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(IGN)   Dear Dead or Alive 5 Collector's Edition: YOU'RE NOT HELPING. Signed- Everyone tired of hearing about misogyny in video games   (ign.com) divider line 194
    More: Asinine, collectors, misogyny, helping  
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6599 clicks; posted to Geek » on 07 Aug 2012 at 1:19 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-07 10:31:37 PM  

kroonermanblack: twat_waffle: I know that it's hard to understand

Not really.

You're a condescension spewing sexist/racist/chauvanist.

Basically 'all these things I point to right here? These are social injustices. Nothing else.'

I was baiting you, and you responded to the T how I expected. Which is disapointing, because if you're trolling you're losing points, and if you're serious...well, that's more disturbing.


I was trying to keep it civil, dude. It is a difficult issue to understand, much like how some of the finer points of race relations are also somewhat difficult to understand (like avoiding "you people" when talking to minorities, even if you don't mean it in a racist context). It takes time, commitment, patience, and humility to understand how other people see things if you grew up without ever being disadvantaged because of the color of your skin, your religion, your sex or gender, your sexual orientation, or your nationality.

I didn't say that only the things I was addressing were social injustices. I didn't provide an exhaustive list at all. If knocking that straw man down makes you feel better, though, who am I to tell you to stop.

You weren't baiting me. You were making a tu quoque argument that wasn't even entirely relevant, and you expected my response because you've made that argument before and it's been shot down by other feminists. White males have complete power over how they are portrayed in the media because the media is run by white males. White males also don't have the historical struggles against oppression that other demographic groups do. Context is everything. You want to ignore that context and act like the portrayal of white males in sitcoms and some commercials is degrading when it isn't really based on any historical oppression.

Read up on white privilege and male privilege. THAT'S why we don't get to complain about degrading imagery in movies, commercials, TV shows, etc. That imagery doesn't do anything to hold us as a group back. Reducing women to sexual objects does hold them back.

Keizer_Ghidorah: Forgive me for not making the mental vault from "a Burger King commercial makes you hungry for fries" to "playing a video game where the women are scantily-clad turns you into a women-hating misogynist". Especially when the same tire dold bullshiat gets trotted out with every single popular trend that's occured for the last few decades. It's time we stopped blaming people's misbehaviors on what's popular and focus on the people themselves. A person doesn't turn into a women-hating psycho from playing a couple of video games, he already had an existing problem.


No, but a person may learn to objectify women through how they are portrayed in the media he consumes. This will then influence how he interacts with women on a day to day basis and could cause problems for him and for the women he comes in contact with.

/most misogynists are not "woman-hating psychos"
 
2012-08-07 10:35:12 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: twat_waffle: So... Do Fallout 3 and Half Life 2 have the presentation and content of a MLP episode? How about Skyrim?

I have an issue with degrading caricatures, not with honest depictions.

I *guarantee* you that someone finds things degrading about Skyrim and Fallout 3 and Half Life 2. I *guarantee* it.

And even if I couldn't guarantee it, there's a high likelihood that someone would be offended by *something* in the game. Your thought process, logically, requires that I make the presentation and content as milquetoast as possible in order to avoid that.

/or do you mean people should be sensitive to YOUR sacred cows, but other peoples' objections don't matter so much, because yours are Goodthink?
//yeah, that's what I thought


People did get offended by Skyrim/Elder Scrolls in general. The Redguard race, their lore is that they find the use of magic distasteful. In most of the Elder Scrolls games the usage of magic is determined by the Intelligence stat. Since the Redguards are not good with magic, their Intelligence stat is low. This is an example of how Redguards look:

images.uesp.net

Yeah. Some people got mad.
 
2012-08-07 10:37:13 PM  

kroonermanblack: twat_waffle: I know that it's hard to understand

Not really.

You're a condescension spewing sexist/racist/chauvanist.

Basically 'all these things I point to right here? These are social injustices. Nothing else.'

I was baiting you, and you responded to the T how I expected. Which is disapointing, because if you're trolling you're losing points, and if you're serious...well, that's more disturbing.


Yeah, Poe's Law got over-run. Typically only a genuine zealot replies with such fervor and obsession, not to mention all the verbal obsfucation and irrational tie-ins to racism and whatever other tricks he/she/it thinks it's being clever with. I bet he/she/it would love Micheal Moore.
 
2012-08-07 10:48:13 PM  

kroonermanblack: But we can still openly mock the white male right? It's not like every TV show and commercial in the past 5 years hasn't had the 'too stupid to live' dad who couldn't figure out how to pour water out of a boot with the directions on the bottom and the emotional maturity of a downs syndrom regect, while the supermodel mom of 5 kids did everything, was a super genius, had common sense, and was in general the god among men.


Psst - who owns the advertising agencies and television production houses? It isn't minority women, y'know.

Also, what's the message of those TV shows and commercials? "Gosh, I'm sure too stupid to do things like dishes and laundry and mopping. I guess I'll just have to stick with leaving the house and having an income-producing job and rich social life. Have fun cleaning up my messes, honey!"
 
2012-08-07 10:48:59 PM  

LaBlueSkuld: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: twat_waffle: So... Do Fallout 3 and Half Life 2 have the presentation and content of a MLP episode? How about Skyrim?

I have an issue with degrading caricatures, not with honest depictions.

I *guarantee* you that someone finds things degrading about Skyrim and Fallout 3 and Half Life 2. I *guarantee* it.

And even if I couldn't guarantee it, there's a high likelihood that someone would be offended by *something* in the game. Your thought process, logically, requires that I make the presentation and content as milquetoast as possible in order to avoid that.

/or do you mean people should be sensitive to YOUR sacred cows, but other peoples' objections don't matter so much, because yours are Goodthink?
//yeah, that's what I thought

People did get offended by Skyrim/Elder Scrolls in general. The Redguard race, their lore is that they find the use of magic distasteful. In most of the Elder Scrolls games the usage of magic is determined by the Intelligence stat. Since the Redguards are not good with magic, their Intelligence stat is low. This is an example of how Redguards look:

[images.uesp.net image 210x288]

Yeah. Some people got mad.


I stand corrected, then. I think that they wanted to show a cultural disinclination toward the arcane and needed to adjust a stat in order to reflect that. Redgaurds are based on Moors, and Islam forbids any and all magic...
 
2012-08-07 10:55:08 PM  
I am not a clever man.
I am not ashamed to admit that I masturbate, and sometimes, yes it's to Yuri Futanari...
But I am somewhat ashamed to admit that I thought about purchasing this game because I thought the models didn't look half as bad as they did in DOA2.

I played DOA2 on a screen too small to notice the jiggle at first, then when I did I just played with myself the rest of the time. But I was a 15 year old boy.
 
2012-08-07 10:59:47 PM  

omeganuepsilon: Yeah, Poe's Law got over-run. Typically only a genuine zealot replies with such fervor and obsession, not to mention all the verbal obsfucation and irrational tie-ins to racism and whatever other tricks he/she/it thinks it's being clever with. I bet he/she/it would love Micheal Moore.


Michael Moore is a joke.

Bigotry is bigotry, whether it takes the form of racism, misogyny, homophobia or anything else. One form of bigotry is comparable to another. Why do you think the gay rights movement draws parallels to the civil rights movement?

This shiat bothers me because I have to deal with it. Most men who have been in relationships have dealt with it at one point or another.
 
2012-08-07 11:03:06 PM  

Theaetetus: kroonermanblack: But we can still openly mock the white male right? It's not like every TV show and commercial in the past 5 years hasn't had the 'too stupid to live' dad who couldn't figure out how to pour water out of a boot with the directions on the bottom and the emotional maturity of a downs syndrom regect, while the supermodel mom of 5 kids did everything, was a super genius, had common sense, and was in general the god among men.

Psst - who owns the advertising agencies and television production houses? It isn't minority women, y'know.

Also, what's the message of those TV shows and commercials? "Gosh, I'm sure too stupid to do things like dishes and laundry and mopping. I guess I'll just have to stick with leaving the house and having an income-producing job and rich social life. Have fun cleaning up my messes, honey!"


Also, good answer. That's partially what I was trying to say.
 
2012-08-07 11:16:52 PM  

twat_waffle: omeganuepsilon: Yeah, Poe's Law got over-run. Typically only a genuine zealot replies with such fervor and obsession, not to mention all the verbal obsfucation and irrational tie-ins to racism and whatever other tricks he/she/it thinks it's being clever with. I bet he/she/it would love Micheal Moore.

Michael Moore is a joke.

Bigotry is bigotry, whether it takes the form of racism, misogyny, homophobia or anything else. One form of bigotry is comparable to another. Why do you think the gay rights movement draws parallels to the civil rights movement?

This shiat bothers me because I have to deal with it. Most men who have been in relationships have dealt with it at one point or another.


Selling a beautiful(disclaimer: eye of the beholder) image to one who will appreciate it is not bigotry, does not teach or propagate bigotry.
Even your black face examples, haven't you seen Ghost World with the bit about Coons Chicken?
It is a service, on par with paying a landscaper to sculpt your garden, or a painter to do a mural of a sunset.

Shouldn't you be out picketing a Hooters or something?

/really bad feminists always remind me of Lexx
//the badly made propaganda video of an "ideal" woman represented by a lumpy potato and straggly carrots for legs
///Link
 
2012-08-07 11:28:07 PM  
Dead or Alive for Dreamcast had an age slider. The older you set it, the jigglier the girls got. I was probably 12 years old, but of course I was 21+...
 
2012-08-07 11:39:19 PM  

omeganuepsilon: twat_waffle: omeganuepsilon: Yeah, Poe's Law got over-run. Typically only a genuine zealot replies with such fervor and obsession, not to mention all the verbal obsfucation and irrational tie-ins to racism and whatever other tricks he/she/it thinks it's being clever with. I bet he/she/it would love Micheal Moore.

Michael Moore is a joke.

Bigotry is bigotry, whether it takes the form of racism, misogyny, homophobia or anything else. One form of bigotry is comparable to another. Why do you think the gay rights movement draws parallels to the civil rights movement?

This shiat bothers me because I have to deal with it. Most men who have been in relationships have dealt with it at one point or another.

Selling a beautiful(disclaimer: eye of the beholder) image to one who will appreciate it is not bigotry, does not teach or propagate bigotry.
Even your black face examples, haven't you seen Ghost World with the bit about Coons Chicken?
It is a service, on par with paying a landscaper to sculpt your garden, or a painter to do a mural of a sunset.

Shouldn't you be out picketing a Hooters or something?

/really bad feminists always remind me of Lexx
//the badly made propaganda video of an "ideal" woman represented by a lumpy potato and straggly carrots for legs
///Link


It is bigotry to portray women in such an overly sexualized and degrading manner. Some people appreciate lawn jockeys. That doesn't make them any less racist. You are, of course, free to consume such imagery, and I am free to point out how it degrades and objectifies women. If you need help understanding why such imagery is degrading, here you go (NSFW images).

I don't picket. I also don't eat at Hooters. I try not to patronize businesses whose policies and practices I don't agree with.
 
2012-08-07 11:55:57 PM  
According to twat waffle, lonely teenage boys fapping is bigotry now.


Now, I do agree it's a shame when healthy women think their bodies aren't good enough and do harmful things to themselves it still does not make the idealized physical images in media bigoted.

Also, most women i know understand they're not going to look like fictional vidja game characters.
 
2012-08-07 11:56:50 PM  
Well, folks, it's been a mostly interesting exchange, but I'm off work in about five minutes... I probably won't be Farking from home.
 
2012-08-07 11:57:57 PM  

twat_waffle: It is a difficult issue to understand,


Not really. You can keep saying that though, if it makes you feel better. I've done, if not your 'approved reading list' some reading on the issues.

I've got my racism and sexism all under control. I deal with them as best I can, because I'll be the first to admit I have prejudices which are unfair and make me uncomfortable. So I deal with them.

Repeatedly saying 'it is a difficult issue' is a very sly way of saying 'you're far too stupid to understand what you're saying and why it's stupid, so I won't engage you until you are worthy of it according to my standards, which means you don't matter', and is extremely patronizing, and diminishing of my statements and opinions.

And I don't think white men are villified, persecuted, or so on. I was just making an absurd point that apparently was too close to reallity for people to realize it was a deliberately absurd point. I'm also not sold on male privelege, white privelege, or many of the similar concepts, despite reading up on them. They're simply too open, and easy to manipulate with emotion and words, with very little hard fact that can't be twisted, and that goes both directions.

I also can't spell privelege for shiat for some reason.
 
2012-08-08 12:01:16 AM  

Lanadapter: According to twat waffle, lonely teenage boys fapping is bigotry now.


Now, I do agree it's a shame when healthy women think their bodies aren't good enough and do harmful things to themselves it still does not make the idealized physical images in media bigoted.

Also, most women i know understand they're not going to look like fictional vidja game characters.


Teenage boys don't know any better, and their parents should probably intervene and teach them about respecting women. Game designers are supposed to be adults, therefore they should know better.

Most women get their body image issues from women's magazines like Cosmo. DoA, Maxim, and shiat like that objectifies women and reinforces disrespecting them.
 
2012-08-08 12:09:13 AM  

twat_waffle: If you need help understanding why such imagery is degrading


It's not my lack of understanding, it's your delusional reading into other people's preferences.

To help with your understanding from your own link:

Sexual objectification refers to the practice of regarding or treating another person merely as an instrument (object) towards one's sexual pleasure, and a sex object is a person who is regarded simply as an object of sexual gratification or who is sexually attractive. Objectification more broadly is an attitude that regards a person as a commodity or as an object for use, with little or no regard for a person's personality or sentience.[1][2] Objectification is most commonly examined at a societal level, but can also arise at an individual level.
___________________________________
Video games are not real people, nor sentient(are you trying to say that "no regard for the video game's sentience" is a bad thing?) All video games, in essence ARE objects, there is no such thing as being degrading to them. Games are not teaching people how to act, if they were, the 3 million Call of Duty Players would be out shooting eachother, and millions of other people would be killing hookers to get their money back, etc etc.

Even so, plenty of personality is written into these parts, in addition to fighting styles. (as needs be to add variety to the game) The core attribute of any game like this is about competition, if it can be made visually appealing to the masses, so be it.

The game is not ABOUT sex, but sexiness is icing on the cake(for some).

Newsflash, games are shallow entertainment for those of us who ARE able to separate them from reality. It's sad when we find people like you who cannot make that distinction between fiction and reality, and have to protest what boils down to normal supply and demand.

Give it up already, you're not recruiting here...

farm3.staticflickr.com
 
2012-08-08 12:11:50 AM  

twat_waffle: Well, folks, it's been a mostly interesting exchange, but I'm off work in about five minutes... I probably won't be Farking from home.


gym in 26 you mean
 
2012-08-08 12:16:40 AM  

kroonermanblack: twat_waffle: It is a difficult issue to understand,

Not really. You can keep saying that though, if it makes you feel better. I've done, if not your 'approved reading list' some reading on the issues.

I've got my racism and sexism all under control. I deal with them as best I can, because I'll be the first to admit I have prejudices which are unfair and make me uncomfortable. So I deal with them.

Repeatedly saying 'it is a difficult issue' is a very sly way of saying 'you're far too stupid to understand what you're saying and why it's stupid, so I won't engage you until you are worthy of it according to my standards, which means you don't matter', and is extremely patronizing, and diminishing of my statements and opinions.

And I don't think white men are villified, persecuted, or so on. I was just making an absurd point that apparently was too close to reallity for people to realize it was a deliberately absurd point. I'm also not sold on male privelege, white privelege, or many of the similar concepts, despite reading up on them. They're simply too open, and easy to manipulate with emotion and words, with very little hard fact that can't be twisted, and that goes both directions.

I also can't spell privelege for shiat for some reason.


My "approved reading list" was Wikipedia articles, not Womyn Power Quarterly.

You are never done dealing with your hidden biases. The fact that you don't have a problem with how women are objectified in some games shows that you still have some issues to work out.

"It's a difficult issue" means that it's hard to understand if you've never been the victim of race or sex based oppression. That's why I brought up the N-word paradox. I was acknowledging a reality, not patronizing you. I apologize for my choice of words. I meant no offense.

Let me ask you something: Has a cop ever stopped you for some obviously bullshiat reason? If they did, were you free to go after minimal hassle? Has a car salesman or mechanic ever patronized you and then tried to add bullshiat to the price of the car you were buying or the repair work? There. White privilege and male privilege.

/seriously, last one for the night
 
2012-08-08 12:34:06 AM  
Simple.

I like women.
I like sexy women.
I like watching sexy women.

Maybe I want to watch sexy women in cartoon form fight each other...
It is NOT harming anyone!

Get a life...go suck a....go lick a...go wack yourself off...go sleep, read, drink, eat, shiat, breathe, whatever...
I don't care, I don't give a shiat.

You've got your life, get the hell out of mine, you self-righteous, opinionated, arrogant, puritanical...

Now, I've got a whole internet of free media of women in various states of dress
that I'll enjoy in my home without interference or harming anyone.
Or maybe I want to play a game with jiggling whatever...

Or perhaps you want to play a game of overly muscular nude men dueling each other with their oversized wangs.
(there's your next game venture capitalists...new market)
I do NOT care.

I've got mine, you've got yours...fark off.

/excuse me, I've got to go make some other unneeded or valueless comments elsewhere on the web...
 
2012-08-08 01:00:10 AM  
Oh christ, when will you idiots realize that the games industry isn't shaping what the public wants, what the public wants is shaping what the games industry creates! Stop whining about how horrible it is to see a little bit of skin, you prude twits, and start realizing that they're creating something based on MARKET DEMAND. If you wanna blame anyone for jiggling boobs in video games? Blame the people that BUY THEM.
 
2012-08-08 01:20:24 AM  
Twat waffle, I'm sorry penises are so bigoted.

I will show my regrets by looking up big breasted women porns and bigoting into this tissue.
 
2012-08-08 01:22:04 AM  

twat_waffle: The media's portrayal of women gives a lot of women body image issues.


Are you saying that women are easily influenced and incapable of making up their own minds about things? Because I gotta tell you, blaming women's issues on media....that doesn't make women look strong and independent. Just saying.
 
2012-08-08 01:23:37 AM  

vharshyde: Oh christ, when will you idiots realize that the games industry isn't shaping what the public wants, what the public wants is shaping what the games industry creates! Stop whining about how horrible it is to see a little bit of skin, you prude twits, and start realizing that they're creating something based on MARKET DEMAND. If you wanna blame anyone for jiggling boobs in video games? Blame the people that BUY THEM.


Personal responsibility? In this day in age? Poppycock!
 
2012-08-08 01:31:31 AM  
Wow, discussion of bigotry and Twat Waffle living up to their username aside. Was I the only one who was actually surprised at the relative tameness of the CE bonus in comparison to Subby's reaction?

I was seriously expecting something along the lines of Agarest War (which I bought) or your box standard DoA CE from Japan.
-J-
 
2012-08-08 01:42:55 AM  

Yuri Futanari: There ARE things that are deviant, perverse, and not wholesome. These things should be purged and people who view them exiled, or at least make their "hobbies" public so they go into seclusion and won't taint our culture anymore than they already have.

...

I'll take your flames now.


I love your name.
 
2012-08-08 01:53:18 AM  

Yuri Futanari: Vegan Meat Popsicle: "Misogyny, sex, senseless violence and crude humor sells entertainment products to certain segments of the population, more at 11".

If you don't like it, don't buy it, but can we please stop pretending that it's not perfectly normal for human beings to at least occasionally enjoy guilty pleasures that aren't 100% healthy or politically correct?

This is the attitude which is destroying our culture. There ARE things that are deviant, perverse, and not wholesome. These things should be purged and people who view them exiled, or at least make their "hobbies" public so they go into seclusion and won't taint our culture anymore than they already have.

This is not a popular view, many Farkers will probably take issue with my stance, but just look at the world around you and see all the sin and sickness. Pornography, sexualized media, masturbation, even some of the more violent and vulgur music (ICP) has a direct correlation to our societal well-being. It didn't used to be like this, and it doesn't have to be.

I'll take your flames now.


Lighten up, Travis
 
2012-08-08 03:26:40 AM  
If they really wanted publicity they would include a swimsuit for female fans in one package and then something in a different package for guys (not sure what).......but then the fat girls would get all upset at the sizes of the bikinis or something..........but hey, no such thing as bad PR.
 
2012-08-08 07:47:33 AM  
Great thread. Guys named "Yuri Futanari" and "Twat Waffle" are the champions of morality and women's rights.

/fark can be hilarious
 
2012-08-08 08:20:14 AM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: Lolthien: Keizer_Ghidorah: It's a video game. Video games do not influence people. ...

Forgive me for not making the mental vault from "a Burger King commercial makes you hungry for fries" to "playing a video game where the women are scantily-clad turns you into a women-hating misogynist". Especially when the same tire dold bullshiat gets trotted out with every single popular trend that's occured for the last few decades. It's time we stopped blaming people's misbehaviors on what's popular and focus on the people themselves. A person doesn't turn into a women-hating psycho from playing a couple of video games, he already had an existing problem.


I tend to agree that video games won't make someone a psycho who was well-adjusted prior. However, these messages compound on themselves. If every game (I exaggerate for effect here) a young man plays show women as vapid sex machines then eventually that will color his impression of women in general. It may not make him a psycho.. but it might make him less likely to stand up when an actual woman-hating psycho starts getting all misogynisty.

Enough people don't say anything, and in a few years it's not nearly as socially unacceptable.

And what about girls playing these games. Body issues and self-esteem issues cannot help but be affected by popular media (which is the point I was getting at about advertising: advertising makes you feel inadequate unless you buy whatever they're hawking). Girls will start to see these depictions of women as 'what guys want' and naturally adjust a tiny bit over a long period of time. It plays both ways.

Now my previous comment may be hopelessly overestimating the level of discourse in a Fark thread, but still... Video games don't turn people into monsters, I agree. But in the absence of strong role models for any particular individual, media (video games included) will take the place of those role models... and that's how you change a society.
 
2012-08-08 08:20:19 AM  

twat_waffle: kroonermanblack: twat_waffle: It is a difficult issue to understand,

Not really. You can keep saying that though, if it makes you feel better. I've done, if not your 'approved reading list' some reading on the issues.

I've got my racism and sexism all under control. I deal with them as best I can, because I'll be the first to admit I have prejudices which are unfair and make me uncomfortable. So I deal with them.

Repeatedly saying 'it is a difficult issue' is a very sly way of saying 'you're far too stupid to understand what you're saying and why it's stupid, so I won't engage you until you are worthy of it according to my standards, which means you don't matter', and is extremely patronizing, and diminishing of my statements and opinions.

And I don't think white men are villified, persecuted, or so on. I was just making an absurd point that apparently was too close to reallity for people to realize it was a deliberately absurd point. I'm also not sold on male privelege, white privelege, or many of the similar concepts, despite reading up on them. They're simply too open, and easy to manipulate with emotion and words, with very little hard fact that can't be twisted, and that goes both directions.

I also can't spell privelege for shiat for some reason.

My "approved reading list" was Wikipedia articles, not Womyn Power Quarterly.

You are never done dealing with your hidden biases. The fact that you don't have a problem with how women are objectified in some games shows that you still have some issues to work out.

"It's a difficult issue" means that it's hard to understand if you've never been the victim of race or sex based oppression. That's why I brought up the N-word paradox. I was acknowledging a reality, not patronizing you. I apologize for my choice of words. I meant no offense.

Let me ask you something: Has a cop ever stopped you for some obviously bullshiat reason? If they did, were you free to go after minimal hassle? Has a car salesman or mechanic ever patronized you and then tried to add bullshiat to the price of the car you were buying or the repair work? There. White privilege and male privilege.

/seriously, last one for the night


Did you realize, in all of this, that I didn't read any of your posts?

It was fairly obvious you're as sane as a MADD member, and just as open to reason.

No ones buying so fark off.

No one is arguing the racism and sexism don't exist. We're just not buying your particular brand of social injustice cookie.

And I woulda grabbed a single quote but the mobile fark only let's you quote an entire post and doesn't allow selective quoting or quote editing. I scanned the Weeners and saw stock standard stuff. And didn't regard you as worthwhile after that. Note I never checked your profile and assume you are male. So my disregard of your opinion is based on the fact that you post like a waste of skin. Not sex/race/religion.
 
2012-08-08 08:48:54 AM  
It is me or some people think that sexual attraction and respect for a person are mutually exclusive? If i want to sleep with a woman, it means that my respect for her just evaporates? And that applies to the gender as a whole?

I'm not saying that sexism or women objectification are over or right, but sometimes the argument sounds like sexual attraction is wrong or evil.

As I said before, the DOA franchise is an OK fighting game and the fact that the main selling point is big boobed ladies in bikinis is proof that the game isn't that good on its own (or at least it hasn't done anything better than Tekken), and I admit that it can be tasteless to say the least. That doesn't mean that I didn't liked the game when I was a teenager, and doesn't mean that now I think that women are just blow job machines that also make sandwiches.

There IS shameful displays of sexism in the media. Still there is a lot of social and cultural prejudices that women have to overcome.

I just don't think that a group of bikini wearing martial artist (that could crush a skull with a roundhouse) is THAT high on the list of horrible cultural trends.
 
2012-08-08 10:37:01 AM  

vharshyde: Oh christ, when will you idiots realize that the games industry isn't shaping what the public wants, what the public wants is shaping what the games industry creates! Stop whining about how horrible it is to see a little bit of skin, you prude twits, and start realizing that they're creating something based on MARKET DEMAND. If you wanna blame anyone for jiggling boobs in video games? Blame the people that BUY THEM.


I'm guessing you've never been involved in the production process of a video game at a big developer, so I'll forgive your ignorance. The games industry does NOT make games that the "public wants." They make games that they THINK the public wants, based on results provided to them by marketing research firms. Unfortunately, that marketing research is tainted by the assumptions of the firm that creates it. In a lot of cases, the research groups go into the process with the assumption that most gamers are males in their late teens to early twenties. So, they poll a bunch of guys in that age range about what they like to see in games and, lo an behold, they get a lot of responses about MOAR BOOBS AND SPLOSIONS! So, they market the content of their games toward that demographic without ever bothering to find out what the rest of their customer base wants.

If you want an idea of what the overall gaming public actually wants in games, look at the most popular indie or small developer house game titles. The ones that come from game companies that are too small, poor, and/or smart to hire marketing research firms. They tend to have a better grasp on what the actual game-buying demographic wants. One thing you'll notice about the popular indie/small dev titles is that there isn't a whole lot of sexualization of characters, male or female. Games like Trine, Braid, and Minecraft are very popular, sell a whole lot of copies, and there's nary a jiggling boob in sight.
 
2012-08-08 10:42:23 AM  

vharshyde: Oh christ, when will you idiots realize that the games industry isn't shaping what the public wants, what the public wants is shaping what the games industry creates! Stop whining about how horrible it is to see a little bit of skin, you prude twits, and start realizing that they're creating something based on MARKET DEMAND. If you wanna blame anyone for jiggling boobs in video games? Blame the people that BUY THEM.


See above:

Theaetetus: The problem is when the video game industry is blind to the self-fulfilling prophecy they've created: "Only men buy video games, so we'll make video games that are only appealing to men, and hey look, only men buy video games!"
Make video games that you think only appeal to men, if you want. But don't try to pretend that you're only following the market, rather than helping create it.

 
2012-08-08 12:16:34 PM  

Lolthien: However, these messages compound on themselves.


What messages?

Just because an impressionable ignorant and underdeveloped mind may take something negative away from an experience does not mean that that experience should be eradicated or that a message is being delivered. Protesting the experience shouldn't be happening, as that connotates that NO ONE should have such experiences. It is rights limiting in nature.

Promoting education and development of the young to be able to handle any given experience is what should be concentrated on. kids get smarter, everyone wins. Sheltering them by restraining what adults can experience is exacerbating the problem, breeding ignorance, which is what leads to much of bigotry in the first place. In that sense, liberals who want X shut down, are acting contrary to their own stated desires.

DarkPascual: It is me or some people think that sexual attraction and respect for a person are mutually exclusive? If i want to sleep with a woman, it means that my respect for her just evaporates? And that applies to the gender as a whole?


Yes, there are nutjobs that feel that way. A bit too much projection for my tastes.

kroonermanblack: Note I never checked your profile and assume you are male.


Wouldn't help any, the pic looks like a young emo boy.

Teufelaffe: They make games that they THINK the public wants, based on results provided to them by marketing research firms.


That is the process, yes. When that game sells millions of copies, it turns out they were right and it is what the public wanted. Market analysis is just a tool they use to hedge bets on their gamble, to make it a less risky venture. There's a reason kumbaya around the campfire games don't sell well. You want a hippy game, Skyrim is about as close as you'll actually get, picking flowers and herbs.

Teufelaffe: without ever bothering to find out what the rest of their customer base wants.


It is not their job to please everyone, to shoot for outside the target demographic(which is their customer base, the reliable customers, outliers such as really old grandparents and feminist extremists are not part of that base, typically, or there would be games designed just for them, if there were any money in it...and there isn't). It is their job to make money after all.

Theaetetus: Theaetetus: The problem is when the video game industry is blind to the self-fulfilling prophecy they've created: "Only men buy video games, so we'll make video games that are only appealing to men, and hey look, only men buy video games!"


That's a false concept. By overwhelming majority, men are the staple players in shooter and fighting games. It's the subject matter of specific genre's that are populated by mostly males. The industry caters to them, just like it caters to younger kids with pokemon. An adult that plays pokemon, sure, whatever, it's an extra sale, but it's outside that reliable zone I talked about above. By and large, women aren't quite as much into what makes games sell well for men. Sure some are, but they're outliers, and some games do design around the knowledge that some will be playing that. Others don't, either because they don't care, or because they realize most adult women don't care that heavily about a bit of tit here and there.
_______________________

The conservative views masquerading as a liberal equal rights stance in this thread is astoundiing. Hide the boobs? You people are just as bad as Westboro Baptists or similar zealots, you even have common buttoned-up ground with them. Boobs in a video game do not cause earthquakes, nor deliver a message telling people what to think.

We should protect and educate our kids, not censor everything that's even a slight danger to a statistical insignificant amount of them, because we've already got the big dangers, and you guys are just taking it to an extreme. A very silly extreme which does nothing but further foster and nurture ignorance.

Most of the worst fark-ups I've seen in life were the sheltered kids. Homeschooled by very religious parents. That is what you people are after. Children that are not prepped for the vagaries of the real world that wind up getting into trouble because they were never taught to think for themselves, or rationally at all.
 
2012-08-08 12:51:49 PM  

omeganuepsilon: It is not their job to please everyone, to shoot for outside the target demographic(which is their customer base, the reliable customers, outliers such as really old grandparents and feminist extremists are not part of that base, typically, or there would be games designed just for them, if there were any money in it...and there isn't). It is their job to make money after all.


Average age of most frequent game purchasers: 41
Average age of most frequent game players: 37
Male/Female breakdown: 58%/42%
Source (pdf)

They're marketing these games to hetero male teenagers, when they should be marketing them to adults of both genders. That is their real demographic, but they're ignoring them for the very reasons I outlined in my earlier post. You say they're doing to this to make money, I say they're missing where the real money is.

Also, to be abundantly clear, I am NOT saying we should "hide the boobs." I'm saying that a good portion of the game industry still thinks the people that buy their games want nothing but boobs and explosions, which simply isn't the case. If you can, give me a good story, good gameplay, and some sexy, but if you have to skimp on one to do a good job on the other two, give me a good story and good gameplay first.
 
2012-08-08 02:02:21 PM  

Teufelaffe: Also, to be abundantly clear, I am NOT saying we should "hide the boobs." I'm saying that a good portion of the game industry still thinks the people that buy their games want nothing but boobs and explosions, which simply isn't the case.


My bad, easy to lose sight or precise stances in these threads.

Teufelaffe: Average age of most frequent game purchasers: 41
Average age of most frequent game players: 37
Male/Female breakdown: 58%/42%
Source (pdf)

They're marketing these games to hetero male teenagers, when they should be marketing them to adults of both genders.


There are some inherent problems with these statistics.

What composes a "game player"?(rhetorical)
Ages are skewed because kids don't typically buy their own games, it does happen, but not many adults playing pokemon.

In any given MMORPG, you've got that close to that male/female split, but other genre's have a larger divergence.

In the past few years more women have started playing more often these other genre's(shooters specifically, as is my anecdotal evidence). They are still a minority however.(haven't even turned on the xbox in the last 5 months or so, but was pretty avid till I got tired of the same-old same old, MW3 was good mechanic wise, but the maps are bland clones of eachother)

Specifically, why I have a problem with your post, is that DOA is a minor part of a small genre. Not all games have the boobs, and not all games are designed towards men specifically via similar themes. A shooter for instance, dwells more on mechanics, maybe similarity to modern military(though that's stretching the meaning of similarity maybe). That's not catering to males, that's catering to the subject matter, whoever is interested in the genre.

In the sub-genre of scantily clad fighters, the few games are geared to those who liked the previous editions, which have some age on them now, largely based off of similar anime.

You do seem bent on making it sound like the entire industry caters to a specific sex, and that's just not the case, they're focusing on their actual fans in a sense, their slice of the pie. Shooters continue to develop towards their fans desires[more weapons, more flexibility, better maps, etc](usually, Bungee kind of jumped ship on that one, the mechanics blew, IMO, they made the game THEY wanted, because, they could, numbers online plummeted with Reach), fighters with gimmick X continue to use that in their sequels. Zombie games concentrate on gore and inventive or novel ways to kill zombies. RPG's have an ever expanding sense of variety(in some ways, I found the clothing/armor choices in Skyrim very lacking compared to morrowind) and something for everyone to include limiting skin exposure.

Each game is shooting for a fairly precise demographic as it relates to "gamers" as a whole, and broad statistics are really irrelevant, especially in attempting to show (falsely) that are marketed solely to male teenagers. SOME games are arguably in that category, but that is still not their only goal. A lot of fighter game players are older now, a continuation of the same people that played the franchise since it began.

One could argue that the younger gamers are getting screwed, because a lot of the games are years and years old franchises, or games vying for that piece of the pie. They don't have the random variety of something new and different. The industry is set in it's ways when it comes to that, fewer and fewer new games start up, and those that succeed usually turn into a specific franchise, because they do, indeed, sell a product that people line up in droves for.

Sorry if that got tl:dr, but it's not quite as simple as some in the thread are trying to make it sound, including, in part, you. Trying to cover all bases in this.
 
2012-08-08 02:08:10 PM  

omeganuepsilon: Lolthien: However, these messages compound on themselves.

What messages?

Just because an impressionable ignorant and underdeveloped mind may take something negative away from an experience does not mean that that experience should be eradicated or that a message is being delivered. Protesting the experience shouldn't be happening, as that connotates that NO ONE should have such experiences. It is rights limiting in nature.

Promoting education and development of the young to be able to handle any given experience is what should be concentrated on. kids get smarter, everyone wins. Sheltering them by restraining what adults can experience is exacerbating the problem, breeding ignorance, which is what leads to much of bigotry in the first place. In that sense, liberals who want X shut down, are acting contrary to their own stated desires.

...


I believe I mentioned in a previous post that I agree, censorship is NOT the answer. I do not suggest a course of future action. I am stating, as simply as possible, that these games DO affect people. There are studies upon studies upon studies that present evidence for that fact.

I was disputing your assertion that: " Keizer_Ghidorah: It's a video game. Video games do not influence people. If they did, millions of kids would have been jumping on people's heads and throwing turtles at things back in 1985, or running as fast as they can and rolling into balls to slam against cars back in 1991.

Pixel women with huge ta-tas don't cause misogyny any more than pixel guns shooting pixel bullets at pixel monsters causes gun violence. If you're unable to distinguish fantasy from reality, it's not the fault of game makers, movie producers, or television CEOs.
"

That statement is demonstrably untrue.
 
2012-08-08 02:23:23 PM  

omeganuepsilon: That's a false concept... Others don't, either because they don't care...


So it's not a false concept. Glad you agree. Probably should've started with that, rather than contradicting yourself.

By overwhelming majority, men are the staple players in shooter and fighting games.

(i) You have a citation or statistics for "overwhelming majority" or is this one of those "everybody knows it, we don't need actual data" things?
(ii) Even if true, that doesn't in any way disagree with what I said. The fact that you don't understand that is probably why you contradicted yourself and agreed with me. As noted above, it's a self-fulfilling prophesy: we assume women don't play games, so therefore we will design games that don't appeal to women, and then we're surprised when women don't play our games. The mistake they - and you - are making is in believing that this is somehow innate or inherent to gender, without any evidence for that. It's the same sort of pseudoscience that evolutionary psychologists fall into.
 
2012-08-08 02:25:56 PM  

omeganuepsilon: it's not quite as simple as some in the thread are trying to make it sound


Exactly. See, e.g.:

omeganuepsilon: By and large, women aren't quite as much into what makes games sell well for men

 
2012-08-08 02:39:18 PM  

Lolthien: Keizer_Ghidorah: Lolthien: Keizer_Ghidorah: It's a video game. Video games do not influence people. ...

Forgive me for not making the mental vault from "a Burger King commercial makes you hungry for fries" to "playing a video game where the women are scantily-clad turns you into a women-hating misogynist". Especially when the same tire dold bullshiat gets trotted out with every single popular trend that's occured for the last few decades. It's time we stopped blaming people's misbehaviors on what's popular and focus on the people themselves. A person doesn't turn into a women-hating psycho from playing a couple of video games, he already had an existing problem.

I tend to agree that video games won't make someone a psycho who was well-adjusted prior. However, these messages compound on themselves. If every game (I exaggerate for effect here) a young man plays show women as vapid sex machines then eventually that will color his impression of women in general. It may not make him a psycho.. but it might make him less likely to stand up when an actual woman-hating psycho starts getting all misogynisty.

Enough people don't say anything, and in a few years it's not nearly as socially unacceptable.

And what about girls playing these games. Body issues and self-esteem issues cannot help but be affected by popular media (which is the point I was getting at about advertising: advertising makes you feel inadequate unless you buy whatever they're hawking). Girls will start to see these depictions of women as 'what guys want' and naturally adjust a tiny bit over a long period of time. It plays both ways.

Now my previous comment may be hopelessly overestimating the level of discourse in a Fark thread, but still... Video games don't turn people into monsters, I agree. But in the absence of strong role models for any particular individual, media (video games included) will take the place of those role models... and that's how you change a society.


If people are so fundamentally weak-willed and impressionable that video games can tell them how to think and act and view others, then the problem is far worse than previously thought, and most of it has nothing to do with video games.

If women become so stressed out about not being able to have the impossible figures portrayed by Barbie dolls and Lara Croft, or men become angry and misogynist because of it, the root problem is a lack of ability to separate fiction from reality, which is either a fundamental cognitive malfunction or a lack of being taught this difference by their parents or other adults. The same for someone who shoots up green-blooded alien snipers in a video game and thinks "This would be AWESOME to do at my school!", though far darker things are likely at work too.

I know personal stories are the least regarded, but I'll offer my life story. I've played video games since 1985. Never once have I entertained the idea to jump on people's heads and throw turtles at things. I played pretend about being able to throw mind-created fireballs, but I've never seriously considered it possible. When I look at the figures of fighting game hunks and babes I think that they look hot and sexy, but I don't look at real people with disgust for not looking like game people, nor do I blame them in any way for not trying to look like them. I've never played Halo or Castle Wolfenstein and then had the urge to try it for real at my school or mall, because I know the difference between fiction and reality, have empathy for my fellow humans, and know what the consequences would be.
 
2012-08-08 02:57:20 PM  

twat_waffle: Why in the hell would you be turned on by seeing a woman who, in reality simply cannot exist without extensive cosmetic surgery? Are you attracted to women like this:

[sitchnews.com image 640x360]



Why yes I am attracted to women like that. Don't really care why. If anything, her willingness to go the extra mile for beauty speaks well of her as a person.

Where can I find more pictures of this lovely young lady?
 
2012-08-08 03:00:48 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: Lolthien: Keizer_Ghidorah: Lolthien: Keizer_Ghidorah:
If people are so fundamentally weak-willed and impressionable that video games can tell them how to think and act and view others, then the problem is far worse than previously thought, and most of it has nothing to do with video games.

If women become so stressed out about not being able to have the impossible figures portrayed by Barbie dolls and Lara Croft, or men become angry and misogynist because of it, the root problem is a lack of ability to separate fiction from reality, which is either a fundamental cognitive malfunction or a lack of being taught this difference by their parents or other adults. The same for someone who shoots up green-blooded alien snipers in a video game and thinks "This would be AWESOME to do at my school!", though far darker things are likely at work too.

I know personal stories are the least regarded, but I'll offer my life story. I've played video games since 1985. Never once have I entertained the idea to jump on people's heads and throw turtles at things. I played pretend about being able to throw mind-created fireballs, but I've never seriously considered it possible. When I look at the figures of fighting game hunks and babes I think that they look hot and sexy, but I don't look at real people with disgust for not looking like game people, nor do I blame them in any way for not trying to look like them. I've never played Halo or Castle Wolfenstein and then had the urge to try it for real at my school or mall, because I know the difference between fiction and reality, have empathy for my fellow humans, and know what the consequences would be.


I do not disagree, and I've been playing games just as long or longer myself. The extremists who shoot up their school or get 17 plastic surgeries in a single day obviously have serious mental health issues and should not be taken as purely the product of their chosen entertainment. But to suggest that pervasive national media has no affect on the national mores and norms in America just seems ridiculously naive to me. As media tries to push the limits, society tends to follow suit and the next 'shocking' thing has to up the ante, etc etc.

Control the message, control the conversation and you control the culture... that is Propaganda 101 for the last thousands of years. And never has there been a more efficient means of distributing the message than current electronic media.
 
2012-08-08 03:05:56 PM  

omeganuepsilon: Teufelaffe: ***snip***


To reinforce your point with actual statistics:

Best Selling Games of 2000-2009 Publisher Platform Debut Sales (Millions)
1 Wii Sports Nintendo Wii Nov-06 58.40
2 Wii Play Nintendo Wii Dec-06 26.53
3 Nintendogs Nintendo DS Apr-05 23.43
4 Wii Fit Nintendo Wii Dec-07 22.50
5 New Super Mario Bros DS Nintendo DS May-06 20.92
6 Mario Kart Wii Nintendo Wii Apr-08 20.71
7 Brain Age Nintendo DS May-05 18.73
8 Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas Take Two PS2 Oct-04 18.15
9 Pokemon Gold/Silver Nintendo GB Nov-99 18.02
10 Pokemon Diamond/Pearl Nintendo DS Sep-06 17.35


From Here

I highlighted the only game on there that could be considered exploitative in gameplay, plot, or characterization. If you go to the full 50 list in the link, I count 4, maybe 5 games (GTA 4 shows up more than once as the list breaks out different platforms) that could have this type of content (I have not played all of the games on the list).

Arguing that exploitative games are popular because they cater to a low denominator simply isn't true. They aren't that popular. Does that mean that there is no problem? No, it just means that the attitudes and tastes of the market are shifting to a greater appreciation of the games. If DOA sucked as a game, no amount of T&A pandering would make it popular.
 
2012-08-08 04:53:53 PM  
Too much to reply to... Anyhow, I'm not saying that sex is wrong, or that sexual attraction is wrong. I'm not even saying that it's wrong to enjoy looking at women. So all of you people who are trying to build straw men in my field, kindly stop doing so. I'm saying that unrealistic and unhealthy depictions of women are wrong because they are degrading and objectifying. I've played the DoA games. I didn't think that they were anything special. They wouldn't be anything special except for the jiggling tits. To me, that is exploitative.

Also, it's not only the fault of the developers. The developers are responsible for the product they put out, but the people who buy this shiat are responsible for making the choice to support misogyny. Their parents, if they are not adults, also bear equal responsibility. Just like people who eat at Chick-Fil-A, knowing that CFA donates to hate groups, are responsible for funding hate groups.

kroonermanblack: Did you realize, in all of this, that I didn't read any of your posts?

It was fairly obvious you're as sane as a MADD member, and just as open to reason.

No ones buying so fark off.

No one is arguing the racism and sexism don't exist. We're just not buying your particular brand of social injustice cookie.

And I woulda grabbed a single quote but the mobile fark only let's you quote an entire post and doesn't allow selective quoting or quote editing. I scanned the Weeners and saw stock standard stuff. And didn't regard you as worthwhile after that. Note I never checked your profile and assume you are male. So my disregard of your opinion is based on the fact that you post like a waste of skin. Not sex/race/religion.


If you didn't read my posts, why are you responding?

Oh, and you've just been Farkied as "Guy who says 'get a life' on the Internet," since you just said something equally stupid. Congrats.
 
2012-08-08 05:09:13 PM  

twat_waffle: omeganuepsilon: twat_waffle: omeganuepsilon: Yeah, Poe's Law got over-run. Typically only a genuine zealot replies with such fervor and obsession, not to mention all the verbal obsfucation and irrational tie-ins to racism and whatever other tricks he/she/it thinks it's being clever with. I bet he/she/it would love Micheal Moore.

Michael Moore is a joke.

Bigotry is bigotry, whether it takes the form of racism, misogyny, homophobia or anything else. One form of bigotry is comparable to another. Why do you think the gay rights movement draws parallels to the civil rights movement?

This shiat bothers me because I have to deal with it. Most men who have been in relationships have dealt with it at one point or another.

Selling a beautiful(disclaimer: eye of the beholder) image to one who will appreciate it is not bigotry, does not teach or propagate bigotry.
Even your black face examples, haven't you seen Ghost World with the bit about Coons Chicken?
It is a service, on par with paying a landscaper to sculpt your garden, or a painter to do a mural of a sunset.

Shouldn't you be out picketing a Hooters or something?

/really bad feminists always remind me of Lexx
//the badly made propaganda video of an "ideal" woman represented by a lumpy potato and straggly carrots for legs
///Link

It is bigotry to portray women in such an overly sexualized and degrading manner. Some people appreciate lawn jockeys. That doesn't make them any less racist. You are, of course, free to consume such imagery, and I am free to point out how it degrades and objectifies women. If you need help understanding why such imagery is degrading, here you go (NSFW images).

I don't picket. I also don't eat at Hooters. I try not to patronize businesses whose policies and practices I don't agree with.


My problem with this whole discussion is the fact that instead of you know getting rid of the sexual and degrading portrayals and giving even better more varied examples of good portrayals, you seem to be ignoring the idea that it's okay to degrade men and boys because they did it first and for so long and that makes it fair to let it go. The best way to get out of these mindsets is to you know be the example and realize that 1. Nothing is EVER going to be perfect and 2. If you want something changed get a group of people together and provide assistance to the "ignorant" game developers who don't seem to get it and give the hints and ideas that you like and such. Then if they ignore your advice and go further down the slope you can have an excuse that nothing you try works or has any effect and then you'll have others sympathy to what you are trying to do.
 
2012-08-08 06:21:24 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: If people are so fundamentally weak-willed and impressionable that video games can tell them how to think and act and view others, then the problem is far worse than previously thought, and most of it has nothing to do with video games.


Instead of replying to the extremists who are raping the entire list of logical phallacies, I'll side with you with a big THIS.
Despite us arguing heatedly in some other threads, fyi for our conspiracy theorists... It's not some bro-down / good old boy scenerio, far from it.

The games aren't attempting to teach people things, it's people being impressionable. There is no reason to limit what people, who are NOT flawed in that manner, can do because others are susceptible. There is no need to sanitize videogames, movies, or TV, OR burn books.(yeah, I went there) There is no need to make everyone wear a protective bicycle helmet because a few are prone to have soft skulls or bang their heads on shiat.

Good parenting goes a long ways to keeping "bad" idea's out of the hands of children, so to speak. That's what the whole ratings system is supposed to be in place for. May not work well, but that's the price we pay for not educating people to be good parents.

Child-proofing the entire planet, not so much of an easy or even accomplish-able task, as retarded/ignorant children, and even adults, left unchecked, can and will do monsterous things.

Arbitrarily not liking an image and deeming it "unhealthy" is a trick reserved for religious leaders. That is probably why Keiser and I agree here. It's eerily similar to a moral/religious argument MUCH more so than anything based on actual science.
(unless you mean "based" as in book to movie transitions where the content of the books is pillaged, IE Starship Troopers, anything by Stephen King, and thousands of others, then yeah, their arguments are "based" on science, with liberal application of re-writes and falsehoods to attempt to sound like they make sense but really end up more like LOST, the proverbial shock and awe campaign of pixie dust and fuzzy feelings).

People do stupid shiat all the time, some take it to an extreme. Maybe they picked up something from a game or movie, but it is not the artist's fault the guy is farked in the head. Batman is not responsible for the colorado shooter, genetics or drugs or abuse/trauma are the root cause.

Same for racists and bigots and serious assholes of any flavor(Including My ,and Keiser's, opposition in this thread). We don't focus on teaching people what's not to be done in real life, we focus on not letting anyone have enough exposure so that no one has any idea what they're not supposed to do in real life?

I wonder what messed them up, genetics, trauma, or drugs? A combination of them all?

TL:dr I know. They can suck it(if they didn't loath it's very existance).
 
2012-08-08 06:48:00 PM  

Teufelaffe: omeganuepsilon: It is not their job to please everyone, to shoot for outside the target demographic(which is their customer base, the reliable customers, outliers such as really old grandparents and feminist extremists are not part of that base, typically, or there would be games designed just for them, if there were any money in it...and there isn't). It is their job to make money after all.

Average age of most frequent game purchasers: 41
Average age of most frequent game players: 37
Male/Female breakdown: 58%/42%
Source (pdf)

They're marketing these games to hetero male teenagers, when they should be marketing them to adults of both genders. That is their real demographic, but they're ignoring them for the very reasons I outlined in my earlier post. You say they're doing to this to make money, I say they're missing where the real money is.

Also, to be abundantly clear, I am NOT saying we should "hide the boobs." I'm saying that a good portion of the game industry still thinks the people that buy their games want nothing but boobs and explosions, which simply isn't the case. If you can, give me a good story, good gameplay, and some sexy, but if you have to skimp on one to do a good job on the other two, give me a good story and good gameplay first.


My first issue with those numbers is that they make no distinction between types of games. Console games vs. PC games have a different audience, and even on the PC, there is a difference between playing WoW, murderdeathrape3000, and the latest Zynga flash ripoff on Facebook or Newgrounds. It also did not (that I saw) distiniguish length of play, which means that any person EVER playing a game, for a minute or two, goes into the data 'as a player' of equal, uh, playingness, of a hardcore 23 hour a day raider.

You're going to be hard pressed to convince me that, despite the misleading data, a 40 year old woman is playing CoD on the Xbox. Which according to your data should be well over 1/3 of the people playing it (nothing significant about the 1/3, just a random large percentile).

You are taking this data and making it say that everyone plays things equally. That's pretty patently untrue. My mother plays the $#%@ out of free download flash puzzle games. She's got no interest in console games of any type, or any action/adventure/shooter/etc. games. Certain genres are dominated by, and targetted at because of this domination, certain audiences. More people than ever may be playing games, and women are certainly playing in larger numbers than before, but it's disingenious at best to say the playing distribution is even across all games.
 
2012-08-08 07:00:08 PM  

MinatoArisato013: My problem with this whole discussion is the fact that instead of you know getting rid of the sexual and degrading portrayals and giving even better more varied examples of good portrayals, you seem to be ignoring the idea that it's okay to degrade men and boys because they did it first and for so long and that makes it fair to let it go. The best way to get out of these mindsets is to you know be the example and realize that 1. Nothing is EVER going to be perfect and 2. If you want something changed get a group of people together and provide assistance to the "ignorant" game developers who don't seem to get it and give the hints and ideas that you like and such. Then if they ignore your advice and go further down the slope you can have an excuse that nothing you try works or has any effect and then you'll have others sympathy to what you are trying to do.


The "plight" of men in Western society is completely different than the plight of women. The rules are therefore different. Just like the rules are different for white people than they are for historically oppressed minorities. That's just the way it works. See my example about the "N-word."

Game developers have all the assistance they need. They have access to demographic information, which developers of games like DoA ignore. The only thing that will change their minds is if people stop buying games that have objectionable material.

omeganuepsilon: Instead of replying to the extremists who are raping the entire list of logical phallacies, I'll side with you with a big THIS.
Despite us arguing heatedly in some other threads, fyi for our conspiracy theorists... It's not some bro-down / good old boy scenerio, far from it.

The games aren't attempting to teach people things, it's people being impressionable. There is no reason to limit what people, who are NOT flawed in that manner, can do because others are susceptible. There is no need to sanitize videogames, movies, or TV, OR burn books.(yeah, I went there) There is no need to make everyone wear a protective bicycle helmet because a few are prone to have soft skulls or bang their heads on shiat.

Good parenting goes a long ways to keeping "bad" idea's out of the hands of children, so to speak. That's what the whole ratings system is supposed to be in place for. May not work well, but that's the price we pay for not educating people to be good parents.

Child-proofing the entire planet, not so much of an easy or even accomplish-able task, as retarded/ignorant children, and even adults, left unchecked, can and will do monsterous things.

Arbitrarily not liking an image and deeming it "unhealthy" is a trick reserved for religious leaders. That is probably why Keiser and I agree here. It's eerily similar to a moral/religious argument MUCH more so than anything based on actual science.
(unless you mean "based" as in book to movie transitions where the content of the books is pillaged, IE Starship Troopers, anything by Stephen King, and thousands of others, then yeah, their arguments are "based" on science, with liberal application of re-writes and falsehoods to attempt to sound like they make sense but really end up more like LOST, the proverbial shock and awe campaign of pixie dust and fuzzy feelings).

People do stupid shiat all the time, some take it to an extreme. Maybe they picked up something from a game or movie, but it is not the artist's fault t ...


It's an issue of culture, and no one is saying that objectionable material should be banned. I'm just attaching a negative label to it because I perceive it as having earned that negative label. Anyone who wants to is still free to consume said material, so long as it is available. Companies and individuals are free to distribute said material, so long as there is an audience. All this talk about "protecting" people is a straw man, because no one in this thread has seriously advocated for that.
 
2012-08-08 07:37:21 PM  

Lolthien: Keizer_Ghidorah: Lolthien: Keizer_Ghidorah: Lolthien: Keizer_Ghidorah:
If people are so fundamentally weak-willed and impressionable that video games can tell them how to think and act and view others, then the problem is far worse than previously thought, and most of it has nothing to do with video games.

If women become so stressed out about not being able to have the impossible figures portrayed by Barbie dolls and Lara Croft, or men become angry and misogynist because of it, the root problem is a lack of ability to separate fiction from reality, which is either a fundamental cognitive malfunction or a lack of being taught this difference by their parents or other adults. The same for someone who shoots up green-blooded alien snipers in a video game and thinks "This would be AWESOME to do at my school!", though far darker things are likely at work too.

I know personal stories are the least regarded, but I'll offer my life story. I've played video games since 1985. Never once have I entertained the idea to jump on people's heads and throw turtles at things. I played pretend about being able to throw mind-created fireballs, but I've never seriously considered it possible. When I look at the figures of fighting game hunks and babes I think that they look hot and sexy, but I don't look at real people with disgust for not looking like game people, nor do I blame them in any way for not trying to look like them. I've never played Halo or Castle Wolfenstein and then had the urge to try it for real at my school or mall, because I know the difference between fiction and reality, have empathy for my fellow humans, and know what the consequences would be.

I do not disagree, and I've been playing games just as long or longer myself. The extremists who shoot up their school or get 17 plastic surgeries in a single day obviously have serious mental health issues and should not be taken as purely the product of their chosen entertainment. But to suggest that pervasive nation ...


Somehow I doubt that society is going towards a "Misogynism is cool and trendy! Hate and degrade women now!" mentality (unless you're Republican) because the media shows good-looking people and video games have impossibly-hot characters. People generally prefer to look at things that are pleasing to them, which is why kittens and hummingbirds sell more posters and calenders than hyenas and sawfish, as an example. It doesn't mean that they necessarily hate hyenas and sawfish or see them as less than something else, they're just not as attracted to them.

Now, I will say that there are more and more "companies" popping up telling people how hot and sexy they can be by sending them $49.95 for their new miracle product, but that's been going on since the days of radio, and it's mostly as money-grabbing sliminess, not as a serious look at how society as a whole feels.

Also, imagine someone seeing a commercial for Burger King's newest burger and instead of saying "Mmmmmm, that commercial made me hungry, let's go to Burger King!", he said "Man that's a good-looking burger, why can't all burgers look like that? I hate all burgers that aren't this one and I'm going to treat them horribly!". That's what people apparently think video games, comic books, and TV does when it shows attractive women.
 
2012-08-08 08:11:22 PM  

twat_waffle: All this talk about "protecting" people is a straw man, because no one in this thread has seriously advocated for that.


Not literally spelled it out no, but you are implying it.

twat_waffle: The media's portrayal of women gives a lot of women body image issues. This is a problem.


You want the change to happen, otherwise it wouldn't be a "problem".

Sidestepping the backwards argument of "Media gives unavoidable commands"

More:

twat_waffle: Women have body image issues because the media says that this:
or this:
is attractive. Women should not be uncomfortable with how their bodies look if they are healthy. Video games like DoA are a large part of the problem here.


A more direct example of this is wrong and shouldn't happen, you even suggest intervention....for masturbation...?

twat_waffle: Lanadapter: According to twat waffle, lonely teenage boys fapping is bigotry now.

[the rest of lanadapter's post snipped}

Teenage boys don't know any better, and their parents should probably intervene and teach them about respecting women. Game designers are supposed to be adults, therefore they should know better.

Most women get their body image issues from women's magazines like Cosmo. DoA, Maxim, and shiat like that objectifies women and reinforces disrespecting them.


You even suggest action when it comes to kids...as if a good fap is an immoral act. Even aside from that, you keep talking about problems, and how society shouldn't be that way. That is a quite clear implication of my former claims. You want what you percieve as abhorrent problems to go away, hell, we all want problems to go away. That's part and parcel with creating prohibition of said "bad" things.

But yeah, total strawman.

You're the one with the straw man fetish. This cartoon is degrading? How so? You have yet to define that point. To all of us it still looks like an arbitrary decision.

Men, and plenty of women, like to look at tits. Why is it wrong for something to be exaggerated in art? What do you really have against charicatures? We don't all view politicians as badly drawn a newspaper, no mattter how many of them we see. We don't go around expecting to put silly putty on them and stretching them into funny faces.

It's almost as if you think any form of cartoon is blasphemy, as much as you're insisting on referencing those specific styles of mediums. I see you didn't take my advice and go threadshiat on the "heathens" in the underwear thread. Scared? Afraid the "heathens" will tear your arguments to shreds, women and men alike?
Newsflash, all those things you keep calling negative, are adored by a large number of women as well, straight and gay alike.

Ficticious art of supposed women is not degrading. There is no subject to degrade, except some self imagined portrait of women that you hold up as an ideal, and even that is an imagined slight. To those of us that are sane, it is merely lighthearted entertainment. The wiki you linked stated that it's treatment of real people in a degrading manner that is wrong, and I can even agree with the wiki.

Inanimate objects cannot be degraded / insulted, etc.

Anyway, I've said most of that before but you're choosing to not read it.

twat_waffle: In fact, Halo is about the only game I can think of that was good despite the sexism in the game.


Sexism in Halo? This ought to be good. Please do tell us where this sexism is.
Difficulty: no lying

/former Halo nut
 
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