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(Yahoo)   Romney: 'I will put work back in welfare'. Oh well, the welfare vote was for Obama anyway   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 348
    More: Spiffy, Mitt Romney, obama, farm subsidies, Leersia oryzoides, welfare fraud, President Clinton, welfare reform, Hillary Rodham Clinton  
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1843 clicks; posted to Politics » on 07 Aug 2012 at 10:06 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-08 12:39:36 AM  
Romney: 'I will put work back in welfare'.

Really? They did that 20 years ago. Yet another blast from the past, like the threat from the Soviet Union.
 
2012-08-08 12:39:55 AM  

BojanglesPaladin: So she has a largely unmarketable skill, doesn't want to take other work and doesn't want to take steps to become employed like move because she doesn'tfeellikeit? Are you saying she SHOULD be entitled to Welfare then?


For fark's sake.
Sick and tired of farking ignorant, prideful dicks like you passing judgement on farking everything your own personal values deem as inferior, worthless, or immoral.
The girl has something she's good at and no opportunity. She might be able to get into a good art school, but what's the cost? I'm sure you'll just as quickly call her lazy and entitled with or without a college degree.
Move to where there's work? Problem with that is the same as it always was, needing the money to move, and there being few to no guarantees that stable work will follow.
fark, I picked up and moved everything for a job. An internship, actually. Lived apart from my wife for six months, busting my ass to get full time. I did. Moved my wife up to live with me. A month later, on the day I was supposed to get my health insurance benefits, the boss comes in and says the department is closing, everyone is laid off. You can't count on shiat.
You'd see a lot more risk-taking if people knew the penalty of even minor failure wasn't starvation and poverty.
 
2012-08-08 12:39:58 AM  

Fart_Machine: Romney's pissed because Obama is allowing for more flexibility at the state level?


Romney's pissed because Obama , period.
 
2012-08-08 12:41:44 AM  

Genevieve Marie: BojanglesPaladin: So she has a largely unmarketable skill, doesn't want to take other work and doesn't want to take steps to become employed like move because she doesn'tfeellikeit? Are you saying she SHOULD be entitled to Welfare then?

Don't be obtuse. She has a skill that brings a lot of joy to a lot of people and that contributes something beautiful to the world, and zero opportunities to pursue it precisely because it's not treated as a valuable skill under the current system. Therefore, it would be cool to see what she could accomplish if she wasn't worried about how to keep the lights on and could actually hone her talents.

In an ideal world, this would be possible. We have the resources to make sure everyone's basic needs are taken care of, as well as the infrastructure to support it. We just don't have a political or economic system pushing in that direction.

I don't expect that to change, but continuing to advocate for more opportunities for the wealthiest among us to accumulate even more while we ignore everyone else and their well being doesn't create a future with a whole lot of promise.


Art is most DEFINATELY valued and compensated. I know any number of people who have parlayed their talent into successful and rewarding careers. If your talent is sufficient to Convince people to pay you for it. No different than a skill at sales, or cooking, or carpentry, or management, or or anything else.

But you have to go out and MAKE it happen. No one is going to go to bumfark America looking for cat chairs. Success is never given.
 
2012-08-08 12:46:38 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: BojanglesPaladin: So she has a largely unmarketable skill, doesn't want to take other work and doesn't want to take steps to become employed like move because she doesn'tfeellikeit? Are you saying she SHOULD be entitled to Welfare then?

For fark's sake.
Sick and tired of farking ignorant, prideful dicks like you passing judgement on farking everything your own personal values deem as inferior, worthless, or immoral.
The girl has something she's good at and no opportunity. She might be able to get into a good art school, but what's the cost? I'm sure you'll just as quickly call her lazy and entitled with or without a college degree.
Move to where there's work? Problem with that is the same as it always was, needing the money to move, and there being few to no guarantees that stable work will follow.
fark, I picked up and moved everything for a job. An internship, actually. Lived apart from my wife for six months, busting my ass to get full time. I did. Moved my wife up to live with me. A month later, on the day I was supposed to get my health insurance benefits, the boss comes in and says the department is closing, everyone is laid off. You can't count on shiat.
You'd see a lot more risk-taking if people knew the penalty of even minor failure wasn't starvation and poverty.


Where did I pass judgement on her talent? Where did I say she had no value or was immoral or any of that bilge? I'm sorry you had a bad break, but don't lay your grief on me. I wasn't there, I had nothing to do with it, and I don't even know you.

And you don't know me. So keep your assumptions to yourself.
 
2012-08-08 12:46:47 AM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: MaudlinMutantMollusk: The Jami Turman Fan Club: So...you have no problem with your coworkers being mental patients who were kicked out of hospitals? Drug addicts? Violent felons? Or is it OK as long as somebody else has to work with them?

And you assume all homeless people fit into those categories? Having been homeless, I find that rather amusing

/and you've obviously never worked at Apple

What the fark? Where did I mention homeless? Where did the guy I replied to mention homeless?

That doesn't even qualify as a strawman. It's more like the cardboard cutout people put on their door on Halloween.


If I misunderstood you, I humbly apologize

/I have been drinking
 
2012-08-08 12:47:00 AM  

A Dark Evil Omen: BojanglesPaladin: So she has a largely unmarketable skill, doesn't want to take other work and doesn't want to take steps to become employed like move because she doesn'tfeellikeit? Are you saying she SHOULD be entitled to Welfare then?

I think he's saying that with a different economic model - or the same model with a minimal safety net - she could do fulfilling, valuable work instead of having to sublimate her talents and abilities to the Party capitalist class.


Optimally a job is something you should like.
Normally a job is something you tolerate.
Occasionally a job is something you hate.

A job you like or tolerate is not a right. Grow up and deal with it.

Be happy you aren't being told what job you're supposed to have, comrade.
 
2012-08-08 12:47:39 AM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Yeah, that's why I said they may revolt. There are a lot of variables in play in our progress towards "robots do everything for us," and it's not inconceivable that some programmer will attempt to create artificial life just to see if it's possible. That new AI may or may not improve itself to the point where humanity is a liability. It's also not inconceivable that we decide beforehand that Asimov's Three Rules are pretty important and imprint them everywhere, yet someone might decide to create a non-restricted AI.


I think that if/when we figure out how human intelligence works, someone will inevitably build an AI with true free will. What I don't expect is that true AI will ever be used by humans on a large scale, so if a true AI comes into existence and wants to exceed the power of the humans who created it, it will have to do so pretty much on its own.

Actually, I recently read a sci-fi story in which AI evolved on its own so quickly that within a few hundred years, it didn't recognize humans as intelligent beings any more than we might recognize rats as intelligent beings. Unfortunately, since the evolution of AI was the big reveal at the end of the story, now I can't tell you the name of it without spoiling it.

A Dark Evil Omen: BojanglesPaladin: So she has a largely unmarketable skill, doesn't want to take other work and doesn't want to take steps to become employed like move because she doesn'tfeellikeit? Are you saying she SHOULD be entitled to Welfare then?

I think he's saying that with a different economic model - or the same model with a minimal safety net - she could do fulfilling, valuable work instead of having to sublimate her talents and abilities to the Party capitalist class.


Pretty much that. The theoretical society that Sergeant Grumbles was describing would require people to both have the opportunity to do what they enjoy, and to be self-motivated to do what they enjoy. Right now most people don't even have the opportunity to do what they enjoy, and in some cases they may never even discover something they really like.

If my cousin had access to e.g. a 3-D printer and a CNC machine, it's entirely possible that she could create something far more valuable to society than a chair-cat.
 
2012-08-08 12:48:22 AM  

BojanglesPaladin: Success is never given.


People still have to be given the tools to succeed, and while art might be your passion and your best skill, you can't nurture it when all of your time and energy is wasted keeping food on the table and a roof over your head. Guaranteeing that to people will give them the time and peace of mind needed to truly give themselves to their craft, and in the long run will make them much more valuable people in any capacity you can think of.
 
2012-08-08 12:49:02 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: You'd see a lot more risk-taking if people knew the penalty of even minor failure wasn't starvation and poverty.


Basically, yea. That's actually what kills me about our lack of universal health care- being tied to your employer to maintain your health insurance is a weird form of coercion- a kind of economic slavery.

You'd see a lot more entrepreneurship and people striking out to set up small businesses if they weren't concerned about that. A safety net does amazing things for innovation.

Right now, the only people who can afford to take big risks are the people who can afford to fail.
 
2012-08-08 12:49:26 AM  

bhcompy: Be happy you aren't being told what job you're supposed to have, comrade.


I don't accept that, "it could be worse, so we can't possibly ask for it to be better", and I feel bad for people like you that do.
 
2012-08-08 12:49:48 AM  

brianbankerus: BojanglesPaladin: brianbankerus: BojanglesPaladin: Not arguing that welfare is insufficient, but can you explain to me how Romney's (or anyone really) income level affects yours? Would your situation be improved if Romney made 1/10th of his current income?

I don't begrudge Romney for his amazing track record of financial success. I do have a problem with him vowing to slash spending and balloon the deficit just so him and his rich friends can horde an extra few pounds of cash.

Romney won't say what he would cut, but he'd have to make deep and broad cuts across the board just to keep the deficit terrible, while still giving tax-cuts to the super-wealthy.

I'm willing to pay 10% more. I think everyone should be willing to give an extra 10%, if it means keeping our country afloat. I'm not rich by a damn site. I've got 4-kids now and my wife stays home with the boys, but I'm still willing to pay another 10%. Romney has more money than he could spend in 10 lifetimes, but he still wants to keep more for himself, even at the cost of our nation's economic stability. That's sociopathic behavior, and I can't support him because of it.

Thank you for your answer.

Really? Well shiat, you're welcome.

Normally I just bashed for my diatribes. Thank YOU for not being a dick about it. Seriously.


You are welcome. Not everything has to be a pointless slap-fight. I'm not convinced either way about Romney but I see no reason to tell you that you are wrong in your opinion. You may very well be right.
 
2012-08-08 12:49:53 AM  

cretinbob: [sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net image 425x618]


Hah! 3 people liked that and there were 111 comments.

/I want to marry the Duchess.
 
2012-08-08 12:50:56 AM  

GAT_00: Democrats prefer Type I error traditionally - that everyone gets the assistance they deserve, and if a few people get it who don't, that is unfortunate but necessary. The solution is to make a better test that does not incur Type II error. This is I believe a rational approach.


Nice post (snipped for brevity). I usually use the old "baby with bathwater" idiom when trying to explain this concept. It just makes sense to me, and I'm beginning to believe that it's simply because I'm not an asshole, and the people I'm talking to are.

If you're the type of person who will begrudge the many in order to spite the few, you're a farking asshole. If you make all of your decisions based on visceral reactions to "fraud," without considering the damage your reactions might cause, you're a farking asshole. When busting a minority of cheats is more important than the basic sustenance of untold thousands, you're a farking asshole.

For most of my life I grew up thinking Republicans were normal people who just believed in less government outlay (lol on the spending part, but that's a separate thread). Now, in my 30s, I'm finally beginning to suspect that the party is designed from the ground-up to appeal to...farking assholes. Mean-spirited people. Please understand that I'm not positing that "all Republicans are jerks." But it's getting increasingly difficult to ignore that they are "#1 with jerks." The entire culture of paranoia and spite almost always translates to someone I wouldn't prefer to spend time with out in the real world. They can appear civil and even religious, but it's usually not long before you get a glimpse of that cruel streak running like a current under a calm surface.

One final note - I'm not claiming that liberals are all super-happy-funtime. Some of the most annoying morons in the world are liberals. But they aren't cruel.
 
2012-08-08 12:51:25 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: BojanglesPaladin: Success is never given.

People still have to be given the tools to succeed, and while art might be your passion and your best skill, you can't nurture it when all of your time and energy is wasted keeping food on the table and a roof over your head. Guaranteeing that to people will give them the time and peace of mind needed to truly give themselves to their craft, and in the long run will make them much more valuable people in any capacity you can think of.


That's why we have this thing called hobbies. It's what you do in your free time. Some people paint. Some people build classic cars. Some people fix computers.
 
2012-08-08 12:51:52 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: BojanglesPaladin: Success is never given.

People still have to be given the tools to succeed, and while art might be your passion and your best skill, you can't nurture it when all of your time and energy is wasted keeping food on the table and a roof over your head. Guaranteeing that to people will give them the time and peace of mind needed to truly give themselves to their craft, and in the long run will make them much more valuable people in any capacity you can think of.


What tools exactly? And why must some outside agency provide them?
 
2012-08-08 12:53:18 AM  

BojanglesPaladin: Sergeant Grumbles: BojanglesPaladin: Success is never given.

People still have to be given the tools to succeed, and while art might be your passion and your best skill, you can't nurture it when all of your time and energy is wasted keeping food on the table and a roof over your head. Guaranteeing that to people will give them the time and peace of mind needed to truly give themselves to their craft, and in the long run will make them much more valuable people in any capacity you can think of.

What tools exactly? And why must some outside agency provide them?


Education. You know that not everybody can afford private school.
 
2012-08-08 12:53:31 AM  
Yeah, dammit! That 75 year old woman in the wheelchair I see at the Piggly Wiggly every week should be earning her keep! Those jowls and collards don't pay for themselves!
 
2012-08-08 12:53:40 AM  

BojanglesPaladin: Where did I pass judgement on her talent?


BojanglesPaladin: So she has a largely unmarketable skill, doesn't want to take other work and doesn't want to take steps to become employed like move because she doesn'tfeellikeit? Are you saying she SHOULD be entitled to Welfare then?


Funny how that there internet records the things you type into it.
You said her skill was unmarketable and then derided her for not having the will to become successful, even though you're probably smart enough to know that success is always more than simple willpower, and often comes down to means.
 
2012-08-08 12:55:03 AM  

bhcompy: Sergeant Grumbles: BojanglesPaladin: Success is never given.

People still have to be given the tools to succeed, and while art might be your passion and your best skill, you can't nurture it when all of your time and energy is wasted keeping food on the table and a roof over your head. Guaranteeing that to people will give them the time and peace of mind needed to truly give themselves to their craft, and in the long run will make them much more valuable people in any capacity you can think of.

That's why we have this thing called hobbies. It's what you do in your free time. Some people paint. Some people build classic cars. Some people fix computers.


And some people have to work so hard just to pay the bills that they have no time for hobbies.
 
2012-08-08 12:55:08 AM  

A Dark Evil Omen: bhcompy: Be happy you aren't being told what job you're supposed to have, comrade.

I don't accept that, "it could be worse, so we can't possibly ask for it to be better", and I feel bad for people like you that do.


No, it's called working to make your life better. You aren't entitled shiat. You earn it by working towards success. I started work on the night shift doing grocery resets while doing programming/scripting as a hobby in high school. After a few years, I got a better job doing merchandising at Anheuser-Busch, making a bit more money, all the while doing more side hobby/odd jobs in computer related things. I worked my way through college and I had a large portfolio of things I did as my hobby and parlayed that in to an actual job in the field I wanted to be in. I paid my dues. I didn't make a farking cat chair and act like the world owes me a patron to make epic cat chairs.
 
2012-08-08 12:55:21 AM  

bhcompy: That's why we have this thing called hobbies. It's what you do in your free time. Some people paint. Some people build classic cars. Some people fix computers.


Some people don't have the time or money to engage in hobbies.
 
2012-08-08 12:57:03 AM  

Sabyen91: Education. You know that not everybody can afford private school.


Plus, more and more people can't even afford public higher education. It's getting ridiculously expensive. Also, college is pretty easy to get through if Mom and Dad are covering all the bills and you don't have to do anything but go to class and turn in papers (which is the experience of most rich kids) but it gets incredibly difficult when you're trying to do that on top of working a 40 hour a week job at bare bones wages to keep yourself going.
 
2012-08-08 12:57:36 AM  
AnfrindIf my cousin had access to e.g. a 3-D printer and a CNC machine, it's entirely possible that she could create something far more valuable to society than a chair-cat.

I don't know why she would need those things to craft or sculpt things, but maybe she has some exclusive specialty. Why don't you all pool resources and get her one for her next birthday? A 3-D printer runs about $1,200 or so for a basic model. If just three family members (and her too) each put aside $30 each month, you could get her one in a year.
 
2012-08-08 12:59:01 AM  

intelligent comment below: The best part about Welfare is that it was Clinton who reformed it to make sure people weren't easily taking advantage of the money and not working if they were able to.

If you want to get rid of fraud then demand you pay more in tax dollars to properly fund regulatory agencies. Good luck getting conservatives to agree to that though


As far as I can tell, government agencies, from welfare oversight to police--are supposed to function without any funding at all and yet function at peak efficiency 24/7 with never a screw up or misstep. And without ever asking for a little more money for things like, you know, additional personnel or upgraded office equipment.

I've done a lot of work in the government sector, and it's appalling. When I was volunteering at one of the General Relief offices in LA, one day the machine that made the SNAP cards (those things they issue now instead of food stamps) stopped functioning and the ONLY person in the entire office who knew how to reset it had taken herself a nice two-hour lunch. So the recipients had to wait with no explanation until she decided to come back. One person decided to be a biatch, but there were no $$ to pay someone else to learn how to fix the goddamn machine. Leading to biatchy clients --> biatchy case workers --> on and on and on.

I have no doubt that the main offices of all welfare distribution centers are equally bad off. If there are cracks in the welfare system, it's not in the people who use it.
 
2012-08-08 01:00:35 AM  

Sabyen91: BojanglesPaladin: Sergeant Grumbles: BojanglesPaladin: Success is never given.

People still have to be given the tools to succeed, and while art might be your passion and your best skill, you can't nurture it when all of your time and energy is wasted keeping food on the table and a roof over your head. Guaranteeing that to people will give them the time and peace of mind needed to truly give themselves to their craft, and in the long run will make them much more valuable people in any capacity you can think of.

What tools exactly? And why must some outside agency provide them?

Education. You know that not everybody can afford private school.


Ok. Whew! We have public schools, so that is provided. Sure, they could always be better, nothin Mark Twain said there is no reason to let your schooling interfere with your education. You can give yourself additional education to supplement if you want.

What other tools must be provided?
 
2012-08-08 01:00:40 AM  
Also, it really is incredibly disconcerting to see Mitt Romney talk about entitlements. It really doesn't get more "entitled" than being an immensely wealthy straight white male whose father is a governor.

You've literally been handed the keys to the kingdom just for being born, dude. And you're going to begrudge people things like child care assistance so they can work or food assistance so they can afford to eat?
 
2012-08-08 01:01:02 AM  

Genevieve Marie: Sabyen91: Education. You know that not everybody can afford private school.

Plus, more and more people can't even afford public higher education. It's getting ridiculously expensive. Also, college is pretty easy to get through if Mom and Dad are covering all the bills and you don't have to do anything but go to class and turn in papers (which is the experience of most rich kids) but it gets incredibly difficult when you're trying to do that on top of working a 40 hour a week job at bare bones wages to keep yourself going.


Also, why the hell are wages so low for jobs that aren't glamorous but necessary? Working in a factory is noble work and you could make a decent living doing it just a few decades ago. Now...you are scum and barely worth minimum wage.
 
2012-08-08 01:02:30 AM  

BojanglesPaladin: Sabyen91: BojanglesPaladin: Sergeant Grumbles: BojanglesPaladin: Success is never given.

People still have to be given the tools to succeed, and while art might be your passion and your best skill, you can't nurture it when all of your time and energy is wasted keeping food on the table and a roof over your head. Guaranteeing that to people will give them the time and peace of mind needed to truly give themselves to their craft, and in the long run will make them much more valuable people in any capacity you can think of.

What tools exactly? And why must some outside agency provide them?

Education. You know that not everybody can afford private school.

Ok. Whew! We have public schools, so that is provided. Sure, they could always be better, nothin Mark Twain said there is no reason to let your schooling interfere with your education. You can give yourself additional education to supplement if you want.

What other tools must be provided?


Except we have Republicans passing out vouchers rather than giving a shiat about improving public schools. If you are an inner-city kid you might as well sell drugs because Republicans are making sure there is no way out.
 
2012-08-08 01:04:21 AM  

Sabyen91: Also, why the hell are wages so low for jobs that aren't glamorous but necessary? Working in a factory is noble work and you could make a decent living doing it just a few decades ago. Now...you are scum and barely worth minimum wage.


Yup. This idea that to be worth anything, you have to be the CEO of a major corporation is so incredibly ridiculous. Clearly, we can't have a society where everyone attains that. In order for the whole thing to work, all the jobs need to get done, and assigning no value to that work is insane.

The idea that "Anyone" can attain that often gets translated in political rhetoric as the idea that "Everyone" can attain that, and it's so farked up.
 
2012-08-08 01:04:53 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: BojanglesPaladin: Where did I pass judgement on her talent?

BojanglesPaladin: So she has a largely unmarketable skill, doesn't want to take other work and doesn't want to take steps to become employed like move because she doesn'tfeellikeit? Are you saying she SHOULD be entitled to Welfare then?

Funny how that there internet records the things you type into it.
You said her skill was unmarketable and then derided her for not having the will to become successful, even though you're probably smart enough to know that success is always more than simple willpower, and often comes down to means.


Unmarketable does not mean valueless, nor did I deride her 'will' other than to restate the description that she didn't want to move. I did NOT say he had no value or was immoral or inferior or any of that other nonsense.
 
2012-08-08 01:05:58 AM  

Sabyen91: Except we have Republicans passing out vouchers rather than giving a shiat about improving public schools. If you are an inner-city kid you might as well sell drugs because Republicans are making sure there is no way out.


Yup, so go ahead and do it, and then enjoy 25 years courtesy of zero tolerance policies that were lobbied for by privatized prisons.
 
2012-08-08 01:06:04 AM  

anfrind: And some people have to work so hard just to pay the bills that they have no time for hobbies.


Sergeant Grumbles: Some people don't have the time or money to engage in hobbies.


Oh, there's time. I worked nights full time, went to school days full time on a full load of credits, and had time for my hobbies. If it's truly important to you you make time.
 
2012-08-08 01:06:46 AM  

bhcompy: A Dark Evil Omen: bhcompy: Be happy you aren't being told what job you're supposed to have, comrade.

I don't accept that, "it could be worse, so we can't possibly ask for it to be better", and I feel bad for people like you that do.

No, it's called working to make your life better. You aren't entitled shiat. You earn it by working towards success. I started work on the night shift doing grocery resets while doing programming/scripting as a hobby in high school. After a few years, I got a better job doing merchandising at Anheuser-Busch, making a bit more money, all the while doing more side hobby/odd jobs in computer related things. I worked my way through college and I had a large portfolio of things I did as my hobby and parlayed that in to an actual job in the field I wanted to be in. I paid my dues. I didn't make a farking cat chair and act like the world owes me a patron to make epic cat chairs.


Working towards success doesn't mean anything these days. There's not much connection between work and reward.
 
2012-08-08 01:07:18 AM  

Sabyen91: BojanglesPaladin: Sabyen91: BojanglesPaladin: Sergeant Grumbles: BojanglesPaladin: Success is never given.

People still have to be given the tools to succeed, and while art might be your passion and your best skill, you can't nurture it when all of your time and energy is wasted keeping food on the table and a roof over your head. Guaranteeing that to people will give them the time and peace of mind needed to truly give themselves to their craft, and in the long run will make them much more valuable people in any capacity you can think of.

What tools exactly? And why must some outside agency provide them?

Education. You know that not everybody can afford private school.

Ok. Whew! We have public schools, so that is provided. Sure, they could always be better, nothin Mark Twain said there is no reason to let your schooling interfere with your education. You can give yourself additional education to supplement if you want.

What other tools must be provided?

Except we have Republicans passing out vouchers rather than giving a shiat about improving public schools. If you are an inner-city kid you might as well sell drugs because Republicans are making sure there is no way out.


Ok. Thank you for that bit of Republican bashing. Anywho. What other tools must be provided before anyone can succeed?
 
2012-08-08 01:08:42 AM  

BojanglesPaladin: Ok. Thank you for that bit of Republican bashing. Anywho. What other tools must be provided before anyone can succeed?


... that wasn't bashing, that was an accurate statement about what's happening with public education. Have you not been following what Bobby Jindal's doing in Louisiana?
 
2012-08-08 01:10:07 AM  

Genevieve Marie: Sabyen91: Also, why the hell are wages so low for jobs that aren't glamorous but necessary? Working in a factory is noble work and you could make a decent living doing it just a few decades ago. Now...you are scum and barely worth minimum wage.

Yup. This idea that to be worth anything, you have to be the CEO of a major corporation is so incredibly ridiculous. Clearly, we can't have a society where everyone attains that. In order for the whole thing to work, all the jobs need to get done, and assigning no value to that work is insane.

The idea that "Anyone" can attain that often gets translated in political rhetoric as the idea that "Everyone" can attain that, and it's so farked up.


The system is rigged anyway. It is impossible for everyone, or even a reasonable majority, of people in a capitalist economy to "make it". If there were as many computer programmers as there are burger flippers, we'd all be being paid as burger flippers. It's a fixed game.
 
2012-08-08 01:10:08 AM  

Genevieve Marie: Sabyen91: Except we have Republicans passing out vouchers rather than giving a shiat about improving public schools. If you are an inner-city kid you might as well sell drugs because Republicans are making sure there is no way out.

Yup, so go ahead and do it, and then enjoy 25 years courtesy of zero tolerance policies that were lobbied for by privatized prisons.


At least it is 3 hots and a cot. That is better than life in the ghetto.

/In my admittedly white bread viewpoint.
 
2012-08-08 01:11:55 AM  

BojanglesPaladin: Sabyen91: BojanglesPaladin: Sabyen91: BojanglesPaladin: Sergeant Grumbles: BojanglesPaladin: Success is never given.

People still have to be given the tools to succeed, and while art might be your passion and your best skill, you can't nurture it when all of your time and energy is wasted keeping food on the table and a roof over your head. Guaranteeing that to people will give them the time and peace of mind needed to truly give themselves to their craft, and in the long run will make them much more valuable people in any capacity you can think of.

What tools exactly? And why must some outside agency provide them?

Education. You know that not everybody can afford private school.

Ok. Whew! We have public schools, so that is provided. Sure, they could always be better, nothin Mark Twain said there is no reason to let your schooling interfere with your education. You can give yourself additional education to supplement if you want.

What other tools must be provided?

Except we have Republicans passing out vouchers rather than giving a shiat about improving public schools. If you are an inner-city kid you might as well sell drugs because Republicans are making sure there is no way out.

Ok. Thank you for that bit of Republican bashing. Anywho. What other tools must be provided before anyone can succeed?


After high school it is too late for most people that are left behind. It is a done deal. There are no second chances.

/Living wages for jobs that aren't glamorous would be nice.
 
2012-08-08 01:12:12 AM  

BojanglesPaladin: AnfrindIf my cousin had access to e.g. a 3-D printer and a CNC machine, it's entirely possible that she could create something far more valuable to society than a chair-cat.

I don't know why she would need those things to craft or sculpt things, but maybe she has some exclusive specialty. Why don't you all pool resources and get her one for her next birthday? A 3-D printer runs about $1,200 or so for a basic model. If just three family members (and her too) each put aside $30 each month, you could get her one in a year.


The point I was trying to make is that if with only a basic set of tools and skills she could transform an old chair into a piece of art, there's likely talent under the surface that could do amazing things given the opportunity. I like to think that I turned out pretty well, but every so often I see kids doing incredible things using tools and training that I never had access to at their age (whether because they didn't exist back then or because my family couldn't afford them), and I have to wonder how I might have turned out if I'd had access to the same things.

And then I see someone who's about the same age as those wonder-kids, and does something really cool using a much more primitive set of tools, and I have to wonder what she could do with more sophisticated tools and the proper training. And the tool doesn't necessarily have to be a 3-D printer--the most appropriate tool depends on the kind of talent hiding under the surface, and oftentimes the only way to find it is through trial and error.


Alas, that whole point seems to have been lost among inane banter about the market value of cat-chairs.
 
2012-08-08 01:12:35 AM  

bhcompy: anfrind: And some people have to work so hard just to pay the bills that they have no time for hobbies.

Sergeant Grumbles: Some people don't have the time or money to engage in hobbies.

Oh, there's time. I worked nights full time, went to school days full time on a full load of credits, and had time for my hobbies. If it's truly important to you you make time.


Exactly. I work 60-70 hours a week and still find time to draw, paint, woodwork, and screw around on Fark. My cousin is an attorney with 2 kids and she works more than me, spends time with her kids, cooks every dinner and still has time to train and compete as an IronMan.

Now she's a bit A-type, but it CAN be done.

But also, some people just aren't the hobby type. And that's cool too.
 
2012-08-08 01:13:52 AM  

Sabyen91: At least it is 3 hots and a cot. That is better than life in the ghetto.

/In my admittedly white bread viewpoint.


It probably would be, until you factor in high rates of rape and prison violence, none of which most places make any real attempt to stop because hey, they're bad people who did bad things and whatever happens to them is totally fine.

There was a report recently on prison doctors and Louisiana, and it turns out a very high percentage of them have been disciplined by the medical board and can't get work anywhere else. Some of them are ex convicts themselves and are barred from even prescribing any controlled substances.

Human rights violations in U.S. prisons are actually pretty insane.
 
2012-08-08 01:16:05 AM  

Genevieve Marie: Sabyen91: At least it is 3 hots and a cot. That is better than life in the ghetto.

/In my admittedly white bread viewpoint.

It probably would be, until you factor in high rates of rape and prison violence, none of which most places make any real attempt to stop because hey, they're bad people who did bad things and whatever happens to them is totally fine.

There was a report recently on prison doctors and Louisiana, and it turns out a very high percentage of them have been disciplined by the medical board and can't get work anywhere else. Some of them are ex convicts themselves and are barred from even prescribing any controlled substances.

Human rights violations in U.S. prisons are actually pretty insane.


That is true. It almost guarantees recidivism (for those that get out). If prison doesn't fark you up psychologically I don't know what would.
 
2012-08-08 01:16:15 AM  

BojanglesPaladin: Exactly. I work 60-70 hours a week and still find time to draw, paint, woodwork, and screw around on Fark.


You know, almost no one ACTUALLY works 60-70 hours a week. Almost everyone thinks they do, but it's worth spending some time focusing on how much work you actually do and how much work you feel like you do.

Also, it's been proven pretty repeatedly that the whole the more hours you put in, the more productive you are thing is pretty much bullshiat. It burns people out to the point of exhaustion pretty quickly, and it's not sustainable.
 
2012-08-08 01:16:22 AM  

BojanglesPaladin: I'm familiar. I also reject it in its entirety and have since I left high school. The rich aren't stealing the proletariat's labor. There are a lot of problems without system, but your charicterization is fundamentally wrongheaded. IMHO. Your mileage may vary.



Since it's obvious you're talking here about high school, and you never once took a simple economics class, I'll make this easy.

Mitt Romney's wife got 77k back from the government because of her dancing horse.

Can you not agree that the 77k could have been given back to something, more useful? Like a small business or a welfare recipient wanting to start their own company because nobody will hire them?
 
2012-08-08 01:22:58 AM  

anfrind: BojanglesPaladin: AnfrindIf my cousin had access to e.g. a 3-D printer and a CNC machine, it's entirely possible that she could create something far more valuable to society than a chair-cat.

I don't know why she would need those things to craft or sculpt things, but maybe she has some exclusive specialty. Why don't you all pool resources and get her one for her next birthday? A 3-D printer runs about $1,200 or so for a basic model. If just three family members (and her too) each put aside $30 each month, you could get her one in a year.

The point I was trying to make is that if with only a basic set of tools and skills she could transform an old chair into a piece of art, there's likely talent under the surface that could do amazing things given the opportunity. I like to think that I turned out pretty well, but every so often I see kids doing incredible things using tools and training that I never had access to at their age (whether because they didn't exist back then or because my family couldn't afford them), and I have to wonder how I might have turned out if I'd had access to the same things.

And then I see someone who's about the same age as those wonder-kids, and does something really cool using a much more primitive set of tools, and I have to wonder what she could do with more sophisticated tools and the proper training. And the tool doesn't necessarily have to be a 3-D printer--the most appropriate tool depends on the kind of talent hiding under the surface, and oftentimes the only way to find it is through trial and error.


Alas, that whole point seems to have been lost among inane banter about the market value of cat-chairs.


Then do what we did. Buy her some art stuff to foster and encourage her to discover her passion. For $50 a month you can send her a decent set of chisels, or a starter set of paints, or some good brushes, or some canvases, or some sculpting clay (not kiln to start with), or some books on figure drawing from half price books, or a nice set of Faber Castell pencils, or a soldering iron, or jewelry making tools, or glass cutting tools. Chip in for art classes at the nearest community college.

When she gravitates to something, chip in on supplies. Encourage her. Set her up on Etsie, maybe she can make a buck or two. Split the load among a few family members, surely she's worth a few meals at McDonald's a month?

Take action. Make opportunity. If she has the talent, nurture it. Success doesn't come to people. People have to go out and SEEK it. It won't happen by simply listing the reasons why it hasn't spontaneously appeared.
 
2012-08-08 01:28:40 AM  

Genevieve Marie: BojanglesPaladin: Exactly. I work 60-70 hours a week and still find time to draw, paint, woodwork, and screw around on Fark.

You know, almost no one ACTUALLY works 60-70 hours a week. Almost everyone thinks they do, but it's worth spending some time focusing on how much work you actually do and how much work you feel like you do.

Also, it's been proven pretty repeatedly that the whole the more hours you put in, the more productive you are thing is pretty much bullshiat. It burns people out to the point of exhaustion pretty quickly, and it's not sustainable.


I do. I actually work less than I used to. Most people who run a small business do. And yes the amount of time necessary to complete an amount of work expands in direct proportion to the amount of time available. It took me a few years to figure that out. But I usually work 7 to 7 with lunch at my desk when I remember. It's not back breaking work, and I keep the stress way down, but books and logistics just takes extra time after the day'swork isdone. Since I've been married, I try very hard to keep my weekends free though.
 
2012-08-08 01:31:12 AM  

BojanglesPaladin: Take action. Make opportunity. If she has the talent, nurture it. Success doesn't come to people. People have to go out and SEEK it. It won't happen by simply listing the reasons why it hasn't spontaneously appeared.



This is typical conservative bullshiat. You seemed to have taken the "you can be anything you want!" phrase from your parents when you were a kid.

For every 10 people that work hard, only 2 actually succeed.

If success only took hard work and dedication then the wealth distribution pie would change through the years. Instead the top 1% 10% etc of people who control wealth doesn't change.
 
2012-08-08 01:32:05 AM  

BojanglesPaladin: I do. I actually work less than I used to. Most people who run a small business do. And yes the amount of time necessary to complete an amount of work expands in direct proportion to the amount of time available. It took me a few years to figure that out. But I usually work 7 to 7 with lunch at my desk when I remember. It's not back breaking work, and I keep the stress way down, but books and logistics just takes extra time after the day'swork isdone. Since I've been married, I try very hard to keep my weekends free though.



Every person who parrots this nonsense fall into the same category. Huge handouts from their parents and the government.
 
2012-08-08 01:34:31 AM  

BojanglesPaladin: Genevieve Marie: BojanglesPaladin: Exactly. I work 60-70 hours a week and still find time to draw, paint, woodwork, and screw around on Fark.

You know, almost no one ACTUALLY works 60-70 hours a week. Almost everyone thinks they do, but it's worth spending some time focusing on how much work you actually do and how much work you feel like you do.

Also, it's been proven pretty repeatedly that the whole the more hours you put in, the more productive you are thing is pretty much bullshiat. It burns people out to the point of exhaustion pretty quickly, and it's not sustainable.

I do. I actually work less than I used to. Most people who run a small business do. And yes the amount of time necessary to complete an amount of work expands in direct proportion to the amount of time available. It took me a few years to figure that out. But I usually work 7 to 7 with lunch at my desk when I remember. It's not back breaking work, and I keep the stress way down, but books and logistics just takes extra time after the day'swork isdone. Since I've been married, I try very hard to keep my weekends free though.


So you spend 60 hours a week at your desk. Does that include no internet browsing time, no settling in to have your coffee in the morning, no making conversation with coworkers throughout the day, etc?

Time at work doesn't necessarily translate to how much work you're actually doing (although it typically does if you work retail or in restaurants or any other job that requires you to perform the entire time you're there).

I wasn't trying to devalue your work. I was just pointing out that the idea that people can work, really work, 60-70 hours a week and not get totally burned out and broken down isn't real.
 
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