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(White House)   TFer's friend's petition to force TSA to review "full body imaging" at airports has more than 20000 signatures; will go in front of Obama if it gets 4600 more. Difficulty: By tomorrow. DIT   (petitions.whitehouse.gov) divider line 290
    More: Spiffy, TSA, White House, rulemaking process, United States courts of appeals  
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8526 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Aug 2012 at 1:52 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-08 11:54:18 AM  
Here's the deal. A federal court told the TSA (airport security) that they had to "promptly" review the use of the "rapiscan" bodyscans in airports. They use them on everyone going through O'Hare. Aside from the fact that the scanners cause cancer, and they probably violate the 4th amendment, AND they have cost us $2.4 billion, they have never even once uncovered a bomb. This is pure pork money.

Oh, and former Homeland Security officials have made a butt-load on the sale of these things ($170,000 each) after they left the Bush Administration. [Citation]

So of course, it's been a year and no action at all. This petition is asking the administration to force TSA to comply.

Here's the deal, this petition thing needs 25,000 signatures to get in front of Obama. By tomorrow. It's getting pretty close, but please consider signing this to push it over the edge. Yes, you have to confirm an email address, but I've never gotten any spam from them.
 
2012-08-08 11:54:42 AM  
What's wrong with the scanning? I go through it at least 4 times a week. It's no big deal.
 
2012-08-08 11:57:09 AM  
Signing this and passing it along.

/haven't flown in years
//will continue not flying as long as the TSA exists
 
2012-08-08 11:57:26 AM  
They cause cancer, they probably violate the 4th amendment, they have cost us $2.4 billion, AND they have never even once uncovered a bomb. This is pure pork money. Not to mention the questionable lobbying.

And they let the government see your wiener.

/quoting cuz you probably posted before seeing my first.
 
2012-08-08 12:06:50 PM  
I have yet to see a credible study as to the cancer risk. I'm open to reading one if it exists.

Since flying is optional, the 4th amendment probably does not apply. I believe that it's already been appealed and turned down.

As for the bombs. i think the word i deterrent.

Both my wife and I spend more time on airplanes than we do at home so this interests me......
 
2012-08-08 12:06:54 PM  
I wouldn't mind reviewing some of those full body scans.
 
2012-08-08 12:06:54 PM  
Signed and facebooked.
 
2012-08-08 12:07:29 PM  

wineskigolf: Since flying is optional, the 4th amendment probably does not apply


Driving is optional. The 4th amendment still applies there.
 
2012-08-08 12:09:24 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: wineskigolf: Since flying is optional, the 4th amendment probably does not apply

Driving is optional. The 4th amendment still applies there.


This. And the people who have been staging naked protests lately have had their right to do so upheld by judges citing the 4th amendment.
 
2012-08-08 12:10:53 PM  

peterquince: They cause cancer


Flying "causes" cancer. The risk is small in comparison.
 
2012-08-08 12:12:01 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: wineskigolf: Since flying is optional, the 4th amendment probably does not apply

Driving is optional. The 4th amendment still applies there.


Implied consent
 
2012-08-08 12:13:00 PM  
A whitehouse.gov account is required to sign Petitions.
 
2012-08-08 12:13:59 PM  

wineskigolf: cameroncrazy1984: wineskigolf: Since flying is optional, the 4th amendment probably does not apply

Driving is optional. The 4th amendment still applies there.

Implied consent


That doesn't apply to search and seizure. Oh my god, you let a cop search your car every time you get stopped, don't you? You know you don't have to do that, right?
 
2012-08-08 12:14:34 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: A whitehouse.gov account is required to sign Petitions.


All you need is an email address; it doesn't ask for any other info afaik.
 
2012-08-08 12:18:55 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: wineskigolf: cameroncrazy1984: wineskigolf: Since flying is optional, the 4th amendment probably does not apply

Driving is optional. The 4th amendment still applies there.

Implied consent

That doesn't apply to search and seizure. Oh my god, you let a cop search your car every time you get stopped, don't you? You know you don't have to do that, right?


cameroncrazy1984: wineskigolf: cameroncrazy1984: wineskigolf: Since flying is optional, the 4th amendment probably does not apply

Driving is optional. The 4th amendment still applies there.

Implied consent

That doesn't apply to search and seizure. Oh my god, you let a cop search your car every time you get stopped, don't you? You know you don't have to do that, right?


It does. A condition of your drivers license allows them to test your blood, breath or urine. If you refuse you lose your license. If you refuse to be searched you don't fly.

To answer your question/statement. No, not unless they have a warrant.
 
2012-08-08 12:40:13 PM  
While some of your premises are highly questionable, Submitter, I can't argue that these rape-scan things are nothing more than an expensive set-piece in security theater.

Signed, and passing it on.
 
2012-08-08 12:40:51 PM  

wineskigolf: It does. A condition of your drivers license allows them to test your blood, breath or urine. If you refuse you lose your license. If you refuse to be searched you don't fly.

To answer your question/statement. No, not unless they have a warrant.


Wow. That is an impressive level of cognitive dissonance there.
 
2012-08-08 12:43:48 PM  

wineskigolf: A condition of your drivers license allows them to test your blood, breath or urine


You might want to check up on that. In Texas they have "no refusal" weekends (usually holidays and the like) where if you refuse to be tested a judge will sign a search warrant and then you WILL be tested. Now if you do refuse and are not subject to a warrant, you can lose your license for a period of time but you cannot be prosecuted for DWI due to lack of evidence.
 
2012-08-08 12:45:50 PM  
I like refusing and making them go through the process of frisking me.
 
2012-08-08 12:46:11 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: wineskigolf: A condition of your drivers license allows them to test your blood, breath or urine

You might want to check up on that. In Texas they have "no refusal" weekends (usually holidays and the like) where if you refuse to be tested a judge will sign a search warrant and then you WILL be tested. Now if you do refuse and are not subject to a warrant, you can lose your license for a period of time but you cannot be prosecuted for DWI due to lack of evidence.


Yeah, I think it depends on the state. In NY, if you refuse you're automatically arrested. It's a stupid law and likely unconstitutional, but nobody will ever repeal it because of MADD.
 
2012-08-08 01:14:00 PM  
wineskigolf is the reason we can't have nice things in this country.
 
2012-08-08 01:21:35 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: wineskigolf: It does. A condition of your drivers license allows them to test your blood, breath or urine. If you refuse you lose your license. If you refuse to be searched you don't fly.

To answer your question/statement. No, not unless they have a warrant.

Wow. That is an impressive level of cognitive dissonance there.


Not at all.

When you get your license you sign an "implied Consent" agreement allowing them to test you (most states).

There is no implied consent in regard to a car search..

You have a choice to fly. Choosing to fly and enter an airport is implied consent to search. ""implied consent," which means that you cannot refuse to be searched; your consent is implied when you purchased your ticket."
 
2012-08-08 01:24:09 PM  

cannotsuggestaname: wineskigolf is the reason we can't have nice things in this country.

 
2012-08-08 01:24:47 PM  

wineskigolf: You have a choice to fly.


I dare you to say that to the face of someone who travels for a living.
 
2012-08-08 01:26:09 PM  

Aarontology: I like refusing and making them go through the process of frisking me.


This. And I usually have a couple farts stacked up for the occasion.
 
2012-08-08 01:31:30 PM  

wineskigolf: Since flying is optional


i.imgur.com

That settles it. You can't be Val Kilmer's wingman anymore.
 
2012-08-08 01:36:59 PM  

wineskigolf: If you refuse to be searched you don't fly.


i.imgur.com

I've decided to become a commercial airline pilot who refuses to ever be searched. I can't believe I didn't think of this before. Just sit back and let the Benji's roll in. Its not like I need to be searched to do my job or anything anyway.
 
2012-08-08 01:56:19 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: wineskigolf: You have a choice to fly.

I dare you to say that to the face of someone who travels for a living.


I travel for a living, so does my wife.
 
2012-08-08 01:56:38 PM  
Meh. Last time I heard, Obama isn't concerned with privacy.

Except his own.
 
2012-08-08 01:57:06 PM  
Just out of curiosity (because I dont fly anymore). Do other countries force people to submit to this? I dont fly because I am scared shiatless of it, but if I did I think this would really piss me off.
 
2012-08-08 01:57:19 PM  

wineskigolf: I have yet to see a credible study as to the cancer risk.


This is exactly why I don't use the machines.
 
2012-08-08 01:59:23 PM  
So we want pat downs instead?

I think someone didn't think their cunning plan through.
 
2012-08-08 01:59:53 PM  

wineskigolf: A condition of your drivers license allows them to test your blood, breath or urine.


This is entirely false. Cops have to have a reason (swerving, you smell of alcohol, you appear disoriented, etc.) to pull you over and demand you submit to the testing, they can't just stop you for no reason and make you piss in a cup or stab you with a needle.
 
2012-08-08 02:00:15 PM  

Sapper_Topo: Just out of curiosity (because I dont fly anymore). Do other countries force people to submit to this? I dont fly because I am scared shiatless of it, but if I did I think this would really piss me off.


If you're flying into the US, they body scan you. It's happened to me twice flying back home from Canada.
 
2012-08-08 02:00:21 PM  

wineskigolf: I have yet to see a credible study as to the cancer risk. I'm open to reading one if it exists.

Since flying is optional, the 4th amendment probably does not apply. I believe that it's already been appealed and turned down..


It is "forced consent" by a government agency therefore your 4th amendment protections could be violated. Now, I am not sure, but I would hazard a guess that there is reams of case law stating that the TSA security guidelines are not unreasonable.
 
2012-08-08 02:00:24 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Signing this and passing it along.

/haven't flown in years
//will continue not flying as long as the TSA exists


Well you can go through the about 6 airports that don't have TSA but you still have to follow the same exact procedures. So I don't understand what you think one has to do with the other.
 
2012-08-08 02:00:52 PM  

peterquince: And they let the government see your wiener.


I tuck it back when I go through. It makes me laugh.
 
2012-08-08 02:01:55 PM  

Sapper_Topo: Just out of curiosity (because I dont fly anymore). Do other countries force people to submit to this? I dont fly because I am scared shiatless of it, but if I did I think this would really piss me off.


Yup, I've been through many of them when flying around Canada. So far I've gotten my rapescan passport stamped at Halifax, Toronto, and Vancouver.
 
2012-08-08 02:02:28 PM  
Wait, subby thinks that petitions have the ability to apply legitimate force onto bureaucrats?

This is why we can't have nice things!
 
2012-08-08 02:03:13 PM  

HAMMERTOE: Meh. Last time I heard, Obama isn't concerned with privacy.

Except his own.



Excactly, that's why he's released his tax returns but is refusing to release the diary he wrote when he was 3. Thank god we are not supposed to pry into the life of white superrich guys.

Yeah, troll snax
 
2012-08-08 02:03:50 PM  

wineskigolf: I have yet to see a credible study as to the cancer risk. I'm open to reading one if it exists.

Since flying is optional, the 4th amendment probably does not apply. I believe that it's already been appealed and turned down.

As for the bombs. i think the word i deterrent.

Both my wife and I spend more time on airplanes than we do at home so this interests me......


If I wanted to hijack a plane, I could do it naked. The only "deterrent" is to people who believe that somehow 9/11 would not have happened if only the hijackers had not had their little knives. Just so you and your wife feel better, it wasn't the boxcutters that allowed 9/11 to happen, it was the regulations then in place which required pilots and flight crews to obey hijackers' demands and not fight back. Those policies have now changed. But if someone wanted to get a bomb onto a plane, which seems to be your fear, they would simply find another way. I can think of several offhand, but I don't post suggestions like that on line. But it is entirely possible.
 
2012-08-08 02:03:51 PM  

peterquince: Here's the deal. A federal court told the TSA (airport security) that they had to "promptly" review the use of the "rapiscan" bodyscans in airports. They use them on everyone going through O'Hare. Aside from the fact that the scanners cause cancer, and they probably violate the 4th amendment, AND they have cost us $2.4 billion, they have never even once uncovered a bomb. This is pure pork money.

Oh, and former Homeland Security officials have made a butt-load on the sale of these things ($170,000 each) after they left the Bush Administration. [Citation]

So of course, it's been a year and no action at all. This petition is asking the administration to force TSA to comply.

Here's the deal, this petition thing needs 25,000 signatures to get in front of Obama. By tomorrow. It's getting pretty close, but please consider signing this to push it over the edge. Yes, you have to confirm an email address, but I've never gotten any spam from them.


I've already signed this. I'd sign again, but I don't feel like creating a fake identity. I hope it gets the signatures we need though!
 
2012-08-08 02:04:16 PM  
I don't give a rats ass about the modesty issue or radiation fears, but I am pissed as hell that the damn things are _slow_ compared to a good old metal detector. Both in the time for the scan and the added time from having to empty pockets of absolutely everything, not just metal. I'll sign if only in hopes of getting back to slightly less cumbersome security theater.
 
2012-08-08 02:04:31 PM  

Sapper_Topo: Just out of curiosity (because I dont fly anymore). Do other countries force people to submit to this? I dont fly because I am scared shiatless of it, but if I did I think this would really piss me off.


They are relatively rare and the countries that have them started using them within the last five to ten years. Some countries that use them are compulsory, some are not. They're fairly expensive which is probably why only a few developed countries use them at all.

AFAIK, they're not compulsory in the U.S., but if you refuse you have to get fingered and felt up instead. So pick your poison. You can get your balls fingered by some kid who answered an ad on the inside of a pizza box or you can walk through a machine that shoots you with radiation and has little study surrounding its health effects.

Or you can drive, I guess...
 
2012-08-08 02:04:46 PM  

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Now, I am not sure, but I would hazard a guess that there is reams of case law stating that the TSA security guidelines are not unreasonable.


I doubt it, since they haven't been around very long. Probably reams upon reams of case law that could be considered applicable, but I haven't heard of too much directly regarding the TSA.
 
2012-08-08 02:05:23 PM  

wineskigolf: cameroncrazy1984: wineskigolf: Since flying is optional, the 4th amendment probably does not apply

Driving is optional. The 4th amendment still applies there.

Implied consent


Implied consent still requires probable cause. Atleast here in Virginia, you are already under arrest before implied consent is an issue.
 
2012-08-08 02:05:29 PM  

FTGodWin: Wait, subby thinks that petitions have the ability to apply legitimate force onto bureaucrats?

This is why we can't have nice things!



legitimate .....
rjw57.github.com
 
2012-08-08 02:07:30 PM  
All of you: the point of the petition isn't the scanners or their effectiveness. The point of the petition is to get the TSA to comply with a federal court order. I imagine most of us would be on board with government agencies complying with court orders.
 
2012-08-08 02:08:15 PM  

Aarontology: I like refusing and making them go through the process of frisking me.


Up to about seven patdowns myself. If they wanna make me uncomfortable, it's going to be mutual.
 
2012-08-08 02:08:55 PM  

wineskigolf: cameroncrazy1984: wineskigolf: It does. A condition of your drivers license allows them to test your blood, breath or urine. If you refuse you lose your license. If you refuse to be searched you don't fly.

To answer your question/statement. No, not unless they have a warrant.

Wow. That is an impressive level of cognitive dissonance there.

Not at all.

When you get your license you sign an "implied Consent" agreement allowing them to test you (most states).

There is no implied consent in regard to a car search..

You have a choice to fly. Choosing to fly and enter an airport is implied consent to search. ""implied consent," which means that you cannot refuse to be searched; your consent is implied when you purchased your ticket."


How about no? Blood and DNA are covered under unreasonable search and seizure and they must either have a warrant authorizing them to TAKE these things, or you must give them willingly.

Because religious nuts, and it being a major violation of personal privacy etc. driving does not void this magically.

I believe they can breathe test you just fine though, for no reason other than 'suspicious behavior'.

Good luck on the petition. I don't believe it's possible to change TSA since so many powerful and rich people make so much money from it, like most other things in this country.
 
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