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(Daily Kos)   Politifact says "pants on fire" doesn't mean "lied". We rate that "Pantaloons Ablaze"   (dailykos.com) divider line 219
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5170 clicks; posted to Politics » on 07 Aug 2012 at 8:27 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-07 10:25:22 PM
XXXX, XXXX, Pants on fire
Your nose is longer than a telephone wire
Two people telling all those XXXX.
Still going out with other guys.

Perhaps Politifact has a different way to fill in those blanks.
 
2012-08-07 10:29:25 PM

Hobodeluxe: Reid hasn't lied.
he said a source (a major investor with Bain) told him that. He even gave the caveat that he had no way on knowing it was true.
Dana Bash from CNN said the source confirmed it with her.


I think Bash said that someone else on Reid's staff confirmed they also knew the source. Bash doesn't know who the source is (hasn't confirmed it) unless you are referring to something other than the AC360 clip.

Reid could very well be lying or telling the truth. The source could also by lying or telling the truth. Only Romney and the IRS knows for sure.
 
2012-08-07 10:30:13 PM

The Iconoclast: The Jami Turman Fan Club: tenpoundsofcheese: The Jami Turman Fan Club: Paying very little in taxes, I could see. Zero? No, I really can't see that as a practical possibility. I'm in the camp of people who think it's more than zero, but toxic regardless.

Why is zero so hard to believe? He owned 100% of Bain, and was their CEO. Why would he pay himself a salary?He also took no salary as Gov and paid his own travel expenses.

I doubt he took a salary for the olympics.

He did take a salary for the Olympics, over a million. I'll bet he spent more than that on it though, so his income taxes would have been 0.

So, 1983, he starts Bain Capital. No reason to take a salary there since he owns it.He worked for Bain & Company in 1991 and 1992, but took only $1 salary, then he went back to Bain Capital.
In 1999-2001 he worked for the Olympics, which drew a nice salary but the expenses would have exceeded the salary.
In 2002 he sold Bain Capital, and not only did he make a ridiculous amount of money by doing it, but was guaranteed a huge income.

As far as I can see, there was no reason for Romney to pay income taxes from 1984 through 2001, which is 18 years. No tricks, no finagling the IRS. nothing. When you own the company, why would you take money out to be your salary? It's not like he needed the money, and you get better deductions by leaving it in the company. The other two jobs he had I'm very certain that he didn't pay income taxes on.

So...how is Reid's accusation impossible, or even unlikely? You could ask why anybody would care, but Romney's denying it has made this a big story. It was cleverly done by Reid.

"The Carry."


WOW! That's a clever trick. I'd never heard of it before. That would virtually guarantee that Romney had miniscule income during his Bain years, at least if you don't consider capital gains to be income.
 
2012-08-07 10:37:02 PM
CNN has backed the source's credibility. It is 100% Romney's responsibility now to prove that it isn't true, which he can very easily do.

This is a level of campaign secrecy that is unprecedented in my lifetime, and Romney doesn't deserve to set foot in Washington DC, much less inside the White House, until he offers the same level of transparency that every presidential candidate has given since Romney's own father ran for the office. Every single American, Dem, Rep, or other, should be outraged by Romney's inability to offer even the bare minimum of openness given by everyone else who seeks the White House.
 
2012-08-07 10:39:21 PM

Hobodeluxe: Reid hasn't lied.
he said a source (a major investor with Bain) told him that. He even gave the caveat that he had no way on knowing it was true.
Dana Bash from CNN said the source confirmed it with her.

The ball is in Mitt's court.
he can't demand to know the source so he can "determine if they are credible"
they either are or aren't, no matter their identity.
and all he has to do is release the returns to prove it.

and Romney has a long history of lying. Hell his entire campaign for the last month has been based on an out of context quote. and before that it was another one that was a quote Obama made of someone else and intentionally mis-attributed to him. and now it's a lie based on the Ohio voter suppression tactics to close early voting polls to everyone but service members on one of the biggest days for Dems to vote early. He's somehow twisted that into a "Obama wants to suppress military votes"
this guy is as two faced as they come in Washington and that's saying a lot.

So I'll just refer back to his own words. A claim he made against an opponent of his in Mass in 92. when her husband didn't release all of his tax returns (the candidate herself had,Mitt had not)

What are you hiding?



WTF is this guy's problem?


I heard Reid killed and raped a girl in 1990. I heard this from a reliable source who was his mutual massage partner.

/this thread reeks of hypocrisy
 
2012-08-07 10:44:37 PM

mrshowrules: I think Bash said that someone else on Reid's staff confirmed they also knew the source. Bash doesn't know who the source is (hasn't confirmed it) unless you are referring to something other than the AC360 clip.


It's been a few days since I read the transcripts, but I believe Bash has a source she's used a lot for accurate information, who then said something along the lines of "Yeah, Reid's source is legit."
 
2012-08-07 10:46:51 PM

Paul Baumer: So what the hell will all these folks do if it comes out that Reid was accurate? Now that will be an epic thread indeed.


Not as interesting as the (longshot) one of Romney's tax returns showing no wrong doing.
 
2012-08-07 10:51:27 PM

Animatronik: I heard Reid killed and raped a girl in 1990. I heard this from a reliable source who was his mutual massage partner.


I spoke to the massage partner, he claimed the rape and murder occurred on Christmas Eve, at 11:30, in a New Jersey 7/11 parking lot.

Reid claims that he was in Nevada, with his family, celebrating Christmas, and that they videotaped the party, took many pictures, and his family backs up his story. Oh, wait, except he refuses to show the videotape, won't allow anyone to see the pictures, and won't let his family talk to anyone.

Now, to some people, this appears to be a perfectly reasonable response. To everyone else, it's clearly the behavior of an incredibly stupid individual. UNLESS, he really did rape and murder the girl.

Guess how Romney's acting in this matter.
 
2012-08-07 10:54:27 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: mrshowrules: I think Bash said that someone else on Reid's staff confirmed they also knew the source. Bash doesn't know who the source is (hasn't confirmed it) unless you are referring to something other than the AC360 clip.

It's been a few days since I read the transcripts, but I believe Bash has a source she's used a lot for accurate information, who then said something along the lines of "Yeah, Reid's source is legit."



Doesn't look like it. No one in the media (including Bash) knows who the source is or even if there is one.
 
2012-08-07 10:56:16 PM

Mearen: When your only strategy is guilty until proven innocent, you're nothing but slime.


Hilarious. I feel certain there are a couple other strategies at play here. Then again, after 30 or so years of GOP campaign 'strategies' that pale in comparison, your assertion is beyond ridiculous. The GOP knows all about how to make hearsay and hyperbole work to their advantage without bothering about annoying details like 'innocent until proven guilty'. How droll. This isn't anywhere near as insidious as 'Swiftboating', where a guy who served and received a few medals for his service was destroyed.

This is an accusation that could be easily disproved with documentation, if it is, in fact, false.

The guy wants to be President? He needs to prove he's worthy. Make Daddy proud. Show twelve years worth, Mitt. Just like your Daddy did.

Prove that Senator Reid's pants are afire, Mitt.
 
2012-08-07 11:00:20 PM
I had the greatest vision of the GOP imploding, just 100% Ourobouros, like nothing we've ever seen or conceived of, when Harry Reid hosts a press conference to divulge his source, and it's McCain. Imagine McCain showing up on stage or whatever with him.

They'd lose it. There would be no return, ever. The big tent would be obliterated into multiple warring factions.
 
2012-08-07 11:02:46 PM
Our ruling stupid as it is

Reid has said Romney paid no taxes for 10 years.


static.politifact.com.s3.amazonaws.com


Reid told the website that about a month earlier, a person who had invested with Bain Capital called his office and said, "Harry, he didn't pay any taxes for 10 years."

Reid continued, " 'He didn't pay taxes for 10 years!' "
"Now, do I know that that's true? Well, I'm not certain," said Reid.

/context and syntax
 
2012-08-07 11:08:05 PM

cameroncrazy1984: cabbyman: Obama made his money from politics.

If by "politics" you mean "two books about his life before politics"


You mean the two books not one would have bought if wasn't in politics?
 
2012-08-07 11:09:46 PM

TedDalton: cameroncrazy1984: cabbyman: Obama made his money from politics.

If by "politics" you mean "two books about his life before politics"

You mean the two books not one would have bought if Obama wasn't in politics?


/damn you me
 
2012-08-07 11:10:24 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Britney Spear's Speculum: No, it's not. It's a red herring to ask someone to produce their sources when the claim is of someone else's tax returns. A concrete example of this would be demanding Reid to document when he stopped beating his wife. Same level of journalism and debate. By they way, you do know that Reid hasn't released his tax returns after he made a big deal out of it when running for Senate.

Reid can not even state that he has a credible source. How would an investor in the Bain funds know the details of Mitt's tax returns over 10 years?


If the investor in question reviewed Romney's tax documents for John McCain's campaign, and is on reasonable terms with Harry Reid.

Start digging.
 
2012-08-07 11:12:51 PM

Elandriel: They'd lose it. There would be no return, ever. The big tent would be obliterated into multiple warring factions.


Nope. That just confirms everything about McCain and the true believers can put him on the outside forever. He can go down in history hated by both sides. If it was true and it had happened, the only way it would happen is if Romney seriously looked like he was going to win. McCain may hate Romney, but why piss on him when he's on fire?
 
2012-08-07 11:16:32 PM

cabbyman: Romney made his money before politics. by raping american workers. Without lube.



Obama made his money from politics.


You pick!
 
2012-08-07 11:17:16 PM
I feel reasonably confident that Harry Reid's source said what Harry says he said. I'm a good deal less confident that what the source said is accurate or honest.

I see three major possibilities consistent with these beliefs, and at present I consider them equally credible:

1) It's just true - Romney really did have a zero tax liability over an unspecified 10-year period.
2) It's almost true - Romney's tax liability was not zero but was ridiculously low - like 2-3% of his income - and the source told Reid zero to sex it up (or maybe the source said "basically zero" and Reid sexed that up a bit).
3) It's not true - Romney paid a typical level of tax for someone of his income and career, and the source was seeking to embarrass Reid.

Note that in all three cases, Romney's got a strong motivation not to release the returns - even a typical tax rate for an investment banker is a lot lower than that paid by people who actually earn their income, and the last thing Republicans want is an honest debate over how much the rich pay in taxes. And of course, regardless of the specifics, this is why Democrats are trying so hard to embarrass Romney into doing what every other presidential candidate since his dad has done without caviling or stonewalling.
 
2012-08-07 11:20:32 PM

PlatinumDragon: tenpoundsofcheese: Britney Spear's Speculum: No, it's not. It's a red herring to ask someone to produce their sources when the claim is of someone else's tax returns. A concrete example of this would be demanding Reid to document when he stopped beating his wife. Same level of journalism and debate. By they way, you do know that Reid hasn't released his tax returns after he made a big deal out of it when running for Senate.

Reid can not even state that he has a credible source. How would an investor in the Bain funds know the details of Mitt's tax returns over 10 years?

If the investor in question reviewed Romney's tax documents for John McCain's campaign, and is on reasonable terms with Harry Reid.

Start digging.


You really don't need his tax forms to figure out that he paid no income taxes from 1984 through 1993, and probably later.
 
2012-08-07 11:20:51 PM

coeyagi: Paul Baumer: So what the hell will all these folks do if it comes out that Reid was accurate? Now that will be an epic thread indeed.

Not as interesting as the (longshot) one of Romney's tax returns showing no wrong doing.


If that were true he's have released them by now. The dog in the nighttime and all that.
 
2012-08-07 11:21:56 PM

Mithiwithi: I feel reasonably confident that Harry Reid's source said what Harry says he said. I'm a good deal less confident that what the source said is accurate or honest.

I see three major possibilities consistent with these beliefs, and at present I consider them equally credible:

1) It's just true - Romney really did have a zero tax liability over an unspecified 10-year period.
2) It's almost true - Romney's tax liability was not zero but was ridiculously low - like 2-3% of his income - and the source told Reid zero to sex it up (or maybe the source said "basically zero" and Reid sexed that up a bit).
3) It's not true - Romney paid a typical level of tax for someone of his income and career, and the source was seeking to embarrass Reid.

Note that in all three cases, Romney's got a strong motivation not to release the returns - even a typical tax rate for an investment banker is a lot lower than that paid by people who actually earn their income, and the last thing Republicans want is an honest debate over how much the rich pay in taxes. And of course, regardless of the specifics, this is why Democrats are trying so hard to embarrass Romney into doing what every other presidential candidate since his dad has done without caviling or stonewalling.


4) Romney had zero (well, close enough to 0 to not matter) income over a 10 year period, assuming capital gains are not counted as income.
 
2012-08-07 11:29:40 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Romney release his birth certificate AND half of his 2010 tax return.


FTFY

So you're wrong. Again.

Go to bed.
 
2012-08-07 11:40:54 PM

shotglasss: Dinki: Of course politifact is a bunch of idiots. Once they decided to not simply verify the accuracy of a statement and started to try and parse what those statements might have been construed to mean, they lost all credibility.

Reid said someone told him that Romney didn't pay taxes for ten years. Now that could mean he actually paid no taxes for each of the ten years, or that he paid a net of 0 (or less) taxes for the ten years.

Either way, politifact has not dis-proven that Reid was told what he says he was told.

They should rescind this, and apologize to the world.

Better yet, Reid can:

a) give us his source so it can be verified
b) shut up, stop lying, and apologize for lying to us. Then resign for such a blatant lie on the floor of the Senate.


Personally I won't believe Reid is lying until Romney releases his taxes. That tax-and-spend liberal Mexican Mormon needs to get out of the race. He hasn't told the truth once during this race.
 
2012-08-07 11:46:12 PM
Having forgotten that truth is nonpartisan, they have been trying to be tougher on Democrats. They got caught. They lied.
 
2012-08-07 11:50:25 PM

Satanic_Hamster: There's a difference between "no proof" and "lied."

There's no proof that I railed your mother from behind last night subby, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.


Somebody's pants were on fire.

/I'm guessing hers
 
2012-08-08 12:14:28 AM
I prefer "Atomic Thong" myself. And now you're all imagining Harry Reid in a thong.

Anyhow, I fail to see how they can actually rate the truth-value of Reid's claim without evidence one way or the other. All the same, Reid's comments was just very well-earned comeuppance after BERF CERTIFIKT and swiftboating. The Republicans made this bed and Reid handcuffed them to it, and now they're whining about being handcuffed to a bed by a 72-year-old man which, no matter how you frame it, has to be a world first.
 
2012-08-08 12:29:56 AM

shower_in_my_socks: Unless I missed Romney releasing ten years of tax returns, as Obama has, how is Reid "lying"? It is currently unknown by all but Reid if he is lying or telling the truth.

It is easily within Romney's power to prove that Reid is lying, but for some reason he is choosing not to. I wonder why?


But Reid isn't lying. He was contacted by a source. Not an "anonymous" source, but one who asked not to be named. His story was confirmed by a reporter after the fact. Reid may have been misinformed, but that doesn't mean he's lying.

It would be SO easy to verify the veracity of this claim... just release the returns.

With $22-101 million in his IRA, it's perfectly plausible that he deferred ALL his income into tax shelters. Nobody is saying he broke the law. What he may have done is pretty un-patriotic, however.

Mitt Romney is a known liar. If he told me it was sunny, I'd have to check for myself. Harry Reid, on the other hand, has a much better track record for telling the truth. If he said it was sunny, I'd believe him. Why would he lie about that? Romney just lies because it's what he does.
 
2012-08-08 12:31:50 AM

TedDalton: TedDalton: cameroncrazy1984: cabbyman: Obama made his money from politics.

If by "politics" you mean "two books about his life before politics"

You mean the two books not one would have bought if Obama wasn't in politics?

/damn you me


Got so excited there, you spooged before you even got it out of your pants, didn't you? Poor thing.
 
2012-08-08 12:31:59 AM
Hobodeluxe:

s3.amazonaws.com


For some reason, the way this picture is lit reminds me of this:

i302.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-08 12:35:45 AM
Haven't taken "Politifact" seriously for at least two years.

F*ck those lazy, cowardly hacks.
 
2012-08-08 12:45:51 AM
Sheesh, a fact-check website actually calls out someone on the left for making unsubstantiated claims, and suddenly it is horrible.
 
2012-08-08 01:04:44 AM

LoneWolf343: Sheesh, a fact-check website actually calls out someone on the left for making unsubstantiated claims, and suddenly it is horrible.


How do you know that Reid's statement is a lie? I'll wait.
 
2012-08-08 01:58:25 AM
How hard would it be for these kind of sites to rate something as 'unsupported' or 'unverified' instead of this childish nonsense? They will look like fools if it turns out to be true.
 
2012-08-08 02:08:38 AM
The longer this goes on, the more curious I get.
What is Romney hiding?
 
2012-08-08 02:17:21 AM

AnEvilGuest: What is Romney hiding?


Most likely that he took advantage of an amnesty policy in 2009 to repatriate millions of dollars in untaxed Swiss accounts without prosecution.
 
2012-08-08 02:25:05 AM

NewportBarGuy: Politifact is a great idea in theory, but the execution blows.


what do you expect from the liberal lamestream msm?
 
2012-08-08 02:56:13 AM

cameroncrazy1984: cabbyman: Obama made his money from politics.

If by "politics" you mean "two books about his life before politics"


Writing best selling books isn't a "real" job
 
2012-08-08 02:56:42 AM

Britney Spear's Speculum: Unsubstantiated claims: Democrats - 1; Republicans - Over 9000

I also like how Romney told Reid to put up or shut up. No Mittens, When someone makes an objective claim that is easily refutable with proof, the onus does not belongs person making the claim to produce more credible accusers.


It's a trap. Even Romney knows that Reid and his source cannot disclose Romney's tax returns without breaking the law. Only Romney can.
 
2012-08-08 03:02:01 AM

sprawl15: Romney said a lot of different things against Reid, including a categorical denial. There was a lot of weird hollow bluster, but he did come right out and say, ""Harry's going to have to describe who it is he spoke with, because, of course, that is totally and completely wrong, [...] It's untrue, dishonest and inaccurate. It's wrong."


He also said Reid need to "put up or shut up." Which is an odd thing to say for the only person legally authorized to "put up" on the subject.
 
2012-08-08 03:05:11 AM

shotglasss: Better yet, Reid can:

a) give us his source so it can be verified
b) shut up, stop lying, and apologize for lying to us. Then resign for such a blatant lie on the floor of the Senate.


Even better, Romney can hand Reid his arse by actually releasing his tax records.

Odd you didn't see the obvious solution...
 
2012-08-08 03:09:53 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: Britney Spear's Speculum: Unsubstantiated claims: Democrats - 1; Republicans - Over 9000

I also like how Romney told Reid to put up or shut up. No Mittens, When someone makes an objective claim that is easily refutable with proof, the onus does not belongs person making the claim to produce more credible accusers.

Okay, so when someone makes a claim that is not easily refuted, where does the onus lie?

Does the ease of refutation determine who has the onus? Why?


Tough to say. But that isn't the case here.
 
2012-08-08 03:15:12 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: cameroncrazy1984: tenpoundsofcheese: i thought 0bama released 1 birth cert. Did the WH actually release 2?

The fact that you claim to not know says a lot about you.

yeah, it says I am not a birther and I never cared about this issue.

so you are saying the WH released 2 birth certificates. Interesting, I didn't know that.


No shat.
 
2012-08-08 03:19:38 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: Looks like you are lying again.

Romney release his birth certificate AND his 2010 tax return.

So the WH did not release MORE than Mitt plus tax returns combined.

So favorited since your lies are so easy to find.


Jesus you're an ignorant fuk. The WH released TWO versions of a birth certificate, ONE after the first wasn't good enough for Republican scum like you, and 10 years of tax returns.

Do you not have access to the Internet? Where you moronic dipshat post can utterly be destroyed?
 
2012-08-08 03:25:23 AM

The Jami Turman Fan Club: Stock sales are capital gains tax, not income tax.


Capital gain taxes are a subset of income taxes.
 
2012-08-08 03:51:33 AM

shotglasss: shut up, stop lying, and apologize for lying to us. Then resign for such a blatant lie on the floor of the Senate.


So you want most of the Republican party to resign?... I'm okay with that.

...

Seriously though... I tend to believe Reid over Romney simply because in my experience if someone is called out on something and that person can easily prove it (right or wrong), but they choose to keep the proof hidden... it's because the person that was calling them out is right, or there is something else to it they are afraid for people to see. Reid called him out... So either Reid is correct or Romney is hiding something else he is afraid for us to see. At this point the idea that Romney's tax history is squeaky clean (as in nothing illegal or exploiting loopholes... that kind of thing) is laughable. If it was... he wouldn't have been so specific about only releasing 2 years worth of records. Even sending his wife out to tote the message that there would only be 2 years released and that is all "you people" get to see.
 
2012-08-08 04:01:16 AM

JohnnyC: shotglasss: shut up, stop lying, and apologize for lying to us. Then resign for such a blatant lie on the floor of the Senate.

So you want most of the Republican party to resign?... I'm okay with that.

...

Seriously though... I tend to believe Reid over Romney simply because in my experience if someone is called out on something and that person can easily prove it (right or wrong), but they choose to keep the proof hidden... it's because the person that was calling them out is right, or there is something else to it they are afraid for people to see. Reid called him out... So either Reid is correct or Romney is hiding something else he is afraid for us to see. At this point the idea that Romney's tax history is squeaky clean (as in nothing illegal or exploiting loopholes... that kind of thing) is laughable. If it was... he wouldn't have been so specific about only releasing 2 years worth of records. Even sending his wife out to tote the message that there would only be 2 years released and that is all "you people" get to see.


Personally I think it's going to show the use of nannies. Which seems not very damning at first, until you remember the hoopla of a blogger saying Mrs. Romney never worked a day in her life (a blogger that's a mom, that was obviously talking about employment) and the Romney campaign got all butt-hurt about how Democrats hate stay-at-home moms and think they don't work. Because that's going to be hilarious.
 
2012-08-08 04:10:06 AM
Yeah, because they really want to have Adelson come at them with a billion dollars in lawyers...
 
2012-08-08 04:31:48 AM
Haha, Politifact. fark those guys.

Both sides of an argument aren't always equal, and to pretend they are is insulting and damaging to this country and the world.
 
2012-08-08 04:42:40 AM
I thought everybody knew that the rhyme "lyre, lyre, pants on fire" refers to the medieval musical instrument.
 
2012-08-08 05:17:31 AM
My own personal theory to the tax returns not being released.

Methinks we are not seeing the forest for the trees.
Paying zero taxes legally using tricks in the book is small potatoes. So is the 2009 amnesty program. Cayman Islands are also a distraction.
Audits I can believe and would come up clean.

to me, at least IMHO, the answer is something far worse. It more relates to Bain, which is als...
o a small potato in this.

Methinks that Romney has far more fingers in many pies. The problem being the aggregate of those pies is that each and every one of them helped to contribute to the financial crash.

Toxic real estate loans. Gas price fixation from overseas.
We already know about Bain and outsourcing jobs to China. That would be revealed as a very small percentage of the huge extent of actual outsourcing. The returns would show a far greater percentage of responsibility.

All perfectly legal tax-wise. But they would all reveal a picture of a man who had singlehandedly done more to destroy the economy of the US than any other person walking on the face of this earth.

This information if it went public would destroy Romney from ever attaining the presidency.

THIS is what methinks Romney is hiding from the people.
 
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