friend's recommendation, with no real preconceptions of her work or philosophy. It's one of those books that you actually get angry at the author for 1) rambling for pages and pages about utter unrealistic nonsense and pretending it's wisdom; and 2) being a terrible writer on every level while doing that.

If you're going to feed me crap, make it entertaining crap. Rand couldn't even do that. I felt like taking a shower to get that book off me when I was done. Horrible characters, horrible philosophy, just a total disaster of a book. I have heard Atlas Shrugged is better but I'd probably prefer just taking an icepick to my eyeballs rather than try.


I liked Anthem, but only read it once don't know how it would do with a second reading. The Fountainhead I couldn't finish, made it less than halfway through.

I think Anthem might have been based on someone else's book.
 
2012-08-14 08:08:32 PM  

Jaws_Victim: What, Ayn Rand thread and no one posts the classic sequel?

Allow me:
[1.bp.blogspot.com image 790x416]


idsfa: Seriously?

This long and no one (that I am not ignoring) posted it?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 790x416]




That would be clever, if the person who drew it had read the book. One of her heroes, Hugh Akston, leaves his position as a philosopher and works at a roadside diner. He could probably muster up a sandwich. There are plenty of other examples of her heroes accomplishing menial tasks.

This is the greater point that I was getting at up thread. Everyone thinks that they can just not read the book and form a reasoned opinion on her philosophy based on silly cartoons which would seem absurd to anyone who had actually read the damn thing.

Stupid cartoon is stupid.
 
2012-08-14 08:08:48 PM  

Silly Jesus: A Dark Evil Omen: Silly Jesus: Without Fail: Silly Jesus: Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."

Her heroes are sociopaths.

Hey, that's better than "Rand bad."

How are they sociopaths? I assume you are talking about Galt and Dagny etc? I don't think that they are sociopaths at all. They very much respect those around them that aren't unfairly / unjustly asking / demanding something from them.

Another thing you don't understand: The meaning of the term "sociopath".

so·ci·o·path/ˈsōsēōˌpaTH/
Noun:
A person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.


Hmm. Dictionary. Interesting choice. So, just so we're clear, we need to read hundreds of pages of bad sci-fi to understand a sophomoric personal philosophy that can be adequately summed up in a few sentences, but a few pages in the ICD or DSM is too much to understand a fairly prevalent real personality complex? Do I have that completely right?
 
2012-08-14 08:09:09 PM  
I can't vote for the R anyway since i found out that romney murdered that poor dude's wife.
 
2012-08-14 08:09:37 PM  

randomjsa: Yes, people grow up and embrace reality. Except the people who read socialist and communist literature, they never do.

Then we elect them president and wonder why people who never grew up make such lousy presidents.

Hopefully we can put an adult back in the WH in November.


Please tell me what Communist and or Socialist Literature is?

Anyone?
 
2012-08-14 08:09:52 PM  

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: Silly Jesus: Your intellectual curiosity is astounding.

Some of us have better pursuits for our intellectual curiosity than the rationalization of resentment.


So you are not in the least curious how the minds of those that you disagree with work? That must get very boring.
 
2012-08-14 08:10:29 PM  

Curse of the Goth Kids: Silly Jesus: Curse of the Goth Kids: Silly Jesus: Lando Lincoln: Silly Jesus: If that's all that you can muster though, I understand.

Spoken like a true Randian.

How so, grasshoppa?

Did you vote for Bush in 2000?

Nope. Libertarian. If I was forced to vote for one of the two main parties I'd usually vote Democrat...but my state is decidedly red so I don't bother.

You're a little old to be believing in Leprechauns, aren't you?


Que?
 
2012-08-14 08:11:26 PM  

Pocket Ninja: Ghastly: In that regard she is very like Tolkien (nobody reads the farking elf songs).

YOU LIE. Tolkien is scintillating reading. He was a storyteller's storyteller.

Frodo set down the ring and sank to the earth in repose. From his backpack, Sam produced a flask of water and some Elven Lembas, and from his waistpouch a small, sealed tin. The tin had been crafted by the tinsmith L'Ortheala'i of the second line of Durenorathala during the Second Age, on the High Night of Pancrea when the Solenil were running in the crystal water from high Holitla and the Darklmunnerors lay yet beneath the graven stones of their forebears who had not yet descended from the lofty heights of Arameir to craft their stony halls. Inside the tin lay a single pat of Glumeliian Butter, which had not been seen in the Shire since the first days of the last days of Sam's mother's father, known to some as his grandfather, who had traveled the Windy Trail beneath the Solemn Mist of the Mount of Holitakea to beseech the Caravan Master of Noriktha, himself of the second line of Durenorathala, to attend the upcoming Festival Harvest of Firhtyta and sell some butter there. Which Sam's mother's father/Grandfather did buy and save in the shallows of the cool Hoytr's water, and which Sam had dutifully carried with him from the moment of their departure.

With the butter knife that had had been crafted by his second cousin Hal, who had been borne during the Third Coming of the Second Rising of the Fourth Turning of the Seventh House and had traveled to Genedain to learn the craft of butter knife forging from the Elven smith Lorelairlahdsthgfksdghjk, son of Ka, Sam spread a pat of Glumeliian Butter on the Lembas and handed the small morsel to Frodo.

"Mmm," Frodo said. "This is some very tasty butter."


You beautiful bastard. I almost fell out of my chair there.
 
2012-08-14 08:13:06 PM  

Silly Jesus: One of her heroes, Hugh Akston, leaves his position as a philosopher and works at a roadside diner. He could probably muster up a sandwich.


Yeah, provided the Sysco truck shows up on time.
 
2012-08-14 08:14:31 PM  

spongeboob: Please tell me what Communist and or Socialist Literature is?


Anything that talks about the concerns of the poor, or how society should work together to care for the least fortunate. So, y'know, the Gospels.
 
2012-08-14 08:15:13 PM  

Loucifer: This is why Romney loves Ryan. Like Mitt, Paul can immediately abandon long held beliefs as soon as it becomes convenient. You don't find someone as breath takingly shallow as that every day. Mitt is extremely impressed.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
2012-08-14 08:15:19 PM  

Without Fail: Silly Jesus: How are they sociopaths? I assume you are talking about Galt and Dagny etc? I don't think that they are sociopaths at all. They very much respect those around them that aren't unfairly / unjustly asking / demanding something from them.

Her characters are sociopaths, by definition.

The media definition or the DSM IV definition? I may agree with you on the media's popular definition, but it doesn't fit the actual diagnostic criteria very well at all.

Her personal hero William Edward Hickman was in fact a sociopathic child murderer.

And this impacts the philosophy of Atlas Shrugged how?

I thought you knew something about her?

I do. I just didn't choose to focus on irrelevant side-shows that people lacking an argument resort to.

 
2012-08-14 08:15:55 PM  
More than anything else the fascist-apologist Ayn Rand hated all religions, and the Catholic Church in particular.

She's turning her grave that the mormoonie and the altar boy have teamed up to restore Amerika, and force feed us their vapid religiosly derived "values".
 
2012-08-14 08:15:59 PM  

sammyk: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?

The first I ever heard of it was from Machelle Malkin. I didn't bother looking into it any further. The cult like following it gets reminds me of The Turner Diaries.


So is this a troll? I say this because you sound like a Christian fundamentalist talking about why he won't read the Qur'an.
 
2012-08-14 08:17:07 PM  

A Dark Evil Omen: Silly Jesus: A Dark Evil Omen: Silly Jesus: Without Fail: Silly Jesus: Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."

Her heroes are sociopaths.

Hey, that's better than "Rand bad."

How are they sociopaths? I assume you are talking about Galt and Dagny etc? I don't think that they are sociopaths at all. They very much respect those around them that aren't unfairly / unjustly asking / demanding something from them.

Another thing you don't understand: The meaning of the term "sociopath".

so·ci·o·path/ˈsōsēōˌpaTH/
Noun:
A person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

Hmm. Dictionary. Interesting choice. So, just so we're clear, we need to read hundreds of pages of bad sci-fi to understand a sophomoric personal philosophy that can be adequately summed up in a few sentences, but a few pages in the ICD or DSM is too much to understand a fairly prevalent real personality complex? Do I have that completely right?


Huh? I was posting the "popular" definition of sociopath that he was using.

The characters don't fit the DSM IV criteria very well at all.
 
2012-08-14 08:18:12 PM  
Oh great a randian with a lot of free time on his hands. This thread should be fun.
 
2012-08-14 08:18:44 PM  

spongeboob: randomjsa: Yes, people grow up and embrace reality. Except the people who read socialist and communist literature, they never do.

Then we elect them president and wonder why people who never grew up make such lousy presidents.

Hopefully we can put an adult back in the WH in November.

Please tell me what Communist and or Socialist Literature is?

Anyone?


There's lots of good literature on socialist, communist and anarchist theory and practice. I used to have a variety of resource and literature links in my profile; I should redo them with updated information. To begin with I'd suggest checking out works by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, Rudolf Rocker and Peter Kropotkin. If you want fiction, George Orwell and Upton Sinclair have some significant classics.
 
2012-08-14 08:19:03 PM  

Craptastic: "The reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand," - Paul Ryan (2005)

"I grew up reading Ayn Rand and it taught me quite a bit about who I am and what my value systems are," he told the group, adding, "It's inspired me so much that it's required reading in my office for all my interns and my staff." - Paul Ryan (2005)

"I give out 'Atlas Shrugged' as Christmas presents." - Paul Ryan (2007)

"What's unique about what's happening today in government, in the world, in America, is that it's as if we're living in an Ayn Rand novel right now," Ryan said in a series of videos posted to Facebook in 2009. "I think Ayn Rand did the best job of anybody to build a moral case of capitalism, and that morality of capitalism is under assault." - Paul Ryan (2009)

"I, like millions of young people in America, read Rand's novels when I was young. I enjoyed them," he said. "...[but] I reject her philosophy." - Paul Ryan (2012)

so.....he was young in 2009, but now he's much more mature?

Dear Congressman Ryan,

THE INTERNET DOES NOT FORGET. Also, fark you, you farking liar.


God help us all. Republican party needs an industrial level hosing.
 
2012-08-14 08:19:09 PM  

Curse of the Goth Kids: Silly Jesus: One of her heroes, Hugh Akston, leaves his position as a philosopher and works at a roadside diner. He could probably muster up a sandwich.

Yeah, provided the Sysco truck shows up on time.


3.bp.blogspot.com

Again, I said at the outset that I like her ideas in theory, but don't necessarily believe that they would work in the real world.
 
2012-08-14 08:20:38 PM  

Silly Jesus: Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?

*reads first 50 posts*

Yep, meets the Fark formula.

Carry on.

Is this the thread where some Randian shows up and issues a blank dismissal of criticism by simply assuming none of the critics have ever read Rand (because if they did, they would know what a great intellectual and writer she was)?

Yep, carry on

Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."



A "great deal?" How many? Out of the first 50? Can you point some out? What I see is mostly, I HAVE read Rand, and she is BS"

Hell, just point out ONE
 
2012-08-14 08:20:40 PM  

Silly Jesus: Curse of the Goth Kids: Silly Jesus: One of her heroes, Hugh Akston, leaves his position as a philosopher and works at a roadside diner. He could probably muster up a sandwich.

Yeah, provided the Sysco truck shows up on time.

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 290x180]

Again, I said at the outset that I like her ideas in theory, but don't necessarily believe that they would work in the real world.


Then we agree that you're a little old to be believing in leprechauns. Glad to hear it.
 
2012-08-14 08:23:21 PM  

Pocket Ninja: YOU LIE. Tolkien is scintillating reading. He was a storyteller's storyteller.


Do that again, but this time as written by George RR Martin.
 
2012-08-14 08:24:43 PM  
lh4.googleusercontent.com
 
2012-08-14 08:25:27 PM  
I broke down and read Atlas Shrugged a few years ago, after hearing nearly everyone I knew rant about how god-awful it was; I wanted to see it for myself.

Holy shiat is that book farking god-awful. I had an easier time getting through Gravity's Rainbow, and that book makes Atlas Shrugged read like See Spot Run. I don't get the hard-on, figuratively or literally, people have for that book or Ayn Rand.
 
2012-08-14 08:25:30 PM  

Silly Jesus: A Dark Evil Omen: Silly Jesus: A Dark Evil Omen: Silly Jesus: Without Fail: Silly Jesus: Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."

Her heroes are sociopaths.

Hey, that's better than "Rand bad."

How are they sociopaths? I assume you are talking about Galt and Dagny etc? I don't think that they are sociopaths at all. They very much respect those around them that aren't unfairly / unjustly asking / demanding something from them.

Another thing you don't understand: The meaning of the term "sociopath".

so·ci·o·path/ˈsōsēōˌpaTH/
Noun:
A person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

Hmm. Dictionary. Interesting choice. So, just so we're clear, we need to read hundreds of pages of bad sci-fi to understand a sophomoric personal philosophy that can be adequately summed up in a few sentences, but a few pages in the ICD or DSM is too much to understand a fairly prevalent real personality complex? Do I have that completely right?

Huh? I was posting the "popular" definition of sociopath that he was using.

The characters don't fit the DSM IV criteria very well at all.


Lack of remorse, as indicated by rationalizing harm to others. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behavior. Deception. Constant irresponsibility. They fit the ICD-10 criteria even more closely.
 
2012-08-14 08:26:18 PM  
When Upton Sinclaire wrote his thinly veiled polemic of how great communism was, he wrote about interesting characters that engaged us in their conflict. Rand couldn't even set her books in the real world.
 
2012-08-14 08:27:09 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?

*reads first 50 posts*

Yep, meets the Fark formula.

Carry on.

Is this the thread where some Randian shows up and issues a blank dismissal of criticism by simply assuming none of the critics have ever read Rand (because if they did, they would know what a great intellectual and writer she was)?

Yep, carry on

Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."


A "great deal?" How many? Out of the first 50? Can you point some out? What I see is mostly, I HAVE read Rand, and she is BS"

Hell, just point out ONE


Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?


Second post in thread.
 
2012-08-14 08:27:45 PM  

Curse of the Goth Kids: Silly Jesus: Curse of the Goth Kids: Silly Jesus: One of her heroes, Hugh Akston, leaves his position as a philosopher and works at a roadside diner. He could probably muster up a sandwich.

Yeah, provided the Sysco truck shows up on time.

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 290x180]

Again, I said at the outset that I like her ideas in theory, but don't necessarily believe that they would work in the real world.

Then we agree that you're a little old to be believing in leprechauns. Glad to hear it.


Not following. Oh well.
 
2012-08-14 08:27:56 PM  
The following are true statements that can be easily verified.

Paul Ryan has stated repeatedly that Ayn Rand is an inspiration to him. He strongly admires her philosophy and credits her with influencing him more than all others... he recently required that his aides read her work. This admiration is well documented.

Ayn Rand stated repeatedly that William Edward Hickman was an inspiration to her. She strongly admired his philosophy and based a major character on him... because he kidnapped, murdered, eviscerated and dismembered a twelve year old girl for money. This admiration was well documented.

The Republican candidate for vice-president is the same Paul Ryan. Be afraid.
He was hand picked after careful research by Mitt Romney. Be very afraid.
 
2012-08-14 08:28:18 PM  

Paul Baumer: [lh4.googleusercontent.com image 525x719]


Y'know, that's probably the most interesting one of those I've seen yet. Well done, sir or madam as the case may be.
 
2012-08-14 08:29:32 PM  
So did he deny her three times?
 
2012-08-14 08:29:55 PM  

t3knomanser: spongeboob: Please tell me what Communist and or Socialist Literature is?

Anything that talks about the concerns of the poor, or how society should work together to care for the least fortunate. So, y'know, the Gospels.


Well Jesus was a long haired bearded sandal wearing migrant, sounds like a hippie to me and all hippies are de facto commies right?
 
2012-08-14 08:31:08 PM  

Fark You I'm Drunk: WhyteRaven74: Fark You I'm Drunk: I'm pretty sure Neil Peart and obsessive Rush fanboys are the only reason there are people past the age of 19 who like Ayn Rand.

Actually Peart got past Rand ages ago.

Peart did, but a lot of his fans didn't. 2112/Anthem/Closer to the Heart is based on Rand, therefore Ayn Rand is the greatest thing ever.


Rush sent Rand Paul a Cease and Desist letter, in a moment of epic lulz.
 
2012-08-14 08:32:33 PM  

peasandcarrots: I can almost always tell a modern objectivist writer by the way they write children. For some reason, children in objectivist books don't just talk like full-grown adults, but they talk like fully-actualized well-rounded intelligent adults who are capable of unpacking and analyzing all their inner demons and assessing a potential strategy for dealing with them.


Pretty much this. Long time ago I read a book named 'The Illuminati" by Larry Burkett that had elementary school age children breaking in to long winded soliloquies about the Liberals and how their policies destroy the world. Ten times more wacky than anything Rand ever wrote since Burkett adds in his fundamentalist Christian worldview. Throw in some anti-technology ranting and you've got grouchy-rightwing-uncle-in-a-book.

I bought the book because I enjoyed The Illuminatus Trilogy and thought it was similar. Wow, was I ever surprised by the difference. But it's worth reading just because it is so derpy and the writing is so bad (the author makes simple mistakes like not knowing how to spell 'Point Mugu' correctly). Amazon has it used for a penny plus shipping if you want a laugh.
 
2012-08-14 08:33:22 PM  

Mad_Radhu: So did he deny her three times?


OK. It's long been a stated goal of mine to open a restaurant simply for the sake of offering a Friday lunch special: deny the divinity of Christ and receive $1.00 off the price of your lunch.

As of now, the Tuesday special will officially be the same thing but for Ayn Rand instead of Jesus.
 
2012-08-14 08:33:26 PM  

Curse of the Goth Kids: Paul Baumer: [lh4.googleusercontent.com image 525x719]

Y'know, that's probably the most interesting one of those I've seen yet. Well done, sir or madam as the case may be.


Bei Danke - I am no Pocket Ninja, but I did one earlier that was well recieved - but I won't mind if you don't like it.

lh6.googleusercontent.com
 
2012-08-14 08:34:06 PM  
Had a friend in college who had as his .sig "Who is John Galt?"

Finally got around to asking him WTF John Galt was and he just kept saying "exactly!".

That and the Bob the Angry Flower is all I care to know about her writings.
 
2012-08-14 08:35:03 PM  

Britney Spear's Speculum: FTA:"I reject her philosophy," Ryan says firmly. "It's an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a person's view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas,"

Funny how he
1) Just came to this realization "just now"
2) It is now derpy to like and also denounce Ayn Rand......Double yew, tee, eff


Even funnier is how un-Ryan-like the philosophies of Thomas Aquinas are:
For it matters not whether one has the grace of tongues, or the gift of faith, or any other gift such as prophecy; these do not bring life without charity.
 
2012-08-14 08:36:37 PM  
Silly Jesus:

Hurrah! An honest-to-goodness Libertarian. They're always funny, Ask him/her about how exactly their plan to do away with all forms of personal identification is going to work. Thats usually good for a giggle,
 
2012-08-14 08:37:29 PM  
Whether he publicly denounces her sh*t or not, the dude is still creepy.

Both of them, really. Yeah, that's your "alternative" to Obama, all right.

Because apparently he's been f*cking up or something.
 
2012-08-14 08:41:40 PM  

Without Fail: The following are true statements that can be easily verified.

Paul Ryan has stated repeatedly that Ayn Rand is an inspiration to him. He strongly admires her philosophy and credits her with influencing him more than all others... he recently required that his aides read her work. This admiration is well documented.

Ayn Rand stated repeatedly that William Edward Hickman was an inspiration to her. She strongly admired his philosophy and based a major character on him... because he kidnapped, murdered, eviscerated and dismembered a twelve year old girl for money. This admiration was well documented.

The Republican candidate for vice-president is the same Paul Ryan. Be afraid.
He was hand picked after careful research by Mitt Romney. Be very afraid.


Keep farkin that chicken.

In 1928, the writer Ayn Rand began planning a novel called The Little Street, whose hero, Danny Renahan, was to be based on "what Hickman suggested to [her]." The novel was never finished, but Rand wrote notes for it which were published after her death in the book Journals of Ayn Rand. Rand wanted the hero of her novel to be "A Hickman with a purpose. And without the degeneracy. It is more exact to say that the model is not Hickman, but what Hickman suggested to me."[3] Rand scholars Chris Matthew Sciabarra and Jennifer Burns both interpret Rand's interest in Hickman as a sign of her early admiration of the ideas of Friedrich Nietzsche, especially since she several times referred to Hickman as a "Superman" (in the Nietzschean sense).[4][5]

Link

You are right, on the most base level. The level that a 5 year old just learning to read would interpret her thoughts and actions vis-a-vis Hickman.

You have any criticisms of her actual work, or do you just enjoy asinine talking points?
 
2012-08-14 08:45:42 PM  

MinkeyMan: Silly Jesus:

Hurrah! An honest-to-goodness Libertarian. They're always funny, Ask him/her about how exactly their plan to do away with all forms of personal identification is going to work. Thats usually good for a giggle,


I didn't know that I had planned to do that. I'll have to get back to you.

Ya know, if someone's ideas mostly line up with a certain party, they must therefore believe in everything that that party has ever said or proposed. That's how it works, right? Derp.
 
2012-08-14 08:46:54 PM  

ps69: What happened to that trend of "Going Galt" that was reported to be widespread on Fox News shortly after Obama was elected and was being threatened by all the captains of industry who ran everything from right wing blogs to far right wing blogs. Did anyone make good on that promise, or did they sit back and collect their share of the massively growing corporate profits and continued low tax rate?


Also, if we increase taxes as much as Obama wants to (to somewhat less than 90s levels), we'll have massive capital flight and another round of Job Creators going Galt. Just like we did in the 90s.
 
2012-08-14 08:46:59 PM  

Silly Jesus: In 1928, the writer Ayn Rand began planning a novel called The Little Street, whose hero, Danny Renahan, was to be based on "what Hickman suggested to [her]." The novel was never finished, but Rand wrote notes for it which were published after her death in the book Journals of Ayn Rand. Rand wanted the hero of her novel to be "A Hickman with a purpose. And without the degeneracy. It is more exact to say that the model is not Hickman, but what Hickman suggested to me."[3] Rand scholars Chris Matthew Sciabarra and Jennifer Burns both interpret Rand's interest in Hickman as a sign of her early admiration of the ideas of Friedrich Nietzsche, especially since she several times referred to Hickman as a "Superman" (in the Nietzschean sense).[4][5]

Link

You are right, on the most base level. The level that a 5 year old just learning to read would interpret her thoughts and actions vis-a-vis Hickman.

You have any criticisms of her actual work, or do you just enjoy asinine talking points?


Good effort on the white knighting, but she's not going to sleep with you, you know.
 
2012-08-14 08:50:40 PM  

Parthenogenetic: Silly Jesus: In 1928, the writer Ayn Rand began planning a novel called The Little Street, whose hero, Danny Renahan, was to be based on "what Hickman suggested to [her]." The novel was never finished, but Rand wrote notes for it which were published after her death in the book Journals of Ayn Rand. Rand wanted the hero of her novel to be "A Hickman with a purpose. And without the degeneracy. It is more exact to say that the model is not Hickman, but what Hickman suggested to me."[3] Rand scholars Chris Matthew Sciabarra and Jennifer Burns both interpret Rand's interest in Hickman as a sign of her early admiration of the ideas of Friedrich Nietzsche, especially since she several times referred to Hickman as a "Superman" (in the Nietzschean sense).[4][5]

Link

You are right, on the most base level. The level that a 5 year old just learning to read would interpret her thoughts and actions vis-a-vis Hickman.

You have any criticisms of her actual work, or do you just enjoy asinine talking points?

Good effort on the white knighting, but she's not going to sleep with you, you know.


No kidding. What masochistic type would spent that much energy defending such a laughable pile of ideologically selfish (and badly written) garbage?

Rhetorical question, mind you....
 
2012-08-14 08:50:41 PM  

Parthenogenetic:
Good effort on the white knighting, but she's not going to sleep with you, you know.


I dunno, I'd say that depends on how handy he is with a shovel.
 
2012-08-14 08:51:21 PM  

Silly Jesus: MinkeyMan: Silly Jesus:

Hurrah! An honest-to-goodness Libertarian. They're always funny, Ask him/her about how exactly their plan to do away with all forms of personal identification is going to work. Thats usually good for a giggle,

I didn't know that I had planned to do that. I'll have to get back to you.

Ya know, if someone's ideas mostly line up with a certain party, they must therefore believe in everything that that party has ever said or proposed. That's how it works, right? Derp.


Well now you've got me curious. How do you square personally believing in a personal ID requirement with the tenets of Libertarianism that you DO like?
 
2012-08-14 08:51:23 PM  

Silly Jesus: MinkeyMan: Silly Jesus:

Hurrah! An honest-to-goodness Libertarian. They're always funny, Ask him/her about how exactly their plan to do away with all forms of personal identification is going to work. Thats usually good for a giggle,

I didn't know that I had planned to do that. I'll have to get back to you.

Ya know, if someone's ideas mostly line up with a certain party, they must therefore believe in everything that that party has ever said or proposed. That's how it works, right? Derp.


Ah, you are a LINO then. Should have know a real Libertarian was too to hope for.
 
2012-08-14 08:51:44 PM  
media.tumblr.com

This is a pretty good book.

Anyone whose first exposure to Rand is through this book is always really, really, really, really, really disappointed with the rest of her oeuvre.
 
2012-08-14 08:52:57 PM  

Teufelaffe: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?

It's pretty derpy. Bad writing and the purest form of the "I've got mine, fark you" philosophy. If you're in the mood for an author with Objectivist leanings, try The Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind. Much better writing, and he manages to hide his "Individualism GOOOD, collectivism BAAAD" pretty well until the fourth or fifth book.


That was my experience. However, his villains and heroes are all caricatures. Even in the first book. Richard Cypher/Rahl was a paragon of virtue while Darken Rahl was so unbelievably evil just for the sake of being evil.

I think it was the fifth book (Soul of the Fire) where the Objectivism became apparent, and the next one (Faith of the Fallen) was Terry Goodkind's attempt to beat his readers over the head with Atlas Shrugged. Seeing that Goodkind was heavily influenced by Ayn Rand affected the quality of the entire series, even those books where it isn't apparent.

/read the entire series.
//sucked after Temple of the Winds
///got even worse after Chainfire
////barely finished the series
//unemployment gave me a lot of free time
 
2012-08-14 08:53:09 PM  

TV's Vinnie: BojanglesPaladin: Although in Fairness, Moore based Rorschach on the Question anyway, so....

A cute little side-story was when The Question first heard about the Rorschach character, identified with him, and tried to emulate him.

[media.comicvine.com image 600x382]
[www.revolutionsf.com image 317x500]
[www.revolutionsf.com image 300x492]
[www.revolutionsf.com image 500x195]
[www.revolutionsf.com image 400x350]

By the end of the story, The Question came to the obvious conclusion...........

[www.revolutionsf.com image 96x500]


Rorschach was the way he was because Moore thought the Question and Mr. A were annoying, idiotic prats. So, like many characters Moore creates to skewer things, they're extreme. Apparently, after Watchmen, Ditko was asked if he knew about Rorschach; he said that yes, the character was like Mr. A, only insane.

To be equally fair, as much as I like Moore, 'V' was just as stupid as Mr. A. Just as many of the tenants of Ditko's Objectivism aren't workable in the real world, many of the tenants of Moore's anarchist philosophy in 'V for Vendetta' aren't workable, either.

Hint: the problem isn't the philosophy, guys. It's that fact that humans suck and many will either ignore or try to game your 'perfect moral system'.
 
2012-08-14 08:53:51 PM  

whidbey: Parthenogenetic: Silly Jesus: In 1928, the writer Ayn Rand began planning a novel called The Little Street, whose hero, Danny Renahan, was to be based on "what Hickman suggested to [her]." The novel was never finished, but Rand wrote notes for it which were published after her death in the book Journals of Ayn Rand. Rand wanted the hero of her novel to be "A Hickman with a purpose. And without the degeneracy. It is more exact to say that the model is not Hickman, but what Hickman suggested to me."[3] Rand scholars Chris Matthew Sciabarra and Jennifer Burns both interpret Rand's interest in Hickman as a sign of her early admiration of the ideas of Friedrich Nietzsche, especially since she several times referred to Hickman as a "Superman" (in the Nietzschean sense).[4][5]

Link

You are right, on the most base level. The level that a 5 year old just learning to read would interpret her thoughts and actions vis-a-vis Hickman.

You have any criticisms of her actual work, or do you just enjoy asinine talking points?

Good effort on the white knighting, but she's not going to sleep with you, you know.

No kidding. What masochistic type would spent that much energy defending such a laughable pile of ideologically selfish (and badly written) garbage?

blogs-images.forbes.com

Rhetorical question, mind you....


Oh.
 
2012-08-14 08:54:35 PM  

Parthenogenetic: Silly Jesus: In 1928, the writer Ayn Rand began planning a novel called The Little Street, whose hero, Danny Renahan, was to be based on "what Hickman suggested to [her]." The novel was never finished, but Rand wrote notes for it which were published after her death in the book Journals of Ayn Rand. Rand wanted the hero of her novel to be "A Hickman with a purpose. And without the degeneracy. It is more exact to say that the model is not Hickman, but what Hickman suggested to me."[3] Rand scholars Chris Matthew Sciabarra and Jennifer Burns both interpret Rand's interest in Hickman as a sign of her early admiration of the ideas of Friedrich Nietzsche, especially since she several times referred to Hickman as a "Superman" (in the Nietzschean sense).[4][5]

Link

You are right, on the most base level. The level that a 5 year old just learning to read would interpret her thoughts and actions vis-a-vis Hickman.

You have any criticisms of her actual work, or do you just enjoy asinine talking points?

Good effort on the white knighting, but she's not going to sleep with you, you know.


But she's so farking hot!
 
2012-08-14 08:55:35 PM  
In "Coming to America," the Princes renounces the throne of Zamunda to prove to the girl his love, but he ends up getting the girl, and taking his rightful place next to the thone.
 
2012-08-14 08:56:10 PM  

MinkeyMan: Silly Jesus: MinkeyMan: Silly Jesus:

Hurrah! An honest-to-goodness Libertarian. They're always funny, Ask him/her about how exactly their plan to do away with all forms of personal identification is going to work. Thats usually good for a giggle,

I didn't know that I had planned to do that. I'll have to get back to you.

Ya know, if someone's ideas mostly line up with a certain party, they must therefore believe in everything that that party has ever said or proposed. That's how it works, right? Derp.

Ah, you are a LINO then. Should have know a real Libertarian was too to hope for.


So only real Libertarians / Democrats / Republicans believe every single idea of said party? Interesting.
 
2012-08-14 08:56:20 PM  

Silly Jesus: Without Fail: The following are true statements that can be easily verified.

Paul Ryan has stated repeatedly that Ayn Rand is an inspiration to him. He strongly admires her philosophy and credits her with influencing him more than all others... he recently required that his aides read her work. This admiration is well documented.

Ayn Rand stated repeatedly that William Edward Hickman was an inspiration to her. She strongly admired his philosophy and based a major character on him... because he kidnapped, murdered, eviscerated and dismembered a twelve year old girl for money. This admiration was well documented.

The Republican candidate for vice-president is the same Paul Ryan. Be afraid.
He was hand picked after careful research by Mitt Romney. Be very afraid.

Keep farkin that chicken.

In 1928, the writer Ayn Rand began planning a novel called The Little Street, whose hero, Danny Renahan, was to be based on "what Hickman suggested to [her]." The novel was never finished, but Rand wrote notes for it which were published after her death in the book Journals of Ayn Rand. Rand wanted the hero of her novel to be "A Hickman with a purpose. And without the degeneracy. It is more exact to say that the model is not Hickman, but what Hickman suggested to me."[3] Rand scholars Chris Matthew Sciabarra and Jennifer Burns both interpret Rand's interest in Hickman as a sign of her early admiration of the ideas of Friedrich Nietzsche, especially since she several times referred to Hickman as a "Superman" (in the Nietzschean sense).[4][5]

Link

You are right, on the most base level. The level that a 5 year old just learning to read would interpret her thoughts and actions vis-a-vis Hickman.

You have any criticisms of her actual work, or do you just enjoy asinine talking points?


/You're a gallant defender, but she still won't sleep with you.
//But only because she's dead
///If she was alive, though, she would totally bone you.
 
2012-08-14 08:59:49 PM  

Paul Baumer: Silly Jesus: MinkeyMan: Silly Jesus:

Hurrah! An honest-to-goodness Libertarian. They're always funny, Ask him/her about how exactly their plan to do away with all forms of personal identification is going to work. Thats usually good for a giggle,

I didn't know that I had planned to do that. I'll have to get back to you.

Ya know, if someone's ideas mostly line up with a certain party, they must therefore believe in everything that that party has ever said or proposed. That's how it works, right? Derp.

Well now you've got me curious. How do you square personally believing in a personal ID requirement with the tenets of Libertarianism that you DO like?


I don't follow the straw man that you seem to be setting up.
 
2012-08-14 09:00:05 PM  

Fark You I'm Drunk: Silly Jesus: Yes. Believe it or not the only discussion about Mein Kampf isn't "Hitler bad", "I agree", "OK, next book."

"Hey, I think that Hitler guy was on to something"?


i.dailymail.co.uk

//Thought Hitler had some good ideas
// But marijuana turned us into peace loving hippies.
 
2012-08-14 09:00:23 PM  
FAN RADIAN FACT #2617: AYAN RAND WAS A FAN OF A CHILD ABDUCTOR AND SERIAL KILLER:

http://atheism.about.com/b/2011/05/11/ayn-rand-sociopath-who-admired - a -serial-killer.htm

http://exiledonline.com/atlas-shrieked-why-ayn-rands-right-wing-follo w ers-are-scarier-than-the-manson-family-and-the-gruesome-story-of-the-s erial-killer-who-stole-ayn-rands-heart/


www.peikoff.commurderpedia.org
exiledonline.com

"Hickman kidnapped Parker on December 15, 1927, by appearing at her junior high school, claiming that her father, Perry Parker, was ill, and that he wanted to see his daughter. He did not realize there were twin Parker daughters, and did not know either child's name, but the school administrator turned one of the girls over to him. The next day Hickman sent the first of three ransom notes to the Parker home, demanding $1,500 in $20 gold certificates.

On December 19, Parker delivered the ransom in Los Angeles but in return Hickman delivered the girl's dismembered body. Her arms and legs had been severed and her internal organs removed. A towel stuffed into her body to absorb blood led police to Hickman's apartment building, but he managed to escape. A $100,000 reward was offered for his capture, and for nearly a week Hickman eluded authorities."


Yep. This is the guy that Ayn patterned John Galt after because of his "rebel who lives by his own rules" attitude.
 
2012-08-14 09:00:54 PM  
poor bastard is in omaha

farm5.static.flickr.com

i got 25 pages into atlas shrugged once but then literally shrugged and said 'this is stupid and poorly written.'
 
2012-08-14 09:02:02 PM  

Huggermugger: Silly Jesus: Without Fail: The following are true statements that can be easily verified.

Paul Ryan has stated repeatedly that Ayn Rand is an inspiration to him. He strongly admires her philosophy and credits her with influencing him more than all others... he recently required that his aides read her work. This admiration is well documented.

Ayn Rand stated repeatedly that William Edward Hickman was an inspiration to her. She strongly admired his philosophy and based a major character on him... because he kidnapped, murdered, eviscerated and dismembered a twelve year old girl for money. This admiration was well documented.

The Republican candidate for vice-president is the same Paul Ryan. Be afraid.
He was hand picked after careful research by Mitt Romney. Be very afraid.

Keep farkin that chicken.

In 1928, the writer Ayn Rand began planning a novel called The Little Street, whose hero, Danny Renahan, was to be based on "what Hickman suggested to [her]." The novel was never finished, but Rand wrote notes for it which were published after her death in the book Journals of Ayn Rand. Rand wanted the hero of her novel to be "A Hickman with a purpose. And without the degeneracy. It is more exact to say that the model is not Hickman, but what Hickman suggested to me."[3] Rand scholars Chris Matthew Sciabarra and Jennifer Burns both interpret Rand's interest in Hickman as a sign of her early admiration of the ideas of Friedrich Nietzsche, especially since she several times referred to Hickman as a "Superman" (in the Nietzschean sense).[4][5]

Link

You are right, on the most base level. The level that a 5 year old just learning to read would interpret her thoughts and actions vis-a-vis Hickman.

You have any criticisms of her actual work, or do you just enjoy asinine talking points?

/You're a gallant defender, but she still won't sleep with you.
//But only because she's dead
///If she was alive, though, she would totally bone you.


You are making my pants get tight in my special region.
 
2012-08-14 09:02:03 PM  
Hey guys, Attila the Hun may not have been 100% bad, only mostly but you know some good stuff also.

Also, I don't understand your earthman ways.
 
2012-08-14 09:04:08 PM  

Lando Lincoln: HellRaisingHoosier: Is this legitimately what the book is about? I've never read it, or even a summary of it. We need to figure out a way to make all the bankers and CEO's leave. They've been farking a lot of shiat up.

Here's a much more thorough and undoubtedly accurate summary of it. Even the summary is extremely tedious. Ayn Rand sucked as a writer.

SparkNotes: Atlas Shrugged


Summary of the summary: "In an environment of worsening economic conditions, Dagny Taggart, vice president in charge of operations, works to repair Taggart Transcontinental's crumbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz "
 
2012-08-14 09:05:23 PM  

Pocket Ninja: I'm willing to bet quite a bit of money that if you selected, at random, any 10 individuals who have ever posted in a thread about Ayn Rand (either favorably or unfavorably), locked them in a room without any pre-warning or internet access, and then asked them each to provide a 2-minute summary of "Atlas Shrugged," no more than 2 or 3 would be able to do so.


...once you get done summarizing the book and its thesis, what are you going to do for the other 1:45, talk about rape? I've never before in my life read a thousand-page book that had so little to say. Goddamn Twilight had more of a point.
 
2012-08-14 09:07:40 PM  

Silly Jesus: Jaws_Victim: What, Ayn Rand thread and no one posts the classic sequel?

Allow me:
[1.bp.blogspot.com image 790x416]

idsfa: Seriously?

This long and no one (that I am not ignoring) posted it?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 790x416]



That would be clever, if the person who drew it had read the book. One of her heroes, Hugh Akston, leaves his position as a philosopher and works at a roadside diner. He could probably muster up a sandwich. There are plenty of other examples of her heroes accomplishing menial tasks.

This is the greater point that I was getting at up thread. Everyone thinks that they can just not read the book and form a reasoned opinion on her philosophy based on silly cartoons which would seem absurd to anyone who had actually read the damn thing.

Stupid cartoon is stupid.


The point of the cartoon isn't LITERALLY that the heroes can't make lunch, silly poster. The point is that the novel has a flawed premise, they can leave society forever but without the "stupid" laborer who isn't a billionaire to do your dirty work, you are forced to do it and become the laborer yourself. This is instead of being Titans of industry with mansions, servants, cooks, and drivers to do everything for them. No rich person is going to abandon their comfortable lifestyle and live in a shack because the government attempted to raise taxes (or the laughable plot of the novel where the government pretty much takes over everything and screws it all up and corporations are poor, harmless victims who only do good for their work force.)

Rand boils down to, I got mine, don't you farking touch it. This is delightful, if you're a psychopath.

/yes, I did read the novel
//my grade school education leads to the opinions above, pick it apart English Majors. now is your time to shine
 
2012-08-14 09:07:58 PM  

Silly Jesus: You are right, on the most base level. The level that a 5 year old just learning to read would interpret her thoughts and actions vis-a-vis Hickman.

You have any criticisms of her actual work, or do you just enjoy asinine talking points?


Listen, idiot, read the Journals of Ayn Rand read the quotes that she made to newspapers AT THAT TIME.
As I said, it is easily verifiable. Can you actually think for yourself? Here

She actually said, repeatedly, that she admired him. She said:

[William Hickman's trial] is the amazing picture of a man with no regard whatever for all that society holds sacred, and with a consciousness all his own. A man who really stands alone, in action and in soul... A strong man can eventually trample society under his feet. He was not strong enough. But is that his crime? That he was not able to serve, when he felt worthy to rule; to obey, when he wanted to command? He was superior and he wanted to live as such - and his is the one thing society does not permit.

That's a quote. Get it? She admired him because he wasn't bound by morals and ethos and she considered him a superman. This isn't secret stuff, her writings gush about the guy. And Ryan gushes about her.

Quit projecting. Read the facts for yourself.
 
2012-08-14 09:09:10 PM  

Omahawg: poor bastard is in omaha

[farm5.static.flickr.com image 500x375]

i got 25 pages into atlas shrugged once but then literally shrugged and said 'this is stupid and poorly written.'


No surprise since that's in the "rich white and conservative" part of town
 
2012-08-14 09:16:19 PM  

Jaws_Victim: Silly Jesus: Jaws_Victim: What, Ayn Rand thread and no one posts the classic sequel?

Allow me:
[1.bp.blogspot.com image 790x416]

idsfa: Seriously?

This long and no one (that I am not ignoring) posted it?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 790x416]



That would be clever, if the person who drew it had read the book. One of her heroes, Hugh Akston, leaves his position as a philosopher and works at a roadside diner. He could probably muster up a sandwich. There are plenty of other examples of her heroes accomplishing menial tasks.

This is the greater point that I was getting at up thread. Everyone thinks that they can just not read the book and form a reasoned opinion on her philosophy based on silly cartoons which would seem absurd to anyone who had actually read the damn thing.

Stupid cartoon is stupid.

The point of the cartoon isn't LITERALLY that the heroes can't make lunch, silly poster. The point is that the novel has a flawed premise, they can leave society forever but without the "stupid" laborer who isn't a billionaire to do your dirty work, you are forced to do it and become the laborer yourself. This is instead of being Titans of industry with mansions, servants, cooks, and drivers to do everything for them. No rich person is going to abandon their comfortable lifestyle and live in a shack because the government attempted to raise taxes (or the laughable plot of the novel where the government pretty much takes over everything and screws it all up and corporations are poor, harmless victims who only do good for their work force.)

Rand boils down to, I got mine, don't you farking touch it. This is delightful, if you're a psychopath.

/yes, I did read the novel
//my grade school education leads to the opinions above, pick it apart English Majors. now is your time to shine


Either we read different books or you forgot a great deal bout Galt's Gulch.
 
2012-08-14 09:19:22 PM  

Without Fail: Silly Jesus: You are right, on the most base level. The level that a 5 year old just learning to read would interpret her thoughts and actions vis-a-vis Hickman.

You have any criticisms of her actual work, or do you just enjoy asinine talking points?

Listen, idiot, read the Journals of Ayn Rand read the quotes that she made to newspapers AT THAT TIME.
As I said, it is easily verifiable. Can you actually think for yourself? Here

She actually said, repeatedly, that she admired him. She said:

[William Hickman's trial] is the amazing picture of a man with no regard whatever for all that society holds sacred, and with a consciousness all his own. A man who really stands alone, in action and in soul... A strong man can eventually trample society under his feet. He was not strong enough. But is that his crime? That he was not able to serve, when he felt worthy to rule; to obey, when he wanted to command? He was superior and he wanted to live as such - and his is the one thing society does not permit.

That's a quote. Get it? She admired him because he wasn't bound by morals and ethos and she considered him a superman. This isn't secret stuff, her writings gush about the guy. And Ryan gushes about her.

Quit projecting. Read the facts for yourself.


Ooh, you mad.

Sorry that your reading comprehension is so lacking. Maybe it will pass.

Good day sir.
 
2012-08-14 09:20:28 PM  
Somewhere hidden inside the collected works of Ayn Rand there's a 2 page pamphlet of interesting ideas trying to force its way out. The trouble is the other 1998 pages.
 
2012-08-14 09:22:20 PM  

Curse of the Goth Kids: Hey guys, Attila the Hun may not have been 100% bad, only mostly but you know some good stuff also.

Also, I don't understand your earthman ways.


Neither do you understand my advanced technology.

It is a thing of great sadness.

img100.imageshack.us
 
IP
2012-08-14 09:22:39 PM  

Pocket Ninja: Ghastly: In that regard she is very like Tolkien (nobody reads the farking elf songs).

YOU LIE. Tolkien is scintillating reading. He was a storyteller's storyteller.

Frodo set down the ring and sank to the earth in repose. From his backpack, Sam produced a flask of water and some Elven Lembas, and from his waistpouch a small, sealed tin. The tin had been crafted by the tinsmith L'Ortheala'i of the second line of Durenorathala during the Second Age, on the High Night of Pancrea when the Solenil were running in the crystal water from high Holitla and the Darklmunnerors lay yet beneath the graven stones of their forebears who had not yet descended from the lofty heights of Arameir to craft their stony halls. Inside the tin lay a single pat of Glumeliian Butter, which had not been seen in the Shire since the first days of the last days of Sam's mother's father, known to some as his grandfather, who had traveled the Windy Trail beneath the Solemn Mist of the Mount of Holitakea to beseech the Caravan Master of Noriktha, himself of the second line of Durenorathala, to attend the upcoming Festival Harvest of Firhtyta and sell some butter there. Which Sam's mother's father/Grandfather did buy and save in the shallows of the cool Hoytr's water, and which Sam had dutifully carried with him from the moment of their departure.

With the butter knife that had had been crafted by his second cousin Hal, who had been borne during the Third Coming of the Second Rising of the Fourth Turning of the Seventh House and had traveled to Genedain to learn the craft of butter knife forging from the Elven smith Lorelairlahdsthgfksdghjk, son of Ka, Sam spread a pat of Glumeliian Butter on the Lembas and handed the small morsel to Frodo.

"Mmm," Frodo said. "This is some very tasty butter."


I bow to your magnificence, good sir (or madam).
 
2012-08-14 09:23:31 PM  

Silly Jesus: Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?

*reads first 50 posts*

Yep, meets the Fark formula.

Carry on.

Is this the thread where some Randian shows up and issues a blank dismissal of criticism by simply assuming none of the critics have ever read Rand (because if they did, they would know what a great intellectual and writer she was)?

Yep, carry on

Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."


A "great deal?" How many? Out of the first 50? Can you point some out? What I see is mostly, I HAVE read Rand, and she is BS"

Hell, just point out ONE

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?

Second post in thread.


He was asking if it was bad, he did not say it was or that he hated it or Rand

I guess you have to play ignorant to back up your lie
 
2012-08-14 09:28:47 PM  

Silly Jesus: Jaws_Victim: Silly Jesus: Jaws_Victim: What, Ayn Rand thread and no one posts the classic sequel?

Allow me:
[1.bp.blogspot.com image 790x416]

idsfa: Seriously?

This long and no one (that I am not ignoring) posted it?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 790x416]



That would be clever, if the person who drew it had read the book. One of her heroes, Hugh Akston, leaves his position as a philosopher and works at a roadside diner. He could probably muster up a sandwich. There are plenty of other examples of her heroes accomplishing menial tasks.

This is the greater point that I was getting at up thread. Everyone thinks that they can just not read the book and form a reasoned opinion on her philosophy based on silly cartoons which would seem absurd to anyone who had actually read the damn thing.

Stupid cartoon is stupid.

The point of the cartoon isn't LITERALLY that the heroes can't make lunch, silly poster. The point is that the novel has a flawed premise, they can leave society forever but without the "stupid" laborer who isn't a billionaire to do your dirty work, you are forced to do it and become the laborer yourself. This is instead of being Titans of industry with mansions, servants, cooks, and drivers to do everything for them. No rich person is going to abandon their comfortable lifestyle and live in a shack because the government attempted to raise taxes (or the laughable plot of the novel where the government pretty much takes over everything and screws it all up and corporations are poor, harmless victims who only do good for their work force.)

Rand boils down to, I got mine, don't you farking touch it. This is delightful, if you're a psychopath.

/yes, I did read the novel
//my grade school education leads to the opinions above, pick it apart English Majors. now is your time to shine

Either we read different books or you forgot a great deal bout Galt's Gulch.


So what? "I used to be a Titan of Steel manufacturing, now I bake bread! Oh how much better life is now that I'm not forced to give my recipe for stronger lighter steel to the world at large for its many uses! WHAT ABOUT MY PROFIT MARGIN?"

It was pretty hard to read though, what with my eyes constantly rolling.
 
2012-08-14 09:31:25 PM  
From Objectivist to Jesuit is not much of an improvement.
 
2012-08-14 09:32:33 PM  

Omahawg: poor bastard is in omaha

[farm5.static.flickr.com image 500x375]

i got 25 pages into atlas shrugged once but then literally shrugged and said 'this is stupid and poorly written.'


I would run for city council in Omaha just to get that thoroughfare renamed.
 
2012-08-14 09:34:28 PM  

Meethos: FlashHarry: "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

-- Paul Krugman

That's not Paul Krugman's btw.

It belongs to some guy named John Rogers


One of the comments to that article: "There are entire university courses and programs dedicated to studying her works [snark about Women's Studies, African American Studies etc. in 4...3...2...]; there is an active Ayn Rand Society chapter of 50+ members of the American Philosophical Association; Cambridge University Press is publishing an academic book on her ethics--adding to a growing bookshelf of academic books and articles on Objectivism; there are tenured professors who are self-described Objectivists [hey waitafugginminute, I thought Ivory Tower Intellectuals were all libruls!]; Objectivist scholars are regularly interviewed on TV shows--often several times per week [citation needed]."
 
2012-08-14 09:35:57 PM  

Silly Jesus: Without Fail: The following are true statements that can be easily verified.

Paul Ryan has stated repeatedly that Ayn Rand is an inspiration to him. He strongly admires her philosophy and credits her with influencing him more than all others... he recently required that his aides read her work. This admiration is well documented.

Ayn Rand stated repeatedly that William Edward Hickman was an inspiration to her. She strongly admired his philosophy and based a major character on him... because he kidnapped, murdered, eviscerated and dismembered a twelve year old girl for money. This admiration was well documented.

The Republican candidate for vice-president is the same Paul Ryan. Be afraid.
He was hand picked after careful research by Mitt Romney. Be very afraid.

Keep farkin that chicken.

In 1928, the writer Ayn Rand began planning a novel called The Little Street, whose hero, Danny Renahan, was to be based on "what Hickman suggested to [her]." The novel was never finished, but Rand wrote notes for it which were published after her death in the book Journals of Ayn Rand. Rand wanted the hero of her novel to be "A Hickman with a purpose. And without the degeneracy. It is more exact to say that the model is not Hickman, but what Hickman suggested to me."[3] Rand scholars Chris Matthew Sciabarra and Jennifer Burns both interpret Rand's interest in Hickman as a sign of her early admiration of the ideas of Friedrich Nietzsche, especially since she several times referred to Hickman as a "Superman" (in the Nietzschean sense).[4][5]

Link

You are right, on the most base level. The level that a 5 year old just learning to read would interpret her thoughts and actions vis-a-vis Hickman.

You have any criticisms of her actual work, or do you just enjoy asinine talking points?


She's a farking hypocrite. That's all you need to know, dimwit.
 
2012-08-14 09:39:19 PM  

FlashHarry: i waded through the fountainhead when i was 15 or so. i tried atlas shrugged, but gave up a third of the way through. it was just so badly written.


No, see, it wasn't that Atlas Shrugged was badly written ... it's just that your mom was drinking (and probably smoking) when she was pregnant with you. Your brain isn't obviously "Down-ee", but it is.
 
2012-08-14 09:41:12 PM  

enry: Had a friend in college who had as his .sig "Who is John Galt?"

Finally got around to asking him WTF John Galt was and he just kept saying "exactly!".

That and the Bob the Angry Flower is all I care to know about her writings.


Much as is the case with Karl Marx, Jesus and Muhammad, the worst advertisement for Ayn Rand is Randroids.
 
2012-08-14 09:43:47 PM  
Her non-fiction seems marginally more readable.
Not particularly solid philosophy, mind you. But at least the screeds in Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal and The Virtue of Selfishness were shorter and stand alone.

I've wondered a few times if Neil Stephenson wrote "Diamond Age" in part as a rebuttal to some of her work.
 
2012-08-14 09:45:21 PM  

Lando Lincoln: HellRaisingHoosier: Is this legitimately what the book is about? I've never read it, or even a summary of it. We need to figure out a way to make all the bankers and CEO's leave. They've been farking a lot of shiat up.

Here's a much more thorough and undoubtedly accurate summary of it. Even the summary is extremely tedious. Ayn Rand sucked as a writer.

SparkNotes: Atlas Shrugged


Jesus, that was almost as bad as the book.

/and i use the term 'book' loosely
//it's a bound collection of pages, mmmyes
 
2012-08-14 09:50:30 PM  

sammyk: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?

The first I ever heard of it was from Machelle Malkin. I didn't bother looking into it any further. The cult like following it gets reminds me of The Turner Diaries.


This is the first I ever heard of her.

4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-08-14 09:53:26 PM  

Silly Jesus: Gimmick: The plot of Atlas Shrugged in 12 seconds.

HA! That's exactly like the moochers.


The moochers and looters are the people in Galt's Gulch. The start up capital for their society was gained by piracy of foreign aid. Sure, Ragnar and the others use the self serving justification that they are just stealing back the tax money that was stolen from them, but they are stealing aid that was paid for by the taxes of everyone in the country not only the people who move to the gulch. Ragnar even admits literally in the text of the book that he's stealing. He says he's a reverse robin hood who is stealing from the poor to give to teh rich. He adds the adjective "thieving" to "poor" to rationalize but all thieves rationalize their crimes. Their whole society is founded on stolen goods.

Galt and his followers have decided that they are the "productive" people and that by nature of being who they are deserve everything and fark everyone else. They decide they are special and so it is not only not wrong but it is completely righteous when they steal from everyone that isn't part of their self declared elite.
 
2012-08-14 09:53:49 PM  
So he goes from Rand to Aquinas, well at least he's consistent, both were authors whose work should have been a lot shorter and who should've realized they were, after twenty pages on a single point, just droning on.
 
2012-08-14 09:54:45 PM  
Hmmm... So many opinions about this book. I should read it. Let me go to Amazon, and...

"Mass Market Paperback: 1088 pages"

Fark your mother.
 
2012-08-14 10:00:44 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?

*reads first 50 posts*

Yep, meets the Fark formula.

Carry on.

Is this the thread where some Randian shows up and issues a blank dismissal of criticism by simply assuming none of the critics have ever read Rand (because if they did, they would know what a great intellectual and writer she was)?

Yep, carry on

Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."


A "great deal?" How many? Out of the first 50? Can you point some out? What I see is mostly, I HAVE read Rand, and she is BS"

Hell, just point out ONE

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?

Second post in thread.

He was asking if it was bad, he did not say it was or that he hated it or Rand

I guess you have to play ignorant to back up your lie


Oh, I thought that the part where he states he hasn't read it, and then asks if it's all derpy, implied that he thought it was derpy without having read it. I should get my glasses checked, I guess. Derrrrp.
 
2012-08-14 10:01:33 PM  
I read Atlas Shrugged in my 20's without knowing much about politics or objectivicsm and I enjoyed it. I guess I read it wrong because I thought the "leeches" were all the useless middlemen and bureaucrats like Dagny's brother. Applied today, I assumed it was the stupid paper-pushers on wall street who created nothing of value to which all companies seem to be slaves and self destruct in an effort to squeeze out an extra bucks for the shareholders.

Also read Fountainhead and thought that one was just about a guy who refused to compromise his ideals in favor of doing whatever was popular and I thought it was a good book and good message as well.

So in summation, they're good books if you're apparently a poor reader like me.
 
2012-08-14 10:02:40 PM  

Jaws_Victim: So what? "I used to be a Titan of Steel manufacturing, now I bake bread! Oh how much better life is now that I'm not forced to give my recipe for stronger lighter steel to the world at large for its many uses! WHAT ABOUT MY PROFIT MARGIN?"


riveraveblues.com
 
2012-08-14 10:03:36 PM  

DirkValentine: Silly Jesus: Without Fail: The following are true statements that can be easily verified.

Paul Ryan has stated repeatedly that Ayn Rand is an inspiration to him. He strongly admires her philosophy and credits her with influencing him more than all others... he recently required that his aides read her work. This admiration is well documented.

Ayn Rand stated repeatedly that William Edward Hickman was an inspiration to her. She strongly admired his philosophy and based a major character on him... because he kidnapped, murdered, eviscerated and dismembered a twelve year old girl for money. This admiration was well documented.

The Republican candidate for vice-president is the same Paul Ryan. Be afraid.
He was hand picked after careful research by Mitt Romney. Be very afraid.

Keep farkin that chicken.

In 1928, the writer Ayn Rand began planning a novel called The Little Street, whose hero, Danny Renahan, was to be based on "what Hickman suggested to [her]." The novel was never finished, but Rand wrote notes for it which were published after her death in the book Journals of Ayn Rand. Rand wanted the hero of her novel to be "A Hickman with a purpose. And without the degeneracy. It is more exact to say that the model is not Hickman, but what Hickman suggested to me."[3] Rand scholars Chris Matthew Sciabarra and Jennifer Burns both interpret Rand's interest in Hickman as a sign of her early admiration of the ideas of Friedrich Nietzsche, especially since she several times referred to Hickman as a "Superman" (in the Nietzschean sense).[4][5]

Link

You are right, on the most base level. The level that a 5 year old just learning to read would interpret her thoughts and actions vis-a-vis Hickman.

You have any criticisms of her actual work, or do you just enjoy asinine talking points?

She's a farking hypocrite. That's all you need to know, dimwit.


My feewings, you hurted them.
 
2012-08-14 10:04:53 PM  

Silly Jesus: Oh, I thought that the part where he states he hasn't read it, and then asks if it's all derpy, implied that he thought it was derpy without having read it. I should get my glasses checked, I guess. Derrrrp.


Yes, asks. He also asks if he had missed something, so you could just as easily say he implied it was worth reading.

You're not helping to disprove the image of Randians as idiots.
 
2012-08-14 10:05:54 PM  
Eh, he just realized what she actually said about conservatism:

Today's "conservatives" are futile, impotent and, culturally, dead. They have nothing to offer and can achieve nothing. They can only help to destroy intellectual standards, to disintegrate thought, to discredit capitalism, and to accelerate this country's uncontested collapse into despair and dictatorship.

Capitalism is not the system of the past; it is the system of the future-if mankind is to have a future. Those who wish to fight for it, must discard the title of "conservatives." "Conservatism" has always been a misleading name, inappropriate to America. Today, there is nothing left to "conserve": the established political philosophy, the intellectual orthodoxy, and the status quo are collectivism. Those who reject all the basic premises of collectivism are radicals in the proper sense of the word: "radical" means "fundamental." Today, the fighters for capitalism have to be, not bankrupt "conservatives," but new radicals, new intellectuals and, above all, new, dedicated moralists.


~Both from "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal".

/She's spinning in her grave because of the capitalists today, not jumping for joy in her coffin.
 
2012-08-14 10:08:47 PM  

Silly Jesus: This is the greater point that I was getting at up thread. Everyone thinks that they can just not read the book and form a reasoned opinion on her philosophy based on silly cartoons which would seem absurd to anyone who had actually read the damn thing.

Stupid cartoon is stupid.


"This is not a novel to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force." -- Dorothy Parker
 
2012-08-14 10:09:01 PM  
Criticisms of the philosophy aside, you do not interrupt the narrative of your story for 300 pages of manifesto.

Atlas Shrugged breaks one of the cardinals rules of fiction - "Show, don't tell"

And that's not even bringing up the terrible dialog and one dimensional characters.
 
2012-08-14 10:09:39 PM  

Thrag: Silly Jesus: Gimmick: The plot of Atlas Shrugged in 12 seconds.

HA! That's exactly like the moochers.

The moochers and looters are the people in Galt's Gulch. The start up capital for their society was gained by piracy of foreign aid. Sure, Ragnar and the others use the self serving justification that they are just stealing back the tax money that was stolen from them, but they are stealing aid that was paid for by the taxes of everyone in the country not only the people who move to the gulch. Ragnar even admits literally in the text of the book that he's stealing. He says he's a reverse robin hood who is stealing from the poor to give to teh rich. He adds the adjective "thieving" to "poor" to rationalize but all thieves rationalize their crimes. Their whole society is founded on stolen goods.

Galt and his followers have decided that they are the "productive" people and that by nature of being who they are deserve everything and fark everyone else. They decide they are special and so it is not only not wrong but it is completely righteous when they steal from everyone that isn't part of their self declared elite.


"What I actually am, Mr. Rearden, is a policeman. It is a policeman's duty to protect men from criminals-criminals being those who seize wealth by force. It is a policeman's duty to retrieve stolen property and return it to its owners. But when robbery becomes the purpose of the law, and the policeman's duty becomes, not the protection, but the plunder of property-then it is an outlaw who has to become a policeman." - Ragnar Danneskjöld
 
2012-08-14 10:11:59 PM  
So, Rachel Maddow just tore him apart by showing multiple videos of Ryan praising Ayn Rand and declaring that we were living in a Rand novel. It was amusing.
 
2012-08-14 10:12:30 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Oh, I thought that the part where he states he hasn't read it, and then asks if it's all derpy, implied that he thought it was derpy without having read it. I should get my glasses checked, I guess. Derrrrp.

Yes, asks. He also asks if he had missed something, so you could just as easily say he implied it was worth reading.

You're not helping to disprove the image of Randians as idiots.


Yes, anyone who puts any value in her philosophy is an absolute idiot. Your intellect is vastly superior. I tremble in the presence of your tumescent brain. You have truly put me in my place. I now bow to you my lord.
 
2012-08-14 10:19:17 PM  

Silly Jesus: Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Oh, I thought that the part where he states he hasn't read it, and then asks if it's all derpy, implied that he thought it was derpy without having read it. I should get my glasses checked, I guess. Derrrrp.

Yes, asks. He also asks if he had missed something, so you could just as easily say he implied it was worth reading.

You're not helping to disprove the image of Randians as idiots.

Yes, anyone who puts any value in her philosophy is an absolute idiot. Your intellect is vastly superior. I tremble in the presence of your tumescent brain. You have truly put me in my place. I now bow to you my lord.


You're pretty smug for a guy who doesn't know the difference between a declarative statement and a question.

By the way, I never expressed my opinion of Rand or her works in this thread, so your attacks on me are pretty childish.

You really need to stop making shiat up. It's more grown-up to debate people on the points they make, not the points you wish they had made.
 
2012-08-14 10:20:53 PM  

rtaylor92: I read Atlas Shrugged in my 20's without knowing much about politics or objectivicsm and I enjoyed it. I guess I read it wrong because I thought the "leeches" were all the useless middlemen and bureaucrats like Dagny's brother. Applied today, I assumed it was the stupid paper-pushers on wall street who created nothing of value to which all companies seem to be slaves and self destruct in an effort to squeeze out an extra bucks for the shareholders.

Also read Fountainhead and thought that one was just about a guy who refused to compromise his ideals in favor of doing whatever was popular and I thought it was a good book and good message as well.

So in summation, they're good books if you're apparently a poor reader like me.


Likewise, I thought Animal Farm was generalized political satire - pretty much all political systems like to claim that all are equal, and they all end up with some more equal than others. Or maybe I didn't know enough about the Soviet Union to catch the allusions (though the animals calling one another "Comrade" should have been enough of a clue).
 
2012-08-14 10:24:54 PM  

twat_waffle: Teufelaffe: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?

It's pretty derpy. Bad writing and the purest form of the "I've got mine, fark you" philosophy. If you're in the mood for an author with Objectivist leanings, try The Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind. Much better writing, and he manages to hide his "Individualism GOOOD, collectivism BAAAD" pretty well until the fourth or fifth book.

That was my experience. However, his villains and heroes are all caricatures. Even in the first book. Richard Cypher/Rahl was a paragon of virtue while Darken Rahl was so unbelievably evil just for the sake of being evil.

I think it was the fifth book (Soul of the Fire) where the Objectivism became apparent, and the next one (Faith of the Fallen) was Terry Goodkind's attempt to beat his readers over the head with Atlas Shrugged. Seeing that Goodkind was heavily influenced by Ayn Rand affected the quality of the entire series, even those books where it isn't apparent.

/read the entire series.
//sucked after Temple of the Winds
///got even worse after Chainfire
////barely finished the series
//unemployment gave me a lot of free time


Faith of the Fallen is where I gave up on the series because at that point Goodkind didn'd give a shait about his characters and wanted to bash you over the head with the "message".
 
2012-08-14 10:25:15 PM  
What really amazes me to no end is politicians disavowing their convictions in an age when every little statement is recorded, catalogued, and indexed to be regurgitated with a few mouse clicks.

I am really looking forward to the Obama attack adds where Mitt Romney introduces "the next president of the United States." That's for the lulz.
 
2012-08-14 10:26:15 PM  
Ayn Rand's best album was 2112. Everything after that sucked balls.
 
2012-08-14 10:26:46 PM  

Gaseous Anomaly: Likewise, I thought Animal Farm was generalized political satire


Animal Farm was actually a very specific critique of Stalinism. Orwell was a committed socialist and was very angry at what he saw as the betrayal of the original revolutionary ideals of the October Revolution - The Old Major represents Lenin, Napoleon represents Stalin, Snowball represents Trotsky etc.
 
2012-08-14 10:28:40 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Oh, I thought that the part where he states he hasn't read it, and then asks if it's all derpy, implied that he thought it was derpy without having read it. I should get my glasses checked, I guess. Derrrrp.

Yes, asks. He also asks if he had missed something, so you could just as easily say he implied it was worth reading.

You're not helping to disprove the image of Randians as idiots.

Yes, anyone who puts any value in her philosophy is an absolute idiot. Your intellect is vastly superior. I tremble in the presence of your tumescent brain. You have truly put me in my place. I now bow to you my lord.

You're pretty smug for a guy who doesn't know the difference between a declarative statement and a question.

By the way, I never expressed my opinion of Rand or her works in this thread, so your attacks on me are pretty childish.

You really need to stop making shiat up. It's more grown-up to debate people on the points they make, not the points you wish they had made.


Farkied.

Good day.
 
2012-08-14 10:29:29 PM  

Silly Jesus: Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Oh, I thought that the part where he states he hasn't read it, and then asks if it's all derpy, implied that he thought it was derpy without having read it. I should get my glasses checked, I guess. Derrrrp.

Yes, asks. He also asks if he had missed something, so you could just as easily say he implied it was worth reading.

You're not helping to disprove the image of Randians as idiots.

Yes, anyone who puts any value in her philosophy is an absolute idiot. Your intellect is vastly superior. I tremble in the presence of your tumescent brain. You have truly put me in my place. I now bow to you my lord.


I put value in her philosophy. I think we all do.

What we're questioning is why you're assigning a value to the right of the y-axis.
 
2012-08-14 10:29:43 PM  

Snapper Carr: Criticisms of the philosophy aside, you do not interrupt the narrative of your story for 300 pages of manifesto.

Atlas Shrugged breaks one of the cardinals rules of fiction - "Show, don't tell"

And that's not even bringing up the terrible dialog and one dimensional characters.


I guess that's why they're finishing the movies. The third one is just going to be a guy yelling into the camera for 2 hours and 20 minutes.

You can shoot that for next to nothing.
 
2012-08-14 10:30:42 PM  

Ghastly: I'd rather read a thousand farking elf songs by J.R.R. Tolkien than one chapter of Ayn Rand's crap.


"I'm going to sing a thousand verses of Ragtime..."
-Jerry Garcia

"No."
-Me

/apropos of nuttin'
//loves me some dead.
 
2012-08-14 10:34:08 PM  
People still read this ego-stroking dreck meant for white middle-class basement dwellers?
 
2012-08-14 10:40:00 PM  

Ghastly: That's because very few people can get through more than a few chapters of he crap before giving up. Not even the derpiest libertarians can get through an entire book of hers without skipping through a lot of the crap. In that regard she is very like Tolkien (nobody reads the farking elf songs).


Elbereth gilthoniel, mutherfarker.
 
2012-08-14 10:41:09 PM  

Silly Jesus: Thrag: Silly Jesus: Gimmick: The plot of Atlas Shrugged in 12 seconds.

HA! That's exactly like the moochers.

The moochers and looters are the people in Galt's Gulch. The start up capital for their society was gained by piracy of foreign aid. Sure, Ragnar and the others use the self serving justification that they are just stealing back the tax money that was stolen from them, but they are stealing aid that was paid for by the taxes of everyone in the country not only the people who move to the gulch. Ragnar even admits literally in the text of the book that he's stealing. He says he's a reverse robin hood who is stealing from the poor to give to teh rich. He adds the adjective "thieving" to "poor" to rationalize but all thieves rationalize their crimes. Their whole society is founded on stolen goods.

Galt and his followers have decided that they are the "productive" people and that by nature of being who they are deserve everything and fark everyone else. They decide they are special and so it is not only not wrong but it is completely righteous when they steal from everyone that isn't part of their self declared elite.

"What I actually am, Mr. Rearden, is a policeman. It is a policeman's duty to protect men from criminals-criminals being those who seize wealth by force. It is a policeman's duty to retrieve stolen property and return it to its owners. But when robbery becomes the purpose of the law, and the policeman's duty becomes, not the protection, but the plunder of property-then it is an outlaw who has to become a policeman." - Ragnar Danneskjöld


Yep, that's his bullshiat spin he uses to rationalize his crimes. Thanks for providing a quote to help prove my point. He's appointed himself to this role where he is superior and by nature of that superiority he is allowed to steal from others. Of course he doesn't return the "stolen property" to its owners, he keeps it all from himself and his cronies. He assumes everyone outside his gang doesn't deserve squat but he and his buddies in the gulch deserve everything.

Hey, if you've got the text handy can you also post this "...I'm the robin hood who steals from the poor..." bit too. Pretty much everything you can post about good old Ragnar reinforces the massive hypocrisy of Galt's merry band of looters.
 
2012-08-14 10:43:37 PM  

Pocket Ninja: I'm willing to bet quite a bit of money that if you selected, at random, any 10 individuals who have ever posted in a thread about Ayn Rand (either favorably or unfavorably), locked them in a room without any pre-warning or internet access, and then asked them each to provide a 2-minute summary of "Atlas Shrugged," no more than 2 or 3 would be able to do so.

The percentage will go up slightly higher for books by Orwell, but not by much.


Love your posts!
Haven't read either story in years.

/wife got me some.scotch for our anniversary

On topic...people who spend time worrying so much about politics, as we all do in this tab, need to just accept how incredible it is that we have come so far in so short of a time that we have the ability to debate the inane shiat of life with each other. From around the globe.
Right/Left labels dont mean shiat if you look and focus on the larger accomplishments. Why focus on petty shiat?
We are incredible.
For all of our differences, accept this, focus on this.

We are incredible.

We. Rock.
 
2012-08-14 10:44:19 PM  

YoungSwedishBlonde: People still read this ego-stroking dreck meant for white middle-class basement dwellers?


It got a re-surgience a few years ago. Mainly from Beckerheads and other Republicans that had to suddenly pretend to care about being concerned about the economy.
 
2012-08-14 10:45:32 PM  

Pocket Ninja: I'm willing to bet quite a bit of money that if you selected, at random, any 10 individuals who have ever posted in a thread about Ayn Rand (either favorably or unfavorably), locked them in a room without any pre-warning or internet access, and then asked them each to provide a 2-minute summary of "Atlas Shrugged," no more than 2 or 3 would be able to do so.


Okay, testing myself on this one without reading the rest of the thread since I've never read the whole thing, but just read key chapters and a chunk of the monologue:

Geniuses worldover start vanishing. Dagny Taggart, a brilliant industrialist who inherited her father's company starts looking for them, driven by the exciting mention of the name John Galt. John Galt has been cleverly luring brilliant people away from the normal humdrum and letting society collapse because without them, everything falls apart. High-speed rail is the industry of interest to Dagny, because... her company makes Steel, I think. She bonks her way through a variety of different men, ranging from Morality Lesson Mistake to Strangely Sociopathically Perfect, and eventually falls in love with John Galt in a plot that features a massive train crash full of Average People because they didn't have Dagny Wonderful Taggart saving them from themselves, John Galt eventually hijacks the radio station and spends four hundred pages give or take explaining to everyone how capitalism is the best thing ever and there's nothing creepy about wanting to fark a serial killer who guts twelve year olds.

I think at the very end, John Galt is executed or something, and society collapses into ruin with all the normal average people dying, and only the Experts and the Brilliants standing in their Galt's Gulch that's fine and wonderful forever.

How badly did I mess up?
 
2012-08-14 10:46:06 PM  

meat0918: Maybe he should read Dune and form his philosophy around that...

It'd be less derpy too.


I'd vote for the first politician that claimed to be a friend of Jamis.
 
2012-08-14 10:48:50 PM  

Pocket Ninja: I'm willing to bet quite a bit of money that if you selected, at random, any 10 individuals who have ever posted in a thread about Ayn Rand (either favorably or unfavorably), locked them in a room without any pre-warning or internet access, and then asked them each to provide a 2-minute summary of "Atlas Shrugged," no more than 2 or 3 would be able to do so.

The percentage will go up slightly higher for books by Orwell, but not by much.


I disagree about Orwell. 1984 and Animal Farm are both engaging novels with good characters and gripping plots. I expect that many people could tell you about Winston and Julia and the ministry of truth and Boxer and Napolean and Squealer.

I tried to read Atlas Shrugged but it reminded me of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance - gives you a basic plot and characters and then procedes to preach boring nonsense at you until you put it down half way through and ask yourself why you wasted the time.
 
2012-08-14 10:49:46 PM  

Jack Mackbell: When Upton Sinclaire wrote his thinly veiled polemic of how great communism was, he wrote about interesting characters that engaged us in their conflict. Rand couldn't even set her books in the real world.


Something something scientology...
 
2012-08-14 10:49:52 PM  
Oooh!! Ooooh! This is too good!

So, Paul Ryan says:"If somebody is going to try to paste a person's view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas," who believed that man needs divine help in the pursuit of knowledge. "Don't give me Ayn Rand,"

Then, if you do a google search for "Thomas Aquinis the poor," and do a little cross referencing, you can find this in under 3 minutes:

On the contrary, In cases of need all things are common property, so that there would seem to be no sin in taking another's property, for need has made it common.

I answer that, Things which are of human right cannot derogate from natural right or Divine right. Now according to the natural order established by Divine Providence, inferior things are ordained for the purpose of succoring man's needs by their means. Wherefore the division and appropriation of things which are based on human law, do not preclude the fact that man's needs have to be remedied by means of these very things. Hence whatever certain people have in superabundance is due, by natural law, to the purpose of succoring the poor. For this reason Ambrose says, and his words are embodied in the Decretals (Dist. xlvii, can. Sicut ii): "It is the hungry man's bread that you withhold, the naked man's cloak that you store away, the money that you bury in the earth is the price of the poor man's ransom and freedom."
-Summa Theologica, Question 66

Let that sink in for a moment.
 
2012-08-14 10:50:50 PM  
Now Lawrence O'Donnell is ripping him for his "Yes, I read her books and they influenced my views on philosophy but I didn't learn about objectivism until later and it's bad because it's atheist" interview.
 
2012-08-14 10:53:09 PM  

Silly Jesus: Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?

*reads first 50 posts*

Yep, meets the Fark formula.

Carry on.


You're right. I've never read a word by Ayn Rand.

I did, however, slog through The Turner Diaries, and I can honestly say that I did not become any better a person for it. So, I'll not bother with Rand.
 
2012-08-14 10:53:23 PM  
Thought experiment: imagine if Obama or Biden loved the works of a Russian atheist. What would Fox News say about the matter?
 
2012-08-14 10:54:58 PM  

Pocket Ninja: I'm willing to bet quite a bit of money that if you selected, at random, any 10 individuals who have ever posted in a thread about Ayn Rand (either favorably or unfavorably), locked them in a room without any pre-warning or internet access, and then asked them each to provide a 2-minute summary of "Atlas Shrugged," no more than 2 or 3 would be able to do so.

The percentage will go up slightly higher for books by Orwell, but not by much.

Atlas Shrugged

is a novel in which Ayn Rynd lays out her main ideals on egocentrism as the driving force of the world, using a semi-Heroic Journey pattern with dystopic settings and themes.

/Less than two minutes, but it's what the average writer needs to know.
 
2012-08-14 10:56:40 PM  

Silly Jesus: Thrag: Silly Jesus: Gimmick: The plot of Atlas Shrugged in 12 seconds.

HA! That's exactly like the moochers.

The moochers and looters are the people in Galt's Gulch. The start up capital for their society was gained by piracy of foreign aid. Sure, Ragnar and the others use the self serving justification that they are just stealing back the tax money that was stolen from them, but they are stealing aid that was paid for by the taxes of everyone in the country not only the people who move to the gulch. Ragnar even admits literally in the text of the book that he's stealing. He says he's a reverse robin hood who is stealing from the poor to give to teh rich. He adds the adjective "thieving" to "poor" to rationalize but all thieves rationalize their crimes. Their whole society is founded on stolen goods.

Galt and his followers have decided that they are the "productive" people and that by nature of being who they are deserve everything and fark everyone else. They decide they are special and so it is not only not wrong but it is completely righteous when they steal from everyone that isn't part of their self declared elite.

"What I actually am, Mr. Rearden, is a policeman. It is a policeman's duty to protect men from criminals-criminals being those who seize wealth by force. It is a policeman's duty to retrieve stolen property and return it to its owners. But when robbery becomes the purpose of the law, and the policeman's duty becomes, not the protection, but the plunder of property-then it is an outlaw who has to become a policeman." - Ragnar Danneskjöld


So your response to Thrag pointing out that Ragnar is a thief who is full of lazy rationalizations... is to quote Ragnar's lazy rationalizations. Brilliant.
 
2012-08-14 10:56:46 PM  

Martian_Astronomer: -Summa Theologica, Question 66


Okay, I screwed up the reference: It's actually Summa Theologica, II-II, Q 66.
 
2012-08-14 11:05:51 PM  
Paul Ryan is forced to renounce the atheistic ways of his fave writer Ayn Rand in order to appease the GOP God Squad?

Yeah, cos forced conversions usually go so well.

Pretty sure he remains a closet Randroid and will remain one until some point where he actually grows up.

Not holding my breath waiting, just saying.

Couple of things. First, Ayn Rand was a truly gawd-awful writer.

Unbelievable characters in unrealistic situation spouting overlong unnatural screeds in order to try and justify greed and deny the reality of interdependence.

A celebration of selfishness and sociopaths that became the basis for Levayan Satanism in the US.

I get that she was a Russian emigre who feared the US turning into the USSR but her fears like her philosophy were unfounded.

Anthem was barely readable dystopean fiction that was apparently ripped off of another writer and the rest of her work is pure drek.

Ayn Rand is to Literature as the Vogons are to Poetry.

That all noted, Pocket Ninja rawks. Seriously well done, PN.
 
2012-08-14 11:08:58 PM  
America is the only country that could take "wah! they took my daddies company so those communists are the debil" ethos and raise it to literature. It's a disgrace, and is very telling how damaged the US is even in what some consider intellectual circles.
 
2012-08-14 11:11:44 PM  
You know, it wouldn't be too hard to turn Atlas Shrugged into a communist novel.

You just make all the characters good honest laborers instead of titans of industry. The people keeping them down are the managers who steal their labor and ideas. Have overdone scenes where a worker thinks of a way to help the company save money and increase workplace safety. He tells his manager who tells the guy to work in his spare time on a proposal and if he does he'll give him a bonus. The guy slaves away in all his spare time to produce details plans, research, projections and everything. When the work is finished the manger takes credit, screws him on the bonus, and then fires the worker to cover his tracks when he complains. The manager also alters the plan in such a way that it squeezes out a few extra dimes by eliminating the safety part and lots of workers get maimed in a horrible accident. shiat like this keep happening to the righteous main characters. Then some mysterious figure starts going to all the good honest workers and telling them about this communist paradise where they get the full rewards of their hard work. While all this is going on there's this one guy who is going around the country knocking over banks to fund the communist utopia. He justifies himself by regarding himself as a Robin Hood (an actual one, not a reverse one). In the end there can be a big Marxist speech about how the people who work and sweat to make the world work are so great and everyone else just sucks, and then of course all the middle managers and all the robber barons burn because society fails without the good honest workers, who live on in their communist utopia without the burden of the capitalists.

Ta-Da! And in this version, the people in the new utopia actually know how to farm so they don't all die after a few hard winters.
 
2012-08-14 11:13:24 PM  

Triumph: FTA:"I reject her philosophy," Ryan says firmly. "It's an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a person's view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas,"

God help us.


I think you've got it, at least, as much as you ever will!
 
2012-08-14 11:13:51 PM  

PsiChick: Pocket Ninja: I'm willing to bet quite a bit of money that if you selected, at random, any 10 individuals who have ever posted in a thread about Ayn Rand (either favorably or unfavorably), locked them in a room without any pre-warning or internet access, and then asked them each to provide a 2-minute summary of "Atlas Shrugged," no more than 2 or 3 would be able to do so.

The percentage will go up slightly higher for books by Orwell, but not by much.

Atlas Shrugged is a novel in which Ayn Rynd lays out her main ideals on egocentrism as the driving force of the world, using a semi-Heroic Journey pattern with dystopic settings and themes.

/Less than two minutes, but it's what the average writer needs to know.


The funny thing is that egocentrism (at least as far as self-interest is concerned) *IS* the driving force of the world. The problem she runs into is denying that egocentrism also accounts for the Free Rider Effect (e.g. "people will dump off shiatty externalities onto others and the best outcome to society is necessarily ruined if said people aren't FORCED to comply with the appropriate remedies"... i.e. yes, Ayn Rand, you stupid, nasty coont, there *are* things in this world that can't be solved by farking freewheeling it).

So anyhow, it's even funnier that some idiots still can't identify that painfully-simple side of the human nature coin.

Funnier yet is that the dead cumdumpster's swing-and-a-miss re: this most rudimentary aspect of our species' behavior lives on, only to farking ruin everything for nearly everyone on the planet.

/for that matter, they also think that everything can be assigned property rights
//jesus farking christ, you stupid farkholes, how the fark does that work on, say, AIR
///god i farking hate free market ideologues
 
2012-08-14 11:16:47 PM  

gameshowhost: /for that matter, they also think that everything can be assigned property rights
//jesus farking christ, you stupid farkholes, how the fark does that work on, say, AIR


He figured it out:
www.girlontheright.com
 
2012-08-14 11:19:15 PM  

Phil Moskowitz: America is the only country that could take "wah! they took my daddies company so those communists are the debil" ethos and raise it to literature. It's a disgrace, and is very telling how damaged the US is even in what some consider intellectual circles.


History is littered with countries that persecuted people and destroyed works for being against the government imposed(or even socially imposed) moral standards. The fact that some Russian chick can immigrate here and write something that would have gotten her gulagged in Russia is a testament to the openness of this nation. People like you are the disgrace. Maybe you don't like the story, maybe you don't like the author, maybe you don't like the philosophy, but that isn't a problem compared to damning America because it allowed someone to write a goddamn motherfarking book you farking tool.
 
2012-08-14 11:19:48 PM  

Felgraf: RoyFokker'sGhost: timujin: Neither Rand, nor any Objectivist I've met, truly understood/understand* one of the core tenets of their philosophy, rational self-interest.

.
.
.
*how exactly are you supposed to switch between tenses when talking about both the living and the dead?


There's only one person I can think of that's come close to being a true Objectivist...

[cdn.ifanboy.com image 850x478]

Seriously, Ditko designed The Question and an earlier character. Mr. A (named after the logical and Objectivist principal of 'A is A'), on the ideas of Objectivism. Regardless of environment or 'justifications', a criminal is still a criminal and must be punished. Those who try to rationalize their crimes are denying the personal responsibility of the choice they made; the Question and Mr. A remind the criminals of this fact.

But aren't they themselves criminals, for being vigilantes?

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: But without it, we never would have gotten Bioshock, so, in the end, mostly worth it.

Yes you would have. It was called System Shock 2. It was also better.
/No seriously, Bioshock is System Shock 2 Underwater and Watered Down.


System Shock 2 is System Shock with Alien Parasites and Watered Down.

/And Ryan and Rand both suck.
 
2012-08-14 11:22:42 PM  
Ryan's speech outlined his fascination with Rand - whose novels preach personal accountability and a rejection of altruism

Wasn't Rand pretty much anti-religion and pro-abortion as well? I've always wondered how these right-to-lifers worship Rand without their heads asploding.
 
2012-08-14 11:31:55 PM  

Pincy: Ryan's speech outlined his fascination with Rand - whose novels preach personal accountability and a rejection of altruism

Wasn't Rand pretty much anti-religion and pro-abortion as well? I've always wondered how these right-to-lifers worship Rand without their heads asploding.


And JFK was pro-life, yet he's still revered by northeastern Democratic elite. That was ages ago. Who cares?
 
2012-08-14 11:32:15 PM  
could it be rand was foretelling the internet, with galt luring people from the real world to the virtual in search of reason?
 
2012-08-14 11:45:38 PM  

21-7-b: could it be rand was foretelling the internet, with galt luring people from the real world to the virtual in search of reason?


lol
 
2012-08-14 11:45:42 PM  

Pincy: Ryan's speech outlined his fascination with Rand - whose novels preach personal accountability and a rejection of altruism

Wasn't Rand pretty much anti-religion and pro-abortion as well? I've always wondered how these right-to-lifers worship Rand without their heads asploding.


Same way they worship the Bible while ignoring pretty much everything Jesus said, particularly about aiding the poor.
 
2012-08-14 11:49:29 PM  

Snapper Carr: Criticisms of the philosophy aside, you do not interrupt the narrative of your story for 300 pages of manifesto.

Atlas Shrugged breaks one of the cardinals rules of fiction - "Show, don't tell"

And that's not even bringing up the terrible dialog and one dimensional characters.


Reminds me of Native Son. Read that in my senior year AP English class in high school. Sooooo much communist demagoguing.
 
2012-08-14 11:52:19 PM  
http://www.spudworks.com/article/66/2/

The Abridged Atlas Shrugged
02.19.2001

"It sure is hard to find good men now-a-days. I wonder what the hell is going on," Dagny smirked to herself as she entered the towering monolith to capitalism that was the headquarters of Taggart Transcontinental. "There are so few men like Hank Rearden, the man who single handedly invented a new greenish tint metal that is far stronger than steel," she said bursting in on her brother. "There are too many like you, Jim," she mocked.

"Well, if that's the case, you so-not-a-woman-and-I-can't-believe-a-woman-wrote-this, why don't you go redeem yourself by sleeping with him. By being his servile little mistress you'll serve the cause of capitalism far better than you have," Jim mocked.

Dagny smirked in her mocking way. Yes, she thought, she had tried that with another man, and it seemed so right until he, gasp, went to the other side. He became a slacker. Hank. Hank, Hank, Hank. Don't you know you're all I dream about though I don't actually do anything about it until page five-hundred? "I know what I want Jim, but what do you want?"

"Who is John Galt?"

"Don't say that! It's people asking that question that leads me to believe something sinister is happening in society. I think he's the destroyer." She mocked herself silently inside. How could a grown woman think such a thing? Oh, who was she kidding? She knew that women weren't much better than children anyway. Everyone knew that. It was a fluke she had any position in the railroad at all.

"It is I, Francisco d'Anconia, of the oldest most wealthy copper fortune this side of the Atlantic, and don't I want you to know that I'm pissing it all away for a grand reason that I won't tell you!" His perfect physique burst through the door in a mocking manner few could achieve but which he achieved perfectly. He had seen someone do the act before and fail and, after a single try at six months old, he was better at mockingly bursting through doors than anyone on the planet.

"Slacker," Dagny screamed with indignation and a pointed finger.

"Yes Dagny, you silly silly woman, I may seem a slacker to you, but after ten pages of explanation you will know that it is you who slack and it is I who serve a higher cause which will not be explained for another seven hundred pages. Remember, I am a d'Anconia which goes without saying that I know what I am doing," he mocked. He was so perfect at mocking. No man mocked like Francisco. How she wanted to be back in his arms. Were it not for... no! He was a slacker! The very embodiment of slack yet... yet he slacked with purpose. Even that was perfect. No man slacked like Francisco.

"What in capitalism's name is going on here," Hank yelled with bursting anger from the bottom of his manly lungs as he lunged through the door. It wasn't as perfect as Francisco's mockery, no man could touch that, but it was with the kind of power only a capitalist could muster. Dagny fluttered with lust.

"What the hell are you all doing in my office," Jim demanded weekly, the only way a socialist could demand.

"Hank, we must talk," Francisco said in a softly mocking way. Hank's heart fluttered with love he suddenly felt for the man. Even if he was a slacker, could my heart be wrong, Hank asked himself. He reached for Francisco's hand, wanting to hold him close.

"No," Dagny screamed with indignation and a pointed finger. "Please, I want him to take me and show me what a weak little girl I really am! That's what all women want!" Hank looked torn.

"Hey everybody," said a quiet voice from behind Hank. Hank took up most of the doorway with his manly capitalistic bulk. The crowd parted like the sea and a well groomed handsome man with a shock of boyish blond hair stood at the foot of it.

"John, you're not supposed to show up for eight-hundred more pages," Francisco said mockingly.

"Well, I got bored with the wait and figured what the hell. So... who wants to know what this is all about?" John smiled and every man's heart in the room melted. Dagny felt the overwhelming urge to become his servant and to clean up after him. That's what all women wanted after all, she figured.

"I do," Rearden capitalisticly demanded.

"Well, I couldn't deal with any government intervention in business and think that any kind of socialist tendency is kind of a bad idea, so me and my buddies, who all just happen to be the rich, powerful, and industrial, went on strike to bring the world to its knees." John said as he tossed back his blond hair with a light twitch of his head.

"For what purpose," Jim nearly cried. Socialists are such babies, thought John mockingly.

"Well, I don't like having to pay taxes or think about anything other than business. And, because I'm such an inexplicably charismatic guy, I figured I'd just get my industrialist buddies to back me," John said with a hint of mockery.

"Look," Jim sobbed. "The world is crumbling without you guys!"

"Well, once it's toast, we'll get to work but until then, who's up for some skiing in Colorado?"
 
2012-08-14 11:53:44 PM  

Thrag: You know, it wouldn't be too hard to turn Atlas Shrugged into a communist novel.


I have said this over and over. Atlas Shrugged is a novel about a mysterious revolutionary who gradually draws the oppressed classes together to engage in collective direct action culminating in a huge wildcat strike that brings down the oppressive government. It is badly-written utopian socialist literature run through a quick search and replace.
 
2012-08-14 11:54:02 PM  

Fart_Machine: twat_waffle: Teufelaffe: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?

It's pretty derpy. Bad writing and the purest form of the "I've got mine, fark you" philosophy. If you're in the mood for an author with Objectivist leanings, try The Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind. Much better writing, and he manages to hide his "Individualism GOOOD, collectivism BAAAD" pretty well until the fourth or fifth book.

That was my experience. However, his villains and heroes are all caricatures. Even in the first book. Richard Cypher/Rahl was a paragon of virtue while Darken Rahl was so unbelievably evil just for the sake of being evil.

I think it was the fifth book (Soul of the Fire) where the Objectivism became apparent, and the next one (Faith of the Fallen) was Terry Goodkind's attempt to beat his readers over the head with Atlas Shrugged. Seeing that Goodkind was heavily influenced by Ayn Rand affected the quality of the entire series, even those books where it isn't apparent.

/read the entire series.
//sucked after Temple of the Winds
///got even worse after Chainfire
////barely finished the series
//unemployment gave me a lot of free time

Faith of the Fallen is where I gave up on the series because at that point Goodkind didn'd give a shait about his characters and wanted to bash you over the head with the "message".


I got the same vibe, but I had already made an investment and I wanted to see how he would end the series.
 
2012-08-14 11:54:28 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?


The only reason I knew of Rand was because of the virgin-titillating rape scene in "The Fountainhead." All my interest in her vanished when I discovered real erotica.
 
2012-08-15 12:00:03 AM  
alternatively

http://www.mopie.com/blog/2006/01/atlas-shrugged-by-ayn-rand.html

Saturday, January 07, 2006
Atlas Shrugged (by Ayn Rand)
ATLAS SHRUGGED: THE ABRIDGED VERSION (with spoilers)

AYN RAND
Hello, I'm Ayn Rand. I wrote a novel based on my Objectivist philosophy called The Fountainhead, but I don't think 700 pages was quite enough to get my point across, so I will write the exact same novel, only it will take 1100 pages this time.

READERS
Hey, great.

HEROINE
I'm Dagny Taggart. I am a railroad tycoon, woman-in-a-man's-world, stunningly beautiful heroine. I am the only person capable of running this railroad. I am the only woman in the universe worth a damn. I am also the only woman in the universe with a real job. I am basically the only woman in this novel.

LOVE INTEREST #1
I have worshiped you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, from afar for my whole life.

HEROINE
That's nice.

LOVE INTEREST #2
I have worshiped you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, naked on the forest floor. Yet I will nobly step aside in the name of noble idealism, despite the fact that I love you and want you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, desperately.

HEROINE
Okay.

LOVE INTEREST #3
I worship you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn. Let us have creepy rape fantasy sex now. I will not ask permission to do all these kinky things to you, but luckily you want to be forced into all the kinky things, you dirty biatch.

HEROINE
This is clearly true love! Stick it in me.

ALL
Who is John Galt?

AYN RAND
I am not telling. Instead, please listen to someone pontificate about my Objectivist philosophy for a while.

SOMEONE
[Pontificates]

VILLAINS
There are many of us, but we are all exactly the same. We are caricatures of evil socialists and embodiments of pure evil. Let us create a perfect socialist world order ruled by the inept! We all suck! Socialism sucks! Ha ha!

HEROES
We are all exactly the same. We are noble and perfect and have very angular and insolent faces. We can read each other's minds and the minds of everyone else in this novel, leaving less room for misunderstanding and more room for pontificating. And we are all in love with Dagny Taggart, the only woman in the universe worth a damn.

ALL
Who is John Galt?

VILLAIN
[Threatens hero.]

HERO
[Flips coin]
If it's heads, I will gaze apathetically. If it's tails, I will laugh heartily.

VILLAIN
Although these are the only two things any of you heroes have done for the past 800 pages, I am shocked at this response! How could you! How dare you!?!

HERO
I will now pontificate about Ayn Rand's philosophy. It has been at least 50 pages since you've heard it.

AYN RAND
It is so convenient that all of my heroes are in perfect agreement about my philosophy so that their pontificating is so interchangeable.

ALL
Who is John Galt?

JOHN GALT
Hello. In this, the culmination of all the pontificating, I will explain Ayn Rand's philosophy for a full 57 pages. No, I am not kidding. This one monologue will last for 57 pages. Oh and also, I love Dagny.

DAGNY
I love you too. Man, this is really going to suck for Love Interest #3.

LOVE INTEREST #3
Despite my passionate love for you and enjoyment of our rape sex, and the fact that there is no other woman on earth worth a damn, and the fact that I sacrificed my life's passion on your behalf, and that I spent my entire fortune to get a divorce to be with you, I will now nobly step aside in the name of noble idealism.

DAGNY
Great! I will miss our creepy rape sex. Farewell.

LOVE INTEREST #3
Bye.

READER
Wait, what?

ATLAS
[Shrugs]

THE END
 
2012-08-15 12:06:41 AM  
this offers another take, and suggests adding some thomas aquinas. who knew?

http://ktcatspost.blogspot.co.uk/2008/11/review-of-atlas-shrugged.htm l

Sunday, November 02, 2008
A Review of Atlas Shrugged

I just finished listening to the unabridged Atlas Shrugged on 42 (!) CDs. I'll admit I abridged the thing myself as portions of it were rather tiresome, but I would bet that I heard about 90% of the book.

Premise: If you haven't read the book, the general theme is that as the government increases the tax and regulatory burden on the productive to serve the needy, more and more productive people opt out of society (going John Galt in modern parlance). They recognize that they are becoming beasts of burden for everyone else and they simply quit and disappear from society. The end result is catastrophic.

Summary: For me, the book is a classic. The themes within it are timeless and as I read it, I saw applications of it throughout my life. At work, at home, in the elections, the concepts of Atlas Shrugged are everywhere. I consider myself pretty well-read, but this book revolutionized the way I see many things. Despite its immense size, I highly recommend it.

Random Thoughts

In the book, none of the main characters have children. This allows them to behave like children. Going full on John Galt and opting out of society is an act of petulant childishness that is possible only if you have no tie to the future. Children tie you to the future and force you to remain in society and try to make it as good as it can be. While I see the themes of this book being played out with greater and greater strength in the US, there is not much of a chance I would go John Galt in that way.

Of course, Tuesday may change all that. Who knows.

The conflict in the book is cultural, not personal. Society is divided into producers and looters. The popular culture within the book and within America today takes from the producers and gives to the looters. As the plot progresses, more and more is taken from the producers to give more and more to the looters. The majority of Americans, both in the book and in real life, speak in terms of "need" as the primary motivation for action and disdain those who produce.

Example: Millions of Americans are without health insurance. They need it. We must take from the producers and give to the needy that they may have health insurance. At no time is the concept of "What have they done to earn it?" ever raised.

In the book, producers can understand the looters' mentality, but not the other way around. Looters see producers as evil and greedy. This is like the popular view of Exxon in real life. Looters do not understand that producers are the key to civilization until enough of them drop out and society begins to fall apart. Even then, they cling to the concepts of rewarding need and punishing greed as they increase the load on the ever-dwindling set of producers.

Example: California today.

Discouraged by high costs and strict regulations, just under 60 percent of California business leaders interviewed for a new study said they have policies to restrict job growth in the state or move jobs to other locations in the United States....

The consulting firm [Bain] interviewed chief executives or senior managers of about 50 small, medium and large companies with extensive operations in the state.

About 40 percent said their companies have an explicit policy to move jobs elsewhere in the United States, with Texas cited as the most frequent destination. Not counting those companies that must stay in California, such as retailers or health care providers, the proportion of businesses that said their policy is to move jobs rose to 55 percent.

Hmmm. I guess there's more than one way to go John Galt. I have to admit, I have considered moving to another state when I retire...

Like I said before, the problem in the book is cultural. Even when confronted with the concrete results of their actions, the looters can't see the causes. As society crumbles they continue to speak in terms of what they need. The politicians continue to speak in terms of the government developing new plans to deal with one crisis after another when, in fact, the crises were created by government plans in the first place.

Example: The recent financial catastrophe was generated by the quasi-governmental mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac deciding to change their strict loan purchase policies and begin buying subprime loans. People needed to be able to buy houses and it was unreasonable to expect them to earn the houses. Now that mortgage defaults are skyrocketing, the government is working on mortgage bailout plans for needy borrowers who can't afford the homes they bought.

In the end, it is the looters' philosophy that fails. The collapse of society is a result of the doomed culture of consumption over production. All kinds of policies and government arrangements are tried, but nothing stops the inexorable decline of civilization because their mindset is centered around need.

If you go back and watch the debates, particularly the Democratic primary debates, I think you'll see this exact mindset on display.

In the end, the keys to success - hard work, thrift, skills and education, personal responsibility and so forth - allow the producers to escape the cataclysm. I won't spoil the book and reveal how. Here in the real world, a mix of Dave Ramsey, St. Thomas Aquinas and a solid set of valuable skills allow you to go John Galt in a variety of ways while the looters among us spiral downwards.

More on that in later posts.

Posted by K T Cat
 
2012-08-15 12:11:09 AM  
"I reject her philosophy," Ryan says firmly. "It's an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a person's view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas," who believed that man needs divine help in the pursuit of knowledge. "Don't give me Ayn Rand," he says.

Wait, his problem with Rand is the stuff that she got more or less right from an American perspective? The not relying on gods and dogma in politics, the social contract being in nature not unlike a business contract, women being allowed to privately purchase the medical care they feel they need, this is your problem?

This is like saying you used to worship Hitler, but got over it when you realized that he was into things you hate, like national Highways, fuel-efficient cars, and breathing oxygen. What the hell, man?

Snapper Carr: Criticisms of the philosophy aside, you do not interrupt the narrative of your story for 300 pages of manifesto.

Atlas Shrugged breaks one of the cardinals rules of fiction - "Show, don't tell"

And that's not even bringing up the terrible dialog and one dimensional characters.


Atlas Shrugged was published in the 1950s, the literary tradition it inherited was more "golden age of science fiction" than the writers-workshop "show, don't tell" stuff of the '90s you're referring to. It was not considered necessary at the time to try to stuff your agenda into character dialogue or try to conceal it, if you had something to say on the order of there being a moral to the story you just stuck it right in there, or had a character outright monologue it to the audience, and that was fine.

This is because the literary tradition in question was informed by theater and radio, which were somewhat limited in special effects, and a much greater attention span and focus was expected from the audience. '90s writing and the "show, don't tell" rule are informed by an entertainment culture based on movies/TV stuffed with special effects and 15-second ad spots.

What I'm saying here is that there wasn't actually anything wrong with her writing at the time, literary rules of thumb like the one you're quoting go in and out of style all the time, and the specific one you're referencing wasn't in yet when the book you're talking about came out. You're sort of complaining that someone isn't wearing a sun-dress during a New York winter, here.

//Not that either of her door-stoppers were particularly great, but there's nothing terribly bad about them. Nothing wrong with L. Ron Hubbard's pulp SciFi, either, like Mz. Rand his work takes a lot of flak it hasn't earned because of politics.

//Albeit both the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are science fiction, with all the fundamental alterations to the basic workings of society that implies. So there is something wrong with taking them entirely seriously. I take Randians citing the books about as seriously as I would someone basing their life on Lord of the Rings or the Green Lantern comics.
 
2012-08-15 12:11:17 AM  
Wow. Silly Jesus is amazing.

Hat's off for doing yoeman's work defending Rand and Objectivism.

Now imagine if you could Marshall all that knowledge and energy toward the defense of a worthwhile philosophy!

/I kid. You clearly think highly of it and you have kept your cool after hours of this.
 
2012-08-15 12:12:12 AM  

21-7-b: this offers another take, and suggests adding some thomas aquinas. who knew?

http://ktcatspost.blogspot.co.uk/2008/11/review-of-atlas-shrugged.htm l

Sunday, November 02, 2008
A Review of Atlas Shrugged

lotsofdogs.jpg


That is pretty hilarious. It would be a huge blow to society if KT Cat stopped blessing us with her (his? its?) bounty of sucky blog.
 
2012-08-15 12:15:46 AM  

BojanglesPaladin: Wow. Silly Jesus is amazing.

Hat's off for doing yoeman's work defending Rand and Objectivism.

Now imagine if you could Marshall all that knowledge and energy toward the defense of a worthwhile philosophy!

/I kid. You clearly think highly of it and you have kept your cool after hours of this.


I know, it's sort of like watching someone defend "Charles in Charge" for hours for no good reason. Ayn Rand sucks and yes I've read her bullshiat. Spending that much time defending even one little bit of her "work" shows that you really aren't very smart and probably need a hobby.
 
2012-08-15 12:17:05 AM  
wikipedia

Rand acknowledged Aristotle as her greatest influence[113] and remarked that in the history of philosophy she could only recommend "three A's"-Aristotle, Aquinas, and Ayn Rand
 
2012-08-15 12:20:50 AM  
"I reject her philosophy," Ryan says firmly. "It's an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a person's view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas," who believed that man needs divine help in the pursuit of knowledge. "Don't give me Ayn Rand," he says.

www.nydailynews.com
 
2012-08-15 12:26:49 AM  

Confabulat: BojanglesPaladin: Wow. Silly Jesus is amazing.

Hat's off for doing yoeman's work defending Rand and Objectivism.

Now imagine if you could Marshall all that knowledge and energy toward the defense of a worthwhile philosophy!

/I kid. You clearly think highly of it and you have kept your cool after hours of this.

I know, it's sort of like watching someone defend "Charles in Charge" for hours for no good reason. Ayn Rand sucks and yes I've read her bullshiat. Spending that much time defending even one little bit of her "work" shows that you really aren't very smart and probably need a hobby.


I don't know. There's a few decent ideas in the pile of worthless or terrible ideas.

But yeah, I don't know if I would have stayed in Fark and kept swinging to defend my OWN philosophy.
 
2012-08-15 12:37:49 AM  

Pincy: Wasn't Rand pretty much anti-religion and pro-abortion as well? I've always wondered how these right-to-lifers worship Rand without their heads asploding.


Ryan's argument now is that Rand influenced his thinking on economics but that he rejects objectivism.
 
2012-08-15 12:39:39 AM  
Ayn Rand had great tits.
 
2012-08-15 12:44:27 AM  

SockMonkeyHolocaust: Ayn Rand had great tits.


Ewwwww
 
2012-08-15 12:46:23 AM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?


It's Clarence Thomas's favorite book. He makes all of his clerks read it.
 
2012-08-15 12:47:13 AM  
most people aren't going to read the works, or even abridged versions, but you can see how they can clearly be spliced together under interpretation to provide a coherent message that encourages people to focus on traditional values given as mentioned above. that's a pretty good message and, frankly, will provide a far more solid rhetorical and political foundation than mere slogans. things like inter-generational contract underpin society, but have been eroded, probably with increasing rapidity due to technological advancement. happiness comes from the balance of security and freedom and that requires an underpinning of certainty within society
 
2012-08-15 12:48:21 AM  

SockMonkeyHolocaust: Ayn Rand had great tits.


She liked birds?


i.telegraph.co.uk
 
2012-08-15 12:50:55 AM  

timujin: Neither Rand, nor any Objectivist I've met, truly understood/understand* one of the core tenets of their philosophy, rational self-interest.


Funny thing about rational self interest. You can use it to do things that are/were abhorrent to Ayn Rand, like be a moocher or a looter.
 
2012-08-15 12:53:59 AM  

Bucky Katt: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?

It's Clarence Thomas's favorite book. He makes all of his clerks read it.


History's greatest monster.
 
2012-08-15 01:03:18 AM  

HellRaisingHoosier: Lando Lincoln: Atlas Shrugged is about this superhuman business guy named John Galt who was super awesome at everything he did and one day he just checked out of society because he was tired of all of the mindless bureaucratic red-tape regulations and union bullshiat that surrounds running a business in a modern society like ours. And people freaked out because without John Galt around, everything was going to shiat. And then other really important business tycoons did the same thing. And then all of the union workers and politicians were really sad and miserable and jobless, because the super awesome job creators weren't around to lead them to prosperity and super awesome living. So the moral of the story is, keep sucking rich guy dick or they'll fark you in the ass.


Is this legitimately what the book is about?


Well, John Galt wasn't a CEO, he was just an employee and no one gave a shiat about him except when he claimed to invent some energy machine or something. But the government started cracking down on competition or something. And a CEO of a steel company invented some new metal. And the CEO of a train company wanted to use the metal or something. But the government wouldn't let them or something. And the economy got worse or something. And so the government tried to fix it and farked things up worse or something, starting a chain reaction of government fix and worse economy or something. And so a bunch of rich owners got fed up and escaped society and went to live with John Galt and his energy machine or something. Read the book a long time ago, just to say I read it and know what I was talking about if people brought it up, but man it was not easy to get through. It's not well written and lectures you and says the same shiat over and over again for 1000 pages.
 
2012-08-15 01:04:48 AM  

21-7-b: Example: Millions of Americans are without health insurance. They need it. We must take from the producers and give to the needy that they may have health insurance. At no time is the concept of "What have they done to earn it?" ever raised.


They have life. And isn't that what pro-life is supposed to be about? Protecting life for life's sake?

And of course we already give medical care to the needy in the form of ER care they can't afford which is much more expensive for the producers than giving the needy health insurance.
 
2012-08-15 01:05:00 AM  

BojanglesPaladin: But way too much rape, threats of rape, thoughts of rape, rape as plot device, rape as background filler, rape as character builder, rape as punishment, and then domination and torture as a path to self actualization and empowerment (see the Mord-Sith).


You said "rape" seven times.


Silly Jesus: Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: Silly Jesus: Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."

I didn't have to read Mein Kampf, the Turner Diaries, or the Unibomber Manifesto either.

I read the first two so that I could discuss them intelligently.


Uh huh. And you read Playboy just for the articles.
 
2012-08-15 01:07:39 AM  

Gimmick: The plot of Atlas Shrugged in 12 seconds.


http://www.spudworks.com/article/66/2/
 
2012-08-15 01:12:53 AM  

jigger: Well, John Galt wasn't a CEO, he was just an employee and no one gave a shiat about him except when he claimed to invent some energy machine or something.


Howard Roark was just a new architect starting out in his field, but his architecture was so brilliant and amazing that he refused to listen to the demands of his clients or the input of his co-workers and superiors and built what he wanted anyway. Instead of being drummed out of the field, (oh he had a few rough days at first when people didn't always recognize his superiority to them), he because the greatest architect ever.

This is beyond sci-fi and just purely in the realm of fantasy. Yet Randians think this is how life is supposed to work. It's perfect for self-centered immature teenage boys convinced of their own superiority of everyone around them. That's sort of the defining characteristic of a Randian -- I'm better than everyone else, and it's the world's fault they don't recognize it, not mine. Most people grow out of that phase. Randians cling to it like a life preserver.
 
2012-08-15 01:19:29 AM  
Wow, the whole Fark Dependent brigade continues to pee their panties when it comes to Rand. Strange.

Well, not that strange, I guess. She loathed authoritarian collectivists, and that's you.
 
2012-08-15 01:22:37 AM  

Thrag: You know, it wouldn't be too hard to turn Atlas Shrugged into a communist novel.


Rand saw the world through communist eyes, thought America was the reverse direct opposite of communism, and went with it.
 
2012-08-15 01:25:46 AM  

notShryke: Wow, the whole Fark Dependent brigade continues to pee their panties when it comes to Rand. Strange.

Well, not that strange, I guess. She loathed authoritarian collectivists, and that's you.


Funny coming from a person who just called a bunch of individuals on the internet posting anonymously a "collective."

Sounds pretty Randian to me. You're better than us, am I right?
 
2012-08-15 01:27:35 AM  
It takes a real individual to disagree with other people posting on the internet, you know. A rugged individualist. Someone against the grain. A true libertarian hero. Like you.
 
2012-08-15 01:29:11 AM  
"the rejection of altruism."

Pretty much sums-up all conservative christians.

Jesus would be so proud.
 
2012-08-15 01:32:26 AM  

notShryke: Wow, the whole Fark Dependent brigade continues to pee their panties when it comes to Rand. Strange.

Well, not that strange, I guess. She loathed authoritarian collectivists, and that's you.


Oh and by the way, it was Paul Ryan that peed his pants, not us. We're just mocking him for being too scared to admit he worships her now that he's running for national office and he knows she's embarrassing to most mature adults and conservative Christians alike.
 
2012-08-15 01:37:34 AM  

Confabulat: jigger: Well, John Galt wasn't a CEO, he was just an employee and no one gave a shiat about him except when he claimed to invent some energy machine or something.

Howard Roark was just a new architect starting out in his field, but his architecture was so brilliant and amazing that he refused to listen to the demands of his clients or the input of his co-workers and superiors and built what he wanted anyway. Instead of being drummed out of the field, (oh he had a few rough days at first when people didn't always recognize his superiority to them), he because the greatest architect ever.

This is beyond sci-fi and just purely in the realm of fantasy. Yet Randians think this is how life is supposed to work. It's perfect for self-centered immature teenage boys convinced of their own superiority of everyone around them. That's sort of the defining characteristic of a Randian -- I'm better than everyone else, and it's the world's fault they don't recognize it, not mine. Most people grow out of that phase. Randians cling to it like a life preserver.


I only saw the movie version of the Fountainhead. I still think it's funny that Roark got away with bombing the housing complex because the jury was won over by his lecture about individualism or whatever. He bombed farking buildings. Someone else's buildings, not his buildings, just ones he partly designed. But you know, the jury understands, because they realize he's a misunderstood artist.
 
2012-08-15 01:46:08 AM  

jigger: I only saw the movie version of the Fountainhead. I still think it's funny that Roark got away with bombing the housing complex because the jury was won over by his lecture about individualism or whatever. He bombed farking buildings. Someone else's buildings, not his buildings, just ones he partly designed. But you know, the jury understands, because they realize he's a misunderstood artist.


I totally forgot about all that. I think by the time I got to that point in the novel my brain had grown numb and refused to commit any more to memory. I do remember he got some successful rape out of the whole thing though, and isn't that any successful man's true measure of victory? (according to Ayn Rand).
 
2012-08-15 01:46:33 AM  
I approve any motion to transform this thread into a "System Shock 2 was better than Biosho#ERROR#3343443--343--3444433#ERROR
334333
3334333
#ERROR#
REBOOTING TO DEFAULT A.I.

#3#

#3#

#3#

Shut up, stupid libs. All of you.
 
2012-08-15 02:01:14 AM  

SockMonkeyHolocaust: Ayn Rand had great tits.


I would have expected more from a GIS for "Ayn Rand tits"
 
2012-08-15 02:06:53 AM  
FTA:

"Rand did not believe in compromise, so in that sense she's not a practical guide for a politician who wants to get things done," Burns said.

Sounds like the current Republican party.

And the difference between the parties is dynamics.

The Democrats don't do anything.
The Republicans do nothing.
 
2012-08-15 02:12:36 AM  

21-7-b: most people aren't going to read the works, or even abridged versions, but you can see how they can clearly be spliced together under interpretation to provide a coherent message that encourages people to focus on traditional values given as mentioned above. that's a pretty good message and, frankly, will provide a far more solid rhetorical and political foundation than mere slogans. things like inter-generational contract underpin society, but have been eroded, probably with increasing rapidity due to technological advancement. happiness comes from the balance of security and freedom and that requires an underpinning of certainty within society


I'm stunned by this. literally
 
2012-08-15 02:15:00 AM  

Confabulat: This is beyond sci-fi and just purely in the realm of fantasy.


I would argue that it's exactly within the purview of SciFi. Someone discovers a new technology (or style of architecture, whatever) through sheer dumb luck. How do they, as a normal not-particularly-virtuous or otherwise worthy person, react? How does society react in turn?

I mean, her conclusions are kind of weird, as you'd expect from someone that was basically a soviet refugee mixing up soviet propaganda about the US with the US's own propaganda about itself, but the question is a valid SF theme and she's far from the only author that's taken a look at it.

A book that's somewhat less sympathetic to the protagonist and about a thousand times more brilliant, but looking at basically the same themes, would be Bester's The Stars My Destination. Man discovers amazing new widget through sheer happenstance, isn't a particularly nice man, reacts poorly to others trying to obtain it, and goes on a violent crusade against everyone he imagines has offended him as he convinces himself of his own superiority. Of course, this being Bester, the ending is less about one side being the good guys and another being bad and more a weird exploration of the actual psychology involved without a real moral at the end of the story.

Or you could go with the depressingly literal version of the theme and read The Count of Monte Cristo where a not-nice fellow literally finds a treasure through sheer luck and uses it in a sociopathic manner. If you're boring.

Yet Randians think this is how life is supposed to work. It's perfect for self-centered immature teenage boys convinced of their own superiority of everyone around them. That's sort of the defining characteristic of a Randian -- I'm better than everyone else, and it's the world's fault they don't recognize it, not mine. Most people grow out of that phase. Randians cling to it like a life preserver.

Admittedly, this is the weird thing about Rand's version of the story. Where Dumas (and most authors writing the tale) largely decided that this behavior was inappropriate (even though his protagonist, as in every version of the story, still gets off scot free in every real sense) and Bester made it clear throughout his version that it was flawed at best, Rand took it to its actual logical conclusion and made her characters literal sociopaths.

Which would have been kind of brilliant as a subversion, actually, if she wasn't actually in favor of sociopathy.

//fark all y'all, this is a literary analysis thread now.
 
2012-08-15 02:42:28 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Confabulat: This is beyond sci-fi and just purely in the realm of fantasy.

I would argue that it's exactly within the purview of SciFi. Someone discovers a new technology (or style of architecture, whatever) through sheer dumb luck. How do they, as a normal not-particularly-virtuous or otherwise worthy person, react? How does society react in turn?

I mean, her conclusions are kind of weird, as you'd expect from someone that was basically a soviet refugee mixing up soviet propaganda about the US with the US's own propaganda about itself, but the question is a valid SF theme and she's far from the only author that's taken a look at it.

A book that's somewhat less sympathetic to the protagonist and about a thousand times more brilliant, but looking at basically the same themes, would be Bester's The Stars My Destination. Man discovers amazing new widget through sheer happenstance, isn't a particularly nice man, reacts poorly to others trying to obtain it, and goes on a violent crusade against everyone he imagines has offended him as he convinces himself of his own superiority. Of course, this being Bester, the ending is less about one side being the good guys and another being bad and more a weird exploration of the actual psychology involved without a real moral at the end of the story.

Or you could go with the depressingly literal version of the theme and read The Count of Monte Cristo where a not-nice fellow literally finds a treasure through sheer luck and uses it in a sociopathic manner. If you're boring.

Yet Randians think this is how life is supposed to work. It's perfect for self-centered immature teenage boys convinced of their own superiority of everyone around them. That's sort of the defining characteristic of a Randian -- I'm better than everyone else, and it's the world's fault they don't recognize it, not mine. Most people grow out of that phase. Randians cling to it like a life preserver.

Admittedly, this is the weird thing about Rand's vers ...


I guess you're right, she really is sci-fi. When I first heard of Atlas Shrugged, that was how it was presented to me and as a sci-fi geek I'm glad I never bothered to get around to it. But yeah, Rand's conclusions are sort of the opposite of what you'd think decent normal human beings would do in similar circumstances. It's curious there is a cult around the belief that those behaviors should be considered normal or even positive instead of the amoral antisocial activities she describes. But then hell even the Republicans are distancing themselves from her now, so that's probably all we need to know.
 
2012-08-15 02:49:41 AM  

Confabulat: Yet Randians think this is how life is supposed to work. It's perfect for self-centered immature teenage boys convinced of their own superiority of everyone around them. That's sort of the defining characteristic of a Randian -- I'm better than everyone else, and it's the world's fault they don't recognize it, not mine. Most people grow out of that phase. Randians cling to it like a life preserver.


If that motivates you to success in whatever profession you choose, who cares? Works for Kobe Bryant, worked for Steve Jobs, works for lots of people.
 
2012-08-15 02:57:11 AM  

bhcompy: Confabulat: Yet Randians think this is how life is supposed to work. It's perfect for self-centered immature teenage boys convinced of their own superiority of everyone around them. That's sort of the defining characteristic of a Randian -- I'm better than everyone else, and it's the world's fault they don't recognize it, not mine. Most people grow out of that phase. Randians cling to it like a life preserver.

If that motivates you to success in whatever profession you choose, who cares? Works for Kobe Bryant, worked for Steve Jobs, works for lots of people.


Because life is about more than your profession, if you are a whole human being.
 
2012-08-15 03:02:38 AM  

Confabulat: bhcompy: Confabulat: Yet Randians think this is how life is supposed to work. It's perfect for self-centered immature teenage boys convinced of their own superiority of everyone around them. That's sort of the defining characteristic of a Randian -- I'm better than everyone else, and it's the world's fault they don't recognize it, not mine. Most people grow out of that phase. Randians cling to it like a life preserver.

If that motivates you to success in whatever profession you choose, who cares? Works for Kobe Bryant, worked for Steve Jobs, works for lots of people.

Because life is about more than your profession, if you are a whole human being.


Life is about whatever you make of it.
 
2012-08-15 03:03:43 AM  

bhcompy: Life is about whatever you make of it.


Sure, I have no argument with that. Then don't tell me a philosophy that calls other people parasites and moochers is one I can approve of.
 
2012-08-15 03:07:09 AM  

Confabulat: bhcompy: Life is about whatever you make of it.

Sure, I have no argument with that. Then don't tell me a philosophy that calls other people parasites and moochers is one I can approve of.


I didn't. I said who cares what another person's philosophy is. That's their business. This whole thread is all about shiatting on people because of their own personal philosophy, and that's counterproductive to a truly harmonious existence.
 
2012-08-15 03:07:57 AM  

Silly Jesus: timujin: Silly Jesus: Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Is this the thread where people who have never read a book, much less understand the basic ideas contained therein, bash it because that's what all the cool libtard trolls do?

*reads first 50 posts*

Yep, meets the Fark formula.

Carry on.

Is this the thread where some Randian shows up and issues a blank dismissal of criticism by simply assuming none of the critics have ever read Rand (because if they did, they would know what a great intellectual and writer she was)?

Yep, carry on

Yes, because a great deal of the comments don't begin with "I've never read or heard of Rand, but I think she's an idiot and her ideas are BS."

Citation? Because I don't see that. Unless you consider 4 out of 50 to be a "great deal of the comments." And those were only, "I haven't read it," no "she's an idiot and her ideas are BS." Lying is becoming second nature to you, it seems.

You're right. Everyone is having a reasoned discussion concerning the merit of specific aspects of her philosophy and not being reactionary drones with knee-jerk reactions to the very mention of the horrible Rand.


Generally speaking, they were. But because their viewpoint is different than yours, you've dismissed it out of hand as "people who've never heard of Rand, but think she's an idiot" instead of the very real possibility that they have heard of her, have read her, have discussed her work at length and have come to the conclusion that she is an idiot.

Can you consider that the reaction isn't "knee-jerk" but rather that of someone who has actually put some thought into their point of view?
 
2012-08-15 03:08:27 AM  

bhcompy: This whole thread is all about shiatting on people because of their own personal philosophy, and that's counterproductive to a truly harmonious existence.


Stupid and vicious people make a philosophy out of attacking me and most of everyone else in the world, they're kind of already farking up harmony, so fark them.
 
2012-08-15 03:10:51 AM  

bhcompy: I didn't. I said who cares what another person's philosophy is. That's their business. This whole thread is all about shiatting on people because of their own personal philosophy, and that's counterproductive to a truly harmonious existence.


When your personal philosophy is that you are better than everyone else, and you hope civilization burns in fire if you can't be appreciated correctly, than damn right it's other people's business. Lots of philosophies out there are our business, when they decide it makes them superior to others. I would reference a list, but you surely can make up your own. Start with 9/11 and work down from there.
 
2012-08-15 03:14:11 AM  
Harry_Seldon 2012-08-15 12:44:27 AM

SockMonkeyHolocaust: Ayn Rand had great tits.

Ewwwww


Somehow, ah, that reminds me of...butter.
 
2012-08-15 03:17:07 AM  

bhcompy: Confabulat: bhcompy: Life is about whatever you make of it.

Sure, I have no argument with that. Then don't tell me a philosophy that calls other people parasites and moochers is one I can approve of.

I didn't. I said who cares what another person's philosophy is. That's their business. This whole thread is all about shiatting on people because of their own personal philosophy, and that's counterproductive to a truly harmonious existence.


Also, when that person is running for Vice-President of my country and blatently lying about his philosophy to save some conservative Christian votes, that matters to me as well. So I DO care if you worship Ayn Rand. You need to be watched carefully, just like any neo-Nazi would be.
 
2012-08-15 03:26:18 AM  

bhcompy: I didn't. I said who cares what another person's philosophy is. That's their business. This whole thread is all about shiatting on people because of their own personal philosophy, and that's counterproductive to a truly harmonious existence.


It is indeed their business when they aren't already a sitting public official and running for another government office with even greater direct control over the disposition of public funds.

Harmonious or not, putting a person that actively loathes collectivism and glorifies doing whatever one can for one's own benefit at the expense of others may not be the most appropriate choice for managing a large chunk of our collective goods that we would ostensibly like to benefit some not-Paul-Ryan people at some point.

In this specific case, your "not caring what his personal philosophy is" is not laudable tolerance, it's nihilistic negligence regarding your duty as a citizen that borders on actively harmful sociopathy. Neglecting your responsibility of informed citizenship is essentially sabotaging the workings of democracy.

Assuming you live in the US, of course. If not, carry on. I mean, shut the fark up when we're discussing US elected officials if all you've got is arbitrarily dismissive claptrap, but carry on in the more general sense.
 
2012-08-15 03:41:29 AM  

WhyteRaven74: So he goes from Rand to Aquinas, well at least he's consistent, both were authors whose work should have been a lot shorter and who should've realized they were, after twenty pages on a single point, just droning on.


This

media.tumblr.com

Catch-22 might have the catch-22 that it's too long and no one reads the whole thing but at least it changes. Ayn Rand thought that the length of writing was the same as quality of writing. And that was working on typewriters. Imagine if she had been working with word processors.

Charles Dickens had to write everything down at least twice. By hand. It's why his lifetime of constant writing only fills one shelf.
 
2012-08-15 03:45:27 AM  

bhcompy: sammyk: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?

The first I ever heard of it was from Machelle Malkin. I didn't bother looking into it any further. The cult like following it gets reminds me of The Turner Diaries.

So is this a troll? I say this because you sound like a Christian fundamentalist talking about why he won't read the Qur'an.


Ayn Rand doesn't have a billion followers, and her ideas barely have any significance in the world outside Libertarian, American college students. John Galt is about as important to political philosophy as Harry Potter.
But did you enjoy Das Kapital?
 
2012-08-15 03:48:16 AM  

Dansker: Ayn Rand doesn't have a billion followers, and her ideas barely have any significance in the world outside Libertarian, American college students. John Galt is about as important to political philosophy as Harry Potter.


I'd argue Harry Potter is more important to most modern thinkers than Ayn Rand in most of the world. But don't tell libertarian American college students that, they'd burn down Hogwarts too.
 
2012-08-15 03:56:24 AM  
It quite a feat to hold these two thoughts at once, bhcompy
"I say this because you sound like a Christian fundamentalist talking about why he won't read the Qur'an."
" I said who cares what another person's philosophy is."
 
2012-08-15 04:04:50 AM  

Kittypie070: Harry_Seldon 2012-08-15 12:44:27 AM

SockMonkeyHolocaust: Ayn Rand had great tits.

Ewwwww

Somehow, ah, that reminds me of...butter.


reminded me of this scene at 2:55

now with taint of ayn rand

mm buttery randian taint
 
2012-08-15 04:12:53 AM  

Triumph: FTA:"I reject her philosophy," Ryan says firmly. "It's an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a person's view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas,"

God help us.


You had your chance. Go fark your selves.
 
2012-08-15 04:33:55 AM  

Pocket Ninja: I'm willing to bet quite a bit of money that if you selected, at random, any 10 individuals who have ever posted in a thread about Ayn Rand (either favorably or unfavorably), locked them in a room without any pre-warning or internet access, and then asked them each to provide a 2-minute summary of "Atlas Shrugged," no more than 2 or 3 would be able to do so.

The percentage will go up slightly higher for books by Orwell, but not by much.


Believe it or not I made it about 1/2 way through that rambling, sociopathic mess of a story and couldn't go any further. I then later picked it and tried to at least read Galt's big speech. But after about 10 minutes I realized my time was better spent doing anything but reading that nonsense.
 
2012-08-15 05:12:00 AM  
Smackledorfer

I'm stunned by this. literally

hopefully i managed to present the facts. nobody else seemed to have done even a wikipedia search and pointed out that rand herself built aquinas into her overall ideal. instead, starting from the article, we seemed to be asserting that ryan was attempting some seismic shift. to me, that appeared wrong and it appeared that the thread wasn't addressing the issue of how aquinas informs the reading of rand. it might not change your own opinion, but i would suggest it should be held to be of value nonetheless. using rand in this way allows a base to forward a number of values, eg, from above re rand "hard work, thrift, skills and education, personal responsibility" and, from wiki for aquinas, say, "cardinal virtues as prudence, temperance, justice, and fortitude ... and ... theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity" - all of which even [if you like] to me, seem to me to offer a solid platform. now, we can say that rand should be read this way, or that way, or not at all, but if we haven't even branched to a discussion of rand read with aquinas then it's not a genuinely relevant discussion - and it isn't the internal or external discussion 99% of people will have when presented with rand and aquinas boiled down to the values i suggested could be taken from both. people want different things. most people don't want to know whether they are the best at the latest game, the most informed about the latest fad, or the most popular talent show contestant, they just want to live their lives responsibly and try to do their best by their families
 
2012-08-15 05:16:26 AM  

21-7-b: it isn't the internal or external discussion 99% of people will have when presented with rand and aquinas boiled down to the values i suggested could be taken from both


So it's only the 1% that understand, amiright?
 
2012-08-15 05:24:06 AM  

Weaver95: what if all the John Galt wannabes up and left...and society got better for it?


Thats more of a when, than a what-if, allow me:

When all the John Galt wannabes up and leave...society will get better.

John Galt's arent in it for society, they're in it for themselves. Without them, society will fill the vacuum naturally. Imagine an Eco-system where the top predator is removed. That system will prevail successfully. It's when the lower rungs of an Eco-system are removed that the system is jeopardized.
 
2012-08-15 06:26:17 AM  

Frederick: Weaver95: what if all the John Galt wannabes up and left...and society got better for it?

Thats more of a when, than a what-if, allow me:

When all the John Galt wannabes up and leave...society will get better.

John Galt's arent in it for society, they're in it for themselves. Without them, society will fill the vacuum naturally. Imagine an Eco-system where the top predator is removed. That system will prevail successfully. It's when the lower rungs of an Eco-system are removed that the system is jeopardized.


I think a world without John Galts is my kind of world. Egotistical know-it-all scum can fly off to their secret island and have at it. God bless them and get the hell out of our world already instead of demanding yet more drains on our economy.
 
2012-08-15 06:27:16 AM  
And what's stopping all those Galts anyway? Why are they still here? I thought they were better than us.
 
2012-08-15 06:31:11 AM  

Confabulat: And what's stopping all those Galts anyway? Why are they still here? I thought they were better than us.


Junior High kids rarely have enough resources to run away in real life.
 
2012-08-15 06:32:47 AM  

bhcompy: sammyk: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?

The first I ever heard of it was from Machelle Malkin. I didn't bother looking into it any further. The cult like following it gets reminds me of The Turner Diaries.

So is this a troll? I say this because you sound like a Christian fundamentalist talking about why he won't read the Qur'an.


Not trolling. Both seem to attract retards that base their personal philosophy on bad fiction. I have better things to do with my time.
 
2012-08-15 06:34:39 AM  

ModernLuddite: [media.tumblr.com image 420x636]

This is a pretty good book.

Anyone whose first exposure to Rand is through this book is always really, really, really, really, really disappointed with the rest of her oeuvre.


I read that in elementary school (4th Grade). Even then I was bored a third of the way into the book. Granted I was also a big fan of sci-fi by then and understood the concept of individuality and the idea of collective consciousness among individuals, I got bored and kept reading the Uplift series instead.

Then I had to read The Fountainhead. Wasn't impressed. In fact, I got the distinct impression that Rand liked to live out her more....perverted sexual desires in her writing.

College came along and I had to read Atlas Shrugged on a dare with my philosophy professor. 20 hours of my life that I will not get back. I actually ended up snapping a little bit and going on a 30 minute tirade chewing out the Randroid that just WOULD NOT shut up, this was during the 2008 primary season (I was 21 and had spent the previous 3 years working my ass off as a machinist).

I have Ayn Rand to thank for laying down the groundwork that would eventually lead to me leaving the entire notion of conservatism and most of the tenets of libertarianism behind because I realized that all the dumb cock gargling farks that keep rambling on about free market this and invisible hand that are so stupid that they are confusing people that only have anything in common with James Taggart for John Galt. I came pretty close to unloading another tirade on a dumb shiat at work yesterday who actually said that Romney was more like Galt than any of the other candidates including Johnson(Rand is pretty popular among machinists for some stupid reason).

Rand's philosophy is backwards, bankrupt and utterly anti-social. But for none other than the fact that her magnum opus of stink lead to me being able to realize the blatant stupidity of the modern conservative movement every time they make an allusion to a Galt figure when it is so glaringly obvious as to be painful that the person they're referring to is none other than the caricature of lazy and entitled that Rand turned James Taggart into, I forgive her the 28 hours of my life her estate owes me.
 
2012-08-15 06:35:35 AM  

Confabulat: I guess you're right, she really is sci-fi. When I first heard of Atlas Shrugged, that was how it was presented to me and as a sci-fi geek I'm glad I never bothered to get around to it. But yeah, Rand's conclusions are sort of the opposite of what you'd think decent normal human beings would do in similar circumstances. It's curious there is a cult around the belief that those behaviors should be considered normal or even positive instead of the amoral antisocial activities she describes. But then hell even the Republicans are distancing themselves from her now, so that's probably all we need to know.


I've never read Rand, but what I've gleaned of her lame-ass writing is that it wasn't SF, either. It was one of those Utopian/Dystopian fantasy style writings that were very popular amongst a small branch of would-be SF writers. They would decide what they felt was wrong with the world, then create a fantasy world wherein all those things were fixed or changed. They THOUGHT they were writing SF in the vein of LeGuin's "Left Hand of Darkness" or even Zamyatin's "We"; but since they weren't really creating new worlds or ideas, just reinventing America to fit their needs, what they got was a mishmash of confusing ideas.

"Atlas Shrugged" was realized as SF in "Bioshock", but Rand could never have come up with that on her own. Or even with a lot of help.
 
2012-08-15 07:03:00 AM  
And, of course, for the exact wrong reason.
Let's face it folks - the extreme right has reached critical mass again - just like it did with McCarthy and the segregationists back in the late fifties and early sixties.
It's time for the people to smash them again - and it's already beginning.
 
2012-08-15 07:22:14 AM  

s1ugg0: Believe it or not I made it about 1/2 way through that rambling, sociopathic mess of a story and couldn't go any further.


Slightly entertaining anecdote:

I first read the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged when I was 12 or 13, and my family had them in a leatherbound edition because of one of those book club things which sends you random books every month. Because of the doorstopper nature of the tomes, they were both divided into two volumes. Not realizing this and assuming we'd just gotten duplicates at some point (not an uncommon error), the first time I read them I thought that both books literally stopped at the half-way point.

The punchline: both books are better that way. The "halfway point" intentionally picked cliffhanger chapters, where the protagonist was temporarily flattened by the establishment and being figuratively (and in one case literally) kicked while they were down. This turned them into dystopian novels about the futility of resisting the march of communism, with the mindless collectivist hordes grinding down the unsympathetic and flawed but ultimately slightly more human protagonists. I actually thought it was pretty good, in a depressing sort of "life sucks, and then you die, plus you were a dick anyhow so fark you" way.

Of course, later I realized my error and re-read them in their entirety, at which point I was forced to change my evaluation of both works to a resounding "meh".

So... yeah. Literally too wordy in the sense that removing the last 50% of the words makes the novels much, much more fun.

//Also a fan of 1984 and Brave new world at that age. Not so much Animal farm. So possibly I was a wee bit disturbed.
 
2012-08-15 07:45:23 AM  

Jim_Callahan: s1ugg0: Believe it or not I made it about 1/2 way through that rambling, sociopathic mess of a story and couldn't go any further.

Slightly entertaining anecdote:

I first read the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged when I was 12 or 13, and my family had them in a leatherbound edition because of one of those book club things which sends you random books every month. Because of the doorstopper nature of the tomes, they were both divided into two volumes. Not realizing this and assuming we'd just gotten duplicates at some point (not an uncommon error), the first time I read them I thought that both books literally stopped at the half-way point.

The punchline: both books are better that way. The "halfway point" intentionally picked cliffhanger chapters, where the protagonist was temporarily flattened by the establishment and being figuratively (and in one case literally) kicked while they were down. This turned them into dystopian novels about the futility of resisting the march of communism, with the mindless collectivist hordes grinding down the unsympathetic and flawed but ultimately slightly more human protagonists. I actually thought it was pretty good, in a depressing sort of "life sucks, and then you die, plus you were a dick anyhow so fark you" way.

Of course, later I realized my error and re-read them in their entirety, at which point I was forced to change my evaluation of both works to a resounding "meh".

So... yeah. Literally too wordy in the sense that removing the last 50% of the words makes the novels much, much more fun.

//Also a fan of 1984 and Brave new world at that age. Not so much Animal farm. So possibly I was a wee bit disturbed.


That's pretty much the profile of my experience with Rand. She really should be thought of as a Juvenile author - viewed within that context, her work can be given modest respect.
The Fountainhead is actually a decent Juvenile, similar to some of Heinleins politically charged stuff.
It just fails horribly when evaluated as adult literature - and of course, as "philosophy", it's a bad joke.
 
2012-08-15 08:01:40 AM  
Pseudo-philosophy for childish, immature minds based on the poorly written fiction of a hypocrite...

*Dismissive jerking hand motion*
 
2012-08-15 08:06:39 AM  

randomjsa: Yes, people grow up and embrace reality. Except the people who read socialist and communist literature, they never do.


Was Paul Ryan "grown up" in 2005?

Link

"I just want to speak to you a little bit about Ayn Rand and what she meant to me in my life and [in] the fight we're engaged here in Congress. I grew up on Ayn Rand, that's what I tell people."

"I grew up reading Ayn Rand and it taught me quite a bit about who I am and what my value systems are, and what my beliefs are."

"It's inspired me so much that it's required reading in my office for all my interns and my staff. We start with Atlas Shrugged. People tell me I need to start with The Fountainhead then go to Atlas Shrugged [laughter]. There's a big debate about that. We go to Fountainhead, but then we move on, and we require Mises and Hayek as well."

"But the reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand."

"And when you look at the twentieth-century experiment with collectivism-that Ayn Rand, more than anybody else, did such a good job of articulating the pitfalls of statism and collectivism-you can't find another thinker or writer who did a better job of describing and laying out the moral case for capitalism than Ayn Rand."

"It's so important that we go back to our roots to look at Ayn Rand's vision, her writings, to see what our girding, under-grounding [sic] principles are."

"Because there is no better place to find the moral case for capitalism and individualism than through Ayn Rand's writings and works."
 
2012-08-15 08:18:22 AM  

timujin: Neither Rand, nor any Objectivist I've met, truly understood/understand* one of the core tenets of their philosophy, rational self-interest.

.
.
.
*how exactly are you supposed to switch between tenses when talking about both the living and the dead?


Just use understind, the quasimortuperfect.
 
2012-08-15 08:21:19 AM  

unlikely: "I am no longer fascinated by the woman. She was but flesh, she was mortal and flawed and imperfect. Now I know that it is not the woman but the ideas that she espoused that I should worship. It is the ideas, the ideals, the capitalistic ideological purity, that command my affections and steer my policy."


Well nice to know he still misses just why Rand is so well "liked" by most familiar with her ideas and/or life (personally I felt Objectivism was laughable long before I found out what a shameless hypocrite she turned out to be).
 
2012-08-15 08:28:52 AM  

Silly Jesus: Without Fail: Her personal hero William Edward Hickman was in fact a sociopathic child murderer.

And this impacts the philosophy of Atlas Shrugged how?


Because it's a book tied to her own philosophy.

She referred to a man who murdered and butchered a child this way:

"Other people do not exist for him, and he does not see why they should," that he had "no regard whatsoever for all that society holds sacred, and with a consciousness all his own. He has the true, innate psychology of a Superman. He can never realize and feel 'other people.'"


And she described this homicidal sociopath as a "genuinely beautiful soul."

If you don't see those same characteristics in her heroic characters, then you are not at all familiar with her work. She described Howard Roark, the hero of The Fountainhead, this way: "He was born without the ability to consider others." That's a perfect description of a sociopath.

Nah. No connection, I'm sure. And by the way, The Fountainhead is on Paul Ryan's required reading list for his staff.

When Hickman was executed, she said it was "The mob's murderous desire to revenge its hurt vanity against the man who dared to be alone."

Yeah. He was a victim who just wanted to be alone.
 
2012-08-15 08:32:37 AM  

Dansker: Ayn Rand doesn't have a billion followers, and her ideas barely have any significance in the world outside Libertarian, American college students, a recent chairman of the Federal Reserve, a current Supreme Court justice, and a possible Vice President. John Galt is about as important to political philosophy as Harry Potter.

But did you enjoy Das Kapital?


You missed a few.
 
2012-08-15 08:42:52 AM  

Weaver95: what if all the John Galt wannabes up and left...and society got better for it?


... or even noticed that they had left? I think that is their biggest fear.
 
2012-08-15 08:46:57 AM  

A Dark Evil Omen: Fark You I'm Drunk: I'm pretty sure Neil Peart and obsessive Rush fanboys are the only reason there are people past the age of 19 who like Ayn Rand.

Which is really funny because Neil Peart identifies as a left-libertarian now.


Which seems to be where I've ended up, philosophically.

/obsessive fan GIRL, TYVM
 
2012-08-15 08:51:23 AM  
I read Rand when I was young, and 1) got the idea that Rand's work was canonized as literature and 2) that concept of canonization still mattered to me.

What dreary, awful, boring preachy shiat. Apart from any consideration of her "philosophy".

I wouldn't reread Rand if I were on a desert island with literally nothing else to do. When people like Ryan declare themselves fans, I have to laugh when I hear them described as "thoughtful, impressive, intelligent, mature" etc.

Even funnier when they have to walk back their fanboyhood. Riiiiiiiight.
 
2012-08-15 08:57:50 AM  

rtaylor92: I read Atlas Shrugged in my 20's without knowing much about politics or objectivicsm and I enjoyed it. I guess I read it wrong because I thought the "leeches" were all the useless middlemen and bureaucrats like Dagny's brother.


I can understand why you read it that way, seeing as how Rand's antagonists are one-dimensional caricatures of useless bureaucrats and middle men, and whenever she introduces such a character she spends five pages describing how his behavior had brought harm to righteous innovators with the full approval of a corrupt society, and she names them things like Beauregarde U. Middleman.

A is A.
 
2012-08-15 08:58:53 AM  

rufus-t-firefly: Dansker: Ayn Rand doesn't have a billion followers, and her ideas barely have any significance in the world outside Libertarian, American college students, a recent chairman of the Federal Reserve, a current Supreme Court justice, and a possible Vice President. John Galt is about as important to political philosophy as Harry Potter.

But did you enjoy Das Kapital?

You missed a few.


I'm almost certain that legal decisions can't be based entirely on bad literature. And I heard somewhere that the possible vice president publicly renounced Ayn Rand very shortly after becoming a possible vice president, which gives some indication of her ideas' popularity, viability and impact on real life politics.
 
2012-08-15 09:02:53 AM  

Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Lionel Mandrake: Silly Jesus: Oh, I thought that the part where he states he hasn't read it, and then asks if it's all derpy, implied that he thought it was derpy without having read it. I should get my glasses checked, I guess. Derrrrp.

Yes, asks. He also asks if he had missed something, so you could just as easily say he implied it was worth reading.

You're not helping to disprove the image of Randians as idiots.

Yes, anyone who puts any value in her philosophy is an absolute idiot. Your intellect is vastly superior. I tremble in the presence of your tumescent brain. You have truly put me in my place. I now bow to you my lord.

You're pretty smug for a guy who doesn't know the difference between a declarative statement and a question.

By the way, I never expressed my opinion of Rand or her works in this thread, so your attacks on me are pretty childish.

You really need to stop making shiat up. It's more grown-up to debate people on the points they make, not the points you wish they had made.


The problem is, Silly Jesus believes himself to be one of Rand's 'ubermensch' and therefore sees everyone who tries to argue with him about Rand and her Objectivism as beneath him, much as a human sees the ant as beneath them, easily crushed beneath their greatness.
 
2012-08-15 09:16:41 AM  

Confabulat: it was Paul Ryan that peed his pants, not us. We're just mocking him for being too scared to admit he worships her now that he's running for national office and he knows she's embarrassing to most mature adults and conservative Christians alike.


The depressing part of it all is what his doing so reveals about the half-ish of the electorate on that side of the aisle:

Atheism is more politically toxic than Objectivism.

Almost as depressing as education and/or intelligence becoming toxic on that side (e.g. "Harvard-educated" becoming a smear).
 
2012-08-15 09:19:49 AM  

timujin: Neither Rand, nor any Objectivist I've met, truly understood/understand* one of the core tenets of their philosophy, rational self-interest.

.
.
.
*how exactly are you supposed to switch between tenses when talking about both the living and the dead?


Neither is your subject.

Neither Rand, nor any Objectivist I have met has understood one of the core tenets of their philosophy: Rational Self Interest.

Present Perfect Tense solves the problem for you.
blog.ascentis.com
 
2012-08-15 09:22:27 AM  
Ryan: I love Atlas Shrugged, it's why I got into politics, I make my staff read it, I give it away as christmas gifts.

Ryan: Atlas Shrugged? meh it's ok, I wouldn't get into politics over it or anything. It's not the kind of book I'd require my staff to read or give to everyone I know on christmas.


Wow! this guy really does make a good VP pick for Romney
 
2012-08-15 09:25:43 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Atlas Shrugged was published in the 1950s, the literary tradition it inherited was more "golden age of science fiction" than the writers-workshop "show, don't tell" stuff of the '90s you're referring to. It was not considered necessary at the time to try to stuff your agenda into character dialogue or try to conceal it, if you had something to say on the order of there being a moral to the story you just stuck it right in there, or had a character outright monologue it to the audience, and that was fine.


It wasn't fine. Yes there was a "show, don't tell" school of thought pushed in the 90's. And since. That thought certainly wasn't invented then. At the very least, I can refer you to Hemingway's observations on writing. They can be boiled down to, "Show, don't tell." I could throw in Aristotle as well.

There was a lot of dreary dreck published in the 50's. There still is. I actually tried to read all the way through Collen McCullough's series of novels on Rome. I don't know why. Because they constantly TOLD and TOLD and TOLD, in the clumsiest, most childish (and repetitive) ways imaginable. And she's a bestseller.

A lot of people like dreck. They always have and they always will. A lot of people (most in fact) liked--LOVED--the pointless, meandering, preachy "romances" that Cervantes skewered in Don Quixote. A lot of people like to be told, rather than shown.

But the idea that good fiction is based on showing rather than telling is very old. It is a principle understood by all good writers of fiction and always has been. It wasn't the "fashion" to write garbage in the 1950's. It was more like, people were avid for science fiction, and they would read just about anything they could get their hands on that could be described as scifi. The junk didn't just suffer from the "show don't tell" problem. It was also riddled with grammar and spelling errors, foolish made-up words (I came across the word "sickishly" the other day in one of these stories), extravagant use of exclamation points--almost every kind of error you can think of.

And of all the readers who prefer to be told rather than shown, I can think of no better example than Rand fans. TELL me, Ayn, TELL me again, and again, TELL me, hammer me over the head with it. Give me 57 pages of TELLING without a single word of showing.

/rant over
 
2012-08-15 09:28:46 AM  
I read that Rand crap when I was 13 and understood it was nothing but a tantrum being thrown by an adult that never grew up.

If you have to make it to 19 before you see through right wing propaganda you are one big idiot. Maybe even a big fat idiot.
 
2012-08-15 09:45:59 AM  

A Dark Evil Omen: HellRaisingHoosier: Lando Lincoln: Atlas Shrugged is about this superhuman business guy named John Galt who was super awesome at everything he did and one day he just checked out of society because he was tired of all of the mindless bureaucratic red-tape regulations and union bullshiat that surrounds running a business in a modern society like ours. And people freaked out because without John Galt around, everything was going to shiat. And then other really important business tycoons did the same thing. And then all of the union workers and politicians were really sad and miserable and jobless, because the super awesome job creators weren't around to lead them to prosperity and super awesome living. So the moral of the story is, keep sucking rich guy dick or they'll fark you in the ass.


Is this legitimately what the book is about? I've never read it, or even a summary of it. We need to figure out a way tomake all the bankers and CEO's leave. They've been farking a lot of shiat up.

Employee 1: "Dude the CEO just up and left"
Employee 2: "Well the company was doing badly so he was about to lay some of us off. I guess we can use his multi-million dollar benefits, stocks and paychecks to maintain, build and expand the company."
Employee 1: "But who is going to lead us?"
Employee 2: "We're Americans, we'll figure it out on our own and in a democratic fashion. We're educated, we're not afraid of losing our jobs and we now know that any additional profit from the business will go directly into our checking accounts. I think we'll be okay."
Employee 1: "We should have done this years ago!"

This! This this this a thousand times farking this. People need to wake up and understand that the hierarchical corporate model is nothing but a legal pyramid scheme, and it's unnecessary.


One of the main propaganda objective of the retard Raygun years was to turn businessmen into heros. That explains Americas steady decline to a large degree. Business is a brain dead activity ( see Maslows hierarchy ).

When you aim low you'll probably hit even lower and that what's happened since we made the great leap backward in 1980 and decided that the meaning if life was to own your own business and go shopping.
 
2012-08-15 09:46:04 AM  

bhcompy: Confabulat: Yet Randians think this is how life is supposed to work. It's perfect for self-centered immature teenage boys convinced of their own superiority of everyone around them. That's sort of the defining characteristic of a Randian -- I'm better than everyone else, and it's the world's fault they don't recognize it, not mine. Most people grow out of that phase. Randians cling to it like a life preserver.

If that motivates you to success in whatever profession you choose, who cares? Works for Kobe Bryant, worked for Steve Jobs, works for lots of people.


Being an objectivist is neither necessary nor sufficient (nor, I would dare say, even particularly helpful) for success. I'd wager there are far more Rand-worshipping janitors than there are Steve Jobs...es, and they are all just as convinced of their own superiority to their fellow man as he was. Not to mention, there are plenty of very successful people who live their lives completely counter to her sociopathic garbage (Bill Gates, anyone?).
 
2012-08-15 09:57:29 AM  
wonder why Ryan is backing away from Ayn now?

did he not realize her philosophy was essentially the antithesis of what Jesus taught until the church told him so?
does he still not realize the budget he put up is something bizzaro-Jesus might come up with?

Ryan can't just back away from Rand while still pushing her poisonous world view in policy.
It's not just your Rand worship Ryan, it's the affect that life long worship has had on your political views that's disgusting to anyone who gives a rat's ass about their fellow man.

watching Ryan distance himself from this crap right now only shows him to be a power hungry windsock in addition to being a Randian sociopath.
 
2012-08-15 10:43:21 AM  
I saw Silly Jesus admit to trolling by copypasting PETA rubbish in a thread about steak a few days ago.

Link

That was mildly amusing, I guess. But his trolling efforts in this thread have been pathetic. He's going in the ignore bin now. Up your game, son, because you're not even a funny troll.
 
2012-08-15 10:46:22 AM  

Pocket Ninja: Ghastly: In that regard she is very like Tolkien (nobody reads the farking elf songs).

YOU LIE. Tolkien is scintillating reading. He was a storyteller's storyteller.

Frodo set down the ring and sank to the earth in repose. From his backpack, Sam produced a flask of water and some Elven Lembas, and from his waistpouch a small, sealed tin. The tin had been crafted by the tinsmith L'Ortheala'i of the second line of Durenorathala during the Second Age, on the High Night of Pancrea when the Solenil were running in the crystal water from high Holitla and the Darklmunnerors lay yet beneath the graven stones of their forebears who had not yet descended from the lofty heights of Arameir to craft their stony halls. Inside the tin lay a single pat of Glumeliian Butter, which had not been seen in the Shire since the first days of the last days of Sam's mother's father, known to some as his grandfather, who had traveled the Windy Trail beneath the Solemn Mist of the Mount of Holitakea to beseech the Caravan Master of Noriktha, himself of the second line of Durenorathala, to attend the upcoming Festival Harvest of Firhtyta and sell some butter there. Which Sam's mother's father/Grandfather did buy and save in the shallows of the cool Hoytr's water, and which Sam had dutifully carried with him from the moment of their departure.

With the butter knife that had had been crafted by his second cousin Hal, who had been borne during the Third Coming of the Second Rising of the Fourth Turning of the Seventh House and had traveled to Genedain to learn the craft of butter knife forging from the Elven smith Lorelairlahdsthgfksdghjk, son of Ka, Sam spread a pat of Glumeliian Butter on the Lembas and handed the small morsel to Frodo.

"Mmm," Frodo said. "This is some very tasty butter."


Is there like a Pocket Ninja greatest hits album? If so, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
 
2012-08-15 11:26:23 AM  

gameshowhost: PsiChick: Pocket Ninja: I'm willing to bet quite a bit of money that if you selected, at random, any 10 individuals who have ever posted in a thread about Ayn Rand (either favorably or unfavorably), locked them in a room without any pre-warning or internet access, and then asked them each to provide a 2-minute summary of "Atlas Shrugged," no more than 2 or 3 would be able to do so.

The percentage will go up slightly higher for books by Orwell, but not by much.

Atlas Shrugged is a novel in which Ayn Rynd lays out her main ideals on egocentrism as the driving force of the world, using a semi-Heroic Journey pattern with dystopic settings and themes.

/Less than two minutes, but it's what the average writer needs to know.

The funny thing is that egocentrism (at least as far as self-interest is concerned) *IS* the driving force of the world. The problem she runs into is denying that egocentrism also accounts for the Free Rider Effect (e.g. "people will dump off shiatty externalities onto others and the best outcome to society is necessarily ruined if said people aren't FORCED to comply with the appropriate remedies"... i.e. yes, Ayn Rand, you stupid, nasty coont, there *are* things in this world that can't be solved by farking freewheeling it).

So anyhow, it's even funnier that some idiots still can't identify that painfully-simple side of the human nature coin.

Funnier yet is that the dead cumdumpster's swing-and-a-miss re: this most rudimentary aspect of our species' behavior lives on, only to farking ruin everything for nearly everyone on the planet.

/for that matter, they also think that everything can be assigned property rights
//jesus farking christ, you stupid farkholes, how the fark does that work on, say, AIR
///god i farking hate free market ideologues


...I'd actually argue that, for most neurologically typical people (i.e. if your brain is normal), altruism is a completely valid idea. People do enjoy doing things for other people, that's been scientifically proven. Yes, you could argue that they only like it because their brain gives them the happy hormones, but then you'd also be saying that the only reason people like sex is because of happy hormones--sure, you're technically correct, but for all intents and purposes, there really isn't any reason to get that technical.

Now, a surprising number of people are neurologically atypical without being mentally ill. But that doesn't mean egocentrism is the driving force of human nature. It's just one of many driving forces.
 
2012-08-15 11:28:40 AM  

Dansker: bhcompy: sammyk: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?

The first I ever heard of it was from Machelle Malkin. I didn't bother looking into it any further. The cult like following it gets reminds me of The Turner Diaries.

So is this a troll? I say this because you sound like a Christian fundamentalist talking about why he won't read the Qur'an.

Ayn Rand doesn't have a billion followers, and her ideas barely have any significance in the world outside Libertarian, American college students. John Galt is about as important to political philosophy as Harry Potter.
But did you enjoy Das Kapital?


Rand doesn't have a billion followers, she doesn't really need to, her writings have provoked far more discourse and debate than Rowling. Hell, I'd hazard to say that there are very few 20th century philosophical figures that have provoked more. Ideas like hers are extremely important, if nothing else because they obviously force people to consider their own ideas critically in order to shoot hers down

sammyk: Not trolling. Both seem to attract retards that base their personal philosophy on bad fiction. I have better things to do with my time.


I find this sad. There is no reason not to expand your mind simply because you disagree with the subject.

Jim_Callahan: In this specific case, your "not caring what his personal philosophy is" is not laudable tolerance, it's nihilistic negligence regarding your duty as a citizen that borders on actively harmful sociopathy. Neglecting your responsibility of informed citizenship is essentially sabotaging the workings of democracy.


There is a difference between being informed and not caring. If you don't like his personal philosophy, don't vote for him. You don't need to get all frothy in the mouth about it.
 
2012-08-15 11:36:24 AM  

BeesNuts: timujin: Neither Rand, nor any Objectivist I've met, truly understood/understand* one of the core tenets of their philosophy, rational self-interest.

.
.
.
*how exactly are you supposed to switch between tenses when talking about both the living and the dead?

Neither is your subject.

Neither Rand, nor any Objectivist I have met has understood one of the core tenets of their philosophy: Rational Self Interest.

Present Perfect Tense solves the problem for you.


Damn, I never was any good with present perfect.

/ironic, really, as I'm presently perfect.
 
2012-08-15 11:38:44 AM  
I think all thinking people should reject the notions promugated by Rand, and instead reward nonproductive losers for being nonproductive losers, just as if they were not really parasites on society.
 
2012-08-15 11:59:48 AM  

SevenizGud: I think all thinking people should reject the notions promugated by Rand, and instead reward nonproductive losers for being nonproductive losers, just as if they were not really parasites on society.


OK. What kind of reward would you like?
 
2012-08-15 12:24:38 PM  

SevenizGud: I think all thinking people should reject the notions promugated by Rand, and instead reward nonproductive losers for being nonproductive losers, just as if they were not really parasites on society.


Unfortunately, society already does reward nonproductive losers for being nonproductive losers. That's what Wall Street is for.
 
2012-08-15 12:50:24 PM  
It is amazing how a guy like Paul Ryan can just shrug off a philosophy he basically lived his life by until Saturday when he became the Republican V.P. candidate. Same with him now distancing himself from his political claim to fame, his budget. It is like dude has no real principals or he is a liar. No wonder Mitt Romney liked him for V.P..
 
2012-08-15 01:23:33 PM  

bhcompy: Phil Moskowitz: America is the only country that could take "wah! they took my daddies company so those communists are the debil" ethos and raise it to literature. It's a disgrace, and is very telling how damaged the US is even in what some consider intellectual circles.

History is littered with countries that persecuted people and destroyed works for being against the government imposed(or even socially imposed) moral standards. The fact that some Russian chick can immigrate here and write something that would have gotten her gulagged in Russia is a testament to the openness of this nation. People like you are the disgrace. Maybe you don't like the story, maybe you don't like the author, maybe you don't like the philosophy, but that isn't a problem compared to damning America because it allowed someone to write a goddamn motherfarking book you farking tool.


You're that asshole untethered to reality. You think that one guy paddling against the rest of society is not only the one to beat but the apotheosis of humanity. Hitler set up the wehrmacht and the SS in direct competition in just that way. Competition breeding the best humanity can create. Not people working together to create something beyond man.
 
2012-08-15 01:32:01 PM  

bhcompy: sammyk: Not trolling. Both seem to attract retards that base their personal philosophy on bad fiction. I have better things to do with my time.

I find this sad. There is no reason not to expand your mind simply because you disagree with the subject.


It's not that I don't seek enlightenment. I do so daily. But I find political philosophy masquerading as fiction boring and dishonest. In fact mixing politics and art just does not work. The only reason I would read Ayn Rand would be to gain knowlege to use against Rand worshipers and I have kind of grown out of that.
 
2012-08-15 02:02:23 PM  

bhcompy: Dansker: bhcompy: sammyk: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Went through college and grad school and never heard of Rand or the related books. Did I miss something, or was it all just derpy?

The first I ever heard of it was from Machelle Malkin. I didn't bother looking into it any further. The cult like following it gets reminds me of The Turner Diaries.

So is this a troll? I say this because you sound like a Christian fundamentalist talking about why he won't read the Qur'an.

Ayn Rand doesn't have a billion followers, and her ideas barely have any significance in the world outside Libertarian, American college students. John Galt is about as important to political philosophy as Harry Potter.
But did you enjoy Das Kapital?

Rand doesn't have a billion followers, she doesn't really need to, her writings have provoked far more discourse and debate than Rowling.


I bet that's not even true. Unless you count high school book reports. Apparently some of you poor bastards don't even get a choice whether to read her or not.

Hell, I'd hazard to say that there are very few 20th century philosophical figures that have provoked more.

You realize that she is barely read outside the US, right? I hate to tell you this, but Objectivism is not a significant influence on real politics anywhere.

Ideas like hers are extremely important,

Which one is most important?

if nothing else because they obviously force people to consider their own ideas critically in order to shoot hers down

That's not only a huge assumption on your part, but also a very low threshold for "extremely important."
So, how did you like Das Kapital?
 
2012-08-15 08:00:13 PM  
i'm about as Libtastic as you can get, but I enjoyed The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.

When i was 21. Still in college. Didn't have a real job or anything to worry about except what a professor thought of my essay.

Then I graduated from college and went to work.

10 years later, I realized why Atlas Shrugged is in the 'fiction' section of the bookstore.
 
2012-08-15 08:55:37 PM  

immafattie: i'm about as Libtastic as you can get, but I enjoyed The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.


Why? Be specific.
 
2012-08-15 08:59:06 PM  

whidbey: immafattie: i'm about as Libtastic as you can get, but I enjoyed The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.

Why? Be specific.


I enjoyed the frequent subject-verb agreement. You?
 
2012-08-15 09:06:42 PM  

EngineerAU: peasandcarrots: I can almost always tell a modern objectivist writer by the way they write children. For some reason, children in objectivist books don't just talk like full-grown adults, but they talk like fully-actualized well-rounded intelligent adults who are capable of unpacking and analyzing all their inner demons and assessing a potential strategy for dealing with them.

Pretty much this. Long time ago I read a book named 'The Illuminati" by Larry Burkett that had elementary school age children breaking in to long winded soliloquies about the Liberals and how their policies destroy the world. Ten times more wacky than anything Rand ever wrote since Burkett adds in his fundamentalist Christian worldview. Throw in some anti-technology ranting and you've got grouchy-rightwing-uncle-in-a-book.

I bought the book because I enjoyed The Illuminatus Trilogy and thought it was similar. Wow, was I ever surprised by the difference. But it's worth reading just because it is so derpy and the writing is so bad (the author makes simple mistakes like not knowing how to spell 'Point Mugu' correctly). Amazon has it used for a penny plus shipping if you want a laugh.


Google "The Girl who Owned a City."

Oh.
My.
God.
 
2012-08-15 09:35:26 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: whidbey: immafattie: i'm about as Libtastic as you can get, but I enjoyed The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.

Why? Be specific.

I enjoyed the frequent subject-verb agreement. You?


Some of the really long-winded paragraphs/run-on sentences are kind of fun to read. In a trainwreck type state of mind. I guess.
 
2012-08-15 10:22:26 PM  

whidbey: BojanglesPaladin: whidbey: immafattie: i'm about as Libtastic as you can get, but I enjoyed The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.

Why? Be specific.

I enjoyed the frequent subject-verb agreement. You?

Some of the really long-winded paragraphs/run-on sentences are kind of fun to read. In a trainwreck type state of mind. I guess.


Agreed. I felt it helped build my reading stamina and pain thresholds.
 
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