FARK.com: (7254865) Obama is presiding over our smallest government in 45 years

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		Obama is presiding over our smallest government in 45 years (theatlantic.com)		172
		More: Spiffy, Summer of Love, Great Recession

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2350 clicks; posted to Politics » on 07 Aug 2012 at 10:01 AM | Favorite | share:

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oryx		2012-08-07 10:21:45 AM

Dusk-You-n-Me		2012-08-07 10:22:07 AM

Small government Democrats, big government Republicans.

Linux_Yes		2012-08-07 10:22:38 AM

palelizard: sweetmelissa31: Tigger: What's your definition of 'smaller government' then?

The wealthy pay fewer taxes and the money we have goes to important things like war.

And fewer black people in charge.

war is good for business.

if you have DoD contracts, anyway.

10 Billion/month to f*ck around in Iraq?? money well spent and proof that Terrorism works. a few thousand terrorists really can fark up a Nation of 300+ million. and they can do it for dirt cheap. my hats off to you, Saudi Arabia, et al.

Hydra		2012-08-07 10:22:46 AM

hugram: AmazinTim: So... Subby found a graph showing that the public sector was also hit by the recession? Nice work there, Lou.

You were saying...
[farm9.staticflickr.com image 800x462]

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc

Ignore the fact that the reported job growth has barely kept up with population growth and that the headline unemployment rate would STILL be north of 10% if the participation rate was near where it was prior to the recession - you have a president to shill for!

cirby		2012-08-07 10:23:01 AM

Bloody William:
Which is why private sector jobs have actually been growing.

...except that, as a percentage of the population (the article's actual argument for government "cuts"), private sector jobs are actually shrinking. They also sort of gloss over that they're using "total government employment" - state, Federal, and local - and that the loss in jobs has all been state and local. The Federal government hasn't shrunk very much at all, proportionally, and none at all in real numbers.

Those state and local governments cut jobs for a reason - to save money. It's a feature, not a bug. And Obama had nothing to do with it.

That's why those "added 160,000 jobs" articles are so funny - when we need 300,000 jobs or more added just to keep up with population growth, and a million to get back to "normal" Using the article's premise, the private sector hasn't lost this many jobs as a percentage of the population since the Great Depression.

Boxcutta		2012-08-07 10:24:03 AM

Meanwhile, at the Heritage Foundation...

Tigger		2012-08-07 10:25:01 AM

Hydra: This completely ignores the private companies/contractors who get paid by the government without actually being "employed" by the government, but if it'll make Fark's favorite president look good, then by all means pimp these statistics out as much as possible!

/lies
//damn lies
///statistics

So let me get this straight - because smaller government is important to you on principle it is therefore bad that Obama has shrunk the size of the government. It was also bad when Clinton removed 380,000 federal jobs (during one of the most prosperous decades since the war).

By contrast it was good when Reagan and Bush II dramatically increased the number of government employees - because small government is an important principle.

This is why modern conservatism is failing - because you don't have any farking principles. You'll abandon what you allegedly hold dear simply because it's being enacted by a guy from the other party.

You farking idiots should be celebrating the biggest victory in the history of politics. The democrats are enacting all your policies of the last 30 years. The Democrats have become the party of Goldwater.

You guys won. And your plan is to shiat in your own mouths, whine about it and then abandon all those principles in favor or, well I'm not sure what you're in favor of anymore.

qorkfiend		2012-08-07 10:25:14 AM

Hydra: hugram: AmazinTim: So... Subby found a graph showing that the public sector was also hit by the recession? Nice work there, Lou.

You were saying...
[farm9.staticflickr.com image 800x462]

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc

Ignore the fact that the reported job growth has barely kept up with population growth and that the headline unemployment rate would STILL be north of 10% if the participation rate was near where it was prior to the recession - you have a president to shill for!

Yeah, if we only used the statistics you wanted to use instead of the statistics we've been using for years, we would see that everything is TERRIBLE.

Mikey1969		2012-08-07 10:25:17 AM

AmazinTim: So... Subby found a graph showing that the public sector was also hit by the recession? Nice work there, Lou.

Wow, you bitatch that he's expanding government too much, you biatch that he isn't expanding it enough. You biatch that he's too liberal, you biatch that he isn't liberal enough. The entire Right Wing is one giant Romney... You guys are on both sides of EVERYthing.

We get it, he's blah.

Linux_Yes		2012-08-07 10:25:23 AM

Boxcutta: [i.imgur.com image 383x236]
Meanwhile, at the Heritage Foundation...

if a genuine Nazi could be brought back to 2012 USA, he'd be a Republican.

HotWingConspiracy		2012-08-07 10:25:37 AM

Next on Fox: Is Obama weakening our government with all of these cuts?

sprawl15's troll alt		2012-08-07 10:25:47 AM

Serious Black		2012-08-07 10:25:59 AM

Mikey1969		2012-08-07 10:26:29 AM

nyseattitude: sweetmelissa31: joshiz: bronyaur1: Similarly, Gabby Giffords is a national shame

I think you mean Gabby Douglas, but I've been doing that in my head all week.

But who gave Gabby Giffords permission to get shot while being blatantly Democrat?

Sara Palin authorized that

[tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com image 400x515]

Actually, I thin it was the 'Fire a fully qutomatic M16 to remove Gabby Giffords from office' guy. Seriously, Palin's map has nothing on his stupid stunt.

hugram		2012-08-07 10:26:44 AM

Hydra: hugram: AmazinTim: So... Subby found a graph showing that the public sector was also hit by the recession? Nice work there, Lou.

You were saying...
[farm9.staticflickr.com image 800x462]

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc

Ignore the fact that the reported job growth has barely kept up with population growth and that the headline unemployment rate would STILL be north of 10% if the participation rate was near where it was prior to the recession - you have a president to shill for!

See... you said job growth... Were you upset at Bush when the economy was losing 700K jobs a month during his last few months? I'm sure you were, right?

All you have now is "Obama hasn't fix the economy fast enough" instead of happily saying "the economy has now lost 1.4 millions jobs per month under Obama".

Dusk-You-n-Me		2012-08-07 10:26:44 AM

Hydra: Ignore the fact that the reported job growth has barely kept up with population growth and that the headline unemployment rate would STILL be north of 10% if the participation rate was near where it was prior to the recession

The unemployment rate would be around 7.1% if it weren't for all those government jobs lost.

From your favorite source. Link

jso2897		2012-08-07 10:26:56 AM

Hydra		2012-08-07 10:27:13 AM

Linux_Yes: are you talking about the babes sucking on government teat and then whining about paying taxes?? those folks?? those crony capitalist pigs who feed off the govenment and don't want to put any of their hard earned money back into it???

Yes as well as the phony way the government keeps track of its total true employment by outsourcing to private companies and contractors that do work solely for the government in defense and domestic projects.

ongbok		2012-08-07 10:27:20 AM

Dr Dreidel: tenpoundsofcheese: FlashHarry: AmazinTim: So... Subby found a graph showing that the public sector was also hit by the recession? Nice work there, Lou.

why has the private sector been adding jobs for nearly 30 straight months then, einstein?

they contract to the government.
look at how many private security forces we have in Iraq for example.

Sad that the largest cut in employment was in teachers. 0bama couldn't find anyone else to cut?

Teachers (public school ones) are paid by the states they work in, not by the Feds. Teachers are hired and fired by the states they work in, not by the Feds.

Wanna take a guess what all those cuts to federal education spending ended up doing? As a bonus, tell me who pushed for those cuts.

He should also which states laid off the most teachers, they ain't blue.

Gaseous Anomaly		2012-08-07 10:27:51 AM

cirby: They also sort of gloss over that they're using "total government employment" - state, Federal, and local - and that the loss in jobs has all been state and local. The Federal government hasn't shrunk very much at all, proportionally, and none at all in real numbers.

That's not glossed over, that's the whole point.

I suppose it makes a difference to radical Tenthers, where Federal spending is more evil than the same amount of State spending.

It's just the wonders of every State requiring procyclical budgeting. So the obvious solution is to require the Federal budget to be procyclical as well, what could go wrong?

browser_snake		2012-08-07 10:28:02 AM

Graph shows the "Public Sector", not the Federal Government. This includes states and local governments. This has no correlation to Obama.

Deneb81		2012-08-07 10:28:39 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: FlashHarry: AmazinTim: So... Subby found a graph showing that the public sector was also hit by the recession? Nice work there, Lou.

why has the private sector been adding jobs for nearly 30 straight months then, einstein?

they contract to the government.
look at how many private security forces we have in Iraq for example.

Sad that the largest cut in employment was in teachers. 0bama couldn't find anyone else to cut?

That's state government, so not really his choice is it?

Also, teachers are overwhelmingly the target of republican administrations - remember Wisconson?

Finally, no - not really.

Theres not a lot locally to cut without hitting teachers, police, firefighters and EMT's.

From http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3410

HAMMERTOE		2012-08-07 10:29:00 AM

Ah, but the bureaucracy to enforce and enact Romneycare hasn't been hired yet!

Gaseous Anomaly		2012-08-07 10:29:57 AM

Linux_Yes: if he tried to cut the 1 Trillion Defense budget, the Penisgon would send his butt to the south pole.

To be fair, there have been some proposed cuts that the Pentagon was fine with, that got blocked by Congress, because they wanted to keep the pork flowing to their particular districts.

Hydra		2012-08-07 10:30:03 AM

Tigger: So let me get this straight - because smaller government is important to you on principle it is therefore bad that Obama has shrunk the size of the government.

OBAMA DIDN'T SHRINK THE SIZE OF GOVERNMENT!

Clear enough for you to understand, now?

/wait, you only care about statistics that make Obama look good
//keeping being a partisan shill

Antimatter		2012-08-07 10:30:28 AM

cubic_spleen: Lost Thought 00: minoridiot: Laying off Nasa (or any other program) in order to oursource does not mean smaller.

Smaller? Undeniably. Better? DebatableNO.

/FTF everyone who thinks corporations are better than governments.

to be honest, in the case of NASA it actually worked. Space X took less money, to preform several orbital launches and a docking with the ISS, faster, and far cheaper then ARES was projecting.

That would have meant more money for other science projects, but congress went and forced them to give billions to the same private companies behind ares for the SLS, which is years from flights and billions more expensive.

earthwirm		2012-08-07 10:30:48 AM

Debeo Summa Credo		2012-08-07 10:31:44 AM

sprawl15's troll alt: Debeo Summa Credo: TFA correctly indicates that they are talking about federal, state, and local jobs. The shrinkage in govt employment has been at the state and local level, I believe, as they don't have the ability to borrow to finance deficits like the federal govt does. For what that's worth.

Well, yeah, but Obama never put the FEMA camps on the books in the first place. That more than balances out these "statistics".

Well, I confess I don't get where you're going with your post. I've been staring at the pictures for a while, trying to decipher the puzzle, and can't do it. Looks like a POW camp, a prison, and a ball field in a location I can't determine.

/kudos if they were just random pics you posted as a gag to make me scratch my head.

Gaseous Anomaly		2012-08-07 10:31:48 AM

browser_snake: Graph shows the "Public Sector", not the Federal Government. This includes states and local governments. This has no correlation to Obama.

It does in a sense: if he'd had been able to push through a stimulus that was bigger than the State and local drawdowns, it might have helped. On the other hand trying to do that might have resulted in no stimulus at all, instead of the (approximately) no NET stimulus we got.

HotIgneous Intruder		2012-08-07 10:32:24 AM

It's still going to take another decade and a half to undo the joy of the Bush Administration.
A lost generation.

The Homer Tax		2012-08-07 10:32:26 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: TFA correctly indicates that they are talking about federal, state, and local jobs. The shrinkage in govt employment has been at the state and local level, I believe, as they don't have the ability to borrow to finance deficits like the federal govt does. For what that's worth.

From the looks of it, The size of non-military federal government employees is slightly higher than it was during GW Bush, But lower than it was during GHWBush or Reagan.

Historical Federal Workforce Tables

It only goes to 2010, so that number could have gone down or up these last two years (I'd imagine down). Either way, it does refute the "Biggest Government EVAR" talking point from Republicans...It looks like the biggest federal governments (in terms of employment) have been Bush 1 and Nixon.

Tigger		2012-08-07 10:32:29 AM

Hydra: Tigger: So let me get this straight - because smaller government is important to you on principle it is therefore bad that Obama has shrunk the size of the government.

OBAMA DIDN'T SHRINK THE SIZE OF GOVERNMENT!

Clear enough for you to understand, now?

/wait, you only care about statistics that make Obama look good
//keeping being a partisan shill

I like you. you're cute.

I mean you're kind of downsy but cute.

How do you feel about Clinton removing 380,000 Federal jobs? Do you agree that was good? Do you agree that was better than Bush II and Reagan.

Or do you in fact lack the principles and intellectual courage to realise that you backed the wrong horse.

minoridiot		2012-08-07 10:35:08 AM

Vodka Zombie: minoridiot: Laying off Nasa (or any other program) in order to oursource does not mean smaller.

How do you figure?

Seems to me that that would be the exact definition of reducing government.

Outsourcing means wealth is redistrubuted to the private sector rather than govermental employees, it does not mean less spending.

Citrate1007		2012-08-07 10:35:32 AM

nyseattitude: sweetmelissa31: joshiz: bronyaur1: Similarly, Gabby Giffords is a national shame

I think you mean Gabby Douglas, but I've been doing that in my head all week.

But who gave Gabby Giffords permission to get shot while being blatantly Democrat?

Sara Palin authorized that

[tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com image 400x515]

Actually no, Sarah did this right after the assassination attempt as if she was suggesting that there are other politicians that need to be attacked........utterly despicable.

The Homer Tax		2012-08-07 10:35:43 AM

cirby: and that the loss in jobs has all been state and local.

Do you have a citation for that? I can only find federal employment numbers up to 2010. What source are you using?

Hydra: Yes as well as the phony way the government keeps track of its total true employment by outsourcing to private companies and contractors that do work solely for the government in defense and domestic projects.

Which Republicans in the Legislature are fighting to cut funding for Defense Contractors?

The Homer Tax		2012-08-07 10:37:39 AM

Hydra: OBAMA DIDN'T SHRINK THE SIZE OF GOVERNMENT!

Maybe not, but he's kept it relatively low from a historical perspective.

Cinaed		2012-08-07 10:37:51 AM

The definition of government 'size' isn't quite so easy.

As raw dollars?
As proportion of GDP?
As defined by relative legal power/authority/accountability?
As persons employed?

All, none, some?

The derpy don't like having to pick one, since it limits their capacity to herp.

Debeo Summa Credo		2012-08-07 10:37:54 AM

jso2897: Debeo Summa Credo: TFA correctly indicates that they are talking about federal, state, and local jobs. The shrinkage in govt employment has been at the state and local level, I believe, as they don't have the ability to borrow to finance deficits like the federal govt does. For what that's worth.

So, when the poop you done flung don't stick, just scoop it up and fling it again, eh?

Im not flinging poop just pointing out a fact that contradicts subby's assertion that Obama has shrunk government.

But apparently your preferred MO is when poop lands on your face to just ignore it and say "what poop?", eh?

Raharu		2012-08-07 10:37:55 AM

EnviroDude: How bad is it when the government can't sustain jobs. You would think that spending $5,000,000,000,000 would have more to show for it

You sound tired.

So tired in fact that you will go and take a nap, vanishing from this thread.

NateGrey		2012-08-07 10:39:52 AM

earthwirm: Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics. AKA, the place where they make up numbers now.

Waaaah the numbers arent supporting my Republican world view NOW they are lying!

This is what Republicans actually believe!

Serious Black		2012-08-07 10:40:38 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: jso2897: Debeo Summa Credo: TFA correctly indicates that they are talking about federal, state, and local jobs. The shrinkage in govt employment has been at the state and local level, I believe, as they don't have the ability to borrow to finance deficits like the federal govt does. For what that's worth.

So, when the poop you done flung don't stick, just scoop it up and fling it again, eh?

Im not flinging poop just pointing out a fact that contradicts subby's assertion that Obama has shrunk government.

But apparently your preferred MO is when poop lands on your face to just ignore it and say "what poop?", eh?

Please tell us the proper way to measure the size of government then. Difficulty: make sure every Republican President since 1980 didn't radically increase the size of government by this metric.

tenpoundsofcheese		2012-08-07 10:40:40 AM

Dr Dreidel: tenpoundsofcheese: FlashHarry: AmazinTim: So... Subby found a graph showing that the public sector was also hit by the recession? Nice work there, Lou.

why has the private sector been adding jobs for nearly 30 straight months then, einstein?

they contract to the government.
look at how many private security forces we have in Iraq for example.

Sad that the largest cut in employment was in teachers. 0bama couldn't find anyone else to cut?

Teachers (public school ones) are paid by the states they work in, not by the Feds. Teachers are hired and fired by the states they work in, not by the Feds.

and we all know that nothing 0bama does impacts the States. right? that is what you are implying.

Wanna take a guess what all those cuts to federal education spending ended up doing?

Hurting teachers, again.

As a bonus, tell me who pushed for those cuts.

As a double bonus, who signed off on those cuts? (hint, 0bama!)

hugram		2012-08-07 10:41:22 AM

Hydra: Ignore the fact that the reported job growth has barely kept up with population growth and that the headline unemployment rate would STILL be north of 10% if the participation rate was near where it was prior to the recession - you have a president to shill for!

Speaking of the unemployment rate... you must be proud of Bush II

Comparing unemployment rate fluctuation between President Bush and President Obama.

Bush
1/20/2001: 4.2%
1/20/2009: 7.7%
Unemployment Rate Change: 83.33% increase

Obama
1/20/2009: 7.7%
Currently: 8.3%
Unemployment Rate Change: 7.80% increase

mrshowrules		2012-08-07 10:42:16 AM

Cinaed: The definition of government 'size' isn't quite so easy.

As raw dollars?
As proportion of GDP?
As defined by relative legal power/authority/accountability?
As persons employed?

All, none, some?

The derpy don't like having to pick one, since it limits their capacity to herp.

What about a Government small enough to fit up a women's vagina? That's what the GOP really wants and Obama has done nothing to reach that goal. Heck, Obama hasn't even gotten the Government small enough to fit in people's bedrooms.

Snarfangel		2012-08-07 10:43:41 AM

Citrate1007: nyseattitude: sweetmelissa31: joshiz: bronyaur1: Similarly, Gabby Giffords is a national shame

I think you mean Gabby Douglas, but I've been doing that in my head all week.

But who gave Gabby Giffords permission to get shot while being blatantly Democrat?

Sara Palin authorized that

[tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com image 400x515]

Actually no, Sarah did this right after the assassination attempt as if she was suggesting that there are other politicians that need to be attacked........utterly despicable.

Alaskans take their surveying seriously.

Debeo Summa Credo		2012-08-07 10:45:34 AM

The Homer Tax: Debeo Summa Credo: TFA correctly indicates that they are talking about federal, state, and local jobs. The shrinkage in govt employment has been at the state and local level, I believe, as they don't have the ability to borrow to finance deficits like the federal govt does. For what that's worth.

From the looks of it, The size of non-military federal government employees is slightly higher than it was during GW Bush, But lower than it was during GHWBush or Reagan.

Historical Federal Workforce Tables

It only goes to 2010, so that number could have gone down or up these last two years (I'd imagine down). Either way, it does refute the "Biggest Government EVAR" talking point from Republicans...It looks like the biggest federal governments (in terms of employment) have been Bush 1 and Nixon.

Agreed. It also refutes any implication (like Subby's) that Obama has shrunk govt. Federal employment kept going up until late 2011.

USA today article from a couple months ago:

Federal employment grew 13% - 250,000 jobs - from the recession's start in December 2007 to a peak last September. During that time, private employment fell 5% and state and local governments cut staffs by 2%

cabbyman		2012-08-07 10:46:49 AM

Thanks be unto the TEA Party!

mrshowrules		2012-08-07 10:47:09 AM

hugram: Hydra: Ignore the fact that the reported job growth has barely kept up with population growth and that the headline unemployment rate would STILL be north of 10% if the participation rate was near where it was prior to the recession - you have a president to shill for!

Speaking of the unemployment rate... you must be proud of Bush II

Comparing unemployment rate fluctuation between President Bush and President Obama.

Bush
1/20/2001: 4.2%
1/20/2009: 7.7%
Unemployment Rate Change: 83.33% increase

Obama
1/20/2009: 7.7%
Currently: 8.3%
Unemployment Rate Change: 7.80% increase

or you can compare based on budgets.

Bush II's budgets ran from Oct 2001 to Oct 2009
That was a 5.3% to 10% unemployment

Obama's first budget Oct 2009 to today
10% unemployment to 8.3%

The Homer Tax		2012-08-07 10:52:09 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: Agreed. It also refutes any implication (like Subby's) that Obama has shrunk govt. Federal employment kept going up until late 2011.

Cool, so it sounds like reasonable people can agree that while Obama perhaps has not "shrunk" federal employment to any significant degree, he has kept it relatively low - especially when considered in a historical perspective, and is a far cry from the "Rapid expansion of the federal government" narrative his opponents are trying to declare.

Huzzah! Thread over.

Gaseous Anomaly		2012-08-07 10:53:23 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: refutes any implication (like Subby's) that Obama has shrunk govt. Federal employment kept going up until late 2011.

Federal government grew, State and local governments shrank more.

This makes government smaller (a positive for conservatives) but more tilted towards the Federal (a negative for conservatives). So whether it's overall good or bad depends on how much relative value you place on smallness vs. federalism.

What it does refute is the "OMG government's taking over the economy" meme that drifts around the right-wing reality bubble.

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