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(BBC-US)   Bitcoin users sue website for losing their money. That's the joke   (bbc.com) divider line 79
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9074 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Aug 2012 at 7:49 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-14 07:53:57 AM
I'm amazed anyone actually still deals with bitcoins. It seems like there's two people trying to use it 1) People manipulating it because they can 2) Morons.

Am I off base? What's the actual appeal and benefit? Is it preferable for shady business or something?
 
2012-08-14 07:53:57 AM
How the hell do you steal virtual currency? Is there some sort of code that is used? if so, invalidate it and move on
 
2012-08-14 07:56:26 AM

TheHumanCannonball: I'm amazed anyone actually still deals with bitcoins. It seems like there's two people trying to use it 1) People manipulating it because they can 2) Morons.

Am I off base? What's the actual appeal and benefit? Is it preferable for shady business or something?


and you found out about it how? some anonymous drug dealing web site that no one talks about.??

fight club. right
 
2012-08-14 08:05:30 AM

TheHumanCannonball:

Am I off base? What's the actual appeal and benefit? Is it preferable for shady business or something?


You forgot drug dealers. Strangely enough they prefer anonymous and untraceable currencies over very easily traceable credit-cards of paypal.
 
2012-08-14 08:15:26 AM
The real joke is that these exchanges get "hacked" at the rate of one per week and this exchange in particular was written by a teenager. He sold it to investors but then stayed on board to help them run it. Allegedly, a mobster antiques collector relative of his stole all his info and took all the money and he heroically got most of it back. The whole thing has been a lesson in economics and especially why the libertarian movement will never work.
 
2012-08-14 08:15:48 AM
Every game has a patsy. If you don't know who the patsy it, it's you.
 
2012-08-14 08:20:44 AM
www.kelleytown.com

Yoink-dot-adios-backslash-losers!
 
2012-08-14 08:20:48 AM
Basically anyone who is into shady money deals. Some people mentioned drug dealers, Ive also seen elements of the russian mob transfering money and back forth via bitcoin. Most likely the same element that hacked bitcoinica lol.

Also, there is no way to "reset" the money codes or whatever, thats the whole point. The only way to generate new money is to "farm" for it, which involves running a complex math program on your computer similar to seti@home or a folding project, and the more people who farm for it and the more money out there in general, the longer it takes. So while it may have taken 3 days to earn 2 bitcoins in the past, 6 months from now it might take 7 days to farm the 2 coins, etc.

Its a rather clever system, actually.

People are retarded for investing real money into this experiment though. I assume most people who are sitting on vast sums just got in on the project early and generated that shiat, I doubt someone converted $100,000 USD to BTC.
 
2012-08-14 08:27:18 AM

TheHumanCannonball: I'm amazed anyone actually still deals with bitcoins. It seems like there's two people trying to use it 1) People manipulating it because they can 2) Morons.

Am I off base? What's the actual appeal and benefit? Is it preferable for shady business or something?


You forgot the people involved in illegal activity, and nuts who think the government is spying on their legal activities.
Personally, I never saw the wisdom of investing in something that loses value as more people invest in it.
 
2012-08-14 08:31:07 AM

SockMonkeyHolocaust: The real joke is that these exchanges get "hacked" at the rate of one per week and this exchange in particular was written by a teenager. He sold it to investors but then stayed on board to help them run it. Allegedly, a mobster antiques collector relative of his stole all his info and took all the money and he heroically got most of it back. The whole thing has been a lesson in economics and especially why the libertarian movement will never work.


Yup, the libertarian movement will never work because people are stupid.
 
2012-08-14 08:38:48 AM

Danack: TheHumanCannonball:

Am I off base? What's the actual appeal and benefit? Is it preferable for shady business or something?

You forgot drug dealers. Strangely enough they prefer anonymous and untraceable currencies over very easily traceable credit-cards of paypal.


So you can buy weed with runescape coins?
 
2012-08-14 08:39:34 AM
Thieves and scumbags get hacked and stolen from by thieves and scumbags. Whoa.
 
2012-08-14 08:41:19 AM
Interesting, thanks for the info.
 
2012-08-14 08:45:42 AM
why not just keep the money at Silk Road. might as well since you should be spending your money on cocaine anyway
 
2012-08-14 08:46:44 AM

ZzeusS: Thieves and scumbags get hacked and stolen from by thieves and scumbags. Whoa.


Blanket contempt for people who seek anonymity and secrecy? You know some governments are thieves and scumbags, or have officials who are, or could someday. There is nothing inherently wrong with taking steps to ensure that no one knows what one is doing.
 
2012-08-14 08:50:29 AM

ZzeusS: Thieves and scumbags get hacked and stolen from by thieves and scumbags. Whoa.


Hey, not every bitcoin miner is a thief or a scumbag. Some of them are really terrible at math and basic economics.
 
2012-08-14 08:55:47 AM

SockMonkeyHolocaust: ZzeusS: Thieves and scumbags get hacked and stolen from by thieves and scumbags. Whoa.

Hey, not every bitcoin miner is a thief or a scumbag. Some of them are really terrible at math and basic economics.


but it's free money.
it's like transferring money from your power company to your Silk Road account.
 
2012-08-14 08:57:56 AM

TheHumanCannonball: I'm amazed anyone actually still deals with bitcoins. It seems like there's two people trying to use it 1) People manipulating it because they can 2) Morons.

Am I off base? What's the actual appeal and benefit? Is it preferable for shady business or something?


Buying drugs online
 
2012-08-14 09:02:48 AM

quick_thinkfast: TheHumanCannonball: I'm amazed anyone actually still deals with bitcoins. It seems like there's two people trying to use it 1) People manipulating it because they can 2) Morons.

Am I off base? What's the actual appeal and benefit? Is it preferable for shady business or something?

Buying drugs online


That just seems like a really bad idea
 
2012-08-14 09:08:06 AM

Alonjar: Basically anyone who is into shady money deals. Some people mentioned drug dealers, Ive also seen elements of the russian mob transfering money and back forth via bitcoin. Most likely the same element that hacked bitcoinica lol.

Also, there is no way to "reset" the money codes or whatever, thats the whole point. The only way to generate new money is to "farm" for it, which involves running a complex math program on your computer similar to seti@home or a folding project, and the more people who farm for it and the more money out there in general, the longer it takes. So while it may have taken 3 days to earn 2 bitcoins in the past, 6 months from now it might take 7 days to farm the 2 coins, etc.

Its a rather clever system, actually.

People are retarded for investing real money into this experiment though. I assume most people who are sitting on vast sums just got in on the project early and generated that shiat, I doubt someone converted $100,000 USD to BTC.


This is a decent summary of bit coins l, I think, and matches what I know about them. I'll add that the exchange rate has fluctuated wildly as bitcoins get talked about in the press, and throw out a CSB.

For a time, I'd go to silk road every few days, just to see what I could see (I'd never be stupid enough to order drugs over the Internet, btw). At the time, bitcoins were receiving their first widespread attention, and the bitcoin was gaining value from rough parity with the dollar trading @ $4-7 per bitcoin.

Since all of the prices on silk road are in bitcoins, NOT in USD-translated-to-bitcoins, this meant that the oz of weed that was selling for 300 bitcoins the day before went from costing $300 USD to costing $1200-$2100 USD. This fluctuation was from a Forbes article, I believe. That's right - one news article.

More to the point, since bitcoins were fluctuating in value so much, nobody on silk road was inclined to reduce their prices - because when the media attention died away (and it did) the bitcoin faced a sudden precipitous decline in value (which happened a few weeks later, I believe).

I guess the point is this: bitcoins are a neat idea, and they are well done for an electronic currency l, but from what I've seen they are entirely too volatile in value and complicated to use to be an effective online currency. Unless you have concerns about remaining anonymous, they're not worth it; and there's the added risk that you'll loose your shirt to the volatility of the bitcoin itself.
 
2012-08-14 09:16:02 AM

TheHumanCannonball: I'm amazed anyone actually still deals with bitcoins. It seems like there's two people trying to use it 1) People manipulating it because they can 2) Morons.

Am I off base? What's the actual appeal and benefit? Is it preferable for shady business or something?


The only place I've seen bitcoins in use is in markets where neither the buyer nor seller trust each other, such as they grey/black market for MMO items.
 
2012-08-14 09:16:05 AM

TheHumanCannonball: I'm amazed anyone actually still deals with bitcoins. It seems like there's two people trying to use it 1) People manipulating it because they can 2) Morons.

Am I off base? What's the actual appeal and benefit? Is it preferable for shady business or something?


Appeal? How about the fact that the currency isn't tied to any one government. How about the fact that users can transfer it directly to each other securely without having to deal with services like paypal or bank wire transfers that want to take a chunk off the top. As long as you have some kind of a reliable backup system in place there is no reason to use any of the online wallets. And no, it isn't just people using it for stuff like drugs. There are a few ebay style sites that use them, some normal retailers, software sales, etc...

It may not be 100% free money but if you are going to leave your computer running anyways the extra power draw of having your machine do some mining vs doing whatever it is normally doing is probably fairly minimal and you can come out ahead. It is the guys running dedicated racks of mining rigs I wonder about. You aren't going to get rich with most machines but you may as well use the machine to make some sort of income if it is already built and running.

So I don't know why you would be amazed at people "still" using bitcoins when their use and useability is increasing. There is enough flux in the market that sinking a lot into them (either as a direct purchase or building dedicated mining machines) as an investment for long term is highly questionable but casual mining on existing machines and short term purchases of BTC to transfer for an online purchase are no big deal in my opinion
 
2012-08-14 09:20:04 AM

Hacker_X: TheHumanCannonball: I'm amazed anyone actually still deals with bitcoins. It seems like there's two people trying to use it 1) People manipulating it because they can 2) Morons.

Am I off base? What's the actual appeal and benefit? Is it preferable for shady business or something?

Appeal? How about the fact that the currency isn't tied to any one government. How about the fact that users can transfer it directly to each other securely without having to deal with services like paypal or bank wire transfers that want to take a chunk off the top. As long as you have some kind of a reliable backup system in place there is no reason to use any of the online wallets. And no, it isn't just people using it for stuff like drugs. There are a few ebay style sites that use them, some normal retailers, software sales, etc...

It may not be 100% free money but if you are going to leave your computer running anyways the extra power draw of having your machine do some mining vs doing whatever it is normally doing is probably fairly minimal and you can come out ahead. It is the guys running dedicated racks of mining rigs I wonder about. You aren't going to get rich with most machines but you may as well use the machine to make some sort of income if it is already built and running.

So I don't know why you would be amazed at people "still" using bitcoins when their use and useability is increasing. There is enough flux in the market that sinking a lot into them (either as a direct purchase or building dedicated mining machines) as an investment for long term is highly questionable but casual mining on existing machines and short term purchases of BTC to transfer for an online purchase are no big deal in my opinion



There was a study awhile ago showing that now that the easy bitcoins have all been found the power cost is greater than the amount of coins you'll find. Unless you live in a place where your electricity is paid for you end up losing money mining bitcoins.
 
2012-08-14 09:20:23 AM
So much for getting MDMA powder and high grade DMT overnighted to my house.
 
2012-08-14 09:22:58 AM

Nem Wan: ZzeusS: Thieves and scumbags get hacked and stolen from by thieves and scumbags. Whoa.

Blanket contempt for people who seek anonymity and secrecy? You know some governments are thieves and scumbags, or have officials who are, or could someday. There is nothing inherently wrong with taking steps to ensure that no one knows what one is doing.



Sure. And people that take many, many steps to deal only in cash and 'live off the grid' are usually completely trustworthy and not hiding anything at all.
 
2012-08-14 09:38:21 AM

ZzeusS: Nem Wan: ZzeusS: Thieves and scumbags get hacked and stolen from by thieves and scumbags. Whoa.

Blanket contempt for people who seek anonymity and secrecy? You know some governments are thieves and scumbags, or have officials who are, or could someday. There is nothing inherently wrong with taking steps to ensure that no one knows what one is doing.


Sure. And people that take many, many steps to deal only in cash and 'live off the grid' are usually completely trustworthy and not hiding anything at all.


Now adays? Sure. They're mostly crackpot crazies, but they're rarely doing illegal things aside from running their own still or maybe growing their own pot. It's simply easier to fly under the radar by doing Average Americana than to live off the grid.

As you have so aptly demonstrated, being different makes people suspicious and untrusting. Being an average uninteresting person just makes people pretend you're not even there.
 
2012-08-14 09:48:19 AM
Canadian Tire money is a more legitimate currency.

Or CVS ExtraCare bucks.

/bitcoin is a ponzi scheme for nerds.
 
2012-08-14 10:04:23 AM
It's a shame bitcoin is only used for Silk Road and a few other obscure services. The concept is noble, to have a standardized currency on the internet, like it was it's own country.

Sadly, as though it was it's own country, people abused it, and we all suffered for it.
 
2012-08-14 10:06:30 AM
I feel the same way about Flooz.com and Beanz.com.

Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a fiat currency cage.
 
2012-08-14 10:07:26 AM
Surely Google could farm a metric crap ton of bitcoins in next to no time, completely destroy the market.
 
2012-08-14 10:10:29 AM

Jonny Ninja: Surely Google could farm a metric crap ton of bitcoins in next to no time, completely destroy the market.


Then you've wasted more money producing them then they are worth.

"I made $40 dollars in bitcoins with $50 in electricity! I'm in the hole 10 buck, and that doesn't include the cost of the mining rig!"

/sound investment bitcoins are....
 
2012-08-14 10:27:41 AM

fluffy2097: Jonny Ninja: Surely Google could farm a metric crap ton of bitcoins in next to no time, completely destroy the market.

Then you've wasted more money producing them then they are worth.

"I made $40 dollars in bitcoins with $50 in electricity! I'm in the hole 10 buck, and that doesn't include the cost of the mining rig!"

/sound investment bitcoins are....


At the very least, bitcoins aren't gonna see much inflation.
 
2012-08-14 10:32:22 AM
bitcoin: an internet technology for people who live off the grid.


hey, wait a minute...
 
2012-08-14 10:32:44 AM

IronJelly: It's a shame bitcoin is only used for Silk Road and a few other obscure services. The concept is noble, to have a standardized currency on the internet, like it was it's own country.

Sadly, as though it was it's own country, people abused it, and we all suffered for it.

Link

If you can't find something worth spending your bitcoins on you are either an amazingly picky person or you just aren't looking.
 
2012-08-14 10:50:09 AM
bitcoins==tulip bulbs
 
2012-08-14 10:53:09 AM

Hacker_X: If you can't find something worth spending your bitcoins on you are either an amazingly picky person or you just aren't looking.


Can you convert bitcoins to dollars from an FDIC accredited bank?

That's the only thing I can think of.

/I could probably get more South African rand then dollars though. Maybe I should convert to that.
 
2012-08-14 11:06:38 AM

Trackball: SockMonkeyHolocaust: The real joke is that these exchanges get "hacked" at the rate of one per week and this exchange in particular was written by a teenager. He sold it to investors but then stayed on board to help them run it. Allegedly, a mobster antiques collector relative of his stole all his info and took all the money and he heroically got most of it back. The whole thing has been a lesson in economics and especially why the libertarian movement will never work.

Yup, the libertarian movement will never work because people are stupid.


And controlled societies will never work because politicians are stupid.

As control goes up, so does the complexity of the bureaucracy, and the efficiency of the bureaucracy goes down. We all lose.

Complete anarchy is silly. But the happy medium of freedom and a controlled state needs to lean more toward freedom before we are great again.

All of this fascism and socialism crap is a vestige of the industrial society. Governments needed to make sure people got to the factories.

In the information age, we're past it now. Freedom will be on the increase. Any institution who supports the controlled society will eventually fail and remain on the wrong side of history.
 
2012-08-14 11:10:50 AM

KarmicDisaster: bitcoins==tulip bulbs


Not necessarily. BTC peaked at about $32, then fell down to around $4 for quite some time. Since then it's made steady progress to the $11 range. IIRC, tulips peaked then fell, never to recover.

I have a good friend who has been at the forefront of the computer revolution for a very long time. He was one of the first to recognize Yahoo and invest heavily into it. Same with Google, and then Linux. He's been right every time, and now he's saying BTC is the next online revolution. He has over 250k invested in bitcoins.

I'm not ready to get invested in any legit way, however his arguments are intriguing. He's been correct on every major internet windfall thus far. So much that he's been a vagabond who makes tens of thousands of dollars from his laptop as he travels the world for about 10 years now.

I'm still a skeptic, but should BTC be the next currency, these early users are going to become very, very rich. Some already are (those who invested when it was ~ $0.02/btc)
 
2012-08-14 11:24:12 AM

D-Liver: Some already are (those who invested when it was ~ $0.02/btc)


And those are the only ones who ever will be.

Unfortunately, all you're going to buy with bitcoins is child pornography, drugs, and crap on etsy.

Nobody else needs the anonymity enough or is willing to put up with the volatility of the market.
 
2012-08-14 11:25:44 AM
I meant to ask earlier, but didn't Bitcoin people sue either Fark or Somethingawful for having a simple story about what they were, how they worked, etc.?

No open mockery, no nothing else, just...here's what they are..

And apparently the story being ON a website was enough to scare the jebesus out of all the Bitcoin owners in the world and cause a run where everyone sold off everything, meaning the coins were worth pennies on the dollar..?
 
2012-08-14 11:55:12 AM

kroonermanblack: I meant to ask earlier, but didn't Bitcoin people sue either Fark or Somethingawful for having a simple story about what they were, how they worked, etc.?

No open mockery, no nothing else, just...here's what they are..

And apparently the story being ON a website was enough to scare the jebesus out of all the Bitcoin owners in the world and cause a run where everyone sold off everything, meaning the coins were worth pennies on the dollar..?


It's pretty much an alpha version. It shouldn't be relied on as you shouldn't rely on alpha software. Not everyone should be an early adopter.

And this very well may be a faulty technology, but the idea is solid. It most likely won't make it in it's current form, but later versions or a fork could be very effective.

And, yes, like vulnerable stocks or other currency, news stories will cause flux.

BTW, I would like to read about the story you mentioned. If you do come across it please post.
 
2012-08-14 12:05:46 PM

uber humper: In the information age, we're past it now. Freedom will be on the increase. Any institution who supports the controlled society will eventually fail and remain on the wrong side of history.


See, it's great to write all those words but since the Meze Grill stopped taking bitcoins people in the glorious free society outside of fiat currency have to rely on that one guy that dries strawberries over his mining rig for sustenance.
 
2012-08-14 12:10:25 PM
I really doubt BTC are anonymous. They just aren't very widespread and they frequently go in/out of easily monitored exchanges. Those highly encrypted jumbles of data are still present and identifiable. Your network provider knows when you are using TOR, even if they can't discern what you are doing. I am sure the government has a nice big pile of data to mine based upon movement of BTC. The public won't find out about it until some big event/investigation involving them comes about and then the beans will get spilled.
 
2012-08-14 12:31:26 PM

kroonermanblack: I meant to ask earlier, but didn't Bitcoin people sue either Fark or Somethingawful for having a simple story about what they were, how they worked, etc.?

No open mockery, no nothing else, just...here's what they are..

And apparently the story being ON a website was enough to scare the jebesus out of all the Bitcoin owners in the world and cause a run where everyone sold off everything, meaning the coins were worth pennies on the dollar..?


"Bitcoin" can't sue. It's not an organization. The entire point is that it's a decentralized thing. And the media was full of Bitcoin coverage back when. The media coverage is what drove the prices up.

It's possible that one of the Bitcoin currency exchanges got mad and sued someone, but I don't remember that.
 
2012-08-14 12:34:22 PM

SockMonkeyHolocaust: uber humper: In the information age, we're past it now. Freedom will be on the increase. Any institution who supports the controlled society will eventually fail and remain on the wrong side of history.

See, it's great to write all those words but since the Meze Grill stopped taking bitcoins people in the glorious free society outside of fiat currency have to rely on that one guy that dries strawberries over his mining rig for sustenance.


It takes time to make change. ;)
 
2012-08-14 02:39:27 PM

madgonad: I really doubt BTC are anonymous. They just aren't very widespread and they frequently go in/out of easily monitored exchanges. Those highly encrypted jumbles of data are still present and identifiable. Your network provider knows when you are using TOR, even if they can't discern what you are doing. I am sure the government has a nice big pile of data to mine based upon movement of BTC. The public won't find out about it until some big event/investigation involving them comes about and then the beans will get spilled.


It's a matter of being so public it's private. You can have any number of addresses as you can generate bitcoin wallets completely offline and when you take them online to do a transaction with them, they're in the open. It's not possible to add bitcoins to yourself offline since it has to be generated online and when it is, it is placed into a wallet publicly with it's own encryption key. I'm not sure if two wallets can be exactly alike, but if you've got wallet A and A(copy), both having 1 bitcoin, both having the same bitcoin with the same encryption, you still only have 1 coin as when you publicly transfer it, it's not considered yours anymore and it's placed into the next persons wallet and trying to make another purchase with it is accessing the coin you've publicly shown to have traded away. In the same sense, you can have wallet A and A(copy), one having 1 coin, the other none, but since the non-copy has the correct key, despite having the same wallet name, it's able to access that coin.
 
2012-08-14 03:07:28 PM

UrCa: madgonad: I really doubt BTC are anonymous. They just aren't very widespread and they frequently go in/out of easily monitored exchanges. Those highly encrypted jumbles of data are still present and identifiable. Your network provider knows when you are using TOR, even if they can't discern what you are doing. I am sure the government has a nice big pile of data to mine based upon movement of BTC. The public won't find out about it until some big event/investigation involving them comes about and then the beans will get spilled.

It's a matter of being so public it's private. You can have any number of addresses as you can generate bitcoin wallets completely offline and when you take them online to do a transaction with them, they're in the open. It's not possible to add bitcoins to yourself offline since it has to be generated online and when it is, it is placed into a wallet publicly with it's own encryption key. I'm not sure if two wallets can be exactly alike, but if you've got wallet A and A(copy), both having 1 bitcoin, both having the same bitcoin with the same encryption, you still only have 1 coin as when you publicly transfer it, it's not considered yours anymore and it's placed into the next persons wallet and trying to make another purchase with it is accessing the coin you've publicly shown to have traded away. In the same sense, you can have wallet A and A(copy), one having 1 coin, the other none, but since the non-copy has the correct key, despite having the same wallet name, it's able to access that coin.


None of that has anything to do with anonymity. The anonymity features of Bitcoin are not as robust as Tor's, and when the NSA is slurping up the entire internet into storage so they can continually re-run more advanced traffic analysis on it as hardware gets better, it's almost impossible to make truly anonymous transactions online. Patterns always emerge, encryption keys get cracked, with enough effort.
 
2012-08-14 05:17:58 PM

foxyshadis:

None of that has anything to do with anonymity. The anonymity features of Bitcoin are not as robust as Tor's, and when the NSA is slurping up the entire internet into storage so they can continually re-run more advanced traffic analysis on it as hardware gets better, it's almost impossible to make truly anonymous transactions online. Patterns always emerge, encryption keys get cracked, with enough effort.


Wait, you don't actually believe the NSA is recording a copy of all internet traffic do you? Do you have any concept of just how much raw data that is every single second? There isn't a data center on the planet with enough hard drive and tapes to store even one days worth of internet traffic.
 
2012-08-14 06:50:13 PM

Hacker_X: Wait, you don't actually believe the NSA is recording a copy of all internet traffic do you? Do you have any concept of just how much raw data that is every single second? There isn't a data center on the planet with enough hard drive and tapes to store even one days worth of internet traffic.


The NSA wouldn't want to capture all the things, just filter. they're searching for different keywords and keeping things of interest. Seems like a good way to collect a lot of garbage data tbh, even with filtering.

I'm pretty confident that the NSA has no file on me. Me and my porn is a waste of data center space.
 
2012-08-14 08:22:58 PM

Hacker_X: foxyshadis:

None of that has anything to do with anonymity. The anonymity features of Bitcoin are not as robust as Tor's, and when the NSA is slurping up the entire internet into storage so they can continually re-run more advanced traffic analysis on it as hardware gets better, it's almost impossible to make truly anonymous transactions online. Patterns always emerge, encryption keys get cracked, with enough effort.

Wait, you don't actually believe the NSA is recording a copy of all internet traffic do you? Do you have any concept of just how much raw data that is every single second? There isn't a data center on the planet with enough hard drive and tapes to store even one days worth of internet traffic.


Not everything, certainly not media files, mostly just metadata - every connection, when, where, how much - with samplings that traffic analysis highlight as interesting, worth future study, and a bit of entirely random stuff for testing purposes. They might throw out anything unencrypted immediately after verifying that it's uninteresting and stop recording connections surrounding it, if they're pressed for data.

I have no doubt that they have tens or hundreds of terabytes dedicated to storing connection information at each peering point. The hardware to do all of that a hundred times over would cost much less than a single F-22.
 
2012-08-14 08:48:02 PM

foxyshadis: Hacker_X: foxyshadis:

None of that has anything to do with anonymity. The anonymity features of Bitcoin are not as robust as Tor's, and when the NSA is slurping up the entire internet into storage so they can continually re-run more advanced traffic analysis on it as hardware gets better, it's almost impossible to make truly anonymous transactions online. Patterns always emerge, encryption keys get cracked, with enough effort.

Wait, you don't actually believe the NSA is recording a copy of all internet traffic do you? Do you have any concept of just how much raw data that is every single second? There isn't a data center on the planet with enough hard drive and tapes to store even one days worth of internet traffic.

Not everything, certainly not media files, mostly just metadata - every connection, when, where, how much - with samplings that traffic analysis highlight as interesting, worth future study, and a bit of entirely random stuff for testing purposes. They might throw out anything unencrypted immediately after verifying that it's uninteresting and stop recording connections surrounding it, if they're pressed for data.

I have no doubt that they have tens or hundreds of terabytes dedicated to storing connection information at each peering point. The hardware to do all of that a hundred times over would cost much less than a single F-22.


It isn't just a matter of hardware costs, it is a matter of the physical space and electrical + data connections for all the hardware. Even throwing out all unencrypted communications you are still talking colossal amounts of data. Just take encrypted torrents as an example. Each block of data is going to require a minimum of one inbound connection and one outbound connection. That means on relatively typical torrents you can be talking 20,000 connections to log. From one file transfer and only one end of the connection. And that is assuming relative large block sizes of a meg or half meg instead of something like 32KB blocks. Now picture billions of those transfers occurring every hour. Now throw in millions upon millions of secured connection for games they would want to try to monitor because of in game chat, emails, SSL websites, etc...

The amount of data you are talking about essential amounts to all the data warehoused by Google. Except you would need that much storage space for every single days worth of data. Even with just logging all the connections it just isn't possible with current data storage and transmission capacities. And by the time it would be it again wouldn't be enough because everybody out there would have faster connections and even more personal storage to fling stuff around at each other.

The NSA has stuff in place to theoretically monitor everything at once but the reality is they simply can't even if they were willing to wade through mountains of useless data.
 
2012-08-14 09:33:18 PM
Bitcoins? More like biatchcoins!
 
2012-08-15 01:57:30 AM
CosbyCoin is the new shiat.
 
2012-08-15 02:54:32 AM
I've been waiting for this day for a long time. Fark has a story on Bitcoin. It's finally made it!

Seriously though, Bitcoin is a fascinating and very strong system for sending money between people and businesses without having to trust any third-parties. Social media, email, and cloud-services all required a sort-of-rethinking for the Internet to reach their current potential. Think of Bitcoin as that done for the financial system.

/totally kidding
//no I'm not
 
2012-08-15 10:48:40 AM

weex: I've been waiting for this day for a long time. Fark has a story on Bitcoin. It's finally made it!

Seriously though, Bitcoin is a fascinating and very strong system for sending money between people and businesses without having to trust any third-parties. Social media, email, and cloud-services all required a sort-of-rethinking for the Internet to reach their current potential. Think of Bitcoin as that done for the financial system.

/totally kidding
//no I'm not


It just needs more users.

I wouldn't mind doing some small projects for bit coins. Building a pure virtual business has an appeal to it. More for learning than profit. That kind of learning will be critical for the success for anyone who wants to excel in the new economy.

Free, open trade is the future. People will try to stop it, governments may imprison people and kill over it, it may be delayed by some sort of dark ages, but it's coming. It's the future -- "true progress" not this bull shiat progress (that's really a regress) that the left is selling.
 
2012-08-15 10:52:40 AM

uber humper: It just needs more users.


It needs a legitimate exchange to real money.

I'm not going to John Wayne Gacy's basement just to exchange my bitcoins for cash. you will not find anyone but private citizens exchanging them. No banks, no businesses.

Advertising toy money to real money conversion would be a great tactic for a serial killer, because who's going to miss someone who uses bitcoins anyways?
 
2012-08-15 10:56:19 AM
Can I buy a game on Steam with bitcoins? Nope.

Can I buy gasoline with bitcoins? Nope.

Can I buy music from iTunes with bitcoins? Nope.

Products from amazon.com? Nope.

Newegg? Nope.

Can I buy food with bitcoins? Nope.

Water? Nope.

Shelter? Nope.

Well at least I can buy the power to run my bitcoin mining rig with bitcoins right? LOL. Nope.

Just what legitimate companies ACCEPT bitcoins?

none.
 
2012-08-15 11:10:03 AM

fluffy2097: It needs a legitimate exchange to real money.

:

in the mean time exchange them for dollars instead of buying goods/services with the bitcoins. I wouldn't trust the exchanges with huge amounts. But the more they grow the less likely they would scam you out of your chump change. Take Mt. Gox for instance. Do you think they would ruin their reputation over your $500?, $1,000?, $10,000?, $100,000?. I wouldn't trust them to exchange $100k but I would make ten $10k exchanges with them.

Anyways, if I did have a micro business (not mining, I'd do small coding projects) that was paid it bit coins-- I would horde them. Again, it's more of an intellectual exercise at this point.
 
2012-08-15 11:43:06 AM

uber humper: fluffy2097: It needs a legitimate exchange to real money.:

in the mean time exchange them for dollars instead of buying goods/services with the bitcoins. I wouldn't trust the exchanges with huge amounts. But the more they grow the less likely they would scam you out of your chump change. Take Mt. Gox for instance. Do you think they would ruin their reputation over your $500?, $1,000?, $10,000?, $100,000?. I wouldn't trust them to exchange $100k but I would make ten $10k exchanges with them.

Anyways, if I did have a micro business (not mining, I'd do small coding projects) that was paid it bit coins-- I would horde them. Again, it's more of an intellectual exercise at this point.


The exchanges are random people setting up random websites with no qualifications.

Or do you remember the exchange that was put up by a 15 year old that got robbed, and still hasn't paid back the money owed to it's customers?

I deal in currency that FDIC accredited banks will deal in. Until bitcoin can do that, it's for buying child pornography, drugs, and shiat from regretsy.
 
2012-08-15 12:02:19 PM

fluffy2097: Or do you remember the exchange that was put up by a 15 year old that got robbed, and still hasn't paid back the money owed to it's customers?

I deal in currency that FDIC accredited banks will deal in. Until bitcoin can do that, it's for buying child pornography, drugs, and shiat from regretsy.




The Mt. Gox, I referenced before, does 80--90% of the bit coin - dollar exchange work. I'd use them.

If I were you I wouldn't, either. Your comfort zone and intellect are too small (you should of assumed to go to the largest exchange).
 
2012-08-15 01:13:31 PM

fluffy2097: uber humper: fluffy2097: It needs a legitimate exchange to real money.:

in the mean time exchange them for dollars instead of buying goods/services with the bitcoins. I wouldn't trust the exchanges with huge amounts. But the more they grow the less likely they would scam you out of your chump change. Take Mt. Gox for instance. Do you think they would ruin their reputation over your $500?, $1,000?, $10,000?, $100,000?. I wouldn't trust them to exchange $100k but I would make ten $10k exchanges with them.

Anyways, if I did have a micro business (not mining, I'd do small coding projects) that was paid it bit coins-- I would horde them. Again, it's more of an intellectual exercise at this point.

The exchanges are random people setting up random websites with no qualifications.

Or do you remember the exchange that was put up by a 15 year old that got robbed, and still hasn't paid back the money owed to it's customers?

I deal in currency that FDIC accredited banks will deal in. Until bitcoin can do that, it's for buying child pornography, drugs, and shiat from regretsy.


It's like people don't get that a system designed to be anonymous on as many levels as possible is going to attract inherently untrustworthy or incompetent people. The whole bitcoin/miner concept seems designed to game other people as much as possible. "Yeah I hate the fiat currency banking system so let's make a currency that's even more fiat, and has less oversight than the system I'm talking mad shiat about! Instead of taxing people and applying that to the common good, let's allow people to charge whatever fees they want and pocket all of that!" Short sighted hypocrites is the most charitable way I can describe people who think this is a viable solution in the present day.
 
2012-08-15 01:44:02 PM
The roadmap to monetary freedom
 
2012-08-15 02:03:43 PM
Has anyone looked at the bitcoin price chart lately?
bitcoincharts.com
 
2012-08-15 02:14:40 PM

cheJ4tei: Has anyone looked at the bitcoin price chart lately?
bitcoincharts.com


I don't know about the URL you posted. Today, Mt. Gox is trading about $12.50.
 
2012-08-15 02:26:01 PM

Crotchrocket Slim: It's like people don't get that a system designed to be anonymous on as many levels as possible is going to attract inherently untrustworthy or incompetent people. The whole bitcoin/miner concept seems designed to game other people as much as possible. "Yeah I hate the fiat currency banking system so let's make a currency that's even more fiat, and has less oversight than the system I'm talking mad shiat about! Instead of taxing people and applying that to the common good, let's allow people to charge whatever fees they want and pocket all of that!" Short sighted hypocrites is the most charitable way I can describe people who think this is a viable solution in the present day.


I wouldn't say that I hate the current monetary system. I LOVE it. i also have no problem with paying taxes. I believe it's a bargain, for what I get. Alternatives are always welcome. To not entertain new technologies, by definition, is narrow minded. Not to have alternatives is dangerous.

What you think about the Euro?
Was that creation, short-sighted or long ? Should they have not done it or was it a good idea to adopt that alternative?
 
2012-08-15 02:43:32 PM
check out these links,

blog.zorinaq.com/?e=66

c4ss.org/content/11718
 
2012-08-15 02:51:19 PM

cheJ4tei: check out these links,

blog.zorinaq.com/?e=66

c4ss.org/content/11718


You're new here. If you just post links it looks like spam.
 
2012-08-15 02:51:44 PM

uber humper: Crotchrocket Slim: It's like people don't get that a system designed to be anonymous on as many levels as possible is going to attract inherently untrustworthy or incompetent people. The whole bitcoin/miner concept seems designed to game other people as much as possible. "Yeah I hate the fiat currency banking system so let's make a currency that's even more fiat, and has less oversight than the system I'm talking mad shiat about! Instead of taxing people and applying that to the common good, let's allow people to charge whatever fees they want and pocket all of that!" Short sighted hypocrites is the most charitable way I can describe people who think this is a viable solution in the present day.

I wouldn't say that I hate the current monetary system. I LOVE it. i also have no problem with paying taxes. I believe it's a bargain, for what I get. Alternatives are always welcome. To not entertain new technologies, by definition, is narrow minded. Not to have alternatives is dangerous.

What you think about the Euro?
Was that creation, short-sighted or long ? Should they have not done it or was it a good idea to adopt that alternative?


I mean I hear you, but crappy alternatives are not viable alternatives.

The issue with the Euro is with the political structure of the EU; honestly while the idea of one universal currency is a cool one, practically speaking if not all "subject" parties trust the issuing body of the currency or feel they have an equal influence over policy etc. we have many of the same issues I have with "privately minted" currencies. Don't forget that at its core money is a social agreement between people (really if I can't use a dollar to buy food or shelter from others etc. why do I want to be paid in dollars?) and trust and at least perceived fairness is absolutely vital for a system like this to work. I don't see how a body can have this level of influence and simultaneously be influenced by a population without being a government or effectively becoming a government over time.

My issue with Bitcoins is that anyone can run a bitcoin miner, and I have no reliable way of performing due diligence. The lack of oversight is what gets me. I mean I don't necessarily trust governments etc. but at least democratically structured ones are meant to be fiercely monitored by their constituency (so I am used to talking about Bitcoins with anarchist types who just like things that take power out of government despite unscrupulous individuals taking advantage of the weak historically speaking). I know nothing about this Goz fellow or if he has some sort of long term game plan I might object to. Governments change parties etc. all the time so they only get as evil and corrupt as the people allow.
 
2012-08-15 03:08:48 PM
Crotchrocket Slim:


Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, I don't have time for an in-depth response -- gotta get back to generating my greenbacks:)

The short answer, bitcoin is in an Alpha stage (it's not ready for a production environment and not meant for the non-savvy but available for the curious). It may or may not make it. But the cat is out of the bag, people (crooks as well as good men) will always search for freedom. If this doesn't catch on, a fork of something similar will in the future.

Governments are inherently bad at management, as it gets larger the expenses of government grows exponentially -- bureaucracies aren't scalable.

And no, a world currency is a terrible idea. If that fails, everyone is farked without options. No where to go.

If you post again, I'll read it but not respond. I'll give you the last word. I have to focus on work.

I'll catch you in another thread.
 
2012-08-15 04:19:02 PM

fluffy2097: Can I buy a game on Steam with bitcoins? Nope.

Can I buy gasoline with bitcoins? Nope.

Can I buy music from iTunes with bitcoins? Nope.

Products from amazon.com? Nope.

Newegg? Nope.

Can I buy food with bitcoins? Nope.

Water? Nope.

Shelter? Nope.

Well at least I can buy the power to run my bitcoin mining rig with bitcoins right? LOL. Nope.

Just what legitimate companies ACCEPT bitcoins?

none.


But if you leave out that one specific keyword, you can get all sorts of stuff with them.

//legitimate. I don't think it applies here. Bitcoins get me the mind altering substances I can't otherwise find in this small town that I live in, and I will be sad if they ever go away.
 
2012-08-15 08:02:04 PM
Nothing says "stability" like a digital currency that fluctuates $4 USD in 24 hours.
 
2012-08-15 10:02:41 PM

IronJelly: //legitimate. I don't think it applies here. Bitcoins get me the mind altering substances I can't otherwise find in this small town that I live in, and I will be sad if they ever go away.


But officer! I bought it with bitcoins!

Yeah.... May as well use paypal bro.
 
2012-08-16 02:34:45 AM
Fjordo over on reddit was nice enough to put together some links for fluffy2097:

Don't have a fark account, so I guess I'll just respond here.

Can I buy a game on Steam with bitcoins? Nope.

Yes http://www.bitmit.net/en/q/?q=steam
e.g. http://www.bitmit.net/en/trade/i/4892-batman-arkham-city-steam-gift/d e scription


Can I buy music from iTunes with bitcoins? Nope.

Yes, usually with a discount. http://www.bitmit.net/en/q/?q=iTunes
e.g, http://www.bitmit.net/en/trade/i/4341-20-australian-itunes-gift-card/ d escription


Products from amazon.com? Nope.

Yes, often at a discount. http://www.bitmit.net/en/q/?q=amazon
e.g http://www.bitmit.net/en/trade/i/4813-30-in-amazon-payments/descripti o n


Newegg? Nope.

Yes, often at a discount. http://www.bitmit.net/en/trade/i/4708-newegg-gift-card-50-100-250-usd / description

Can I buy food with bitcoins? Nope.

Are you kidding me? This was available in 2011.
http://btcpantry.com/
http://bitbrew.net/
http://www.bitmit.net/en/shop/c/14-food-and-drinks/1-food
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=14828.0


Shelter? Nope.

Sure.
http://www.bitmit.net/en/trade/i/3852-house-of-stone-and-6000m2/desc ri ption
https://ogrr.com/viewtopic.php?f=268&p=13243#p13243


Can I buy gasoline with bitcoins? Nope.

Water? Nope.

Well at least I can buy the power to run my bitcoin mining rig with bitcoins right?


Ok you got me there. There doesn't seem to be any gas cards for sale, nor pay for utilities yet. I'm not sure how that invalidates bitcoin.

** via ferritinjapan: Actually spendbitcoins.com does allow you to pay your utilities in Australia with Bitcoin.


Just what legitimate companies ACCEPT bitcoins?

Actually, a pretty large amount: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade
 
2012-08-16 07:35:25 AM
Welp, let me just convert the currency of any other nation backed by a stable government into spergerrands or blow out my video card running it 24/7 to mine 1/10 of a spergerrand so that I can then post in an auction to buy something that was bought with the currency of any other nation backed by a stable government.
 
2012-08-16 09:17:03 AM

phraust: bitmit advertisment


So, is there any way you can buy something with bitcoins not through a non accredited, completely random, faith based, 3rd party?

Because a knockoff e-bay selling gift cards doesn't meet any of my requirements.
 
2012-08-16 12:07:35 PM
Someone is doing magic tricks on Reddit- register at a bitcoin exchange, tell him your email address and he'll tell you your password.

/thanks somethingawful 

"However, as the OP demonstrated, the passwords are actually stored as MD5 (try it yourself). These people are launching one site after another with the same vulnerabilities and they aren't even taking note of the suggestions, don't display any kind of learning from their mistakes and even seem to lie about things to be able to not learn. It's like a conspiracy trying to generate quantitative proof that Bitcoin businesses are bound to be incompetent."
 
2012-08-16 06:59:34 PM

fluffy2097: phraust: bitmit advertisment


Ad hominem, check.

So, is there any way you can buy something with bitcoins not through a non accredited, completely random, faith based, 3rd party?

Strawman, check.

Because a knockoff e-bay selling gift cards doesn't meet any of my requirements.

You hadn't specified any "requirements", you were just asking what you could and couldn't pay for using Bitcoin. BitMit has been around for long enough that they've earned a bit of trust around the community, and like eBay, is a middle-party to exchange goods.

Whenever I need to pay for something that doesn't accept Bitcoin, I just switch them to USD and pay with my debit card (btcpak.com). It takes about 10 minutes, and covers things from your list like water, gas, and utilities. OKPay.com has just started a BTC straight to DebitCard service as well, which would make it even easier to move money in and out of USD.

It's a brand-new market, one that has grown substantially over the course of the last two years. The market for illegal drugs, issues with trust, and hacking of less-than-secure web-sites are all human-related issues; they really don't speak about the strength and potential of Bitcoin.

Anyhow, if you don't want to use it, don't. It's new and that's scary. But simply dismissing it without really taking a look is a shortcoming on your part, not anyone else's.
 
2012-08-17 08:57:46 AM

phraust: Anyhow, if you don't want to use it, don't. It's new and that's scary. But simply dismissing it without really taking a look is a shortcoming on your part, not anyone else's.


Simply assuming I haven't looked into it is just a strawman on your part.

You go have fun spending more money mining bitcoins then they're worth.
 
2012-08-17 04:03:46 PM
Welp, one of bitcoins' largest ponzi schemes is shuttering its doors. It's known to have multiple other ponzis forked off of it. Sure is a stable currency y'all got here. Happy Friday.
s12.postimage.org 

You can see at 6:00 pm where the Bitcoin Savings and Loan closing was announced.

Anyone out there- follow this thread on SomethingAwful if you want a laugh.
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3486823&user i d=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1
 
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