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(The New York Times)   NYPD kills knife-wielding nut in midtown Manhattan; tourists a) panic, b) hide, c) bust out their cameras. Times readers a) whine, b) armchair-quarterback, c) think the cops should have brought the poor dear some chamomile tea   (nytimes.com) divider line 145
    More: Interesting, Hard Rock Cafe, Seventh Avenue, kitchen knife, Bellevue Hospital, tourists, Times Square, knife  
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8736 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Aug 2012 at 10:00 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-12 08:25:43 AM  
Not seeing (c) and I am not reading all the comments to find what I assume is ONE comment.

Plus, the dude was smoking weed. Kinda hard to compete with that for trying to calm someone down.
 
2012-08-12 09:05:03 AM  
There needs to be a d) all of the above for both questions....

I'm not usually a fan of the police & their increasingly militaristic tactics however in this case they showed commendable restraint. You have a maniac who's been pepper sprayed six times & is still running through the crowds swinging the knife at people & ignoring repeated demands to drop the knife & stop. Shooting him was really the only option by that point. They shot him center of mass to stop the threat, that the threat was stopped on a permanent basis was just an unfortunate/fortunate end result.

/although I do question/wonder why no (or little) mention of a taser was made. You'd think that in TS at the very least the cops would have them. Shooting drunk & obnoxious tourists would make for bad press
 
2012-08-12 09:29:30 AM  
Don't know why it takes an uncountable number of shots to take down one guy but otherwise I'd say the NYPD did a great job here to avoid any fatalities.
 
2012-08-12 09:30:45 AM  
Where was Spider-Man when we needed him?! :-(
 
2012-08-12 10:05:29 AM  
Third time this headline meme has been greenlit today. Mods need to a) stop it.
 
2012-08-12 10:07:10 AM  

Recoil Therapy: /although I do question/wonder why no (or little) mention of a taser was made. You'd think that in TS at the very least the cops would have them. Shooting drunk & obnoxious tourists would make for bad press


They used up all the batteries tasing old ladies who didn't respect their authoritah.
 
2012-08-12 10:08:10 AM  

legendary: Don't know why it takes an uncountable number of shots to take down one guy but otherwise I'd say the NYPD did a great job here to avoid any fatalities.


If I understand it correctly, police are trained to bring their target down. Don't point your gun at anything you don't intend to kill, and all that. Since you can't know ahead of time how many shots it will take to do that (on account of things like missing, flesh wounds, someone chemically influenced to have a lower response to pain, etc.) cops fire until the suspect is down.

But I'm not a cop, nor do I play one on TV, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I could be wrong.
 
2012-08-12 10:11:13 AM  
Hey, you know how everytime somebody goes on a killing spree with guns (e.g. a la Colorado batman movie), and then rational people start saying "hey maybe we should ban guns", and then gun-toting NRA nuts are always like "well, why don't you ban knives too, cuz those can kill people..."

Here's a guy who went on a rampage with a knife... aaaaaannndd how many people did he kill before police took him down?
 
2012-08-12 10:11:23 AM  
I have no problems with the guy getting shot. Deadly force was appropriate.

I do wonder though, are police officers actually trained to empty their weapon once they decide to open fire or are they all just twitchy sons of biatches? I suppose conserving ammo isn't all that important when you're faced with a single adversary but I was always taught spastically yanking on a trigger shows a general lack of discipline.
 
2012-08-12 10:13:39 AM  

Kome: legendary: Don't know why it takes an uncountable number of shots to take down one guy but otherwise I'd say the NYPD did a great job here to avoid any fatalities.

If I understand it correctly, police are trained to bring their target down. Don't point your gun at anything you don't intend to kill, and all that. Since you can't know ahead of time how many shots it will take to do that (on account of things like missing, flesh wounds, someone chemically influenced to have a lower response to pain, etc.) cops fire until the suspect is down.

But I'm not a cop, nor do I play one on TV, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I could be wrong.


I admit I had not thought about that.

I realize you weren't replying to me but it sort of answers my question.
 
2012-08-12 10:14:32 AM  
If they had set their phasers to stun, the man would be alive today.

No justice, no peace!

/I smell a lawsuit coming!
 
2012-08-12 10:15:44 AM  
Well duh... the guy was black AND had dreads. You KNOW he was up to something.
 
2012-08-12 10:16:28 AM  
why not Pennyroyal Tea?

assets.rollingstone.com
 
2012-08-12 10:17:29 AM  

legendary: Don't know why it takes an uncountable number of shots to take down one guy


I do, they can't shoot straight. At least this time the bullets were not ricocheting back at them..
 
2012-08-12 10:18:07 AM  

Lor M. Ipsum: Third time this headline meme has been greenlit today. Mods need to a) stop it.


Not their fault, if enough TFers comment on it, it goes green.
Don't blame the game, blame the playas.
 
2012-08-12 10:21:02 AM  

Kome: legendary: Don't know why it takes an uncountable number of shots to take down one guy but otherwise I'd say the NYPD did a great job here to avoid any fatalities.

If I understand it correctly, police are trained to bring their target down. Don't point your gun at anything you don't intend to kill, and all that. Since you can't know ahead of time how many shots it will take to do that (on account of things like missing, flesh wounds, someone chemically influenced to have a lower response to pain, etc.) cops fire until the suspect is down.

But I'm not a cop, nor do I play one on TV, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I could be wrong.


Could be, and I wonder if the "marijuana" wasn't actually another substance or laced with something else.

Hypothetical Imperative: I have no problems with the guy getting shot. Deadly force was appropriate.

I do wonder though, are police officers actually trained to empty their weapon once they decide to open fire or are they all just twitchy sons of biatches? I suppose conserving ammo isn't all that important when you're faced with a single adversary but I was always taught spastically yanking on a trigger shows a general lack of discipline.


Generally speaking, but adrenaline does crazy things to people sometimes.
 
2012-08-12 10:23:33 AM  

Alonjar: Well duh... the guy was black AND had dreads. You KNOW he was up to something.


ya have a monthly newsletter?

:)

 
2012-08-12 10:24:16 AM  
Yeah subby, wouldn't it have been great if all the tourists whipped out their own guns and set up a hail of fire?

Now THAT is Murican.

But the NYT gives ticker-tape parades to rapists.
 
2012-08-12 10:27:08 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: Not seeing (c) and I am not reading all the comments to find what I assume is ONE comment.

Plus, the dude was smoking weed. Kinda hard to compete with that for trying to calm someone down.


While I am no anti-pot advocate, there are plenty of people for whom smoking marijuana is dysphoric. It can cause agitation, paranoia and others along that spectrum.

To summarize: Pot should be legal. But there are plenty of people who shouldn't smoke it.
 
2012-08-12 10:28:07 AM  
I don't care for cops but come on. Do you realize that most cops don't care to shoot anyone?

Oh well, one less crazy person I might have had to interact with.
 
2012-08-12 10:28:44 AM  

legendary: Don't know why it takes an uncountable number of shots to take down one guy but otherwise I'd say the NYPD did a great job here to avoid any fatalities.


According to one of the comments, one video shows/counted 9 shot between two policemen. 4-5 shots each isn't all that unreasonable when their pistols hold 15+.

The police (& anyone who knows what they're doing) never shoot to wound, shoot to kill, or any other 'shoot to __' that you hear. The most common standard is that you shoot to stop the threat & once the threat is stopped then you stop shooting. Pretty much everyone is taught to shoot for the largest target possible which in a human is the chest area. The chest area also has most of the body's vital organs so the chances that getting shot there will stop you permanently is certainly there. Most training that I've seen/heard of advocates two quick shots to center of mass, reevaluate the threat & if he hasn't stopped/gone down do it again. This can all happen within a matter of 2-3 seconds. Two policemen shooting 9 shots makes me think that this is exactly how it went down. With all the cameras recording these days, if it's dramatically different we'll hear about it over the next few days.

Without seeing the video & assuming that the 9 shot count is accurate, it sounds like everything went according to training & at the time of the shooting all other options had been expended (taser question notwithstanding). Some police are trigger happy morons but these two seem to be well trained/under restraint.
 
2012-08-12 10:29:20 AM  

Lor M. Ipsum: Third time this headline meme has been greenlit today. Mods need to a) stop it.


Maybe limit it to once a day or so, because a) it's old, b) and busted, or c) damn.
 
2012-08-12 10:31:08 AM  
I think we've already reached our daily quota of A) B) or C) headlines, admin.

/Must be that "special" fellow who greenlights all day wrestling threads in the Sports tab
//lol...
 
2012-08-12 10:32:16 AM  
media.avclub.com

I'm not a nut! I'm just not user-friendly!!
 
2012-08-12 10:32:44 AM  

Mangoose: While I am no anti-pot advocate, there are plenty of people for whom smoking marijuana is dysphoric. It can cause agitation, paranoia and others along that spectrum.

To summarize: Pot should be legal. But there are plenty of people who shouldn't smoke it.



True. Just like booze.
 
2012-08-12 10:32:53 AM  

Lor M. Ipsum: Third time this headline meme has been greenlit today. Mods need to a) stop it.


I thought that "c)" was always the correct answer.
 
2012-08-12 10:34:37 AM  
*This* is what they're supposed to user tasers for. They had the guy cornered. Instead they save their tasers for people who just need to be talked down.
 
2012-08-12 10:38:32 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: Not seeing (c) and I am not reading all the comments to find what I assume is ONE comment.

Plus, the dude was smoking weed. Kinda hard to compete with that for trying to calm someone down.


Stormfront.
 
2012-08-12 10:39:31 AM  

Captain Steroid: Where was Spider-Man when we needed him?! :-(


The REAL Spiderman was at the Foxwoods Theater on 42nd and 7th.

The. counterfeit Spiderrman is usually on 47th and Broadway hanging with the Naked Cowboy and bogus Elmo.
 
2012-08-12 10:39:59 AM  

D_Evans45: Mangoose: While I am no anti-pot advocate, there are plenty of people for whom smoking marijuana is dysphoric. It can cause agitation, paranoia and others along that spectrum.

To summarize: Pot should be legal. But there are plenty of people who shouldn't smoke it.


True. Just like booze.


Just like anything. There are people that shouldn't eat chocolate because it ends up on a discount flight to Pennsylvania and a back alley chocolate syrup bathhouse.
 
2012-08-12 10:40:09 AM  
Out-of-towners on a red double-decker tourist bus gawked at the unfolding drama, a bit more of the New York experience than they had bargained for. Nervous onlookers peered out from restaurant and shop windows, the flashing lights of Times Square lending a bizarre atmosphere, which grew even wilder as a crowd gathered, attracted by the commotion. And that's how it goes up in NYC fo' y'all!
 
2012-08-12 10:42:15 AM  

Recoil Therapy: There needs to be a d) all of the above for both questions....

I'm not usually a fan of the police & their increasingly militaristic tactics however in this case they showed commendable restraint. You have a maniac who's been pepper sprayed six times & is still running through the crowds swinging the knife at people & ignoring repeated demands to drop the knife & stop. Shooting him was really the only option by that point. They shot him center of mass to stop the threat, that the threat was stopped on a permanent basis was just an unfortunate/fortunate end result.

/although I do question/wonder why no (or little) mention of a taser was made. You'd think that in TS at the very least the cops would have them. Shooting drunk & obnoxious tourists would make for bad press


Some years ago in Des Moines, police responded to a call of a guy in the street with a huge butcher knife, threatening people. Repeated demands that he put the knife down were ignored and then the guy charged one officer, knocked him down and proceeded to stab him multiple times in the chest. The officer drew his gun and shot him dead right there, while the guy was stabbing him.

It later turned out that the guy was schizo and off his meds. The day or so after, the guy's mother was on the news wailing about how they didn't have to shoot him, he was a good boy, all the usual crap. I'm sorry, but the cop did the right thing. His vest saved him from serious injury but wasn't going to save him much longer. Blowing the crazy guy away did.
 
2012-08-12 10:43:09 AM  

Recoil Therapy: There needs to be a d) all of the above for both questions....

I'm not usually a fan of the police & their increasingly militaristic tactics however in this case they showed commendable restraint. You have a maniac who's been pepper sprayed six times & is still running through the crowds swinging the knife at people & ignoring repeated demands to drop the knife & stop. Shooting him was really the only option by that point. They shot him center of mass to stop the threat, that the threat was stopped on a permanent basis was just an unfortunate/fortunate end result.

/although I do question/wonder why no (or little) mention of a taser was made. You'd think that in TS at the very least the cops would have them. Shooting drunk & obnoxious tourists would make for bad press


If they have pepper spray on their belt, they are prohibited from carrying a taser. Too much of a risk of explosion.
 
2012-08-12 10:45:07 AM  

Cybernetic: Lor M. Ipsum: Third time this headline meme has been greenlit today. Mods need to a) stop it.
I thought that "c)" was always the correct answer.


a)stop it, b) stop it, c) STOP IT!
 
2012-08-12 10:52:02 AM  

Mangoose: PC LOAD LETTER: Not seeing (c) and I am not reading all the comments to find what I assume is ONE comment.

Plus, the dude was smoking weed. Kinda hard to compete with that for trying to calm someone down.

While I am no anti-pot advocate, there are plenty of people for whom smoking marijuana is dysphoric. It can cause agitation, paranoia and others along that spectrum.

To summarize: Pot should be legal. But there are plenty of people who shouldn't smoke it.


OMG. Marijuana is the Pax!

"The G-23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate that we added to the air processors. It was supposed to calm the population, weed out aggression. Well, it works. The people here stopped fighting. And then they stopped everything else. They stopped going to work, they stopped breeding, talking, eating. There's 30 million people here, and they all just let themselves die. About a tenth of a percent of the population had the opposite reaction to the Pax. Their aggressor response increased beyond madness. They have become... well they've killed most of us... and not just killed they've done things..."
 
2012-08-12 10:52:35 AM  
I have no sympathy for crazy guy but this brings up a bigger question. Why do cops have guns in the first place? Why is killing people even an option for "law enforcement"?

Cops have tasers, and pepper spray, and shotguns with beanbags, and batons, why do they need guns that shoot real bullets?
 
2012-08-12 10:52:36 AM  

cassanovascotian: Hey, you know how everytime somebody goes on a killing spree with guns (e.g. a la Colorado batman movie), and then rational people start saying "hey maybe we should ban guns", and then gun-toting NRA nuts are always like "well, why don't you ban knives too, cuz those can kill people..."

Here's a guy who went on a rampage with a knife... aaaaaannndd how many people did he kill before police took him down?


This wasn't a knife rampage, this was suicide by cop.
Didn't he know NYC is a smoke free zone? And he just happened to have a blue headband and kitchen knife in his pocket?
Some people will do anything to get on Fark...
 
2012-08-12 10:52:38 AM  

cassanovascotian: Hey, you know how everytime somebody goes on a killing spree with guns (e.g. a la Colorado batman movie), and then rational people start saying "hey maybe we should ban guns", and then gun-toting NRA nuts are always like "well, why don't you ban knives too, cuz those can kill people..."

Here's a guy who went on a rampage with a knife... aaaaaannndd how many people did he kill before police took him down?


Many times the police apprehend (shoot or arrest) a person wielding a firearm before that person shoots anybody. But lets cheery pick one incident from both sides to make your argument.

You also fail by linking a killing spree (your own words) to a guy with a knife.
 
2012-08-12 10:55:30 AM  

Dialectic: Out-of-towners on a red double-decker tourist bus gawked at the unfolding drama, a bit more of the New York experience than they had bargained for. Nervous onlookers peered out from restaurant and shop windows, the flashing lights of Times Square lending a bizarre atmosphere, which grew even wilder as a crowd gathered, attracted by the commotion. And that's how it goes up in NYC fo' y'all!


Me and my HS friends used to "mug" each other in front of tour busses in Times Square all the time. It worked pretty well back In the days when it really was dangerous to go there. We wanted the tourists to feel they were getting the full NY experience. Good times
 
2012-08-12 10:55:36 AM  

RembrandtQEinstein: Why do cops have guns in the first place? Why is killing people even an option for "law enforcement"?


To answer your question, HURRRRR DURRRRRR.
 
2012-08-12 11:01:15 AM  
Meh, its times square, who cares if a few tourists get stabbed - not like there is a shortage of them.
 
2012-08-12 11:02:01 AM  

BGates: You also fail by linking a killing spree (your own words) to a guy with a knife


jennyfisher.org

Try again: "...everytime somebody goes on a killing spree with guns...Here's a guy who went on a rampage with a knife."

" But lets cheery pick one incident from both sides to make your argument."

You mean "cherry pick"?, nah how about let's just take the overwhelming majority of stories we read about in the news.
 
2012-08-12 11:04:56 AM  
As the man fled, weaving


Black people are so silly, I thought that was his real hair!
 
2012-08-12 11:06:09 AM  
It only takes 1.5 seconds for an assailant to advance 21 ft. The Tueller Drill (pops), for those who wonder why they drew their firearms as soon as he pulled a knife.
 
2012-08-12 11:09:03 AM  

cassanovascotian: Hey, you know how everytime somebody goes on a killing spree with guns (e.g. a la Colorado batman movie), and then rational people start saying "hey maybe we should ban guns", and then gun-toting NRA nuts are always like "well, why don't you ban knives too, cuz those can kill people..."

Here's a guy who went on a rampage with a knife... aaaaaannndd how many people did he kill before police took him down?



We should also ban foreign hippies before they kill any American brain cells.
 
2012-08-12 11:10:48 AM  

Kurmudgeon: if enough TFers comment on it, it goes green.


No. That is not a factual statement.
 
2012-08-12 11:10:57 AM  
After watching the video and counting 8-9 shots I think it's safe to say that perhaps it was a little overkill shooting that many bullets, but then again when has the NYPD ever shown restraint. These cops do their job and for the most part whenever there are dangerous weapons involved they shoot first and ask questions later.

Don't know the suspect's medical history but from the looks of things that situation could have gone a myriad of ways, but they way I look at it the cops probably killed him because they feared a possible hostage situation.
 
2012-08-12 11:16:37 AM  
I generally try not to comment in police threads because I always get hit with "you're a pig- fark you"-style comments but if I may re: this incident-

Yes, we are trained to kill what we aim at. If you remove your weapon from its holster, aim it at another human being and actually place your index finger inside the trigger guard, things have generally gotten to a state of total FUBAR. The type of incident can vary greatly and yes, our reactions can also vary somewhat, but 9 times out of 10, the officer feels that there is no other option at that point.
There are exceptions, but 99.9% of us want shooting someone to the the LAST resort. The psychological impact must be devestating.
The opinion that we're all trigger-happy sociopaths just waiting for that golden moment to shoot someone is total uninformed horseshiat.
 
2012-08-12 11:18:06 AM  
I hate to say this, and it's awful when something like this happens - but if I am somewhere, and have a gun for some reason, and some crazy guy starts menacing me and others with a knife, I'm likely to try to get him to drop it - and pretty likely to shoot if he doesn't. And I'm not a cop - just a guy.
 
2012-08-12 11:19:12 AM  

jayphat: Recoil Therapy: There needs to be a d) all of the above for both questions....

I'm not usually a fan of the police & their increasingly militaristic tactics however in this case they showed commendable restraint. You have a maniac who's been pepper sprayed six times & is still running through the crowds swinging the knife at people & ignoring repeated demands to drop the knife & stop. Shooting him was really the only option by that point. They shot him center of mass to stop the threat, that the threat was stopped on a permanent basis was just an unfortunate/fortunate end result.

/although I do question/wonder why no (or little) mention of a taser was made. You'd think that in TS at the very least the cops would have them. Shooting drunk & obnoxious tourists would make for bad press

If they have pepper spray on their belt, they are prohibited from carrying a taser. Too much of a risk of explosion.



watching too much CSI i guess.
 
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