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(Talking Points Memo)   How the Hammerskins became a major hate group, and not just the name for the gay steel industry   (tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 47
    More: Interesting, Hammerskin Nation, American Terror, Jewish Community Center, Dallas County, hate groups, Florida Today, American Front, special agent in charge  
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1951 clicks; posted to Politics » on 10 Aug 2012 at 1:58 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-10 11:37:03 AM
Hot stuff coming through!
 
2012-08-10 11:46:15 AM
I proxyed up and moseyed into Stormfront to nose around for a while after the Sikh shootings. I figured, I've been trolling Freep for a while now, surely I've seen the worst humanity has to offer.

Mad dogs. The lot of 'em.
These people need to be put down.
 
2012-08-10 01:59:16 PM
Extreme racial/nationalist groups tied to incidents of terror? No way!
 
2012-08-10 02:04:19 PM
They work hard, they hate hard.
 
2012-08-10 02:05:13 PM
Talking about right-wing terrorists in the US is unpatriotic.
 
2012-08-10 02:05:28 PM
I heard something about them on NPR recently as well, I think.

Certainly a downer of a topic. Nasty people, to put it mildly.
 
2012-08-10 02:05:30 PM
Haven't even gotten around to reading TFA, but I wanted to drop in and thank Subby for a truly LOL headline...
 
2012-08-10 02:08:09 PM
Johnny Hammersticks
 
2012-08-10 02:08:57 PM
Hammerdins were awesome 'till they got nerfed
 
2012-08-10 02:10:01 PM

TsarTom: I proxyed up and moseyed into Stormfront to nose around for a while after the Sikh shootings. I figured, I've been trolling Freep for a while now, surely I've seen the worst humanity has to offer.

Mad dogs. The lot of 'em.
These people need to be put down.


I think the problem is mainly that Stormfront-types feel the same way about people who aren't them. It just seems counter-productive to hate the haters because they hate, you know what I'm saying?
 
2012-08-10 02:14:14 PM

Nurglitch: I think the problem is mainly that Stormfront-types feel the same way about people who aren't them. It just seems counter-productive to hate the haters because they hate, you know what I'm saying?


That sounds good.

But.... it is also a good thing when society gets together and decides a certain type of behaviors is causing problems and needs to be stopped even if that requires force.

I think "hating" hate groups falls in to that category. Nobody should tolerate it.
 
2012-08-10 02:16:57 PM

Alphax: I heard something about them on NPR recently as well, I think.

Certainly a downer of a topic. Nasty people, to put it mildly.


...and you're using the word "people" in its loosest possible definition of the word.

They have the right to spout their ignorant bullshiat, but these people are embarrassing scum. Plain and simple.

The second they go from spouting racist bullshiat to acting on it, I fully support coming down on these folks like a ton of bricks. Throw them in jail for as long as allowed by law, seize everything they and their organizations own and give it to charity or victims of their crimes.
 
2012-08-10 02:17:50 PM

SpectroBoy: Nurglitch: I think the problem is mainly that Stormfront-types feel the same way about people who aren't them. It just seems counter-productive to hate the haters because they hate, you know what I'm saying?

That sounds good.

But.... it is also a good thing when society gets together and decides a certain type of behaviors is causing problems and needs to be stopped even if that requires force.

I think "hating" hate groups falls in to that category. Nobody should tolerate it.


I posted this in yesterdays thread.

I was in the parking lot of the gulf side pier at fort de desoto neat st. petersburg, fl. I saw a young man (20 yo or so) with a large swastika tattooed on his chest. It took a great deal of restraint not to punch him in the face.

My wife saw it too. She is Israeli. I don't like the fact that I hate these farkwits. It is hate that fuels them as well. I suppose I should pity them because they will never be allowed in polite society. And will be shunned from any community other than their own. But I don't pity them. They are bigoted cretins that would not mind a bit to see my family dead. I feel I owe them a competent adversary.
 
2012-08-10 02:19:30 PM

SpectroBoy: Nurglitch: I think the problem is mainly that Stormfront-types feel the same way about people who aren't them. It just seems counter-productive to hate the haters because they hate, you know what I'm saying?

That sounds good.

But.... it is also a good thing when society gets together and decides a certain type of behaviors is causing problems and needs to be stopped even if that requires force.

I think "hating" hate groups falls in to that category. Nobody should tolerate it.


Intolerance of intolerance is a virtue, kind of like how loyalty to Hitler was/is a vice.
 
2012-08-10 02:19:33 PM

keylock71: ...and you're using the word "people" in its loosest possible definition of the word.


Yeah, I hesitated before using it.
 
2012-08-10 02:24:07 PM

Mikey1969: Haven't even gotten around to reading TFA, but I wanted to drop in and thank Subby for a truly LOL headline...


you're welcome

/subby
 
2012-08-10 02:25:54 PM
Would somebody please figure out a way to move these violent farkers off of the race thing and onto the class thing? Beat the rich.
 
2012-08-10 02:28:30 PM
I don't know about the particulars of this case, but a lot of white supremacists (including those with a lot of tats) are linked with the Aryan Brotherhood which started out as a white protection gang in prisons.

Yes, many white supremacists take violent criminals as their role models..
 
2012-08-10 02:28:38 PM

ArkAngel: Hot stuff coming through!


We work hard, we play hard!
 
2012-08-10 02:28:47 PM

SpectroBoy: Nurglitch: I think the problem is mainly that Stormfront-types feel the same way about people who aren't them. It just seems counter-productive to hate the haters because they hate, you know what I'm saying?

That sounds good.

But.... it is also a good thing when society gets together and decides a certain type of behaviors is causing problems and needs to be stopped even if that requires force.

I think "hating" hate groups falls in to that category. Nobody should tolerate it.


Again, it's not necessarily a good thing when society gets together and decides that a certain type of behaviour is causing problems, such as when homosexual acts between consenting adults were outlawed, or aiding escaped slaves. It could be a good thing, in the latter case, and a bad thing in the former case. I mean, sure, be prepared to meet violence with proportional force and all that, but I'm just opposed to trying to out-Nazis the Nazis on the same grounds that they want to see me and mine strung up.

I'm not trying to make an argument to tolerating intolerance, as tolerance requires reciprocity for it to be good. I'm just pointing out that the problem with skinheads is their intolerance. If we wouldn't tolerate intolerance on their part, why should we tolerate such traits in ourselves?
 
2012-08-10 02:31:50 PM
Within a week, Melbourne police received a rambling, handwritten letter threatening to ignite a race war by killing and mutilating black officers and their families.

This is the sort of threat that underlines why hate-crimes laws exist. This wasn't just a random threat "We will kill and mutilate people", or even "we will kill and mutilate cops". It was "n****r don't you dare wear a badge in this town" and if that's not a form of terrorism I don't know what is.

TsarTom:
I proxyed up and moseyed into Stormfront to nose around for a while after the Sikh shootings. I figured, I've been trolling Freep for a while now, surely I've seen the worst humanity has to offer.

Stormfront etc. are dangerous because they have a violent, genocidal ideology and are willing to act on it. Freepers are dangerous because a lot of their "extreme" beliefs have come to be considered mainstream political discourse.
 
2012-08-10 02:34:37 PM

SpectroBoy: Nurglitch: I think the problem is mainly that Stormfront-types feel the same way about people who aren't them. It just seems counter-productive to hate the haters because they hate, you know what I'm saying?

That sounds good.

But.... it is also a good thing when society gets together and decides a certain type of behaviors is causing problems and needs to be stopped even if that requires force.

I think "hating" hate groups falls in to that category. Nobody should tolerate it.


I try as best I can to distinguish between hateful people and hateful behaviors. I tend to think that while evil actions are common, evil people are not. Trying to see things this way helps me maintain some optimism, because I usually think that behaviors can be changed, but people cannot.
 
2012-08-10 02:35:46 PM
cmgonline.com
CAN'T PROFILE THIS
 
2012-08-10 02:37:32 PM

Seabon: ArkAngel: Hot stuff coming through!

We work hard, we play hard!


They probably take all the good names, like Lance and Julian.
 
2012-08-10 02:38:37 PM
Is anybody really surprised by any of this?
 
2012-08-10 02:44:42 PM
You know what I realized?

White supremacists seem to be giant nerds who can't let themselves have fun. I mean, they literally are into all of the weird nerdy shiat guys like me like, but are so obsessed with things like purity and race that it becomes humorless.

"We're the Hammerskins!" Great statement for your guild. Bad statement for your social group.

"We follow a wizard who follows a dragon!" Great statement for your DM. Bad statement for your social group.

"We follow the hammer of Odin!" Great statement for your party's berzerker. Bad statement for your social group.

"We believe a race of dark, evil creatures are polluting society and we have to wage an underground war against them to save the world." Great pitch for a campaign. Bad statement for your social group.
 
2012-08-10 02:58:18 PM

Nurglitch: Again, it's not necessarily a good thing when society gets together and decides that a certain type of behaviour is causing problems, such as when homosexual acts between consenting adults were outlawed, or aiding escaped slaves. It could be a good thing, in the latter case, and a bad thing in the former case. I mean, sure, be prepared to meet violence with proportional force and all that, but I'm just opposed to trying to out-Nazis the Nazis on the same grounds that they want to see me and mine strung up.


It's not the same ground because you're unnecessarily blurring the lines between being a loud-mouthed dickhead with stupid ideas and intentionally choosing to be a member of a violent, revolutionary group.

People who choose to associate with groups that make it a point to intimidate and assault others do not get the privilege of hiding behind the constitution. There's a distinction to be made between distasteful scum like Westboro Baptist Church and groups like the Hammerskins and their enablers at places like Stormfront. The former is obnoxious, the latter is actively dangerous. Saying the latter should be put to an end, by force if necessary, is not unacceptable. They are criminals in a criminal gang and should be treated accordingly.
 
2012-08-10 03:08:25 PM
Ever pic of some white power idiot always makes me think "ahhhh...that's why they're angry". Never one that doesn't look ugly and ignorant and cheated by genetics. They can try and convince themselves they're supreme in some way but I'll never buy it.
 
2012-08-10 03:09:04 PM
Ever- every
 
2012-08-10 03:11:05 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Nurglitch: Again, it's not necessarily a good thing when society gets together and decides that a certain type of behaviour is causing problems, such as when homosexual acts between consenting adults were outlawed, or aiding escaped slaves. It could be a good thing, in the latter case, and a bad thing in the former case. I mean, sure, be prepared to meet violence with proportional force and all that, but I'm just opposed to trying to out-Nazis the Nazis on the same grounds that they want to see me and mine strung up.

It's not the same ground because you're unnecessarily blurring the lines between being a loud-mouthed dickhead with stupid ideas and intentionally choosing to be a member of a violent, revolutionary group.

People who choose to associate with groups that make it a point to intimidate and assault others do not get the privilege of hiding behind the constitution. There's a distinction to be made between distasteful scum like Westboro Baptist Church and groups like the Hammerskins and their enablers at places like Stormfront. The former is obnoxious, the latter is actively dangerous. Saying the latter should be put to an end, by force if necessary, is not unacceptable. They are criminals in a criminal gang and should be treated accordingly.


Hmmm ... RICO ...
 
2012-08-10 03:13:03 PM

Bloody William: "We follow the hammer of Odin!" Great statement for your party's berzerker. Bad statement for your social group.


Plus, that's terrifyingly mythologically inaccurate. Odin used a spear, or, more frequently, tricked you into doing something dumb that would get you killed while he hung back and sipped mead with some Valkyries. He was capable of being a warrior god, but tended to be a much bigger fan of cheating and the trickster path, at least in the Eddas and the surviving myths. The dumb one with the hammer that you could trick into trying to drink the ocean and so on was Thor.

"We believe a race of dark, evil creatures are polluting society and we have to wage an underground war against them to save the world." Great pitch for a campaign. Bad statement for your social group.

In all fairness, if you hear your DM say that, the obvious twist is going to be that you're on the side of evil and have to switch sides halfway through the campaign. Or he wants to play Vampire. In either case it's probably time to kiss your planned character goodbye and give up on achieving anything, so I guess the analogy to white supremacy holds there, too.
 
2012-08-10 03:16:50 PM

Jim_Callahan: Plus, that's terrifyingly mythologically inaccurate. Odin used a spear, or, more frequently, tricked you into doing something dumb that would get you killed while he hung back and sipped mead with some Valkyries. He was capable of being a warrior god, but tended to be a much bigger fan of cheating and the trickster path, at least in the Eddas and the surviving myths. The dumb one with the hammer that you could trick into trying to drink the ocean and so on was Thor.


These are people who call themselves Aryans and invoke Norse imagery. You expect accuracy? At least for shiat like Pathfinder it can work as fiction.
 
2012-08-10 03:22:30 PM
Oh, be nice!
 
2012-08-10 03:31:31 PM

Bloody William: These are people who call themselves Aryans and invoke Norse imagery. You expect accuracy? At least for shiat like Pathfinder it can work as fiction.


Fair enough. I know the old Deities book for D&D was an extended exercise in intentionally trolling people conversant with mythology (Apep = Egyptian Satan, what?), but I guess given who we're talking about being stupid would make more sense.
 
2012-08-10 03:37:49 PM

keylock71: They have the right to spout their ignorant bullshiat, but these people are embarrassing scum. Plain and simple


You are not a skin are you? Scum is a pretty popular word amongst skinheads of all stripes.
 
2012-08-10 03:39:17 PM

Bloody William: These are people who call themselves Aryans and invoke Norse imagery. You expect accuracy? At least for shiat like Pathfinder it can work as fiction.


There is a new Odonist movement within the skinhead movement. Pretty much just another way to get around calling yourself a racist though.
 
2012-08-10 03:40:35 PM
Odinist - sorry
 
2012-08-10 04:04:00 PM
Some black people got shot in Chicago this week. That means that a white supremacist shooting up a Sikh temple is no big deal or something...

/Journey inside a Fark White Supremacists mind
 
2012-08-10 04:15:58 PM

DaSwankOne: You are not a skin are you? Scum is a pretty popular word amongst skinheads of all stripes.


Not a skin myself, but nothing wrong with being one.
upload.wikimedia.org
1.bp.blogspot.com
www.uvm.edu (Not all skins, but still)
Don't let the boneheads take over the culture.
 
2012-08-10 04:54:09 PM

TsarTom: I proxyed up and moseyed into Stormfront to nose around for a while after the Sikh shootings. I figured, I've been trolling Freep for a while now, surely I've seen the worst humanity has to offer.

Mad dogs. The lot of 'em.
These people need to be put down.


The Freepers were divided into three groups:

A) "Wow, I'm relieved this was a left-wing liberal kook (because Nazis are National SOCIALISTS, amirite?)"
B) "This was a false-flag operation to discredit right-wing gun owners and patriots."
C) The last group actually took him at face value, but all of them were more concerned about how "Ubama" (...I don't get it, either) would use it to add another gun-control law to the "dozens" he has already signed, than any actual loss of life.
 
2012-08-10 06:04:53 PM
Captain_Ballbeard

Would somebody please figure out a way to move these violent farkers off of the race thing and onto the class thing? Beat the rich.

Believe it or not, many of them are already on that page, sort of. See, it's the international corporations/banks that are ruining shiat in the name of their own profits (true). They just think there's a racial angle to it, usually involving Jews (false).

The reality seems to be that people screw over other people for their own gain (no surprise, right?). They just see everything in terms of race, so even when they're right, they're wrong.
 
2012-08-10 06:37:21 PM

kxs401: Talking about right-wing terrorists in the US is unpatriotic.


There aren't any. These are all just isolated individuals hearing a message that in no way condones violence or race hatred and then twists it to their own vicious ends. But there's nothing wrong with the message, just these individuals, rogue wolves if you will. Or perhaps "lone wolves".
 
2012-08-10 11:46:39 PM

Bloody William:
White supremacists seem to be giant nerds who can't let themselves have fun. I mean, they literally are into all of the weird nerdy shiat guys like me like


Hammerskin Furcon is best furcon
 
2012-08-10 11:53:05 PM

DaSwankOne: keylock71: They have the right to spout their ignorant bullshiat, but these people are embarrassing scum. Plain and simple

You are not a skin are you? Scum is a pretty popular word amongst skinheads of all stripes.


If you've got a better word for them, I'm all ears...or eyes, as the case may be.
 
2012-08-11 01:31:54 AM

keylock71: DaSwankOne: keylock71: They have the right to spout their ignorant bullshiat, but these people are embarrassing scum. Plain and simple

You are not a skin are you? Scum is a pretty popular word amongst skinheads of all stripes.

If you've got a better word for them, I'm all ears...or eyes, as the case may be.


Stupid motherf*ckers?
 
2012-08-11 11:54:05 PM
Seriously...im about as macho as Mr. Rogers on prozac but every real fight Ive even been in was with a Nazi skin. I finally realized that failing to control my urge to punch the shait out of them whenever possible meant I was sane and NOT losing my grip.
 
2012-08-12 08:25:43 AM
FYI to any one who is counting, this is an actual hate group. Vandalism, shooting out windows, beating up minorities.
 
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