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(New Scientist)   Woman's missing fingers grow back in phantom form   (newscientist.com) divider line 120
    More: Cool, teachers, University of London, artificial limb  
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21855 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Aug 2012 at 10:32 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



120 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-08-10 08:49:41 PM
The hand is quicker than the eye

WTF, is this all in this lady's head? What if she's just BSing the researchers? How did they measure the "change in finger/thumb size?



Phantom hand job jokes?
 
2012-08-10 08:52:15 PM
Very cool find subby...
I wonder if there are any plans for one of those 'bionic hands' now that she's capable of working more than a Simpson's hand...
 
2012-08-10 09:00:33 PM

sno man: Very cool find subby...
I wonder if there are any plans for one of those 'bionic hands' now that she's capable of working more than a Simpson's hand...


You know what's really weird? They've discovered that people with amputated hand (and the phantom pain associated with the amputated hand) can make their pain go away if they trick their brain into thinking that their hand is still there.

For example, if you sit down at a table with your unamputated arm on the table facing a mirror and you look at the mirror image of the unamputated arm so that the mirror image is where your amputated hand should be, then your pain will start to subside for a while.

Once human-like prosthesis becomes possible, I'd imagine it'd take care of most phantom pain issues.
 
2012-08-10 09:22:51 PM

RexTalionis: sno man: Very cool find subby...
I wonder if there are any plans for one of those 'bionic hands' now that she's capable of working more than a Simpson's hand...

You know what's really weird? They've discovered that people with amputated hand (and the phantom pain associated with the amputated hand) can make their pain go away if they trick their brain into thinking that their hand is still there.

For example, if you sit down at a table with your unamputated arm on the table facing a mirror and you look at the mirror image of the unamputated arm so that the mirror image is where your amputated hand should be, then your pain will start to subside for a while.

Once human-like prosthesis becomes possible, I'd imagine it'd take care of most phantom pain issues.


The mirror table was in play in this story... albeit for the filling out the stubby phantom thumb and finger she never had...
still very cool...
 
2012-08-10 10:32:52 PM
Mind wins.
 
2012-08-10 10:35:31 PM
i830.photobucket.com

Would like to know more, but doesn't want to give up his powers.
 
2012-08-10 10:36:25 PM
yes but can you masturbate with them
 
2012-08-10 10:37:08 PM
 
2012-08-10 10:37:34 PM

rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them


Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P
 
2012-08-10 10:39:41 PM

cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P


ound...
 
2012-08-10 10:40:30 PM

Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...


Name the consonant.
 
2012-08-10 10:41:25 PM

RexTalionis: sno man: Very cool find subby...
I wonder if there are any plans for one of those 'bionic hands' now that she's capable of working more than a Simpson's hand...

You know what's really weird? They've discovered that people with amputated hand (and the phantom pain associated with the amputated hand) can make their pain go away if they trick their brain into thinking that their hand is still there.

For example, if you sit down at a table with your unamputated arm on the table facing a mirror and you look at the mirror image of the unamputated arm so that the mirror image is where your amputated hand should be, then your pain will start to subside for a while.

Once human-like prosthesis becomes possible, I'd imagine it'd take care of most phantom pain issues.


I heard something similar on NOVA (or a similar show) 10-15 years ago. The woman lost her hand, but in her mind she had her fingers clenched in such a way that her finger nails were jamming into her hand causing a lot of pain. The used a similar mirror box to allow her to open the non-existent hand to stop the pain.
 
2012-08-10 10:42:46 PM

Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.


Uhhhh... is it "S"?
 
2012-08-10 10:43:40 PM

cowgirl toffee: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

Uhhhh... is it "S"?


Yes?
 
2012-08-10 10:44:23 PM

Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

Uhhhh... is it "S"?

Yes?


I win!
 
2012-08-10 10:51:31 PM

cowgirl toffee: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

Uhhhh... is it "S"?

Yes?

I win!


F
 
2012-08-10 10:51:48 PM

grinding_journalist: [i830.photobucket.com image 250x269]


This is why I came here.
 
2012-08-10 10:52:54 PM

Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.


conf...ound

doin it wrong
 
2012-08-10 10:52:59 PM

libranoelrose: cowgirl toffee: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: ....

F


>:(
 
2012-08-10 10:55:05 PM

W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

conf...ound

doin it wrong


*apostrophe fail*
 
2012-08-10 10:55:42 PM

piltdown: "Why won't God heal amputees?"


Because healing people in a way that is indistinguishable from modern medicine is the true test of omnipotence
 
2012-08-10 10:56:17 PM

Indubitably: W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

conf...ound

doin it wrong

*apostrophe fail*


/kicks rock.
 
2012-08-10 10:56:38 PM
Was that article abut some ladies imaginary hand, or did I stop reading too early?
 
2012-08-10 10:58:11 PM
retrobookshop.com
Pppphhhhhttttt. Amateur.
 
2012-08-10 10:58:17 PM
If I watch The Phantom Menace through one of these table mirrors, will it take away my pain?
 
2012-08-10 10:58:49 PM

libranoelrose: cowgirl toffee: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

Uhhhh... is it "S"?

Yes?

I win!

F


For the last decade(s) plus, assman.

You've always known where I am.

Do you know where you are?

;)
 
2012-08-10 10:59:02 PM

grinding_journalist: [i830.photobucket.com image 250x269]

Would like to know more, but doesn't want to give up his powers.


Dude better have the power of autofellatio.
 
2012-08-10 10:59:37 PM
So, if you are a woman "stuck in a man's body," (or vice versa) is the problem that your mind is mapping phantom body parts?
 
2012-08-10 11:01:07 PM

W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

conf...ound

doin it wrong

*apostrophe fail*

/kicks rock.


Thank you.

*bow*
 
2012-08-10 11:03:24 PM

Indubitably: libranoelrose: cowgirl toffee: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

Uhhhh... is it "S"?

Yes?

I win!

F

For the last decade(s) plus, assman.

You've always known where I am.

Do you know where you are?

;)


1963?
 
2012-08-10 11:03:24 PM
Wait, so she's controlling a shadow of an imaginary hand with her mind? What did I just read?
 
2012-08-10 11:03:26 PM
What's really amazing is that her imaginary hand actually casts a real shadow!!! I know because i saw the photo!!
 
2012-08-10 11:03:39 PM

Tyrosine: grinding_journalist: [i830.photobucket.com image 250x269]

Would like to know more, but doesn't want to give up his powers.

Dude better have the power of autofellatio.


Or what?

Will you strike him with Hellfire missiles or bullets?

You are an idiot.

Textbook.

Subtext says wut?
 
2012-08-10 11:04:36 PM
I call bullshiat. The brain is just trying to match up the other hand.
 
2012-08-10 11:04:37 PM

libranoelrose: Indubitably: libranoelrose: cowgirl toffee: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

Uhhhh... is it "S"?

Yes?

I win!

F

For the last decade(s) plus, assman.

You've always known where I am.

Do you know where you are?

;)

1963?


P.S. Mistake made.
 
2012-08-10 11:04:58 PM
i291.photobucket.com

Do you have any idea how much that STINGS??!?!
 
2012-08-10 11:05:13 PM
Uh. Not news. This shiat happens all the time. Ask anyone with a missing limb or digits or whatever, chances are they've experienced "Phantom Limb Syndrome" in some way or another.
 
2012-08-10 11:05:14 PM

Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.


reach around.

wait,isn't that 1 word.
 
2012-08-10 11:05:41 PM
profmondo.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-08-10 11:06:31 PM

W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

reach around.

wait,isn't that 1 word.


And that isn't a consonant, either.
 
2012-08-10 11:06:50 PM

grinding_journalist: [i830.photobucket.com image 250x269]

Would like to know more, but doesn't want to give up his powers.


These girls would like to learn that trick...
s14.postimage.org
 
2012-08-10 11:06:52 PM

W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

reach around.

wait,isn't that 1 word.


Use-the-hyphen.
 
2012-08-10 11:10:02 PM

RexTalionis: sno man: Very cool find subby...
I wonder if there are any plans for one of those 'bionic hands' now that she's capable of working more than a Simpson's hand...

You know what's really weird? They've discovered that people with amputated hand (and the phantom pain associated with the amputated hand) can make their pain go away if they trick their brain into thinking that their hand is still there.

For example, if you sit down at a table with your unamputated arm on the table facing a mirror and you look at the mirror image of the unamputated arm so that the mirror image is where your amputated hand should be, then your pain will start to subside for a while.

Once human-like prosthesis becomes possible, I'd imagine it'd take care of most phantom pain issues.


That's going to be so farking cool, and I can totally see this happening. Sorry grammars.
Anyway, anything to alleviate pain. I have chronic pain issues, and I'd rather not take so much meds as I do now. And, my Doc tells me I really don't take that much in comparison to other patients-and I believe him.
But, bleah. Pain sucks. Understanding our neurology will unlock more doors in the areas of pain management and mental health issues. Depression especially, IMHO.
I'm learning how to navigate through and find what's good for me, etc. But pain that you can't handle- whether you're Rambo or the most giantest pussy ever- is something we should strive to eliminate. It's one form of suffering we can help.

/I love technology
//Future Sailor
 
2012-08-10 11:10:05 PM

BackAssward: grinding_journalist: [i830.photobucket.com image 250x269]

Would like to know more, but doesn't want to give up his powers.

These girls would like to learn that trick...
[s14.postimage.org image 160x180]


I'm sure one of them doesn't care. :P
 
2012-08-10 11:11:28 PM

Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.


Goin' downtound.

/final answer,INDUBE
 
2012-08-10 11:11:29 PM

piltdown: "Why won't God heal amputees?"


I guess you're assuming that the lame and lepers that Christ healed had all their limbs.
Because lepers never lost anything back then, just looked bumpy.
Nice troll though, an old one but still.....
 
2012-08-10 11:12:26 PM

RogermcAllen: I heard something similar on NOVA (or a similar show) 10-15 years ago. The woman lost her hand, but in her mind she had her fingers clenched in such a way that her finger nails were jamming into her hand causing a lot of pain. The used a similar mirror box to allow her to open the non-existent hand to stop the pain.


Relevant, but not-so-C-SB:

We saw a patient in clinic this morning who actually had phantom limb- we did a BKA on him about a month ago, and before the surgery, he'd been having arthritic pain in his foot. Even with the foot gone, he said he'd wake up in the middle of the night and his now non-existent foot would be "killing him". We fixed it by doing the mirror box thing, but we had him put his feet in a tub of water, so he could see that there couldn't possibly be the sensation of water on his "foot" that wasn't there. It was like we flipped a switch- by the end of the clinic visit, he said he couldn't feel his foot anymore with a big smile...which in about 3 seconds went away, turned into a frown, and this 70+ yr old man just lost it, and started crying, like he'd *just* realized it wasn't there anymore. His wife started crying too; I had to get the hell outta there. Goddamn, watching old people (esp. "tough" old men) cry...I just can't do it. Dude was a combat Marine for chrissakes.

Tyrosine: Dude better have the power of autofellatio.


That would still be a better power than what Brickfrog has.
 
2012-08-10 11:18:33 PM

W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

Goin' downtound.

/final answer,INDUBE


/pound
 
2012-08-10 11:18:58 PM

W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

Goin' downtound.

/final answer,INDUBE


Still not a consonant; do you have difficulty with directives?
 
2012-08-10 11:19:53 PM

rmify: W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

Goin' downtound.

/final answer,INDUBE

/pound


It could be mound.
 
2012-08-10 11:20:12 PM

Indubitably: W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

reach around.

wait,isn't that 1 word.

And that isn't a consonant, either.


Relax bro,just chillin'.Sorry.Chilling.Brother.

/If I almost made you're head explode,sorry
 
2012-08-10 11:22:01 PM

rmify: W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

Goin' downtound.

/final answer,INDUBE

/pound


You too.

That'd be "P," no?

Here was the thing: name a consonant that seriously "ounds"

You failed multiply.

;)
 
2012-08-10 11:22:35 PM
They should just implant lizard DNA into the stumps of amputees and allow them to grow actual limbs back instead of hooking them up to all sorts of electrodes and doing experiments on them
 
2012-08-10 11:23:23 PM

cowgirl toffee: rmify: W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

Goin' downtound.

/final answer,INDUBE

/pound

It could be mound.


Thank you for being creative with the limited number of consonants...
 
2012-08-10 11:24:30 PM

W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

reach around.

wait,isn't that 1 word.

And that isn't a consonant, either.

Relax bro,just chillin'.Sorry.Chilling.Brother.

/If I almost made you're head explode,sorry


*space*
 
2012-08-10 11:24:51 PM

Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: ....

Thank you for being creative with the limited number of consonants...


Well... at least I did not get a "F" this time. :P
 
2012-08-10 11:25:15 PM

Indubitably: W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

Goin' downtound.

/final answer,INDUBE

Still not a consonant; do you have difficulty with directives?


Mmmmmm....Yes.....Indubitably...

/
 
2012-08-10 11:26:16 PM
ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2012-08-10 11:26:37 PM

cowgirl toffee: rmify: W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

Goin' downtound.

/final answer,INDUBE

/pound

It could be mound.


/astound
 
2012-08-10 11:28:48 PM

Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: ...

Thank you for being creative with the limited number of consonants...


Does "Y" count as a consonant in this contest?
 
2012-08-10 11:29:30 PM
Here was the thing: name a consonant that seriously "ounds"

You failed multiply.

;)

FU ?
darn still not quite right
=dunce
 
2012-08-10 11:33:59 PM

Ambitwistor: [ecx.images-amazon.com image 300x300]


Came here for this.

Satisfied.

(Niven was my first adult SF. He's still great.)
 
2012-08-10 11:34:20 PM

rmify: cowgirl toffee: rmify: W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

Goin' downtound.

/final answer,INDUBE

/pound

It could be mound.

/astound


reach around?
 
2012-08-10 11:37:50 PM
first she was born missing fingers
then she gets the hand amputated

hate to see what happens to the phantom hand
 
2012-08-10 11:37:58 PM

Rustblade: Uh. Not news. This shiat happens all the time. Ask anyone with a missing limb or digits or whatever, chances are they've experienced "Phantom Limb Syndrome" in some way or another.


Read the story-2 digits she wasn't born with became phantom after hand amputation
 
2012-08-10 11:38:35 PM
So,

I am less ignored than advertised?

;)
 
2012-08-10 11:45:35 PM
UCTFFIA
 
2012-08-10 11:47:41 PM

Indubitably: So,

I am less ignored than advertised?

;)


Big fan.

/I am sorry

//bowed
 
2012-08-10 11:48:56 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: They should just implant lizard DNA into the stumps of amputees and allow them to grow actual limbs back instead of hooking them up to all sorts of electrodes and doing experiments on them


Actually, they're working on it. Not directly with lizard DNA, though. Something about a powder that tricks the cells into growing a new appendage.

There was an article a ways back about the reason we can't regenerate, and how they were able to grow a guy a new thumb. Basically, while your body does know what it is supposed to be shaped like, at some point of loss the "grow into this shape" directive is overridden by the "heal the wound shut as quickly as possible" directive. We've meta-evolved past the need to minimize physical downtime, so now we're working on ways to get around what used to be a good idea.

Thinking about it, i wonder if this is why we develop scars, it's just the skin growing back together into the wrong spot.
 
2012-08-10 11:50:05 PM
She started off missing two fingers.

She lost the hand in a car wreck.

If she had a liability claim against someone else would she only be eligible for 3/5 of the usual settlement for losing a hand.
 
2012-08-10 11:55:19 PM

W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: So,

I am less ignored than advertised?

;)

Big fan.

/I am sorry

//bowed


Thank you, friend.

I read you too.

We rule.

;)
 
2012-08-10 11:58:44 PM
Huh, havent read enough Niven, hadnt heard of this Gil Hamilton. Betting hes the reason Phantom Limbs name is Hamilton Phantomos.
 
2012-08-11 12:17:57 AM

grinding_journalist: We saw a patient in clinic this morning who actually had phantom limb- we did a BKA on him about a month ago, and before the surgery, he'd been having arthritic pain in his foot. Even with the foot gone, he said he'd wake up in the middle of the night and his now non-existent foot would be "killing him". We fixed it by doing the mirror box thing, but we had him put his feet in a tub of water, so he could see that there couldn't possibly be the sensation of water on his "foot" that wasn't there. It was like we flipped a switch- by the end of the clinic visit, he said he couldn't feel his foot anymore with a big smile...which in about 3 seconds went away, turned into a frown, and this 70+ yr old man just lost it, and started crying, like he'd *just* realized it wasn't there anymore. His wife started crying too; I had to get the hell outta there. Goddamn, watching old people (esp. "tough" old men) cry...I just can't do it. Dude was a combat Marine for chrissakes.


Ow. Yes, a tough old man crying is not something easy to watch.

My first thought though was Felix Gaeta's final words: "It stopped."
 
2012-08-11 12:18:04 AM

grinding_journalist: [i830.photobucket.com image 250x269]

Would like to know more, but doesn't want to give up his powers.


Came for this, leaving satisfied.

/poor Billy Quizboy
 
2012-08-11 12:25:49 AM

RogermcAllen: RexTalionis: sno man: Very cool find subby...
I wonder if there are any plans for one of those 'bionic hands' now that she's capable of working more than a Simpson's hand...

You know what's really weird? They've discovered that people with amputated hand (and the phantom pain associated with the amputated hand) can make their pain go away if they trick their brain into thinking that their hand is still there.

For example, if you sit down at a table with your unamputated arm on the table facing a mirror and you look at the mirror image of the unamputated arm so that the mirror image is where your amputated hand should be, then your pain will start to subside for a while.

Once human-like prosthesis becomes possible, I'd imagine it'd take care of most phantom pain issues.

I heard something similar on NOVA (or a similar show) 10-15 years ago. The woman lost her hand, but in her mind she had her fingers clenched in such a way that her finger nails were jamming into her hand causing a lot of pain. The used a similar mirror box to allow her to open the non-existent hand to stop the pain.


It was a feedback loop in the brain. It kept trying to send signals to a limb that wasn't there, and so it kept ramping up the intensity to get a response. The mirror was to trick the brain into thinking it got that response.
 
2012-08-11 12:49:00 AM
img32.imageshack.us

Biatch stole my legs.
 
2012-08-11 12:50:46 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: They should just implant lizard DNA into the stumps of amputees and allow them to grow actual limbs back instead of hooking them up to all sorts of electrodes and doing experiments on them


He likes the way you think.

upload.wikimedia.org

/hot
 
2012-08-11 01:02:04 AM
You know shiat...And you show it every day.
 
2012-08-11 01:02:31 AM
Yeah, cool, but can her phantom digits tickle my prostate?
 
2012-08-11 01:04:44 AM

RogermcAllen: RexTalionis: sno man: Very cool find subby...
I wonder if there are any plans for one of those 'bionic hands' now that she's capable of working more than a Simpson's hand...

You know what's really weird? They've discovered that people with amputated hand (and the phantom pain associated with the amputated hand) can make their pain go away if they trick their brain into thinking that their hand is still there.

For example, if you sit down at a table with your unamputated arm on the table facing a mirror and you look at the mirror image of the unamputated arm so that the mirror image is where your amputated hand should be, then your pain will start to subside for a while.

Once human-like prosthesis becomes possible, I'd imagine it'd take care of most phantom pain issues.

I heard something similar on NOVA (or a similar show) 10-15 years ago. The woman lost her hand, but in her mind she had her fingers clenched in such a way that her finger nails were jamming into her hand causing a lot of pain. The used a similar mirror box to allow her to open the non-existent hand to stop the pain.


It was the "House" episode with James Earl Jones.
 
2012-08-11 01:35:16 AM

cowgirl toffee: W.C.fields forever: Indubitably: Indubitably: cowgirl toffee: rmify: yes but can you masturbate with them

Only if she can find the phantom G-spot. :P

ound...

Name the consonant.

reach around.

wait,isn't that 1 word.

Use-the-hyphen.


the artifical hyphen?
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/466019961/100_Effective_Artificial_ H ymen_joan_of.html

?
 
2012-08-11 01:55:14 AM

IXI Jim IXI: [retrobookshop.com image 300x486]
Pppphhhhhttttt. Amateur.


Came here for this. Leaving satisfied.
 
2012-08-11 02:00:45 AM

whyRpeoplesostupid: WTF, is this all in this lady's head? What if she's just BSing the researchers? How did they measure the "change in finger/thumb size?


I suspect that this is largely in the woman's head and can only work with someone that still has one hand with 5 fingers. The mirrors trick the patient into using their good hand as if it were the amputated limb, they get to learn motor skills of a limb that doesn't exist by using a limb that does. She had her 3 fingered hand for 18 years before it was gone (so it did have motor function), I'm wondering if her brain started to mirroring the properties of her active arm after the other went missing.

read the journal reference from this article.

"These two phantom digits were initially half normal size, however, more than three decades later, with mirror visual feedback treatment, she was able to elongate them to normal length."

It took her more than 30 years to work her phantom hand with mirror tricks.

/I'd be interested in the results of this study on individuals born with only one arm and see if their brains can even comprehend having another one.
 
2012-08-11 02:05:01 AM

Tenatra: /I'd be interested in the results of this study on individuals born with only one arm and see if their brains can even comprehend having another one.


Or more to the point, seeing if you could induce a third arm in healthy humans.
 
2012-08-11 02:07:02 AM
TFA says that the brain has intrinsic wiring for the shape of our body.

'They' say we only use a small portion of our brain power.

Wonder what the rest of the brain is wired for?
 
2012-08-11 02:08:13 AM

doglover: Or more to the point, seeing if you could induce a third arm in healthy humans.


Yes! As I was typing that I thought of becoming Goro :)
 
2012-08-11 02:33:10 AM

kareninsf: Rustblade: Uh. Not news. This shiat happens all the time. Ask anyone with a missing limb or digits or whatever, chances are they've experienced "Phantom Limb Syndrome" in some way or another.

Read the story-2 digits she wasn't born with became phantom after hand amputation


The article kind of screwed it over though(go figure a news article on science gets it wrong or is misleading). Pardon the layman understanding on some of what follows, the concept is accurate if some of the mechanics are wrong. (And you may already know the following, but it was one of the better on topic posts to reply to)

First off, the nerves for those "missing" fingers were always there.

Secondly, the way hands work, there aren't actually enough nerves to go around, so to speak.(that bit about the not enough nerves is where the disclaimer comes in, my recollection is hazy here and I'm too lazy to look up the stuff about muscle memory, but it's a sort of dynamic interaction)
Hold your hand up and just move one finger, the others will move slightly, almost as if the same nerves carry different signals to the areas, and the muscles interpret those signals in different ways.

The nerve endings, before the accident, were acclimated to their environment and felt normal. When they were severed, worlds of new information ran up from them and the brain had to re-acclimate to the input from ALL of the nerve endings. Not having a pattern to go on, the brain relied on external stimuli, the other hand(and eventually the mirror box which really is just maximizing the efficiency) to aid mapping those inputs, which resulted in having the same shape hand as the remaining one.

Medically there is nothing shocking about the (non)story, but the author was misleading due to ignorance and lack of any real intellect to speak of(typical for typical science links on fark).

It's not about the brain knowing what body imagery should have been, it's about the brain interpreting signals and how it learns to do that.

____

OK, I went to the wiki on phantom limb(curiosity got the better of my laziness), and this story is already there...and the doctors involved also jump to the conclusion, so maybe the author isn't completely to blame.

It does however, contradict the rest of the wiki which details somewhat how the brain re-organizes itself, pointedly, the first pragraph under this link-mark.
In 2009 Lorimer Moseley and Peter Brugger carried out an experiment in which they encouraged seven arm amputees to use visual imagery to contort their phantom limbs into impossible configurations. Four of the seven subjects succeeded in performing impossible movements of the phantom limb. This experiment suggests that the subjects had modified the neural representation of their phantom limbs and generated the motor commands needed to execute impossible movements in the absence of feedback from the body.[14] The authors stated that:"In fact, this finding extends our understanding of the brain's plasticity because it is evidence that profound changes in the mental representation of the body can be induced purely by internal brain mechanisms--the brain truly does change itself."

It's known that the brain learns such things(ie motor skills) that take years to develop and even more time on top of that when a change is presented) It's why growing children are clumsy, and fresh amputees have a hard time moving about but become accustomed and comfortable later.

Why jump to the conclusion that the brain is hardwired with a blueprint? If it were hardwired, the phantom fingers would have been the correct size.
No, it attempted to self-teach the new inputs into something, anything, recognizable, and did a fair job of it, for not getting formal training via the mirror box.

That's what phantom pain is thought to be, not an actual problem with the nerve(as in the past), but the way the brain decided to map incoming information, some phantom pain is just a huge error in that process, and why the mirror box can help greatly in relieving that pain, because it helps the brain in smoothly interpreting that information.

It's always a bit of a let down to see supposed men of science jump to such conclusions, when there is a simpler and demonstrable explanation already on the books.
 
2012-08-11 02:40:40 AM
Just an idea: Miracle Powder Regrows Fingers, Now Thigh Muscle for Marine Link

What if we tried to 'regrow' her missing digits? If her brain thinks they're still there...well.
 
2012-08-11 02:41:01 AM

Biff Spiffy: 'They' say we only use a small portion of our brain power.


For some reason I thought this was an urban legend
 
2012-08-11 02:43:50 AM

Tenatra: It took her more than 30 years to work her phantom hand with mirror tricks.


From the wiki:

After a car crash at the age of 18, the woman's deformed hand was amputated, which gave rise to feelings of a phantom hand. The phantom hand was experienced, however, as having all five fingers (although some of the digits were foreshortened). 35 years after her accident, the woman was referred for treatment after her phantom hand had become unbearably painful. McGeoch and Ramachandran trained R.N. using mirror box visual feedback, for 30 minutes a day, in which the reflection of her healthy left-hand was seen as superimposed onto where she felt her phantom right hand to be. After two weeks she was able to move her phantom fingers and was relieved of pain.

The mirror box was not in use for 30 years. It wasn't used until 35 years after the accident.
Your link is written by the doctors I mention in my last post as jumping to conclusions. Me thinks they're trying to do their career a favor by having found something new, even if it doesn't stand up to a cursory glance.

Tenatra: I suspect that this is largely in the woman's head and can only work with someone that still has one hand with 5 fingers. The mirrors trick the patient into using their good hand as if it were the amputated limb, they get to learn motor skills of a limb that doesn't exist by using a limb that does.


Pretty much spot on.
She learned well enough on her own in short order, but the box enabled precision.

Biff Spiffy: 'They' say we only use a small portion of our brain power.

Wonder what the rest of the brain is wired for?


Thinking about sex, food, and processing to search for faces and voices in environments with noisy backgrounds.
 
2012-08-11 02:46:25 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: Biff Spiffy: 'They' say we only use a small portion of our brain power.

For some reason I thought this was an urban legend


It is. Different area's of the brain do different things, and being task oriented we don't use all area's.....at the same time. (except things like sex or other stimuli, which sends waves throughout, if I recall).
 
2012-08-11 02:54:31 AM

omeganuepsilon: The mirror box was not in use for 30 years. It wasn't used until 35 years after the accident.
Your link is written by the doctors I mention in my last post as jumping to conclusions. Me thinks they're trying to do their career a favor by having found something new, even if it doesn't stand up to a cursory glance.


Doh, I've been had! Yea I went to the reference the article pulled the information from. The abstract makes it seem like a rather lengthy study but the conclusion should get them mocked by others in the profession.
 
2012-08-11 03:01:47 AM

RexTalionis: sno man: Very cool find subby...
I wonder if there are any plans for one of those 'bionic hands' now that she's capable of working more than a Simpson's hand...

You know what's really weird? They've discovered that people with amputated hand (and the phantom pain associated with the amputated hand) can make their pain go away if they trick their brain into thinking that their hand is still there.

For example, if you sit down at a table with your unamputated arm on the table facing a mirror and you look at the mirror image of the unamputated arm so that the mirror image is where your amputated hand should be, then your pain will start to subside for a while.

Once human-like prosthesis becomes possible, I'd imagine it'd take care of most phantom pain issues.


Those experiments, from what I've read, are awesome in their simplicity and elegance. That is all.
 
2012-08-11 03:08:46 AM
But now she has anxiety and is self conscious about her phantom thumb that looks like toe.
 
2012-08-11 03:13:37 AM
The guy V.S. Ramachandran mentioned in the article has a book "Phantoms in the Brain." Extremely interesting reading; highly recommend.
 
2012-08-11 03:17:12 AM

Tenatra: omeganuepsilon: The mirror box was not in use for 30 years. It wasn't used until 35 years after the accident.
Your link is written by the doctors I mention in my last post as jumping to conclusions. Me thinks they're trying to do their career a favor by having found something new, even if it doesn't stand up to a cursory glance.

Doh, I've been had! Yea I went to the reference the article pulled the information from. The abstract makes it seem like a rather lengthy study but the conclusion should get them mocked by others in the profession.


Don't feel bad, like I said up thread, authors and such tend to slay science articles a lot, and it can be tough to sort through.

Relieved you agree on the rest. Too often on fark someone mentions something to the effect of "Thanks sparky, but I'll believe the guy with the education." You know, like the vaccine/autism people...A popular thing in medical threads I've noticed. You provide logic and sometimes evidence, and they still decide to believe otherwise.

Of course, I've made the mistake of mentioning the TV show House in threads too, and that turns into the predictable argument about how not everything on tv is real....(mirror box was on House too....but what interesting medical story hasn't been?) Also, if House says we need to breath to live, is that false too?

Sorry. Pre sleep ramble.
/in one of those modes where you just do not want to give it up and go to bed
//going anyway
///should catch up on house, haven't seen the last few
////NO SPOILERS!
 
2012-08-11 04:09:28 AM
How can they grow BACK if they never originally existed?

English please?
 
2012-08-11 04:27:58 AM

Doc Ok: The guy V.S. Ramachandran mentioned in the article has a book "Phantoms in the Brain." Extremely interesting reading; highly recommend.


Came here to mention this very excellent read. Seconded.

This case is remarkable. I wonder what speed the mirror box trick took hold, instantaneous or over some period of time.
 
2012-08-11 05:26:08 AM
As someone whose wife is an amputee,( left leg, below knee), and has considerable problems with phantom limb pain,despite the meds she takes for it, I'm going to look into this technique. the leg was badly damaged in an MVA in 1993, had many surgeries on it for 13 years. finally gave up on trying to keep it. She can still feel the foot, and that some days she will say it is wearing a sandal..the mind is a powerful organ.
 
Skr
2012-08-11 06:54:02 AM
This makes me wonder if we still have the hook ups for the tails our ancestors had. Be interesting after all of the nerve wiring for prosthetic limbs happens, if we will be able to add entirely new limb systems. Tails, four arms, additional eyes etc etc all viewed by the brain as natural extensions of the self.

On a side note, many meditation techniques are pretty similar to the mirror play for these phantom limbs. Actively focusing the mind on parts and turning them on and off during the course.
 
2012-08-11 10:15:25 AM
Sooo.... did it have four wheels?
farm3.staticflickr.com

Did it give warnings about not wasting time?
farm5.staticflickr.com

Did it wear a mask?
farm4.staticflickr.com

Or have a skull face ring?
farm7.staticflickr.com
 
2012-08-11 10:29:32 AM

Skr: Be interesting after all of the nerve wiring for prosthetic limbs happens, if we will be able to add entirely new limb systems. Tails, four arms, additional eyes etc etc all viewed by the brain as natural extensions of the self.


I'd say the chances are good, based on the work at Miguel Nicolelis' lab.

There's also Stelarc, of course, although I'll admit that I find it hard to work past my anti-AW bias and actually attend to the points he's trying to make.

It's not surprising that a person develops phantom-limb kinesthesia, or that the mental image of that limb can be altered and distorted. It is surprising, and informative, to find that a person who lived her whole life with a modified limb spontaneously developed a phantom limb in a different configuration. Yeah, the brain is probably hardwired to deal with five-fingered hands -- but she'd already had 18 years to modify that wiring.
 
Skr
2012-08-11 11:12:52 AM

jfarkinB: Skr: Be interesting after all of the nerve wiring for prosthetic limbs happens, if we will be able to add entirely new limb systems. Tails, four arms, additional eyes etc etc all viewed by the brain as natural extensions of the self.

I'd say the chances are good, based on the work at Miguel Nicolelis' lab.

There's also Stelarc, of course, although I'll admit that I find it hard to work past my anti-AW bias and actually attend to the points he's trying to make.

It's not surprising that a person develops phantom-limb kinesthesia, or that the mental image of that limb can be altered and distorted. It is surprising, and informative, to find that a person who lived her whole life with a modified limb spontaneously developed a phantom limb in a different configuration. Yeah, the brain is probably hardwired to deal with five-fingered hands -- but she'd already had 18 years to modify that wiring.


Interesting links. Thankies.
 
2012-08-11 11:34:58 AM

piltdown: "Why won't God heal amputees?"


So that doctors can learn cool stuff like this.
 
2012-08-11 11:39:15 AM

jfarkinB: . It is surprising, and informative, to find that a person who lived her whole life with a modified limb spontaneously developed a phantom limb in a different configuration.


It's not spontaneous if it takes losing the hand to do so.

Also, if you're surprised, read my post above. It's common knowledge that the brain attempts to adapt to change, and sometimes screws up. The Mirror box is proof of concept that perception through the eyes can alter the interpretation of things. The brain is not hardwired for anything of the sort, or we'd not take years to grasp basic motor functions, and she'd have "felt" those fingers before she lost the hand.

The point is that the brain is fluid in how it interprets all of it's input, adaptable, and powerfully so.

It is an unsupported conclusion that the brain has a built in body image. Flies in the face of what is known, and is more relative to creationism than actual science.
 
2012-08-11 11:44:17 AM

IXI Jim IXI: [retrobookshop.com image 300x486]
Pppphhhhhttttt. Amateur.


damn you i was too late

i was going to ask if she could pick up paper clips with her phantom fingers
 
2012-08-11 03:01:07 PM

RexTalionis: sno man: Very cool find subby...
I wonder if there are any plans for one of those 'bionic hands' now that she's capable of working more than a Simpson's hand...

You know what's really weird? They've discovered that people with amputated hand (and the phantom pain associated with the amputated hand) can make their pain go away if they trick their brain into thinking that their hand is still there.

For example, if you sit down at a table with your unamputated arm on the table facing a mirror and you look at the mirror image of the unamputated arm so that the mirror image is where your amputated hand should be, then your pain will start to subside for a while.

Once human-like prosthesis becomes possible, I'd imagine it'd take care of most phantom pain issues.


I don't think so.

AFAIK phantom pains occur because the nerves are severed, and then grows back in a "knot".
 
2012-08-11 04:11:59 PM

omeganuepsilon: jfarkinB: . It is surprising, and informative, to find that a person who lived her whole life with a modified limb spontaneously developed a phantom limb in a different configuration.

It's not spontaneous if it takes losing the hand to do so.


Well, duh. It was spontaneous in the sense that it didn't require any therapeutic intervention to modify her phantom limb's configuration. It was surprising in that her brain presumably had had 18 years to build up a kinesthetic model based on a three-fingered hand -- so why would that model spontaneously revert to a five-fingered phantom?

Yes, after surgery, her nerves were being stimulated in new ways. And, yes, she had a contralateral five-fingered hand to "serve as a model". But I don't see any convincing evidence that that would make a difference, any more than having a five-toed foot would.

Remember, the mirror-box treatments started after she presented with the five-fingered phantom sensations.
 
2012-08-11 05:59:46 PM

jfarkinB: so why would that model spontaneously revert to a five-fingered phantom?


It didn't spontaneously do so, the hand was farking cut off. That's a major shock to the system, anything developing after that is not spontaneous at all, as per the typical usages of the word. The external stimuli of having the hand suddenly removed caused the need for re-evaulation of the signals the brain was supplied with . If she had never lost the hand at all and suddenly started feeling extra fingers with, then you'd have a point with your insistence in using the words spontaneous and surprise together. But that's not how it happened.

jfarkinB: And, yes, she had a contralateral five-fingered hand to "serve as a model". But I don't see any convincing evidence that that would make a difference, any more than having a five-toed foot would.


That's because you're not very bright. It's not exactly rocket surgery.

The mirror box helps because you see it as your hand, this proves the concept that the brain uses visual cues to interpret other nervous input. The box is a manipulation of what the brain already does, try to make sense of things through multiple inputs, it's more efficient and reliable than just using imagination(which gave her farked up short fingers when when interpreting the new sensations) as the box supplies observable evidence.

After the hand was lost, and new input was being dealt with, she did see her other hand, and had a sense of something missing. It's not great leap to sub in the mirror image mentally. We do it all the time unconsciously with everything, faces to words to graphic design. The human mind, in one way or another, is a big fan of symmetry, it lends greatly to our sense of balance, physically and metaphorically.

Please, give it a rest until your argument presents logic and not just repetition of the same words used in the wrong manner.
 
2012-08-11 07:16:06 PM
This happened at the operta?

i.imgur.com

"Let me show you my phantom, um . . . finger."
 
2012-08-12 02:59:11 AM

omeganuepsilon: Relieved you agree on the rest. Too often on fark someone mentions something to the effect of "Thanks sparky, but I'll believe the guy with the education." You know, like the vaccine/autism people...A popular thing in medical threads I've noticed. You provide logic and sometimes evidence, and they still decide to believe otherwise.


Well it seemed like flawed logic was used to achieve the conclusion. Aside from having an outcome they desired for their study they should have also provided a level of soundness to protect their proposition. Actually, wait a minute... I looked up that book that was suggested earlier in this thread. V.S Ramachandran seems to be stuck on the idea of being wired. If McGeoch was leading this case and backed it up with V.S Ramachandran I know why this conclusion was used. McGeoch, for your own sake, challenge his ideas.
 
2012-08-12 03:21:29 PM
Hey, omeganuepsilon, you mentioned earlier in the thread that you had a layman's understanding of this topic. A bit of advice: a layman's understanding doesn't outweigh the expertise of a paper's authors AND its reviewers. Yes, you've got every right to challenge the paper, just like anyone else -- it's just that, if you and the authors disagree, there's a very good chance that it's you, not they, who are wrong.

Conversely, here on Fark, there's a very good chance that you're right and I'm wrong -- as far as you know. I haven't made any comments about my own background in the field, and there probably isn't much point in doing so now.

However, the paper's authors appear to present evidence for their conclusion; you present only bluster and assumptions. (You said that "the nerves for those 'missing' fingers were always there." What do you actually know about the way nerves develop in a phocomelic limb? Warning: you may need to dig deeper than Wikipedia to find out.) When I follow up with more questions, you just repeat your assumptions, defending them with insults.

"Common sense" ("this is the way it obviously has to be") doesn't outweigh peer-reviewed research. Neither does arrogance.
 
2012-08-12 05:12:56 PM

jfarkinB: "Common sense" ("this is the way it obviously has to be") doesn't outweigh peer-reviewed research. Neither does arrogance.


I'm not using "this is the way it has to obviously be". I'm listing my reason and logic that IS out there on wiki's and other such publications for anyone to look up. The brain is adaptable and learns how to deal with things, that is not "common sense", it's common knowledge.

If you're "surprised" and act as if it's all "spontaneous", that's indicative of you being the one using "this is the way it has to be", not I.

You're using the logical fallacy of appeal to authority here. I present reasonable deductions and supportive knowledge, with the conclusion that their "indications" are unfounded babble, and you refuse to even address the brain's ability to learn and adapt(as if it's unsubstantiated myth, lol). As one cannot prove a negative, i'm in the right, because they offer no evidence whatsoever. If you don't understand that, try to prove to all of us farkers that the easter bunny, or god, or the FSM, does NOT exist. We won't hold our breath.

As far as arrogance, that's a a double edged sword you're swinging there, it cuts both ways, and you're certainly not innocent of that particular "sin".

Get stuffed buddy.

Doctors and scientists often can be wrong, sometimes with intent. See: Vaccines/Autism
For more on the concept:
Link
Link
Link

From doctors to archaeologists, history is rife with scientific people who make mistakes, are misled by others, or who lie cheat and steal to make a name for themselves.

Science is never really wrong, but scientists are a shifty lot, like you if you're in the field.

If you want to put blind faith into the people behind the practice, that's up to you, but in that case you're part of the problem this society has with willful ignorance. Being skeptical of what you hear, especially when there is reason, as I have described[summary: there IS a simple explanation, a theory that's well documented, so "surprise" IS unfounded, not to mention the wild guess of built in blueprints], is the intellectually healthier outlook.

If there were the supposed inherent blueprint, much of known science/biology/neurology would be flat out wrong. It flies in the face of a LOT of common knowledge(ie NOT theory, testable function). That you don't possess that knowledge is irrelevant, except that it proves your ignorance when you try to discuss the topic, and maybe even your inability to learn., because I've expressed many of the concepts and you still refuse them. You're proving to those of us who do know at least some of what we're talking about that you're simply trying to pull something out of your ass and plaster it on the internet in an effort to sound smart.

That's the problem you face, you're not smart and you're trying to fake it in the presence of people who are. That never goes over very well, as it won't for the doctors from the article publishing a paper that will get lambasted(if there's any justice, took an awful lot of celebrity face time to get the vaccine guy openly shown as a bullshiatter, and by then the damage was done). Hang your head in shame, play denialist till you're blue in the face, rag on my arrogance, whatever, doesn't bother me, except that my hope for the unwashed mass's ability to smarten up dies a little more.

Or, and here's the one exception, your goal is to make others remain ignorant. You may still be dumb for taking on competition that's quite demonstrably out of your league, but it is a popular tactic of believers and even leaders..to keep the populace cut off from intelligence.
 
2012-08-12 08:55:07 PM
[lengthy rant omitted]

What. The fark. Are you on?

Hang your head in shame, play denialist till you're blue in the face, rag on my arrogance, whatever, doesn't bother me, except that my hope for the unwashed mass's ability to smarten up dies a little more.

Heh. Nope, no arrogance there.

Or, and here's the one exception, your goal is to make others remain ignorant. You may still be dumb for taking on competition that's quite demonstrably out of your league, but it is a popular tactic of believers and even leaders..to keep the populace cut off from intelligence.

O NOES! I'm trying "to keep the populace cut off from intelligence"... by "taking on competition that's quite demonstrably out of [my] league"... on a Fark discussion thread. Good God, what damage do you think I do when I do review or contribute on published papers?

Thank heavens you're here to make sure that all Farkers know what really happens when you pull that phantom finger.
 
2012-08-13 12:21:28 AM

jfarkinB: [lengthy rant omitted]

What. The fark. Are you on?


No clue, but omeganuepsilon has been on my ignore list for some time. Funny thing, I know both Dr Ramachandran and Dr McGeoch. I suffer from a strange disorder that they've given the name xenomelia (foriegn limb in greek). It also has the name Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID). It's what you might call the opposite of a phantom limb, my legs feel like they shouldn't be there at all (yes, it's as strange and disturbing as it sounds). Their theories on how the brain constructs the body image matches almost exactly with my own experiences. I was a research subject of there's some time back.
 
2012-08-13 01:01:45 AM

halotosis: Funny thing, I know both Dr Ramachandran and Dr McGeoch. I suffer from a strange disorder that they've given the name xenomelia (foriegn limb in greek). It also has the name Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID). It's what you might call the opposite of a phantom limb, my legs feel like they shouldn't be there at all (yes, it's as strange and disturbing as it sounds). Their theories on how the brain constructs the body image matches almost exactly with my own experiences. I was a research subject of there's some time back.


Just curious (since I'm interpreting it two different way). Is it the legs being there but not being able to feel them or is it that you believe that you have no need for them to be attached to your body?
 
2012-08-13 07:44:45 AM

halotosis: Their theories on how the brain constructs the body image matches almost exactly with my own experiences.


This article states plainly that this instance indicates the brain doesn't construct the image, but instead that there is a blueprint in the brain of that body part.

So, that's humorous, someone who's got me on ignore unwittingly lends support to my argument.

I love Fark.
 
2012-08-13 10:39:33 AM

Tenatra: halotosis: Funny thing, I know both Dr Ramachandran and Dr McGeoch. I suffer from a strange disorder that they've given the name xenomelia (foriegn limb in greek). It also has the name Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID). It's what you might call the opposite of a phantom limb, my legs feel like they shouldn't be there at all (yes, it's as strange and disturbing as it sounds). Their theories on how the brain constructs the body image matches almost exactly with my own experiences. I was a research subject of there's some time back.

Just curious (since I'm interpreting it two different way). Is it the legs being there but not being able to feel them or is it that you believe that you have no need for them to be attached to your body?


I can feel them just fine, they just don't feel consistent with the rest of my body. I've always felt this way, can't remember not feeling like this. There is a specific line I can draw where the strangeness begins. It's more like they feel like extra limbs or like my legs are longer than they should be. I'm not even sure I can describe it, but Dr Ramachandran's people call the sensation dysphoria. Some people who suffer from it want their limbs removed/paralyzed... admittedly, when it's been at it's worst, I considered it myself. Thanks to the guys at UCSD, I have an understanding of what's causing it and that's helped me a lot in coping with it.
 
2012-08-13 02:33:14 PM

omeganuepsilon: This article states plainly that this instance indicates the brain doesn't construct the image, but instead that there is a blueprint in the brain of that body part.


body image - conscious map of your body
body schema - unconscious map of your body


halotosis: I can feel them just fine, they just don't feel consistent with the rest of my body. I've always felt this way, can't remember not feeling like this. There is a specific line I can draw where the strangeness begins. It's more like they feel like extra limbs or like my legs are longer than they should be. I'm not even sure I can describe it


I understand what you mean now, I originally thought of it as being the exact opposite of this phantom limb thing which would make moving very awkward if you couldn't feel your legs. And I think I understand what is going on with this article, after looking at McGeoch's recent papers I see that this paper followed a different paper that suggested "that the reorganization of maps is based partly on reversible inhibition of ordinarily silent synapses, not entirely on new anatomical connections. This finding further highlights the dynamic nature of the brain on remarkably short-time scales" ... "After amputation of an arm the sensory map of the body changes radically, causing the sensory input from face to 'invade' the original hand area in the brain. As a result, touching the face of the amputee evokes tactile sensations on the phantom."

That would explain the phantom hand but it has also been documented that congenital missing limbs provide evidence of the limb missing in the schema so I guess that is where they were going when the found out this woman felt like she had 5 fingers instead of 3. The article didn't make that clear and the paraphrased sentences from McGeoch made it sound like it comes off like definitive evidence that we are all encoded with proper pairings in a unconscious blueprint. I still have other questions about amputees and the unconscious schema but that would be too controversial to throw them in a controlled world of similar individuals for future researching. Things like is it possible to superimpose them with a new schema and make them feel like everyone in the 'world' should only have 1 arm? (of course they'd have to be thrown into this place at a very young age or else they'd know about us 2 armed people though).
 
2012-08-13 06:18:12 PM

Tenatra: omeganuepsilon: This article states plainly that this instance indicates the brain doesn't construct the image, but instead that there is a blueprint in the brain of that body part.

body image - conscious map of your body
body schema - unconscious map of your body


Sure, like I said/implied in my Boobies, the concept is more important than meticulous detailing.
....
Still, my argument stands.

The following, again, not necessarily for you but those who (continually)fail to grasp the concept.

FTA:
McGeoch says this study indicates that there is a hardwired representation in the brain of what the body should look like, regardless of how it actually appears in real life.

That contradicts the demonstrable theory of body schema.
From the wiki on Body Schema:
The neurologist Sir Henry Head originally defined it as a postural model of the body that actively organizes and modifies 'the impressions produced by incoming sensory impulses in such a way that the final sensation of [body] position, or of locality, rises into consciousness charged with a relation to something that has happened before'.[1] As a postural model that keeps track of limb position, it plays an important role in control of action. It involves aspects of both central (brain processes) and peripheral (sensory, proprioceptive) systems. Thus, a body schema can be considered the collection of processes that registers the posture of one's body parts in space. The schema is updated during body movement. This is typically a non-conscious process, and is used primarily for spatial organization of action. It is therefore a pragmatic representation of the body's spatial properties, which includes the length of limbs and limb segments, their arrangement, the configuration of the segments in space, and the shape of the body surface.
...
The famous Rubber Hand Illusion, has also shown the rapid reorganization of the body schema on the timescale of seconds, showing the high level of plasticity and speed with which the body schema reorganizes.
...
Really, the rest of the farking page repeats more of the same, clearly touting the adaptable power, and the ability of visual stimuli to tell us what we should be feeling.

The statement from the articles implies a built in blueprint, as where all common knowledge refers to an active learning process, beginnign in the earlierst stages of brain developement(to venture a guess). It may be present early in some form, but it's as if they're insinuating it's there upon conception. It's almost like attempting to understand what a creationist is saying.

We've got all of this demonstrable work and effects, and a couple doctors team up to get a paper published that's the intellectual equivalent of crockoduck.

It's just absurd.
Body Schema is a learned thing.

Oh, and my detractor above said something about feet...
The body schema is not represented wholly in a single region of the brain.[2] Recent fMRI (functional magnetic resonance imaging) studies confirm earlier results. For example, the schema for feet and hands are coded by different regions of the brain, while the fingers are represented by a separate part entirely.

/I did call it before-hand though, of a sort
//challenging my arguments with nothing but appeal to authority
///some people are just born to troll I suppose
////or have incurable ignorance ...
 
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