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(Foreign Policy)   Governor Barbour to French millionaires: if you want to avoid all those new taxes your new President is proposing, why not move to Mississippi? No, I'm serious. Stop laughing   (foreignpolicy.com) divider line 397
    More: Silly, Mississippi, Qui veut gagner des millions ?, capital gains taxes, sustainable level, French citizens, wealth tax, income taxes, political base  
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1979 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Aug 2012 at 3:10 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-09 10:47:58 AM  

Hydra: This thread is yet another example of why our economy is still so woefully drab and why it's only going to get worse - because leftists/progressives like those so commonly found on Fark refuse to have an intelligent debate or be open minded about anything and are so ardently concrete in their ways of thinking that they will never change or critically examine it, and there is no amount of evidence they will ever accept as being sufficient even to begin to challenge their ideas. Ever.

Recognizing this and calling them on their bullshiat makes me a racist, of course.


In order for someone to have an intellectual debate with a rightie/republican they would have to be able to present an intellectual point to argue. But they can't because their positions are all based on superstition, ignorance, jealousy or just plain crotchety oldness.
 
2012-08-09 10:48:02 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: ok. 0bama admitted that raising taxes on the job creators is not a good thing to do during a tough economy, so he signed off on keeping their taxes lower.



Citiation needed. I want to see a quote from Obama a) using the phrase "job creator" and b) insisting increasing the rate of the top income tax bracket is not a good thing to do during a rough economy.

I'll go ahead and skip the waiting period because I know there is no such citation. Obama had to give into the GOP holding the lower and middle income bracket tax cuts hostage to maintain the upper brackets rates as well. Boehner and his minions are just stupid and partisan enough to actually do it, Obama had no choice.
 
2012-08-09 10:48:17 AM  

walkingtall: You can try and mix socialism in a little bit at a time and it seems to work but in the end it wont work.


walkingtall: max_pooper: I've translated your post to English for the "derp" impaired.

You can get mad at me and deny it all you want. I dont care how much you sugar coat it and try to hide it and deny it. Socialism is socialism and it isn't good.


Ok, biting.

Please tell me why. With specifics and citations supporting your accusations here.

I will wait with bated breath.
 
2012-08-09 10:49:48 AM  

way south: Money not collected in fuel tax, if I recall.
So we were paying.

But I look at it this way: you dont profit from eating the cheese in your mousetrap.
The owners were willing to put up with US laws, and spend here, because it was cheaper to tank here.
What was lost in fuel tax was regained whenever some guy bought overpriced jewlery for his mistress in a waterfront store.

When that enticement wasn't here, they would flag out of places like Panama or St Maarten. The regulations are more relaxed and the labor costs are lower.


So you are in favor of direct taxpayer subsidies to the wealthy, including non-citizens. How do you feel about direct taxpayer subsidies to poor and middle class American citizens?
 
2012-08-09 10:50:28 AM  

Serious Black: tenpoundsofcheese: farkityfarker: There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?

Do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?

In short, even Grover Norquist, the "guru" of what constitutes a tax increase and what doesn't, has no goddamn clue whether letting a temporary tax cut expire through a sunset clause means you are raising somebody's taxes.


Oh, I didn't realize I was speaking to Mr. Norquist. I thought I was responding to farkityfarker.

But I will try again, do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?
 
2012-08-09 10:51:31 AM  
"In 1848 Marx and Engels proposed that progressive taxation be used to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeois, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state. Although communism has failed, the idea of progressive taxation as a means of achieving social justice endures."

Yes it is a socialist idea. Granted the source of that quote is biased but the idea of a progressive tax is socialist. Others may agree with it but it is definitely a socialist tool.
 
2012-08-09 10:51:35 AM  
walkingtall, maybe you missed my earlier question, and if I missed your response I apologize. You said America used to have freedom. What freedoms do we no longer have?
 
2012-08-09 10:51:42 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: By all means, tell us more about Obama's tax cuts for job creators.

ok. 0bama admitted that raising taxes on the job creators is not a good thing to do during a tough economy, so he signed off on keeping their taxes lower.


If by "job creators", you mean actual small businesses and the middle class and specifically not rich folks, then yes, you are right.
 
2012-08-09 10:51:49 AM  

walkingtall: max_pooper: I've translated your post to English for the "derp" impaired.

You can get mad at me and deny it all you want. I dont care how much you sugar coat it and try to hide it and deny it. Socialism is socialism and it isn't good.


You have shown over and over again that you don't even know what socialism is. All you know is "socialism bad." That's not sufficient enough information to form an opinion worthy of even acknowledgement more or less respect.
 
2012-08-09 10:52:15 AM  

CPennypacker: Hydra: This thread is yet another example of why our economy is still so woefully drab and why it's only going to get worse - because leftists/progressives like those so commonly found on Fark refuse to have an intelligent debate or be open minded about anything and are so ardently concrete in their ways of thinking that they will never change or critically examine it, and there is no amount of evidence they will ever accept as being sufficient even to begin to challenge their ideas. Ever.

Recognizing this and calling them on their bullshiat makes me a racist, of course.

In order for someone to have an intellectual debate with a rightie/republican they would have to be able to present an intellectual point to argue. But they can't because their positions are all based on superstition, ignorance, jealousy or just plain crotchety oldness.


With some exceptions, like:

- Yuval Levin,
- Bruce Bartlett,
- Andrew Bacevich,
- Jim Manzi, and
- Reihan Salam.
 
2012-08-09 10:53:16 AM  

pippi longstocking: If you think that they would close their multimillion/billion dollar businesses, pack up and move their entire lives somewhere else because they have to pay a measly 3% more


You think they are paying a 72% marginal rate today?
(hint, you are wrong).
 
2012-08-09 10:53:46 AM  

CPennypacker: In order for someone to have an intellectual debate with a rightie/republican they would have to be able to present an intellectual point to argue. But they can't because their positions are all based on superstition, ignorance, jealousy or just plain crotchety oldness.


Nice debate tactic. Insult your opponent and try and portray anyone having a position different then you as either subhuman or simply unintelligent. Crotchety oldness, thats a new insult
 
2012-08-09 10:54:20 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Serious Black: tenpoundsofcheese: farkityfarker: There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?

Do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?

In short, even Grover Norquist, the "guru" of what constitutes a tax increase and what doesn't, has no goddamn clue whether letting a temporary tax cut expire through a sunset clause means you are raising somebody's taxes.

Oh, I didn't realize I was speaking to Mr. Norquist. I thought I was responding to farkityfarker.

But I will try again, do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?


I believe the point of my post is that whether the sunset of a tax cut constitutes a tax increase is in the eye of the beholder. Beyond that, if (like I assume you believe) letting a tax cut expire constitutes a tax increase, then technically isn't every single politician who has ever voted for a tax cut bill that has a sunset clause in it a tax hiker?
 
2012-08-09 10:54:43 AM  

Epoch_Zero: Please tell me why. With specifics and citations supporting your accusations here.


Because countries with no socialist policies and complete freedom are the ones that excel. Without the constricting noose of government choking off job creators they will inevitably come in to initially exploit resources, which invariably grows infrastructure to support the operations, which moves more resources and people into the country which enables service industries. Despite initial growing pains it's been proven time and again that countries which don't strangle business with regulation and allow people to succeed or fail on their own merit are the ones that rise in stature, influence and respect.

You know.... like Somalia.

/ capitalism on paper is not functionally different in ultimate effect from communism on paper
// it's almost like smart people realize you need to temper extremes and balance competing approaches to support the sorts of complex economic realities that actually exist outside of carefully managed thought experiments...
 
2012-08-09 10:54:44 AM  

Wendy's Chili: Taxes.


The Lone Star State?
 
2012-08-09 10:54:46 AM  

walkingtall: "In 1848 Marx and Engels proposed that progressive taxation be used to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeois, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state. Although communism has failed, the idea of progressive taxation as a means of achieving social justice endures."

Yes it is a socialist idea. Granted the source of that quote is biased but the idea of a progressive tax is socialist. Others may agree with it but it is definitely a socialist tool.


Wow. This may be the dumbest thing I'll read all week.
 
2012-08-09 10:54:55 AM  

Serious Black: walkingtall: Skleenar: If you think that those are our choices, then I highly question your comprehension of the problems we have as a country.

Of course it isnt our only choice. It seems to be the choice we have chosen. It is the choice advocated on fark. Socialism doesn't work. More socialism doesn't work faster then less socialism but it doesnt work. You can try and mix socialism in a little bit at a time and it seems to work but in the end it wont work. There might be ways to implement some socialist ideas without socialism such as progressive tax rates. Im not convinced that even that is effective. Im not a fair tax or flat tax person but Im not convinced even what appears to be benign progressive tax structure is a good long term thing. Etc etc etc. Fark advocates socialism in one degree or another. My point is that this is bad. It cant be good. To do so would trade freedom for fixes that wont work for one and will erode the one thing that is worth fighting for.

Progressive tax rates are a socialist idea? Are you seriously calling Adam Smith, the intellectual godfather of capitalism, a socialist? Whatever the hell you're smoking or snorting, pass some my way, because that must be some AWESOME stuff there!


Please see my translation above.
 
2012-08-09 10:55:01 AM  

walkingtall: Skleenar: If you think that those are our choices, then I highly question your comprehension of the problems we have as a country.

Of course it isnt our only choice. It seems to be the choice we have chosen. It is the choice advocated on fark. Socialism doesn't work. More socialism doesn't work faster then less socialism but it doesnt work. You can try and mix socialism in a little bit at a time and it seems to work but in the end it wont work. There might be ways to implement some socialist ideas without socialism such as progressive tax rates. Im not convinced that even that is effective. Im not a fair tax or flat tax person but Im not convinced even what appears to be benign progressive tax structure is a good long term thing. Etc etc etc. Fark advocates socialism in one degree or another. My point is that this is bad. It cant be good. To do so would trade freedom for fixes that wont work for one and will erode the one thing that is worth fighting for.


Socialism is not a blanket term for any policy that doesn't f*ck the poor.

If progressive tax rates are socialism, then Adam Smith, George Washingon, and Thomas Jefferson are pinkos. Read a f*cking book.
 
2012-08-09 10:55:11 AM  

walkingtall: coco ebert: Instead, we hear the discourse of people like walkingtall right and left in the political class and media. So I'm curious why people think this way and how such a view can be changed.

So you are saying Im dead set against better health care and transport options? Talk about a strawman argument. Of course I want those things. You are saying that if I disagree with how to get those things I am against those things? Really?


You didn't answer my question as to why freedom and better healthcare and transport are diametrically opposed. You said yourself the following: I wish the US had a better healthcare system. I wish we had better public transportation options. Im not willing to sacrifce my freedom to get it.

I take what you wrote to mean that you don't want better services because it would decrease your freedom. What freedom must you sacrifice for that? I don't understand.
 
2012-08-09 10:56:10 AM  

Fluorescent Testicle: walkingtall: [meaningless garbage]

Ah, auto-posted the wrong bot response before, eh?

Sorry, I don't debate with bots.


Bots? I was thinking troll
 
2012-08-09 10:56:26 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: tenpoundsofcheese: By all means, tell us more about Obama's tax cuts for job creators.

ok. 0bama admitted that raising taxes on the job creators is not a good thing to do during a tough economy, so he signed off on keeping their taxes lower.

If by "job creators", you mean actual small businesses and the middle class and specifically not rich folks, then yes, you are right.


got it. you think the middle class are the job creators and that cutting taxes is a good way to stimulate the economy.
 
2012-08-09 10:57:39 AM  

walkingtall: CPennypacker: In order for someone to have an intellectual debate with a rightie/republican they would have to be able to present an intellectual point to argue. But they can't because their positions are all based on superstition, ignorance, jealousy or just plain crotchety oldness.

Nice debate tactic. Insult your opponent and try and portray anyone having a position different then you as either subhuman or simply unintelligent. Crotchety oldness, thats a new insult


Its not a debate tactic. My point is there's nothing to debate. When the person you are arguing makes a right turn into derpistan, you don't follow him. You look for the closest human being and shoot him a confused look.
 
2012-08-09 10:57:39 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: But I will try again, do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?


They reset.

Maybe you should try concocting a real argument instead of trying to munge words to support a talking point.
 
2012-08-09 10:57:55 AM  

walkingtall: "In 1848 Marx and Engels proposed that progressive taxation be used to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeois, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state. Although communism has failed, the idea of progressive taxation as a means of achieving social justice endures."

Yes it is a socialist idea. Granted the source of that quote is biased but the idea of a progressive tax is socialist. Others may agree with it but it is definitely a socialist tool.


Just because Marx and Engels advocated that doesn't mean all tax increases are necessarily a Communist plot nor a path to total socialism.
 
2012-08-09 10:58:58 AM  
I've lost the freedom to be denied private health insurance because of my Type 1 Diabetes. CURSE YOU, FARTBANGBUS!!!!
 
2012-08-09 11:00:12 AM  

Epoch_Zero: walkingtall: You can try and mix socialism in a little bit at a time and it seems to work but in the end it wont work.

walkingtall: max_pooper: I've translated your post to English for the "derp" impaired.

You can get mad at me and deny it all you want. I dont care how much you sugar coat it and try to hide it and deny it. Socialism is socialism and it isn't good.

Ok, biting.

Please tell me why. With specifics and citations supporting your accusations here.

I will wait with bated breath.


Still waiting for those citations that prove your asinine assertions as truth, walkingtall.
 
2012-08-09 11:00:17 AM  

Serious Black: tenpoundsofcheese: Serious Black: tenpoundsofcheese: farkityfarker: There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?

Do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?

In short, even Grover Norquist, the "guru" of what constitutes a tax increase and what doesn't, has no goddamn clue whether letting a temporary tax cut expire through a sunset clause means you are raising somebody's taxes.

Oh, I didn't realize I was speaking to Mr. Norquist. I thought I was responding to farkityfarker.

But I will try again, do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?

I believe the point of my post is that whether the sunset of a tax cut constitutes a tax increase is in the eye of the beholder. Beyond that, if (like I assume you believe) letting a tax cut expire constitutes a tax increase, then technically isn't every single politician who has ever voted for a tax cut bill that has a sunset clause in it a tax hiker?


nah, I would say they are a temporary tax decreaser. (vs. a tax decreaser).

Switch it around. A bill that increases taxes but has a sunset clause would be called a temporary tax hike. Not, as in your example, a tax decreaser.
 
2012-08-09 11:00:40 AM  
So better public transport supposedly decreases our freedom. Who knew. WTF does everything have to be political? Why can't a bike lane just be a bike lane? Really, it doesn't need to be an ideological issue.
 
2012-08-09 11:01:39 AM  

someonelse: walkingtall, maybe you missed my earlier question, and if I missed your response I apologize. You said America used to have freedom. What freedoms do we no longer have?


I will give you one glaring example. For most of American history if someone owned a house and land it was very very hard for the state to wrest control of that from them because the founding fathers knew very well that true freedom started with property rights. Now there were provisions for the state to take land if needed but it was a long legal battle and the state had to give fair compensation for the land. You can argue about the Indians but the Indians didnt have a system for legal ownership of the land. We took advantage of that to our shame but once that land had a legal owner they owned it. Fast forward 200 years. The Supreme Court has ruled that states can now take someone's land to build a Walmart if it means more tax revenue. Or any other commercial use. The state can take your house and land from you for owing 50 dollars in property tax. We have quickly gone from property owners to simply renter from the govt. It happened so slowly maybe you dont realize just how far we have strayed from the original idea of land ownership being paramount and very very hard to take from someone.

So yes. I count that as a lost right and it is never coming back.
 
2012-08-09 11:01:58 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: PC LOAD LETTER: tenpoundsofcheese: By all means, tell us more about Obama's tax cuts for job creators.

ok. 0bama admitted that raising taxes on the job creators is not a good thing to do during a tough economy, so he signed off on keeping their taxes lower.

If by "job creators", you mean actual small businesses and the middle class and specifically not rich folks, then yes, you are right.

got it. you think the middle class are the job creators and that cutting taxes is a good way to stimulate the economy.


I can't tell. Are you trying to be sarcastic or are you actually saying something that is correct?

I really can't tell, are saying that middle class spending is what drives the economy and that a middle class tax cut is a much better way of stimulating the economy than reducing tax liabilities on the already wealthy who will park that money in an account instead of purchasing goods or services that translate into economic growth?

Have you really finally released all the crap you have been spewing for months is wrong?

I'm guessing you didn't realize you accidentally said something that makes sense.
 
2012-08-09 11:02:07 AM  

Wendy's Chili: If progressive tax rates areanything except an absolute divorce between government and industry is socialism, then Adam Smith, George Washingon, and Thomas Jefferson areanybody who supports even just a government-run military are pinkos. Read a f*cking book.


No modern military, outside a privately run mercenary force, can exist without dictating to some extent the manufacturing process that supports it. Anytime the government controls in any way the production process of any private entity that is, to an extent, a socialist policy.

Therefore, in the (feeble) minds of people like walkingtall/tenpoundsofcheese, even the U.S. military is a pinko-commie-socialist plot against private industry and all future wars should be fought at the discretion of and exclusively by private entities like Blackwater who owe no allegiance to anything other than the current default currency used on the international stage.
 
2012-08-09 11:02:30 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: PC LOAD LETTER: tenpoundsofcheese: By all means, tell us more about Obama's tax cuts for job creators.

ok. 0bama admitted that raising taxes on the job creators is not a good thing to do during a tough economy, so he signed off on keeping their taxes lower.

If by "job creators", you mean actual small businesses and the middle class and specifically not rich folks, then yes, you are right.

got it. you think the middle class are the job creators and that cutting taxes is a good way to stimulate the economy.


small businesses, collectively, are the nation's biggest employer. correct? that is a GOP talking point

According to compensation survey administrator PayScale in 2010, the average income of small business owners varies widely depending upon their level of experience. For example, small business owners with less than one year of experience in running an organization earn an annual salary ranging from $34,392 to $75,076. Those with more than 10 years experience, on the other hand, earn upwards of $105,757 per year.

Average Income by Industry

The industry in which a small business operates also affects the average income of his owner. Some industries pay far more than others. For example, entrepreneurs who owned electrical contracting businesses make salaries that range from $49,910 to $114,000 each year. Child care providers, in contrast, make anywhere between $19,792 and $61,674 annually.


Link
 
2012-08-09 11:03:05 AM  

Wendy's Chili: coco ebert: walkingtall: Glockenspiel Hero: Step back and ask yourself why you think the American way of life is automatically better.

For one reason and one reason alone. We used to have freedom.I wish the US had a better healthcare system. I wish we had better public transportation options. Im not willing to sacrifce my freedom to get it. You might be. Im not. Europe long ago traded freedom for welfare states. We are on the same path unfortunately. England is starting to reap the rewards of this with the ridiculou overreach of the government into people's lives. The rest of Europe is starting to follow. The most egregious welfare states are collapsing. That is just one small issue with European society.

Why do you think that having a better healthcare system or transport options LIMITS your freedom? Wouldn't that expand it- by making mobility and health more accessible? I don't understand this mentality, and I'm an American.

Taxes.

Some people think they're better off with an extra $24 in their pocket and no school for the kids in their community.


So such a line of thinking only imagines freedom as tied up with money, not with mobility or good health or even a more expansive notion of a rising tide lifts all boats, i.e. with a strong middle class we will have more prosperity across the board and thus a better way of life.
 
2012-08-09 11:03:55 AM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: tenpoundsofcheese: But I will try again, do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?

They reset.

Maybe you should try concocting a real argument instead of trying to munge words to support a talking point.


oh, "they reset" is not a munging of words? funny.

People's taxes will increase after the tax cuts expire, right? (or do I need to use smaller words for you?)
 
2012-08-09 11:04:13 AM  

someonelse: walkingtall, maybe you missed my earlier question, and if I missed your response I apologize. You said America used to have freedom. What freedoms do we no longer have?


I also hope he has citations for who thinks Europe is so amazing and perfect and of course if we are lucky, these death threats he received on Fark.
 
2012-08-09 11:05:39 AM  

walkingtall: someonelse: walkingtall, maybe you missed my earlier question, and if I missed your response I apologize. You said America used to have freedom. What freedoms do we no longer have?

I will give you one glaring example. For most of American history if someone owned a house and land it was very very hard for the state to wrest control of that from them because the founding fathers knew very well that true freedom started with property rights. Now there were provisions for the state to take land if needed but it was a long legal battle and the state had to give fair compensation for the land. You can argue about the Indians but the Indians didnt have a system for legal ownership of the land. We took advantage of that to our shame but once that land had a legal owner they owned it. Fast forward 200 years. The Supreme Court has ruled that states can now take someone's land to build a Walmart if it means more tax revenue. Or any other commercial use. The state can take your house and land from you for owing 50 dollars in property tax. We have quickly gone from property owners to simply renter from the govt. It happened so slowly maybe you dont realize just how far we have strayed from the original idea of land ownership being paramount and very very hard to take from someone.

So yes. I count that as a lost right and it is never coming back.


Eminent domain, such a newly minted freedom robber than it was included in the Bill of Rights ratified in 1791.

Try again.
 
2012-08-09 11:06:14 AM  

walkingtall: The Supreme Court has ruled that states can now take someone's land to build a Walmart if it means more tax revenue. Or any other commercial use. The state can take your house and land from you for owing 50 dollars in property tax.


They don't pay you or anything! They just kick you out and start bulldozing! Can you believe they also repossess your other property if you don't pay for it? WHAT TYRANNY!

walkingtall: So yes. I count that as a lost right and it is never coming back.

THIS IS WHAT IDIOTS ACTUALLY BELIEVE.

Land ownership isn't a right, you complete moron.
 
2012-08-09 11:06:43 AM  

walkingtall: False premise. They don't create jobs.

How do you figure? I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income. These measure penalize people with wealth and income. Not sure how you disconnect the two.


Let's say you work at a restaurant. It's the demand for food that creates your job, not the owner's bank account.

The people who buy the food are paying for your services. If they go away, so does your job. If the owner loses all of his savings in the stock martket, the restaurant will continue to operate.

Do you follow me?
 
2012-08-09 11:06:47 AM  

coco ebert: So better public transport supposedly decreases our freedom. Who knew. WTF does everything have to be political?


Certain idiots here do not understand that there is such a thing as positive liberty. They only understand negative liberty.
 
2012-08-09 11:07:31 AM  
Area poster passionate defender of what he imagines rights to be.
 
2012-08-09 11:07:47 AM  

max_pooper: tenpoundsofcheese: PC LOAD LETTER: tenpoundsofcheese: By all means, tell us more about Obama's tax cuts for job creators.

ok. 0bama admitted that raising taxes on the job creators is not a good thing to do during a tough economy, so he signed off on keeping their taxes lower.

If by "job creators", you mean actual small businesses and the middle class and specifically not rich folks, then yes, you are right.

got it. you think the middle class are the job creators and that cutting taxes is a good way to stimulate the economy.

I can't tell. Are you trying to be sarcastic or are you actually saying something that is correct?

I really can't tell, are saying that middle class spending is what drives the economy and that a middle class tax cut is a much better way of stimulating the economy than reducing tax liabilities on the already wealthy who will park that money in an account instead of purchasing goods or services that translate into economic growth?

No. I asked the person if they think that tax cuts are stimulative and if they think the job creators are the middle class. I didn't say only tax cuts for the middle class are stimulative. You did.

Have you really finally released all the crap you have been spewing for months is wrong?
No.


 
2012-08-09 11:09:55 AM  

max_pooper: Eminent domain, such a newly minted freedom robber than it was included in the Bill of Rights ratified in 1791.

Try again.



You dont read too good do you? I acknowledged eminent domain existed. It exists for a good reason. My point is that it has been expanded WAY beyond where it should be.
 
2012-08-09 11:11:10 AM  

Hydra: blah blah blah


Hydra, you are a gold standard kook. I don't think you have any right to be complaining to anyone about intelligent, open minded debates or rigid thinking. Like all conservatives, you are projecting: everything you have accused everyone else of doing is what you yourself are doing. Please kindly come down from your cross and fark off.
 
2012-08-09 11:11:53 AM  

Wendy's Chili: walkingtall: False premise. They don't create jobs.

How do you figure? I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income. These measure penalize people with wealth and income. Not sure how you disconnect the two.

Let's say you work at a restaurant. It's the demand for food that creates your job, not the owner's bank account.

The people who buy the food are paying for your services.

How did they get the money to pay for those services?


Of course people spending money is required for an economy. The people who took some risk and were paying people to do a job with the hope that they will get more money in return is a huge factor in how the flywheel gets started and spins faster.
 
2012-08-09 11:12:31 AM  

walkingtall: "In 1848 Marx and Engels proposed that progressive taxation be used to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeois, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state. Although communism has failed, the idea of progressive taxation as a means of achieving social justice endures."

Yes it is a socialist idea. Granted the source of that quote is biased but the idea of a progressive tax is socialist. Others may agree with it but it is definitely a socialist tool.


Adam Smith was a filthy socialist.
 
2012-08-09 11:12:44 AM  

coco ebert: Wendy's Chili: coco ebert: walkingtall: Glockenspiel Hero: Step back and ask yourself why you think the American way of life is automatically better.

For one reason and one reason alone. We used to have freedom.I wish the US had a better healthcare system. I wish we had better public transportation options. Im not willing to sacrifce my freedom to get it. You might be. Im not. Europe long ago traded freedom for welfare states. We are on the same path unfortunately. England is starting to reap the rewards of this with the ridiculou overreach of the government into people's lives. The rest of Europe is starting to follow. The most egregious welfare states are collapsing. That is just one small issue with European society.

Why do you think that having a better healthcare system or transport options LIMITS your freedom? Wouldn't that expand it- by making mobility and health more accessible? I don't understand this mentality, and I'm an American.

Taxes.

Some people think they're better off with an extra $24 in their pocket and no school for the kids in their community.

So such a line of thinking only imagines freedom as tied up with money, not with mobility or good health or even a more expansive notion of a rising tide lifts all boats, i.e. with a strong middle class we will have more prosperity across the board and thus a better way of life.


Precisely. People like Ron Paul don't really care about the downsides to their policies, their ideology demands abolition of the government consequences be damned.
 
2012-08-09 11:13:53 AM  
I'm thinking Luxumbourg is a more likely destination
 
2012-08-09 11:16:44 AM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Wendy's Chili: If progressive tax rates areanything except an absolute divorce between government and industry is socialism, then Adam Smith, George Washingon, and Thomas Jefferson areanybody who supports even just a government-run military are pinkos. Read a f*cking book.

No modern military, outside a privately run mercenary force, can exist without dictating to some extent the manufacturing process that supports it. Anytime the government controls in any way the production process of any private entity that is, to an extent, a socialist policy.

Therefore, in the (feeble) minds of people like walkingtall/tenpoundsofcheese, even the U.S. military is a pinko-commie-socialist plot against private industry and all future wars should be fought at the discretion of and exclusively by private entities like Blackwater who owe no allegiance to anything other than the current default currency used on the international stage.


I have no idea why you dragged me into this argument.
I don't know what extent you think the military dictates the manufacturing processes that support it. If what you really mean is that they say "here is a boat load of money, build my things this way or I will find someone who will" then I agree. No different than how any one with enough market power can determine how they have their products built (like Apple for example).

That is not a socialist policy. Not even close.
 
2012-08-09 11:16:53 AM  

Epoch_Zero: Land ownership isn't a right, you complete moron.


Good grief. All the strawmen. It is like a Wizard of Oz cosplay convention in here.I never said being able to own land is a right. Freedom from state interference in your ownership once you own land IS a right. It is a right we have lost.

And yes the state can come in and kick you off your land you have completely paid for when you owe and amount of back property taxes. Forcibly remove you at gunpoint from your home for owing just a few dollars in taxes. It happens every single day. That should be be able to happen. Tax lien I can see where when you sell your house you have to pay your taxes or your children after you die etc. We have gone WAY too far in how easily we let the govt take our land and homes from us whenever they feel like it. Do you really not see a problem with this?
 
2012-08-09 11:17:38 AM  

King Something: And don't forget your passport, since CH isn't part of the EU.


I know. I live in Bern. :)
 
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