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(Foreign Policy)   Governor Barbour to French millionaires: if you want to avoid all those new taxes your new President is proposing, why not move to Mississippi? No, I'm serious. Stop laughing   (foreignpolicy.com) divider line 397
    More: Silly, Mississippi, Qui veut gagner des millions ?, capital gains taxes, sustainable level, French citizens, wealth tax, income taxes, political base  
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1979 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Aug 2012 at 3:10 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-09 12:19:13 AM
FTFA: Perhaps Monsieur Hollande's leftist political base may be placated by skyrocketing tax rates on job creators...

Talking point terminology woven into the fabric of a fallacious argument followed by the argument that rich Frenchmen should take their ball and go home to Mississippi...pure pathological partisanship.

Will that mean we get to retire the ol' Freedom Fries terminology?
 
2012-08-09 01:17:49 AM
What, 198 felons isn't enough? Now he's pardoning the French for their opposition to the Iraq war, perhaps?

Wait no... that can't be right... he only pardoned felons from prominent Mississippi families, major Republican donors, and people with close ties to his friends and family. Silly me!
 
2012-08-09 02:32:13 AM
FTFA: France's neighbors have adopted different strategies to try to regain economic growth and return the costs of government services to sustainable levels. They have avoided large tax increases.

France's neighbors are doing fine except for Spain. Its the small Mediterranean countries with a much more minimal welfare state that are suffering (as well as Ireland and Spain, which also have a minimal welfare state.) Sweden, Denmark and Germany with their high taxes and large welfare states, are doing just fine. Quit lying.
 
2012-08-09 02:32:38 AM
Just because Mississippi ranks 50th of the 50 states in education is nothing to worry about.
 
2012-08-09 03:11:52 AM
Did Somalia try wooing them as well?
 
2012-08-09 03:16:21 AM
There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?
 
2012-08-09 03:16:24 AM
Da shiat you all go on saying
 
2012-08-09 03:20:51 AM
Yeah, leave that place where your taxes go to decent government services to a place where you'll pay less, get a lot less, and also have to deal with Republicans. Mississippi Republicans. Mississippi Republicans in Mississippi. With a French Accent.
 
2012-08-09 03:24:04 AM

farkityfarker: There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?


Yes.

On the flip side, if you have consecutive annual budget increases of a fixed amount and then decide to halt the increases, some people consider that a cut.
 
2012-08-09 03:33:01 AM
Because they don't want to be deported to Mexico when they speak a language other than English.
 
2012-08-09 03:34:28 AM

AKTurkey: Because they don't want to be deported to Mexico when they speak a language other than English.


Har har...
 
2012-08-09 03:35:18 AM

Phil Moskowitz: Did Somalia try wooing them as well?


I think they are waiting for the US tax avoiders.
 
2012-08-09 03:36:29 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: Just because Mississippi ranks 50th of the 50 states in education almost everything it's possible to keep score in is nothing to worry about.


Fixed
 
2012-08-09 03:37:20 AM
Worked for Toyota, eh?

"Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double that amount of subsidy. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment."
 
2012-08-09 03:41:42 AM
Welcome to Globalization, where there are only two races of people now: the Rich and the grist for their mill.
 
2012-08-09 03:42:15 AM

transplendent: Lenny_da_Hog: Just because Mississippi ranks 50th of the 50 states in education almost everything it's possible to keep score in is nothing to worry about.

Fixed


Hey, I'm pretty sure Mississippi is Number 1 in percentage of population with obesity
 
2012-08-09 03:43:44 AM
STDs: Link

Fatties: Link

Poverty: Link

Income: Link

Education: Link

Don't worry, Mr. Barbour. I'm sure none of the French job creators will do a Google search before setting up residence...
 
2012-08-09 03:49:01 AM
If you don't have the civic fortitude to put up with taxes that are levied against the rich, then you really need to get the fark out of your country and move somewhere that doesn't put such a terrible burden on you. But you should be tarred and feathered on your way out of the country.

Taking care of your fellow citizens is important, and taking care of the poor is good. Acting selfishly and running away from these responsibilities is disgusting and cowardly. So go to Mississippi, you French farks. Enjoy your hellhole of a state once you arrive.
 
2012-08-09 03:49:09 AM
Fortunately, there was a webcam available that captured one French-speaking multi-millionaire's reaction to the announcement:

i0.kym-cdn.com
 
2012-08-09 03:57:49 AM
Wait, I thought it was the "job creators" that created the mess in the first place? Who knew that the poor had so much influence?

/if you invite the Franks inside they will never leave
//those people are Barbarians
 
2012-08-09 03:59:44 AM

zerkalo: Da shiat you all go on saying


I see what you done did there.
 
2012-08-09 04:01:17 AM

Somacandra: France's neighbors are doing fine except for Spain. Its the small Mediterranean countries with a much more minimal welfare state that are suffering (as well as Ireland and Spain, which also have a minimal welfare state.) Sweden, Denmark and Germany with their high taxes and large welfare states, are doing just fine. Quit lying.


Indeed. Switzerland's economy is also excellent. With the Euro tanking around it, the Swiss Franc is quite strong and the Swiss National Bank has to take measures to weaken the Franc to discourage people from seeking it as a safe reserve currency (as a really strong Franc makes exports more expensive, lessens tourism, etc.).

Swiss taxes are not exactly low, and they have both income taxes and property taxes (which are applied annually not just to real estate, but to the net worth of people: stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. are all subject to property tax). There's also the VAT (~8%) on all sales of goods or services, a 35% tax roughly equivalent to the US capital gains tax, and so on. Cost of living is also high, but the quality of life is excellent.

Switzerland has a national, integrated rail system, excellent public transport in cities, a modern electrical grid powered mostly by hydro and some nuclear, essentially no crime, low pollution, a highly-educated population, etc. France is not too different in most respects. Mississippi can barely keep the roads paved, bridges standing, and generally seems to be populated by morons of the highest order.

If I were a French brazillionaire and given the choice between "stay in France, where my friends, family, business partners, etc. are located and pay somewhat increased taxes on a fraction of my gigantic wealth" and "move to Mississippi and pay lower taxes", the choice would be pretty obvious.
 
2012-08-09 04:08:26 AM
This whole discussion kinda tiptoes around the obvious.... if you've got that much money, you can afford to move wherever you want. Is the difference between Switzerland, Germany, and France, so stark that you'd pay a hundred thousand extra a year to live in France over either of the others?
 
2012-08-09 04:10:41 AM

Mrbogey: This whole discussion kinda tiptoes around the obvious.... if you've got that much money, you can afford to move wherever you want. Is the difference between Switzerland, Germany, and France, so stark that you'd pay a hundred thousand extra a year to live in France over either of the others?


But who wouldn't want to live in Mississippi instead of those places?
 
2012-08-09 04:17:25 AM
Is Haley Barbour secretly working for Hollande, because I can't think of a better way to make French millionaires and billionaires rethink their decision to leave. Sorry, but standard of living in France broadly exceeds the standard of living in the majority of the U.S.
 
2012-08-09 04:21:20 AM

Captain_Ballbeard: Welcome to Globalization, where there are only two races of people now: the Rich and the grist for their mill.


Well, you know, it's like Ayn Rand says: "What are your masses but mud to be ground underfoot, fuel to be burned for those who deserve it?"
 
2012-08-09 04:22:32 AM
Also, that's former Governor Barbour, subster.
 
2012-08-09 04:23:37 AM

Mrbogey: This whole discussion kinda tiptoes around the obvious.... if you've got that much money, you can afford to move wherever you want. Is the difference between Switzerland, Germany, and France, so stark that you'd pay a hundred thousand extra a year to live in France over either of the others?


I dunno. The French love living in their own country. It's not a place with huge mobility or that large of an expat population who leave to go live elsewhere. But of course, there is always that small number of the transnational capitalist class (like that Facebook investor that just dropped his U.S. citizenship for Singapore) who don't have any particular allegiance to any country and will gladly leave. I think they're mostly bluffing, though.
 
2012-08-09 04:25:17 AM
I remember hearing something about one of these southern states setting up a 'papers please' law like Arizona, and then a German car executive was caught without his passport. Awkward.
 
2012-08-09 04:44:18 AM
how about le "no, what are vous farking kidding moi? getthefarkouttaheah. eediot."
 
2012-08-09 04:44:58 AM

coco ebert: Sorry, but standard of living in France broadly exceeds the standard of living in the majority of the U.S.


The standard of living in France is comparable to the US. I mean, sure if you moved from the highest standard of living in France to the lowest in the US you'll see a big difference (like most of Mississippi). But do you think that someone who moves from the upper levels of French society won't find a nice place with a good standard in the US? Just about every US state has at least some area that shines. Hell, I could even name some places in Mississippi that have good schools, good jobs within a short travel, and low crime with a good standard of living if you've got the cash and job skills to buy into it.

Remember, we're talking rich people. We're not talking about a middle class Frenchman.
 
2012-08-09 04:48:18 AM

The Green Manalishi: STDs: Link

Fatties: Link

Poverty: Link

Income: Link

Education: Link

Don't worry, Mr. Barbour. I'm sure none of the French job creators will do a Google search before setting up residence...


We're also #1 in teen pregnancies.

/I have seriously heard people suggesting that if we all went to church more, this stuff wouldn't be a problem.
 
2012-08-09 04:53:16 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: Just because Mississippi ranks 50th of the 50 states in education is nothing to worry about.


So there are 7 states doing worse than Mississippi?
 
2012-08-09 05:02:56 AM
Get their menage a trois farking, se vu ple ingratiating , vino drinking asses to Bourbon Street. Nao!
 
2012-08-09 05:21:29 AM

Mrbogey: coco ebert: Sorry, but standard of living in France broadly exceeds the standard of living in the majority of the U.S.

The standard of living in France is comparable to the US. I mean, sure if you moved from the highest standard of living in France to the lowest in the US you'll see a big difference (like most of Mississippi). But do you think that someone who moves from the upper levels of French society won't find a nice place with a good standard in the US? Just about every US state has at least some area that shines. Hell, I could even name some places in Mississippi that have good schools, good jobs within a short travel, and low crime with a good standard of living if you've got the cash and job skills to buy into it.

Remember, we're talking rich people. We're not talking about a middle class Frenchman.


That's why I used the term "broadly". Of course rich folk can find themselves a suitable place in any country. However, I know French people and European culture and they have different standards for what constitutes the good life from the U.S. That said, I can't speak for the West Coast or much of the flyover states but having traveled up and down the East Coast numerous times and throughout France and being a social scientist studying the United States, I just think infrastructure and public transport, food culture (I'm talking about healthiness levels, not flavor), work life (including working conditions, paid vacations, maternity leave, and sick leave), the health care system, environmental awareness, levels of violence, imprisonment, and militarization of everyday life- all of these factors broadly are better in France than the U.S. imho.
 
2012-08-09 05:23:56 AM

coco ebert: Mrbogey: coco ebert: Sorry, but standard of living in France broadly exceeds the standard of living in the majority of the U.S.

The standard of living in France is comparable to the US. I mean, sure if you moved from the highest standard of living in France to the lowest in the US you'll see a big difference (like most of Mississippi). But do you think that someone who moves from the upper levels of French society won't find a nice place with a good standard in the US? Just about every US state has at least some area that shines. Hell, I could even name some places in Mississippi that have good schools, good jobs within a short travel, and low crime with a good standard of living if you've got the cash and job skills to buy into it.

Remember, we're talking rich people. We're not talking about a middle class Frenchman.

That's why I used the term "broadly". Of course rich folk can find themselves a suitable place in any country. However, I know French people and European culture and they have different standards for what constitutes the good life from the U.S. That said, I can't speak for the West Coast or much of the flyover states but having traveled up and down the East Coast numerous times and throughout France and being a social scientist studying the United States, I just think infrastructure and public transport, food culture (I'm talking about healthiness levels, not flavor), work life (including working conditions, paid vacations, maternity leave, and sick leave), the health care system, environmental awareness, levels of violence, imprisonment, and militarization of everyday life- all of these factors broadly are better in France than the U.S. imho.


I just realized the term "European culture" sounds both dumb and pretentious there, I just meant the things the majority of people there value vary from the U.S., where we put more an emphasis on individual liberty and freedom and bootstrappy ethics.
 
2012-08-09 05:24:08 AM
Walking into this tab. Again. And will get smacked by the libs that live here. Fully expect that,

But I have to ask. There has NEVER been a situation where the government takes the public's cash willy nilly and it works out well.

Never Ever.

Am I wrong? Or am I gonna get a bunch of crap?

I'll check in the morn' see what else shows up. But since this Fark, I have a pretty good idea.
 
2012-08-09 05:27:29 AM

ozarkmatt: Walking into this tab. Again. And will get smacked by the libs that live here. Fully expect that,

But I have to ask. There has NEVER been a situation where the government takes the public's cash willy nilly and it works out well.

Never Ever.

Am I wrong? Or am I gonna get a bunch of crap?

I'll check in the morn' see what else shows up. But since this Fark, I have a pretty good idea.


Thanks for highlighting what I was trying to show in my above comments.
 
2012-08-09 05:28:34 AM

ozarkmatt: Walking into this tab. Again. And will get smacked by the libs that live here. Fully expect that,

But I have to ask. There has NEVER been a situation where the government takes the public's cash willy nilly and it works out well.

Never Ever.

Am I wrong? Or am I gonna get a bunch of crap?

I'll check in the morn' see what else shows up. But since this Fark, I have a pretty good idea.


I don't think you have enough common frame of reference. Your question makes no sense.
 
2012-08-09 05:30:57 AM

heypete: Somacandra: France's neighbors are doing fine except for Spain. Its the small Mediterranean countries with a much more minimal welfare state that are suffering (as well as Ireland and Spain, which also have a minimal welfare state.) Sweden, Denmark and Germany with their high taxes and large welfare states, are doing just fine. Quit lying.

Indeed. Switzerland's economy is also excellent. With the Euro tanking around it, the Swiss Franc is quite strong and the Swiss National Bank has to take measures to weaken the Franc to discourage people from seeking it as a safe reserve currency (as a really strong Franc makes exports more expensive, lessens tourism, etc.).

Swiss taxes are not exactly low, and they have both income taxes and property taxes (which are applied annually not just to real estate, but to the net worth of people: stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. are all subject to property tax). There's also the VAT (~8%) on all sales of goods or services, a 35% tax roughly equivalent to the US capital gains tax, and so on. Cost of living is also high, but the quality of life is excellent.

Switzerland has a national, integrated rail system, excellent public transport in cities, a modern electrical grid powered mostly by hydro and some nuclear, essentially no crime, low pollution, a highly-educated population, etc. France is not too different in most respects. Mississippi can barely keep the roads paved, bridges standing, and generally seems to be populated by morons of the highest order.

If I were a French brazillionaire and given the choice between "stay in France, where my friends, family, business partners, etc. are located and pay somewhat increased taxes on a fraction of my gigantic wealth" and "move to Mississippi and pay lower taxes", the choice would be pretty obvious.


Mississippi? Hell, where I live in New Jersey (with some of the richest counties in the country) they can barely keep roads paved and the bridges are definitely in need of upgrade. It's not just the South.

We've funneled the wealth in this country to the upper-tier class and with income and wealth inequality comes the breakdown across the board. Hollande is in the right.
 
2012-08-09 05:46:09 AM
Why are we surprised that Babar would welcome the French?

4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-08-09 05:46:27 AM
fta: You might think that the purpose of the new and higher French taxes was to significantly affect the deficit. But it wasn't. Rather, writes Michael Birnbaum of the Washington Post, who notes that the higher income tax "raises too little money to make a dent in France's funding needs," the Socialist tax plan "is more of a political symbol than an economic measure. It will help give Hollande political cover."

Barbour is being an ass. Again. Pushing the "taxing the rich is cruel and besides it doesn't really help much" meme.

That noted, watching the French reacting to austerity measures by sweeping into power a socialist who promised to soak the rich while softening the harsher aspects of various austerity programs is rather interesting. You demand austerity measures from people and they will demand that the rich also suffer a little. Naturellement.

Found this part of the WaPo link the article linked to interesting.

Parliament approved a one-off wealth tax on people whose assets total more than $1.6million, and new taxes will raise$8.7 billion this year alone.

The one percent, once every ten years wealth tax is an idea who's time is coming.
 
2012-08-09 05:49:59 AM

coco ebert: We've funneled the wealth in this country to the upper-tier class and with income and wealth inequality comes the breakdown across the board.


And if there's any country on Earth that should know what happens when the wealthy completely dominate the rest, it's France.
 
2012-08-09 05:55:28 AM

ozarkmatt: Walking into this tab. Again. And will get smacked by the libs that live here. Fully expect that,

But I have to ask. There has NEVER been a situation where the government takes the public's cash willy nilly and it works out well.

Never Ever.

Am I wrong? Or am I gonna get a bunch of crap?

I'll check in the morn' see what else shows up. But since this Fark, I have a pretty good idea.


Various Scandinavian countries.
 
2012-08-09 06:04:55 AM

ozarkmatt: Walking into this tab. Again. And will get smacked by the libs that live here. Fully expect that,

But I have to ask. There has NEVER been a situation where the government takes the public's cash willy nilly and it works out well.

Never Ever.

Am I wrong? Or am I gonna get a bunch of crap?

I'll check in the morn' see what else shows up. But since this Fark, I have a pretty good idea.


your caps-lock baseless assertion of "never" and "never ever" and sloppy undefined vague use of "taking the public's cash willy nilly" are the two problems with your premise

never ever ever?

ever?

just more right wing blahbitty blah herpaderp
 
2012-08-09 06:07:37 AM

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Lenny_da_Hog: Just because Mississippi ranks 50th of the 50 states in education is nothing to worry about.

So there are 7 states doing worse than Mississippi?


wow is that funny

or what

/never gets old. Never Ever!

/ever
 
2012-08-09 06:09:22 AM

Fluorescent Testicle: coco ebert: We've funneled the wealth in this country to the upper-tier class and with income and wealth inequality comes the breakdown across the board.

And if there's any country on Earth that should know what happens when the wealthy completely dominate the rest, it's France.


Heh. Yup.
 
2012-08-09 06:19:25 AM

coco ebert: Fluorescent Testicle: coco ebert: We've funneled the wealth in this country to the upper-tier class and with income and wealth inequality comes the breakdown across the board.

And if there's any country on Earth that should know what happens when the wealthy completely dominate the rest, it's France.

Heh. Yup.


'Do you hear the people sing, singing the songs of angry men..'
 
2012-08-09 06:20:41 AM
cache.gawkerassets.com
I'd rather be dead in France than alive in Mississippi
 
2012-08-09 06:21:49 AM

hillbillymatt: I am going to walk into this thread, take a giant shiat all over it, and then come back in the morning to see who dug through it.


Thanks for warning us -- now we don't have to read your posts anymore.
 
2012-08-09 06:31:22 AM

James F. Campbell: Thanks for warning us -- now we don't have to read your posts anymore.


What, you haven't plonked that moron yet? Even his profile can be summed up with "[LIBSLIBSLIBS.jpg]."
 
mhd
2012-08-09 06:37:46 AM
This sounds like the premise of a Louis de Funès movie.
 
2012-08-09 06:40:39 AM
I think its one of those situations that will play itself out and show who was right in a decade.

Sucking all the money into government coffers doesn't guarantee its going to be spent effectively. While You may not be collecting taxes from the rich man in town, that doesn't mean he isn't buying a number of services and products from around that place.
Ideally I would want to create a situation where rich people live and spend their wealth among citizens I can also tax.
The trouble is in making sure they don't sit on their money, unfairly influence the government, or outsource valuable business. All things that could be dealt with by means other than taxation.

Going for the neck of the golden goose isn't always the best way to wring eggs out of it.
 
2012-08-09 06:40:51 AM

ozarkmatt: Walking into this tab. Again. And will get smacked by the libs that live here. Fully expect that,

But I have to ask. There has NEVER been a situation where the government takes the public's cash willy nilly and it works out well.

Never Ever.

Am I wrong? Or am I gonna get a bunch of crap?

I'll check in the morn' see what else shows up. But since this Fark, I have a pretty good idea.


Ever hear this one: Better to remain quiet and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt?

Yeah.
 
2012-08-09 06:40:57 AM
(looks at the actual link) Oh Christ, it's written by Barbour, and he's telling tall tales about 'job creators'. No, those billionaires aren't the source of jobs, they're a burden on whatever economy they sucked their money out of.
 
2012-08-09 06:42:13 AM

way south: All things that could be dealt with by means other than taxation.


Such as?
 
2012-08-09 06:45:36 AM

Alphax: I remember hearing something about one of these southern states setting up a 'papers please' law like Arizona, and then a German car executive was caught without his passport. Awkward.


It was Alabama, and the executives were from Mercedes and Honda.

"Just 12 days after a Mercedes-Benz executive was arrested and briefly jailed in Tuscaloosa for not having his driver's license with him.

Now it's happened again.

On Wednesday, Ichiro Yada, a Japanese national working on assignment at Honda's assembly plant in Lincoln, Alabama, was stopped at a traffic checkpoint where officers checked drivers' licenses in an attempt to catch unlicensed drivers.

Yada showed the officers a passport, a U.S. work permit, and a valid international driver's license. Despite that, he was issued a ticket--which was dismissed three days later by a judge, presumably at the request of embarrassed city officials"

Link
 
2012-08-09 06:50:15 AM

Alphax: (looks at the actual link) Oh Christ, it's written by Barbour, and he's telling tall tales about 'job creators'. No, those billionaires aren't the source of jobs, they're a burden on whatever economy they sucked their money out of.


Barbour is a pulsating cyst in the armpit of commentary.
 
2012-08-09 06:50:16 AM
Yeah, the French are going to flock to Mississippi... *rolls eyes*
 
2012-08-09 06:50:45 AM

farkityfarker: There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?


You're joking, right? When tax rates go up, that's a tax increase.

On the other hand, all you libs who want the rich to pay 'their fair shareTM' should be packing up and heading for Gay Paris. It'll be Utopia in no time at all!
 
2012-08-09 06:52:54 AM
A good fence and gun tower will keep those unpatriotic French from escaping.
images.motorcycle-usa.com
 
2012-08-09 06:53:31 AM

Fluorescent Testicle: What, you haven't plonked that moron yet? Even his profile can be summed up with "[LIBSLIBSLIBS.jpg]."


I do now. Never had the misfortune of meeting him before.
 
2012-08-09 06:55:36 AM

shotglasss: You're joking, right? When tax rates go up, that's a tax increase.


And when the tax rates are temporarily lowered, that's temporary.
 
2012-08-09 06:58:26 AM

way south: Going for the neck of the golden goose isn't always the best way to wring eggs out of it.


Why not? The Republican chicken-farking hasn't had any results besides them standing around with their hootuses covered in blood, spooge, and feathers.
 
2012-08-09 07:02:18 AM

shotglasss: farkityfarker: There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?

You're joking, right? When tax rates go up, that's a tax increase.

On the other hand, all you libs who want the rich to pay 'their fair shareTM' should be packing up and heading for Gay Paris. It'll be Utopia in no time at all!


Ahhhh, the people who will never ever be rich,who don't even make enough to pay income tax, defending their masters, hoping for some crumbs from the table. Good little slave! Enjoy YOUR tax increases when Romney gets elected. You know, so you have some skin in the game

/you did forget to complain about unions
//Also you've obviously never been to Paris.
 
2012-08-09 07:06:26 AM
Explains why so many Marylanders live in Palm Beach.

A new report says wealthy Maryland residents may be moving out due to recent tax hikes - a finding that is sure to escalate the battle over taxing the American rich.

The study, by the anti-tax group Change Maryland, says that a net 31,000 residents left the state between 2007 and 2010, the tenure of a "millionaire's tax" pushed through by Gov. Martin O'Malley. The tax, which expired in 2010, in imposed a rate of 6.25 percent on incomes of more than $1 million a year.
 
2012-08-09 07:07:50 AM
Go for it.
Discover that rich, non-contributing parasites (example - Donald Trump) cost society what a thousand "welfare bums" do.
Profit?
 
2012-08-09 07:09:58 AM
1. Foreign country has election.
2. Elected candidate and controlling party does exactly what he said he would do.
3. GOP whines.

"Elections have consequences."
- House Speaker John Boehner

Republicans aren't big fans of democracy.
 
2012-08-09 07:31:27 AM
I just love this fantasy these teabagger retards have that hyper wealthy people are going to pick and move from Paris/Manhattan/where ever with their wives, kids, and mistresses to live amongst them in their shiat heel states and leave behind the cultural and business hubs of the planet.

Maybe tout the number of chik-fil-a's you have per capita?
 
2012-08-09 07:37:12 AM

HotWingConspiracy: I just love this fantasy these teabagger retards have that hyper wealthy people are going to pick and move from Paris/Manhattan/where ever with their wives, kids, and mistresses to live amongst them in their shiat heel states and leave behind the cultural and business hubs of the planet.

Maybe tout the number of chik-fil-a's you have per capita?


And the only way any of the wealth would 'trickle down' to the community would be in tax form.. which Republicans are against.
 
2012-08-09 07:37:22 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: Worked for Toyota, eh?

"Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double that amount of subsidy. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment."


i3.kym-cdn.com
 
2012-08-09 07:46:12 AM

smitty04: Lenny_da_Hog: Worked for Toyota, eh?

"Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double that amount of subsidy. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment."

[i3.kym-cdn.com image 150x134]


Ignorant people are a race now?
 
2012-08-09 07:47:52 AM
Phil Moskowitz: Did Somalia try wooing them as well?

Ha! There's the response I was looking for. Seriously, how farking retarded is Barbour? Or do all Republicans think that low taxes are the only important thing on earth, and that moving from, say... the Latin Quarter in Paris to Dipsh#t, Mississippi in order to save a little tax money would be an obviously good decision?
 
2012-08-09 07:48:51 AM

keylock71: smitty04: Lenny_da_Hog: Worked for Toyota, eh?

"Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double that amount of subsidy. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment."

[i3.kym-cdn.com image 150x134]

Ignorant people are a race now?


Yes. AKA working class republicans
 
2012-08-09 07:49:51 AM

keylock71: smitty04: Lenny_da_Hog: Worked for Toyota, eh?

"Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double that amount of subsidy. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment."

[i3.kym-cdn.com image 150x134]

Ignorant people are a race now?


Yeah - a race to the bottom.
 
2012-08-09 07:51:04 AM
Does anyone believe that millionaires and billionaires really pay such high taxes? Yes, on paper it may seem they pay a shocking amount of taxes but in reality they have accountants that find so many loopholes and write offs that they usually pay a fraction of that.

If these people actually paid what they were supposed to do, that is, the current tax percentage rather than the potential one, I think financial state of the world, especially in the US, would be very different.

So, try as I might, I can't bring myself to feel sorry for these people.
 
2012-08-09 07:54:43 AM

heypete: way south: All things that could be dealt with by means other than taxation.

Such as?


I'm not big on economics, but I could suggest benefits for opening local businesses and buying those services. Add penalties for outsourcing and tariffs on imported goods. Reward rich people for putting money into the local banks and venture capital by decreasing taxes a tad further. Similarly you can encourage them to revitalize old buildings in troubled parts of town by letting them write off some of the cost. This brings infrastructure fixes and more business. Let them get benefits for training the permanent residents in needed skills, those skill sets help locals start more businesses.

If we believe that wealth attracts wealth, attracting the wealthy from some other nation is a beneficial thing because trickle down theory works, to a point.
You just need to know how to milk the rich and their sycophants in other ways.

/if they only speak French, you'd be developing quite a bit of work for translation services alone.
/and you can assume they'll do a lot of traveling, which is good for the ports.
 
2012-08-09 07:56:58 AM

mekki: Does anyone believe that millionaires and billionaires really pay such high taxes? Yes, on paper it may seem they pay a shocking amount of taxes but in reality they have accountants that find so many loopholes and write offs that they usually pay a fraction of that.


Anyone with half a brain knows that they don't pay those rates. It's just like the argument that we have the highest corporate income tax rate on the planet. They totally neglect to mention the single digit tax rates (or even no income taxes at all) that the largest corporations often pay.
 
2012-08-09 07:57:03 AM

jso2897: keylock71: smitty04: Lenny_da_Hog: Worked for Toyota, eh?

"Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double that amount of subsidy. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment."

[i3.kym-cdn.com image 150x134]

Ignorant people are a race now?

Yeah - a race to the bottom.


Heh...

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
 
2012-08-09 08:09:53 AM
I thought patriots hated the French.

Oh wait millionaires, got it.

They aren't even Americans and Republicans want to cut their taxes just because they are millionaires. Its really fascinating.
 
2012-08-09 08:10:50 AM
Mississippi? No. Louisiana? Maybe.
 
2012-08-09 08:12:26 AM

way south: heypete: way south: All things that could be dealt with by means other than taxation.

Such as?

I'm not big on economics, but I could suggest benefits for opening local businesses and buying those services. Add penalties for outsourcing and tariffs on imported goods. Reward rich people for putting money into the local banks and venture capital by decreasing taxes a tad further. Similarly you can encourage them to revitalize old buildings in troubled parts of town by letting them write off some of the cost. This brings infrastructure fixes and more business. Let them get benefits for training the permanent residents in needed skills, those skill sets help locals start more businesses.

If we believe that wealth attracts wealth, attracting the wealthy from some other nation is a beneficial thing because trickle down theory works, to a point.
You just need to know how to milk the rich and their sycophants in other ways.

/if they only speak French, you'd be developing quite a bit of work for translation services alone.
/and you can assume they'll do a lot of traveling, which is good for the ports.


Translation: "tax cuts for job creatin' job creators."

Meanwhile: "ZOMG millions pay no [income] taxes, tax them!"
 
2012-08-09 08:12:54 AM
French Millionaires: "Uh, no thanks. We've seen your healthcare system. We'd rather stick with the best one in the world. And you people are completely insane over there."
 
2012-08-09 08:14:37 AM

mekki: Does anyone believe that millionaires and billionaires really pay such high taxes? Yes, on paper it may seem they pay a shocking amount of taxes but in reality they have accountants that find so many loopholes and write offs that they usually pay a fraction of that.

If these people actually paid what they were supposed to do, that is, the current tax percentage rather than the potential one, I think financial state of the world, especially in the US, would be very different.

So, try as I might, I can't bring myself to feel sorry for these people.



I wonder if an studies have been done to support the idea that most of the rich actually create jobs. How does that work out?

How do tax breaks on personal income lead to jobs? Sure they could hire more gardeners, personal assistants, etc.... but law of diminishing returns. What are the chances that they will just tuck that money away in a bank with the rest of their fortune rather than spend more on luxury?

Investment then? How often does buying stocks generate income for businesses? Sure it does if the company is selling new stock or reselling old stock. But isnt the vast majority traded between investors?

I might believe that tax cuts to businesses would create jobs. But why would a company hire more people if the demand isnt there? Reinvestment? Maybe; or just sit on liquidity in tough times or payouts to stockholders and management.

Can Fark conservatives explain any of this? Serious questions; no sarcasm.
 
2012-08-09 08:16:08 AM

mekki: Does anyone believe that millionaires and billionaires really pay such high taxes? Yes, on paper it may seem they pay a shocking amount of taxes but in reality they have accountants that find so many loopholes and write offs that they usually pay a fraction of that.

If these people actually paid what they were supposed to do, that is, the current tax percentage rather than the potential one, I think financial state of the world, especially in the US, would be very different.

So, try as I might, I can't bring myself to feel sorry for these people.


I have lived in countries with much simpler tax laws that don't allow you to hide money as easily as you do int he US. Not sure if France is one of those coutnries but the reforms he is proposing would be make it almost impossible to write off as much stuff.
 
2012-08-09 08:17:38 AM

ozarkmatt: Walking into this tab. Again. And will get smacked by the libs that live here. Fully expect that,

But I have to ask. There has NEVER been a situation where the government takes the public's cash willy nilly and it works out well.

Never Ever.

Am I wrong? Or am I gonna get a bunch of crap?

I'll check in the morn' see what else shows up. But since this Fark, I have a pretty good idea.


Well, "willy nilly" is kind of a loose definition. But I'd start looking at Norway and Finland as examples.

On the flipside, can you give us an example of a functioning 1st-world country that had zero taxes?
 
2012-08-09 08:18:32 AM

SquiggelyGrounders: Can Fark conservatives explain any of this? Serious questions; no sarcasm.


Good luck getting a serious answer, my friend... I can't even get one of them to explain what Romney is going to do as President that's going to improve the economy.
 
2012-08-09 08:19:11 AM

fenianfark: mekki: Does anyone believe that millionaires and billionaires really pay such high taxes? Yes, on paper it may seem they pay a shocking amount of taxes but in reality they have accountants that find so many loopholes and write offs that they usually pay a fraction of that.

Anyone with half a brain knows that they don't pay those rates. It's just like the argument that we have the highest corporate income tax rate on the planet. They totally neglect to mention the single digit tax rates (or even no income taxes at all) that the largest corporations often pay.


General Electric, one of the largest corporations in America, filed a whopping 57,000-page federal tax return earlier this year but didn't pay taxes on $14 billion in profits. The return, which was filed electronically, would have been 19 feet high if printed out and stacked.

It pays to have friends in high places.
 
2012-08-09 08:21:15 AM

Dinjiin: On the flip side, if you have consecutive annual budget increases of a fixed amount and then decide to halt the increases, some people consider that a cut.


It's almost as if there's these things called "population growth" and "inflation".
 
2012-08-09 08:24:31 AM

smitty04: fenianfark: mekki: Does anyone believe that millionaires and billionaires really pay such high taxes? Yes, on paper it may seem they pay a shocking amount of taxes but in reality they have accountants that find so many loopholes and write offs that they usually pay a fraction of that.

Anyone with half a brain knows that they don't pay those rates. It's just like the argument that we have the highest corporate income tax rate on the planet. They totally neglect to mention the single digit tax rates (or even no income taxes at all) that the largest corporations often pay.

General Electric, one of the largest corporations in America, filed a whopping 57,000-page federal tax return earlier this year but didn't pay taxes on $14 billion in profits. The return, which was filed electronically, would have been 19 feet high if printed out and stacked.

It pays to have friends in high places.


You act like you have a problem with this.
 
2012-08-09 08:24:42 AM

keylock71: SquiggelyGrounders: Can Fark conservatives explain any of this? Serious questions; no sarcasm.

Good luck getting a serious answer, my friend... I can't even get one of them to explain what Romney is going to do as President that's going to improve the economy.


Im starting to think there are no true conservatives on Fark. Just trolls and parrots.
 
2012-08-09 08:30:19 AM
Why is it that the GOP, the most unconditionally patriotic, country-loving, flag-waving group of people in the world, seems to be the quickest to suggest moving to another country when it might benefit you tax-wise?

And why would a Republican suggest, for this reason, anyone move to the US, where we have crushing taxation levels eleventy-billion percent higher than anywhere?

Haley, I am confuse.
 
2012-08-09 08:30:44 AM

keylock71: I can't even get one of them to explain what Romney is going to do as President that's going to improve the economy.


oh come on, you know the day Obama won the Presidency was a dark day for the economy
 
2012-08-09 08:30:49 AM

mekki: Does anyone believe that millionaires and billionaires really pay such high taxes?


www.ijreview.com
"Hold up. Pay taxes? Who the hell does that?"
 
2012-08-09 08:34:03 AM

SquiggelyGrounders: keylock71: SquiggelyGrounders: Can Fark conservatives explain any of this? Serious questions; no sarcasm.

Good luck getting a serious answer, my friend... I can't even get one of them to explain what Romney is going to do as President that's going to improve the economy.

Im starting to think there are no true conservatives on Fark. Just trolls and parrots.


I don't think there have been any true conservatives since somebody made that retard Grover the king of conservative fiscal policy. Anybody who signs on to that shiat is a moron or a troll.
 
2012-08-09 08:35:21 AM

ozarkmatt: Walking into this tab. Again. And will get smacked by the libs that live here. Fully expect that,

But I have to ask. There has NEVER been a situation where the government takes the public's cash willy nilly and it works out well.

Never Ever.

Am I wrong? Or am I gonna get a bunch of crap?

I'll check in the morn' see what else shows up. But since this Fark, I have a pretty good idea.


Never ever! I know right! When has the government ever done anything worth while. Taking money from tax paying citizens and then throwing it in a pit.

I like how you typed your ignorant creed using the Internet.

/Vote Republican
 
2012-08-09 08:36:00 AM

Oakenhelm: transplendent: Lenny_da_Hog: Just because Mississippi ranks 50th of the 50 states in education almost everything it's possible to keep score in is nothing to worry about.

Fixed

Hey, I'm pretty sure Mississippi is Number 1 in percentage of population with obesity


img140.imageshack.us
 
2012-08-09 08:36:46 AM

Jackson Herring: keylock71: I can't even get one of them to explain what Romney is going to do as President that's going to improve the economy.

oh come on, you know the day Obama won the Presidency was a dark day for the economy


He told Joe the plumber that he wanted to spread the wealth.
 
2012-08-09 08:39:29 AM

smitty04: He told Joe the plumber that he wanted to spread the wealth.


Did he?
 
2012-08-09 08:41:39 AM
Who wouldn't choose this...

media.web.britannica.comwww.mississippi.com

Over this...

upload.wikimedia.orgwww.vacation-planet.com
 
2012-08-09 08:41:51 AM

way south: I'm not big on economics ...


No kidding.

Jackson Herring: oh come on, you know the day Obama won the Presidency was a dark day for the economy


Indeed, it will forever be a black mark against this great nation.
 
2012-08-09 08:43:40 AM
It's not a tax shelter. It's a freedom shelter. You just can't speak that queer talk while you're here.
 
2012-08-09 08:46:03 AM

Uh Oh Chongo Danger Island!: Get their menage a trois farking, se vu ple ingratiating , vino drinking asses to Bourbon Street. Nao!


Bourbon St is in New Orleans, Louisiana, no?
 
2012-08-09 08:47:09 AM

Jackson Herring: keylock71: I can't even get one of them to explain what Romney is going to do as President that's going to improve the economy.

oh come on, you know the day Obama won the Presidency was a dark day for the economy


I see what you did there
 
2012-08-09 08:47:30 AM

SquiggelyGrounders: mekki: Does anyone believe that millionaires and billionaires really pay such high taxes? Yes, on paper it may seem they pay a shocking amount of taxes but in reality they have accountants that find so many loopholes and write offs that they usually pay a fraction of that.

If these people actually paid what they were supposed to do, that is, the current tax percentage rather than the potential one, I think financial state of the world, especially in the US, would be very different.

So, try as I might, I can't bring myself to feel sorry for these people.


I wonder if an studies have been done to support the idea that most of the rich actually create jobs. How does that work out?

How do tax breaks on personal income lead to jobs? Sure they could hire more gardeners, personal assistants, etc.... but law of diminishing returns. What are the chances that they will just tuck that money away in a bank with the rest of their fortune rather than spend more on luxury?

Investment then? How often does buying stocks generate income for businesses? Sure it does if the company is selling new stock or reselling old stock. But isnt the vast majority traded between investors?

I might believe that tax cuts to businesses would create jobs. But why would a company hire more people if the demand isnt there? Reinvestment? Maybe; or just sit on liquidity in tough times or payouts to stockholders and management.

Can Fark conservatives explain any of this? Serious questions; no sarcasm.


I would love to hear an explanation as well but I don't think we will actually hear one.

I really think it boils down to the poor Republicans that carry water for the super rich just plain don't understand how taxation, particularly progressive taxation, actually works.
 
2012-08-09 08:49:43 AM

Fluorescent Testicle: way south: I'm not big on economics ...

No kidding.

Jackson Herring: oh come on, you know the day Obama won the Presidency was a dark day for the economy

Indeed, it will forever be a black mark against this great nation.


it was spooky, really, just how fast the economy tanked on the news that he'd won the election
 
2012-08-09 08:53:15 AM

ozarkmatt: Walking into this tab. Again. And will get smacked by the libs that live here. Fully expect that,

But I have to ask. There has NEVER been a situation where the government takes the public's cash willy nilly and it works out well.

Never Ever.

Am I wrong? Or am I gonna get a bunch of crap?

I'll check in the morn' see what else shows up. But since this Fark, I have a pretty good idea.


are you posting via TCP/IP ?
 
2012-08-09 08:54:40 AM

Jackson Herring: Fluorescent Testicle: way south: I'm not big on economics ...

No kidding.

Jackson Herring: oh come on, you know the day Obama won the Presidency was a dark day for the economy

Indeed, it will forever be a black mark against this great nation.

it was spooky, really, just how fast the economy tanked on the news that he'd won the election


Its like the economy grabbed a spade and dug a deeper hole
 
2012-08-09 08:55:16 AM

Leader O'Cola: ozarkmatt: Walking into this tab. Again. And will get smacked by the libs that live here. Fully expect that,

But I have to ask. There has NEVER been a situation where the government takes the public's cash willy nilly and it works out well.

Never Ever.

Am I wrong? Or am I gonna get a bunch of crap?

I'll check in the morn' see what else shows up. But since this Fark, I have a pretty good idea.

are you posting via TCP/IP ?


from a province of Nazi Germany?
 
2012-08-09 08:56:07 AM
Putting aside for a moment the screenplay-worthy image of a French billionaire moving to the most backward state in the US (time for a Green Acres reboot?) I think if one of them wanted to move there for a giggle they wouldn't worry too much about.

Assuming for a moment you find Southern culture, cooking, art, architecture on a par with French:

STDs: Link
I'm sure they have their own ways of getting carnal satisfaction that don't involve a lot of interaction with the indigenous population.

Fatties: Link
Just regard that as part of the cultural landscape

Poverty: Link
Income: Link
Obviously non-issues a priori

Education: Link
And without a doubt, a millionaire is not moving to Missip to go to school.

On the other side, the South is full of amazingly beautiful places. But on the other side of that, most of it is too hot or humid for normal human beings.

Don't worry, Mr. Barbour. I'm sure none of the French job creators will do a Google search before setting up residence...
 
2012-08-09 08:56:32 AM

SquiggelyGrounders: Jackson Herring: Fluorescent Testicle: way south: I'm not big on economics ...

No kidding.

Jackson Herring: oh come on, you know the day Obama won the Presidency was a dark day for the economy

Indeed, it will forever be a black mark against this great nation.

it was spooky, really, just how fast the economy tanked on the news that he'd won the election

Its like the economy grabbed a spade and dug a deeper hole


It was as big a mess as your house is after a bunch of racoons get loose in it.
 
2012-08-09 08:58:53 AM
Bobby Jindal should be courting them
 
2012-08-09 08:58:56 AM
What a burden it must be, on today's downtrodden mulch-billionaires, having to be ready at a moment's notice to emigrate to the country whose effective tax rate would benefit you the most. How much would you have to pay in accountants and tax lawyers to monitor the constantly-changing legislation of hundreds of different nations to always be sure that you don't pay a centime more than necessary?

How would you ever form the social connections that we as human animals crave? Would you have to look for solace in the arms of high-ticket call girls of a hundred nations, draped in only the filmiest of revealing silks? Would you need to replace your need for simple affection with the carnal pleasures afforded by the willing orifices and lustful desires of an ever-changing parade of youthful, gorgeous women? Would your need for attachment be exchanged for a desire for control, as restraints and chains become central to your enjoyment of your physical desires?

Because, you know, that would be terrible and stuff.
 
2012-08-09 09:00:59 AM
The French already have a bunch of tax havens. They're called Luxembourg, Monaco, and Andorra. Also the French speaking part of Switzerland.
 
2012-08-09 09:02:23 AM

Philip Francis Queeg: SquiggelyGrounders: Jackson Herring: Fluorescent Testicle: way south: I'm not big on economics ...

No kidding.

Jackson Herring: oh come on, you know the day Obama won the Presidency was a dark day for the economy

Indeed, it will forever be a black mark against this great nation.

it was spooky, really, just how fast the economy tanked on the news that he'd won the election

Its like the economy grabbed a spade and dug a deeper hole

It was as big a mess as your house is after a bunch of racoons get loose in it.


The economy has just been lazily sitting on the porch. Monkeys could do a better job.
 
2012-08-09 09:02:48 AM

Philip Francis Queeg: Leader O'Cola: ozarkmatt: Walking into this tab. Again. And will get smacked by the libs that live here. Fully expect that,

But I have to ask. There has NEVER been a situation where the government takes the public's cash willy nilly and it works out well.

Never Ever.

Am I wrong? Or am I gonna get a bunch of crap?

I'll check in the morn' see what else shows up. But since this Fark, I have a pretty good idea.

are you posting via TCP/IP ?

from a province of Nazi Germany?


Paying for TotalFark using government backed currency?
 
2012-08-09 09:02:53 AM

Skleenar: mulch-billionaires


?

Multi.

But If you can figure out how to make a billion out of mulch, I'm all ears.
 
2012-08-09 09:03:10 AM
If I was that rich I'd head for some Caribbean island or maybe Singapore. You could easily stay in a hotel when you wanted to visit your old home country for a lot less than the extra taxes.
 
2012-08-09 09:03:48 AM
That's right Mississippi, this is your big chance. It is everything you have been waiting for. The commies in France and made their mistake and the time has come for Ol'Miss to take is place in the sun and be the beacon to French aristocracy that it was always meant to be. First the Frogs, tomorrow the world.
 
2012-08-09 09:04:13 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: Worked for Toyota, eh?

"Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double that amount of subsidy. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment."


Well, considering how badly translated my Civic's owner's manual is, it's probably not entirely the workers' fault!
 
2012-08-09 09:07:37 AM

Mrbogey: coco ebert: Sorry, but standard of living in France broadly exceeds the standard of living in the majority of the U.S.

The standard of living in France is comparable to the US. I mean, sure if you moved from the highest standard of living in France to the lowest in the US you'll see a big difference (like most of Mississippi). But do you think that someone who moves from the upper levels of French society won't find a nice place with a good standard in the US? Just about every US state has at least some area that shines. Hell, I could even name some places in Mississippi that have good schools, good jobs within a short travel, and low crime with a good standard of living if you've got the cash and job skills to buy into it.

Remember, we're talking rich people. We're not talking about a middle class Frenchman.


Nah, the best places in the U.S. don't compare to the best places in France. France has spectacular chateaus that are older than the US is. Do you really think a Frenchman would give up his mansion in the French Riviera to live in an apartment in New York City or out in the middle of nowhere in Washing ton state?

Besides, if you move to the U.S., it's a hassle to go to Europe. In Europe, you can go from one country to another as simply as getting into your private jet. I don't think millionaires in France are considering moving to the U.S. If they want low taxes they'll move to Greece or Spain.

Which is actually kind of the point of the taxes. It's not to collect money, it's to prevent riots when they increase taxes on the middle class and lower benefits to the poor. If the rich people want lower taxes in return for less stability, there are lots of places to go.
 
2012-08-09 09:09:18 AM
Mississippi to France: "We're famous for surrendering too!"
 
2012-08-09 09:16:35 AM

Oakenhelm: Hey, I'm pretty sure Mississippi is Number 1 in percentage of population with obesity


Came here to say this. I'm in Kentucky, which was second for obesity a few years ago and now we're down to 6th.

I am really having a hard time imagining there are places with an even higher concentration of fat-asses than this one. I am in a small department of 11 people at work, and only two of us (myself included) are not overweight.
 
2012-08-09 09:20:29 AM

Kibbler: Translation: "tax cuts for job creatin' job creators."

Meanwhile: "ZOMG millions pay no [income] taxes, tax them!"


A million dollars in taxes to the city coffers wont go as far as the millions more that rich people spend to maintain property and employees there. If you overtax the rich folks and chase them off, how does government replace the jobs they take with them?

Maybe the coming decade will prove me wrong, but I suspect the answer from France will be that it doesn't know how to do that.
 
2012-08-09 09:21:31 AM
Yea, please come to the United States. We're not on the brink of our own French Revolution or anything, with the US equivalent of cake being "Let them own a refrigerator."
 
2012-08-09 09:21:54 AM

way south: Maybe the coming decade will prove me wrong


You, wrong? Unpossible.
 
2012-08-09 09:22:17 AM

imontheinternet: Philip Francis Queeg: SquiggelyGrounders: Jackson Herring: Fluorescent Testicle: way south: I'm not big on economics ...

No kidding.

Jackson Herring: oh come on, you know the day Obama won the Presidency was a dark day for the economy

Indeed, it will forever be a black mark against this great nation.

it was spooky, really, just how fast the economy tanked on the news that he'd won the election

Its like the economy grabbed a spade and dug a deeper hole

It was as big a mess as your house is after a bunch of racoons get loose in it.

The economy has just been lazily sitting on the porch. Monkeys could do a better job.


The administration dances around the economic issues, like some sort of cracked-out jig. A boo is all I can muster.
 
2012-08-09 09:22:36 AM

way south: Kibbler: Translation: "tax cuts for job creatin' job creators."

Meanwhile: "ZOMG millions pay no [income] taxes, tax them!"

A million dollars in taxes to the city coffers wont go as far as the millions more that rich people spend to maintain property and employees there. If you overtax the rich folks and chase them off, how does government replace the jobs they take with them?

Maybe the coming decade will prove me wrong, but I suspect the answer from France will be that it doesn't know how to do that.


You are so right. France we be a barren wasteland filled with only the poorest of the poor while Mississippi will be the envy of the world, a prosperous center of culture enlightenment provide by the largess of the Blessed Job Creators.
 
2012-08-09 09:25:52 AM

way south: If you overtax the rich folks and chase them off, how does government replace the jobs they take with them?


Give money to defense contractors?

And how exactly would they take jobs with them in the first place? Are you one of those farking dullards that think rich people just create or destroy jobs for shiats on a whim?
 
2012-08-09 09:27:19 AM

way south: A million dollars in taxes to the city coffers wont go as far as the millions more that rich people spend to maintain property and employees there. If you overtax the rich folks and chase them off, how does government replace the jobs they take with them?


Millions spent? Hundreds, perhaps. But I'm sure those rich farks would refuse to live there unless you paid them a lot more than they'd spend on the help.

They are NOT a net source of jobs.
 
2012-08-09 09:27:57 AM
The millionaires and billionaires that are sick of taxes really need to band together and form their own country, Galtus. Finally they will be able to live in the utopia they deserve where they don't have to pay any taxes. Maybe they can even bring back slave labor so there are people to clean the streets, work in schools and run stores.
 
2012-08-09 09:28:05 AM
At least the women will smell like the ones back home.
 
2012-08-09 09:28:49 AM
Listening to the right wing noise machine, I thought France was already Socialist. How much more Socialist can they get?

and it could happen to the United States if Barack Obama and the Democrats follow in Hollande's footsteps.

Because Barack Obama and the Democrats have proposed a 75% top tax rate on the wealthiest Americans.
 
2012-08-09 09:29:52 AM
Elaine from Seinfeld moves to Mississippi.
 
2012-08-09 09:30:11 AM

way south: A million dollars in taxes to the city coffers wont go as far as the millions more that rich people spend to maintain property and employees there. If you overtax the rich folks and chase them off, how does government replace the jobs they take with them?


The spending that drives the economy is the middle class and then the poor. We've got the numbers, a rich guy can only eat so many chik-fil-a sammiches.
 
2012-08-09 09:31:01 AM

Carth: The millionaires and billionaires that are sick of taxes really need to band together and form their own country, Galtus. Finally they will be able to live in the utopia they deserve where they don't have to pay any taxes. Maybe they can even bring back slave labor so there are people to clean the streets, work in schools and run stores.


Sounds like an interesting reality tv show.... maybe without slaves
 
2012-08-09 09:31:25 AM

James F. Campbell: Also, that's former Governor Barbour, subster.


My bad. Although I would have thought that's one of those titles that you kept throughout your life even after you retire.
 
2012-08-09 09:36:35 AM
"Ah ha ha ha ha"

"Class, en francais"

"Uh hoh hoh hoh hoh"
 
2012-08-09 09:37:18 AM
That's quite a good idea, actually.
When the rest of us get hungry, we'll know where to go.
 
2012-08-09 09:39:50 AM
Why does Haley like modern Frenchmen? A) They're not Catholics, and B) They're almost as white as he is.

At the same time, I'm glad to see the bobblehead crew haven't spared their hate. Because Mississippi, and Republican so bad.
 
2012-08-09 09:40:22 AM

HotWingConspiracy: And how exactly would they take jobs with them in the first place? Are you one of those farking dullards that think rich people just create or destroy jobs for shiats on a whim?


Considering that his first and only solution to the problem of ultra-wealthy people hoarding all of their money away in offshore tax havens like Scrooge McDuck and his money bin is to cut their taxes (I don't know how this is even possible at this point - some of them already pay negative taxes, for fark's sake)... Yeah. We're not exactly talking about a Mensa candidate here.
 
2012-08-09 09:40:46 AM
Has Barbour figured out how to swallow whatever's been in his mouth for the past few decades? Man sounds like he has half of a sammich in his mouth at all times.
 
2012-08-09 09:43:28 AM

Somacandra: FTFA: France's neighbors have adopted different strategies to try to regain economic growth and return the costs of government services to sustainable levels. They have avoided large tax increases.

France's neighbors are doing fine except for Spain. Its the small Mediterranean countries with a much more minimal welfare state that are suffering (as well as Ireland and Spain, which also have a minimal welfare state.) Sweden, Denmark and Germany with their high taxes and large welfare states, are doing just fine. Quit lying.


We ( the US ) also did good when we had 90% tax rates on the rich during the golden age of capitalism.

You're wasting your time telling conservatives to stop lying. They depend on lying. Leo Strauss ( conservative icon ) has instructed his fellow cons to lie to hold onto power.
 
2012-08-09 09:43:44 AM

HotWingConspiracy: way south: If you overtax the rich folks and chase them off, how does government replace the jobs they take with them?

Give money to defense contractors?

And how exactly would they take jobs with them in the first place? Are you one of those farking dullards that think rich people just create or destroy jobs for shiats on a whim?


From my personal experience: We used to have a fuel program that gave discounts to ships. It attracted alot of yachts (and wealthy passengers) to the waterfront stores.
Then someone decided that they didn't deserve such a nice benefit and ended the system.

The ships moved down island.
I'll let you guess what happened to the jobs of the mechanics and painters that maintained them.

Its not a scenario that covers for all situations, but people have a tendency to find opportunity in the places that they live and work. Especially if the laws cater to their financial desires.
If a wealthy man can make more money running their operation in the US than they can in France, the scenery wont prevent them from moving.
 
2012-08-09 09:45:09 AM
I have always found the love of Europe fascinating by the left in general and fark in particular. There is not a country in Europe that is as good as fark makes it out to be. Just in this one example the unemployment in France is appalling. That is a lot of people dependent on the government handouts to survive. That isnt sustainable. Their housing sucks. Their education system sucks. You think of the French as cultured wine snobbish lovers of fine art but for the normal person the reality is much different. Their school systems do not value any education that has any real world applications. Very few technical or trade schools for instance. I can go on and on but didnt the riots give you a clue that things arent as rosy as you think? So in response to this the answer is to make life even MORE difficult for the types of people who can create jobs?
 
2012-08-09 09:45:56 AM

walkingtall: So in response to this the answer is to make life even MORE difficult for the types of people who can create jobs?


False premise. They don't create jobs.
 
2012-08-09 09:46:25 AM

way south: If a wealthy man can make more money running their operation in the US than they can in France, the scenery wont prevent them from moving.


And nothing whatsoever will convince said wealthy man to stay in the US when he moves his operations to beautiful Mumbai!!!


Yeah, let's all race to the bottom and have the cheapest slave labor...um, that is, um, work force in the world!
 
2012-08-09 09:47:50 AM

James F. Campbell: The Green Manalishi: STDs: Link

Fatties: Link

Poverty: Link

Income: Link

Education: Link

Don't worry, Mr. Barbour. I'm sure none of the French job creators will do a Google search before setting up residence...

We're also #1 in teen pregnancies.

/I have seriously heard people suggesting that if we all went to church morefunded Planned Parenthood and offered sex education and free birth control, this stuff wouldn't be a problem.

 
2012-08-09 09:48:55 AM

way south: HotWingConspiracy: way south: If you overtax the rich folks and chase them off, how does government replace the jobs they take with them?

Give money to defense contractors?

And how exactly would they take jobs with them in the first place? Are you one of those farking dullards that think rich people just create or destroy jobs for shiats on a whim?

From my personal experience: We used to have a fuel program that gave discounts to ships. It attracted alot of yachts (and wealthy passengers) to the waterfront stores.
Then someone decided that they didn't deserve such a nice benefit and ended the system.

The ships moved down island.
I'll let you guess what happened to the jobs of the mechanics and painters that maintained them.

Its not a scenario that covers for all situations, but people have a tendency to find opportunity in the places that they live and work. Especially if the laws cater to their financial desires.
If a wealthy man can make more money running their operation in the US than they can in France, the scenery wont prevent them from moving.


Who was paying for the discount?
 
2012-08-09 09:49:05 AM

SquiggelyGrounders: Im starting to think there are no true conservatives on Fark. Just trolls and parrots.


There's several regulars, and they're pretty cool guys. Where we disagree on actual policy, we agree on the alarming depths of cheap Jesus jingoism and authoritarianism that defines the current GOP. Right off the bat that scrapes a huge layer of fat from the topics we should actually be discussing. I'll sit here all night with a cocktail and discuss my opinions of federal spending vs.their ideas. It's fun, and I often...gasp...learn things, which is supposed to be the desired product of a purely political conversation. I'm frequently wrong, and enjoy being corrected.

But it's usually just me and the other FarkLibtards fending off or openly mocking the retard brigade and their daily talking point or historical revision. It's pretty sad. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure 25% of all internet traffic is dedicated to arguing with idiots. Another 70% is porn, and the remaining 5% is reasonable conversation.

We have a good number of "Kos kiddies" (every bit as fingernail-on-chalkboard as a Palin acolyte), but when you look at the proportions, conservatives are overwhelmingly represented here by clowns, bots, trolls, shills, and of course True Believer window-lickers.
 
2012-08-09 09:49:11 AM

walkingtall: I have always found the love of Europe fascinating by the left in general and fark in particular.


I have always found that people who mistake the fantasies in their head for reality to be unreliable judges of people.
 
2012-08-09 09:49:29 AM
Short of getting Scarlett Johansson to marry me and have hot, sweaty sex with me at least once a day for the rest of my life, there is nothing on the planet that could convince me to move to the fourth-world hellhole that is Mississippi.
 
2012-08-09 09:50:52 AM

walkingtall: I have always found the love of Europe fascinating by the left in general and fark in particular. There is not a country in Europe that is as good as fark makes it out to be. Just in this one example the unemployment in France is appalling. That is a lot of people dependent on the government handouts to survive. That isnt sustainable. Their housing sucks. Their education system sucks. You think of the French as cultured wine snobbish lovers of fine art but for the normal person the reality is much different. Their school systems do not value any education that has any real world applications. Very few technical or trade schools for instance. I can go on and on but didnt the riots give you a clue that things arent as rosy as you think? So in response to this the answer is to make life even MORE difficult for the types of people who can create jobs?


Know how I know you don't know any french people?
 
2012-08-09 09:51:13 AM

walkingtall: derpy projection strawman


i2.kym-cdn.com
McKayla is not impressed.
 
2012-08-09 09:51:23 AM

way south: HotWingConspiracy: way south: If you overtax the rich folks and chase them off, how does government replace the jobs they take with them?

Give money to defense contractors?

And how exactly would they take jobs with them in the first place? Are you one of those farking dullards that think rich people just create or destroy jobs for shiats on a whim?

From my personal experience: We used to have a fuel program that gave discounts to ships. It attracted alot of yachts (and wealthy passengers) to the waterfront stores.
Then someone decided that they didn't deserve such a nice benefit and ended the system.

The ships moved down island.
I'll let you guess what happened to the jobs of the mechanics and painters that maintained them.


Ah, so your neighbors are engaging you in a race to the bottom. Maybe you should one up them and promise the wealthy that you'll supply virgins to lay rose petals at their feet when they walk to their yachts.

Its not a scenario that covers for all situations, but people have a tendency to find opportunity in the places that they live and work. Especially if the laws cater to their financial desires.
If a wealthy man can make more money running their operation in the US than they can in France, the scenery wont prevent them from moving.


He could make even more by going to China. Even more than that by going to Vietnam.

I don't want my country to be like those places. You do, and all to fellate the wealthy and play their rigged game.
 
2012-08-09 09:51:49 AM

dickfreckle: SquiggelyGrounders: Im starting to think there are no true conservatives on Fark. Just trolls and parrots.

There's several regulars, and they're pretty cool guys. Where we disagree on actual policy, we agree on the alarming depths of cheap Jesus jingoism and authoritarianism that defines the current GOP. Right off the bat that scrapes a huge layer of fat from the topics we should actually be discussing. I'll sit here all night with a cocktail and discuss my opinions of federal spending vs.their ideas. It's fun, and I often...gasp...learn things, which is supposed to be the desired product of a purely political conversation. I'm frequently wrong, and enjoy being corrected.

But it's usually just me and the other FarkLibtards fending off or openly mocking the retard brigade and their daily talking point or historical revision. It's pretty sad. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure 25% of all internet traffic is dedicated to arguing with idiots. Another 70% is porn, and the remaining 5% is reasonable conversation.

We have a good number of "Kos kiddies" (every bit as fingernail-on-chalkboard as a Palin acolyte), but when you look at the proportions, conservatives are overwhelmingly represented here by clowns, bots, trolls, shills, and of course True Believer window-lickers.


Agreed. I have about ten people marked as some variation of reasonable conservatives or libertarians, but I have almost four screens worth of people marked as shameless conservative trollbags.
 
2012-08-09 09:53:01 AM

The Jami Turman Fan Club: Mrbogey: coco ebert: Sorry, but standard of living in France broadly exceeds the standard of living in the majority of the U.S.

The standard of living in France is comparable to the US. I mean, sure if you moved from the highest standard of living in France to the lowest in the US you'll see a big difference (like most of Mississippi). But do you think that someone who moves from the upper levels of French society won't find a nice place with a good standard in the US? Just about every US state has at least some area that shines. Hell, I could even name some places in Mississippi that have good schools, good jobs within a short travel, and low crime with a good standard of living if you've got the cash and job skills to buy into it.

Remember, we're talking rich people. We're not talking about a middle class Frenchman.

Nah, the best places in the U.S. don't compare to the best places in France. France has spectacular chateaus that are older than the US is. Do you really think a Frenchman would give up his mansion in the French Riviera to live in an apartment in New York City or out in the middle of nowhere in Washing ton state?

Besides, if you move to the U.S., it's a hassle to go to Europe. In Europe, you can go from one country to another as simply as getting into your private jet. I don't think millionaires in France are considering moving to the U.S. If they want low taxes they'll move to Greece or Spain.

Which is actually kind of the point of the taxes. It's not to collect money, it's to prevent riots when they increase taxes on the middle class and lower benefits to the poor. If the rich people want lower taxes in return for less stability, there are lots of places to go.


This is quite smart, and most likely part of Hollande's strategic thinking. Not only does he start high so that when the rate does come down it's along the lines of Sweden (50%), but it appeases the base that is likely to be hurt most by austerity.
 
2012-08-09 09:54:00 AM
False premise. They don't create jobs.

How do you figure? I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income. These measure penalize people with wealth and income. Not sure how you disconnect the two.
 
2012-08-09 09:55:10 AM

walkingtall: False premise. They don't create jobs.

How do you figure? I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income. These measure penalize people with wealth and income. Not sure how you disconnect the two.


Do you owe Frank Luntz a royalty fee for using his talking point that blatantly?
 
2012-08-09 09:55:11 AM
Remember when it was a slam dunk that the rich were gonna flee NY cause of tax increases.

Cons will never stop with their "sky is falling" fear mongering. We saw it with the non existant threat of terrorism ( terrorist attack is one of the least likely ways of dying ).
 
2012-08-09 09:55:15 AM
Cause we all know Mississippi loves them furiners
 
2012-08-09 09:55:27 AM

walkingtall: I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income.


So you're debunking the conservative myth that business owners are struggling?
 
2012-08-09 09:56:41 AM
Hmm. I've never seen either Way South or Walking Tall before - same farkwit person?
 
2012-08-09 09:57:17 AM

walkingtall: False premise. They don't create jobs.

How do you figure? I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income. These measure penalize people with wealth and income. Not sure how you disconnect the two.


My favorite job was the one I got working for rich uncle citibank
 
2012-08-09 09:57:40 AM

AbbeySomeone: James F. Campbell: The Green Manalishi: STDs: Link

Fatties: Link

Poverty: Link

Income: Link

Education: Link

Don't worry, Mr. Barbour. I'm sure none of the French job creators will do a Google search before setting up residence...

We're also #1 in teen pregnancies.

/I have seriously heard people suggesting that if we all went to church morefunded Planned Parenthood and offered sex education and free birth control, this stuff wouldn't be a problem.


Except that it's more successful than the church thing.
 
2012-08-09 09:58:15 AM

Skleenar: I have always found that people who mistake the fantasies in their head for reality to be unreliable judges of people


Are you denying that any thread on fark includes at least 90% of the posters saying how much more like Europe America should be? How bad the US is compared to Europe? Really? Who is living in a fantasy world? Geez talk about denial. Just read this one darn thread as an example.
 
2012-08-09 09:59:00 AM

walkingtall: False premise. They don't create jobs.

How do you figure? I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income. These measure penalize people with wealth and income. Not sure how you disconnect the two.


Never had a worthwhile job, huh?
 
2012-08-09 09:59:29 AM

walkingtall: Are you denying that any thread on fark includes at least 90% of the posters saying how much more like Europe America should be?


Yes. I would also venture that he is questioning your mastery of percentages.
 
2012-08-09 09:59:39 AM

walkingtall: Are you denying that any thread on fark includes at least 90% of the posters saying how much more like Europe America should be? How bad the US is compared to Europe? Really? Who is living in a fantasy world? Geez talk about denial. Just read this one darn thread as an example.


We should listen to our conservative colleagues, who have been convinced we should be run like that bastion of freedom and opportunity, China!
 
2012-08-09 09:59:43 AM

way south: We used to have a fuel program that gave discounts to ships. It attracted alot of yachts (and wealthy passengers) to the waterfront stores.
Then someone decided that they didn't deserve such a nice benefit and ended the system.


Instead of eliminating it they should have just given the free gas to middle class tourists, you'd end up with more stimulus.
 
2012-08-09 09:59:45 AM

walkingtall: I have always found the love of Europe fascinating by the left in general and fark in particular. There is not a country in Europe that is as good as fark makes it out to be. Just in this one example the unemployment in France is appalling. That is a lot of people dependent on the government handouts to survive. That isnt sustainable. Their housing sucks. Their education system sucks. You think of the French as cultured wine snobbish lovers of fine art but for the normal person the reality is much different. Their school systems do not value any education that has any real world applications. Very few technical or trade schools for instance. I can go on and on but didnt the riots give you a clue that things arent as rosy as you think? So in response to this the answer is to make life even MORE difficult for the types of people who can create jobs?


I have always found the love of the US fascinating by the right in general and fark in particular. There is not a place in the US as good as fark makes it out to be. Just in this one case the poverty in the US is appalling. There are a lot of people unable to afford the basic health care they need to survive. That isn't sustainable. Their transportation system sucks. Their education sucks. You think of Americans as can do engineers but for the normal person the reality is much different. Their school systems do not value any education that has any real world applications, instead spending their time on pointless tests. I could go on and on but didn't the Occupy movement give you a clue that things arent as rosy as you think?

Hint: for everything you see as horrible in Europe they can point to one in America that they find equally appalling. Hugely expensive health care that's unavailable to a large chunk of the population. Working conditions far below European standards. (Ask someone from Europe how much vacation or family leave they get sometime.) Religious nonsense taught in science classes. Random massacres by gun-owning nutjobs. (Yes, they do happen occasionally elsewhere, but nowhere near the frequency) Utterly miserable mass transit.

Step back and ask yourself why you think the American way of life is automatically better.
 
2012-08-09 10:01:21 AM

walkingtall: I have always found the love of Europe fascinating by the left in general and fark in particular.


I have always found the hate of Europe fascinating by the right in general and Fark in particular.
 
2012-08-09 10:01:55 AM

walkingtall: False premise. They don't create jobs.

How do you figure? I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income. These measure penalize people with wealth and income. Not sure how you disconnect the two.


I wonder if an studies have been done to support the idea that most of the rich actually create jobs. How does that work out?

How do tax breaks on personal income lead to jobs? Sure they could hire more gardeners, personal assistants, etc.... but law of diminishing returns. What are the chances that they will just tuck that money away in a bank with the rest of their fortune rather than spend more on luxury?

Investment then? How often does buying stocks generate income for businesses? Sure it does if the company is selling new stock or reselling old stock. But isnt the vast majority traded between investors?

I might believe that tax cuts to businesses would create jobs. But why would a company hire more people if the demand isnt there? Reinvestment? Maybe; or just sit on liquidity in tough times or payouts to stockholders and management.

Can Fark conservatives explain any of this? Serious questions; no sarcasm.
 
2012-08-09 10:02:44 AM

CPennypacker: Know how I know you don't know any french people?


Please enlighten me on your vast knowledge on the French. The point made about these measures are to placate the middle and poor because the welfare state is not sustainable and tough things are coming and lets try to keep them calm is imho pretty accurate. However, these types of measures are what got France to this point to begin with and doubling down on crap just gives you twice as much crap.
 
2012-08-09 10:02:50 AM

Flaming Yawn: On the other side, the South is full of amazingly beautiful places. But on the other side of that, most of it is too hot or humid for normal human beings.


Eh, the weather here really isn't much different than that of, say, DC and even NYC much of the summer except we get hotter sooner and stay that way longer. Every day I look at the weather and we (New Orleans, arguably the most infamously sultry city) share fairly similar heat and humidity levels with the Eastern seaboard, which is why I never understood why so many seaboard folks remark about the weather down here when it's 5 degrees cooler and actually less humid than the airport they just departed from. I think they're just b*tching about the same weather but in a different town.

The last time I flew to Philly I stepped off the plane only to be more pissed at the weather than I was, down here.

Now if you're from pretty much anywhere to the west, yeah, southern weather is farking horrible.
 
2012-08-09 10:04:37 AM
I think if I had the money I'd move to Burundi or Haiti before I'd lower myself to living in Mississippi. Really any state below Maryland and east of California, actually.
 
2012-08-09 10:04:58 AM

walkingtall: I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income.


The majority of the sales that person makes are to the middle class and poor. Maybe a rich guy/gal signs your checks as an employee but middle class guys/gals "sign" the checks of your employer.
 
2012-08-09 10:05:03 AM

SquiggelyGrounders: How do tax breaks on personal income lead to jobs? Sure they could hire more gardeners, personal assistants, etc.... but law of diminishing returns. What are the chances that they will just tuck that money away in a bank hide that money in a Luxembourg tax shelter with the rest of their fortune rather than spend more on luxury?

 
2012-08-09 10:05:52 AM

Glockenspiel Hero: I could go on and on but didn't the Occupy movement give you a clue that things arent as rosy as you think?


I can absolutely guarantee you that this guy thinks the OWS movement consists entirely of lazy college students with iPads and Starbucks frappuccinos, unwashed hippies, welfare queens looking for a handout, violent criminals and domestic terrorists.
 
2012-08-09 10:06:21 AM

Glockenspiel Hero: walkingtall: I have always found the love of Europe fascinating by the left in general and fark in particular. There is not a country in Europe that is as good as fark makes it out to be. Just in this one example the unemployment in France is appalling. That is a lot of people dependent on the government handouts to survive. That isnt sustainable. Their housing sucks. Their education system sucks. You think of the French as cultured wine snobbish lovers of fine art but for the normal person the reality is much different. Their school systems do not value any education that has any real world applications. Very few technical or trade schools for instance. I can go on and on but didnt the riots give you a clue that things arent as rosy as you think? So in response to this the answer is to make life even MORE difficult for the types of people who can create jobs?

I have always found the love of the US fascinating by the right in general and fark in particular. There is not a place in the US as good as fark makes it out to be. Just in this one case the poverty in the US is appalling. There are a lot of people unable to afford the basic health care they need to survive. That isn't sustainable. Their transportation system sucks. Their education sucks. You think of Americans as can do engineers but for the normal person the reality is much different. Their school systems do not value any education that has any real world applications, instead spending their time on pointless tests. I could go on and on but didn't the Occupy movement give you a clue that things arent as rosy as you think?

Hint: for everything you see as horrible in Europe they can point to one in America that they find equally appalling. Hugely expensive health care that's unavailable to a large chunk of the population. Working conditions far below European standards. (Ask someone from Europe how much vacation or family leave they get sometime.) Religious nonsense taught in science classes. ...


Not only does the derp brigade not realize the shortcoming of the US, they want to take the policies that to them and turn them up to 11.

There are those of us who wish to make the US as great as the mouth breathers see it, unfortunately they are the ones standing in the way of progress.
 
2012-08-09 10:06:22 AM

walkingtall: False premise. They don't create jobs.

How do you figure? I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income. These measure penalize people with wealth and income. Not sure how you disconnect the two.


I always take advice from idiots like yourself that don't know the meaning of the word anecdote.
 
2012-08-09 10:07:18 AM

Glockenspiel Hero: Step back and ask yourself why you think the American way of life is automatically better.


For one reason and one reason alone. We used to have freedom.I wish the US had a better healthcare system. I wish we had better public transportation options. Im not willing to sacrifce my freedom to get it. You might be. Im not. Europe long ago traded freedom for welfare states. We are on the same path unfortunately. England is starting to reap the rewards of this with the ridiculou overreach of the government into people's lives. The rest of Europe is starting to follow. The most egregious welfare states are collapsing. That is just one small issue with European society.
 
2012-08-09 10:07:40 AM

dickfreckle: Eh, the weather here really isn't much different than that of, say, DC and even NYC much of the summer except we get hotter sooner and stay that way longer.


the night temp are what is brutal down in the south. Up here you can, most summers anyway, just keep your windows open at night and get good sleeping weather.
 
2012-08-09 10:09:03 AM

walkingtall: For one reason and one reason alone. We used to have freedom.


Let me guess. All of that freedom went away on a cold January 2009 morning, didn't it? Remember? It was the same day you decided to care about the deficit.
 
2012-08-09 10:09:14 AM

heypete: Somacandra: France's neighbors are doing fine except for Spain. Its the small Mediterranean countries with a much more minimal welfare state that are suffering (as well as Ireland and Spain, which also have a minimal welfare state.) Sweden, Denmark and Germany with their high taxes and large welfare states, are doing just fine. Quit lying.

Indeed. Switzerland's economy is also excellent. With the Euro tanking around it, the Swiss Franc is quite strong and the Swiss National Bank has to take measures to weaken the Franc to discourage people from seeking it as a safe reserve currency (as a really strong Franc makes exports more expensive, lessens tourism, etc.).

Swiss taxes are not exactly low, and they have both income taxes and property taxes (which are applied annually not just to real estate, but to the net worth of people: stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. are all subject to property tax). There's also the VAT (~8%) on all sales of goods or services, a 35% tax roughly equivalent to the US capital gains tax, and so on. Cost of living is also high, but the quality of life is excellent.

Switzerland has a national, integrated rail system, excellent public transport in cities, a modern electrical grid powered mostly by hydro and some nuclear, essentially no crime, low pollution, a highly-educated population, etc. France is not too different in most respects. Mississippi can barely keep the roads paved, bridges standing, and generally seems to be populated by morons of the highest order.

If I were a French brazillionaire and given the choice between "stay in France, where my friends, family, business partners, etc. are located and pay somewhat increased taxes on a fraction of my gigantic wealth" and "move to Mississippi and pay lower taxes", the choice would be pretty obvious.


Switzerland has outlawed motor racing, has no beaches (and by extension, no nude beaches), and has a very low number of Japanese chicks, both overall and per captia, so it isn't exactly the most perfect country in the world.

But those first two problems (or three) aren't too bad, since you're still just a 2- or 3-hour ride on ICE away from the Mediterranean beaches (some are nude beaches) or the Ring -- although you'd have to take the train to Koeln or Frankfurt a.M. and then drive the rest of the way, since Nuerburg, Quiddelbach, Adenau, Herschbroich, Doettingen, Meuspath, Balkhausen and Muellenbach are very small towns in the very rugged and foresty Eifel mountains. And don't forget your passport, since CH isn't part of the EU.
 
2012-08-09 10:09:17 AM

farkityfarker: There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?


Do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire? (I didn't use the word "is" so you can't use the "depends what the definition of is is" defense)

By they way, they are now the 0bama tax cuts since he signed off on them.
 
2012-08-09 10:09:47 AM

walkingtall: Glockenspiel Hero: Step back and ask yourself why you think the American way of life is automatically better.

For one reason and one reason alone. We used to have freedom.I wish the US had a better healthcare system. I wish we had better public transportation options. Im not willing to sacrifce my freedom to get it. You might be. Im not. Europe long ago traded freedom for welfare states. We are on the same path unfortunately. England is starting to reap the rewards of this with the ridiculou overreach of the government into people's lives. The rest of Europe is starting to follow. The most egregious welfare states are collapsing. That is just one small issue with European society.


Please list all the freedoms you are being asked to sacrifice. You will need to cite specific examples and the historical context behind them.

Difficulty, in no way shape or form will "taxes" be accepted.
 
2012-08-09 10:10:18 AM

walkingtall: Skleenar: I have always found that people who mistake the fantasies in their head for reality to be unreliable judges of people

Are you denying that any thread on fark includes at least 90% of the posters saying how much more like Europe America should be? How bad the US is compared to Europe? Really? Who is living in a fantasy world? Geez talk about denial. Just read this one darn thread as an example.


I've actually lived, albeit somewhat briefly, in Europe. All countries have their own unique flaws, and no one in this thread is suggesting that being in Europe is like having a unicorn chauffeur you around the idyllic countryside while everyone lives in harmony.

What I am saying is that varying European cultures have succeeded at a number of things that America has failed miserably at. It doesn't mean I consider the EU to be beyond reproach. For every thing we fark up, they fark up something else, too. "American exceptionalism" is a very dangerously stupid way of thinking. We can't improve unless we look to our neighbors for examples of things that work, or fail. Instead we plod along ignorantly, outright refusing to consider other countries' models and assaulting the patriotism of those who do.
 
2012-08-09 10:10:42 AM

walkingtall: I wish the US had a better healthcare system. I wish we had better public transportation options. Im not willing to sacrifce my freedom to get it.


You think like a child.
 
2012-08-09 10:10:45 AM

walkingtall: We used to have freedom.


OK, wtf, I'll bite. What freedom do you no longer have? And if you no longer have it, how is that relevant to the question "Why is the American way of life automatically better"?
 
2012-08-09 10:11:11 AM

Headso: dickfreckle: Eh, the weather here really isn't much different than that of, say, DC and even NYC much of the summer except we get hotter sooner and stay that way longer.

the night temp are what is brutal down in the south. Up here you can, most summers anyway, just keep your windows open at night and get good sleeping weather.


Three words. Whole house fan. They are worthless down south.
 
2012-08-09 10:11:25 AM

walkingtall: CPennypacker: Know how I know you don't know any french people?

Please enlighten me on your vast knowledge on the French. The point made about these measures are to placate the middle and poor because the welfare state is not sustainable and tough things are coming and lets try to keep them calm is imho pretty accurate. However, these types of measures are what got France to this point to begin with and doubling down on crap just gives you twice as much crap.


I work for a french bank. I travel there 5-6 times a year. I work closely with my french colleagues every day and have made many friends who work in other industries while visiting.

But clearly you're the expert. Cheese eating surrender monkeys, am i rite?
 
2012-08-09 10:11:27 AM

Fluorescent Testicle: I can absolutely guarantee you that this guy thinks the OWS movement consists entirely of lazy college students with iPads and Starbucks frappuccinos, unwashed hippies, welfare queens looking for a handout, violent criminals and domestic terrorists.


In not saying we are perfect. The wealth discrepancy and just plain greed is causing serious issues. The road we took to get here might not be the road you think. You simply want to blame large companies greed and lack of wealthy people paying taxes as the cause of all the funneling to the top. Along with the buying of govt. On that we are agreed I am not buying that as the sole causes. The fixes for these issues might not be what you think they are either. If it can be fixed.
 
2012-08-09 10:12:10 AM

Headso: dickfreckle: Eh, the weather here really isn't much different than that of, say, DC and even NYC much of the summer except we get hotter sooner and stay that way longer.

the night temp are what is brutal down in the south. Up here you can, most summers anyway, just keep your windows open at night and get good sleeping weather.


Hmmm...good point. When I check the weather it's usually in the daytime while planning my day. And I've never had trouble sleeping up North.
 
2012-08-09 10:12:35 AM

walkingtall: Are you denying that any thread on fark includes at least 90% of the posters saying how much more like Europe America should be? How bad the US is compared to Europe? Really? Who is living in a fantasy world? Geez talk about denial. Just read this one darn thread as an example.


Do you have even one citation or reference to someone saying how Europe is so amazing?

Or is this like how you had death threats by Fark posters and couldnt even link to one instance of it.
 
2012-08-09 10:13:55 AM

Bob16: Three words. Whole house fan. They are worthless down south.


Whore house fans? We have plenty of 'em down here. Hell, I'm one myself.

/sigh, I got nuthin'
 
2012-08-09 10:14:55 AM

walkingtall: We used to have freedom.


Name one freedom you've lost.

walkingtall: The most egregious welfare states are collapsing


Name the top three.
 
2012-08-09 10:15:00 AM

walkingtall: Glockenspiel Hero: Step back and ask yourself why you think the American way of life is automatically better.

For one reason and one reason alone. We used to have freedom.I wish the US had a better healthcare system. I wish we had better public transportation options. Im not willing to sacrifce my freedom to get it. You might be. Im not. Europe long ago traded freedom for welfare states. We are on the same path unfortunately. England is starting to reap the rewards of this with the ridiculou overreach of the government into people's lives. The rest of Europe is starting to follow. The most egregious welfare states are collapsing. That is just one small issue with European society.


What Freedom looks like to walkingtall.

www.continuetolearn.uiowa.eduwww.kawvalley.k12.ks.usi45.photobucket.comwww.ocf.berkeley.eduwww.britannica.comupload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-08-09 10:15:32 AM

walkingtall: Are you denying that any thread on fark includes at least 90% of the posters saying how much more like Europe America should be?


I'm assuming the tentacle porn threads are excepted from your percentages.
 
2012-08-09 10:16:31 AM

NateGrey: Or is this like how you had death threats by Fark posters and couldnt even link to one instance of it.


dramaticchipmunk.gif!!!
 
2012-08-09 10:17:36 AM

walkingtall: In not saying we are perfect. The wealth discrepancy and just plain greed is causing serious issues. The road we took to get here might not be the road you think. You simply want to blame large companies greed and lack of wealthy people paying taxes as the cause of all the funneling to the top. Along with the buying of govt. On that we are agreed I am not buying that as the sole causes. The fixes for these issues might not be what you think they are either. If it can be fixed.


Aside from being wrong and having "All Your Base"-level grammar, what the hell did that have to do with what I said?
 
2012-08-09 10:17:51 AM

CPennypacker: I work for a french bank. I travel there 5-6 times a year. I work closely with my french colleagues every day and have made many friends who work in other industries while visiting.


I worked for a company that does Phase 3 clinical trials so I worked many years directly with French doctors and nurses and technical people. I have been to Europe to set up offices. If that is all you got I am sure I am just as knowledgeable as you are. And I can tell you trying to work within the French ideas of work is very daunting. Every other day off and offices are empty at 4 pm no matter what. I am well aware of French pride in the fact that work is a much smaller part of their lives then Americans. I got it rubbed in my face every dang week but it makes getting things done and running good business hard. There has to be balance. Imho the French took it too far the other way.
 
2012-08-09 10:19:00 AM

NateGrey: walkingtall: Are you denying that any thread on fark includes at least 90% of the posters saying how much more like Europe America should be? How bad the US is compared to Europe? Really? Who is living in a fantasy world? Geez talk about denial. Just read this one darn thread as an example.

Do you have even one citation or reference to someone saying how Europe is so amazing?

Or is this like how you had death threats by Fark posters and couldnt even link to one instance of it.


Silly ad hominem conservative talking point. If you say, "France has shown that nuclear power can be utilized safely with the proper controls and safety measures," it somehow translates to "France is better than America in all things" and elicits an emotional, nationalistic response in the wild teabagger.
 
2012-08-09 10:19:39 AM

walkingtall: CPennypacker: I work for a french bank. I travel there 5-6 times a year. I work closely with my french colleagues every day and have made many friends who work in other industries while visiting.

I worked for a company that does Phase 3 clinical trials so I worked many years directly with French doctors and nurses and technical people. I have been to Europe to set up offices. If that is all you got I am sure I am just as knowledgeable as you are. And I can tell you trying to work within the French ideas of work is very daunting. Every other day off and offices are empty at 4 pm no matter what. I am well aware of French pride in the fact that work is a much smaller part of their lives then Americans. I got it rubbed in my face every dang week but it makes getting things done and running good business hard. There has to be balance. Imho the French took it too far the other way.


Yeah all the employees in my company are really lazy. Its why they are the world's largest bank. Laziness.
 
2012-08-09 10:21:15 AM

walkingtall: We used to have freedom


[citation needed]
 
2012-08-09 10:21:16 AM

someonelse: walkingtall: We used to have freedom.

OK, wtf, I'll bite. What freedom do you no longer have?


Freedom not have the Government blow you up with a predator drone.
 
2012-08-09 10:21:33 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: farkityfarker: There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?

Do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?


Back in January 2011, with regards to the expiration of the 2001/2003 tax cut packages, "Not continuing a tax cut is not technically a tax increase," Norquist said.

But then in June 2012, Norquist said of the expiration of those same tax cut packages that "I think the American people would look at anything that raised taxes from where they are today to be a tax increase."

But then in December 2011, with regards to the FICA tax cut expiration, Norquist said "For the president to run around and say not continuing a temporary tax cut is an increase is inaccurate."

In short, even Grover Norquist, the "guru" of what constitutes a tax increase and what doesn't, has no goddamn clue whether letting a temporary tax cut expire through a sunset clause means you are raising somebody's taxes.
 
2012-08-09 10:21:40 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: By they way, they are now the 0bama tax cuts since he signed off on them.


Please, run with that. Too many idiots think Obama has increased income taxes when he hasn't.

By all means, tell us more about Obama's tax cuts for job creators.
 
2012-08-09 10:23:14 AM

Fluorescent Testicle: I can absolutely guarantee you that this guy thinks the OWS movement consists entirely of lazy college students with iPads and Starbucks frappuccinos, unwashed hippies, welfare queens looking for a handout, violent criminals and domestic terrorists.


Then you would be wrong. I sympathize with the OWS crowd to a degree. I really do. Im not some rich guy making tons of money that can sit above the fray. I am in the middle of it. I have been laid off from jobs. I have struggled to put food on the table. I have been so poor as to have to live in a rented house for 6 weeks with no power until I could get my first paycheck. I have raised 4 kids alone. You people think you know me but you do not. I fully comprehend the problems we have as a country. I just disagree that trading all our freedoms to try and fix it is the answer.
 
2012-08-09 10:23:40 AM

imontheinternet: NateGrey: walkingtall: Are you denying that any thread on fark includes at least 90% of the posters saying how much more like Europe America should be? How bad the US is compared to Europe? Really? Who is living in a fantasy world? Geez talk about denial. Just read this one darn thread as an example.

Do you have even one citation or reference to someone saying how Europe is so amazing?

Or is this like how you had death threats by Fark posters and couldnt even link to one instance of it.

Silly ad hominem conservative talking point. If you say, "France has shown that nuclear power can be utilized safely with the proper controls and safety measures," it somehow translates to "France is better than America in all things" and elicits an emotional, nationalistic response in the wild teabagger.


wrong on that one.
when Tea Party members get reminded that France uses so much nuclear power (as do many European countries) the response is if they can do it, why can't we do more?
 
2012-08-09 10:25:09 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: Just because Mississippi ranks 50th of the 50 states in education is nothing to worry about.


"Welcome to Mississippi, where you'll be just as literate in English as a native!"
 
2012-08-09 10:25:21 AM

Serious Black: tenpoundsofcheese: farkityfarker: There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?

Do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?

Back in January 2011, with regards to the expiration of the 2001/2003 tax cut packages, "Not continuing a tax cut is not technically a tax increase," Norquist said.

But then in June 2012, Norquist said of the expiration of those same tax cut packages that "I think the American people would look at anything that raised taxes from where they are today to be a tax increase."

But then in December 2011, with regards to the FICA tax cut expiration, Norquist said "For the president to run around and say not continuing a temporary tax cut is an increase is inaccurate."

In short, even Grover Norquist, the "guru" of what constitutes a tax increase and what doesn't, has no goddamn clue whether letting a temporary tax cut expire through a sunset clause means you are raising somebody's taxes.


Actually he knows very well when the expiration of a tax cut constitutes a tax increase: if the expiring tax cut is for the top income bracket or capital gains it is a massive tax increase, if the expiring tax cut is for the lower or middle class it is most definitely not a tax increase.

\Hypocrisy: the only constancy in the GOP.
 
2012-08-09 10:26:44 AM

King Something: heypete: Somacandra: France's neighbors are doing fine except for Spain. Its the small Mediterranean countries with a much more minimal welfare state that are suffering (as well as Ireland and Spain, which also have a minimal welfare state.) Sweden, Denmark and Germany with their high taxes and large welfare states, are doing just fine. Quit lying.

Indeed. Switzerland's economy is also excellent. With the Euro tanking around it, the Swiss Franc is quite strong and the Swiss National Bank has to take measures to weaken the Franc to discourage people from seeking it as a safe reserve currency (as a really strong Franc makes exports more expensive, lessens tourism, etc.).

Swiss taxes are not exactly low, and they have both income taxes and property taxes (which are applied annually not just to real estate, but to the net worth of people: stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. are all subject to property tax). There's also the VAT (~8%) on all sales of goods or services, a 35% tax roughly equivalent to the US capital gains tax, and so on. Cost of living is also high, but the quality of life is excellent.

Switzerland has a national, integrated rail system, excellent public transport in cities, a modern electrical grid powered mostly by hydro and some nuclear, essentially no crime, low pollution, a highly-educated population, etc. France is not too different in most respects. Mississippi can barely keep the roads paved, bridges standing, and generally seems to be populated by morons of the highest order.

If I were a French brazillionaire and given the choice between "stay in France, where my friends, family, business partners, etc. are located and pay somewhat increased taxes on a fraction of my gigantic wealth" and "move to Mississippi and pay lower taxes", the choice would be pretty obvious.

Switzerland has outlawed motor racing, has no beaches (and by extension, no nude beaches), and has a very low number of Japanese chicks, both overall and per captia, so it isn't exa ...


You really need to spend some time in Interlaken.

/tried to isolate that line and respond only to it
//for some reason not working on google chrome
 
2012-08-09 10:26:55 AM

walkingtall: [meaningless garbage]


Ah, auto-posted the wrong bot response before, eh?

Sorry, I don't debate with bots.
 
2012-08-09 10:27:02 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: wrong on that one.


Get back on your walkingtall sockpuppet and answer my damn questions.
 
2012-08-09 10:27:04 AM

walkingtall: You people think you know me but you do not. I fully comprehend the problems we have as a country. I just disagree that trading all our freedoms to try and fix it is the answer.


If you think that those are our choices, then I highly question your comprehension of the problems we have as a country.
 
2012-08-09 10:28:13 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: imontheinternet: NateGrey: walkingtall: Are you denying that any thread on fark includes at least 90% of the posters saying how much more like Europe America should be? How bad the US is compared to Europe? Really? Who is living in a fantasy world? Geez talk about denial. Just read this one darn thread as an example.

Do you have even one citation or reference to someone saying how Europe is so amazing?

Or is this like how you had death threats by Fark posters and couldnt even link to one instance of it.

Silly ad hominem conservative talking point. If you say, "France has shown that nuclear power can be utilized safely with the proper controls and safety measures," it somehow translates to "France is better than America in all things" and elicits an emotional, nationalistic response in the wild teabagger.

wrong on that one.
when Tea Party members get reminded that France uses so much nuclear power (as do many European countries) the response is if they can do it, why can't we do more?


But they opposed the federal grant to North Carolina for a new nuke plant.

Teabaggers are morons.
 
2012-08-09 10:28:30 AM

CPennypacker: Yeah all the employees in my company are really lazy. Its why they are the world's largest bank. Laziness.


They were not lazy. They were some of the best people I have ever worked with. You are really going to use a bank as an example of people working hard? I worked for Suntrust before it went gone and by American standards it was a cakewalk. Best job I ever had since ive never had a government job. It was a little stressful because if you made mistakes it cost people real money but other then that it was very easy. Lots of time off and easy hours. It is a bit different in the real world of business.
 
2012-08-09 10:28:53 AM

walkingtall: Glockenspiel Hero: Step back and ask yourself why you think the American way of life is automatically better.

For one reason and one reason alone. We used to have freedom.I wish the US had a better healthcare system. I wish we had better public transportation options. Im not willing to sacrifce my freedom to get it. You might be. Im not. Europe long ago traded freedom for welfare states. We are on the same path unfortunately. England is starting to reap the rewards of this with the ridiculou overreach of the government into people's lives. The rest of Europe is starting to follow. The most egregious welfare states are collapsing. That is just one small issue with European society.


Why do you think that having a better healthcare system or transport options LIMITS your freedom? Wouldn't that expand it- by making mobility and health more accessible? I don't understand this mentality, and I'm an American.
 
2012-08-09 10:29:45 AM

walkingtall: False premise. They don't create jobs.

How do you figure? I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income. These measure penalize people with wealth and income. Not sure how you disconnect the two.


This blog uses the shoot the messenger tactic.
 
2012-08-09 10:29:58 AM
If you think that they would close their multimillion/billion dollar businesses, pack up and move their entire lives somewhere else because they have to pay a measly 3% more then you are the biggest moron on the face of the planet, i.e. Tea Party member.
 
2012-08-09 10:29:59 AM

coco ebert: Why do you think that having a better healthcare system or transport options LIMITS your freedom? Wouldn't that expand it- by making mobility and health more accessible? I don't understand this mentality, and I'm an American.


Because socialism.
 
2012-08-09 10:30:46 AM
Mississippi? Mississippi? Oui! is the river that New Orleans is on, non?

We used to own that! C'est Bon!

llnw.thesims3.com
 
2012-08-09 10:30:50 AM
Well, this has become a troll playpen rather quickly. Off to another thread.
 
2012-08-09 10:31:20 AM
Actually he knows very well when the expiration of a tax cut constitutes a tax increase: if the expiring tax cut is for the top income bracket or capital gains it is a massive tax increase, if the expiring tax cut is for the lower or middle class it is most definitely not a tax increase.

Let's just use liberal logic then.

We'll call it a revenue decrease for American citizens on behalf of the government.
 
2012-08-09 10:31:59 AM

Skleenar: coco ebert: Why do you think that having a better healthcare system or transport options LIMITS your freedom? Wouldn't that expand it- by making mobility and health more accessible? I don't understand this mentality, and I'm an American.

Because socialism.


The freedom not to have any balance between work and home life and the freedom for his children to suffer when he is laid off is very important to him.
 
2012-08-09 10:32:10 AM
Pourquoi n'est-ce pas joueur de banjo portait pas de chaussures? Et où sont ses dents?
 
2012-08-09 10:33:28 AM

walkingtall: CPennypacker: Yeah all the employees in my company are really lazy. Its why they are the world's largest bank. Laziness.

They were not lazy. They were some of the best people I have ever worked with. You are really going to use a bank as an example of people working hard? I worked for Suntrust before it went gone and by American standards it was a cakewalk. Best job I ever had since ive never had a government job. It was a little stressful because if you made mistakes it cost people real money but other then that it was very easy. Lots of time off and easy hours. It is a bit different in the real world of business.


Yes, tell me more about how things are in the real world. Where france is a post-apocalyptic wasteland.
 
2012-08-09 10:34:59 AM
Le no thanks.
 
2012-08-09 10:35:40 AM

SquiggelyGrounders: keylock71: SquiggelyGrounders: Can Fark conservatives explain any of this? Serious questions; no sarcasm.

Good luck getting a serious answer, my friend... I can't even get one of them to explain what Romney is going to do as President that's going to improve the economy.

Im starting to think there are no true conservatives on Fark. Just trolls and parrots.


You're confusing conservatives and Republicans again.
 
2012-08-09 10:39:20 AM

Skleenar: coco ebert: Why do you think that having a better healthcare system or transport options LIMITS your freedom? Wouldn't that expand it- by making mobility and health more accessible? I don't understand this mentality, and I'm an American.

Because socialism.


I'm really curious how people rationalize such an idea. I feel like this thread reveals that a lot of people think like I do (along the lines of making America more like France rather than less at least in terms of health care, infrastructure, environmental concerns, etc.), yet our political point of view is rarely considered. It's like that thread where people filled out a survey on their beliefs and so many people were matched with the Green Party. And no one (myself included!) knew who was even running on the Green Party platform. We're the real "silent majority".

Instead, we hear the discourse of people like walkingtall right and left in the political class and media. So I'm curious why people think this way and how such a view can be changed.
 
2012-08-09 10:39:27 AM

Skleenar: If you think that those are our choices, then I highly question your comprehension of the problems we have as a country.


Of course it isnt our only choice. It seems to be the choice we have chosen. It is the choice advocated on fark. Socialism doesn't work. More socialism doesn't work faster then less socialism but it doesnt work. You can try and mix socialism in a little bit at a time and it seems to work but in the end it wont work. There might be ways to implement some socialist ideas without socialism such as progressive tax rates. Im not convinced that even that is effective. Im not a fair tax or flat tax person but Im not convinced even what appears to be benign progressive tax structure is a good long term thing. Etc etc etc. Fark advocates socialism in one degree or another. My point is that this is bad. It cant be good. To do so would trade freedom for fixes that wont work for one and will erode the one thing that is worth fighting for.
 
2012-08-09 10:39:41 AM

HotWingConspiracy: tenpoundsofcheese: imontheinternet: NateGrey: walkingtall: Are you denying that any thread on fark includes at least 90% of the posters saying how much more like Europe America should be? How bad the US is compared to Europe? Really? Who is living in a fantasy world? Geez talk about denial. Just read this one darn thread as an example.

Do you have even one citation or reference to someone saying how Europe is so amazing?

Or is this like how you had death threats by Fark posters and couldnt even link to one instance of it.

Silly ad hominem conservative talking point. If you say, "France has shown that nuclear power can be utilized safely with the proper controls and safety measures," it somehow translates to "France is better than America in all things" and elicits an emotional, nationalistic response in the wild teabagger.

wrong on that one.
when Tea Party members get reminded that France uses so much nuclear power (as do many European countries) the response is if they can do it, why can't we do more?

But they opposed the federal grant to North Carolina for a new nuke plant.

Teabaggers are morons.


Yep. Their nuclear policy is, wait for it.... let the free market take care of it. We'll put unregulated, private nuclear power plants on the honor system. I'm sure nothing can go wrong there.
 
2012-08-09 10:41:50 AM

coco ebert: Instead, we hear the discourse of people like walkingtall right and left in the political class and media. So I'm curious why people think this way and how such a view can be changed.


So you are saying Im dead set against better health care and transport options? Talk about a strawman argument. Of course I want those things. You are saying that if I disagree with how to get those things I am against those things? Really?
 
2012-08-09 10:41:50 AM

Benni K Rok: SquiggelyGrounders: keylock71: SquiggelyGrounders: Can Fark conservatives explain any of this? Serious questions; no sarcasm.

Good luck getting a serious answer, my friend... I can't even get one of them to explain what Romney is going to do as President that's going to improve the economy.

Im starting to think there are no true conservatives on Fark. Just trolls and parrots.

You're confusing conservatives and Republicans again.


I love that. "I'm not a Republican, I'm a Conservative that just happens to only vote for Republicans."
 
2012-08-09 10:41:50 AM

walkingtall: Skleenar: If you think that those are our choices, then I highly question your comprehension of the problems we have as a country.

Of course it isnt our only choice. It seems to be the choice we have chosen. It is the choice advocated on fark. Socialism doesn't work. More socialism doesn't work faster then less socialism but it doesnt work. You can try and mix socialism in a little bit at a time and it seems to work but in the end it wont work. There might be ways to implement some socialist ideas without socialism such as progressive tax rates. Im not convinced that even that is effective. Im not a fair tax or flat tax person but Im not convinced even what appears to be benign progressive tax structure is a good long term thing. Etc etc etc. Fark advocates socialism in one degree or another. My point is that this is bad. It cant be good. To do so would trade freedom for fixes that wont work for one and will erode the one thing that is worth fighting for.


Please identify the Period in US history that you think best exemplifies the freedoms we have lost.
 
2012-08-09 10:41:54 AM

walkingtall: Skleenar: If you think that those are our choices, then I highly question your comprehension of the problems we have as a country.

Of course it isnt our only choice. It seems to be the choice we have chosen. It is the choice advocated on fark. Socialism doesn't work. More socialism doesn't work faster then less socialism but it doesnt work. You can try and mix socialism in a little bit at a time and it seems to work but in the end it wont work. There might be ways to implement some socialist ideas without socialism such as progressive tax rates. Im not convinced that even that is effective. Im not a fair tax or flat tax person but Im not convinced even what appears to be benign progressive tax structure is a good long term thing. Etc etc etc. Fark advocates socialism in one degree or another. My point is that this is bad. It cant be good. To do so would trade freedom for fixes that wont work for one and will erode the one thing that is worth fighting for. I don't know what I am talking about.


I've translated your post to English for the "derp" impaired.
 
2012-08-09 10:43:31 AM

rufus-t-firefly: tenpoundsofcheese: By they way, they are now the 0bama tax cuts since he signed off on them.

Please, run with that. Too many idiots think Obama has increased income taxes when he hasn't.

0bama has increased taxes and fees. Not income taxes.

By all means, tell us more about Obama's tax cuts for job creators.

ok. 0bama admitted that raising taxes on the job creators is not a good thing to do during a tough economy, so he signed off on keeping their taxes lower.

 
2012-08-09 10:44:44 AM

max_pooper: I've translated your post to English for the "derp" impaired.


You can get mad at me and deny it all you want. I dont care how much you sugar coat it and try to hide it and deny it. Socialism is socialism and it isn't good.
 
2012-08-09 10:44:57 AM
This thread is yet another example of why our economy is still so woefully drab and why it's only going to get worse - because leftists/progressives like those so commonly found on Fark refuse to have an intelligent debate or be open minded about anything and are so ardently concrete in their ways of thinking that they will never change or critically examine it, and there is no amount of evidence they will ever accept as being sufficient even to begin to challenge their ideas. Ever.

Recognizing this and calling them on their bullshiat makes me a racist, of course.
 
2012-08-09 10:45:20 AM
Yeah, I bet all the French millionaires are itching to move from places like Paris or Marseilles or Nice to Mississippi, instead of some low-tax Mediterranean or Atlantic island...
 
2012-08-09 10:45:22 AM

walkingtall: Skleenar: If you think that those are our choices, then I highly question your comprehension of the problems we have as a country.

Of course it isnt our only choice. It seems to be the choice we have chosen. It is the choice advocated on fark. Socialism doesn't work. More socialism doesn't work faster then less socialism but it doesnt work. You can try and mix socialism in a little bit at a time and it seems to work but in the end it wont work. There might be ways to implement some socialist ideas without socialism such as progressive tax rates. Im not convinced that even that is effective. Im not a fair tax or flat tax person but Im not convinced even what appears to be benign progressive tax structure is a good long term thing. Etc etc etc. Fark advocates socialism in one degree or another. My point is that this is bad. It cant be good. To do so would trade freedom for fixes that wont work for one and will erode the one thing that is worth fighting for.


Progressive tax rates are a socialist idea? Are you seriously calling Adam Smith, the intellectual godfather of capitalism, a socialist? Whatever the hell you're smoking or snorting, pass some my way, because that must be some AWESOME stuff there!
 
2012-08-09 10:45:22 AM

Philip Francis Queeg: Please identify the Period in US history that you think best exemplifies the freedoms we have lost.


Look at his horrendous punctuation and his repetitive, rambling, nonsensical posts that rarely have anything at all to do with what he's responding to. He's either a bot or he's copy-pasting.
 
2012-08-09 10:45:38 AM

coco ebert: walkingtall: Glockenspiel Hero: Step back and ask yourself why you think the American way of life is automatically better.

For one reason and one reason alone. We used to have freedom.I wish the US had a better healthcare system. I wish we had better public transportation options. Im not willing to sacrifce my freedom to get it. You might be. Im not. Europe long ago traded freedom for welfare states. We are on the same path unfortunately. England is starting to reap the rewards of this with the ridiculou overreach of the government into people's lives. The rest of Europe is starting to follow. The most egregious welfare states are collapsing. That is just one small issue with European society.

Why do you think that having a better healthcare system or transport options LIMITS your freedom? Wouldn't that expand it- by making mobility and health more accessible? I don't understand this mentality, and I'm an American.


Taxes.

Some people think they're better off with an extra $24 in their pocket and no school for the kids in their community.
 
2012-08-09 10:45:56 AM

Hydra: This thread is yet another example of why our economy is still so woefully drab and why it's only going to get worse - because leftists/progressives like those so commonly found on Fark refuse to have an intelligent debate or be open minded about anything and are so ardently concrete in their ways of thinking that they will never change or critically examine it, and there is no amount of evidence they will ever accept as being sufficient even to begin to challenge their ideas. Ever.

Recognizing this and calling them on their bullshiat makes me a racist, of course.


lolwut
 
2012-08-09 10:46:32 AM

walkingtall: CPennypacker: I work for a french bank. I travel there 5-6 times a year. I work closely with my french colleagues every day and have made many friends who work in other industries while visiting.

I worked for a company that does Phase 3 clinical trials so I worked many years directly with French doctors and nurses and technical people. I have been to Europe to set up offices. If that is all you got I am sure I am just as knowledgeable as you are. And I can tell you trying to work within the French ideas of work is very daunting. Every other day off and offices are empty at 4 pm no matter what. I am well aware of French pride in the fact that work is a much smaller part of their lives then Americans. I got it rubbed in my face every dang week but it makes getting things done and running good business hard. There has to be balance. Imho the French took it too far the other way.


I also have experience working and living in France, and what you are saying about French work culture is nonsense. The statistics don't agree with you either.

French productivity rates are the among the best in the world. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, they are the 6th highest, ahead of Germany and the UK (GDP per hour worked).

Link

France's problem is a combination of low worker participation rates and excessive labor regulations.

their 37 hour a week law is bullshiat, by the way. there are many exemptions to the rule, including sales staff (including many retail workers), "management" (most office jobs), caretakers (cooks, nannies, janitors, etc).
 
2012-08-09 10:46:44 AM

walkingtall: coco ebert: Instead, we hear the discourse of people like walkingtall right and left in the political class and media. So I'm curious why people think this way and how such a view can be changed.

So you are saying Im dead set against better health care and transport options? Talk about a strawman argument. Of course I want those things. You are saying that if I disagree with how to get those things I am against those things? Really?


Yes, that is how people argue here. Sad thing is, I think they really believe that.

Oh, and if you disagree with the President you are a racist ("we get it, he's black")
 
2012-08-09 10:46:55 AM

Philip Francis Queeg: way south: HotWingConspiracy: way south: If you overtax the rich folks and chase them off, how does government replace the jobs they take with them?

Give money to defense contractors?

And how exactly would they take jobs with them in the first place? Are you one of those farking dullards that think rich people just create or destroy jobs for shiats on a whim?

From my personal experience: We used to have a fuel program that gave discounts to ships. It attracted alot of yachts (and wealthy passengers) to the waterfront stores.
Then someone decided that they didn't deserve such a nice benefit and ended the system.

The ships moved down island.
I'll let you guess what happened to the jobs of the mechanics and painters that maintained them.

Its not a scenario that covers for all situations, but people have a tendency to find opportunity in the places that they live and work. Especially if the laws cater to their financial desires.
If a wealthy man can make more money running their operation in the US than they can in France, the scenery wont prevent them from moving.

Who was paying for the discount?


Money not collected in fuel tax, if I recall.
So we were paying.

But I look at it this way: you dont profit from eating the cheese in your mousetrap.
The owners were willing to put up with US laws, and spend here, because it was cheaper to tank here.
What was lost in fuel tax was regained whenever some guy bought overpriced jewlery for his mistress in a waterfront store.

When that enticement wasn't here, they would flag out of places like Panama or St Maarten. The regulations are more relaxed and the labor costs are lower.
 
2012-08-09 10:46:57 AM

walkingtall: False premise. They don't create jobs.

How do you figure? I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income. These measure penalize people with wealth and income. Not sure how you disconnect the two.


But how do they make their money? Do they sell products exclusive to other rich people, or do they, like most of the largest and most successful corporations in the US, depend on a solid base of middle- and lower-income Americans with disposable cash? Let's just put it this way: a billionaire isn't going to buy 1000 times as many cars as a millionaire. Like SquiggelyGrounders said, there are diminishing returns.

I also have an idea -- I wouldn't quite call it a theory -- that the excess savings by the top earners in the late 90's through mid 00's also contributed to the financial crisis, because they were looking for higher returns than you or I would from just putting our money in our savings account. Generally, the more money you put into any one single investment, the lower the % yield you get -- this is most obviously true of bonds where the inverse relationship is common knowledge, and it also works as a framework for thinking about stock if you treat dividends the same way as you do coupon payments. In any case, if you drive up the price of an instrument, you have to start looking for something else to put your money into to get the desired returns. So as the rich accumulated more wealthy, money started moving to illiquid, highly risky instruments like mortgage-backed securities and credit-default swaps on those securities. But those instruments are still ultimately predicated on the solvency of the middle and lower class, and when middle-class earnings faltered the whole house of cards collapsed. THAT, in my opinion, is the cost of inequality.
 
2012-08-09 10:47:23 AM

Hydra: This thread is yet another example of why our economy is still so woefully drab and why it's only going to get worse - because leftists/progressives like those so commonly found on Fark refuse to have an intelligent debate or be open minded about anything and are so ardently concrete in their ways of thinking that they will never change or critically examine it, and there is no amount of evidence they will ever accept as being sufficient even to begin to challenge their ideas. Ever.

Recognizing this and calling them on their bullshiat makes me a racist, of course.


This post is yet another example of why our economy is still so woefully drab and why it's only going to get worse - because rightists/conservatives like this so commonly found on Fark refuse to have an intelligent debate or be open minded about anything and are so ardently concrete in their ways of thinking that they will never change or critically examine it, and there is no amount of evidence they will ever accept as being sufficient even to begin to challenge their ideas. Ever.

Recognizing this and calling them on their bullshiat makes me an elitist, of course.
 
2012-08-09 10:47:58 AM

Hydra: This thread is yet another example of why our economy is still so woefully drab and why it's only going to get worse - because leftists/progressives like those so commonly found on Fark refuse to have an intelligent debate or be open minded about anything and are so ardently concrete in their ways of thinking that they will never change or critically examine it, and there is no amount of evidence they will ever accept as being sufficient even to begin to challenge their ideas. Ever.

Recognizing this and calling them on their bullshiat makes me a racist, of course.


In order for someone to have an intellectual debate with a rightie/republican they would have to be able to present an intellectual point to argue. But they can't because their positions are all based on superstition, ignorance, jealousy or just plain crotchety oldness.
 
2012-08-09 10:48:02 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: ok. 0bama admitted that raising taxes on the job creators is not a good thing to do during a tough economy, so he signed off on keeping their taxes lower.



Citiation needed. I want to see a quote from Obama a) using the phrase "job creator" and b) insisting increasing the rate of the top income tax bracket is not a good thing to do during a rough economy.

I'll go ahead and skip the waiting period because I know there is no such citation. Obama had to give into the GOP holding the lower and middle income bracket tax cuts hostage to maintain the upper brackets rates as well. Boehner and his minions are just stupid and partisan enough to actually do it, Obama had no choice.
 
2012-08-09 10:48:17 AM

walkingtall: You can try and mix socialism in a little bit at a time and it seems to work but in the end it wont work.


walkingtall: max_pooper: I've translated your post to English for the "derp" impaired.

You can get mad at me and deny it all you want. I dont care how much you sugar coat it and try to hide it and deny it. Socialism is socialism and it isn't good.


Ok, biting.

Please tell me why. With specifics and citations supporting your accusations here.

I will wait with bated breath.
 
2012-08-09 10:49:48 AM

way south: Money not collected in fuel tax, if I recall.
So we were paying.

But I look at it this way: you dont profit from eating the cheese in your mousetrap.
The owners were willing to put up with US laws, and spend here, because it was cheaper to tank here.
What was lost in fuel tax was regained whenever some guy bought overpriced jewlery for his mistress in a waterfront store.

When that enticement wasn't here, they would flag out of places like Panama or St Maarten. The regulations are more relaxed and the labor costs are lower.


So you are in favor of direct taxpayer subsidies to the wealthy, including non-citizens. How do you feel about direct taxpayer subsidies to poor and middle class American citizens?
 
2012-08-09 10:50:28 AM

Serious Black: tenpoundsofcheese: farkityfarker: There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?

Do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?

In short, even Grover Norquist, the "guru" of what constitutes a tax increase and what doesn't, has no goddamn clue whether letting a temporary tax cut expire through a sunset clause means you are raising somebody's taxes.


Oh, I didn't realize I was speaking to Mr. Norquist. I thought I was responding to farkityfarker.

But I will try again, do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?
 
2012-08-09 10:51:31 AM
"In 1848 Marx and Engels proposed that progressive taxation be used to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeois, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state. Although communism has failed, the idea of progressive taxation as a means of achieving social justice endures."

Yes it is a socialist idea. Granted the source of that quote is biased but the idea of a progressive tax is socialist. Others may agree with it but it is definitely a socialist tool.
 
2012-08-09 10:51:35 AM
walkingtall, maybe you missed my earlier question, and if I missed your response I apologize. You said America used to have freedom. What freedoms do we no longer have?
 
2012-08-09 10:51:42 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: By all means, tell us more about Obama's tax cuts for job creators.

ok. 0bama admitted that raising taxes on the job creators is not a good thing to do during a tough economy, so he signed off on keeping their taxes lower.


If by "job creators", you mean actual small businesses and the middle class and specifically not rich folks, then yes, you are right.
 
2012-08-09 10:51:49 AM

walkingtall: max_pooper: I've translated your post to English for the "derp" impaired.

You can get mad at me and deny it all you want. I dont care how much you sugar coat it and try to hide it and deny it. Socialism is socialism and it isn't good.


You have shown over and over again that you don't even know what socialism is. All you know is "socialism bad." That's not sufficient enough information to form an opinion worthy of even acknowledgement more or less respect.
 
2012-08-09 10:52:15 AM

CPennypacker: Hydra: This thread is yet another example of why our economy is still so woefully drab and why it's only going to get worse - because leftists/progressives like those so commonly found on Fark refuse to have an intelligent debate or be open minded about anything and are so ardently concrete in their ways of thinking that they will never change or critically examine it, and there is no amount of evidence they will ever accept as being sufficient even to begin to challenge their ideas. Ever.

Recognizing this and calling them on their bullshiat makes me a racist, of course.

In order for someone to have an intellectual debate with a rightie/republican they would have to be able to present an intellectual point to argue. But they can't because their positions are all based on superstition, ignorance, jealousy or just plain crotchety oldness.


With some exceptions, like:

- Yuval Levin,
- Bruce Bartlett,
- Andrew Bacevich,
- Jim Manzi, and
- Reihan Salam.
 
2012-08-09 10:53:16 AM

pippi longstocking: If you think that they would close their multimillion/billion dollar businesses, pack up and move their entire lives somewhere else because they have to pay a measly 3% more


You think they are paying a 72% marginal rate today?
(hint, you are wrong).
 
2012-08-09 10:53:46 AM

CPennypacker: In order for someone to have an intellectual debate with a rightie/republican they would have to be able to present an intellectual point to argue. But they can't because their positions are all based on superstition, ignorance, jealousy or just plain crotchety oldness.


Nice debate tactic. Insult your opponent and try and portray anyone having a position different then you as either subhuman or simply unintelligent. Crotchety oldness, thats a new insult
 
2012-08-09 10:54:20 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: Serious Black: tenpoundsofcheese: farkityfarker: There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?

Do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?

In short, even Grover Norquist, the "guru" of what constitutes a tax increase and what doesn't, has no goddamn clue whether letting a temporary tax cut expire through a sunset clause means you are raising somebody's taxes.

Oh, I didn't realize I was speaking to Mr. Norquist. I thought I was responding to farkityfarker.

But I will try again, do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?


I believe the point of my post is that whether the sunset of a tax cut constitutes a tax increase is in the eye of the beholder. Beyond that, if (like I assume you believe) letting a tax cut expire constitutes a tax increase, then technically isn't every single politician who has ever voted for a tax cut bill that has a sunset clause in it a tax hiker?
 
2012-08-09 10:54:43 AM

Epoch_Zero: Please tell me why. With specifics and citations supporting your accusations here.


Because countries with no socialist policies and complete freedom are the ones that excel. Without the constricting noose of government choking off job creators they will inevitably come in to initially exploit resources, which invariably grows infrastructure to support the operations, which moves more resources and people into the country which enables service industries. Despite initial growing pains it's been proven time and again that countries which don't strangle business with regulation and allow people to succeed or fail on their own merit are the ones that rise in stature, influence and respect.

You know.... like Somalia.

/ capitalism on paper is not functionally different in ultimate effect from communism on paper
// it's almost like smart people realize you need to temper extremes and balance competing approaches to support the sorts of complex economic realities that actually exist outside of carefully managed thought experiments...
 
2012-08-09 10:54:44 AM

Wendy's Chili: Taxes.


The Lone Star State?
 
2012-08-09 10:54:46 AM

walkingtall: "In 1848 Marx and Engels proposed that progressive taxation be used to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeois, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state. Although communism has failed, the idea of progressive taxation as a means of achieving social justice endures."

Yes it is a socialist idea. Granted the source of that quote is biased but the idea of a progressive tax is socialist. Others may agree with it but it is definitely a socialist tool.


Wow. This may be the dumbest thing I'll read all week.
 
2012-08-09 10:54:55 AM

Serious Black: walkingtall: Skleenar: If you think that those are our choices, then I highly question your comprehension of the problems we have as a country.

Of course it isnt our only choice. It seems to be the choice we have chosen. It is the choice advocated on fark. Socialism doesn't work. More socialism doesn't work faster then less socialism but it doesnt work. You can try and mix socialism in a little bit at a time and it seems to work but in the end it wont work. There might be ways to implement some socialist ideas without socialism such as progressive tax rates. Im not convinced that even that is effective. Im not a fair tax or flat tax person but Im not convinced even what appears to be benign progressive tax structure is a good long term thing. Etc etc etc. Fark advocates socialism in one degree or another. My point is that this is bad. It cant be good. To do so would trade freedom for fixes that wont work for one and will erode the one thing that is worth fighting for.

Progressive tax rates are a socialist idea? Are you seriously calling Adam Smith, the intellectual godfather of capitalism, a socialist? Whatever the hell you're smoking or snorting, pass some my way, because that must be some AWESOME stuff there!


Please see my translation above.
 
2012-08-09 10:55:01 AM

walkingtall: Skleenar: If you think that those are our choices, then I highly question your comprehension of the problems we have as a country.

Of course it isnt our only choice. It seems to be the choice we have chosen. It is the choice advocated on fark. Socialism doesn't work. More socialism doesn't work faster then less socialism but it doesnt work. You can try and mix socialism in a little bit at a time and it seems to work but in the end it wont work. There might be ways to implement some socialist ideas without socialism such as progressive tax rates. Im not convinced that even that is effective. Im not a fair tax or flat tax person but Im not convinced even what appears to be benign progressive tax structure is a good long term thing. Etc etc etc. Fark advocates socialism in one degree or another. My point is that this is bad. It cant be good. To do so would trade freedom for fixes that wont work for one and will erode the one thing that is worth fighting for.


Socialism is not a blanket term for any policy that doesn't f*ck the poor.

If progressive tax rates are socialism, then Adam Smith, George Washingon, and Thomas Jefferson are pinkos. Read a f*cking book.
 
2012-08-09 10:55:11 AM

walkingtall: coco ebert: Instead, we hear the discourse of people like walkingtall right and left in the political class and media. So I'm curious why people think this way and how such a view can be changed.

So you are saying Im dead set against better health care and transport options? Talk about a strawman argument. Of course I want those things. You are saying that if I disagree with how to get those things I am against those things? Really?


You didn't answer my question as to why freedom and better healthcare and transport are diametrically opposed. You said yourself the following: I wish the US had a better healthcare system. I wish we had better public transportation options. Im not willing to sacrifce my freedom to get it.

I take what you wrote to mean that you don't want better services because it would decrease your freedom. What freedom must you sacrifice for that? I don't understand.
 
2012-08-09 10:56:10 AM

Fluorescent Testicle: walkingtall: [meaningless garbage]

Ah, auto-posted the wrong bot response before, eh?

Sorry, I don't debate with bots.


Bots? I was thinking troll
 
2012-08-09 10:56:26 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: tenpoundsofcheese: By all means, tell us more about Obama's tax cuts for job creators.

ok. 0bama admitted that raising taxes on the job creators is not a good thing to do during a tough economy, so he signed off on keeping their taxes lower.

If by "job creators", you mean actual small businesses and the middle class and specifically not rich folks, then yes, you are right.


got it. you think the middle class are the job creators and that cutting taxes is a good way to stimulate the economy.
 
2012-08-09 10:57:39 AM

walkingtall: CPennypacker: In order for someone to have an intellectual debate with a rightie/republican they would have to be able to present an intellectual point to argue. But they can't because their positions are all based on superstition, ignorance, jealousy or just plain crotchety oldness.

Nice debate tactic. Insult your opponent and try and portray anyone having a position different then you as either subhuman or simply unintelligent. Crotchety oldness, thats a new insult


Its not a debate tactic. My point is there's nothing to debate. When the person you are arguing makes a right turn into derpistan, you don't follow him. You look for the closest human being and shoot him a confused look.
 
2012-08-09 10:57:39 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: But I will try again, do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?


They reset.

Maybe you should try concocting a real argument instead of trying to munge words to support a talking point.
 
2012-08-09 10:57:55 AM

walkingtall: "In 1848 Marx and Engels proposed that progressive taxation be used to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeois, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state. Although communism has failed, the idea of progressive taxation as a means of achieving social justice endures."

Yes it is a socialist idea. Granted the source of that quote is biased but the idea of a progressive tax is socialist. Others may agree with it but it is definitely a socialist tool.


Just because Marx and Engels advocated that doesn't mean all tax increases are necessarily a Communist plot nor a path to total socialism.
 
2012-08-09 10:58:58 AM
I've lost the freedom to be denied private health insurance because of my Type 1 Diabetes. CURSE YOU, FARTBANGBUS!!!!
 
2012-08-09 11:00:12 AM

Epoch_Zero: walkingtall: You can try and mix socialism in a little bit at a time and it seems to work but in the end it wont work.

walkingtall: max_pooper: I've translated your post to English for the "derp" impaired.

You can get mad at me and deny it all you want. I dont care how much you sugar coat it and try to hide it and deny it. Socialism is socialism and it isn't good.

Ok, biting.

Please tell me why. With specifics and citations supporting your accusations here.

I will wait with bated breath.


Still waiting for those citations that prove your asinine assertions as truth, walkingtall.
 
2012-08-09 11:00:17 AM

Serious Black: tenpoundsofcheese: Serious Black: tenpoundsofcheese: farkityfarker: There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?

Do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?

In short, even Grover Norquist, the "guru" of what constitutes a tax increase and what doesn't, has no goddamn clue whether letting a temporary tax cut expire through a sunset clause means you are raising somebody's taxes.

Oh, I didn't realize I was speaking to Mr. Norquist. I thought I was responding to farkityfarker.

But I will try again, do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?

I believe the point of my post is that whether the sunset of a tax cut constitutes a tax increase is in the eye of the beholder. Beyond that, if (like I assume you believe) letting a tax cut expire constitutes a tax increase, then technically isn't every single politician who has ever voted for a tax cut bill that has a sunset clause in it a tax hiker?


nah, I would say they are a temporary tax decreaser. (vs. a tax decreaser).

Switch it around. A bill that increases taxes but has a sunset clause would be called a temporary tax hike. Not, as in your example, a tax decreaser.
 
2012-08-09 11:00:40 AM
So better public transport supposedly decreases our freedom. Who knew. WTF does everything have to be political? Why can't a bike lane just be a bike lane? Really, it doesn't need to be an ideological issue.
 
2012-08-09 11:01:39 AM

someonelse: walkingtall, maybe you missed my earlier question, and if I missed your response I apologize. You said America used to have freedom. What freedoms do we no longer have?


I will give you one glaring example. For most of American history if someone owned a house and land it was very very hard for the state to wrest control of that from them because the founding fathers knew very well that true freedom started with property rights. Now there were provisions for the state to take land if needed but it was a long legal battle and the state had to give fair compensation for the land. You can argue about the Indians but the Indians didnt have a system for legal ownership of the land. We took advantage of that to our shame but once that land had a legal owner they owned it. Fast forward 200 years. The Supreme Court has ruled that states can now take someone's land to build a Walmart if it means more tax revenue. Or any other commercial use. The state can take your house and land from you for owing 50 dollars in property tax. We have quickly gone from property owners to simply renter from the govt. It happened so slowly maybe you dont realize just how far we have strayed from the original idea of land ownership being paramount and very very hard to take from someone.

So yes. I count that as a lost right and it is never coming back.
 
2012-08-09 11:01:58 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: PC LOAD LETTER: tenpoundsofcheese: By all means, tell us more about Obama's tax cuts for job creators.

ok. 0bama admitted that raising taxes on the job creators is not a good thing to do during a tough economy, so he signed off on keeping their taxes lower.

If by "job creators", you mean actual small businesses and the middle class and specifically not rich folks, then yes, you are right.

got it. you think the middle class are the job creators and that cutting taxes is a good way to stimulate the economy.


I can't tell. Are you trying to be sarcastic or are you actually saying something that is correct?

I really can't tell, are saying that middle class spending is what drives the economy and that a middle class tax cut is a much better way of stimulating the economy than reducing tax liabilities on the already wealthy who will park that money in an account instead of purchasing goods or services that translate into economic growth?

Have you really finally released all the crap you have been spewing for months is wrong?

I'm guessing you didn't realize you accidentally said something that makes sense.
 
2012-08-09 11:02:07 AM

Wendy's Chili: If progressive tax rates areanything except an absolute divorce between government and industry is socialism, then Adam Smith, George Washingon, and Thomas Jefferson areanybody who supports even just a government-run military are pinkos. Read a f*cking book.


No modern military, outside a privately run mercenary force, can exist without dictating to some extent the manufacturing process that supports it. Anytime the government controls in any way the production process of any private entity that is, to an extent, a socialist policy.

Therefore, in the (feeble) minds of people like walkingtall/tenpoundsofcheese, even the U.S. military is a pinko-commie-socialist plot against private industry and all future wars should be fought at the discretion of and exclusively by private entities like Blackwater who owe no allegiance to anything other than the current default currency used on the international stage.
 
2012-08-09 11:02:30 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: PC LOAD LETTER: tenpoundsofcheese: By all means, tell us more about Obama's tax cuts for job creators.

ok. 0bama admitted that raising taxes on the job creators is not a good thing to do during a tough economy, so he signed off on keeping their taxes lower.

If by "job creators", you mean actual small businesses and the middle class and specifically not rich folks, then yes, you are right.

got it. you think the middle class are the job creators and that cutting taxes is a good way to stimulate the economy.


small businesses, collectively, are the nation's biggest employer. correct? that is a GOP talking point

According to compensation survey administrator PayScale in 2010, the average income of small business owners varies widely depending upon their level of experience. For example, small business owners with less than one year of experience in running an organization earn an annual salary ranging from $34,392 to $75,076. Those with more than 10 years experience, on the other hand, earn upwards of $105,757 per year.

Average Income by Industry

The industry in which a small business operates also affects the average income of his owner. Some industries pay far more than others. For example, entrepreneurs who owned electrical contracting businesses make salaries that range from $49,910 to $114,000 each year. Child care providers, in contrast, make anywhere between $19,792 and $61,674 annually.


Link
 
2012-08-09 11:03:05 AM

Wendy's Chili: coco ebert: walkingtall: Glockenspiel Hero: Step back and ask yourself why you think the American way of life is automatically better.

For one reason and one reason alone. We used to have freedom.I wish the US had a better healthcare system. I wish we had better public transportation options. Im not willing to sacrifce my freedom to get it. You might be. Im not. Europe long ago traded freedom for welfare states. We are on the same path unfortunately. England is starting to reap the rewards of this with the ridiculou overreach of the government into people's lives. The rest of Europe is starting to follow. The most egregious welfare states are collapsing. That is just one small issue with European society.

Why do you think that having a better healthcare system or transport options LIMITS your freedom? Wouldn't that expand it- by making mobility and health more accessible? I don't understand this mentality, and I'm an American.

Taxes.

Some people think they're better off with an extra $24 in their pocket and no school for the kids in their community.


So such a line of thinking only imagines freedom as tied up with money, not with mobility or good health or even a more expansive notion of a rising tide lifts all boats, i.e. with a strong middle class we will have more prosperity across the board and thus a better way of life.
 
2012-08-09 11:03:55 AM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: tenpoundsofcheese: But I will try again, do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?

They reset.

Maybe you should try concocting a real argument instead of trying to munge words to support a talking point.


oh, "they reset" is not a munging of words? funny.

People's taxes will increase after the tax cuts expire, right? (or do I need to use smaller words for you?)
 
2012-08-09 11:04:13 AM

someonelse: walkingtall, maybe you missed my earlier question, and if I missed your response I apologize. You said America used to have freedom. What freedoms do we no longer have?


I also hope he has citations for who thinks Europe is so amazing and perfect and of course if we are lucky, these death threats he received on Fark.
 
2012-08-09 11:05:39 AM

walkingtall: someonelse: walkingtall, maybe you missed my earlier question, and if I missed your response I apologize. You said America used to have freedom. What freedoms do we no longer have?

I will give you one glaring example. For most of American history if someone owned a house and land it was very very hard for the state to wrest control of that from them because the founding fathers knew very well that true freedom started with property rights. Now there were provisions for the state to take land if needed but it was a long legal battle and the state had to give fair compensation for the land. You can argue about the Indians but the Indians didnt have a system for legal ownership of the land. We took advantage of that to our shame but once that land had a legal owner they owned it. Fast forward 200 years. The Supreme Court has ruled that states can now take someone's land to build a Walmart if it means more tax revenue. Or any other commercial use. The state can take your house and land from you for owing 50 dollars in property tax. We have quickly gone from property owners to simply renter from the govt. It happened so slowly maybe you dont realize just how far we have strayed from the original idea of land ownership being paramount and very very hard to take from someone.

So yes. I count that as a lost right and it is never coming back.


Eminent domain, such a newly minted freedom robber than it was included in the Bill of Rights ratified in 1791.

Try again.
 
2012-08-09 11:06:14 AM

walkingtall: The Supreme Court has ruled that states can now take someone's land to build a Walmart if it means more tax revenue. Or any other commercial use. The state can take your house and land from you for owing 50 dollars in property tax.


They don't pay you or anything! They just kick you out and start bulldozing! Can you believe they also repossess your other property if you don't pay for it? WHAT TYRANNY!

walkingtall: So yes. I count that as a lost right and it is never coming back.

THIS IS WHAT IDIOTS ACTUALLY BELIEVE.

Land ownership isn't a right, you complete moron.
 
2012-08-09 11:06:43 AM

walkingtall: False premise. They don't create jobs.

How do you figure? I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income. These measure penalize people with wealth and income. Not sure how you disconnect the two.


Let's say you work at a restaurant. It's the demand for food that creates your job, not the owner's bank account.

The people who buy the food are paying for your services. If they go away, so does your job. If the owner loses all of his savings in the stock martket, the restaurant will continue to operate.

Do you follow me?
 
2012-08-09 11:06:47 AM

coco ebert: So better public transport supposedly decreases our freedom. Who knew. WTF does everything have to be political?


Certain idiots here do not understand that there is such a thing as positive liberty. They only understand negative liberty.
 
2012-08-09 11:07:31 AM
Area poster passionate defender of what he imagines rights to be.
 
2012-08-09 11:07:47 AM

max_pooper: tenpoundsofcheese: PC LOAD LETTER: tenpoundsofcheese: By all means, tell us more about Obama's tax cuts for job creators.

ok. 0bama admitted that raising taxes on the job creators is not a good thing to do during a tough economy, so he signed off on keeping their taxes lower.

If by "job creators", you mean actual small businesses and the middle class and specifically not rich folks, then yes, you are right.

got it. you think the middle class are the job creators and that cutting taxes is a good way to stimulate the economy.

I can't tell. Are you trying to be sarcastic or are you actually saying something that is correct?

I really can't tell, are saying that middle class spending is what drives the economy and that a middle class tax cut is a much better way of stimulating the economy than reducing tax liabilities on the already wealthy who will park that money in an account instead of purchasing goods or services that translate into economic growth?

No. I asked the person if they think that tax cuts are stimulative and if they think the job creators are the middle class. I didn't say only tax cuts for the middle class are stimulative. You did.

Have you really finally released all the crap you have been spewing for months is wrong?
No.


 
2012-08-09 11:09:55 AM

max_pooper: Eminent domain, such a newly minted freedom robber than it was included in the Bill of Rights ratified in 1791.

Try again.



You dont read too good do you? I acknowledged eminent domain existed. It exists for a good reason. My point is that it has been expanded WAY beyond where it should be.
 
2012-08-09 11:11:10 AM

Hydra: blah blah blah


Hydra, you are a gold standard kook. I don't think you have any right to be complaining to anyone about intelligent, open minded debates or rigid thinking. Like all conservatives, you are projecting: everything you have accused everyone else of doing is what you yourself are doing. Please kindly come down from your cross and fark off.
 
2012-08-09 11:11:53 AM

Wendy's Chili: walkingtall: False premise. They don't create jobs.

How do you figure? I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income. These measure penalize people with wealth and income. Not sure how you disconnect the two.

Let's say you work at a restaurant. It's the demand for food that creates your job, not the owner's bank account.

The people who buy the food are paying for your services.

How did they get the money to pay for those services?


Of course people spending money is required for an economy. The people who took some risk and were paying people to do a job with the hope that they will get more money in return is a huge factor in how the flywheel gets started and spins faster.
 
2012-08-09 11:12:31 AM

walkingtall: "In 1848 Marx and Engels proposed that progressive taxation be used to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeois, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state. Although communism has failed, the idea of progressive taxation as a means of achieving social justice endures."

Yes it is a socialist idea. Granted the source of that quote is biased but the idea of a progressive tax is socialist. Others may agree with it but it is definitely a socialist tool.


Adam Smith was a filthy socialist.
 
2012-08-09 11:12:44 AM

coco ebert: Wendy's Chili: coco ebert: walkingtall: Glockenspiel Hero: Step back and ask yourself why you think the American way of life is automatically better.

For one reason and one reason alone. We used to have freedom.I wish the US had a better healthcare system. I wish we had better public transportation options. Im not willing to sacrifce my freedom to get it. You might be. Im not. Europe long ago traded freedom for welfare states. We are on the same path unfortunately. England is starting to reap the rewards of this with the ridiculou overreach of the government into people's lives. The rest of Europe is starting to follow. The most egregious welfare states are collapsing. That is just one small issue with European society.

Why do you think that having a better healthcare system or transport options LIMITS your freedom? Wouldn't that expand it- by making mobility and health more accessible? I don't understand this mentality, and I'm an American.

Taxes.

Some people think they're better off with an extra $24 in their pocket and no school for the kids in their community.

So such a line of thinking only imagines freedom as tied up with money, not with mobility or good health or even a more expansive notion of a rising tide lifts all boats, i.e. with a strong middle class we will have more prosperity across the board and thus a better way of life.


Precisely. People like Ron Paul don't really care about the downsides to their policies, their ideology demands abolition of the government consequences be damned.
 
2012-08-09 11:13:53 AM
I'm thinking Luxumbourg is a more likely destination
 
2012-08-09 11:16:44 AM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Wendy's Chili: If progressive tax rates areanything except an absolute divorce between government and industry is socialism, then Adam Smith, George Washingon, and Thomas Jefferson areanybody who supports even just a government-run military are pinkos. Read a f*cking book.

No modern military, outside a privately run mercenary force, can exist without dictating to some extent the manufacturing process that supports it. Anytime the government controls in any way the production process of any private entity that is, to an extent, a socialist policy.

Therefore, in the (feeble) minds of people like walkingtall/tenpoundsofcheese, even the U.S. military is a pinko-commie-socialist plot against private industry and all future wars should be fought at the discretion of and exclusively by private entities like Blackwater who owe no allegiance to anything other than the current default currency used on the international stage.


I have no idea why you dragged me into this argument.
I don't know what extent you think the military dictates the manufacturing processes that support it. If what you really mean is that they say "here is a boat load of money, build my things this way or I will find someone who will" then I agree. No different than how any one with enough market power can determine how they have their products built (like Apple for example).

That is not a socialist policy. Not even close.
 
2012-08-09 11:16:53 AM

Epoch_Zero: Land ownership isn't a right, you complete moron.


Good grief. All the strawmen. It is like a Wizard of Oz cosplay convention in here.I never said being able to own land is a right. Freedom from state interference in your ownership once you own land IS a right. It is a right we have lost.

And yes the state can come in and kick you off your land you have completely paid for when you owe and amount of back property taxes. Forcibly remove you at gunpoint from your home for owing just a few dollars in taxes. It happens every single day. That should be be able to happen. Tax lien I can see where when you sell your house you have to pay your taxes or your children after you die etc. We have gone WAY too far in how easily we let the govt take our land and homes from us whenever they feel like it. Do you really not see a problem with this?
 
2012-08-09 11:17:38 AM

King Something: And don't forget your passport, since CH isn't part of the EU.


I know. I live in Bern. :)
 
2012-08-09 11:18:35 AM

walkingtall: "In 1848 Marx and Engels proposed that progressive taxation be used to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeois, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state. Although communism has failed, the idea of progressive taxation as a means of achieving social justice endures."

Yes it is a socialist idea. Granted the source of that quote is biased but the idea of a progressive tax is socialist. Others may agree with it but it is definitely a socialist tool.


"The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

- Adam Smith, from An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, originally published in 1776

The progressive tax is a capitalist idea as it was formed by the intellectual godfather of capitalism 42 years before Karl Marx was born and 44 years before Friedrich Engels was born.
 
2012-08-09 11:18:50 AM

Epoch_Zero: Still waiting for those citations that prove your asinine assertions as truth, walkingtall.


But socialism bad is one of the immutable truths of the world, like fire hot, sky blue, water wet, and lemonade good.

Honestly though, the opposition to socialism seems to be rooted in the desire to be able to, to have the 'freedom', to buy anything, up to and including people. It doesn't matter that buying a person would be limiting that person's freedom, because presumably if they wanted to exercise their freedom to buy, they would have worked harder.
Townspeople complaining that your factory ruined the water supply? Buy the town. Kick out the people. Buy the people, force'em to drink the bad water. If the town wants clean water so badly, they should buy it themselves.

And the non 1% think they're not going to be the ones sold at auction, and it will instead be their lessers, be they a race, a religion, or a liberal arts major.
 
2012-08-09 11:22:11 AM

walkingtall: And yes the state can come in and kick you off your land you have completely paid for when you owe and amount of back property taxes.


You're welcome to leave civilization anytime you want. We won't stop you. Or you can wake up and realize you don't live in a vacuum, and that you're not allowed to profit from the rest of our society for free.
 
2012-08-09 11:23:11 AM
But socialism bad is one of the immutable truths of the world, like fire hot, sky blue, water wet, and lemonade good.

Honestly though, the opposition to socialism seems to be rooted in the desire to be able to, to have the 'freedom', to buy anything, up to and including people. It doesn't matter that buying a person would be limiting that person's freedom, because presumably if they wanted to exercise their freedom to buy, they would have worked harder.
Townspeople complaining that your factory ruined the water supply? Buy the town. Kick out the people. Buy the people, force'em to drink the bad water. If the town wants clean water so badly, they should buy it themselves.

And the non 1% think they're not going to be the ones sold at auction, and it will instead be their lessers, be they a race, a religion, or a liberal arts major.




Well there is one glaring example of someone directly advocating the virtues of socialism. Doing it by the usual tactics also. Socialists are for people having clean drinking water and food and the opposition being directly opposed to those things. It is like a class on how NOT to debate intelligently.
 
2012-08-09 11:23:22 AM

Philip Francis Queeg: way south: Money not collected in fuel tax, if I recall.
So we were paying.

But I look at it this way: you dont profit from eating the cheese in your mousetrap.
The owners were willing to put up with US laws, and spend here, because it was cheaper to tank here.
What was lost in fuel tax was regained whenever some guy bought overpriced jewlery for his mistress in a waterfront store.

When that enticement wasn't here, they would flag out of places like Panama or St Maarten. The regulations are more relaxed and the labor costs are lower.

So you are in favor of direct taxpayer subsidies to the wealthy, including non-citizens. How do you feel about direct taxpayer subsidies to poor and middle class American citizens?


In this example: It was direct in as much as you needed to own a ship, because those behind the benefit realized that a ship can bring you work.
I see a tax break for the poor as being its own issue. Them not having to paying tax is great, as is a subsidy for training, but you still need employment outside of the government. No employ means no money.
This brings us back to enticing the rich man into our harbor.

Selling things to people with money is what capitalism is about.
If the the governor has to lie, steal, or cheat to get us more customers... I can't say I'm opposed to that.
 
2012-08-09 11:23:55 AM

walkingtall: Epoch_Zero: Land ownership isn't a right, you complete moron.

Good grief. All the strawmen. It is like a Wizard of Oz cosplay convention in here.I never said being able to own land is a right. Freedom from state interference in your ownership once you own land IS a right. It is a right we have lost.

And yes the state can come in and kick you off your land you have completely paid for when you owe and amount of back property taxes. Forcibly remove you at gunpoint from your home for owing just a few dollars in taxes. It happens every single day. That should be be able to happen. Tax lien I can see where when you sell your house you have to pay your taxes or your children after you die etc. We have gone WAY too far in how easily we let the govt take our land and homes from us whenever they feel like it. Do you really not see a problem with this?


break a deal, spin the wheel.

if it is a few dollars in taxes and you completely paid for the property, you can probably get a mortgage.
 
2012-08-09 11:24:59 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: Wendy's Chili: walkingtall: False premise. They don't create jobs.

How do you figure? I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income. These measure penalize people with wealth and income. Not sure how you disconnect the two.

Let's say you work at a restaurant. It's the demand for food that creates your job, not the owner's bank account.

The people who buy the food are paying for your services.

How did they get the money to pay for those services?

Of course people spending money is required for an economy. The people who took some risk and were paying people to do a job with the hope that they will get more money in return is a huge factor in how the flywheel gets started and spins faster.


Christ. I guess I have to break it down even further.

In the beginning men hunted animals and gathered berries, then they began cultivating land and raising their own animals...

Work. Work is what creates wealth. Work is what creates capital. There's a lot of legacy capital hanging around these days, but all of it, at one time, was created by work. Even before the time of employers. No exceptions.

I'm not against capitalism. I'm very pro-capitalism and even pro-big business. I just reject the Republican claims that jobs cannot exist without the wealthy, that raising taxes to pay for national improvements is bad for the economy, and that tax rates favoring the wealthy create more demand for work than tax rates favoring the middle and lower classes.
 
2012-08-09 11:25:00 AM
You're welcome to leave civilization anytime you want. We won't stop you. Or you can wake up and realize you don't live in a vacuum, and that you're not allowed to profit from the rest of our society for free.

Kicking someone off their land and taking their house for 50 dollars of back taxes is just necessary to live in our society? Really you believe that? This discussion is making my opinion of fark lower and lower the more I realize the kinds of things people like you actually advocate.
 
2012-08-09 11:26:30 AM

walkingtall: It is like a class on how NOT to debate intelligently.


I learned it from watching you.
 
2012-08-09 11:26:32 AM

walkingtall: Socialists are for people having clean drinking water and food and the opposition being directly opposed to those things. It is like a class on how NOT to debate intelligently.


What an absurd caricature.

Most normal people recognize the overall benefit of a society having access to clean drinking water and food that won't make them sick. You, apparently, do not, or feel that everyone should be individually responsible for acquiring their own clean water.

As we all know, if one person gets sick from drinking dirty water or eating contaminated food, the disease can never spread to the rest of the populace.
 
2012-08-09 11:27:34 AM

walkingtall: You're welcome to leave civilization anytime you want. We won't stop you. Or you can wake up and realize you don't live in a vacuum, and that you're not allowed to profit from the rest of our society for free.

Kicking someone off their land and taking their house for 50 dollars of back taxes is just necessary to live in our society? Really you believe that? This discussion is making my opinion of fark lower and lower the more I realize the kinds of things people like you actually advocate.


Can you provide any citations of anyone being evicted, with no warning or opportunity to rectify the situation, for owing $50 in back taxes?
 
2012-08-09 11:27:51 AM

Serious Black: It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

- Adam Smith, from An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, originally published in 1776



Uh, they do contribute something a lot more in that proportion today, so wtf is your point?
 
2012-08-09 11:28:44 AM

James F. Campbell: coco ebert: So better public transport supposedly decreases our freedom. Who knew. WTF does everything have to be political?

Certain idiots here do not understand that there is such a thing as positive liberty. They only understand negative liberty.


That's a good way to put it. There are multiple forms of liberty that increased access to good public transport or good health care gives you. It just takes a touch of imagination to realize it.
 
2012-08-09 11:29:02 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: break a deal, spin the wheel.

if it is a few dollars in taxes and you completely paid for the property, you can probably get a mortgage.



I just never realized how little people understand the value of property rights. To be safe in you house and land was one of the most important things the founding fathers wanted us to have. Google it. Im not making it up.To just give that away as so much of fark seems to be ok with makes me very sad.
 
2012-08-09 11:29:35 AM

qorkfiend: walkingtall: You're welcome to leave civilization anytime you want. We won't stop you. Or you can wake up and realize you don't live in a vacuum, and that you're not allowed to profit from the rest of our society for free.

Kicking someone off their land and taking their house for 50 dollars of back taxes is just necessary to live in our society? Really you believe that? This discussion is making my opinion of fark lower and lower the more I realize the kinds of things people like you actually advocate.

Can you provide any citations of anyone being evicted, with no warning or opportunity to rectify the situation, for owing $50 in back taxes?


come on man you already know the anwer to that is no

maybe he'll tell you you're debating wrong again. it cracks me up that people that dense are always masters in the fine art of debate.
 
2012-08-09 11:29:57 AM

walkingtall: Kicking someone off their land and taking their house for 50 dollars of back taxes is just necessary to live in our society? Really you believe that? This discussion is making my opinion of fark lower and lower the more I realize the kinds of things people like you actually advocate


Society is what enables you to own land in the first place. You owe it to the rest of society to maintain that ownership. Without society, your only claim to ownership is if you're a better shot than the next guy who'd like to get his hands on your property.
Me? I'm not that good of a shot, so I'd rather leave protection of my ownership to the police, courts, and government, paid for by my taxes.
 
2012-08-09 11:30:35 AM

Serious Black: walkingtall: "In 1848 Marx and Engels proposed that progressive taxation be used to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeois, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state. Although communism has failed, the idea of progressive taxation as a means of achieving social justice endures."

Yes it is a socialist idea. Granted the source of that quote is biased but the idea of a progressive tax is socialist. Others may agree with it but it is definitely a socialist tool.

"The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

- Adam Smith, from An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, originally published in 1776

The progressive tax is a capitalist idea as it was formed by the intellectual godfather of capitalism 42 years before Karl Marx was born and 44 years before Friedrich Engels was born.


Interestingly enough, Adam Smith was incredibly skeptical and critical of finance capital and banks. How much we have learned since then!
 
2012-08-09 11:30:36 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: Serious Black: It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

- Adam Smith, from An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, originally published in 1776



Uh, they do contribute something a lot more in that proportion today, so wtf is your point?


That the progressive tax is a capitalist idea and not a socialist idea? I'm not trying to debate anything about our current tax code, just a dumbass claim that progressive taxation will destroy capitalism rather than make it more vigorous and vibrant by planting the seeds of growth.
 
2012-08-09 11:31:32 AM

walkingtall: someonelse: walkingtall, maybe you missed my earlier question, and if I missed your response I apologize. You said America used to have freedom. What freedoms do we no longer have?

I will give you one glaring example. For most of American history if someone owned a house and land it was very very hard for the state to wrest control of that from them because the founding fathers knew very well that true freedom started with property rights.


This is true, but the government has always had the right to use eminent domain for mass transit.

I think I get what you're saying- you don't want to vote for Liberals because of Kelo vs. New London by the liberal half of the bench, and similar examples. While I think that's valid, the NAACP opposed the Supreme Court decision, as did many other liberal groups (the ACLU, oddly enough, didn't take a position). There are other cases where Democrats who I most certainly would not call Liberals have restricted rights. Two examples would be anti-smoking laws and trying to make it illegal for kids to buy CDs with dirty lyrics.

If you feel such rights are worth more than mass transit and good health care, that is certainly your right. I don't agree with you, though. I am strongly opposed to the Democrats going in the direction of Tipper Gore and Kelo.

In Israel and many other countries, the big parties have to make alliances with the crazy smaller parties in order to run the country. In our case, the smaller party is what I call the Moderate Derpers. They live in (and often run) HOAs, they were in favor of the Patriot Act, they call the police when their neighbors get too loud, they want to ban cigarettes and dirty lyrics, and want "urban blight" replaced with shopping malls. They also want to help the poor, have good schools, don't mind paying for mass transit, are unsure of but don't strongly object to Obamacare, etc.

In the Reagan era, the Moderate Derpers overwhelmingly voted Republican. Now, they're overwhelmingly voting Democratic. That's how we can go from Reagan destroying Mondale to Obama crushing McCain. For our candidates to win, we have to tolerate the Moderate Derpers, but that doesn't mean we Liberals agree with them. No matter which party wins, there are going to be some Moderate Derpers among them, because that's in part how you win.

I really don't think it's fair to say you won't vote for the Democrats because of the Moderate Derpers. Most Democrats don't agree with them, and they aren't really Democrats.
 
2012-08-09 11:32:12 AM
If I was given the choice of living in Paris, France while coughing up 75% of my income vs. living anywhere in Mississippi tax-free it'd be no choice at all.

www.pariscarrental.org
 
2012-08-09 11:32:44 AM

qorkfiend: walkingtall: You're welcome to leave civilization anytime you want. We won't stop you. Or you can wake up and realize you don't live in a vacuum, and that you're not allowed to profit from the rest of our society for free.

Kicking someone off their land and taking their house for 50 dollars of back taxes is just necessary to live in our society? Really you believe that? This discussion is making my opinion of fark lower and lower the more I realize the kinds of things people like you actually advocate.

Can you provide any citations of anyone being evicted, with no warning or opportunity to rectify the situation, for owing $50 in back taxes?


bonus difficulty: the person also has to have completely paid off the property as the person originally stated.
 
2012-08-09 11:36:06 AM

qorkfiend: Can you provide any citations of anyone being evicted, with no warning or opportunity to rectify the situation, for owing $50 in back taxes?


I dont give a flying rats fark if they had 10 years of notice and 5 people came by a day from the tax assessors office to try and work out a deal to pay the taxes and the homeowner chased them off every time. There should be no way that back taxes should give the govt the power to forcibly remove you at gunpoint from land you have paid for in full. Fine them, hell I would even say garnish wages or put a lien on financial assets. Im not saying the govt should have no power to enforce tax laws. I disagree that being able to remove someone from their land with armed police officers with the right to kill you if you resist should not be able to happen.
 
2012-08-09 11:39:39 AM
Properties that were on some of the 2009 Tax Sales
describe the image

This IL property had a $31,182 lien - Market Value is $1.4 million
Colorado
This property had a $3,375 lien - Market Value $492,000
Arizona
This property had a $1,632 lien - Market Value $245,000


Tax liens. Houses paid for and taken for tax liens. There are probably 1000 of them right now in your state. Kind of silly to argue that it doesnt happen when you can do a 10 second google and find 5000 examples of it.
 
2012-08-09 11:40:15 AM

SquiggelyGrounders: Jackson Herring: Fluorescent Testicle: way south: I'm not big on economics ...

No kidding.

Jackson Herring: oh come on, you know the day Obama won the Presidency was a dark day for the economy

Indeed, it will forever be a black mark against this great nation.

it was spooky, really, just how fast the economy tanked on the news that he'd won the election

Its like the economy grabbed a spade and dug a deeper hole


media.tumblr.com
 
2012-08-09 11:40:28 AM

walkingtall: Epoch_Zero: Land ownership isn't a right, you complete moron.

Good grief. All the strawmen. It is like a Wizard of Oz cosplay convention in here.I never said being able to own land is a right. Freedom from state interference in your ownership once you own land IS a right. It is a right we have lost.

And yes the state can come in and kick you off your land you have completely paid for when you owe and amount of back property taxes. Forcibly remove you at gunpoint from your home for owing just a few dollars in taxes. It happens every single day. That should be be able to happen. Tax lien I can see where when you sell your house you have to pay your taxes or your children after you die etc. We have gone WAY too far in how easily we let the govt take our land and homes from us whenever they feel like it. Do you really not see a problem with this?


Oh tenpounds, how you do stretch.

walkingtall: Kicking someone off their land and taking their house for 50 dollars of back taxes is just necessary to live in our society?


Evidently, someone named walkingtall thinks so. It's right up there.

walkingtall: And yes the state can come in and kick you off your land you have completely paid for when you owe and amount of back property taxes. Forcibly remove you at gunpoint from your home for owing just a few dollars in taxes. It happens every single day. That should be be able to happen

 
2012-08-09 11:40:52 AM

heypete: King Something: And don't forget your passport, since CH isn't part of the EU.

I know. I live in Bern. :)


I remember you posting before (I'm the farker with the Swiss hubby who has lived in Bern). How's life in Bern going? Hope all is well. :)
 
2012-08-09 11:42:02 AM

walkingtall: I dont give a flying rats fark if they had 10 years of notice and 5 people came by a day from the tax assessors office to try and work out a deal to pay the taxes and the homeowner chased them off every time. There should be no way that back taxes should give the govt the power to forcibly remove you at gunpoint from land you have paid for in full.


Hey...wait..


walkingtall: And yes the state can come in and kick you off your land you have completely paid for when you owe and amount of back property taxes. Forcibly remove you at gunpoint from your home for owing just a few dollars in taxes. It happens every single day. That should be be able to happen.



Mitt Rmoney, is that you?
 
2012-08-09 11:42:37 AM

Sergeant Grumbles: Epoch_Zero: Still waiting for those citations that prove your asinine assertions as truth, walkingtall.

But socialism bad is one of the immutable truths of the world, like fire hot, sky blue, water wet, and lemonade good.

Honestly though, the opposition to socialism seems to be rooted in the desire to be able to, to have the 'freedom', to buy anything, up to and including people. It doesn't matter that buying a person would be limiting that person's freedom, because presumably if they wanted to exercise their freedom to buy, they would have worked harder.
Townspeople complaining that your factory ruined the water supply? Buy the town. Kick out the people. Buy the people, force'em to drink the bad water. If the town wants clean water so badly, they should buy it themselves.

And the non 1% think they're not going to be the ones sold at auction, and it will instead be their lessers, be they a race, a religion, or a liberal arts major.


O_o Are you Mr. Thompson, my college guidance counselor??

/I can't say he didn't warn me.
 
2012-08-09 11:42:39 AM

walkingtall: Properties that were on some of the 2009 Tax Sales
describe the image

This IL property had a $31,182 lien - Market Value is $1.4 million
Colorado
This property had a $3,375 lien - Market Value $492,000
Arizona
This property had a $1,632 lien - Market Value $245,000

Tax liens. Houses paid for and taken for tax liens. There are probably 1000 of them right now in your state. Kind of silly to argue that it doesnt happen when you can do a 10 second google and find 5000 examples of it.


If the homeowner has paid for the house, I have no idea why they can't get a 31k loan with 1.4M in collateral.
Something else is going on here.
 
2012-08-09 11:43:04 AM

NateGrey: This post is yet another example of why our economy is still so woefully drab and why it's only going to get worse - because rightists/conservatives like this so commonly found on Fark refuse to have an intelligent debate or be open minded about anything and are so ardently concrete in their ways of thinking that they will never change or critically examine it, and there is no amount of evidence they will ever accept as being sufficient even to begin to challenge their ideas. Ever.

Recognizing this and calling them on their bullshiat makes me an elitist, of course.


CPennypacker: In order for someone to have an intellectual debate with a rightie/republican they would have to be able to present an intellectual point to argue. But they can't because their positions are all based on superstition, ignorance, jealousy or just plain crotchety oldness.


James F. Campbell: Hydra, you are a gold standard kook. I don't think you have any right to be complaining to anyone about intelligent, open minded debates or rigid thinking. Like all conservatives, you are projecting: everything you have accused everyone else of doing is what you yourself are doing. Please kindly come down from your cross and fark off.



Exhibits A, B, and C, folks.

By the way, I've never called myself a conservative - I'm a libertarian (and if you knew anything about what the actual word "conservative" means, you would realize that YOU, in fact, are the true conservative here since you are in favor of ever-increasing government intervention in the operation of the economy, which is EXACTLY what has been going on for decades now).

/question to you three: what would it take for you to re-evaluate your personal stances on these issues? could anything actually change your mind? does this evidence actually exist, or are you so married to your worldview that you'll never change?
 
2012-08-09 11:43:05 AM

walkingtall: max_pooper: Eminent domain, such a newly minted freedom robber than it was included in the Bill of Rights ratified in 1791.

Try again.


You dont read too good do you? I acknowledged eminent domain existed. It exists for a good reason. My point is that it has been expanded WAY beyond where it should be.


www.nebraskastudies.org
 
2012-08-09 11:44:24 AM

Epoch_Zero: Oh tenpounds, how you do stretch.


wut?
 
2012-08-09 11:45:13 AM

Hydra: NateGrey: This post is yet another example of why our economy is still so woefully drab and why it's only going to get worse - because rightists/conservatives like this so commonly found on Fark refuse to have an intelligent debate or be open minded about anything and are so ardently concrete in their ways of thinking that they will never change or critically examine it, and there is no amount of evidence they will ever accept as being sufficient even to begin to challenge their ideas. Ever.

Recognizing this and calling them on their bullshiat makes me an elitist, of course.

CPennypacker: In order for someone to have an intellectual debate with a rightie/republican they would have to be able to present an intellectual point to argue. But they can't because their positions are all based on superstition, ignorance, jealousy or just plain crotchety oldness.

James F. Campbell: Hydra, you are a gold standard kook. I don't think you have any right to be complaining to anyone about intelligent, open minded debates or rigid thinking. Like all conservatives, you are projecting: everything you have accused everyone else of doing is what you yourself are doing. Please kindly come down from your cross and fark off.


Exhibits A, B, and C, folks.

By the way, I've never called myself a conservative - I'm a libertarian (and if you knew anything about what the actual word "conservative" means, you would realize that YOU, in fact, are the true conservative here since you are in favor of ever-increasing government intervention in the operation of the economy, which is EXACTLY what has been going on for decades now).

/question to you three: what would it take for you to re-evaluate your personal stances on these issues? could anything actually change your mind? does this evidence actually exist, or are you so married to your worldview that you'll never change?


I see, so you're a republican who wants to smoke weed then?
 
2012-08-09 11:46:09 AM

Hydra: Exhibits A, B, and C, folks.

By the way, I've never called myself a conservative - I'm a libertarian (and if you knew anything about what the actual word "conservative" means, you would realize that YOU, in fact, are the true conservative here since you are in favor of ever-increasing government intervention in the operation of the economy, which is EXACTLY what has been going on for decades now).

/question to you three: what would it take for you to re-evaluate your personal stances on these issues? could anything actually change your mind? does this evidence actually exist, or are you so married to your worldview that you'll never change?


I understand, a Fark Independent, who votes Republican every chance he gets.

So unique and insightful in your views, but most importantly, you can look down at everyone while voting for RON PAUL.

LOL
 
2012-08-09 11:46:22 AM

CPennypacker: I see, so you're a republican who wants to smoke weed then?


No, he's a republican that doesn't really want to follow or enforce any rules when they don't benefit him directly.
 
2012-08-09 11:46:30 AM

coco ebert: Serious Black: walkingtall: "In 1848 Marx and Engels proposed that progressive taxation be used to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeois, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state. Although communism has failed, the idea of progressive taxation as a means of achieving social justice endures."

Yes it is a socialist idea. Granted the source of that quote is biased but the idea of a progressive tax is socialist. Others may agree with it but it is definitely a socialist tool.

"The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

- Adam Smith, from An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, originally published in 1776

The progressive tax is a capitalist idea as it was formed by the intellectual godfather of capitalism 42 years before Karl Marx was born and 44 years before Friedrich Engels was born.

Interestingly enough, Adam Smith was incredibly skeptical and critical of finance capital and banks. How much we have learned since then!


Even politicians though out the nineteenth and early twentieth century were incredibly skeptical of financial institutions having so much power.

The Fed is actually our third central bank, the first two were dismal failures each causing a recession after their collapses, in one case it was the biggest recession up to that point.

And politicians were incredibly cautious about enacting the third one, but the great bank panic pushed legislator over the edge in order to have a "lender of last resort" which is ironic that the FDIC pretty much put an end to bank panics.

In my opinion it was more of the same old story, those with money have it their way.
 
2012-08-09 11:47:12 AM
Also why are you upset Hydra, I just took your moronic post and turned it around on you.

Means just as much as what you posted.
 
2012-08-09 11:47:55 AM
Really? That is all you have? I made a typo and that is what you are harping on? It is obvious I am in favor of the right to be secure in your house and land and it seems I have a lot of opposition to this idea. I am flabbergasted that most of fark is ok with nobody having any security in a house that is paid for on land that is paid for and the govt should have the right to take that land and house for any reason at all unless the home and land owner jumps through the right bureaucratic hoops to keep them.
 
2012-08-09 11:51:12 AM

walkingtall: I am flabbergasted that most of fark is ok with nobody having any security in a house that is paid for on land that is paid for and the govt should have the right to take that land and house for any reason at all unless the home and land owner jumps through the right bureaucratic hoops to keep them.


Yup this is exactly what is happening.

Do all Republicans live in a fantasy land?
 
2012-08-09 11:51:18 AM

walkingtall: Really? That is all you have? I made a typo and that is what you are harping on? It is obvious I am in favor of the right to be secure in your house and land and it seems I have a lot of opposition to this idea. I am flabbergasted that most of fark is ok with nobody having any security in a house that is paid for on land that is paid for and the govt should have the right to take that land and house for any reason at all unless the home and land owner jumps through the right bureaucratic hoops to keep them.


transitionculture.org
 
Ehh
2012-08-09 11:52:02 AM
Could be good for a romcom. She's a Southern gal who shoots better than her brothers. He's a French millionaire who wanders through the Winn-Dixie looking for a baguette. Will they find love in the Mississippi mud?
 
2012-08-09 11:52:07 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: qorkfiend: walkingtall: You're welcome to leave civilization anytime you want. We won't stop you. Or you can wake up and realize you don't live in a vacuum, and that you're not allowed to profit from the rest of our society for free.

Kicking someone off their land and taking their house for 50 dollars of back taxes is just necessary to live in our society? Really you believe that? This discussion is making my opinion of fark lower and lower the more I realize the kinds of things people like you actually advocate.

Can you provide any citations of anyone being evicted, with no warning or opportunity to rectify the situation, for owing $50 in back taxes?

bonus difficulty: the person also has to have completely paid off the property as the person originally stated.


This is the closest I found so far: the guy was making a deal with the bank, when some guy walks up and says "I just bought your house. Now get out" or words to that effect.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/realestate/articles/2010/03/07/2010 0 307phoenix-home-evictions.html

Usually it's renters who get evicted without notice, because of something the landlord did. I don't know of what case he's thinking of.
 
2012-08-09 11:52:44 AM

Hydra: /question to you three: what would it take for you to re-evaluate your personal stances on these issues? could anything actually change your mind? does this evidence actually exist, or are you so married to your worldview that you'll never change?


Provide evidence. I'll change my mind. As an example, I've long been open to universal health care options ranging from expanding the VHA to everyone all the way to creating a Singapore-like system. I rarely see any libertarians, conservatives/reactionaries, and/or Republicans say anything good of late about anything like what Singapore actually does, let alone the more "lefty" options.

As for evidence as to why universal health care is necessary, check out Nathaniel Hendren's work on why sick people are screwed by a voluntary insurance system.
 
2012-08-09 11:54:31 AM

walkingtall: Really? That is all you have? I made a typo and that is what you are harping on? It is obvious I am in favor of the right to be secure in your house and land and it seems I have a lot of opposition to this idea. I am flabbergasted that most of fark is ok with nobody having any security in a house that is paid for on land that is paid for and the govt should have the right to take that land and house for any reason at all unless the home and land owner jumps through the right bureaucratic hoops to keep them.


No one's even come close to saying that.
What we're saying is: Pay your property tax. That is not some exotic bureaucratic hoop.
It is the fee for ownership.
Yes, there is a fee for ownership in our society. It goes towards maintaining the systems, institutions, and services that make your ownership legally possible.
Without these societal protections, it's like I said: You'd better hope you're a better shot than the next guy who comes along, or he's the new owner of your property.
 
2012-08-09 11:55:55 AM

walkingtall: I am flabbergasted


Clearly.

walkingtall: that most of fark is ok with nobody having any security in a house that is paid for on land that is paid for and the govt should have the right to take that land and house for any reason at all unless the home and land owner jumps through the right bureaucratic hoops to keep them.


How dare they expect you have to pay for your house and pay personal property taxes on it. How dare they! This isn't what the founders wanted! I know because Glenn Beck explained it to me!
 
2012-08-09 11:55:56 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: If the homeowner has paid for the house, I have no idea why they can't get a 31k loan with 1.4M in collateral.
Something else is going on here.



It doesnt matter to me what the reason is the homeowner didnt pay the 31k in taxes. The fact the government can forcibly remove people from their houses for taxes is ridiculous. Banks and lien holders enforcing their property rights is one thing. If you own the land and someone isnt paying you for it you should have the right to have the govt help in removing the person living illegally on your land. Giving power to govt to forcibly remove someone from land and houses that are paid for is what I rail against. I just cant believe I am so alone in this.
 
2012-08-09 11:59:56 AM

walkingtall: If you own the land and someone isnt paying you for it you should have the right to have the govt help in removing the person living illegally on your land. I want the government's help in enforcing my ownership rights, but I don't want to pay for it.


FTFY
 
2012-08-09 12:00:49 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: What we're saying is: Pay your property tax. That is not some exotic bureaucratic hoop.
It is the fee for ownership.
Yes, there is a fee for ownership in our society. It goes towards maintaining the systems, institutions, and services that make your ownership legally possible.
Without these societal protections, it's like I said: You'd better hope you're a better shot than the next guy who comes along, or he's the new owner of your property.



Bullshiat. Thats not freedom. And that belief is why we lost it. That is simply renting from society. That is socialism. That isnt freedom. I know you think you are so smart for that comment but if you could just see the danger it poses. If I pay for a house and land I dont owe society anything. I own a house and land. That is it. You dont get the right to tell my that I have to pay some arbitrary amount of money to society as a cost to keeping it. I guess you do because that is the system we have allowed to develop but that is not freedom. I was asked snarkily to give an example of freedoms lost. I did so. It is a great loss of freedom. You just seem to be ok with it. Im not.
 
2012-08-09 12:01:19 PM

Hydra: /question to you three: what would it take for you to re-evaluate your personal stances on these issues? could anything actually change your mind? does this evidence actually exist, or are you so married to your worldview that you'll never change?


Sure.

Stop insisting on repeating 40 years of failed economic policy that has only served to enrich the top at the expense of everyone else, and ignoring all the data that supports this conclusion.
Stop insisting that tax cuts create jobs, when this has been proven to be false.
Stop ignoring the fact that the greatest economic boom in this country happened at a time of high taxation, high unionization, an emphasis on education, and that it was driven by a rising middle class.
Stop insisting that the government cannot create jobs.
Stop insisting that investments into infrastructure have no benefits.
Stop insisting that privatization is the end-all-be-all of government policy, despite all evidence to the contrary.
Stop insisting that Republicans are the fiscal conservatives, when all evidence points the other direction.
Stop your partisan nonsense when it comes to the debt and the deficit, which are only important when the President is a Democrat.
Stop insisting on a 12-year-old's tax policy of "Starve the beast".
Stop playing partisan political games with the US's credit rating.
Stop rooting against the United States, just because there's a Democrat in office.
Stop insisting that some people are not deserving of equal rights, and that your religious beliefs should be considered before anyone else.

And, most importantly, stop farking lying about everything.
 
2012-08-09 12:03:33 PM

walkingtall: Sergeant Grumbles: What we're saying is: Pay your property tax. That is not some exotic bureaucratic hoop.
It is the fee for ownership.
Yes, there is a fee for ownership in our society. It goes towards maintaining the systems, institutions, and services that make your ownership legally possible.
Without these societal protections, it's like I said: You'd better hope you're a better shot than the next guy who comes along, or he's the new owner of your property.


Bullshiat. Thats not freedom. And that belief is why we lost it. That is simply renting from society. That is socialism. That isnt freedom. I know you think you are so smart for that comment but if you could just see the danger it poses. If I pay for a house and land I dont owe society anything. I own a house and land. That is it. You dont get the right to tell my that I have to pay some arbitrary amount of money to society as a cost to keeping it. I guess you do because that is the system we have allowed to develop but that is not freedom. I was asked snarkily to give an example of freedoms lost. I did so. It is a great loss of freedom. You just seem to be ok with it. Im not.


The "freedom" you want is the "freedom" to not pay your taxes but gain all the benefits of society, i.e. freeload off of the rest of us. Sorry, no - your "freedom" doesn't get to infringe upon mine.
 
2012-08-09 12:03:56 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: qorkfiend: walkingtall: You're welcome to leave civilization anytime you want. We won't stop you. Or you can wake up and realize you don't live in a vacuum, and that you're not allowed to profit from the rest of our society for free.

Kicking someone off their land and taking their house for 50 dollars of back taxes is just necessary to live in our society? Really you believe that? This discussion is making my opinion of fark lower and lower the more I realize the kinds of things people like you actually advocate.

Can you provide any citations of anyone being evicted, with no warning or opportunity to rectify the situation, for owing $50 in back taxes?

bonus difficulty: the person also has to have completely paid off the property as the person originally stated.


^^ Um... what just happened here? ^^
 
2012-08-09 12:04:12 PM

walkingtall: I own a house and land. That is it.


Who says you own the house and land?
 
2012-08-09 12:04:36 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: I want the government's help in enforcing my ownership rights, but I don't want to pay for it.

FTFY



I never said that. I even said the govt should have power to enforce tax collections. I am not an anarchist. Govt is necessary. Paying for it is necessary. Taking away people's property rights is not the answer.
 
2012-08-09 12:05:11 PM

walkingtall: tenpoundsofcheese: If the homeowner has paid for the house, I have no idea why they can't get a 31k loan with 1.4M in collateral.
Something else is going on here.


It doesnt matter to me what the reason is the homeowner didnt pay the 31k in taxes. The fact the government can forcibly remove people from their houses for taxes is ridiculous. Banks and lien holders enforcing their property rights is one thing. If you own the land and someone isnt paying you for it you should have the right to have the govt help in removing the person living illegally on your land. Giving power to govt to forcibly remove someone from land and houses that are paid for is what I rail against. I just cant believe I am so alone in this.


So you are OK with banks and businesses seizing property for non payment, but nor t the government. That's really logical.
 
2012-08-09 12:08:28 PM

walkingtall: I even said the govt should have power to enforce tax collections.


You also said If I pay for a house and land I dont owe society anything. I own a house and land. That is it. You dont get the right to tell my that I have to pay some arbitrary amount of money to society as a cost to keeping it.

Your words are at war with your other words.
 
2012-08-09 12:08:53 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: Who says you own the house and land?


Im not playing with you anymore. The very first thing any totalitarian regime does is to take away property rights. You google it. You find out for yourself how important property rights are to freedom and what the cost is of giving it up. The idea that you dont own your land but only are given access to it by societies agreement is bullcrap. It is a dangerous idea and the founding fathers worked hard to prevent it.
 
2012-08-09 12:10:19 PM

walkingtall: Sergeant Grumbles: Who says you own the house and land?

Im not playing with you anymore. The very first thing any totalitarian regime does is to take away property rights. You google it. You find out for yourself how important property rights are to freedom and what the cost is of giving it up. The idea that you dont own your land but only are given access to it by societies agreement is bullcrap. It is a dangerous idea and the founding fathers worked hard to prevent it.


rofl you property rights only exist if they are recognized by society
 
2012-08-09 12:10:37 PM

walkingtall: It is a dangerous idea and the founding fathers worked hard to prevent it.


Then why'd they codify eminent domain into the Constitution? Why is there a takings clause?
 
2012-08-09 12:12:07 PM

someonelse: tenpoundsofcheese: qorkfiend: walkingtall: You're welcome to leave civilization anytime you want. We won't stop you. Or you can wake up and realize you don't live in a vacuum, and that you're not allowed to profit from the rest of our society for free.

Kicking someone off their land and taking their house for 50 dollars of back taxes is just necessary to live in our society? Really you believe that? This discussion is making my opinion of fark lower and lower the more I realize the kinds of things people like you actually advocate.

Can you provide any citations of anyone being evicted, with no warning or opportunity to rectify the situation, for owing $50 in back taxes?

bonus difficulty: the person also has to have completely paid off the property as the person originally stated.

^^ Um... what just happened here? ^^


well, it seems that some people think I am walkingtall.

I am not.
 
2012-08-09 12:13:14 PM

someonelse: Your words are at war with your other words.


You can enforce tax policy without giving govt the right and ability to take what you have legally purchased and paid for away from you for simple non payment of taxes. Govt has given themselves that power because it is a very big stick when fighting home and land owners for back taxes but it was the lazy way. I guess I have to move on since property rights dont seem to be important to fark.
 
2012-08-09 12:13:31 PM

walkingtall: I never said that. I even said the govt should have power to enforce tax collections. I am not an anarchist. Govt is necessary. Paying for it is necessary. Taking away people's property rights is not the answer.


Something has to enforce the property rights or they are meaningless, and that something has to be paid for. Property taxes are the only logical way to pay for it. Anything else results in free riders who do nothing to fund the institutions that enforce their property rights.
 
2012-08-09 12:14:18 PM

qorkfiend: walkingtall: It is a dangerous idea and the founding fathers worked hard to prevent it.

Then why'd they codify eminent domain into the Constitution? Why is there a takings clause?


plus I doubt that evictions for not paying property taxes is a 21st century idea. I am sure it happened back in the 18th century too...and given all the booms and busts back then, I bet it happened a lot.
 
2012-08-09 12:15:01 PM

walkingtall: Sergeant Grumbles: Who says you own the house and land?

Im not playing with you anymore. The very first thing any totalitarian regime does is to take away property rights. You google it. You find out for yourself how important property rights are to freedom and what the cost is of giving it up. The idea that you dont own your land but only are given access to it by societies agreement is bullcrap. It is a dangerous idea and the founding fathers worked hard to prevent it.


Previously you defended seizing land from the native peoples because they didn't have a regulated system of land ownership. It seems you would be incredibly offended buy the US government seizing land that the Native peoples had ownership of without relying on a government for property rights.

Again, I ask, what period in US history was the period of freedom and property rights?
 
2012-08-09 12:15:24 PM
Wuzza-wuzzup, loony libs? The funky fact of the matter for you Farkazoid freakwads is that that silly socialist in the big castle or whatever it is in France is raising taxes on job creators and forcing them to move to the good ol' US of A! And regardless of what you crazy commies think, unlike your precious Obummer, we realize that this is the greatest country on God's green earth, and will welcome them with open arms! We don't take money from the Rightful Rich and give it to Obummer's union cronies, no sir! Badoodle-boo-yeah!

You clowns are getting hit with a SPREAD of CONSERVOMENTUM in November, ya best be believin'! Urban out, ya dig?
 
2012-08-09 12:17:13 PM

qorkfiend: Then why'd they codify eminent domain into the Constitution? Why is there a takings clause?


Because we DONT live in an anarchist society. There are times when govt HAS to take land for the greater good. The founding fathers were very smart men. They tried hard to balance societies needs with individuals. They made a process by which the govt could argue the greater good would be served by taking this land and giving the owner fair market value for the land taken. Over time this process has been expanded till now the govt can take your land with very little process for very very sketchy reasons that have nothing to do with greater good just expediency or slightly higher tax base. You really dont have a problem with the expansion of power?
 
2012-08-09 12:17:36 PM

walkingtall: Giving power to govt to forcibly remove someone from land and houses that are paid for is what I rail against. I just cant believe I am so alone in this.


You're not alone. You are speaking in absolutes

i.imgur.com

And since there are always two Siths, you must not be alone.

/"Always two Siths" seems awfully absolute, doesn't it.
 
2012-08-09 12:17:56 PM

walkingtall: someonelse: Your words are at war with your other words.

You can enforce tax policy without giving govt the right and ability to take what you have legally purchased and paid for away from you for simple non payment of taxes. Govt has given themselves that power because it is a very big stick when fighting home and land owners for back taxes but it was the lazy way. I guess I have to move on since property rights dont seem to be important to fark.


What enforcement mechanism would you suggest?
 
2012-08-09 12:18:56 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Previously you defended seizing land from the native peoples because they didn't have a regulated system of land ownership. It seems you would be incredibly offended buy the US government seizing land that the Native peoples had ownership of without relying on a government for property rights.


No I did not. Stop lying. I said that is what happened to our shame. I didnt defend it.
 
2012-08-09 12:21:35 PM

walkingtall: Philip Francis Queeg: Previously you defended seizing land from the native peoples because they didn't have a regulated system of land ownership. It seems you would be incredibly offended buy the US government seizing land that the Native peoples had ownership of without relying on a government for property rights.

No I did not. Stop lying. I said that is what happened to our shame. I didnt defend it.


So when was the period of US history where we had freedom and property rights were respected?
 
2012-08-09 12:22:04 PM

Vlad_the_Inaner: You're not alone. You are speaking in absolutes


It is absolutely true the govt does forcibly remove homeowners from land and homes for almost any amount of back property taxes. That is absolutely true. I am saying that giving that power was absolutely wrong. You can absolutely disagree but stating something that is factually true and happens every day is not speaking in nebulous absolutes as you seem to be implying.
 
2012-08-09 12:23:50 PM

walkingtall: They made a process by which the govt could argue the greater good would be served by taking this land and giving the owner fair market value for the land taken.


Sure. And in this case, they're buying the land from someone who doesn't want to contribute to society, and turning it over to someone who does. Having someone there who will pay their taxes clearly serves the greater good.

walkingtall: Over time this process has been expanded till now the govt can take your land with very little process for very very sketchy reasons that have nothing to do with greater good just expediency or slightly higher tax base.


Are you suggesting that people whose land has been taken under eminent domain have no recourse via the court system?
 
2012-08-09 12:25:59 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: o when was the period of US history where we had freedom and property rights were respected?


America has always been a work in progress. We stole land from Indians. We enslaved people. We denied rights to groups. I get it. People are bad. My point is enact reforms but dont throw out the baby with the bathwater.
 
2012-08-09 12:30:06 PM

walkingtall: tenpoundsofcheese: If the homeowner has paid for the house, I have no idea why they can't get a 31k loan with 1.4M in collateral.
Something else is going on here.


It doesnt matter to me what the reason is the homeowner didnt pay the 31k in taxes. The fact the government can forcibly remove people from their houses for taxes is ridiculous. Banks and lien holders enforcing their property rights is one thing. If you own the land and someone isnt paying you for it you should have the right to have the govt help in removing the person living illegally on your land. Giving power to govt to forcibly remove someone from land and houses that are paid for is what I rail against. I just cant believe I am so alone in this.


Ok, you are done.
If you don't pay your taxes, the government slaps a tax lien on your property.
So in this case the lien holder is enforcing their rights, which you seem to be okay with.

Secondly, if a person has a $1.4M house they paid for and is not paying $31k in taxes, there is something else going on here.
Of course the government should have the right to collect on taxes owed and seize the assets if necessary. Whether that is a house or a gun collection or wage garnishment (maybe the person had no wages) doesn't matter.
 
2012-08-09 12:31:21 PM

qorkfiend: Are you suggesting that people whose land has been taken under eminent domain have no recourse via the court system?


Very little unless you know someone. Is that really what you want? A system by which the govt can take your land with little or no legal process so that the burden is on the homeowner to know what buttons to press and palms to grease to be able to keep his land? You want the default position that the govt can take your land at its whim unless you stop it? I strongly disagree. I think the process should be on the govt having the burden of proof that taking your land is necessary without you having to fight to keep what is yours. We seem to have very different ideas on how govt should work.
 
2012-08-09 12:33:48 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Secondly, if a person has a $1.4M house they paid for and is not paying $31k in taxes, there is something else going on here.
Of course the government should have the right to collect on taxes owed and seize the assets if necessary. Whether that is a house or a gun collection or wage garnishment (maybe the person had no wages) doesn't matter.



And on that we disagree. I do not think the govt taking your land and house you have title to for back taxes is right. There are other legal means to collect. Taking your property for minimal amounts of overdue taxes should not be legal. It just shouldnt.
 
2012-08-09 12:33:58 PM

walkingtall: Philip Francis Queeg: o when was the period of US history where we had freedom and property rights were respected?

America has always been a work in progress. We stole land from Indians. We enslaved people. We denied rights to groups. I get it. People are bad. My point is enact reforms but dont throw out the baby with the bathwater.


No, you stated that we used to have freedoms and property rights that we no longer have. When exactly was that?
 
2012-08-09 12:36:45 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: No, you stated that we used to have freedoms and property rights that we no longer have. When exactly was that?


Sigh, I have given examples of how we have lost our property rights. We had them and now we no longer have them. They have been eroded over time. There was not some signature moment liked the "Govt can take your land" act of 1852 or some such epoch but as we live today property rights are gone. We used to have them and we no longer have them. Im not sure what else you could be looking for.
 
2012-08-09 12:39:49 PM

walkingtall: Philip Francis Queeg: No, you stated that we used to have freedoms and property rights that we no longer have. When exactly was that?

Sigh, I have given examples of how we have lost our property rights. We had them and now we no longer have them. They have been eroded over time. There was not some signature moment liked the "Govt can take your land" act of 1852 or some such epoch but as we live today property rights are gone. We used to have them and we no longer have them. Im not sure what else you could be looking for.


Who is the "we" you are speaking of? Wealthy white male land owners?
 
2012-08-09 12:45:08 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Who is the "we" you are speaking of? Wealthy white male land owners?


Sigh, yet another straw man. So now Im saying that since Im for property rights I am only for property rights for wealthy white males? You just keep beating that dead horse there Phillip. I dont care what you throw at me the fact that the govt can seize home and land that are paid off for bare minimums of back taxes is just wrong. I would argue that any seizure of land and property for back taxes should be illegal but I give you that there might be some extreme circumstances that require it. Instead of people being up in arms about this I keep getting called names and have people defending it. Amazing.
 
2012-08-09 12:49:31 PM

walkingtall: Philip Francis Queeg: Who is the "we" you are speaking of? Wealthy white male land owners?

Sigh, yet another straw man. So now Im saying that since Im for property rights I am only for property rights for wealthy white males? You just keep beating that dead horse there Phillip. I dont care what you throw at me the fact that the govt can seize home and land that are paid off for bare minimums of back taxes is just wrong. I would argue that any seizure of land and property for back taxes should be illegal but I give you that there might be some extreme circumstances that require it. Instead of people being up in arms about this I keep getting called names and have people defending it. Amazing.


Did we have more freedom when the government was seizing vast amounts of land from the original owners than we do now hen land can be seized for non payment of taxes? Did we have more freedom when minorities and women were prevented from ownership of land at all?

Maybe this is the era of freedom you were refering to?

According to this Harris county document, C.W. Bassett owed $2.40 in back taxes. The tax assessor seized his property, "One Negro girl named Loise, about ten years old and slave for life," and offered her for sale at public auction to pay the taxes. There were no bidders, and Loise was purchased by the state for $5.90. Her fate is unknown.
 
2012-08-09 12:54:22 PM

walkingtall: You want the default position that the govt can take your land at its whim unless you stop it?


It's not at a whim.

walkingtall: I think the process should be on the govt having the burden of proof that taking your land is necessary without you having to fight to keep what is yours.


That's what the courts are for, to hear the arguments of both sides and then make a decision according to the law and legal precedent. Additionally, the burden of proof is on the government; they must show why they are taking the land and how its intended use qualifies under eminent domain laws.

walkingtall: We seem to have very different ideas on how govt should work.


Apparently. You seem to think that governments should do nothing and have no power to enforce their laws or try and create a better society for their citizens.

walkingtall: govt can seize home and land that are paid off for bare minimums of back taxes


You still haven't provided any evidence to support this assertion, other than a nebulous "It happens all the time".
 
2012-08-09 01:06:52 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Serious Black: tenpoundsofcheese: farkityfarker: There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?

Do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?

In short, even Grover Norquist, the "guru" of what constitutes a tax increase and what doesn't, has no goddamn clue whether letting a temporary tax cut expire through a sunset clause means you are raising somebody's taxes.

Oh, I didn't realize I was speaking to Mr. Norquist. I thought I was responding to farkityfarker.

But I will try again, do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?


You're really bad at pretzel logic, but it's interesting to watch your rhetorical yoga.

Let's see. Does your business' profit go up or down after you turn in your embezzling accountant to the police? So clearly, terminating your accountant increases your profits.
 
2012-08-09 01:19:30 PM
lolpics.se
 
2012-08-09 01:19:32 PM

Flaming Yawn: tenpoundsofcheese: Serious Black: tenpoundsofcheese: farkityfarker: There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?

Do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?

In short, even Grover Norquist, the "guru" of what constitutes a tax increase and what doesn't, has no goddamn clue whether letting a temporary tax cut expire through a sunset clause means you are raising somebody's taxes.

Oh, I didn't realize I was speaking to Mr. Norquist. I thought I was responding to farkityfarker.

But I will try again, do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?

You're really bad at pretzel logic, but it's interesting to watch your rhetorical yoga.

Let's see. Does your business' profit go up or down after you turn in your embezzling accountant to the police? So clearly, terminating your accountant increases your profits.


yes. for that year my profits are higher than when I had the embezzling accountant, all other things being equal. WTF is your point? That my profits were lower without the embezzlement?
 
2012-08-09 01:53:55 PM

walkingtall: Philip Francis Queeg: Who is the "we" you are speaking of? Wealthy white male land owners?

Sigh, yet another straw man. So now Im saying that since Im for property rights I am only for property rights for wealthy white males? You just keep beating that dead horse there Phillip. I dont care what you throw at me the fact that the govt can seize home and land that are paid off for bare minimums of back taxes is just wrong. I would argue that any seizure of land and property for back taxes should be illegal but I give you that there might be some extreme circumstances that require it. Instead of people being up in arms about this I keep getting called names and have people defending it. Amazing.


This point that seizure of property for failure to pay taxes is a "lost" right is hilarious. The reason you get called names is because everyone else with at least a high school or college education has heard of such seizures and the history of them. You seem to be ignorant of history, unwilling to learn, and want to declare an action that has been historically embraced for so long "illegal" because, well, just because.

I had a fun time just a week ago conducting a mineral rights search on behalf of my grandmother in northeast Montana. In searching back I cam across a document from 1889 detailing the seizure of property for failure to pay taxes. Now, Philip Francis Queeg provided a citation from 1849, so I don't feel obligated to produce a citation of my own. However, I think it illustrates the point quite nicely. While your personal opinion is that government seizing property for failure to pay taxes is "wrong," it has been a stable of our society for hundreds of years. When you enjoy the privileges and rights of the United States you also have to complete the duties, including the duty to pay taxes.

I just am amused how anyone who leans right politically favors free-riders and shirking the duties laid down by the Founding Fathers. It's almost as if the values of personal responsibility, religiosity, and respect for traditional authority are smoke-screens for selfishness and lack of empathy.
 
2012-08-09 02:08:18 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: oh, "they reset" is not a munging of words?


Talking to you is like talking to a small child. I shouldn't have to explain obvious things to you. Yes. "Reset" is munging. The point here being that your argument of stupid semantics is not an argument at all. You can twist the words and I can twist the words and there will never be a resolution because your argument isn't an argument, it's just time-wasting semantic drivel that you're using in lieu of developing a coherent and arguable opinion.

Christ but you are dense...

tenpoundsofcheese: That is not a socialist policy. Not even close.


Is it, or is it not, a case of the government using collective resources to build an army? Because that would be socialist. You don't get to pick and choose what is and isn't socialist. Building an army for a collective purpose with collective funds is just as socialist as building roads. It's collective ownership. It's a form of socialism.

I know you're just going to lie anyway and try to twist and contort some answer about how the military isn't really a collectively owned organization full of collectively owned resources supported by a pool of collective funds, so if you don't feel like responding feel free not to. I didn't expect you to be honest anyway.
 
2012-08-09 02:35:54 PM

coco ebert: I remember you posting before (I'm the farker with the Swiss hubby who has lived in Bern). How's life in Bern going? Hope all is well. :)


Ah, right! I remember too.

Bern's good. A bit warm and humid the last few days. One minor drawback: the Swiss can't make good beef to save their lives. It's all former dairy cattle and isn't really tasty. Fortunately, my wife and I went up to the UK for a week for the Olympics and some tasty meat/beer. Nom.

We've settled in nicely and, while we aren't really adopting well to the Swiss culture (we both just don't have the knack for language so that somewhat limits our social interactions with locals, but we're trying), we've met a bunch of other English speakers in town and get together for a bunch of activities now and again. Fun times.

How's life back in the States?
 
2012-08-09 02:35:57 PM

smitty04: A new report says wealthy Maryland residents may be moving out due to recent tax hikes - a finding that is sure to escalate the battle over taxing the American rich.


Is it possible that is for retirement? I bet you NYC/Long Island/NJ has an even higher number.

But no one moves of of the area for more job opportunities or better school systems. They DO move because living is cheaper, taxes are cheaper, and they can retire well.
 
2012-08-09 02:41:54 PM

Eleri: walkingtall: Philip Francis Queeg: Who is the "we" you are speaking of? Wealthy white male land owners?

Sigh, yet another straw man. So now Im saying that since Im for property rights I am only for property rights for wealthy white males? You just keep beating that dead horse there Phillip. I dont care what you throw at me the fact that the govt can seize home and land that are paid off for bare minimums of back taxes is just wrong. I would argue that any seizure of land and property for back taxes should be illegal but I give you that there might be some extreme circumstances that require it. Instead of people being up in arms about this I keep getting called names and have people defending it. Amazing.

This point that seizure of property for failure to pay taxes is a "lost" right is hilarious. The reason you get called names is because everyone else with at least a high school or college education has heard of such seizures and the history of them. You seem to be ignorant of history, unwilling to learn, and want to declare an action that has been historically embraced for so long "illegal" because, well, just because.

I had a fun time just a week ago conducting a mineral rights search on behalf of my grandmother in northeast Montana. In searching back I cam across a document from 1889 detailing the seizure of property for failure to pay taxes. Now, Philip Francis Queeg provided a citation from 1849, so I don't feel obligated to produce a citation of my own. However, I think it illustrates the point quite nicely. While your personal opinion is that government seizing property for failure to pay taxes is "wrong," it has been a stable of our society for hundreds of years. When you enjoy the privileges and rights of the United States you also have to complete the duties, including the duty to pay taxes.

I just am amused how anyone who leans right politically favors free-riders and shirking the duties laid down by the Founding Fathers. It's almost as if the values of personal responsibility, religiosity, and respect for traditional authority are smoke-screens for selfishness and lack of empathy.


Beyond this big point, if he really doesn't want the government to be able to seize property in order to pay for back taxes, I've asked him to provide an alternate enforcement mechanism. Shockingly, he has yet to respond to that question.
 
2012-08-09 03:16:09 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: The point here being that your argument of stupid semantics is not an argument at all.


It's his new schtick. He's been doing it for a couple of months now. He's really not worth the effort.
 
2012-08-09 04:14:38 PM
Why would french millionaires come to the USA to avoid high taxes? Have they not seen Obama's platform?
 
2012-08-09 04:43:45 PM

walkingtall: Vlad_the_Inaner: You're not alone. You are speaking in absolutes

It is absolutely true the govt does forcibly remove homeowners from land and homes for almost any amount of back property taxes. That is absolutely true. I am saying that giving that power was absolutely wrong. You can absolutely disagree but stating something that is factually true and happens every day is not speaking in nebulous absolutes as you seem to be implying.


By saying it is "absolutely wrong", you are saying that the government under no conditions can take possession. Not even if the owner owed a trillion dollars to someone.

Sorry, but it does seem like an extreme position. Go live in Somalia, where you won't have to worry about a government using due process of law to deal with such situations. Just some warlord shooting you to take it.
 
2012-08-09 06:08:51 PM

SlothB77: Why would french millionaires come to the USA to avoid high taxes? Have they not seen Obama's platform?


Enlighten us. Will people like Mitt Romney have to pay more than 15% taxes?
 
2012-08-09 07:19:52 PM

Hydra: NateGrey: This post is yet another example of why our economy is still so woefully drab and why it's only going to get worse - because rightists/conservatives like this so commonly found on Fark refuse to have an intelligent debate or be open minded about anything and are so ardently concrete in their ways of thinking that they will never change or critically examine it, and there is no amount of evidence they will ever accept as being sufficient even to begin to challenge their ideas. Ever.

Recognizing this and calling them on their bullshiat makes me an elitist, of course.

CPennypacker: In order for someone to have an intellectual debate with a rightie/republican they would have to be able to present an intellectual point to argue. But they can't because their positions are all based on superstition, ignorance, jealousy or just plain crotchety oldness.

James F. Campbell: Hydra, you are a gold standard kook. I don't think you have any right to be complaining to anyone about intelligent, open minded debates or rigid thinking. Like all conservatives, you are projecting: everything you have accused everyone else of doing is what you yourself are doing. Please kindly come down from your cross and fark off.


Exhibits A, B, and C, folks.

By the way, I've never called myself a conservative - I'm a libertarian (and if you knew anything about what the actual word "conservative" means, you would realize that YOU, in fact, are the true conservative here since you are in favor of ever-increasing government intervention in the operation of the economy, which is EXACTLY what has been going on for decades now).

/question to you three: what would it take for you to re-evaluate your personal stances on these issues? could anything actually change your mind? does this evidence actually exist, or are you so married to your worldview that you'll never change?


The irony of this post is that you come off like a 12 year old girl who is upset that someone insulted your favorite Disney boy band.
 
2012-08-09 07:59:03 PM

Lenny_da_Hog: It's his new schtick. He's been doing it for a couple of months now. He's really not worth the effort.


Part of the reason conservatives do nothing but lie anymore is because the "liberal" media won't call them on it. They get away with the Big Lie and Blizzard of Lies strategies just because everybody rolls their eyes and walks away instead of telling them to stop lying. The least we can do is point out these shiatstains and their ceaseless lies in threads like this.
 
2012-08-10 03:02:50 AM

doyner: FTFA: Perhaps Monsieur Hollande's leftist political base may be placated by skyrocketing tax rates on job creators...

Talking point terminology woven into the fabric of a fallacious argument followed by the argument that rich Frenchmen should take their ball and go home to Mississippi...pure pathological partisanship.

Will that mean we get to retire the ol' Freedom Fries terminology?


Yeah! we all know its poor people who create jobs!

/ why did you bring up political nonsense, this article is about french people coming to Mississippi nonsense.
 
2012-08-10 09:12:19 AM

ozarkmatt: Walking into this tab. Again. And will get smacked by the libs that live here. Fully expect that,

But I have to ask. There has NEVER been a situation where the government takes the public's cash willy nilly and it works out well.

Never Ever.

Am I wrong? Or am I gonna get a bunch of crap?

I'll check in the morn' see what else shows up. But since this Fark, I have a pretty good idea.


I'll be right back after I take a shower with Government water and take the trash out to the curb so the Government can pick it up.

Maybe someone can post a pic of what happens when the Gummint stops taking money for those things?
 
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