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(io9)   Grey parrots shown to have the reasoning skills of toddlers   (io9.com) divider line 59
    More: Interesting, parrots, African Grey, inferences, reasoning skills  
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1757 clicks; posted to Geek » on 08 Aug 2012 at 1:37 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-08 01:39:07 PM
That's not saying much. Toddlers are like Terminators. They can't be reasoned with.
 
2012-08-08 01:45:17 PM
I love debating with my toddler. I sense the wheels turning, but like bluecrab said, her determination is unwavering.
 
2012-08-08 01:48:27 PM
My Grey has a vocab of about 65 words and uses half appropriately. When I say appropriately, I mean he uses them in specific context. This doesn't indicate meaning.

For example, he says 'Good morning' when uncovered. However, when he's being covered if he doesn't want to go to sleep, he says good morning insistently. So he associates it with being uncovered. He doesn't know what the words mean.

He also has his own words for a few things. He doesn't ask for water directly, but if he wants water (or he's out and needs a refill...because he's bathed in it) he makes the sound of water running.

His favorite word which he knows the meaning of, is like any small child. "NO". He speaks in my voice normally, and in my ex's voice (male) when saying 'No' or being aggressive. He's currently living with my ex (who takes very good care of him).

They do NOT make good or easy pets though, and I sincerely hope that articles like this don't spur ownership with someone who wants a 'smart' pet...and instead gets a screaming, noisy, messy demanding bird. I love my Grey, but they are NOT for everyone. I wasn't even able to take him with me when I moved to Northern CA because of the noise. You really should have them in a house with a sound buffer and not an apartment.

I've also known three year old humans, and while my parrot is awesome and intelligent (and my two caiques are also scarily smart) ... there's just no comparison overall. They're smart *birds*, and they think and act very differently from humans. And quite frankly, it's also impossible to determine how much of a Clever Hans effect is going on. They're absolutely smart enough to do that. :)
 
2012-08-08 01:51:45 PM
Or the average Tea Party member, amirite?
 
2012-08-08 01:57:50 PM

bluecrabscribe: That's not saying much. Toddlers are like Terminators. They can't be reasoned with.


heh true, a book my wife read describes dealing with them like dealing with a caveman. it's fairly straightforward to convince my 2.5 year old that what I want him to do is the same thing as what he wants to do but, man, when the signals get crossed and he feels no longer in control all hell breaks loose.
 
2012-08-08 01:58:28 PM
I wasnt aware this was new info. I once witnessed an ornithologist tell a group of people "The african grey reaches about the intelligence of a 2-3 year old. And they live for about the length of a human life span. SO before you go and get a bird because you think its cute, seriously consider if you want to take care of a 3 year old for the rest of your life." I think a few adults in that audience physically shrank when they realized what she was saying.

anectodal: My 2 year old daughter was walking around with a mitten full of matchbox cars on her hand yesterday hitting things. My wife said to her "I dont think they usually allow that in boxing." She threw the glove on the floor and said "I dont want to Box anymore." Toddler logic can be pretty fun.
 
2012-08-08 02:00:25 PM
Grey parrots shown to have the reasoning skills of toddlers
Toddlers shown to have bird brains.
 
2012-08-08 02:00:40 PM
Had a crow back in high school that knew the family by name and would call for water when his bowl ran empty.
 
2012-08-08 02:04:41 PM
I had a dream once that my ex's Grey was a serial killer and I was the only one he would show his real personality to. He talked to everyone else like a normal parrot but when I was alone in a room with him he talked like a brilliant upper class Englishman, and he was like a Bond villian telling me all of his plots and how I was powerless to stop him.
 
2012-08-08 02:05:46 PM
And grown men in corporate desk jobs have the reasoning skills of a parrot.
Ergo, replace them with toddlers and PROFIT!
 
2012-08-08 02:07:27 PM
Norwegian blue parrots shown to have beautiful plumage
 
2012-08-08 02:11:20 PM

bluecrabscribe: Toddlers are like Terminators. They can't be reasoned with.


Politics tab something something
 
2012-08-08 02:11:33 PM
Not surprised at all -- and yeah, this is new news?

At times, I think my budgie is reasonably close to that level. She certainly seems to understand that she did something bad on the occasions she bites me. I get this "Screw you, human!" squawk and then she plays keepaway for about 30 seconds before going back to normal so I can't put her back in her cage so she can calm down. Other times I tell her she is doing something dumb like trying to destroy something indestructible, and I get that same squawk before she goes off to do something else. If she starts freaking out demanding attention or to be let out of the cage, I can walk out of the room and stand in the hall and she stops, making this little "Hello?" chirp after about 10 seconds, and then I know I come back in and she won't do it again. There's at least some reasoning within that little feathered noggin of hers. Almost makes up for when she sits on the bottom of the cage talking to her reflection in a piece of clear plastic, too.

However, she isn't much in the vocab department. She pretty much only says "bird" and "pretty birdie," and makes a variety of squeaks and whistles, including the squeaks my desk chair makes when I tilt it back. I've tried to train her in the past, but she's not food-motivated at all -- she's definitely an attention-seeker who doesn't enjoy cooperating when she doesn't feel like it.

/She might just be a flying cat.
 
2012-08-08 02:12:41 PM

Lady Indica: My Grey has a vocab of about 65 words and uses half appropriately. When I say appropriately, I mean he uses them in specific context. This doesn't indicate meaning.

For example, he says 'Good morning' when uncovered. However, when he's being covered if he doesn't want to go to sleep, he says good morning insistently. So he associates it with being uncovered. He doesn't know what the words mean.


Actually, I'd say that your parrot knows exactly what "good morning" means. It means "awake" rather than "good morning". Offhand I'd say the problem with your theory that your parrot doesn't understand the meaning of "good morning" is because he doesn't understand it like you do. You have a broader frame of reference, and probably use the phrase in more instances than simply greeting the servants that uncover you in the morning and cover you at night.

Maybe you're aware of this, but there was an American philosopher by the name of W.V.O. Quine who, if I recall correctly, held the position that meaning was fixed by reference to states of the world, and its context. The context was the tricky part. Imagine going to a village in the middle of nowhere and seeing a rabbit dart out of the bush. A local waves towards the rabbit and utters the word "duck". To what is that local referring? You may misunderstand his reference, or he may be stupid enough to mistake a rabbit for a duck, but you can't really say that he doesn't understand what the word means just because he doesn't mean the same thing as you when you say: "Duck."
 
2012-08-08 02:13:48 PM
Mentioning grey parrot intelligence and not Alex and Irene Pepperberg?
 
2012-08-08 02:16:27 PM
I taught my wife's Grey to say REDRUM over and over and over.
 
2012-08-08 02:35:50 PM

Lady Indica: For example, he says 'Good morning' when uncovered. However, when he's being covered if he doesn't want to go to sleep, he says good morning insistently. So he associates it with being uncovered. He doesn't know what the words mean.


That's still rather remarkable. He misinterpreted what "good morning" means, but he's still assigned a meaning to it consistent with his intentions. It's not true speech, but it's still very impressive. I've only owned one animal (a very smart dog) that could make that kind of connection.

Greys are amazing birds.
 
2012-08-08 02:37:18 PM
***Grey parrots shown to have the reasoning skills of toddlers...your ex-girlfriend
 
2012-08-08 02:47:07 PM
Conversely, toddlers shown to have the reasoning skills of Grey parrots.
 
2012-08-08 02:49:49 PM
Grey Parrot for VP
 
2012-08-08 02:55:44 PM

Nurglitch: there was an American philosopher by the name of W.V.O. Quine who, if I recall correctly, held the position that meaning was fixed by reference to states of the world, and its context. The context was the tricky part. Imagine going to a village in the middle of nowhere and seeing a rabbit dart out of the bush. A local waves towards the rabbit and utters the word "duck". To what is that local referring?


This is precisely why translation can't be automated. You can run a document through a translation program and get something that looks like it makes sense, but that's just playing with fire. Without context, only the driest texts written with the explicit purpose of being easy to translate by a bilingual writer (the only people who understand all possible interpretations sans context) with the vigilance of a computer programmer can be perfectly translated by a machine. But in that case, why not just have the guy write in two languages?

And that's communication between two humans. Hell, I see two people who speak the same language fail to communicate all the time. When you're communicating with an animal, you really have to figure out what the animal is trying to say. One of my cats is wicked smart and there's definitely some crude cognitive function going on in his head, but about all he can do if I don't guess his intentions is meow with disapproval. He only has so many ways to communicate, and I'd rather he didn't go the "I will destroy all that is dear to you" route.
 
2012-08-08 03:08:31 PM
www.kenmist.com

This one even did departure briefings at Oshkosh AirVenture 2012.
 
2012-08-08 03:11:10 PM
Makes them smarter than any farker who posts in the politics tab.
 
2012-08-08 03:50:15 PM
So this will turn into a thread about how I shouldn't fly with my parrot... Great!
 
2012-08-08 04:10:12 PM
Yeah, at least in terms of their inability to escape small cages.
 
2012-08-08 04:23:43 PM

Lady Indica: I love my Grey, but they are NOT for everyone.


I VERY much want a sun conure... but I realize just how much work they are (and with such long lives - yikes!). I have 2 dogs and a cat I can barely keep up with. But I hear parrots are even more demanding.
 
2012-08-08 04:27:21 PM

Lady Indica: ... if he wants water (or he's out and needs a refill... because he's bathed in it) he makes the sound of water running.


For some reason I am finding that waaaay funnier than I should.
 
2012-08-08 05:02:12 PM

Lollipop165: Lady Indica: I love my Grey, but they are NOT for everyone.

I VERY much want a sun conure... but I realize just how much work they are (and with such long lives - yikes!). I have 2 dogs and a cat I can barely keep up with. But I hear parrots are even more demanding.


I have a nearly 20 year old Conure. He has mellowed with age. I grew up with a African Grey. She is now in her 40's. It was tough finding a good home for her after my mother died.That bird will probably outlive me.

As far as the intelligence, the article hit the nail on the head. It is not comparable to human intelligence. They are highly intelligent in a way that is not mammalian intelligence, and people tend to get their language use entirely wrong. They are learning to communicate what they want in human language because you seem kind of smart to them, not the other way around.
 
2012-08-08 05:09:14 PM

PsyLord: Or the average Tea Party member, amirite?


Yeah, about that, I thought the headline said Grey Patriots.
 
2012-08-08 05:19:03 PM

Harry_Seldon: They are learning to communicate what they want in human language because you seem kind of smart to them, not the other way around.


Overheard between two African Greys:

"These hoo-mans seem intelligent, I think they might have the reasoning powers of six-month hatchlings."

"I dunno, man, they can't fly, they don't flock, and their incessant gabbling is soooo annoying."
 
2012-08-08 05:19:25 PM

Lollipop165: Lady Indica: I love my Grey, but they are NOT for everyone.

I VERY much want a sun conure... but I realize just how much work they are (and with such long lives - yikes!). I have 2 dogs and a cat I can barely keep up with. But I hear parrots are even more demanding.


Sun conures are a very poor choice for most people. They're not the most social of parrots (there are exceptions, but on average they are not; they do better with another conure which generally makes them less human social) but most importantly THEY ARE VERY VERY LOUD. That is the main problem with sun conures.

Cockatoos are very 'cuddly' parrots (on average) but also are unbelievably, deafeningly LOUD.

There's no such thing as a quiet parrot. But Cockatoos are louder than average, and more demanding than a three year old. Seriously. They require almost constant social interaction, or can suffer serious psychosis and health problems.

Messy as hell too.
 
2012-08-08 05:27:57 PM

Wogus: Lady Indica: ... if he wants water (or he's out and needs a refill... because he's bathed in it) he makes the sound of water running.

For some reason I am finding that waaaay funnier than I should.


PLEASE take all this with a grain of salt, I'm science minded but I like most people anthropomorphism is an unavoidable bias. However, my Grey has a specific sense of humor. He'd call the dogs and laugh that he could make them do things. He found symbol manipulation amusing, when he could make things happen. My caiques have a more base sense of humor, they find injuries funny, and physical comedy. They go on their backs and kick with their feet, and you can literally tickle them if they're tame enough with you. Caiques naturally laugh constantly at their own antics. They're HILARIOUS. And very smart in a more street smart way. Greys seem more like ...an old englishman.

If that makes sense. They're all horridly messy, and cleaning the cages sucks. THey're also very expensive as they require toys they destroy, and exotic vet bills are very expensive.
 
2012-08-08 05:30:07 PM
Mmm I screwed up an edit and ...yeah. I'm not that high, I swear. Just meant to point out the unavoidable anthropomorphic bias but changed the sentence because my dictionary program INSISTS 'anthropomorphic' isn't a word. /headdesk
 
2012-08-08 05:45:09 PM

alowishus: Yeah, at least in terms of their inability to escape small cages.


My maroon-bellied conure could get out of anything that did not require human levels of force to operate. Clever little door latches? She'd greet me from the top of her cage if I left her alone after she saw me use it a few times. Food dish that wasn't quite as secure as the main door? She was on it and out of it. Only reason I kept her in a cage is that she was intellectually a two year old who had found a small, sharp pair of scissors and had a particular interest in electronics and cables.

Incidentally, she sought human attention on her own schedule, but loathed other birds. When I boarded her with the breeder I bought her from, she attempted to attack the baby maroon-bellies. She had no maternal instincts. She also caused my roommate's parents' cockatiel to spend the week they left him with us cowering in the bottom of his cage - from across the living room.

/ RIP, Sassy, you dear little feathered psychopath
 
2012-08-08 06:05:12 PM

JohnAnnArbor: Mentioning grey parrot intelligence and not Alex and Irene Pepperberg?


This!

Someone is about 25 years behind the curve.
 
2012-08-08 06:08:02 PM
I owned lorikeets for over 20 years. They knew "good night" (meaning we'd turned off the light, or they WANTED us to turn out the light), they made kissy noises when having sex, they knew their names and to say "hi" and they also knew that a new person was supposed to say "what a pretty bird" when first viewing them and they would prompt the person if that wasn't said. One of my birds I got "used" (she was 12) and she immediately started teaching my other birds her name.
But LOUD...omg. And messy. I miss THEM but I don't miss cleaning up after them, scrubbing cages, changing paper constantly, having to cook their food (lorikeets don't eat seeds).
 
2012-08-08 06:34:18 PM

Lady Indica: exotic vet bills are very expensive.


I had health insurance on my Grey. For about $30/mo, he was better insured than most Americans. It also helped that his vet was one of the top 10 avian vets in the US.

Before Alex died, I was in communication with one of Dr. Pepperberg's associates on creating a computer keyboard for parrots but it never went anywhere.
 
2012-08-08 06:36:50 PM
Someone I knew had an African Grey that would make an uncanny imitation of a wine cork popping followed by a glugging sound. Your bird will rat you out.
 
2012-08-08 08:01:00 PM

Lollipop165: Lady Indica: I love my Grey, but they are NOT for everyone.
I VERY much want a sun conure... but I realize just how much work they are (and with such long lives - yikes!). I have 2 dogs and a cat I can barely keep up with. But I hear parrots are even more demanding.


No doubt. Most parrots are commitments. I had a cockatiel that lived to 21 (above average, I know). 2 years ago I got 2 Macaws that I will most likely outlive me. I have to put them in my will. But, there is still a lot of joy there. They are best when they have room. I have all my birds in one room that can be shut off from the rest of the house. They still love their cages, but only for eating and sleeping.
 
2012-08-08 08:13:20 PM

Lady Indica: My Grey has a vocab of about 65 words and uses half appropriately. When I say appropriately, I mean he uses them in specific context. This doesn't indicate meaning.

For example, he says 'Good morning' when uncovered. However, when he's being covered if he doesn't want to go to sleep, he says good morning insistently. So he associates it with being uncovered. He doesn't know what the words mean.

He also has his own words for a few things. He doesn't ask for water directly, but if he wants water (or he's out and needs a refill...because he's bathed in it) he makes the sound of water running.

His favorite word which he knows the meaning of, is like any small child. "NO". He speaks in my voice normally, and in my ex's voice (male) when saying 'No' or being aggressive. He's currently living with my ex (who takes very good care of him).

They do NOT make good or easy pets though, and I sincerely hope that articles like this don't spur ownership with someone who wants a 'smart' pet...and instead gets a screaming, noisy, messy demanding bird. I love my Grey, but they are NOT for everyone. I wasn't even able to take him with me when I moved to Northern CA because of the noise. You really should have them in a house with a sound buffer and not an apartment.

I've also known three year old humans, and while my parrot is awesome and intelligent (and my two caiques are also scarily smart) ... there's just no comparison overall. They're smart *birds*, and they think and act very differently from humans. And quite frankly, it's also impossible to determine how much of a Clever Hans effect is going on. They're absolutely smart enough to do that. :)


Indeed. A friend of mine has an African Grey; they are indeed fascinating animals.
 
2012-08-08 08:22:25 PM
So smarter than most political editorialists masquerading as news anchors.
 
2012-08-08 09:24:42 PM
A former co-worker of mine had two of them. She told me how they got her in trouble with Fed-Ex and other package delivery services. When they'd hear the doorbell; they'd imitate her voice perfectly and constantly exhort the delivery guy to "come in!"...or "open the door". Of course she was never home when they did this.

I would love to have a parrot or a myna bird; one of the "talky" breeds; but I researched the experience off and on for over a year and decided it would not be the best arrangement for the bird. The birds don't like being alone all day (while at work) or if I were to travel. I also have two 20lb cats (active not fat...just big) that would maybe, possibly drive it nuts.

Then I read about their diet needs, iron balancing, danger of iron poisoning with certain fruits; which has to be kept on top of. Also another issue was not cleaning the cage I expected that mess...(my cats lay dog size dumps that jam the box sweeper); was if I were to let it out of the cage it would essentially just poop wherever I think?
I could not bear to have it in the cage but would certainly let it amble around the house. Never outside though. Most large cities in the south have colonies of escaped various parrots living in trees and chattering at pedestrians.

I still love the idea of having one. I wanted one so bad and to let it listen to the Godfather movies; especially the Frank Pantangelli character. /sigh. I would have socially engaged the hell out of it if at home but when I am not....not a good environment for the bird. I just cant provide the best environment for one I think.
 
2012-08-08 09:50:50 PM
I inherited a blue-fronted Amazon from an ex roomie who abandoned it.
Parrots should not be kept in cages. They go crazy with boredom and need constant stimulus.
 
2012-08-08 10:12:09 PM

Artemus_Hackwell: Then I read about their diet needs, iron balancing, danger of iron poisoning with certain fruits; which has to be kept on top of. Also another issue was not cleaning the cage I expected that mess...(my cats lay dog size dumps that jam the box sweeper); was if I were to let it out of the cage it would essentially just poop wherever I think?
I could not bear to have it in the cage but would certainly let it amble around the house. Never outside though. Most large cities in the south have colonies of escaped various parrots living in trees and chattering at pedestrians.


I grew up with parrots. My mother was stay at home. African Grey helped teach me to talk when I was a little tyke. African Greys are extraordinarily difficult challenging companions. Their personalities vary greatly like people. They don't need to be caged. They can be trained to stay in their area when you are not home. They are not big flyers. They will pick spots to poop, and can be trained, more or less.

The big problem with CAG's (Congo African Grey's) is they can become neurotic by being kept in a cage, and not having adequate social time.

I have had a Green Cheek Conure for nearly 20 years. He is literally a handful, but they are one of the best parrots. They are relatively quiet, but still have big parrot personality. They are not big talkers, and have gravelly voices, but I think the ability for parrots to talk "human" is vastly overrated. They will communicate in a mix of their language, and your language.

The time thing is the big one. I spend huge swaths of my time hanging out with him. He is never locked up, and has learned to live in the house safely without oversight. The important part of owning a parrot is to channel their wants and behavior to achieve compromise.
 
2012-08-08 10:26:54 PM
We have had Indian Ring Necks, and absolutely love Ringo, our 13 year old. Her last companion figured out how to get the cage open and disappeared. She is loud, but she whistles to us and appreciates human touch. Just don't do it to quick, because her bite it intense. But she has never picked up on human words, although she should have the capability.
 
2012-08-08 10:30:50 PM

Harry_Seldon: It is not comparable to human intelligence. They are highly intelligent in a way that is not mammalian intelligence, and people tend to get their language use entirely wrong. They are learning to communicate what they want in human language because you seem kind of smart to them, not the other way around.


I've always wondered what that means. Can you qualify it? How does "avian intelligence" differ?

/Not snarking
 
2012-08-08 10:44:54 PM

theorellior: Harry_Seldon: It is not comparable to human intelligence. They are highly intelligent in a way that is not mammalian intelligence, and people tend to get their language use entirely wrong. They are learning to communicate what they want in human language because you seem kind of smart to them, not the other way around.

I've always wondered what that means. Can you qualify it? How does "avian intelligence" differ?

/Not snarking


For years, I have lived with a parrot who is free to largely roam the house and do as he pleases. The one thing that kept coming to my mind was, "I feel like I am living with a little green alien."

Mammals and birds diverged from a common ancestor a long time ago. I don't have an exact number, but think on the order of 300 million years ago. Their brain structure have evolved on an entirely different path with entirely different structural requirements, yet they achieve similar outcomes in many types of adaptive behavior. Birds have relatively tiny brains with an entirely different brain structure from higher order mammals. I have a bird that weighs 100 grams, but has complex thought processes and behavior comparable to a cat or dog, except with a brain a tiny fraction of the size.
 
2012-08-08 10:51:33 PM
So,does that mean if we get four parrots together we can have them write US fiscal policy?

Hey, just look at Grover Norquist.
 
2012-08-08 10:57:06 PM

Harry_Seldon: theorellior: Harry_Seldon: It is not comparable to human intelligence. They are highly intelligent in a way that is not mammalian intelligence, and people tend to get their language use entirely wrong. They are learning to communicate what they want in human language because you seem kind of smart to them, not the other way around.

I've always wondered what that means. Can you qualify it? How does "avian intelligence" differ?

/Not snarking

For years, I have lived with a parrot who is free to largely roam the house and do as he pleases. The one thing that kept coming to my mind was, "I feel like I am living with a little green alien."

Mammals and birds diverged from a common ancestor a long time ago. I don't have an exact number, but think on the order of 300 million years ago. Their brain structure have evolved on an entirely different path with entirely different structural requirements, yet they achieve similar outcomes in many types of adaptive behavior. Birds have relatively tiny brains with an entirely different brain structure from higher order mammals. I have a bird that weighs 100 grams, but has complex thought processes and behavior comparable to a cat or dog, except with a brain a tiny fraction of the size.


It's a really hard question to answer. You know how dogs are smart, but not in a people way? It's a difference like that...but much more so.

And unlike dogs and cats, they have not been domesticated for thousands of years of breeding. There's ZERO difference between a pet parrot and a wild parrot genetically. Dogs and wolves...big difference. We work well with dogs because humans who did so generally had a serious advantage, and we bred them over a LONG period of time enhancing that advantage on both sides.

It's much easier to understand a dog, as a result.

But saying that it's like living with a little alien...that's VERY accurate. And sometimes it can seriously hurt your feelings when you're buddies with a bird and they do something that hurts you physically (or emotionally by shunning you or acting like a jerk birdie) and you may have NO idea what you've done. Worst still in many ways, when you manage to offend them...and have no idea what you did that was so offensive. And it might simply be wearing a color they can't stand.
 
2012-08-09 12:00:02 AM

Harry_Seldon: For years, I have lived with a parrot who is free to largely roam the house and do as he pleases. The one thing that kept coming to my mind was, "I feel like I am living with a little green alien."


That rings a bell. I miss my grandma's cockatoo, she bought it when I was a small child and never trained it, in fact after one incident as a small child I was scared of it. Then it came to be after she passed my sister was given custody when we were still in high school. Things started making sense, it needed social interaction, and it became a member of the family in our house. It started with slow interaction at the cage, but eventually became remove the blanked and open the cage every morning, close and blanket him in the evening. That sounds simple but it was a huge accomplishment. Realize we had 4 cats when I lived there, he stood his ground, stopped becoming a noise problem when free and was just waddling his way all around the house. The cats learned not to bother him, and he would even hop up stairs when I was in my room, peek his head around the corners and look with what I can only assume meant "whats up?". Then only then if you whistled would he come in.

Damn I wish my mom didnt give him away to a coworker before I graduated and could afford him. I miss my grandma's bird.
 
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