walkingtall: In not saying we are perfect. The wealth discrepancy and just plain greed is causing serious issues. The road we took to get here might not be the road you think. You simply want to blame large companies greed and lack of wealthy people paying taxes as the cause of all the funneling to the top. Along with the buying of govt. On that we are agreed I am not buying that as the sole causes. The fixes for these issues might not be what you think they are either. If it can be fixed.

Aside from being wrong and having "All Your Base"-level grammar, what the hell did that have to do with what I said?

CPennypacker: I work for a french bank. I travel there 5-6 times a year. I work closely with my french colleagues every day and have made many friends who work in other industries while visiting.

I worked for a company that does Phase 3 clinical trials so I worked many years directly with French doctors and nurses and technical people. I have been to Europe to set up offices. If that is all you got I am sure I am just as knowledgeable as you are. And I can tell you trying to work within the French ideas of work is very daunting. Every other day off and offices are empty at 4 pm no matter what. I am well aware of French pride in the fact that work is a much smaller part of their lives then Americans. I got it rubbed in my face every dang week but it makes getting things done and running good business hard. There has to be balance. Imho the French took it too far the other way.

walkingtall: CPennypacker: I work for a french bank. I travel there 5-6 times a year. I work closely with my french colleagues every day and have made many friends who work in other industries while visiting.

I worked for a company that does Phase 3 clinical trials so I worked many years directly with French doctors and nurses and technical people. I have been to Europe to set up offices. If that is all you got I am sure I am just as knowledgeable as you are. And I can tell you trying to work within the French ideas of work is very daunting. Every other day off and offices are empty at 4 pm no matter what. I am well aware of French pride in the fact that work is a much smaller part of their lives then Americans. I got it rubbed in my face every dang week but it makes getting things done and running good business hard. There has to be balance. Imho the French took it too far the other way.

Yeah all the employees in my company are really lazy. Its why they are the world's largest bank. Laziness.

someonelse: walkingtall: We used to have freedom.

OK, wtf, I'll bite. What freedom do you no longer have?

Freedom not have the Government blow you up with a predator drone.

tenpoundsofcheese: farkityfarker: There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?

Do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?

Back in January 2011, with regards to the expiration of the 2001/2003 tax cut packages, "Not continuing a tax cut is not technically a tax increase," Norquist said.

But then in June 2012, Norquist said of the expiration of those same tax cut packages that "I think the American people would look at anything that raised taxes from where they are today to be a tax increase."

But then in December 2011, with regards to the FICA tax cut expiration, Norquist said "For the president to run around and say not continuing a temporary tax cut is an increase is inaccurate."

In short, even Grover Norquist, the "guru" of what constitutes a tax increase and what doesn't, has no goddamn clue whether letting a temporary tax cut expire through a sunset clause means you are raising somebody's taxes.

tenpoundsofcheese: By they way, they are now the 0bama tax cuts since he signed off on them.

Please, run with that. Too many idiots think Obama has increased income taxes when he hasn't.

By all means, tell us more about Obama's tax cuts for job creators.

Fluorescent Testicle: I can absolutely guarantee you that this guy thinks the OWS movement consists entirely of lazy college students with iPads and Starbucks frappuccinos, unwashed hippies, welfare queens looking for a handout, violent criminals and domestic terrorists.

Then you would be wrong. I sympathize with the OWS crowd to a degree. I really do. Im not some rich guy making tons of money that can sit above the fray. I am in the middle of it. I have been laid off from jobs. I have struggled to put food on the table. I have been so poor as to have to live in a rented house for 6 weeks with no power until I could get my first paycheck. I have raised 4 kids alone. You people think you know me but you do not. I fully comprehend the problems we have as a country. I just disagree that trading all our freedoms to try and fix it is the answer.

imontheinternet: NateGrey: walkingtall: Are you denying that any thread on fark includes at least 90% of the posters saying how much more like Europe America should be? How bad the US is compared to Europe? Really? Who is living in a fantasy world? Geez talk about denial. Just read this one darn thread as an example.

Do you have even one citation or reference to someone saying how Europe is so amazing?

Or is this like how you had death threats by Fark posters and couldnt even link to one instance of it.

Silly ad hominem conservative talking point. If you say, "France has shown that nuclear power can be utilized safely with the proper controls and safety measures," it somehow translates to "France is better than America in all things" and elicits an emotional, nationalistic response in the wild teabagger.

wrong on that one.
when Tea Party members get reminded that France uses so much nuclear power (as do many European countries) the response is if they can do it, why can't we do more?

Lenny_da_Hog: Just because Mississippi ranks 50th of the 50 states in education is nothing to worry about.

"Welcome to Mississippi, where you'll be just as literate in English as a native!"

Serious Black: tenpoundsofcheese: farkityfarker: There are actually people who really believe that letting Bush's "temporary" tax cuts expire constitutes a tax increase?

Do people's taxes decrease or increase after the tax cuts expire?

Back in January 2011, with regards to the expiration of the 2001/2003 tax cut packages, "Not continuing a tax cut is not technically a tax increase," Norquist said.

But then in June 2012, Norquist said of the expiration of those same tax cut packages that "I think the American people would look at anything that raised taxes from where they are today to be a tax increase."

But then in December 2011, with regards to the FICA tax cut expiration, Norquist said "For the president to run around and say not continuing a temporary tax cut is an increase is inaccurate."

In short, even Grover Norquist, the "guru" of what constitutes a tax increase and what doesn't, has no goddamn clue whether letting a temporary tax cut expire through a sunset clause means you are raising somebody's taxes.

Actually he knows very well when the expiration of a tax cut constitutes a tax increase: if the expiring tax cut is for the top income bracket or capital gains it is a massive tax increase, if the expiring tax cut is for the lower or middle class it is most definitely not a tax increase.

\Hypocrisy: the only constancy in the GOP.

walkingtall: [meaningless garbage]

Ah, auto-posted the wrong bot response before, eh?

Sorry, I don't debate with bots.

tenpoundsofcheese: wrong on that one.

Get back on your walkingtall sockpuppet and answer my damn questions.

walkingtall: You people think you know me but you do not. I fully comprehend the problems we have as a country. I just disagree that trading all our freedoms to try and fix it is the answer.

If you think that those are our choices, then I highly question your comprehension of the problems we have as a country.

tenpoundsofcheese: imontheinternet: NateGrey: walkingtall: Are you denying that any thread on fark includes at least 90% of the posters saying how much more like Europe America should be? How bad the US is compared to Europe? Really? Who is living in a fantasy world? Geez talk about denial. Just read this one darn thread as an example.

Do you have even one citation or reference to someone saying how Europe is so amazing?

Or is this like how you had death threats by Fark posters and couldnt even link to one instance of it.

Silly ad hominem conservative talking point. If you say, "France has shown that nuclear power can be utilized safely with the proper controls and safety measures," it somehow translates to "France is better than America in all things" and elicits an emotional, nationalistic response in the wild teabagger.

wrong on that one.
when Tea Party members get reminded that France uses so much nuclear power (as do many European countries) the response is if they can do it, why can't we do more?

But they opposed the federal grant to North Carolina for a new nuke plant.

Teabaggers are morons.

CPennypacker: Yeah all the employees in my company are really lazy. Its why they are the world's largest bank. Laziness.

They were not lazy. They were some of the best people I have ever worked with. You are really going to use a bank as an example of people working hard? I worked for Suntrust before it went gone and by American standards it was a cakewalk. Best job I ever had since ive never had a government job. It was a little stressful because if you made mistakes it cost people real money but other then that it was very easy. Lots of time off and easy hours. It is a bit different in the real world of business.

walkingtall: False premise. They don't create jobs.

How do you figure? I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income. These measure penalize people with wealth and income. Not sure how you disconnect the two.

This blog uses the shoot the messenger tactic.

If you think that they would close their multimillion/billion dollar businesses, pack up and move their entire lives somewhere else because they have to pay a measly 3% more then you are the biggest moron on the face of the planet, i.e. Tea Party member.

coco ebert: Why do you think that having a better healthcare system or transport options LIMITS your freedom? Wouldn't that expand it- by making mobility and health more accessible? I don't understand this mentality, and I'm an American.

Because socialism.

Mississippi? Mississippi? Oui! is the river that New Orleans is on, non?

We used to own that! C'est Bon!

Well, this has become a troll playpen rather quickly. Off to another thread.

Actually he knows very well when the expiration of a tax cut constitutes a tax increase: if the expiring tax cut is for the top income bracket or capital gains it is a massive tax increase, if the expiring tax cut is for the lower or middle class it is most definitely not a tax increase.

Let's just use liberal logic then.

We'll call it a revenue decrease for American citizens on behalf of the government.

Skleenar: coco ebert: Why do you think that having a better healthcare system or transport options LIMITS your freedom? Wouldn't that expand it- by making mobility and health more accessible? I don't understand this mentality, and I'm an American.

Because socialism.

The freedom not to have any balance between work and home life and the freedom for his children to suffer when he is laid off is very important to him.

Pourquoi n'est-ce pas joueur de banjo portait pas de chaussures? Et où sont ses dents?

walkingtall: CPennypacker: Yeah all the employees in my company are really lazy. Its why they are the world's largest bank. Laziness.

They were not lazy. They were some of the best people I have ever worked with. You are really going to use a bank as an example of people working hard? I worked for Suntrust before it went gone and by American standards it was a cakewalk. Best job I ever had since ive never had a government job. It was a little stressful because if you made mistakes it cost people real money but other then that it was very easy. Lots of time off and easy hours. It is a bit different in the real world of business.

Yes, tell me more about how things are in the real world. Where france is a post-apocalyptic wasteland.

SquiggelyGrounders: keylock71: SquiggelyGrounders: Can Fark conservatives explain any of this? Serious questions; no sarcasm.

Good luck getting a serious answer, my friend... I can't even get one of them to explain what Romney is going to do as President that's going to improve the economy.

Im starting to think there are no true conservatives on Fark. Just trolls and parrots.

You're confusing conservatives and Republicans again.

Skleenar: If you think that those are our choices, then I highly question your comprehension of the problems we have as a country.

Of course it isnt our only choice. It seems to be the choice we have chosen. It is the choice advocated on fark. Socialism doesn't work. More socialism doesn't work faster then less socialism but it doesnt work. You can try and mix socialism in a little bit at a time and it seems to work but in the end it wont work. There might be ways to implement some socialist ideas without socialism such as progressive tax rates. Im not convinced that even that is effective. Im not a fair tax or flat tax person but Im not convinced even what appears to be benign progressive tax structure is a good long term thing. Etc etc etc. Fark advocates socialism in one degree or another. My point is that this is bad. It cant be good. To do so would trade freedom for fixes that wont work for one and will erode the one thing that is worth fighting for.

coco ebert: Instead, we hear the discourse of people like walkingtall right and left in the political class and media. So I'm curious why people think this way and how such a view can be changed.

So you are saying Im dead set against better health care and transport options? Talk about a strawman argument. Of course I want those things. You are saying that if I disagree with how to get those things I am against those things? Really?

walkingtall: Skleenar: If you think that those are our choices, then I highly question your comprehension of the problems we have as a country.

Of course it isnt our only choice. It seems to be the choice we have chosen. It is the choice advocated on fark. Socialism doesn't work. More socialism doesn't work faster then less socialism but it doesnt work. You can try and mix socialism in a little bit at a time and it seems to work but in the end it wont work. There might be ways to implement some socialist ideas without socialism such as progressive tax rates. Im not convinced that even that is effective. Im not a fair tax or flat tax person but Im not convinced even what appears to be benign progressive tax structure is a good long term thing. Etc etc etc. Fark advocates socialism in one degree or another. My point is that this is bad. It cant be good. To do so would trade freedom for fixes that wont work for one and will erode the one thing that is worth fighting for.

Please identify the Period in US history that you think best exemplifies the freedoms we have lost.

walkingtall: Skleenar: If you think that those are our choices, then I highly question your comprehension of the problems we have as a country.

Of course it isnt our only choice. It seems to be the choice we have chosen. It is the choice advocated on fark. Socialism doesn't work. More socialism doesn't work faster then less socialism but it doesnt work. You can try and mix socialism in a little bit at a time and it seems to work but in the end it wont work. There might be ways to implement some socialist ideas without socialism such as progressive tax rates. Im not convinced that even that is effective. Im not a fair tax or flat tax person but Im not convinced even what appears to be benign progressive tax structure is a good long term thing. Etc etc etc. Fark advocates socialism in one degree or another. My point is that this is bad. It cant be good. To do so would trade freedom for fixes that wont work for one and will erode the one thing that is worth fighting for. I don't know what I am talking about.

I've translated your post to English for the "derp" impaired.

rufus-t-firefly: tenpoundsofcheese: By they way, they are now the 0bama tax cuts since he signed off on them.

Please, run with that. Too many idiots think Obama has increased income taxes when he hasn't.

0bama has increased taxes and fees. Not income taxes.

By all means, tell us more about Obama's tax cuts for job creators.

ok. 0bama admitted that raising taxes on the job creators is not a good thing to do during a tough economy, so he signed off on keeping their taxes lower.

max_pooper: I've translated your post to English for the "derp" impaired.

You can get mad at me and deny it all you want. I dont care how much you sugar coat it and try to hide it and deny it. Socialism is socialism and it isn't good.

Yeah, I bet all the French millionaires are itching to move from places like Paris or Marseilles or Nice to Mississippi, instead of some low-tax Mediterranean or Atlantic island...

walkingtall: Skleenar: If you think that those are our choices, then I highly question your comprehension of the problems we have as a country.

Of course it isnt our only choice. It seems to be the choice we have chosen. It is the choice advocated on fark. Socialism doesn't work. More socialism doesn't work faster then less socialism but it doesnt work. You can try and mix socialism in a little bit at a time and it seems to work but in the end it wont work. There might be ways to implement some socialist ideas without socialism such as progressive tax rates. Im not convinced that even that is effective. Im not a fair tax or flat tax person but Im not convinced even what appears to be benign progressive tax structure is a good long term thing. Etc etc etc. Fark advocates socialism in one degree or another. My point is that this is bad. It cant be good. To do so would trade freedom for fixes that wont work for one and will erode the one thing that is worth fighting for.

Progressive tax rates are a socialist idea? Are you seriously calling Adam Smith, the intellectual godfather of capitalism, a socialist? Whatever the hell you're smoking or snorting, pass some my way, because that must be some AWESOME stuff there!

Philip Francis Queeg: Please identify the Period in US history that you think best exemplifies the freedoms we have lost.

Look at his horrendous punctuation and his repetitive, rambling, nonsensical posts that rarely have anything at all to do with what he's responding to. He's either a bot or he's copy-pasting.

coco ebert: walkingtall: Glockenspiel Hero: Step back and ask yourself why you think the American way of life is automatically better.

For one reason and one reason alone. We used to have freedom.I wish the US had a better healthcare system. I wish we had better public transportation options. Im not willing to sacrifce my freedom to get it. You might be. Im not. Europe long ago traded freedom for welfare states. We are on the same path unfortunately. England is starting to reap the rewards of this with the ridiculou overreach of the government into people's lives. The rest of Europe is starting to follow. The most egregious welfare states are collapsing. That is just one small issue with European society.

Why do you think that having a better healthcare system or transport options LIMITS your freedom? Wouldn't that expand it- by making mobility and health more accessible? I don't understand this mentality, and I'm an American.

Taxes.

Some people think they're better off with an extra $24 in their pocket and no school for the kids in their community.

Hydra: This thread is yet another example of why our economy is still so woefully drab and why it's only going to get worse - because leftists/progressives like those so commonly found on Fark refuse to have an intelligent debate or be open minded about anything and are so ardently concrete in their ways of thinking that they will never change or critically examine it, and there is no amount of evidence they will ever accept as being sufficient even to begin to challenge their ideas. Ever.

Recognizing this and calling them on their bullshiat makes me a racist, of course.

lolwut

walkingtall: CPennypacker: I work for a french bank. I travel there 5-6 times a year. I work closely with my french colleagues every day and have made many friends who work in other industries while visiting.

I worked for a company that does Phase 3 clinical trials so I worked many years directly with French doctors and nurses and technical people. I have been to Europe to set up offices. If that is all you got I am sure I am just as knowledgeable as you are. And I can tell you trying to work within the French ideas of work is very daunting. Every other day off and offices are empty at 4 pm no matter what. I am well aware of French pride in the fact that work is a much smaller part of their lives then Americans. I got it rubbed in my face every dang week but it makes getting things done and running good business hard. There has to be balance. Imho the French took it too far the other way.

I also have experience working and living in France, and what you are saying about French work culture is nonsense. The statistics don't agree with you either.

French productivity rates are the among the best in the world. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, they are the 6th highest, ahead of Germany and the UK (GDP per hour worked).

Link

France's problem is a combination of low worker participation rates and excessive labor regulations.

their 37 hour a week law is bullshiat, by the way. there are many exemptions to the rule, including sales staff (including many retail workers), "management" (most office jobs), caretakers (cooks, nannies, janitors, etc).

walkingtall: coco ebert: Instead, we hear the discourse of people like walkingtall right and left in the political class and media. So I'm curious why people think this way and how such a view can be changed.

So you are saying Im dead set against better health care and transport options? Talk about a strawman argument. Of course I want those things. You are saying that if I disagree with how to get those things I am against those things? Really?

Yes, that is how people argue here. Sad thing is, I think they really believe that.

Oh, and if you disagree with the President you are a racist ("we get it, he's black")

Philip Francis Queeg: way south: HotWingConspiracy: way south: If you overtax the rich folks and chase them off, how does government replace the jobs they take with them?

Give money to defense contractors?

And how exactly would they take jobs with them in the first place? Are you one of those farking dullards that think rich people just create or destroy jobs for shiats on a whim?

From my personal experience: We used to have a fuel program that gave discounts to ships. It attracted alot of yachts (and wealthy passengers) to the waterfront stores.
Then someone decided that they didn't deserve such a nice benefit and ended the system.

The ships moved down island.
I'll let you guess what happened to the jobs of the mechanics and painters that maintained them.

Its not a scenario that covers for all situations, but people have a tendency to find opportunity in the places that they live and work. Especially if the laws cater to their financial desires.
If a wealthy man can make more money running their operation in the US than they can in France, the scenery wont prevent them from moving.

Who was paying for the discount?

Money not collected in fuel tax, if I recall.
So we were paying.

But I look at it this way: you dont profit from eating the cheese in your mousetrap.
The owners were willing to put up with US laws, and spend here, because it was cheaper to tank here.
What was lost in fuel tax was regained whenever some guy bought overpriced jewlery for his mistress in a waterfront store.

When that enticement wasn't here, they would flag out of places like Panama or St Maarten. The regulations are more relaxed and the labor costs are lower.

walkingtall: False premise. They don't create jobs.

How do you figure? I have never gotten a job from anyone that didnt have a significant amount of either wealth or income. These measure penalize people with wealth and income. Not sure how you disconnect the two.

But how do they make their money? Do they sell products exclusive to other rich people, or do they, like most of the largest and most successful corporations in the US, depend on a solid base of middle- and lower-income Americans with disposable cash? Let's just put it this way: a billionaire isn't going to buy 1000 times as many cars as a millionaire. Like SquiggelyGrounders said, there are diminishing returns.

I also have an idea -- I wouldn't quite call it a theory -- that the excess savings by the top earners in the late 90's through mid 00's also contributed to the financial crisis, because they were looking for higher returns than you or I would from just putting our money in our savings account. Generally, the more money you put into any one single investment, the lower the % yield you get -- this is most obviously true of bonds where the inverse relationship is common knowledge, and it also works as a framework for thinking about stock if you treat dividends the same way as you do coupon payments. In any case, if you drive up the price of an instrument, you have to start looking for something else to put your money into to get the desired returns. So as the rich accumulated more wealthy, money started moving to illiquid, highly risky instruments like mortgage-backed securities and credit-default swaps on those securities. But those instruments are still ultimately predicated on the solvency of the middle and lower class, and when middle-class earnings faltered the whole house of cards collapsed. THAT, in my opinion, is the cost of inequality.

Hydra: This thread is yet another example of why our economy is still so woefully drab and why it's only going to get worse - because leftists/progressives like those so commonly found on Fark refuse to have an intelligent debate or be open minded about anything and are so ardently concrete in their ways of thinking that they will never change or critically examine it, and there is no amount of evidence they will ever accept as being sufficient even to begin to challenge their ideas. Ever.

Recognizing this and calling them on their bullshiat makes me a racist, of course.

This post is yet another example of why our economy is still so woefully drab and why it's only going to get worse - because rightists/conservatives like this so commonly found on Fark refuse to have an intelligent debate or be open minded about anything and are so ardently concrete in their ways of thinking that they will never change or critically examine it, and there is no amount of evidence they will ever accept as being sufficient even to begin to challenge their ideas. Ever.

Recognizing this and calling them on their bullshiat makes me an elitist, of course.