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(White House)   TFer's friend's petition to force TSA to review "full body imaging" at airports has more than 20000 signatures; will go in front of Obama if it gets 4600 more. Difficulty: By tomorrow. DIT   (petitions.whitehouse.gov) divider line 290
    More: Spiffy, TSA, White House, rulemaking process, United States courts of appeals  
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8526 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Aug 2012 at 1:52 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-08 02:09:35 PM  
Oh joy! I have to pass through O'Hare next week.
 
2012-08-08 02:09:43 PM  

Somacandra: wineskigolf: If you refuse to be searched you don't fly.

[i.imgur.com image 318x283]

I've decided to become a commercial airline pilot who refuses to ever be searched. I can't believe I didn't think of this before. Just sit back and let the Benji's roll in. Its not like I need to be searched to do my job or anything anyway.


Flight crew (not sure about airport personnel) are exempt from searches. I see them go through the checkpoints without going through the medical detector or having their bag scanned almost every time I go to the airport.

Last time I went through, they only scanned every other person (including myself, but I opted for the pat down). That doesn't make any sense to me. If we're not scanning everyone, it's not a very effective system. Some of the checkpoints didn't even have the scanner, which means probably only 1 out of 50 people entering the airport got scanned. Sounds like good odds /sarcasm.

Not only are you being irradiated, but it's also a waste of time and money while not keeping anyone safe.
 
2012-08-08 02:10:34 PM  
This is a stupid idea. Planes are incredibly high value targets for terrorists and this is a great way to intimidate them. You don't like it, don't fly. Drive, walk, swim, whatever. 4th amendment doesn't apply IMO as its a voluntary activity that has been attacked many times over the last 40 years.
 
2012-08-08 02:10:58 PM  
Absolutely. Anything I can do get to shine a spotlight on the TSA's shenanigans.

** clicks link **

Wait, you mean I have to create an account? Awwww, man.
 
2012-08-08 02:12:12 PM  

gunga galunga: Absolutely. Anything I can do get to shine a spotlight on the TSA's shenanigans.

** clicks link **

Wait, you mean I have to create an account? Awwww, man.


Why not? Far too easy to abuse without some form of user verification.
 
2012-08-08 02:13:27 PM  
Signed it.
 
2012-08-08 02:14:00 PM  

peterquince: Here's the deal. A federal court told the TSA (airport security) that they had to "promptly" review the use of the "rapiscan" bodyscans in airports. They use them on everyone going through O'Hare. Aside from the fact that the scanners cause cancer, and they probably violate the 4th amendment, AND they have cost us $2.4 billion, they have never even once uncovered a bomb. This is pure pork money.

Oh, and former Homeland Security officials have made a butt-load on the sale of these things ($170,000 each) after they left the Bush Administration. [Citation]

So of course, it's been a year and no action at all. This petition is asking the administration to force TSA to comply.

Here's the deal, this petition thing needs 25,000 signatures to get in front of Obama. By tomorrow. It's getting pretty close, but please consider signing this to push it over the edge. Yes, you have to confirm an email address, but I've never gotten any spam from them.


So don't fly. Take a f*cking bus.

Some people have too much time on their hands.
 
2012-08-08 02:14:37 PM  

wineskigolf: What's wrong with the scanning? I go through it at least 4 times a week. It's no big deal.


What about the court order directing the TSA to provide information to the public & the TSA doing nothing?

You okay with a government agency ignoring a federal court order?
 
2012-08-08 02:14:56 PM  

Aarontology: I like refusing and making them go through the process of frisking me.


Yeah, same here. I've got enough radiation exposure as it is.

Yes, I realize I'm flying on a plane and getting exposure there too. If I do these days it's for work or going somewhere where other travel isn't really practical. And I don't need more. Not to mention the pat down, to me, is actually *less* of an invasion of privacy.
 
2012-08-08 02:15:22 PM  

indarwinsshadow: peterquince: Here's the deal. A federal court told the TSA (airport security) that they had to "promptly" review the use of the "rapiscan" bodyscans in airports. They use them on everyone going through O'Hare. Aside from the fact that the scanners cause cancer, and they probably violate the 4th amendment, AND they have cost us $2.4 billion, they have never even once uncovered a bomb. This is pure pork money.

Oh, and former Homeland Security officials have made a butt-load on the sale of these things ($170,000 each) after they left the Bush Administration. [Citation]

So of course, it's been a year and no action at all. This petition is asking the administration to force TSA to comply.

Here's the deal, this petition thing needs 25,000 signatures to get in front of Obama. By tomorrow. It's getting pretty close, but please consider signing this to push it over the edge. Yes, you have to confirm an email address, but I've never gotten any spam from them.

So don't fly. Take a f*cking bus.

Some people have too much time on their hands.


It's not about the scanners. It's about getting a federal agency to comply with a court order. Why would you be opposed to that?
 
2012-08-08 02:15:32 PM  
signed
 
2012-08-08 02:15:36 PM  

Surpheon: I don't give a rats ass about the modesty issue or radiation fears, but I am pissed as hell that the damn things are _slow_ compared to a good old metal detector. Both in the time for the scan and the added time from having to empty pockets of absolutely everything, not just metal. I'll sign if only in hopes of getting back to slightly less cumbersome security theater.


Slow? It's about 15 sec tops usually there is a back log at the metal dectectors anyway as the people looking at the x-ray machine get their jollies at looking at girls naughty toys in their carry on bags, so the time it takes is about the same.
 
2012-08-08 02:16:36 PM  
Unless this is for more powerful scanners that can see clearer... no thanks...
 
2012-08-08 02:17:14 PM  

wineskigolf: What's wrong with the scanning? I go through it at least 4 times a week. It's no big deal.


A complex combinations of economics and politics (through propagandizing).

Economically, the cost of these things is a straight loss. Destruction is not profit: since the scanners do nothing useful, society is left bereft of the monetary value of one scanner for each one owned and operated. It's the same as if you randomly went and burned down somebody's house every week: you can argue that you've done a great service making work for contractors and construction workers and inspectors and the like, but the insurance companies lose money and then go and raise everyone's insurance rates to compensate for the distributed risk of a total loss pay-out on homeowner's insurance (i.e. if you've got a 1/1000 chance each week of having your house burned down and your house costs $250,000, then you pay $250/wk more in insurance to cover the risk OR the insurance company soon goes bankrupt).

Basically the people selling the scanners are leeches on society, like muggers and Nigerian scammers, just taking peoples' money and offering nothing in return.



As for politics, it's easy to get people to let you put in all kinds of crazy tyrannical 1984 conspiracy theorist loony stuff if they're afraid of being killed. Cameras and microphones along the streets and sidewalks, increased police power, etc. Where I live, we're encouraged to spy on our neighbors: if you see someone acting "suspiciously" you should call the police, and they claim someone is "suspicious" if they look nervous, or inappropriately happy, or appear to be talking to themselves... the propaganda here even goes so far as to imply that if somebody seems to be under stress and is furiously texting on their cell phone, they may be part of a terrorist plot to blow up the train, and calling the police immediately "could save your life".

Posters and pictures of bloody boxes here help give us an image of fear. Yes, they show a picture of a cardboard box that has blood soaked into one corner and is leaking red fluid, and say "SUSPICIOUS PACKAGE" (severed head in a box?). Routinely searching people is a good way to remind folks that the government is "protecting" you. Bringing in multi-million-dollar expensive high-tech machines that use gamma, phi-boson, and tachyon scans to do a full-depth physical scan and detect bombs and guns and knives shows people that the threat is more serious than a simple pat-down or looking for a suspicious character. The little old lady next to you could have a nuclear weapon in her purse.

With all this fear, we're encouraged to let the government do anything they want to "ensure our safety." People still make excuses for FDR throwing every Japanese and German person--even natural born American citizens of a generation or two from Japanese descent--into concentration camps "to protect us", but I think the trade-off was too high. We're not here because we're free; we're here because the government has decided to let our leashes out far enough for us to trot around and stretch our legs. They want to remind us that the leashes are there so they can catch us if we go wandering off a cliff? I'd rather take my chances with the cliff.



Costs aren't just in terms of money, I guess.
 
2012-08-08 02:17:51 PM  

Boxingoutsider: This is a stupid idea. Planes are incredibly high value targets for terrorists and this is a great way to intimidate them. You don't like it, don't fly. Drive, walk, swim, whatever. 4th amendment doesn't apply IMO as its a voluntary activity that has been attacked many times over the last 40 years.


All the huge pussies who are scared of terrorists can drive, walk, swim, whatever.
 
2012-08-08 02:19:13 PM  
Signed. 4437 to go. Let's get this done.
 
2012-08-08 02:19:56 PM  
Don't they already review the full body images? know what I mean say no more?
 
2012-08-08 02:20:17 PM  

Boxingoutsider: This is a stupid idea. Planes are incredibly high value targets for terrorists and this is a great way to intimidate them. You don't like it, don't fly. Drive, walk, swim, whatever. 4th amendment doesn't apply IMO as its a voluntary activity that has been attacked many times over the last 40 years.


Dumbfarks like you are the reason the 4th amendment is dying. Because you let them take it away. Terrorists don't give a shiat about laws. Governments are the biggest terrorists there are, and always have been. By your logic virtually every daily activity is voluntary. They can take it away too and they are working damn hard to be able to do so.
 
2012-08-08 02:20:32 PM  

indarwinsshadow: peterquince: Here's the deal. A federal court told the TSA (airport security) that they had to "promptly" review the use of the "rapiscan" bodyscans in airports. They use them on everyone going through O'Hare. Aside from the fact that the scanners cause cancer, and they probably violate the 4th amendment, AND they have cost us $2.4 billion, they have never even once uncovered a bomb. This is pure pork money.

Oh, and former Homeland Security officials have made a butt-load on the sale of these things ($170,000 each) after they left the Bush Administration. [Citation]

So of course, it's been a year and no action at all. This petition is asking the administration to force TSA to comply.

Here's the deal, this petition thing needs 25,000 signatures to get in front of Obama. By tomorrow. It's getting pretty close, but please consider signing this to push it over the edge. Yes, you have to confirm an email address, but I've never gotten any spam from them.

So don't fly. Take a f*cking bus.


Except the TSA is working on getting in the bus/train/subway business. Sounds awesome.
 
2012-08-08 02:20:40 PM  
The court has ruled and if the TSA has not complied with the court's order, it is a matter for the court to hold them in contempt and enjoin them to cease and desist in their use of the scanners until it's order has been satisfied. I cannot see how a petition can help here. The Office of the President of the United States cannot be compelled to action by a citizen petition. But the voting booth can. (make that should)
 
2012-08-08 02:20:53 PM  

wineskigolf: Implied consent



If you don't know the answer then just admit it. Pulling your answer at of your ass (or worse off of what they post in the airport) isn't acceptable. Your answer is a dramatic oversimplification that fails to respond to the previous post since it doesn't provide a distinguishing characteristic. One could simply respond that driving on roads is "implied consent" to a search of your vehicle which would be an error since it contravenes Supreme Court precedent. The correct answer is that it is an special needs search which balances the need to conduct the search versus the intrusiveness of the search. This is an exception to the warrant requirement for searches as well as the need to show individualized suspicion.
 
2012-08-08 02:21:22 PM  

indarwinsshadow: peterquince: Here's the deal. A federal court told the TSA (airport security) that they had to "promptly" review the use of the "rapiscan" bodyscans in airports. They use them on everyone going through O'Hare. Aside from the fact that the scanners cause cancer, and they probably violate the 4th amendment, AND they have cost us $2.4 billion, they have never even once uncovered a bomb. This is pure pork money.

Oh, and former Homeland Security officials have made a butt-load on the sale of these things ($170,000 each) after they left the Bush Administration. [Citation]

So of course, it's been a year and no action at all. This petition is asking the administration to force TSA to comply.

Here's the deal, this petition thing needs 25,000 signatures to get in front of Obama. By tomorrow. It's getting pretty close, but please consider signing this to push it over the edge. Yes, you have to confirm an email address, but I've never gotten any spam from them.

So don't fly. Take a f*cking bus.

Some people have too much time on their hands.


I recognize your concerns, but I also believe in political engagement. Even if it doesn't work, at least for a minute we weren't apathetic. And if that helps even a half of an iota, it's maybe worth it.

BTW - the petition's gotten almost 200 "signatures" since this went green. Thanks everybody!
 
2012-08-08 02:21:33 PM  
Since when do petitions have time limits?

Related:
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I would like to have A body transplant, but we need More money. Mommy doesn't work because she said nobody Hires crying people. I said, " Don't cry, Mommy and " and She hugged my burlap bag. Mommy always gives me hugs, Even though she's allergic to burlap and it makes her Sneeze and chafes her real bad.

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Then they will come back to earth and go to the Pope, And he will take up A collection IN church and send All the money to the doctors. The doctors could help Me get better then. Maybe one day I will be able to Play baseball. Right now I can only be third base.

Every time you forward this letter, the astronauts can Take more prayers to the angels and my dream will be Closer to coming true. Please help me. Mommy is so Sad and and I want A body. I don't want my leaves to rot Before I turn 10

If you don't forward this email, that's okay. Mommy Says you're A mean and heartless bastard who doesn't Care about A poor little boy with only A head. She Says that if you don't stew IN the raw pit of your own Guilt-ridden stomach, she hopes you die A long slow, Horrible death and then burn forever IN hell.

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I try to be happy, but it's hard. I wish I had A Kitty. I wish I could hold A kitty. I wish I could Hold A kitty that wouldn't chew ON me and try to bury Its turds IN the leaves of my burlap body. I wish that Very much.

Thank You,

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2012-08-08 02:23:16 PM  
 
2012-08-08 02:23:53 PM  
Signed.
 
2012-08-08 02:24:38 PM  

JackieRabbit: The Office of the President of the United States cannot be compelled to action by a citizen petition.


Who said anything about compulsion?
 
2012-08-08 02:24:44 PM  
Is there some reason the President needs a petition to have him do this?

Methinks some folks don't understand what "chief executive" means... he can make the TSA do this review at ANY time. If he hasn't yet, it's because he has chosen not to. I really doubt the President is unaware that people are generally unhappy about the TSA's activities, he just doesn't consider that unhappiness significant enough to impose change upon the agency.

A petition won't change that.
 
2012-08-08 02:24:45 PM  

Boxingoutsider: 4th amendment doesn't apply IMO as its a voluntary activi


So is going outside your house.
 
2012-08-08 02:25:37 PM  
Already signed it....
 
2012-08-08 02:26:51 PM  

aseras: Boxingoutsider: This is a stupid idea. Planes are incredibly high value targets for terrorists and this is a great way to intimidate them. You don't like it, don't fly. Drive, walk, swim, whatever. 4th amendment doesn't apply IMO as its a voluntary activity that has been attacked many times over the last 40 years.

Dumbfarks like you are the reason the 4th amendment is dying. Because you let them take it away. Terrorists don't give a shiat about laws. Governments are the biggest terrorists there are, and always have been. By your logic virtually every daily activity is voluntary. They can take it away too and they are working damn hard to be able to do so.


OMFG just pick one instead of biatching about everything chicken little:

1) Scanners
2) Intrusive pat downs that slow down lines and drive costs up
3) Nothing - which means terrorists will be able to easily get knifes and bombs on the plane with you and your kids (a side benefit is that this is the cheapest option per ticket)

Don't be such a goddamn baby, demanding a magic bullet when none exists.
 
2012-08-08 02:27:47 PM  
Ok, I still haven't read the entire thread, but maybe I need a refresher. I've read the article, I've read the Boobies.

What exactly are we protesting here?


I don't mind a review of bidding process, I know something about that...

But this:

we petition the obama administration to:
Require the Transportation Security Administration to Follow the Law!

In July 2011, a federal appeals court ruled that the Transportation Security Administration had to conduct a notice-and-comment rulemaking on its policy of using "Advanced Imaging Technology" for primary screening at airports. TSA was supposed to publish the policy in the Federal Register, take comments from the public, and justify its policy based on public input. The court told TSA to do all this "promptly." A year later, TSA has not even started that public process. Defying the court, the TSA has not satisfied public concerns about privacy, about costs and delays, security weaknesses, and the potential health effects of these machines. If the government is going to "body-scan" Americans at U.S. airports, President Obama should force the TSA to begin the public process the court ordered.


You may want to refine your message a bit. Here's what you're petitioning:

"TSA was supposed to publish the policy in the Federal Register, take comments from the public, and justify its policy based on public input. The court told TSA to do all this "promptly." A year later, TSA has not even started that public process. Defying the court, the TSA has not satisfied public concerns about privacy, about costs and delays, security weaknesses, and the potential health effects of these machines."

Name specifics. I see no references to where TSA promised anything, I see no reference to the court case, I see no reference to anything but what you're telling us with bad grammar. You're just the guy on the bus going "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" and you're much less likely to cause armageddon at the moment..
 
2012-08-08 02:27:53 PM  
I don't know where I sit on this issue. I don't have a huge problem with these scanners but I figure this petition may get us on the way of better studies, particularly with the cancer element.
 
2012-08-08 02:27:59 PM  
God forbid some TSA employee will see your tinny dick below your overweight diabetic physique.
 
2012-08-08 02:28:06 PM  

gunga galunga: Absolutely. Anything I can do get to shine a spotlight on the TSA's shenanigans.

** clicks link **

Wait, you mean I have to create an account? Awwww, man.


All you have to do is give an email address - they're trying to prevent spam bots.
 
2012-08-08 02:28:30 PM  
yeah! totalfarkers will get things changed!

*yawn
 
2012-08-08 02:28:46 PM  

redmond24: I don't know where I sit on this issue. I don't have a huge problem with these scanners but I figure this petition may get us on the way of better studies, particularly with the cancer element.


People who don't have problems with the scanners should still have problems with federal agencies ignoring court orders.
 
2012-08-08 02:29:10 PM  

akula: Is there some reason the President needs a petition to have him do this?

Methinks some folks don't understand what "chief executive" means... he can make the TSA do this review at ANY time. If he hasn't yet, it's because he has chosen not to. I really doubt the President is unaware that people are generally unhappy about the TSA's activities, he just doesn't consider that unhappiness significant enough to impose change upon the agency.

A petition won't change that.


Yup, he sure can. This is just a way of saying that this is something important that 25,000 people think he should prioritize.
 
2012-08-08 02:29:40 PM  
Do you seriously think anyone in government doesn't know how disgusted and angry people are by the TSA?

They're not going to do a thing about this even if you get 10x that amount by tomorrow. The TSA has been in violation of at least one court order for months now.

The first step would be to require every single solitary member of congress to pass through the TSA pat downs 100% of the time when they fly. If they're going to impose this on us then it's only fitting they get to experience it for themselves. That's never going to happen so...

The second step is to get even 1/50th of the OWS and Tea Party movements to start raising complete non-violent hell anytime the TSA gets near them. The line hold ups and disruption of general airport operation would create massive backlash. I figure about a week of having TSA supervisors and other officials having to walk all over airports should do the trick.
 
2012-08-08 02:30:06 PM  

wineskigolf: I have yet to see a credible study as to the cancer risk. I'm open to reading one if it exists.



Exposing yourself to radiation sources (especially X-Rays) is a cancer risk. The question is one of degrees, how much your risk increases depends on how much radiation you were exposed to. In the case of the TSA, the Rapiscan systems need to be regularly calibrated, otherwise the dosage levels can reach or exceed those used for chest X-Rays (which should not only be limited per annum but when performed take place behind shielding). Given the poor pay and training of TSA agents who (are no where near the level of quality, expertise, or pay of medical technicians who normally operated such machines), most recently, didn't realize the scanner was turned off the risk is extremely real.
 
2012-08-08 02:30:25 PM  

wineskigolf: The My Little Pony Killer: wineskigolf: You have a choice to fly.

I dare you to say that to the face of someone who travels for a living.

I travel for a living, so does my wife.


Okay, so say it to somebody that isn't yourself or your wife. I guarantee that not everybody who does is so willing and happy to take such poor treatment.
 
2012-08-08 02:30:47 PM  
I've signed one of these in the past that did get the required amount of signatures, and the White House did issue an official response. Want to know how they responded? "We can't comment on this issue at this time."

/waste of time
 
2012-08-08 02:31:53 PM  
Done.

/F the TSA.
 
2012-08-08 02:33:25 PM  

peterquince: Aside from the fact that the scanners cause cancer


[Citation needed]

and they probably violate the 4th amendment

This is clearly not true.

AND they have cost us $2.4 billion

I don't like this either.

they have never even once uncovered a bomb.

Is that because they don't work, or because people don't wear bombs and get scanned? Have they uncovered guns? Knives? A bomb isn't the only thing to worry about on a plane--the 9/11 folks didn't have a single bomb, either.

This is pure pork money.

At that level, almost all money is.
 
2012-08-08 02:33:38 PM  

wineskigolf: I have yet to see a credible study as to the cancer risk. I'm open to reading one if it exists.


The fact that there hasn't been a study doesn't mean that they're okay to aim at my junk.

Also, petition signed. Follow the court order, a-holes!
 
2012-08-08 02:34:08 PM  

spiderpaz: Don't be such a goddamn baby, demanding a magic bullet when none exists.


Same to you.
 
2012-08-08 02:34:59 PM  
Signed. I effing hate what the TSA has done since 9/11. Pure security theater.
 
2012-08-08 02:35:26 PM  

gunga galunga: Absolutely. Anything I can do get to shine a spotlight on the TSA's shenanigans.

** clicks link **

Wait, you mean I have to create an account? Awwww, man.


I've had an account there for over a year now, and unlike a lot of other petition sites this one actually leaves you the fark alone after you sign.
 
2012-08-08 02:35:51 PM  

cannotsuggestaname: wineskigolf is the reason we can't have nice things in this country.


on several levels...
 
2012-08-08 02:36:09 PM  
I fly all the time for work, there is absolutely no reasonable alternative for me (and many, many others), and the scanners don't bother me in the slightest. They seem to speed things up a bit in the airports where they're used.

Also, leaning on a little bit of credibility as a cancer survivor, take your cancer alarmism about these things and shove it directly up your ass. It's not credible and it's not proportional. If you want to ban scanners for cancer risk you'd have to ban air travel entirely. Not to mention cell phones, WiFi, and probably chocolate cake.
 
2012-08-08 02:36:33 PM  

fred_chan: I've signed one of these in the past that did get the required amount of signatures, and the White House did issue an official response. Want to know how they responded? "We can't comment on this issue at this time."

/waste of time


Oh no, you didn't get an immediate response. Better give up forever.
 
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