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(NYPost)   Woman exercises her Second Amendment Right by opening fire on an 11-year-old girl who threw a piece of chalk too close to her chicken coop   (nypost.com) divider line 255
    More: Asinine, Staten Island, exercises, Elizabeth Gelman  
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15969 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Aug 2012 at 12:49 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-09 07:01:46 PM

pedrop357: MightyPez: Empathy shouldn't stem from making shiat up. If there is any actual facts you can present to show an adult was reasonable when she fired a farking gun at a child for some thrown chalk you're welcome to give it.

Waiting for the inevitable "Well conjecture and hearsay are kinds of evidence" response.

The facts are pretty light here. We know she had a gun, we know the little girl threw chalk, we know the mom claims her car was spray painted and the bike was stolen. We know the woman was charged with two things-weapon and ammunition possession and let out apparently on OR (or the equivalent). We'll know whether she really was the shooter when the police do their thing.

In the meantime, everyone is pointing out how crazy this lady is and blaming the NRA and focusing just on a single piece of chalk and leaving it at that and I felt it necessary to point out this is also exactly how a lot of long running feuds between asshole neighbors sometimes ends up.

Conjecture is being used to suggest what might go into the holes in this story.



An adult tried to murder an 11 yr old girl. Let's stick to the IMPORTANT facts.

Wayne LaPierre right?
 
2012-08-09 07:06:02 PM

ARNOLD.HART: I recently confronted my neighbor after watching his wife throw dog crap in my yard and was very polite and he responded by slamming the screen door in my face knocking me to the ground, pulling a gun from his holster and shouting, "You assaulted me!" I responded saying my wife is videotaping this from across the street, cops are probably already on their way, shoot me and go to jail for the rest of your life, is it worth it? If it wasn't for his wife yanking him back in the house and apologizing profusely I would probably be dead or in the hospital. I have never talked to these people before so that rules out ongoing issues. I assume it's because they don't test people for mental conditions before giving them a gun permit.


Sounds like one vote for batshiat crazy. Tough to nip things in the bud when they go psycho when you talk to them.
On the other hand, it's obvious they have issues as they were dumping on your property.
The parallel to the news article is if the mother of the child had flipped out on the lady after being told her daughter was throwing chalk over the fence.
 
2012-08-09 07:08:20 PM

Burchill: The most amazing thing about the Second Amendment is that of all the peoples in the world, Americans are the ones you'd trust least with firearms.


O'RLY?
radioviceonline.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maersk_Alabama_hijacking
 
2012-08-09 07:11:52 PM

jmr61: An adult tried to murder an 11 yr old girl. Let's stick to the IMPORTANT facts.

Wayne LaPierre right?


It's not important to most posters in here as they're talking about gun rights, the NRA second amendment, etc.

The point of my posts has been to say that this is a lot like all those long time neighbor feuds over petty shiat that erupts when the more unhinged one does shiat like this. She's not innocent under any scenario, but there's a distinct possibility that other side are assholes too. Remains to be seen, but it's the case more often then not.
If this is a long time feud, I'd bet anything this isn't the first time that things have gone over the fence. Doesn't make the lady right, but does show why leaving people along can go a long way to prevent problems.

If she's bat shiat crazy and did this after one thing went over the fence, I'm surprised she kept it together when she was arrested, printed, etc. I would imagine high level crazy like that would be noticeable and call for an evaluation hold.
 
2012-08-09 07:22:27 PM

jbuist: Vegan Meat Popsicle: If there are really some significant number of responsible gun owners, why does the NRA, an organization that exists anymore solely to be a completely irresponsible blanket obstruction to even the most modest and reasonable of efforts to curb gun violence and keep firearms out of the hands of criminals and the mentally unstable, enjoy such incredible support?

When attacking an organization you might want to get their stance on the issues correct. In the aftermath of the Virginia Tech shooting the NRA lobbied for increased funding to make sure all mental adjudications got into the federal system.


Because they think the federal system is friendlier to gun owners.
 
2012-08-09 07:26:14 PM

pedrop357: jmr61: An adult tried to murder an 11 yr old girl. Let's stick to the IMPORTANT facts.

Wayne LaPierre right?

It's not important to most posters in here as they're talking about gun rights, the NRA second amendment, etc.

The point of my posts has been to say that this is a lot like all those long time neighbor feuds over petty shiat that erupts when the more unhinged one does shiat like this. She's not innocent under any scenario, but there's a distinct possibility that other side are assholes too. Remains to be seen, but it's the case more often then not.
If this is a long time feud, I'd bet anything this isn't the first time that things have gone over the fence. Doesn't make the lady right, but does show why leaving people along can go a long way to prevent problems.

If she's bat shiat crazy and did this after one thing went over the fence, I'm surprised she kept it together when she was arrested, printed, etc. I would imagine high level crazy like that would be noticeable and call for an evaluation hold.


You would be wrong. The presumption is that people are mostly sane unless there's something so dramatic as to indicate otherwise. And sadly, shooting at a kid who threw a rock at your chickens does not, in America, indicate you're totally unhinged. I volunteered as a patient advocate in the local mental wards around here, and the people in on involuntary holds had all done something not only dangerous, but also completely without rational explanation. (i.e., the guy caught breaking into his own car with his back, because God told him he couldn't use his hands to touch anything with an "o" in it, like the dOOr or the windOw.)
 
2012-08-09 07:27:17 PM

pedrop357: The point of my posts has been to say that this is a lot like all those long time neighbor feuds over petty shiat that erupts when the more unhinged one does shiat like this.


www.matewan.com
 
2012-08-09 07:32:10 PM

Gyrfalcon: pedrop357: jmr61: An adult tried to murder an 11 yr old girl. Let's stick to the IMPORTANT facts.

Wayne LaPierre right?

It's not important to most posters in here as they're talking about gun rights, the NRA second amendment, etc.

The point of my posts has been to say that this is a lot like all those long time neighbor feuds over petty shiat that erupts when the more unhinged one does shiat like this. She's not innocent under any scenario, but there's a distinct possibility that other side are assholes too. Remains to be seen, but it's the case more often then not.
If this is a long time feud, I'd bet anything this isn't the first time that things have gone over the fence. Doesn't make the lady right, but does show why leaving people along can go a long way to prevent problems.

If she's bat shiat crazy and did this after one thing went over the fence, I'm surprised she kept it together when she was arrested, printed, etc. I would imagine high level crazy like that would be noticeable and call for an evaluation hold.

You would be wrong. The presumption is that people are mostly sane unless there's something so dramatic as to indicate otherwise. And sadly, shooting at a kid who threw a rock at your chickens does not, in America, indicate you're totally unhinged. I volunteered as a patient advocate in the local mental wards around here, and the people in on involuntary holds had all done something not only dangerous, but also completely without rational explanation. (i.e., the guy caught breaking into his own car with his back, because God told him he couldn't use his hands to touch anything with an "o" in it, like the dOOr or the windOw.)



www.gethandbag.com

What her "God" might look like.
 
2012-08-09 07:50:32 PM
I don't really understand why anyone who isn't a sports shooter or hunter would want to own a gun anyway. And I guess police officers need them as part of their job now seems to include shooting people's family pets.

A gun is a machine used to kill things, so unless you're planning to kill someone or something why would you want a gun?

Some say it's for protection in the violent world in which we live, but I wonder how many of them have ever been in a situation where they needed to pull out their trusty killing machine to defend themselves? Somewhere close to none would be my guess.
 
2012-08-09 08:06:57 PM

Big Man On Campus: O'RLY?


I have no idea what point you think you're making, but the U.S. Navy has about 1/2 million personnel between active duty and reservists. That's about 16/100 of 1 percent of the U.S population.

That might just suggest they're not representative....
 
2012-08-09 08:37:25 PM
The thing about the NRA, gun nuts, and the internet tough guy rational that 'if the other person was armed, the problem would have solved itself' has one glaring problem: What if the 'bad guy' is a better shot? It seems to me that if everyone is armed, the ones who are going to start trouble for others are going to be homing their skills to ensure they are more deadly with their weapon.

Sure, if this 11 year old had a gun, she might have been able to fire back and incapacitate her attacker. But odds are this older lady would have had more practice with her weapon, and her second shot would not have missed.
 
2012-08-09 08:42:25 PM

ackb4r: "I threw a piece of chalk in her yard," Alexis said. "I don't know why."

Little shiat.

Anyone with neighbors who have bratty kids can relate to the desire to bust a cap at them. Of course, most of us only fantasize about it.


....Or the urge to ignore them, like a normal person.

/Seriously, do the people on Fark just hate kids or something? I've had the desire to smack a kid once, in a horrible situation with a screaming toddler, and even then it was a fleeting impulse. And I don't think that most people think that either.
 
2012-08-09 08:51:07 PM

Jon iz teh kewl: bluefoxicy: Jon iz teh kewl: i'd hit it

Dude, she's 11.

that's 3 in binary


But its 17 in hex, so its OK
 
2012-08-09 08:51:47 PM
I'm drawing a blank trying to parse this paragraph:

They ran inside and called 911. When detectives arrived, Gelman, refused to answer the door, Sharon said, adding, We could see her in the window, she was washing the dishes, pretending everything was OK."

Anyone?
 
2012-08-09 09:13:55 PM

accelerus: At the end of the day the chicken lady might be nuts or just at the end of the rope and should have her day in court. In the mean time I would tip my hat to her because anyone who has ever had terrible neighbors has wanted to do this. Maybe not to kill someone -- but sometimes the only things people understand is fear and paid. Sad really - but I bet the dumb kid never throws chalk into the neighbors property again.


Dumbfark. Seek psychiatric help.
 
2012-08-09 09:24:43 PM

Gyrfalcon: pedrop357: (Everything that follows assumes that the details of this story are accurate)

While two wrongs don't make a right, maybe if the little snowflake wasn't throwing shiat over the fence this wouldn't have happened. Respecting the most basic aspects of property rights would go a long way to curbing this.

Some people don't like being farked with. It's not like the police will do much if some little shiat is throwing small stuff over your fence, even at your animals. If the parents are dismissive, inept, impotent and don't make it stop, you're left with minimal official recourse and you get to pick up their litter so your animals don't eat it. Eventually you get sick of it, snap, and end up where we are now.

Not saying I agree, but I understand.

That may be the dumbest rationale for shooting at an 11-year old I've ever heard.


How brilliant would you expect the rationale of someone who broke a bike, keyed a car, and tried to shoot a kid - over chalk! - to be, exactly?

/Why are people jumping all over pedrop for trying to figure out and explain why he thinks the old bat snapped? He didn't say it was a good idea, just that it might make sense if you look at it from the point of view of the people involved.
 
2012-08-09 09:30:37 PM

stonicus: Seriously, we just need more guns... if the little girl had been armed, this would have never happened.


well, we wouldn't have to hear about the 49 year old [poorly] shooting at kids ever again.......
 
2012-08-09 09:42:58 PM

kg2095: I don't really understand why anyone who isn't a sports shooter or hunter would want to own a gun anyway. And I guess police officers need them as part of their job now seems to include shooting people's family pets.

A gun is a machine used to kill things, so unless you're planning to kill someone or something why would you want a gun?

Some say it's for protection in the violent world in which we live, but I wonder how many of them have ever been in a situation where they needed to pull out their trusty killing machine to defend themselves? Somewhere close to none would be my guess.


Revolver: Have one, don't really think it'd be useful in most situations I can think of, but there are a few where it could be. I firmly believe most gun fetishists vastly overestimate their ability to grab and fire it first, especially against twitchy tweakers and crackheads.

Shotgun: I live in an area where home invasions and forced entry are not uncommon. Having a boomstick is a lot more reliable than a golf club in that case, and I don't give a shiat if I accidentally blow away my wall or TV. Plus unlike the revolver, the shot won't penetrate enough to pose a danger to any neighbors.

Hand-to-hand martial arts: The only thing that can save anyone in a close quarters gun or knife threat, such as a mugging or carjacking, if they're determined not to give in. To paraphrase the old saw about cops, when milliseconds matter, your gun is only seconds away.
 
2012-08-09 09:59:16 PM

foxyshadis: /Why are people jumping all over pedrop for trying to figure out and explain why he thinks the old bat snapped? He didn't say it was a good idea, just that it might make sense if you look at it from the point of view of the people involved.


Because it never makes sense to fire a gun at a child? Hell it doesn't make sense to fire a gun at anyone unless you're in danger of being killed yourself.

pedrop357: If it was some long running thing and she did actually shoot at the little girl, she's still to blame, but not entirely.


And it might have to do with stuff like this, and some of the other idiotic things said in this thread.
 
2012-08-09 10:13:49 PM

bel4sucks: foxyshadis: /Why are people jumping all over pedrop for trying to figure out and explain why he thinks the old bat snapped? He didn't say it was a good idea, just that it might make sense if you look at it from the point of view of the people involved.

Because it never makes sense to fire a gun at a child? Hell it doesn't make sense to fire a gun at anyone unless you're in danger of being killed yourself.

pedrop357: If it was some long running thing and she did actually shoot at the little girl, she's still to blame, but not entirely.

And it might have to do with stuff like this, and some of the other idiotic things said in this thread.


It doesn't make sense to most of us. It's not right, but that doesn't mean it had no reason.

Assholes who aren't innocent sometimes find themselves wronged. They're the victim, they weren't in the wrong, BUT we all know they share some of the blame.

I don't believe this was a single event that spawned all of this. That's too far fetched. All over the place-TV, newspapers, anecdotal stories, etc. we hear about neighborhood BS that goes for a long time and culminates in something like this. We hear about he last thing that happened as if it's the only thing that happened. We get lucky if there's a followup that sheds some light on the surrounding events and then we learn that this was a long time coming. That's far more likely then a single event triggering all of this.
If that's the truth, then the lady is still crazy and largely to blame, but the family is not innocent.

If I'm wrong, she's a batshiat crazy person who snapped and perpetrated a series of events over multiple hours against a family due to a single instance of a girl throwing chalk over her fence (apparently) towards her chicken coops. That kind of crazy exists, but seems quite rare.

I really wish we would have heard from the neighbors or even her.

It's also worth pointing out that the police didn't have enough to charge her with anything but unlawfully possessing the gun nor could they find anything that might warrant any kind of hold for evaluation. I'm presuming that what they presented to a judge or magistrate was very thin because bail wasn't required.
 
2012-08-09 10:24:06 PM

pedrop357: It's also worth pointing out that the police didn't have enough to charge her with anything but unlawfully possessing the gun nor could they find anything that might warrant any kind of hold for evaluation. I'm presuming that what they presented to a judge or magistrate was very thin because bail wasn't required.


Yeah isn't that because they're waiting on proof to match the bullet to her gun? You can try all you want to pin this on the family with your "They must have done SOMETHING" but truth is, unless they fired first or tried to stab her/run her over/ poison her/anything that could have taken her life, she had no reason to fire a gun at anyone, especially in a neighborhood
 
2012-08-09 10:29:00 PM

kg2095: unless you're planning to kill someone or something why would you want a gun?



They're fun.
 
2012-08-09 10:39:37 PM

T.M.S.: That's attempted murder right?


NRA would send their best and get Congress involved, no DA would want to go that route. Especially during an election year.

If the weapons aren't legal, they'll charge her for that, otherwise it will be some sort of assault charge.
 
2012-08-09 10:44:08 PM

Gyrfalcon: And if the woman hadn't missed, would someone be here saying the old lady was entirely within her rights to "stand her ground"?


Well, yeah. Of course. I've already heard plenty of people around here defending the idea that you have the right to kill anyone who doesn't totally respect your property.
 
2012-08-09 10:56:24 PM
"She shot at me, but she just had bad aim." Best quote ever!

She was charged with weapons possession and possession of ammunition and freed without bail.
So instead of locking up this whack job, we take rights away from people who have done nothing wrong?
 
2012-08-09 11:05:21 PM

foxyshadis: Hand-to-hand martial arts: The only thing that can save anyone in a close quarters gun or knife threat, such as a mugging or carjacking, if they're determined not to give in. To paraphrase the old saw about cops, when milliseconds matter, your gun is only seconds away.


Martial arts are for healthy people, and even then its a gamble since you need to lay hands on your opponent.
Unless you've been jumped by a ninja, your chances are probably better with a weapon of some kind.

When you go down the list of things you can stick in your pocket to cover that:..

Pepperspray, doesn't work on everyone and has short range.
Tazers, one shot, unreliable, and expensive.
Knuckles, kubatons, need to connect fist with targets face to work.
Knives, also a contact weapon and can be tricky to use. Doesn't look good to the judge if you eviscerated your mugger.
Stun guns, again with the contact requirement and has a battery dependence.

...You end up back at firearms as one of the older and more reliable technologies out there.
They are cheap, simple to keep, effective and even have intimidation value.

There's a reason why the gun has built itself so deeply into our culture, its because it works and everyone (even crazy people) know this.
 
2012-08-09 11:05:29 PM

kg2095: Some say it's for protection in the violent world in which we live, but I wonder how many of them have ever been in a situation where they needed to pull out their trusty killing machine to defend themselves? Somewhere close to none would be my guess.


Just as often as I've had to use the fire extinguisher. Yeah, none. But it's better to have (and be capable with and aware of) a gun and not need it than to need it and not have it. A home invader is one of the most clear-cut reasons to own a gun. If you have your kids, of course do what you can to kid-safe your gun, but spend much more effort and time on gun-safing your kids.
 
2012-08-09 11:18:29 PM

ongbok: pedrop357: MightyPez: How does throwing chalk at a chicken beget understanding the escalation to damaging the kids bike, vandalizing the family's car, and end with taking pot shots at them with a firearm?

Nobody is going to argue kids do stupid shiat. I did mean shiat to animals when I was a kid. But who in their right mind would understand if someone unloaded a revolver at me for it?

Or am I just being trolled?

Not trolled.

It's probably pretty rare that a person does all this over a single incident. If she's batshiat crazy, then yes. That would mean that this was the very first time this girl threw anything over that fence and the neighbor went crazy. If that's the case, I don't understand. The scenario I alluded to was the ongoing neighbor harassment type, not the one-and-done that you presented.

If this is ongoing, I'd be willing to that this isn't the first time that something was thrown over the fence, AND I'd bet dollars to donuts the parents didn't like the chickens, the tent coop thing, or both and repeatedly expressed their feelings in front of or to the little girl and she did what some stupid little girls do and joined in the hate the way she knew how.

This lady is probably a little batty and 'bit' when antagonized and thus it began. I've seen that happen before and have read and/or heard about it a lot.

Did you read the article?

Later that day, a bike belonging to Ranieri's youngest daughter, Felicia, was damaged. The next morning, Rainieri found that her car had been keyed and spray-painted.

She filed a police report saying Gelman was the culprit because a neighbor told her she caught her in the act.

Then, at around 10 that night, Gelman, 49, allegedly opened fire.



This is why she took shots at the girl and her mother. Not because the girl threw chalk in her yard. Some people don't like having the cops called on them, and apparently she is one of them.


stop snitchen!

//am i the first?
 
2012-08-09 11:57:01 PM
Chalking the chicken?
 
2012-08-10 12:35:51 AM

CoysOdie: Chalking the chicken?


HA!
 
2012-08-10 12:36:46 AM

pedrop357: (Everything that follows assumes that the details of this story are accurate)

While two wrongs don't make a right, maybe if the little snowflake wasn't throwing shiat over the fence this wouldn't have happened. Respecting the most basic aspects of property rights would go a long way to curbing this.

Some people don't like being farked with. It's not like the police will do much if some little shiat is throwing small stuff over your fence, even at your animals. If the parents are dismissive, inept, impotent and don't make it stop, you're left with minimal official recourse and you get to pick up their litter so your animals don't eat it. Eventually you get sick of it, snap, and end up where we are now.

Not saying I agree, but I understand.


If someone punched you in the gonads for that post, I'm not saying I'd agree, but I'd understand.
 
2012-08-10 01:10:25 AM
Meanwhile in America, roughly 260 million guns were not used in such a deadly, dangerous, and irresponsible manner.
 
2012-08-10 01:11:26 AM

bel4sucks: Because it never makes sense to fire a gun at a child?




www.horrorphile.net

Sometimes it does...
 
2012-08-10 01:37:50 AM

pedrop357: I don't believe this was a single event that spawned all of this. That's too far fetched.


Ahh, I think I get it.

The idea that the universe is a random place where sometimes shiat just happens isn't something you want to accept. If something bad happens to someone, it must have been because of something they did.

The idea that a neighbor could just snap one day and open fire at a kid for no real reason terrifies you. So you've constructed a little story where this was the culmination in some family feud, so that the kid and her parents bear some level of responsibility for the shooting. You're like a primitive tribesman rationalizing a plague outbreak by claiming that the victims were all sinful people.
 
2012-08-10 02:11:49 AM
An armed society is a polite society.
 
2012-08-10 02:19:31 AM

Some 'Splainin' To Do: teeny: If I ever found out that my 10-year-old just arbitrarily decided to throw something into someone's yard, there would be hell to pay. I don't care if it was a harmless piece of chalk. 10-11 years old is PLENTY old enough to have a thorough understanding of how to respect other people's property. So that line from TFA, "I threw chalk in her yard. I don't know why" stands out as a reason to believe this little snowflake is a lot more of a little biatch than the article reported.

I remember being eleven. I was pretty much a model kid but, every so often, I'd do something completely stupid, and I honestly wouldn't know why I did it. That old Cosby routine about kids having brain damage is a classic for a reason.

So the fact that the kid inexplicably threw the chalk in the yard doesn't prove a damned thing about her, her upbringing, or anything else other than the fact that there are truly crazy people who will pull out a gun and use it at the slightest provocation, so try to stay the hell away from them and hope that none of them are your neighbors.

And everyone trying to "understand" the neighbor... you don't get to understand crazy. It doesn't work like that. If you do understand her, then that's an indication that you share her crazy and that you should probably commit yourself.



Yeah, I concede. While I still think that 11 is far too old to throw random shiat into someone's yard, if it were my kid that got shot at I'd still do my goddamned best to get the neighbor committed into a psychiatric hospital or something. If the neighbor had just called the cops or something (even over a stupid piece of chalk) it might have given the kid the scare she needed.

I'm of the 'why the fark do you need a gun unless you plan on being attacked by a wild hyena or something' variety. I worry about people who feel the need to bypass pepper spray or a tazer/stun gun and go straight for the firearm when all they want is to be able to stop a rapist or mugger. Obviously it's outrageous for this woman to have pulled out a gun, and it completely overshadows anything the kid may have done.
 
2012-08-10 04:17:17 AM

way south: foxyshadis: Hand-to-hand martial arts: The only thing that can save anyone in a close quarters gun or knife threat, such as a mugging or carjacking, if they're determined not to give in. To paraphrase the old saw about cops, when milliseconds matter, your gun is only seconds away.

Martial arts are for healthy people, and even then its a gamble since you need to lay hands on your opponent.
Unless you've been jumped by a ninja, your chances are probably better with a weapon of some kind.

When you go down the list of things you can stick in your pocket to cover that:..

Pepperspray, doesn't work on everyone and has short range.
Tazers, one shot, unreliable, and expensive.
Knuckles, kubatons, need to connect fist with targets face to work.
Knives, also a contact weapon and can be tricky to use. Doesn't look good to the judge if you eviscerated your mugger.
Stun guns, again with the contact requirement and has a battery dependence.

...You end up back at firearms as one of the older and more reliable technologies out there.
They are cheap, simple to keep, effective and even have intimidation value.


After I stopped concealed carrying, I did the pepper spray thing for a while, but it was also too heavy and awkward. If you think it's easy to fumble pulling a gun in a stressful situation, it's ten times easier to fumble a small nondescript canister with a tiny trigger. No way that was going to work, and I'm somewhat validated by living, what, 8 years now mugging free.

If I could legally carry a sap I would - small, easy to grab and swing in a single motion with a bit of practice, and no chance of bringing out upside down or anything like that. But this is California, where saps are outlawed.

The main reason martial arts works is that most criminals are stupid, and think that holding a gun to your head is way better than holding it a few feet back, and will be expecting you to go for a weapon or to roll over. Within arms+one step reach, about five feet, a trained martial artist can absolutely disable anyone not expecting it. Going for a gun in that situation only gives them the danger cues they're looking for, but you must be well trained and in practice or you're likely as not to be shot, just like you must be trained to shoot a gun well.

There's a reason why the gun has built itself so deeply into our culture, its because it works and everyone (even crazy people) know this.

In the frontier days, no one let an enemy else close enough to knife, club, or punch them. Guns were the equalizer at a distance. But in the city, you let people who look suspicious that close to you constantly, and you have to fight down any reflexes to keep from becoming known as antisocial. Guns are absolutely the optimal weapon at a ~5 ft to 50 ft range, but any closer than that and a gun can't do a damn thing for you before they fillet you, and most life-threatening situations occur within 5 ft. (Of course, in that range you're usually also facing a gun, so you also have to be a little ballsier/crazier than your attacker in order to fire first.) I agree that there is an intimidation factor, but if you have the time to pull it, there are also other alternatives that don't involve putting your attacker in fight-or-flight mode.

If nothing else is available, the second best alternative is just making tracks while making noise.

Still, the ultimate law of the universe always applies: shiat happens, and someday your card is going to be punched, like it or not. Enjoy it until then.
 
2012-08-10 05:04:18 AM

kg2095: A gun is a machine used to kill things, so unless you're planning to kill someone or something why would you want a gun?


A fire extinguisher is a device used to put out fires. Unless you're planning to set something or someone on fire, why would you want a fire extinguisher?

/also, why would you keep beer in your cabin if you weren't planning to attract bears?
 
2012-08-10 06:45:11 AM

Tatterdemalian: kg2095: A gun is a machine used to kill things, so unless you're planning to kill someone or something why would you want a gun?

A fire extinguisher is a device used to put out fires. Unless you're planning to set something or someone on fire, why would you want a fire extinguisher?

/also, why would you keep beer in your cabin if you weren't planning to attract bears?


I keep a fire extinguisher because I routinely set fire to multiple flammable objects in my home. I light my stove's pilot light in the morning. My girlfriend burns scented candles. I am in an environment where the probability of an uncontrolled spread of fire is significant enough to justify the presence of an extinguisher.

Unless you're a cop or in the army, I doubt you could say the same about guns.
 
2012-08-10 07:00:18 AM

KradDrol: I keep a fire extinguisher because I routinely set fire to multiple flammable objects in my home.


dl.dropbox.com

That is an unhealthy obsession...

KradDrol: Unless you're a cop or in the army, I doubt you could say the same about guns.


So why would non-arsonists want a fire extinguisher?
Maybe because trouble may find you even if you aren't looking for it.
 
2012-08-10 07:10:12 AM
FTFA : She was charged with weapons possession and possession of ammunition and freed without bail.

WTF? Owning a gun is a right guaranteed by the 2nd amendment. She shouldn't be charged for possessing a gun.

Attempting to shoot someone, on the other hand, is a crime. They didn't charge her with assault, or attempted murder?

And then they let her go. That's just wonderful. I'm sure her neighbors that she's trying to kill are glad she was able to come right back and try again.

If the kid is making a habit of throwing things at the chickens, she should get charged too. Quit being a dick, kid. That in no way implies that the crazy lady should be shooting at her.
 
2012-08-10 08:07:31 AM

JuggleGeek: FTFA : She was charged with weapons possession and possession of ammunition and freed without bail.

WTF? Owning a gun is a right guaranteed by the 2nd amendment. She shouldn't be charged for possessing a gun.

Attempting to shoot someone, on the other hand, is a crime. They didn't charge her with assault, or attempted murder?

And then they let her go. That's just wonderful. I'm sure her neighbors that she's trying to kill are glad she was able to come right back and try again.

If the kid is making a habit of throwing things at the chickens, she should get charged too. Quit being a dick, kid. That in no way implies that the crazy lady should be shooting at her.


Staten Island is part of new york city. It's illegal to own guns there without a permit (and good luck getting one...).
 
2012-08-10 08:35:48 AM

KradDrol: Unless you're a cop or in the army, I doubt you could say the same about guns.


The burglary rate in the United States in 2010 was 699.6 per 100,000 (DisasterCenter.com, as taken from "FBI, Uniform Crime Reports"). That, while not frequent for every person, is not negligible, either.
 
2012-08-10 09:53:05 AM
The real question is, where did she get the gun? Handguns are pretty much illegal for every citizen of NYC. I think the law says only business owners, security guards and police can own handguns.
The argument that crazy people shouldn't legally own guns doesn't apply here because she had the gun illegally thats why she was charged with weapons and ammunition possession.
 
2012-08-10 10:05:22 AM

KradDrol: I keep a fire extinguisher because I routinely set fire to multiple flammable objects in my home. I light my stove's pilot light in the morning. My girlfriend burns scented candles. I am in an environment where the probability of an uncontrolled spread of fire is significant enough to justify the presence of an extinguisher.

Unless you're a cop or in the army, I doubt you could say the same about guns.


Do you always put the pilot light out with a fire extinguisher? Do you always put out the candles with it? If not, then having a fire extinguisher when simple caution would do is no different from owning a gun when CQC training would be sufficient for self defense.
 
2012-08-10 10:37:00 AM
My house is along the path kids take home from school, if I flipped out for every piece of garbage they dumped in my yard I'd have enough grade school kids bodies to fill Arlington. Also I own guns but picking up some garbage every weekend seems like a more reasonable response then, you know, shooting people.
 
2012-08-10 10:48:18 AM
Uh.. that is obviously NOT exercising second amendment rights. That's called being a freaking pyscho!
 
2012-08-10 12:40:51 PM

Gunther: Ahh, I think I get it.

The idea that the universe is a random place where sometimes shiat just happens isn't something you want to accept. If something bad happens to someone, it must have been because of something they did.

The idea that a neighbor could just snap one day and open fire at a kid for no real reason terrifies you. So you've constructed a little story where this was the culmination in some family feud, so that the kid and her parents bear some level of responsibility for the shooting. You're like a primitive tribesman rationalizing a plague outbreak by claiming that the victims were all sinful people.


This is like someone trying to deconstruct a crashed plane dealing with people who really believe it randomly fell out of the sky (a stunningly rare event) and pointing out that some of the evidence bears a strong resemblance to specific modes of crash that might signal a specific type or subtype of equipment failure. We don't have enough to be sure. It certainly could have fallen out of the sky at random, but the details we have so far also look an awful lot like some of the evidence needed to diagnose a specific type of failure. I'm thinking, initially at least, this is indeed an equipment failure centered on this category and/or in this specific area because that's far more common than pure random failure of multiple components at once. We'll know more later.

My speculation that this is a neighborhood squabble of some kind is no more accurate or informed then the other speculation that this lady merely snapped over a single piece of chalk.

My point was that it's a surprisingly rare set of events that have to have transpired for this incident to spawn from one errant piece of chalk tossed over a fence one time. This whole sequence of events allegedly perpetrated by an (if the allegations are true) unhinged lady look an awful lot like the eruption that follows a long running neighborhood squabble.

How often does targeted person-on-person violence happen and it's found that nothing preceded it? One person targeting another specific person for some kind of violence without anything preceding it is exceedingly rare. It doesn't make anything this lady allegedly did right, just merely explains it and adds some necessary depth to the story.

Maybe she's genuinely batshiat insane and snapped after one incident. In this case, she's very good at hiding from the responding officers, booking officer(s), judge/magistrate, etc. We won't really know until we hear from the neighbors or her, and we know that she actually fired the gun.
 
2012-08-10 01:04:46 PM

pedrop357: How often does targeted person-on-person violence happen and it's found that nothing preceded it? One person targeting another specific person for some kind of violence without anything preceding it is exceedingly rare


it depends on how you define "rare". with media these days, we get news from around the world as fast as its published. the only news we usually get, from such a large pool of sources, are the unique stories.

did the people in the colorado movie theater have a feud with whatever his name was that shot the place up? nope. do we accept that this guy shot the place up? sure. what's the reason... he was unhappy.

I don't think that someone's mental illness/depression/infirmity is very rare. thus, I don't think an unprovoked shooting is ever rare. although, in real life, it is rare. but, it's not rare in the news.

/ I haven't read the thread, so maybe someone has some evidence of a feud. though that could be a cause, i would be more ready to accept mental instability, because that is much more common than blood feuds.
 
2012-08-10 01:07:15 PM

Gunther: pedrop357: I don't believe this was a single event that spawned all of this. That's too far fetched.

Ahh, I think I get it.

The idea that the universe is a random place where sometimes shiat just happens isn't something you want to accept. If something bad happens to someone, it must have been because of something they did.

The idea that a neighbor could just snap one day and open fire at a kid for no real reason terrifies you. So you've constructed a little story where this was the culmination in some family feud, so that the kid and her parents bear some level of responsibility for the shooting. You're like a primitive tribesman rationalizing a plague outbreak by claiming that the victims were all sinful people.


This almost works for me, except I've seen too many Neighbor Wars and I've worked in mental health settings too long. There's almost always a back story - but that doesn't mean the kid's family was to blame in anyway. There are really good people with Neighbors From Hell.

It was enlightening to read the discussion about the accuracy of various .38's, but really the accuracy problem here, to me, is more centered around: 1) older woman holding gun and 2) shooting while agitated. At a child!

I can understand shooting at the 60 year old pedophile next door when he climbs on a ladder and looks in your kid's window, and the police say he has the right to be on a ladder and he's not yet registered as a pedo. Still ought not to do it. But it's unlikely to end well.
 
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