Special J: ManateeGag: is DoA5 a fighting games, or just a useless jigglefest? if I want to see boobies, I have the Internet I can search through.

It's a jigglefest disguised as a mediocre fighter. Stick with your internets.

Mediocre? DoA has one of the deepest, most intuitive grapple, throw, and combo systems out of any fighting game, and certainly one of the best in the 3d fighting game genre. Add to that gorgeous level design, iconic character design, and an engaging if typically light story and you get something far from mediocre.

Starry Heavens: I would be stunned if that that were illegal in the US. It is officially frowned upon to turn a flag into clothing or display it improperly, but I don't think there is any law you could be prosecuted under for doing so.

yes and no!

It is actually illegal under flag code, but poor taste is apparently covered under the first amendment and there is no punishment to violating the flag code.

I know for sure though, that there are places in the world that specifically do not allow the burning of nations flags.

Heron: But DoA doesn't do that. The female characters in the have some of the deepest, most complex fighting styles(Helena) and are some of the most powerful (Christie) in the game. Is there plentiful fan-service in DoA? Certainly, but the argument that it trades in tropes of female weakness, uselessness, and vapidity is off-base. Even the storylines for the game are primarily ones of women overcoming powerful male foes to accomplish their objectives: Kasumi destroying DoACorp's clone project; Helena wresting control of her mother's company back from her deranged, evil father while dodging assassination attempts; Tina proving she's a better wrestler than her father; Ayame settling accounts with her demon-possessed father by putting him down, and Leifang proving to Jann Lee that she's his equal by kicking his ass in a fighting tournament. The obsession with fathers and romantic partners is admittedly not terribly progressive, but neither is it misogynistic. The DoA beach volleyball game may be a thin excuse for a dress-up ooglefest, but DoA the fighting game has more to it than just women in skimpy outfits.

I'd like to hear your analysis of how Queens Blade is not misogynistic.

Man, just look at Terra the mmo for 'not helping' videos.

All of the females fight in g-strings or thongs. And don't wear more than a few inches of cloth anywhere else.

DOA I've never enjoyed. But I'm not a fighter person.

fluffy2097: Starry Heavens: I would be stunned if that that were illegal in the US. It is officially frowned upon to turn a flag into clothing or display it improperly, but I don't think there is any law you could be prosecuted under for doing so.

yes and no!

It is actually illegal under flag code, but poor taste is apparently covered under the first amendment and there is no punishment to violating the flag code.

I know for sure though, that there are places in the world that specifically do not allow the burning of nations flags.

I love my country so much that Imma gonna wear the flag like a shirt.

I think I'm bothered less by the blatant T&A and more by the horribly outdated mid-90s bikini designs. The fashion world has moved on, someone tell Team Ninja.

Heron: Mediocre? DoA has one of the deepest, most intuitive grapple, throw, and combo systems out of any fighting game, and certainly one of the best in the 3d fighting game genre. Add to that gorgeous level design, iconic character design, and an engaging if typically light story and you get something far from mediocre.

I wouldn't exactly call its combo system great, but the grapple, throw and counter mechanics are fantastic. Plus, the fact you have to pay attention to the stage and what you're doing beyond "avoid a ring-out" is a huge bonus. 2 and 3 were great fighting games, but 4 when they made the counter window a bit too wide open kind of killed the enjoyment.

Then again, SCIV had that same stupid issue when they introduced just impacts, then made guard impacting have such a wide opportunity window that blocking was just silly. That (and Ivy's nerfage) turned me off so much especially after SCIII I haven't even played V yet nor have the desire.

Both game series degenerated into "shiatty mechanics underlying T&A" and I largely lost interest. I'm okay with eye candy in a good fighting game, but a game that's nothing but eye candy I want nothing to do with.

Yuri Futanari: roc6783: Wolf892: Yuri Futanari: Vegan Meat Popsicle: ***snip***

Why do you get bites EVERY SINGLE TIME??? Seriously, it's like no one has ever read a thread in which you have ever posted.

I'm wondering myself. I think I need to start being even more obvious. 2012-08-07 02:54:27 PM

geek_mars: Yuri Futanari: Vegan Meat Popsicle: "Misogyny, sex, senseless violence and crude humor sells entertainment products to certain segments of the population, more at 11".

If you don't like it, don't buy it, but can we please stop pretending that it's not perfectly normal for human beings to at least occasionally enjoy guilty pleasures that aren't 100% healthy or politically correct?

This is the attitude which is destroying our culture. There ARE things that are deviant, perverse, and not wholesome. These things should be purged and people who view them exiled, or at least make their "hobbies" public so they go into seclusion and won't taint our culture anymore than they already have.

This is not a popular view, many Farkers will probably take issue with my stance, but just look at the world around you and see all the sin and sickness. Pornography, sexualized media, masturbation, even some of the more violent and vulgur music (ICP) has a direct correlation to our societal well-being. It didn't used to be like this, and it doesn't have to be.

I'll take your flames now.

Curious as to whether or not you were trolling, I checked your profile. I GIS'd your name (don't worry, I'm not at work), reread the first couple of lines of your post and confirmed that you are, in fact, a troll. If you're at all interested in being a successful troll, you might want to consider an alt whose name, when GIS'd, doesn't lead to hermaphroditic hentai. Just sayin'. 2012-08-07 02:59:35 PM

Looks like crap marketed to 400 pound virgins.

fluffy2097: Starry Heavens: I would be stunned if that that were illegal in the US. It is officially frowned upon to turn a flag into clothing or display it improperly, but I don't think there is any law you could be prosecuted under for doing so.

yes and no!

It is actually illegal under flag code, but poor taste is apparently covered under the first amendment and there is no punishment to violating the flag code.

I know for sure though, that there are places in the world that specifically do not allow the burning of nations flags.

It seems I was wrong! I reviewed the U.S. flag code, and while the penalties it describes are only valid in D.C., there is another section that states, "Whoever knowingly mutilates, defaces, physically defiles, burns, maintains on the floor or ground, or tramples upon any flag of the United States shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both." So, there are actually some theoretical teeth to it; I didn't know that.

I also completely believe that about other countries' laws.

Russky: Looks like crap marketed to 400 pound virgins.

Soooooo, it's now Farks official video game?

Starry Heavens: It seems I was wrong! I reviewed the U.S. flag code, and while the penalties it describes are only valid in D.C., there is another section that states, "Whoever knowingly mutilates, defaces, physically defiles, burns, maintains on the floor or ground, or tramples upon any flag of the United States shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both." So, there are actually some theoretical teeth to it; I didn't know that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._Johnson

Honestly? Always thought that DOA is a passable rent.

The game overall always had a pretty solid combat system and very interesting movesets if you don´t mind the similitudes with Tekken (I don´t, but always have been a Street Fighter guy). It is an OK fighting game with a nice added value, IMO.

/Yeah, if you don´t like it, don´t buy it...

moof: Starry Heavens: It seems I was wrong! I reviewed the U.S. flag code, and while the penalties it describes are only valid in D.C., there is another section that states, "Whoever knowingly mutilates, defaces, physically defiles, burns, maintains on the floor or ground, or tramples upon any flag of the United States shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both." So, there are actually some theoretical teeth to it; I didn't know that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._Johnson

That, I think, raises the question of whether dressing a video game character in a wrong-orientation flag bikini has "an intent to convey a particularized message [...], and [whether] the likelihood was great that the message would be understood by those who viewed it." It seems to me that if the creators of the game purposefully dressed her that way to insult American patriotism and hyper-sexualization of violence, they would be safe, but if they did it negligently, they might be in trouble.

That is assuming, of course, that the flag code applies to digital representations of the flag, which seems debatable under current precedent.

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Lanadapter: Since when is attraction to good feminine looks Misogyny?

I have never heard a woman wanting to look at a hot guy called a misandrist, so why would a guy wanting to look at hot girls be misogyny?

It's a matter of objectification and scope. You have a substantially weaker defense against the misogyny attack when the point of the characters starts to become looking at their bouncy boobies and you're working in an industry that seems to be hellbent on doing this with nearly every female character in everything it produces.

The video game industry thinks women are nothing but T&A because they've been successful selling to male video game players who believe that women are nothing but T&A. The fact that so many video gamers are uncouth anthropological throwbacks, however, should hardly be news to anybody and it's hardly limited to their views on women and I'm getting tired of people throwing a hissy fit every single time a character is rendered with large breasts.

It sells. It's not going away because some people just don't have very developed intellects or social graces. Get the hell over it. It's not like the majority of the people who'd pay extra to add swimsuit models to a fighting game are going to be stumbling out of the basement long enough for them to (poorly) interact with you in public anyway.

/ plus, it's not like male characters are generally rendered with a particularly healthy body image either
// no, really, my shoulders are totally as wide as a school bus and my biceps are as big my head... yea, that's perfectly normal....





See also: the Fallout games, the Elder Scrolls games

I'm not saying that misogyny doesn't exist in some video games. It has been my experience that the games that have the worst misogyny are also the ones with the fewest redeeming qualities (the DoA series, for example). In fact, Halo is about the only game I can think of that was good despite the sexism in the game.



Anyhow, games like the DoA series are abhorrent. I believe that, as a society, we are moving to a place where admitting to liking those games will be akin to admitting that you are a member of the Klan or that you are a member of Stormfront.

/the next problem that video games need to overcome is racism
//I'm looking at you, Mass Effect

Theaetetus: Doesn't apply... 18 USC 700 et seq. are specific to government property. You can be fined or imprisoned for defacing a flag of the United States - i.e. one that is owned by the United States - but cannot be fined or imprisoned for defacing your own U.S. flag.

I love your legal arguments, even as I am continually skeptical about their validity. I'll look into that when I have the chance.

It's a video game. Video games do not influence people. If they did, millions of kids would have been jumping on people's heads and throwing turtles at things back in 1985, or running as fast as they can and rolling into balls to slam against cars back in 1991.

Pixel women with huge ta-tas don't cause misogyny any more than pixel guns shooting pixel bullets at pixel monsters causes gun violence. If you're unable to distinguish fantasy from reality, it's not the fault of game makers, movie producers, or television CEOs.

It's amazing that after six decades we're still attacking recreational activities as the causes of every ill under the sun.

Keizer_Ghidorah: It's a video game. Video games do not influence people. If they did, millions of kids would have been jumping on people's heads and throwing turtles at things back in 1985, or running as fast as they can and rolling into balls to slam against cars back in 1991.

Pixel women with huge ta-tas don't cause misogyny any more than pixel guns shooting pixel bullets at pixel monsters causes gun violence. If you're unable to distinguish fantasy from reality, it's not the fault of game makers, movie producers, or television CEOs.

It's amazing that after six decades we're still attacking recreational activities as the causes of every ill under the sun.

If you believe this, you are hopelessly naive.

I agree, media shouldn't be censored. And I'm an avid gamer myself, but to suggest that video games aren't AT LEAST as capable of influencing people as television or print media (which is the basis of all the billions of advertising dollars spent each MONTH) shows that you really don't understand how the real world works.

Unless of course you're trolling. In that case: Bravo.

I have the regular copy pre-ordered since you could pay for it in full at NewEgg a few days ago for like 46 dollars. I've enjoyed the DOA games since the original on the Playstation because I thought the fighting engine was fun although the AI was exceptionally cheap with counter holds in DOA2...

On a side note, I'd like to see Tina return to her original design with brown hair. Her "I'M AN AMERICAN" thing has been getting old.

scottydoesntknow: twat_waffle: /the next problem that video games need to overcome is racism
//I'm looking at you, Mass Effect

Are you talking about the speciesism that's a central point of the game, or the dumbass idea to have the only black male romance-able character in ME2 also be the only character to actually leave you in ME3 and knock up a random white chick in the process?

The dumbass idea for the black male romance option. I mean, they may not have meant anything by it, but it does reinforce certain current negative stereotypes about black males. I have no problem with the speciesism, because that is something that could actually be an issue when and if humanity develops the ability to travel to other planetary systems.

It was bad enough that feminists and such complain about everything, now people tired of hearing feminists(or whoever) are complaining and trying to get crap shut down too?

Bad Subby, BAD.

You are not helping.

How is this different from any other DoA game? How can you have outrage now, yet not then, and not be a hypocrite?

Heron: Adolescent Lesbian Dickgirl

Actually, it's just Lesbian Dickgirl.

omeganuepsilon: It was bad enough that feminists and such complain about everything, now people tired of hearing feminists(or whoever) are complaining and trying to get crap shut down too?

Bad Subby, BAD.

You are not helping.

Guess what? Feminists still have shiat to complain about. The media's portrayal of women gives a lot of women body image issues. This is a problem.

Let me ask you a question: Would you think that there is nothing wrong with a fighting game that had a black character who had a bone through his nose, threw watermelons and spears as a special attack, had huge lips and a comically broad nose, and spoke with no regard for the rules of English grammar (or who spoke in an African Bushman click language) bother you? Would you find a video game character like that racist? I sure as hell would.

Thing is, a black man with a bone through his nose that throws watermelons is not a huge turn on for either half of the population.

So yeah, comparison is not even close.

Lanadapter: Since when is attraction to good feminine looks Misogyny?

It isn't, in and of itself. Unfortunately, there is a segment of the population that isn't psychologically prepared to deal with said "good feminine looks," and when confronted with it they channel their immaturity into some very unhealthy attitudes and practices. That has a nasty habit of getting into a self-reinforcing cycle.

This cycle is something that marketers have, over the past few decades, figured out how to exploit in order to sell just about anything: in not so many words, boobies sell stuff. Even mediocre games. That's not a problem for people who can handle it, but the entire point of this sort of marketing is to manipulate the people who can't.

fluffy2097: I'm not sure how you can call a fighting game known entirely for it's realistic breast bounce physics as marketed to children.

That's easy: just look at the marketing. Your so-called "realistic breast-bounce physics" -the core selling point for the series- is in fact anything but realistic: you can even get a better simulation with no engine at all. The only people who would be fooled by DoA's implementation -and thus, the people these games must truly be intended for- are people who lack sufficient experience to know any better.

If you're buying DOA 5 for your little snotflake, you're a bad parent and that's not the games fault.

Also true, but we face a dual problem here: the multitude of disinterested parents and the multitude of people who are over 18 but still lack maturity. Team Ninja (among others) counts on these groups to sell these games, because without the kids and manchildren there would be no market to speak of.

tomcatadam: Heron: Adolescent Lesbian Dickgirl

Actually, it's just Lesbian Dickgirl.

Lanadapter: Thing is, a black man with a bone through his nose that throws watermelons is not a huge turn on for either half of the population.

So yeah, comparison is not even close.

It doesn't sell because most of our society has evolved past the point where this:



is entertaining. Eventually, society will move beyond the point where degrading depictions of anatomically impossible females like this:



will also not be entertaining.

The point is that if a degrading depiction of women is a "turn on" for you (or anyone else), then YOU (or anyone else) has the problem. Why in the hell would you be turned on by seeing a woman who, in reality simply cannot exist without extensive cosmetic surgery? Are you attracted to women like this:



or this:



That shiat isn't natural. It requires extensive surgery. It also isn't attractive (not even the young Ukranian chick in the first picture). Women have body image issues because the media says that this:



or this:



is attractive. Women should not be uncomfortable with how their bodies look if they are healthy. Video games like DoA are a large part of the problem here.

twat_waffle: omeganuepsilon: It was bad enough that feminists and such complain about everything, now people tired of hearing feminists(or whoever) are complaining and trying to get crap shut down too?

Bad Subby, BAD.

You are not helping.

Guess what? Feminists still have shiat to complain about. The media's portrayal of women gives a lot of women body image issues. This is a problem.

Let me ask you a question: Would you think that there is nothing wrong with a fighting game that had a black character who had a bone through his nose, threw watermelons and spears as a special attack, had huge lips and a comically broad nose, and spoke with no regard for the rules of English grammar (or who spoke in an African Bushman click language) bother you? Would you find a video game character like that racist? I sure as hell would.

Well, you've got the right username.

Feminists don't have much to complain about, that's why they harp on video games and such things. This "media" you talk about, makes it sound like you're a conspiracy theorist. Video game developers(which are not the media, but a medium), develop what sells. Feminists have a problem with society that buys things that are pleasing to it, ergo.....wait for it....



Product makers don't make demands, they deliver product more or less at the demand of the populace.
Psychosis/deluson(or whateverthefarkiswrongwithyourbrain) misinterprets that as a demand upon one's self, and pushes for an over-reaction in the most inflammatory means possible.....Rage Junkie.

Ergo, Fark Feminist Brigade
/or you're trolling, whatever
//Poe's Law
///What's next, video games caused the Colorado movie shootings?

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: twat_waffle: omeganuepsilon: It was bad enough that feminists and such complain about everything, now people tired of hearing feminists(or whoever) are complaining and trying to get crap shut down too?

Bad Subby, BAD.

You are not helping.

Guess what? Feminists still have shiat to complain about. The media's portrayal of women gives a lot of women body image issues. This is a problem.

Let me ask you a question: Would you think that there is nothing wrong with a fighting game that had a black character who had a bone through his nose, threw watermelons and spears as a special attack, had huge lips and a comically broad nose, and spoke with no regard for the rules of English grammar (or who spoke in an African Bushman click language) bother you? Would you find a video game character like that racist? I sure as hell would.

So, basically, what you're saying is, in the end, the only types of depictions that should be allowed in fictional works should be as totally accurate and as non-offensive to every single possible person who could ever possibly be offended by and facet of that work.

Essentially, you want every fictional work to have the presentation and content of a My Little Pony episode.

Man. What a boring, boring world that would be.

/except for the Bronies, I suppose

So... Do Fallout 3 and Half Life 2 have the presentation and content of a MLP episode? How about Skyrim?

I have an issue with degrading caricatures, not with honest depictions.

twat_waffle: Lanadapter: Thing is, a black man with a bone through his nose that throws watermelons is not a huge turn on for either half of the population.

So yeah, comparison is not even close.

It doesn't sell because most of our society has evolved past the point where this:

[kpopkollective.files.wordpress.com image 300x326]

is entertaining. Eventually, society will move beyond the point where degrading depictions of anatomically impossible females like this:

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 400x518]

will also not be entertaining.

The point is that if a degrading depiction of women is a "turn on" for you (or anyone else), then YOU (or anyone else) has the problem. Why in the hell would you be turned on by seeing a woman who, in reality simply cannot exist without extensive cosmetic surgery? Are you attracted to women like this:

[sitchnews.com image 640x360]

or this:

[nunetherlands.files.wordpress.com image 450x452]

That shiat isn't natural. It requires extensive surgery. It also isn't attractive (not even the young Ukranian chick in the first picture). Women have body image issues because the media says that this:

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 228x360]

or this:

[static.gamesradar.com image 418x300]

is attractive. Women should not be uncomfortable with how their bodies look if they are healthy. Video games like DoA are a large part of the problem here.

Going by the possibility that you're not trolling, or just looking for an excuse to post images like those (highly unlikely, I know): First, physical attractiveness isn't a conscious thing. The brain isn't consulted. As such, unlike racist portrayals, there's a heavy instinctive component that can't and won't be eliminated by getting rid of the sort of pictures you don't approve of.

Second, the last two pictures you showed echo something I've been wondering for a while: How SHOULD women be portrayed? The stereotypical thin, waifish build you see in supermodels and the like are typically responded to with comments like "real women have curves." Okay, fair enough. Then, though, you see voluptuous women, large-breasted and the like, as with the "hourglass figure." People like yourself get pissed about that too, so clearly those aren't the "curves" in question. What is actually MEANT by that, I'm forced to conclude, is " real women have rolls of fat." If I'm wrong, I'll ask again: How do you want women portrayed? Give the rest of the world an actual positive goal, not just "whatever you've done isn't good enough."

Women should not be uncomfortable with how their bodies look if they are healthy.
Now THAT I'll agree with. If you have these body-image issues, that sounds like kind of a personal problem to me, and in most cases it's about as undeserved as most other forms of self-esteem issues. Also like most other self-esteem issues, it's neither the fault of external forces nor is it the responsibility of an entire society to accommodate them. If you've got issues with insecurity, that's something you need to fix for yourself.

omeganuepsilon: twat_waffle: omeganuepsilon: It was bad enough that feminists and such complain about everything, now people tired of hearing feminists(or whoever) are complaining and trying to get crap shut down too?

Bad Subby, BAD.

You are not helping.

Guess what? Feminists still have shiat to complain about. The media's portrayal of women gives a lot of women body image issues. This is a problem.

Let me ask you a question: Would you think that there is nothing wrong with a fighting game that had a black character who had a bone through his nose, threw watermelons and spears as a special attack, had huge lips and a comically broad nose, and spoke with no regard for the rules of English grammar (or who spoke in an African Bushman click language) bother you? Would you find a video game character like that racist? I sure as hell would.

Well, you've got the right username.

Feminists don't have much to complain about, that's why they harp on video games and such things. This "media" you talk about, makes it sound like you're a conspiracy theorist. Video game developers(which are not the media, but a medium), develop what sells. Feminists have a problem with society that buys things that are pleasing to it, ergo.....wait for it....

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 582x625]

Product makers don't make demands, they deliver product more or less at the demand of the populace.
Psychosis/deluson(or whateverthefarkiswrongwithyourbrain) misinterprets that as a demand upon one's self, and pushes for an over-reaction in the most inflammatory means possible.....Rage Junkie.

Ergo, Fark Feminist Brigade
/or you're trolling, whatever
//Poe's Law
///What's next, video games caused the Colorado movie shootings?

Not too long ago, these things were pleasing to a large segment of society:



Now, why do you think that those aren't as popular anymore?

Honestly, teenage boys have liked looking at half naked girls since the beginning if time. Its part of the growing up process and I don't think womens groups getting outraged is ever going to change that.

The only complaint I have is that game companies have a tendency to cater exclusively to this audience, leaving the rest of us out in the cold. Really, skimily dressed women really don't offend me unless they're just reduced to stupid bimbos like for example the recent Duke Nuk'em travesty. Even then I'll just roll my eyes and walk away.

twat_waffle: Not too long ago, these things were pleasing to a large segment of society:
Now, why do you think that those aren't as popular anymore?

Why are YOU equating beauty with race?

You've got to be a troll.

Beauty can be in a woman's form, a man's, or a sunset, or a snowflake. There is nothing discriminatory in appreciating beauty, nothing insulting to those who are not beautiful. You should take time out of your busy day to smell the roses....oh, wait, is that illegal in your feminism/racism handbook too?

Lastly, because I'm this close to washing my hands of you, you should take your feminist wiles into this thread and tell them how badly they're sinning, as close to face to face as you'll get on fark.

Link

That will get some reactions.

twat_waffle: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: twat_waffle: omeganuepsilon: It was bad enough that feminists and such complain about everything, now people tired of hearing feminists(or whoever) are complaining and trying to get crap shut down too?

Bad Subby, BAD.

You are not helping.

Guess what? Feminists still have shiat to complain about. The media's portrayal of women gives a lot of women body image issues. This is a problem.

Let me ask you a question: Would you think that there is nothing wrong with a fighting game that had a black character who had a bone through his nose, threw watermelons and spears as a special attack, had huge lips and a comically broad nose, and spoke with no regard for the rules of English grammar (or who spoke in an African Bushman click language) bother you? Would you find a video game character like that racist? I sure as hell would.

So, basically, what you're saying is, in the end, the only types of depictions that should be allowed in fictional works should be as totally accurate and as non-offensive to every single possible person who could ever possibly be offended by and facet of that work.

Essentially, you want every fictional work to have the presentation and content of a My Little Pony episode.

Man. What a boring, boring world that would be.

/except for the Bronies, I suppose

So... Do Fallout 3 and Half Life 2 have the presentation and content of a MLP episode? How about Skyrim?

I have an issue with degrading caricatures, not with honest depictions.

But we can still openly mock the white male right? It's not like every TV show and commercial in the past 5 years hasn't had the 'too stupid to live' dad who couldn't figure out how to pour water out of a boot with the directions on the bottom and the emotional maturity of a downs syndrom regect, while the supermodel mom of 5 kids did everything, was a super genius, had common sense, and was in general the god among men.

Or, is it OK to degrade one segment while championing others, just because, hey, they're white men. They deserve it. They're the majority and they're evil with their old boys clubs and their racism and sexism and easily painted target of all racist hatred etc.?

twat_waffle: Women should not be uncomfortable with how their bodies look if they are healthy. Video games like DoA are a large part of the problem here.

Mmm. No. While part of the problem, I would say they are the smaller part. Like Maxim magazine, they teach frat boys how to think about girls. Cosmopolitan teaches adolescent girls how to think about themselves, which is more often taken to heart and is much more destructive. Media targeted at boys is easier to ignore. Let's fix the media targeted at girls for the bigger win.

Last Man on Earth: Going by the possibility that you're not trolling, or just looking for an excuse to post images like those (highly unlikely, I know): First, physical attractiveness isn't a conscious thing. The brain isn't consulted. As such, unlike racist portrayals, there's a heavy instinctive component that can't and won't be eliminated by getting rid of the sort of pictures you don't approve of.

Second, the last two pictures you showed echo something I've been wondering for a while: How SHOULD women be portrayed? The stereotypical thin, waifish build you see in supermodels and the like are typically responded to with comments like "real women have curves." Okay, fair enough. Then, though, you see voluptuous women, large-breasted and the like, as with the "hourglass figure." People like yourself get pissed about that too, so clearly those aren't the "curves" in question. What is actually MEANT by that, I'm forced to conclude, is " real women have rolls of fat." If I'm wrong, I'll ask again: How do you want women portrayed? Give the rest of the world an actual positive goal, not just "whatever you've done isn't good enough."

Women should not be uncomfortable with how their bodies look if they are healthy.
Now THAT I'll agree with. If you have these body-image issues, that sounds like kind of a personal problem to me, and in most cases it's about as undeserved as most other forms of self-esteem issues. Also like most other self-esteem issues, it's neither the fault of external forces nor is it the responsibility of an entire society to accommodate them. If you've got issues with insecurity, that's something you need to fix for yourself.

I'm not trolling, and I'm not looking for an excuse to post those pictures. I was using them to make a point. I have no problem with the "hourglass figure", so long as everyone is on the same page regarding what that actually means. Bra cup size really isn't a component of body type. Women should be portrayed how they are, not how some farking 13 year old at heart video game developer thinks they should be.

Body image issues are a huge problem for a large segment of the female population of this country (at least). Of course, free speech is free speech, and that extends to video games (as it should). I just see something wrong with promoting ideals of feminine beauty that are unattainable for a vast majority of women, particularly when it leads to the consequences listed in the linked article.

omeganuepsilon: twat_waffle: Not too long ago, these things were pleasing to a large segment of society:
Now, why do you think that those aren't as popular anymore?

Why are YOU equating beauty with race?

You've got to be a troll.

Beauty can be in a woman's form, a man's, or a sunset, or a snowflake. There is nothing discriminatory in appreciating beauty, nothing insulting to those who are not beautiful. You should take time out of your busy day to smell the roses....oh, wait, is that illegal in your feminism/racism handbook too?

I'm not equating beauty to race. I'm equating degrading depictions to other degrading depictions.

kroonermanblack: twat_waffle: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: twat_waffle: omeganuepsilon: It was bad enough that feminists and such complain about everything, now people tired of hearing feminists(or whoever) are complaining and trying to get crap shut down too?

Bad Subby, BAD.

You are not helping.

Guess what? Feminists still have shiat to complain about. The media's portrayal of women gives a lot of women body image issues. This is a problem.

Let me ask you a question: Would you think that there is nothing wrong with a fighting game that had a black character who had a bone through his nose, threw watermelons and spears as a special attack, had huge lips and a comically broad nose, and spoke with no regard for the rules of English grammar (or who spoke in an African Bushman click language) bother you? Would you find a video game character like that racist? I sure as hell would.

So, basically, what you're saying is, in the end, the only types of depictions that should be allowed in fictional works should be as totally accurate and as non-offensive to every single possible person who could ever possibly be offended by and facet of that work.

Essentially, you want every fictional work to have the presentation and content of a My Little Pony episode.

Man. What a boring, boring world that would be.

/except for the Bronies, I suppose

So... Do Fallout 3 and Half Life 2 have the presentation and content of a MLP episode? How about Skyrim?

I have an issue with degrading caricatures, not with honest depictions.

But we can still openly mock the white male right? It's not like every TV show and commercial in the past 5 years hasn't had the 'too stupid to live' dad who couldn't figure out how to pour water out of a boot with the directions on the bottom and the emotional maturity of a downs syndrom regect, while the supermodel mom of 5 kids did everything, was a super genius, had common sense, and was in general the god among men.

Or, is it OK to degrade one segment while championing others ...

Yeah, and why can black people use the N-word amongst themselves but white people can't?

I know that it's hard to understand if you aren't a member of the affected group. It was hard for me to wrap my head around at first, too. I made the same arguments that you are now making. The best answer I have is this: Do you see reinforcement of negative stereotypes that are then used to hold white males back in those commercials and sitcoms? Honestly, I can't answer your question in a way that you would find satisfactory. I can only ask for you to look at the historical context. It may not be "fair", but it doesn't have to be. How we have treated women in the past means that we have to be sensitive with regards to how we depict them now. It's the same reason that a lot of people had a problem with this movie:



It isn't that the content of the movie was overly offensive, it's just that there is a history of minstrel shows involving white performers in blackface, portraying black people and playing on negative stereotypes of the day.

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: twat_waffle: So... Do Fallout 3 and Half Life 2 have the presentation and content of a MLP episode? How about Skyrim?

I have an issue with degrading caricatures, not with honest depictions.

I *guarantee* you that someone finds things degrading about Skyrim and Fallout 3 and Half Life 2. I *guarantee* it.

And even if I couldn't guarantee it, there's a high likelihood that someone would be offended by *something* in the game. Your thought process, logically, requires that I make the presentation and content as milquetoast as possible in order to avoid that.

/or do you mean people should be sensitive to YOUR sacred cows, but other peoples' objections don't matter so much, because yours are Goodthink?
//yeah, that's what I thought

Slippery slope, anyone?

There is a world of difference between positive portrayals of women and minorities, or at least portrayals that aren't caricatures, and Pit-Pat, the magical, pansexual, nonthreatening spokesthing:



Alyx Vance is an example of a positive portrayal of women. The idea isn't to keep people from being offended, but to not reinforce negative images. Is it acceptable to portray Jews as money grubbing spendthrifts? Is it acceptable to portray Muslims as being stuck in the 13th Century (by our reckoning)? These are things that we need to think about in our media, without compromising the stories being told. If an anatomically impossible, scantily clad woman is essential to your game or story, then go for it. If it isn't, why not go for a little realism.

LindenFark: twat_waffle: Women should not be uncomfortable with how their bodies look if they are healthy. Video games like DoA are a large part of the problem here.

Mmm. No. While part of the problem, I would say they are the smaller part. Like Maxim magazine, they teach frat boys how to think about girls. Cosmopolitan teaches adolescent girls how to think about themselves, which is more often taken to heart and is much more destructive. Media targeted at boys is easier to ignore. Let's fix the media targeted at girls for the bigger win.

Yeah, I realized that after I posted it. However, those games do cause problems with the way that boys think about women and how much they respect women.

Jim_Callahan:
//I may be in the minority for hating Tekken, but then the only fighting games that don't put me to sleep are Soul Calibur (well, except IV, that one sucked) and Smash Bros.


Disagrees

twat_waffle: I know that it's hard to understand

Not really.

You're a condescension spewing sexist/racist/chauvanist.

Basically 'all these things I point to right here? These are social injustices. Nothing else.'

I was baiting you, and you responded to the T how I expected. Which is disapointing, because if you're trolling you're losing points, and if you're serious...well, that's more disturbing.

Lolthien: Keizer_Ghidorah: It's a video game. Video games do not influence people. If they did, millions of kids would have been jumping on people's heads and throwing turtles at things back in 1985, or running as fast as they can and rolling into balls to slam against cars back in 1991.

Pixel women with huge ta-tas don't cause misogyny any more than pixel guns shooting pixel bullets at pixel monsters causes gun violence. If you're unable to distinguish fantasy from reality, it's not the fault of game makers, movie producers, or television CEOs.

It's amazing that after six decades we're still attacking recreational activities as the causes of every ill under the sun.

If you believe this, you are hopelessly naive.

I agree, media shouldn't be censored. And I'm an avid gamer myself, but to suggest that video games aren't AT LEAST as capable of influencing people as television or print media (which is the basis of all the billions of advertising dollars spent each MONTH) shows that you really don't understand how the real world works.

Unless of course you're trolling. In that case: Bravo.
Forgive me for not making the mental vault from "a Burger King commercial makes you hungry for fries" to "playing a video game where the women are scantily-clad turns you into a women-hating misogynist". Especially when the same tire dold bullshiat gets trotted out with every single popular trend that's occured for the last few decades. It's time we stopped blaming people's misbehaviors on what's popular and focus on the people themselves. A person doesn't turn into a women-hating psycho from playing a couple of video games, he already had an existing problem.