Serves those farking Commies right.

TFA: "The $43 million project begins as Vietnam and the United States forge closer ties to boost trade and counter China's rising influence in the disputed South China Sea."

If we'd spent the same amount to do the same thing 50 years ago we would have done a lot more to accomplish that goal.

Schlong Uzi: TFA: "The $43 million project begins as Vietnam and the United States forge closer ties to boost trade and counter China's rising influence in the disputed South China Sea."

If we'd spent the same amount to do the same thing 50 years ago we would have done a lot more to accomplish that goal.

Rome did the same dance, and that worked out for them, didn't it?

Article contains no facts or evidence. Does any actually exist? Heart-string-pulling is not a substitute for controlled epidemiological studies.

/Seriously wants to know if anyone has done a blood/soil concentration vs effect map in a serious, controlled way.

And I mean on CURRENT levels, not on some guy who got covered head to toe in the 70's.

If what the US is paying would be billions instead of millions, then the sum would seem ok. This way it is a joke

Its sickening that despite the Geneva Convention protocol we still thought the use of chemical warfare as acceptable given the circumstances.

AverageAmericanGuy: Serves those farking Commies right.

Is Vietnam even considered communist anymore?

It seems like we wasted a lot of blood and money there but we got a few cool movies made after the fact. Apocalypse Now and Full Metal Jacket were awesome, but I have to ask, was it worth it?

But I thought US foreign policy was humane and altruistic.

farkityfarker: But I thought US foreign policy was humane and altruistic.

For our job creators, it is...

Dammit, Obama! You're showing weakness! We should bomb Vietnam for making us look bad!

alex10294: Article contains no facts or evidence. Does any actually exist? Heart-string-pulling is not a substitute for controlled epidemiological studies.

/Seriously wants to know if anyone has done a blood/soil concentration vs effect map in a serious, controlled way.

0/10 Nobody can be this ignorant.

They're touring again? In Asia?

how to define and analyze the problem from a whole different angle.

alex10294: Article contains no facts or evidence. Does any actually exist? Heart-string-pulling is not a substitute for controlled epidemiological studies.

/Seriously wants to know if anyone has done a blood/soil concentration vs effect map in a serious, controlled way.

Since when do Associated Press articles show facts or evidence?

qualtrough: alex10294: Article contains no facts or evidence. Does any actually exist? Heart-string-pulling is not a substitute for controlled epidemiological studies.

/Seriously wants to know if anyone has done a blood/soil concentration vs effect map in a serious, controlled way.

0/10 Nobody can be this ignorant.

Perhaps somebody who hasn't researched Agent Orange? Not everybody bothered to read more about it besides 'It did bad shiat'.

Seriously people, be careful with that 'troll' card. Too damn eager to whip it out.

qualtrough: alex10294: Article contains no facts or evidence. Does any actually exist? Heart-string-pulling is not a substitute for controlled epidemiological studies.

/Seriously wants to know if anyone has done a blood/soil concentration vs effect map in a serious, controlled way.

0/10 Nobody can be this ignorant.


It's a rather predictable right-leaning response to dumping poison all over a people - demand some huge study they can't afford and cite the lack of such evidence as evidence that poison is not poison.

Here is some troll fuel: Stuff is not just over there. The authorities are afraid to dredge @ Gary IN and Waukegan Il for fear of dioxins, the precursors resident from its manufacture.

People of conscience were appalled at the time; imagine how powerful this material must be to have worked.

signaljammer: Here is some troll fuel: Stuff is not just over there. The authorities are afraid to dredge @ Gary IN and Waukegan Il for fear of dioxins, the precursors resident from its manufacture.

People of conscience were appalled at the time; imagine how powerful this material must be to have worked.


From what I know of Gary IN, it worked all right.

It's about time those Vietnamese man up.

/got my spine
//got my orange crush

FoopytheMoose: Its sickening that despite the Geneva Convention protocol we still thought the use of chemical warfare as acceptable given the circumstances.


American Exceptionalisim at it's finest.

It was a war we were not allowed to win.
Had a friend that did night patrols.
Would not travel any jungle for days after it was sprayed.

qualtrough: alex10294: Article contains no facts or evidence. Does any actually exist? Heart-string-pulling is not a substitute for controlled epidemiological studies.

/Seriously wants to know if anyone has done a blood/soil concentration vs effect map in a serious, controlled way.

0/10 Nobody can be this ignorant.

So, do you have a peer reviewed article that does what I've said? All I can find is stuff that the Vietnamese government themselves published, with no epidemiological data and seemingly no serious controls. The WIKI article, usually a good source for finding serious data in the footnotes, links to two Vietnamese government studies, and a BBC article that refers to the same studies. Consider whether you'd find it likely that Vietnam would publish a story saying everything is fine. That's why I was asking if there's any serious, peer-reviewed, well controlled epidemiological study that I could rely on.

If *I* was going to do the study, I'd take about 5000 soil samples, 500 blood samples, and 500 breast milk samples, say 100/10/10 each in 50 villages of 10k people or more. Then I'd separately (without knowing yet which areas had the highest levels), get the best data on all of the endpoints I'd like to test (cleft lip, retardation, etc) from each village. Then I'd do an analysis comparing concentration to the endpoints, controlling for poverty/other known exposures. If the Agent Orange was causing any of these, I'd expect to see a graph with a linear or exponential rise in those cases with concentration of the toxin.

Has that study been done by someone who doesn't have a financial/diplomatic stake in the outcome? It wouldn't be that expensive. If it exists, I'd really like to see it. I'm LOOKING to be convinced.

/Really, I want someone to show me good data, so I can be on the right side of this, either way.

alex10294: If *I* was going to do the study, I'd take about 5000 soil samples, 500 blood samples, and 500 breast milk samples, say 100/10/10 each in 50 villages of 10k people or more.

Actually, that would be the preliminary study. I'd raise the numbers a lot if it showed anything.

luktti:

Smarter than Dean Rusk and his whole brain-trust are ya? Define 'win.' The only successful occupiers of Indochina were the Japanese. Is that how we should have behaved?

After the war, the Vietnamese had the energy to liberate Cambodia from the Red Khmers and fight off a Chinese invasion for half of a decade, just sayin'.

This is after deposing the French colonials after 150 years before the war and once again after since the Americans so generously attempted to re-establish French rule after the Japanese occupation.

I feel alright, but I keep on hearing voices in the night...

signaljammer: After the war, the Vietnamese had the energy to liberate Cambodia from the Red Khmers and fight off a Chinese invasion for half of a decade, just sayin'.

This is after deposing the French colonials after 150 years before the war and once again after since the Americans so generously attempted to re-establish French rule after the Japanese occupation.

Yup, the Vietnamese are a tough bunch of SOBs.

Comes from fighting the Chinese for the better part of a millennium

farkingismybusiness: Everything turns grey.

You beat me to it. Although, i was going to say something about living in darkness.

luktti: It was a war we were not allowed to win.
Had a friend that did night patrols.
Would not travel any jungle for days after it was sprayed.

It was a holding action. We left when Kissinger bribed the Chicom off with Haber Bosch and tungsten had been sourced elsewhere. We never gave a fark about anything other than the resources there. Somewhere, I have a transcript of a US Senate debate about Vietnam which took place years before we actually went to war there.

It was all about light bulbs. Specifically, that tiny little piece of wire filament - tungsten.

Go figure that Sylvania and GE led the way. While they were billing the US Govt for billions in defense contracts, the US Govt was helping them source and secure tungsten elsewhere. When the Chicom took Kissinger's bribe and got Haber Bosch, our tungsten problems were solved.

See also: Phoebus Cartel

alex10294:

Ever seen the bottle museum?

==========

Viet Nam is losing 2-3 casualties/day from the land mines we so generously left them after defending them. Defending them from an agreed-upon national plebiscite for national reunification.

==========

The materials in Agent Orange were both remarkably teratogenic and remarkably stable. Great numbers of Vets and their children were greatly harmed merely handling the stuff. Being at the receiving end, it stands to reason, would have to be far worse.

//sucked in by a vile troll
//time for bed

We yell and bomb countries if we think they even have a trace of chemical warfare agents and 40 year later we're barely able to acknowledge our own use of it and the company who help make it puts genetically modified food on our tables.

USA-USA-USA!

Germany