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(USA Today)   Modern cars are like overly loyal dogs: they keep "protecting" you from rescuers after you've had an accident   (usatoday.com) divider line 75
    More: Interesting, West Virginia University, automotive engineers, industrial district, Silverado, first responders, fuel economy in automobiles, compressed natural gas, Honda Insight  
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12668 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Aug 2012 at 1:05 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-10 10:37:26 AM  
 
2012-08-10 01:09:21 PM  
Cars are horribly expensive, inefficient, and dangerous things. But I await those idiots that defy this because they spend most of their meager earnings on cars because...I don't know they are morons? I'm sure the bunch of hooting retarded Neanderthals back in the 70s thought they had pretty safe and efficient cars too.
 
2012-08-10 01:09:34 PM  
I know they had trouble getting me out of the Matrix after the accident but it was because the car is too short once they've put the neck brace and stabilizer thing on you (probably because I'm tall for a female). Normally I kind of roll my head to the left as I get in so I don't hit it on the door frame but they had a hell of a time getting me on the back board because of it...

I guess this means I should drive *shudder* an SUV?
 
2012-08-10 01:10:16 PM  
All they need to do is stop trying to rescue those that were obviously at fault. Save the innocent first and if the bad driver dies well then Darwin did his job.
 
2012-08-10 01:13:10 PM  
Lemme guess: Airbags, hybrids, high strength steel.

*Checks story*

Yep. Rick Romero finally reporting what we firefighters have been training on for only the last decade or so.
 
2012-08-10 01:13:11 PM  
Has the overall incidence of vehicular fatality decreased? Including post-accident death/trauma?

(checks)

Yep.

So, if deaths are decreasing, even when it's harder to save people after an accident, aren't the improvements in auto safety MORE important than being able to extricate someone after a bad crash? Its not like there have been MORE deaths a result of cars being harder to rescue people from. Its almost as if...improving safety (i.e. making a care more resistant to external damage) would INHERENTLY make it more difficult to crack one open.
 
2012-08-10 01:14:22 PM  

ladyfortuna: I know they had trouble getting me out of the Matrix after the accident but it was because the car is too short once they've put the neck brace and stabilizer thing on you (probably because I'm tall for a female). Normally I kind of roll my head to the left as I get in so I don't hit it on the door frame but they had a hell of a time getting me on the back board because of it...

I guess this means I should drive *shudder* an SUV?


i195.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-10 01:20:53 PM  

ladyfortuna: I know they had trouble getting me out of the Matrix after the accident


nerd-fit.com
I understand that getting out of the Matrix can be quite a shock for some people.
 
2012-08-10 01:22:57 PM  

JustGetItRight: Lemme guess: Airbags, hybrids, high strength steel.

*Checks story*

Yep. Rick Romero finally reporting what we firefighters have been training on for only the last decade or so.


Ayuh. Same here.

We've never encountered any big issue with high strength steel, other than we've gone back to keeping dedicated cutters close at hand, but the cutter/spreader still does fine opening stuff up.
 
2012-08-10 01:25:52 PM  

JustGetItRight: Lemme guess: Airbags, hybrids, high strength steel.

*Checks story*

Yep. Rick Romero finally reporting what we firefighters have been training on for only the last decade or so.


My uncle (retired fire fighter) used to tell stories about VWs having engine fires, and when you sprayed water on them, they exploded.

The modern version of this problem is going to be those batteries in modern Hybrid/Electrics. I've got some high tech high output battery packs in my garage (R/C stuff), and when those go bad, it's VERY bad. I've seen LiPo's explode with enough force to put a 12 inch hole through diamond plate backed with plywood. I've also connected myself to the output terminal. I'll never make that mistake again. It isn't as bad as my HeNe laser transformer, that one is a killer, but it wasn't pleasant.

The full scale hybrid version of those batteries kinda scare me a little bit. See, the thing about gasoline is that you can only carry so much, and when it's gone, it's not exactly dangerous anymore. Those batteries though, even with no measurable power in them, they are still very dangerous to both humans and property. They are also going to make a recycling nightmare for someone at some point. Also, I'm no chemist, but burning Lithium is probably NOT good for your respiratory health. Then again, nothing on that car is good for you if it burns.
 
2012-08-10 01:26:29 PM  
Sergeant John Spartan sympathizes.
 
2012-08-10 01:29:16 PM  
 
2012-08-10 01:31:07 PM  

FrancoFile: Sergeant John Spartan sympathizes.


My issue with StayFoam® is that in a minor fender bender that's hard enough to set off your airbags, your car would effectively be totaled from having the foam get inside everything in the car.
 
2012-08-10 01:33:30 PM  

ladyfortuna: I know they had trouble getting me out of the Matrix after the accident but it was because the car is too short once they've put the neck brace and stabilizer thing on you (probably because I'm tall for a female). Normally I kind of roll my head to the left as I get in so I don't hit it on the door frame but they had a hell of a time getting me on the back board because of it...

I guess this means I should drive *shudder* an SUV?


3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-08-10 01:33:41 PM  

grinding_journalist: Has the overall incidence of vehicular fatality decreased? Including post-accident death/trauma?

(checks)

Yep.

So, if deaths are decreasing, even when it's harder to save people after an accident, aren't the improvements in auto safety MORE important than being able to extricate someone after a bad crash? Its not like there have been MORE deaths a result of cars being harder to rescue people from. Its almost as if...improving safety (i.e. making a care more resistant to external damage) would INHERENTLY make it more difficult to crack one open.


Modern cars aren't resistant to external damage - they deform to absorb the energy. That's why they're safer.

Provided that you're belted, you don't bounce around like a pinball as you would in a '57 Bel Air.
 
2012-08-10 01:35:26 PM  
Our car automatically locks at 15 mph... I imagine if there were an accident, that would be a pain if the driver is out cold...
 
2012-08-10 01:36:33 PM  
I'd like to see what happens when an unlucky responder cuts a side curtain airbag with the jaws.

But shouldn't any crash that requires the jaws to pop the top also fire off the side curtain airbags?
 
2012-08-10 01:37:18 PM  

rmdpgh: grinding_journalist: Has the overall incidence of vehicular fatality decreased? Including post-accident death/trauma?

(checks)

Yep.

So, if deaths are decreasing, even when it's harder to save people after an accident, aren't the improvements in auto safety MORE important than being able to extricate someone after a bad crash? Its not like there have been MORE deaths a result of cars being harder to rescue people from. Its almost as if...improving safety (i.e. making a care more resistant to external damage) would INHERENTLY make it more difficult to crack one open.

Modern cars aren't resistant to external damage - they deform to absorb the energy. That's why they're safer.

Provided that you're belted, you don't bounce around like a pinball as you would in a '57 Bel Air.


Don't let them fool you, the old cars deformed plenty in an accident.
 
2012-08-10 01:39:20 PM  

ladyfortuna: I know they had trouble getting me out of the Matrix ...


Your hardline was cut and operator sucked. Call this guy.
www.wearysloth.com
 
2012-08-10 01:40:16 PM  

metallion: Our car automatically locks at 15 mph... I imagine if there were an accident, that would be a pain if the driver is out cold...


All the autolocking cars unlock in an major accident.
 
2012-08-10 01:44:04 PM  

JustGetItRight: Lemme guess: Airbags, hybrids, high strength steel.

*Checks story*

Yep. Rick Romero finally reporting what we firefighters have been training on for only the last decade or so.


Wait until Rick finds out that those same safety features can also cause injuries, like the air bag that sprains wrists, breaks fingers, etc., but saves lives. That should be a front page story.
 
2012-08-10 01:45:06 PM  

MindStalker: metallion: Our car automatically locks at 15 mph... I imagine if there were an accident, that would be a pain if the driver is out cold...

All the autolocking cars unlock in an major accident.


What about rolling towards a cliff with no brakes at 16mph? whoops.
 
2012-08-10 01:45:26 PM  
Well, if your car is named for an acronym with means "killed in action", you've got to expect some casualties.
 
2012-08-10 01:45:30 PM  

wildcardjack: I'd like to see what happens when an unlucky responder cuts a side curtain airbag with the jaws.

But shouldn't any crash that requires the jaws to pop the top also fire off the side curtain airbags?


Not necessarily. Somtimes in front end collisions you have to do what's called a dash roll, which sometimes entails roof removal. Sometimes a car will land on its side without enough force to deploy the side air bags and you want to flap down the roof to extricate. I'm sure there are other examples.
 
2012-08-10 01:48:50 PM  

rmdpgh: Modern cars aren't resistant to external damage - they deform to absorb the energy. That's why they're safer.


Well yeah. But to do that job, their exteriors have been designed in such a way to protect the cabin occupants, hence my "resist damage" comment. (Materials, physical structural design, technology.) If I'd lead with "cars are deigned to deform, that's why they're hard to get into!" people would have been confused.

We're on the same page. I've learned to dumb stuff down when posting here.
 
2012-08-10 01:57:37 PM  

grinding_journalist: rmdpgh: Modern cars aren't resistant to external damage - they deform to absorb the energy. That's why they're safer.

Well yeah. But to do that job, their exteriors have been designed in such a way to protect the cabin occupants, hence my "resist damage" comment. (Materials, physical structural design, technology.) If I'd lead with "cars are deigned to deform, that's why they're hard to get into!" people would have been confused.

We're on the same page. I've learned to dumb stuff down when posting here.


What a douchey thing to write.
 
2012-08-10 02:10:13 PM  

grinding_journalist: rmdpgh: Modern cars aren't resistant to external damage - they deform to absorb the energy. That's why they're safer.

Well yeah. But to do that job, their exteriors have been designed in such a way to protect the cabin occupants, hence my "resist damage" comment. (Materials, physical structural design, technology.) If I'd lead with "cars are deigned to deform, that's why they're hard to get into!" people would have been confused.

We're on the same page. I've learned to dumb stuff down when posting here.


Fair 'nuf.
 
2012-08-10 02:12:38 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: grinding_journalist: rmdpgh: Modern cars aren't resistant to external damage - they deform to absorb the energy. That's why they're safer.

Well yeah. But to do that job, their exteriors have been designed in such a way to protect the cabin occupants, hence my "resist damage" comment. (Materials, physical structural design, technology.) If I'd lead with "cars are deigned to deform, that's why they're hard to get into!" people would have been confused.

We're on the same page. I've learned to dumb stuff down when posting here.

What a douchey thing to write.


I'll bite. Which part of the above exchange was douchey, or is my snark meter off and two people
agreeing in a civil manner on FARK is what threw the detectors off?
 
2012-08-10 02:17:43 PM  

rmdpgh: StoPPeRmobile: grinding_journalist: rmdpgh: Modern cars aren't resistant to external damage - they deform to absorb the energy. That's why they're safer.

Well yeah. But to do that job, their exteriors have been designed in such a way to protect the cabin occupants, hence my "resist damage" comment. (Materials, physical structural design, technology.) If I'd lead with "cars are deigned to deform, that's why they're hard to get into!" people would have been confused.

We're on the same page. I've learned to dumb stuff down when posting here.

What a douchey thing to write.

I'll bite. Which part of the above exchange was douchey, or is my snark meter off and two people
agreeing in a civil manner on FARK is what threw the detectors off?


I've learned to dumb stuff down when posting here.
 
GBB
2012-08-10 02:26:44 PM  
i.cnn.net
Racecar technology to the rescue!!!!

/Because racecar
 
2012-08-10 02:34:30 PM  
They've idiot-proofed cars these days. Airbags are everywhere, and pose an extreme risk to responders of injury. The use of exotic, boron-reinforced and other high-tensile, exotic steel makes extrication difficult ,even with newer hydraulic tools designed to cut them. (I've seen an A-post on a Volvo ruin a set of Holmatro tools.)
 
2012-08-10 02:54:22 PM  

metallion: Our car automatically locks at 15 mph... I imagine if there were an accident, that would be a pain if the driver is out cold...


Most of them auto-unlock if the airbags deploy
 
2012-08-10 03:04:12 PM  
No problem....just attach a few of these. Government can make them MANDATORY,
problem solved LOL.

i16.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-10 03:04:46 PM  
My fire department has found that if possible, a fast roof removal is one of the easiest things we can do with modern cars. Gives the paramedic all the room he needs to work, makes getting the person out of the vehicle that much easier.

I've had to educate a few people. Yes, if we cut the roof off of your car, the insurance company will total your car. Yes, if your car is so damaged that I judge a roof removal is appropriate, the insurance company is going to total it anyway. Yes, If I use a hydraulic spreader to open your car door, and leave the roof intact, the insurance company is still going to total your car.

If you wreck your 5 year old minivan, and the airbags go off, the insurance company is going to total your vehicle. No, it isn't my fault
 
2012-08-10 03:06:11 PM  

Mose: JustGetItRight: Lemme guess: Airbags, hybrids, high strength steel.

*Checks story*

Yep. Rick Romero finally reporting what we firefighters have been training on for only the last decade or so.

Ayuh. Same here.

We've never encountered any big issue with high strength steel, other than we've gone back to keeping dedicated cutters close at hand, but the cutter/spreader still does fine opening stuff up.


I've heard of older cutters breaking, but thus far we've not had any problems (small vollie house, maybe 8-10 extractions a year) in the real world or training. As you said, you can always use the spreaders on it.
 
2012-08-10 03:11:51 PM  

Kahabut: JustGetItRight: Lemme guess: Airbags, hybrids, high strength steel.

*Checks story*

Yep. Rick Romero finally reporting what we firefighters have been training on for only the last decade or so.

My uncle (retired fire fighter) used to tell stories about VWs having engine fires, and when you sprayed water on them, they exploded.

The modern version of this problem is going to be those batteries in modern Hybrid/Electrics. I've got some high tech high output battery packs in my garage (R/C stuff), and when those go bad, it's VERY bad. I've seen LiPo's explode with enough force to put a 12 inch hole through diamond plate backed with plywood. I've also connected myself to the output terminal. I'll never make that mistake again. It isn't as bad as my HeNe laser transformer, that one is a killer, but it wasn't pleasant.

The full scale hybrid version of those batteries kinda scare me a little bit. See, the thing about gasoline is that you can only carry so much, and when it's gone, it's not exactly dangerous anymore. Those batteries though, even with no measurable power in them, they are still very dangerous to both humans and property. They are also going to make a recycling nightmare for someone at some point. Also, I'm no chemist, but burning Lithium is probably NOT good for your respiratory health. Then again, nothing on that car is good for you if it burns.


That's just magnesium and if he only saw it on a VW fire, he didn't run many car fires. It is everywhere. Transmissions, steering columns, dashes. Makes for a hell of a fireworks show.

Nice little video of it here.
 
2012-08-10 03:12:45 PM  

ladyfortuna: I know they had trouble getting me out of the Matrix after the accident but it was because the car is too short once they've put the neck brace and stabilizer thing on you (probably because I'm tall for a female). Normally I kind of roll my head to the left as I get in so I don't hit it on the door frame but they had a hell of a time getting me on the back board because of it...

I guess this means I should drive *shudder* an SUV?


I find most SUVs have less headroom, as they raise the floor for "ground clearance" more than they raise the roof.

I'm tall (6'3") and I'm partial to the Mazda 5 (without a moonroof). Then again, I go for practical over stylish, and I actually find sliding side doors to be superior.

However, I'm fascinated by the Ford Transit Connect, as it is the only smallish vehicle (it is built on the Focus platform) that affords me a full foot of headroom.
 
2012-08-10 03:17:27 PM  

rmdpgh: Modern cars aren't resistant to external damage - they deform to absorb the energy. That's why they're safer.

Provided that you're belted, you don't bounce around like a pinball as you would in a '57 Bel Air.


Old cars had bumpers ripped from tanks, but a modern car has pillars that are much stronger than old cars.
 
2012-08-10 03:18:41 PM  

Mose: wildcardjack: I'd like to see what happens when an unlucky responder cuts a side curtain airbag with the jaws.

But shouldn't any crash that requires the jaws to pop the top also fire off the side curtain airbags?

Not necessarily. Somtimes in front end collisions you have to do what's called a dash roll, which sometimes entails roof removal. Sometimes a car will land on its side without enough force to deploy the side air bags and you want to flap down the roof to extricate. I'm sure there are other examples.


Why do you need to cut the roof for a dash roll? Just knock out the windshield and drop a hook on the steering column, then pull.
 
2012-08-10 03:40:57 PM  

This text is now purple: Why do you need to cut the roof for a dash roll? Just knock out the windshield and drop a hook on the steering column, then pull.


Often times all that accomplishes is to move the steering column. You should first make cuts in the front lower corner of the rocker panels on both the driver and passenger side. This really helps with rolling the dash. Don't forget to place your cribbing behind the cuts though.
 
2012-08-10 03:44:58 PM  
Well gee, if cars were just built more flimsily, we wouldn't have to bother with all that rescue nonsense to begin with....
 
2012-08-10 03:46:24 PM  

eKonk: Don't let them fool you, the old cars deformed plenty in an accident.


Oh, they deformed alright. Right into the passenger compartment, which tends to be a problem.
 
2012-08-10 03:48:31 PM  
Give me a seatbelt and a rollcage, that's all I need in a wreck. I don't need to walk away from an accident, just live through it.

Fark ABS, Fark having ten airbags per passenger, fark assisted parking, fark OnStar, Fark automatic braking, and fark blind-spot detection. More safety leads to lazy drivers, and more stupid wrecks.

I'm with Mr. Longhurst in his views of all this enhanced safety crapola. (See here) Force everyone to drive in deathtraps that will chop you to pieces if you so much as nudge someone, and 90% of the bad drivers will be gone one way or another within a year.

I'll freely admit I'm not the best driver, but compared to the morons around me...
 
2012-08-10 03:54:54 PM  

This text is now purple: rmdpgh: Modern cars aren't resistant to external damage - they deform to absorb the energy. That's why they're safer.

Provided that you're belted, you don't bounce around like a pinball as you would in a '57 Bel Air.

Old cars had bumpers ripped from tanks, but a modern car has pillars that are much stronger than old cars.


Agreed, but bumpers rarely need be removed in a catastrophic accident. If (and they often do)
the pillars hold, it isn't so catastrophic, as the roof hasn't collapsed inward on the occupant(s).

That all being said, see my above comment re: belting. If unbelted, the likelihood of injury soars
(especially in a rollover).
 
2012-08-10 04:04:42 PM  

Saberus Terras: I'm with Mr. Longhurst in his views of all this enhanced safety crapola. (See here) Force everyone to drive in deathtraps that will chop you to pieces if you so much as nudge someone, and 90% of the bad drivers will be gone one way or another within a year.


And how about passenger safety? What if I know I'm a terrible drive and therefore hire a professional for all my transportation needs -- can't I have safety features for my own protection against others who might not do the same?

/ Also, shouldn't we proactively kill bad drivers, before they get on the road and endanger others?
 
2012-08-10 04:10:12 PM  

wildcardjack:
But shouldn't any crash that requires the jaws to pop the top also fire off the side curtain airbags?


Nope, not always. In my BVR class we watched a video that shows an airbag popping 20 minutes after the crash and cracking a rescuer in the head
 
2012-08-10 04:12:49 PM  

BronyMedic: They've idiot-proofed cars these days. Airbags are everywhere, and pose an extreme risk to responders of injury. The use of exotic, boron-reinforced and other high-tensile, exotic steel makes extrication difficult ,even with newer hydraulic tools designed to cut them. (I've seen an A-post on a Volvo ruin a set of Holmatro tools.)


I see your problem.

/ AMKUS for the win
 
2012-08-10 04:15:56 PM  

farm machine: This text is now purple: Why do you need to cut the roof for a dash roll? Just knock out the windshield and drop a hook on the steering column, then pull.

Often times all that accomplishes is to move the steering column. You should first make cuts in the front lower corner of the rocker panels on both the driver and passenger side. This really helps with rolling the dash. Don't forget to place your cribbing behind the cuts though.


We do 2 straight cuts at the bottom of the A post rather than the pie cut. Found that it really works a bit better, 'specially on any cars with rocker rot
 
2012-08-10 04:17:06 PM  

farm machine: This text is now purple: Why do you need to cut the roof for a dash roll? Just knock out the windshield and drop a hook on the steering column, then pull.

Often times all that accomplishes is to move the steering column. You should first make cuts in the front lower corner of the rocker panels on both the driver and passenger side. This really helps with rolling the dash. Don't forget to place your cribbing behind the cuts though.


Also, if the steering column has the U-joint at the firewall (like most modern cars), all that does is separate the joint and smack the PT in the groin with the upper steering column
 
2012-08-10 04:49:04 PM  

grinding_journalist: So, if deaths are decreasing, even when it's harder to save people after an accident, aren't the improvements in auto safety MORE important than being able to extricate someone after a bad crash?


Beyond a capable, undistracted, sober driver, crumple zones and a seat belt, honestly, what more safety "features" do you need? Beyond that, you're just making the car harder to get out of, heavier, more complicated and more expensive. But I guess we're asking too much on the human factor instead of weeding out the folks incapable of maintaining their skills, sobriety and attention span by revoking their privilege to drive on the public right of ways.
 
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