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(WBUR Boston)   According to David Barton, everything you know about American history is wrong. Especially the whole "separation of church and state" stuff. Guess which political party he consults with?   (wbur.org) divider line 178
    More: Scary, Americans, texas gop, Oral Roberts University, WallBuilders, Trinity, secularists, expert witnesses, U S Capitol  
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2343 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Aug 2012 at 1:29 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-09 11:06:22 AM
Article 11. 'nuff said.

Article 11 reads:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],-and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

book it/done.
 
2012-08-09 11:16:29 AM
He says they prove that the Founding Fathers were deeply religious men
Some were, some weren't.

who built America on Christian ideas
Arguably, if you ignore those ideas aren't exclusive to Christianity.

"You look at Article 3, Section 1, the treason clause," he told James Robison on Trinity Broadcast Network. "Direct quote out of the Bible. You look at Article 2, the quote on the president has to be a native born? That is Deuteronomy 17:15, verbatim.
I was unaware those parts of the Constitution were written in Hebrew... What about the 5th amendment's: "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property", which comes from John Locke? What does Locke have to say on Religion?

"Locke, writing his Letters Concerning Toleration (1689-92) in the aftermath of the European wars of religion, formulated a classic reasoning for religious tolerance. Three arguments are central: (1) Earthly judges, the state in particular, and human beings generally, cannot dependably evaluate the truth-claims of competing religious standpoints; (2) Even if they could, enforcing a single "true religion" would not have the desired effect, because belief cannot be compelled by violence; (3) Coercing religious uniformity would lead to more social disorder than allowing diversity."

he claims that Congress not only published the first American Bible in 1782, but it also intended the Bible to be used in public schools.
I'm sure some members of Congress did. However, James Madison earlier wrote a essay against using pubic funds to teach religious opinions. Link

But historians say Barton is flat-out wrong in his facts and conclusion. Congress never published or paid a dime for the 1782 Bible.
Oh, well there you go. Lying for Jesus.

"And we're going to be told they don't want any kind of religion in education, they don't want voluntary prayer?" Barton asks his audience rhetorically?
Who has ever said they didn't want voluntary prayer? Yeah, that's just a strawman. Lying for Jesus again.

I guess it sucks that the founders never explicitly stated whether or not the government was founded on Christianity, so we are all left to speculate... Oh wait. They did. In the "Treaty of Tripoli."

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion
 
2012-08-09 11:25:11 AM
When I think David Barton, I think of the gym where all the insanely buff homosexuals go.

I don't care how you want to spin the founding fathers. Theocracy is a baaaaaaaaad idea.
 
2012-08-09 11:26:20 AM
No serious historian on the right or left (including Evangelicals like Mark Noll) takes David Barton seriously. He is not a historian and has no training in history or historical methodology.
 
2012-08-09 11:27:00 AM
My mother and I recently had a shouting match (well, she did all the shouting) when she started talking about the 10 commandments being removed from a courthouse. She was infuriated. I told her it made sense because of the 1st amendment. The courthouse is a government building, and it is inappropriate to be promoting any religion in a government building. And having a copy of the 10 commandments can absolutely be seen as promoting one particular religion. Then I quoted the 1st amendment to her, which pissed her off. And then she was stuck on the part where it says "CONGRESS shall make no law..."

Then she actually said to me, "What the hell does Congress have to do with a courthouse? Congress doesn't have anything to do with that courthouse!"

I tried to explain to her how the different branches of government work and handle different things while still being part of the same whole (making laws, vs interpreting laws etc) but she just kept yelling that this country used to have God's blessing and we've squandered it and we are/will be incurring His wrath.

After a while, I just stared at her and stopped talking. I simply could not reason with her. I don't even know why I tried.
 
2012-08-09 11:43:41 AM
Hee hee Musselmen.
 
2012-08-09 11:44:50 AM
TFA:

We looked up every citation Barton said was from the Bible, but not one of them checked out.
 
2012-08-09 11:46:33 AM
www.publicartinla.com

One of the Founding Fathers was Jewish.
 
2012-08-09 11:47:49 AM
 
2012-08-09 11:51:09 AM

Via Infinito: Then she actually said to me, "What the hell does Congress have to do with a courthouse? Congress doesn't have anything to do with that courthouse!"


Technically, it's also the 14th, incorporating the restriction to the states as well.

Via Infinito: I simply could not reason with her. I don't even know why I tried.


Because she's your mother; and if you won't, why should anyone else make any effort beyond waiting for her to kick the bucket.
 
2012-08-09 12:06:49 PM

eraser8: I've heard of that slimy c*ck hole: David Barton's The Jefferson Lies Voted the Least Credible History Book in Print


FTFA: A commenter on HNN's boards noted that the book "looks like an intentional attempt to mislead and decieve in the guise of history.

You don't say?
 
2012-08-09 12:09:51 PM

vernonFL: TFA:

We looked up every citation Barton said was from the Bible, but not one of them checked out.


You look at Article 2, the quote on the president has to be a native born? That is Deuteronomy 17:15, verbatim.

Deuteronomy 17:15
New International Version (NIV)
be sure to appoint over you a king the Lord your God chooses. He must be from among your fellow Israelites. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not an Israelite.

Wait, the constitution says we have to have an Israeli king?

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-08-09 12:48:14 PM

impaler: vernonFL: TFA:

We looked up every citation Barton said was from the Bible, but not one of them checked out.

You look at Article 2, the quote on the president has to be a native born? That is Deuteronomy 17:15, verbatim.

Deuteronomy 17:15
New International Version (NIV)
be sure to appoint over you a king the Lord your God chooses. He must be from among your fellow Israelites. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not an Israelite.

Wait, the constitution says we have to have an Israeli king?

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 330x282]


We also don't "appoint" a "king." We buy Presidents.
 
2012-08-09 12:48:54 PM
I don't have to guess his party nor his religion. Sadly.
 
2012-08-09 01:09:40 PM
"You look at Article 3, Section 1, the treason clause," he told James Robison on Trinity Broadcast Network. "Direct quote out of the Bible. You look at Article 2, the quote on the president has to be a native born? That is Deuteronomy 17:15, verbatim. I mean, it drives the secularists nuts because the Bible's all over it! Now we as Christians don't tend to recognize that. We think it's a secular document; we've bought into their lies. It's not."

"Ergo, we need to give Christianity special rights and privileges that other religions should not have in this country. And doing so will not upend the way we've been doing things in this country for the past 200 years. And I, as a Christian, think that's perfectly fair and just, and all of the other religions can suck my ass if they don't like it."
 
2012-08-09 01:21:13 PM
Normally, one comes to a conclusion based on evidence. This guy starts with the conclusion and then goes looking for evidence.

The worst part is that it is now up to everyone else to disprove his evidence when it's his preconceptions that are wrong.
 
2012-08-09 01:31:14 PM
Black is white. I've been saying it for years. where are MY bestsellers and speaking engagements (and non-fiction book groupie sex).
 
2012-08-09 01:32:26 PM
Silly atheists. The devil has obviously modified these documents to prevent us from becoming a strong Christian nation.
 
2012-08-09 01:33:30 PM
Awesome, now where was that loon who keeps insisting that both sides are the same?
 
2012-08-09 01:34:16 PM
"I almost wish that there would be like a simultaneous telecast," Huckabee said at a conference last year, "and all Americans will be forced, forced - at gunpoint, no less - to listen to every David Barton message. And I think our country will be better for it."

What the fark?
 
2012-08-09 01:34:20 PM
So.....this means that EVERYONE must go to CHRISTIAN church and worship Republican Jesus or be shot on sight.
 
2012-08-09 01:34:57 PM

xanadian: We also don't "appoint" a "king." We buy Presidents.


thewisecracker.com

Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here...
 
2012-08-09 01:35:40 PM
So how long before this guy is found at a truck stop wearing a wig?
 
2012-08-09 01:36:34 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: "I almost wish that there would be like a simultaneous telecast," Huckabee said at a conference last year, "and all Americans will be forced, forced - at gunpoint, no less - to listen to every David Barton message. And I think our country will be better for it."

What the fark?


Huckabee? As in, Mike Huckabee?
 
2012-08-09 01:38:18 PM

TV's Vinnie: So.....this means that EVERYONE must go to CHRISTIAN church and worship Republican Jesus or be shot on sight.


Believe it or not, I was raised religious. Deep Texas religious, too. And one of the 'biggest' things that they believe in is the imminent 'Christian Tribulation'. The time when real Christians will be persecuted and hated and hunted like dogs by the government and the Anti-Christ, who will be charming and adored and loved around the world.

I've since grown up and become an adult and laughed it off and found my own spiritual way in the world, but I'd find it amazingly ironic if their own idiotic attempts at forming a Theocracy doesn't backfire on them and end up with the fundamentalists actually getting their own little self-inflicted Tribulation.
 
2012-08-09 01:38:21 PM
[younevergofullretard.jpeg]

RTFA
 
2012-08-09 01:38:26 PM
Someone send him this

Highlights:
"the words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, Creator, Divine, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not even once. Nowhere in the Constitution is religion mentioned, except in exclusionary terms. When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) "

"Consider this: IF indeed the members of the First Continental Congress were all bible-believing Christians, would there ever have been a revolution at all?

"For rebellion as is the sin of witchcraft." 1 Samuel, 15:23

This passage refers to humans rebelling against god, a statement that establishes the precedence of unconditional subservience which is further illustrated, very explicitly, by the following two passages:

1 Peter 2:13: "For the Lord's sake accept the authority of every human institution, whether of the emperor as supreme, or of governors, as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right."

Paul wrote in Romans 13:1: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resist authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment." "


And of course what Weaver already posted.
 
2012-08-09 01:38:39 PM

Somacandra: No serious historian on the right or left (including Evangelicals like Mark Noll) takes David Barton seriously. He is not a historian and has no training in history or historical methodology.


This. I'm not even really a historian at all, just properly educated and decently read, and I still know not to take anything he says seriously. In fact, when he says something that agrees with me I tend to double-check to make sure I'm not thinking something stupid.
 
2012-08-09 01:38:46 PM
The only book you need for American History

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-08-09 01:38:51 PM
You look at Article 2, the quote on the president has to be a native born? That is Deuteronomy 17:15, verbatim.

Deuteronomy 17:15, -If this happens, be sure to select as king the man the LORD your God chooses. You must appoint a fellow Israelite; he may not be a foreigner (many other translations has it as "brother" vice foreigner" or Isrealite).


Article 2, Clause 5 -No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.


So aside from failing to grasp US history, he also has problems with the english language?


Somacandra: No serious historian on the right or left (including Evangelicals like Mark Noll) takes David Barton seriously. He is not a historian and has no training in history or historical methodology.


Unfortunately serious histoprians aren't influencing american textbooks as much as this assclown is.
 
2012-08-09 01:39:03 PM
Seeing that The Treaty of Tripoli was written between the United States and a country that no longer exists, Ottoman Tripolitania, the Treaty of Tripoli has been null and void since 1911 if not sooner.

Also, treaties do not rule The Constitution null and avoid either.
The Treaty of Tripoli is just a vague historic artifact with no meaning or power in today's US government.

Some more info if you'd like.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Tripolitania
 
2012-08-09 01:40:24 PM
Inspired by Christian ideals does not equate to "Christian nation".
 
2012-08-09 01:40:41 PM
Old (2009), but still a good read: The Idiocy of Texas and the Threat of David Barton includes special guest star Michele Bachmann. I am seriously glad neither she nor Rick Perry got anywhere near the White House, and I say that as a Christian. The more I read about this guy, though, the more I find him absolutely terrifying.
 
2012-08-09 01:42:03 PM

Kurmudgeon: Also, treaties do not rule The Constitution null and avoid either.


o_O
 
2012-08-09 01:42:07 PM

FarkedOver: The only book you need for American History

[upload.wikimedia.org image 200x295]


That book is grossly overated, very myopic and only important for people who have never taken a critical look at us history.

So a good choice for Mr. Barton.
 
2012-08-09 01:42:38 PM

Lando Lincoln: "You look at Article 3, Section 1, the treason clause," he told James Robison on Trinity Broadcast Network. "Direct quote out of the Bible. You look at Article 2, the quote on the president has to be a native born? That is Deuteronomy 17:15, verbatim. I mean, it drives the secularists nuts because the Bible's all over it! Now we as Christians don't tend to recognize that. We think it's a secular document; we've bought into their lies. It's not."

"Ergo, we need to give Christianity special rights and privileges that other religions should not have in this country. And doing so will not upend the way we've been doing things in this country for the past 200 years. And I, as a Christian, think that's perfectly fair and just, and all of the other religions can suck my ass if they don't like it."


My favorite part is how using the term "secularist" allows me to totally disregard anything that person has to say for the rest of eternity.
 
2012-08-09 01:42:45 PM
"According to David Barton"

I think I see your problem.
 
2012-08-09 01:43:25 PM

Kurmudgeon: Seeing that The Treaty of Tripoli was written between the United States and a country that no longer exists, Ottoman Tripolitania, the Treaty of Tripoli has been null and void since 1911 if not sooner.

Also, treaties do not rule The Constitution null and avoid either.
The Treaty of Tripoli is just a vague historic artifact with no meaning or power in today's US government.

Some more info if you'd like.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Tripolitania


Yes, yes, so because the USSR no longer exists, then the treaties regarding nuclear arms reductions are no longer valid?

That's adorable.

Okay, so. No one's saying that this treaty 'binds' the US into being a secular nation. What we 'are' saying is that this Treaty demonstrates the mindset of the Founding Fathers. That it shows in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that the US was not founded to be a Christian nation. That the Founding Fathers had NO problems with people who weren't Christian and that they were secular in their thinking and their design of the government.

It effectively and completely destroys the drool-cup idea that America was designed to be a Christian nation and that the Founding Fathers meant it that way.
 
2012-08-09 01:43:41 PM

qorkfiend: Philip Francis Queeg: "I almost wish that there would be like a simultaneous telecast," Huckabee said at a conference last year, "and all Americans will be forced, forced - at gunpoint, no less - to listen to every David Barton message. And I think our country will be better for it."

What the fark?

Huckabee? As in, Mike Huckabee?


Huck's a hardcore Dominionist. He wants to rewrite the Constitution to reflect the Bible(well, his Bible)

The Dominionists ride along as regular Christians don't speak up loudly enough to be heard above all the FUD people like Huckabee spread.

Sad thing is, if a Huckabee style Dominionist got his way, Catholics and Mormons would probably not be welcome here.
 
2012-08-09 01:43:42 PM

Kurmudgeon: Also, treaties do not rule The Constitution null and avoid either.
The Treaty of Tripoli is just a vague historic artifact with no meaning or power in today's US government.


It's no less relevant than half the crap this guy is spewing. If we're just going to go by the Constitution by its own explicit meaning, then he has already lost his argument.
 
2012-08-09 01:44:04 PM
"You look at Article 2, the quote on the president has to be a native born? That is Deuteronomy 17:15, verbatim." emphasis mine.

New International Version (©1984)
be sure to appoint over you the king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your own brothers. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not a brother Israelite.

New Living Translation (©2007)
If this happens, be sure to select as king the man the LORD your God chooses. You must appoint a fellow Israelite; he may not be a foreigner.

English Standard Version (©2001)
you may indeed set a king over you whom the LORD your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
you shall surely set a king over you whom the LORD your God chooses, one from among your countrymen you shall set as king over yourselves; you may not put a foreigner over yourselves who is not your countryman.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Be sure to appoint the king the LORD your God will choose. He must be one of your own people. Never let a foreigner be king, because he's not one of your own people.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
You shall surely set him king over you, whom the LORD your God shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set king over you: you may not set a stranger over you, who is not your brother.

American King James Version
You shall in any wise set him king over you, whom the LORD your God shall choose: one from among your brothers shall you set king over you: you may not set a stranger over you, which is not your brother.

VERBATIM!!!
 
2012-08-09 01:44:31 PM
How's it go again? If you lie loud enough and long enough, people will believe you?
 
2012-08-09 01:44:52 PM

impaler: vernonFL: TFA:

We looked up every citation Barton said was from the Bible, but not one of them checked out.

You look at Article 2, the quote on the president has to be a native born? That is Deuteronomy 17:15, verbatim.

Deuteronomy 17:15
New International Version (NIV)
be sure to appoint over you a king the Lord your God chooses. He must be from among your fellow Israelites. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not an Israelite.

Wait, the constitution says we have to have an Israeli king?

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 330x282]


Was going to post this.

Verbatim.
 
2012-08-09 01:45:57 PM
David Barton is a traitor to this country and to its Constitution.

I say keelhaul the son of a b*tch.

The USS Missouri won't mind a nice energetic belly tickle.
 
2012-08-09 01:46:22 PM

liam76: You look at Article 2, the quote on the president has to be a native born? That is Deuteronomy 17:15, verbatim.

Deuteronomy 17:15, -If this happens, be sure to select as king the man the LORD your God chooses. You must appoint a fellow Israelite; he may not be a foreigner (many other translations has it as "brother" vice foreigner" or Isrealite).


Article 2, Clause 5 -No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.


So aside from failing to grasp US history, he also has problems with the english language?


He knows his followers will just accept what he says and will not go an verify it. They will just parrot it back as fact, and if you show them proof this guy is wrong, they will defend him and not wish to change their minds.

Humans have a natural repugnance to being told they are wrong. I think a lot of people feel it is a direct attack on ourselves, just as violent as a punch to the gut.
 
2012-08-09 01:47:41 PM
encrypted-tbn3.google.com

Verbatim

encrypted-tbn1.google.com

Not verbatim
 
2012-08-09 01:47:52 PM

Kurmudgeon: Seeing that The Treaty of Tripoli was written between the United States and a country that no longer exists, Ottoman Tripolitania, the Treaty of Tripoli has been null and void since 1911 if not sooner.


Nice strawman you got there, the point of the Treaty of Tripoli apparently went over your head. The point is not whether it has the force of law, but rather it clearly demonstrates how the founding fathers (in this case John Adams and congress) thought about this country and religion.

You could also glean the same information from reading the Federalist Papers by the way, in which the reasoning and advocacy for the US constitution is made. In an explanation spanning a couple hundred pages, not once is there a reference to Christianity.
 
2012-08-09 01:49:00 PM

vernonFL: We looked up every citation Barton said was from the Bible, but not one of them checked out.


ohsnap.gif

Looks like he's a typical American Christian, then.
 
2012-08-09 01:49:06 PM

liam76: FarkedOver: The only book you need for American History

[upload.wikimedia.org image 200x295]

That book is grossly overated, very myopic and only important for people who have never taken a critical look at us history.

So a good choice for Mr. Barton.


If you think that book is a good choice for Barton, you haven't read the book.
 
2012-08-09 01:50:35 PM

impaler: vernonFL: TFA:

We looked up every citation Barton said was from the Bible, but not one of them checked out.

You look at Article 2, the quote on the president has to be a native born? That is Deuteronomy 17:15, verbatim.

Deuteronomy 17:15
New International Version (NIV)
be sure to appoint over you a king the Lord your God chooses. He must be from among your fellow Israelites. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not an Israelite.

Wait, the constitution says we have to have an Israeli king?


Uhhh. We're good then?
 
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