Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(BBC)   Sweden makes eco-friendly lead-free bullets for their army. They ended up poisoning the soldiers that fired them, though   (bbc.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Fail, Sweden, shooting ranges, British Military, Swedish Government, joint pain, BAE Systems, Environmental Protection Agency, British troops  
•       •       •

15108 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Aug 2012 at 3:43 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



93 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2012-08-07 12:20:06 AM  
And then they fixed the issue of soldiers getting sick. So they did get what they were after.
 
2012-08-07 12:21:42 AM  
Lead has always been an obvious choice for ammunition. It's cheap, heavy and easy to mould into bullet shapes - it also has a lubricating effect on gun barrels when fired.

How does it sneak past the copper jacket to achieve this? And I thought lead fouled barrels?
 
2012-08-07 12:26:34 AM  
you haven't been able to hunt ducks with lead shot for years
 
2012-08-07 01:49:37 AM  
Research showed that the combination of new bullets and new weapons caused increases in emissions of carbon dioxide, ammonia and hydrogen cyanide.

I may be going out on a limb, but I suspect that one of these byproducts may be a little more hazardous than the others.
 
2012-08-07 02:53:28 AM  

ChiliBoots: Research showed that the combination of new bullets and new weapons caused increases in emissions of carbon dioxide, ammonia and hydrogen cyanide.

I may be going out on a limb, but I suspect that one of these byproducts may be a little more hazardous than the others.


Is it the carbon dioxide? It's the carbon dioxide, isn't it?
 
2012-08-07 03:49:57 AM  
In 1995, the Swedish government requested alternative ammunition. Four years later, the first lead-free bullets were delivered. Since then Nammo has made 360 million at its plant on the shores of Lake Vattern in southern Sweden.

I assumed they ship them out with an allen key and minus a few integral parts?
 
2012-08-07 03:51:46 AM  

ChiliBoots: Research showed that the combination of new bullets and new weapons caused increases in emissions of carbon dioxide, ammonia and hydrogen cyanide.

I may be going out on a limb, but I suspect that one of these byproducts may be a little more hazardous than the others.


Fire a gun, kill a planet. Nice.
 
2012-08-07 03:51:50 AM  

miss diminutive: In 1995, the Swedish government requested alternative ammunition. Four years later, the first lead-free bullets were delivered. Since then Nammo has made 360 million at its plant on the shores of Lake Vattern in southern Sweden.

I assumed they ship them out with an allen key and minus a few integral parts?


farm5.static.flickr.com

Enjoy your lead-free crap
 
2012-08-07 03:57:48 AM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: miss diminutive: In 1995, the Swedish government requested alternative ammunition. Four years later, the first lead-free bullets were delivered. Since then Nammo has made 360 million at its plant on the shores of Lake Vattern in southern Sweden.

I assumed they ship them out with an allen key and minus a few integral parts?

[farm5.static.flickr.com image 500x313]

Enjoy your lead-free crap


This was precisely the image I was waiting for. You don't disappoint, Atheismo.
 
2012-08-07 03:59:18 AM  

miss diminutive: The All-Powerful Atheismo: miss diminutive: In 1995, the Swedish government requested alternative ammunition. Four years later, the first lead-free bullets were delivered. Since then Nammo has made 360 million at its plant on the shores of Lake Vattern in southern Sweden.

I assumed they ship them out with an allen key and minus a few integral parts?

[farm5.static.flickr.com image 500x313]

Enjoy your lead-free crap

This was precisely the image I was waiting for. You don't disappoint, Atheismo.


Not when it comes to Simpsons/Futurama/Adult Swim references...

don't ask me where I do disappoint.
 
2012-08-07 04:03:06 AM  
Well, AFAIK the replacement for lead would be tungsten. Actually, tungsten can be like 80% denser than lead, which is sort of a "plus". Tungsten is one of the best armor-piercing/ground-penetrating/wall-penetrating tips because it's hard. But if it doesn't deform like lead, it won't do as much damage when it actually hits a body. True expanding bullets are prohibited by Geneva Conventions, but AFAIK the military bullets still increase punch quite a bit via deformation.

Let's look up the real problem, commodity prices:
ferro tungsten (something like 75%-85% tungsten) is currently $52/kg.
Lead is currently $1.85/kg.

Yeah, we're not gonna be using tungsten anytime soon. We shoot a LOT more bullets than you.
 
2012-08-07 04:07:20 AM  
Oznog: True expanding bullets are prohibited by Geneva Conventions, but AFAIK the military bullets still increase punch quite a bit via deformation.

The Hague Convention of 1899, actually. It's Declaration III.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.
 
2012-08-07 04:22:32 AM  
Fine, Sweden, have it your way, we'll quit using lead.

Depleted uranium it is.
 
2012-08-07 04:33:32 AM  
It sounds like those bullets that didn't quite work as planned need to be sent to your enemy instead..
Make a lot in the caliber they use and sneak them into their stockpile.. They shoot at you, but you hit them.

Would that make them a chemical weapon though?

/I still use lead pellets in my air rifle
 
2012-08-07 04:34:43 AM  
bullets kill...
 
2012-08-07 04:34:51 AM  

Mr. Shabooboo: It sounds like those bullets that didn't quite work as planned need to be sent to your enemy instead..
Make a lot in the caliber they use and sneak them into their stockpile.. They shoot at you, but you hit them.

Would that make them a chemical weapon though?

/I still use lead pellets in my air rifle


If we give them all the lead bullets, then they're just going to shoot them at us, then we'll be stuck with all the lead
 
2012-08-07 04:45:44 AM  
I have more fun yelling "EAT LEAD, MOTHERFARKERS!!!!"

Yelling anything else just doesn't have that ring to it ...
 
2012-08-07 04:53:49 AM  

kayanlau: I have more fun yelling "EAT LEAD, MOTHERFARKERS!!!!"

Yelling anything else just doesn't have that ring to it ...


EAT TRACE AMOUNTS OF HARMFUL GASES INCLUDING CARBON DIOXIDE, AMMONIA, AND HYDROGEN CYANIDE, MOTHER- HEY WHERE ARE YOU GOING? YOU NEED TO BE HERE SO I CAN COMPLETE MY SHOUT AND THEN FEED YOU HARMFUL SUBSTANCES! GODDAMNIT!
 
2012-08-07 04:58:23 AM  
The bigger issue here is...Sweden has an army? Lol. Terrifying.
 
2012-08-07 05:12:47 AM  
Okay, what's the lifespan of a full copper jacket in the environment?

I've always thought the concern over metallic lead was overblown. It has to oxidize first to make a soluble agent, but lead water pipes were stable because the oxide can be fairly stable. Burning it in gasoline, making paint that people come into contact with, etc, all were bad ideas.

And they're right, most of the army ammo does get used at a firing range, with large berms of dirt for backstops. Maybe once a year you'll have to dig it up and run it past a screen. That'll keep the lead levels down because you'll head off oxidation.
 
2012-08-07 05:15:03 AM  
The US has a similar initiative: M855A1 ammunition - the lead-free replacement for the gold old "green tip" ammo.

On paper, it has similar performance characteristics - same bullet weight, same fps, same accuracy.

In reality (and I can actually talk to this - tested it in the old job) it is inferior. Its accuracy is worse. Not "can't hit the broad side of a barn," but certainly not up to even green tip's pretty low standard. Its flash characteristics are significantly worse, despite the fact that is is billed as being made with a "flash suppressing powder." And to top it off, it is more expensive. So, it makes soldiers less effective, more vulnerable, and costs more to do so. Great job, everyone!

When it comes to ammo, this is how I prefer to think green:
i1145.photobucket.com
i1145.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-07 05:15:08 AM  

robohobo: The bigger issue here is...Sweden has an army? Lol. Terrifying.


Wondered when someone would get around to this.
 
x23
2012-08-07 05:37:17 AM  
"It was part of a range of new environmentally friendly products including biodegradable landmines."

more interested about that one honestly.
 
2012-08-07 05:39:16 AM  
Looks like the Swedish army's bullets are borked either way.

/Bork de bork bork
 
2012-08-07 05:47:28 AM  

cretinbob: you haven't been able to hunt ducks with lead shot for years


Was it buckshot? That's what I remember learning from a fark thread, that duck hunting uses buckshot and as a result there's a spray of lead.

Even if it wasn't against the law, I can't say I'd shoot lots of lead pellets into something I plan on eating.
 
2012-08-07 05:52:12 AM  
That is Al Gore-tastic!
 
2012-08-07 05:56:41 AM  

Archie Goodwin: ChiliBoots: Research showed that the combination of new bullets and new weapons caused increases in emissions of carbon dioxide, ammonia and hydrogen cyanide.

I may be going out on a limb, but I suspect that one of these byproducts may be a little more hazardous than the others.

Fire a gun, kill a planet. Nice.


I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's carbon monoxide, a byproduct of combustion.


No, bird shot. You use buck shot for hunting....well...bucks. The problem with lead bird shot is that when you miss, it drops into the body of water, and then the birds ingest it and the circle of life thing.
Yeah, lead in your food isn't great.
 
2012-08-07 05:59:57 AM  

Uisce Beatha: The US has a similar initiative: M855A1 ammunition - the lead-free replacement for the gold old "green tip" ammo.

On paper, it has similar performance characteristics - same bullet weight, same fps, same accuracy.

In reality (and I can actually talk to this - tested it in the old job) it is inferior. Its accuracy is worse. Not "can't hit the broad side of a barn," but certainly not up to even green tip's pretty low standard. Its flash characteristics are significantly worse, despite the fact that is is billed as being made with a "flash suppressing powder." And to top it off, it is more expensive. So, it makes soldiers less effective, more vulnerable, and costs more to do so. Great job, everyone!

When it comes to ammo, this is how I prefer to think green:
[i1145.photobucket.com image 496x480]
[i1145.photobucket.com image 496x480]


Is the accuracy really noticeably worse? Over what range? The Army seems to quite like the new round.

/most rounds fired aren't going to hit anything anyway, though
//at least they won't be poisoning the groundwater now
 
2012-08-07 06:01:05 AM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo:
Enjoy your lead-free crap


Enjoy your brain damage.
 
2012-08-07 06:17:02 AM  

Don Bigles: /most rounds fired aren't going to hit anything anyway, though
//at least they won't be poisoning the groundwater now


If I recall the old statistic was something like ten thousand rounds shot per kill. Which isn't unusual when you consider how much we expend in training and suppression fire.

I think the bigger problem is, because of the previous experience with the M-16 and ammunition issues, they would have a built in dislike for anything new or unproven. Especially if there is a big inconsistency of performance between the ammo types.
A variation between training loads and war time loads would be undesirable for a number of reasons.
 
2012-08-07 06:19:58 AM  
So the people who are trying to kill other ended up killing themselves?


I don't see a problem here.
 
2012-08-07 06:20:08 AM  

Don Bigles: Is the accuracy really noticeably worse? Over what range? The Army seems to quite like the new round.


The accuracy is notably worse. We tested it from 100m to 300m, and it had notable issues providing consistent groupings. The test setup was for testing suppressor accuracy on an M4 - we would shoot the weapon unsuppressed, then put on the suppressor, and test again, and check and see if the point of impact shifted, and if it did, if it shifted consistently. Multiple test iterations, with multiple ammo types. With Long Range 5.56mm ammo, we could get great results, obviously. With standard M855 ball, the groups were looser, since M855 is a 4MOA round. But it at least grouped, and behaved consistently. M855A1 was all over the place. You could still hit a man-sized target, but it didn't group consistently.

Keep in mind two things about that article: 1) It was written by the program office that produced the round. Of course they are going to say it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. 2) They are speaking mostly to the round's wounding/impact performance. I can't talk to that - we weren't testing how well it "transferred energy" aka hurt/killed someone if it hit. We were testing to see if it would actually hit in the first place.

/most rounds fired aren't going to hit anything anyway, though

True, but when a solider is shooting to actually hit someone, I want him or her to be able to.
 
2012-08-07 06:30:11 AM  

God-is-a-Taco: cretinbob: you haven't been able to hunt ducks with lead shot for years

Was it buckshot? That's what I remember learning from a fark thread, that duck hunting uses buckshot and as a result there's a spray of lead.

Even if it wasn't against the law, I can't say I'd shoot lots of lead pellets into something I plan on eating.


Ducks and geese root around the lake or river bed for gravel for their gullet. Over the years hunters had fired so many rounds it was inevitable birds were getting lead poisoning because so many of the small debris was lead shot.

Sorry if you don't like the lead replacements, but the other option was leaded ducks and geese. At least until they became threatened to the extent you wouldn't be allowed to hunt them.
 
2012-08-07 06:33:56 AM  
but won't the lead farmers be out of work?

9.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-08-07 06:44:25 AM  

wildcardjack: , but lead water pipes were stable because the oxide can be fairly stable.


You talk out of your arse.
 
2012-08-07 06:48:08 AM  
We should mine all of the lead and uranium on the planet and place it in special sealed containers.
 
2012-08-07 06:56:33 AM  

robohobo: The bigger issue here is...Sweden has an army? Lol. Terrifying.


Wikipedia is your friend, don't be scared.
 
2012-08-07 06:58:02 AM  
miss diminutive: The All-Powerful Atheismo: miss diminutive: In 1995, the Swedish government requested alternative ammunition. Four years later, the first lead-free bullets were delivered. Since then Nammo has made 360 million at its plant on the shores of Lake Vattern in southern Sweden.

I assumed they ship them out with an allen key and minus a few integral parts?

[farm5.static.flickr.com image 500x313]

Enjoy your lead-free crap

This was precisely the image I was waiting for. You don't disappoint, Atheismo.


I am sure he can please you in other ways!!!
 
2012-08-07 07:06:23 AM  
Frustrating article...how did they change the gunpowder formula?

What 'new weapons'?

Not enough info to say what made their troops sick...
 
2012-08-07 07:06:37 AM  

x23: "It was part of a range of new environmentally friendly products including biodegradable landmines."

more interested about that one honestly.


Soldiers are biodegradable.
 
2012-08-07 07:08:49 AM  
spawn73: robohobo: The bigger issue here is...Sweden has an army? Lol. Terrifying.

Wikipedia is your friend, don't be scared.


DON'T DO IT! The next thing you know, it's 8 hours later and you're reading the intricacies on international politics and the lutefisk trade!
 
2012-08-07 07:12:14 AM  

BronyMedic: spawn73: robohobo: The bigger issue here is...Sweden has an army? Lol. Terrifying.

Wikipedia is your friend, don't be scared.

DON'T DO IT! The next thing you know, it's 8 hours later and you're reading the intricacies on international politics and the lutefisk trade!


read up on the swedish tank destroyer they were using as their main tank up until fairly recently. lower profile than an SUV, no turret. looks like a modern day Stug or Jagdpanther.

i have a thing for tank destroyers. i really do. and the swedes made the coolest one.
 
2012-08-07 07:14:42 AM  

fusillade762: Lead has always been an obvious choice for ammunition. It's cheap, heavy and easy to mould into bullet shapes - it also has a lubricating effect on gun barrels when fired.

How does it sneak past the copper jacket to achieve this? And I thought lead fouled barrels?


Lead does indeed foul barrels, and all military forces generally use full metal jacketed bullets *ANYWAY*, so it's really a stupid issue.

The only real problem is that "full metal jacket" doesn't necessarily mean that there is no exposed lead. On some spitzer-type bullets, and on some handgun bullets, the lead can be exposed at the base.
 
2012-08-07 07:20:12 AM  

ComicBookGuy: miss diminutive: The All-Powerful Atheismo: miss diminutive: In 1995, the Swedish government requested alternative ammunition. Four years later, the first lead-free bullets were delivered. Since then Nammo has made 360 million at its plant on the shores of Lake Vattern in southern Sweden.

I assumed they ship them out with an allen key and minus a few integral parts?

[farm5.static.flickr.com image 500x313]

Enjoy your lead-free crap

This was precisely the image I was waiting for. You don't disappoint, Atheismo.

I am sure he can please you in other ways!!!


There's a pretty big gulf between pleasing and not disappointing.
 
2012-08-07 07:27:07 AM  

gravebayne2: but won't the lead farmers be out of work?

[9.media.tumblr.com image 500x333]


Is that Desert Punks' cousin?

www.funimation.com
 
2012-08-07 07:31:51 AM  
www.webelements.com
 
2012-08-07 07:38:47 AM  

Bob Down: wildcardjack: , but lead water pipes were stable because the oxide can be fairly stable.

You talk out of your arse.


Hey, I saw that in a John Waters movie once.
 
2012-08-07 08:08:54 AM  

robohobo: The bigger issue here is...Sweden has an army? Lol. Terrifying.


Not a big history guy, are you?
 
2012-08-07 08:12:53 AM  

dittybopper: Bob Down: wildcardjack: , but lead water pipes were stable because the oxide can be fairly stable.

You talk out of your arse.

Hey, I saw that in a John Waters movie once.


Are you sure you're not thinking of ace ventura?
 
2012-08-07 08:14:37 AM  
Crap article, it conflates bullets and cartridges to the extent that it's easier for me to assume that the BBC is not a reliable source, at least in this instance. No surprise though, we modern Britons are shiat with guns.

wildcardjack: ... but lead water pipes were stable because the oxide can be fairly stable.
Bob Down: You talk out of your arse.

What's up with that? I've seen old lead off of old roofs and it had hardly changed at all, so therefore lead does indeed seem to be stable sometimes. (I thought that was the point of it: a dense unexciting metal that doesn't do much.)
 
2012-08-07 08:15:28 AM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: kayanlau: I have more fun yelling "EAT LEAD, MOTHERFARKERS!!!!"

Yelling anything else just doesn't have that ring to it ...

EAT TRACE AMOUNTS OF HARMFUL GASES INCLUDING CARBON DIOXIDE, AMMONIA, AND HYDROGEN CYANIDE, MOTHER- HEY WHERE ARE YOU GOING? YOU NEED TO BE HERE SO I CAN COMPLETE MY SHOUT AND THEN FEED YOU HARMFUL SUBSTANCES! GODDAMNIT!


You sound like a guy that would hold a grenade too long.
deadhomersociety.files.wordpress.com
"This one's for you Kaiser Bill, special delivery from Uncle Sam and all the boys in D Company. Yeah, Johnny, Harris, Brooklyn Bob, and Reggie, yeah, even Reggie, he ain't so stuck up once you get to-"
 
2012-08-07 08:22:45 AM  
FTFA:

"But the introduction of lead-free rounds has not been without its problems. In 2009 soldiers began to report fever, headaches and joint pains after using the rounds in the Norwegian army's new assault rifle. For a time they were forced to revert to their old ammunition.

Research showed that the combination of new bullets and new weapons caused increases in emissions of carbon dioxide, ammonia and hydrogen cyanide. There was a complete redesign and Nammo claims the problems have now been solved."

To the soldiers who were irresponsibly poisoned by greedy green defense contractors I feel very sorry.

To the idiot environmentalists who intentionally poisoned the brave soldiers of Norway in order to make a buck:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH A HAHAHAhAHAHAhAHAHAHAHAAHAAAA!
 
2012-08-07 08:24:40 AM  

miss diminutive: ComicBookGuy: miss diminutive: The All-Powerful Atheismo: miss diminutive: In 1995, the Swedish government requested alternative ammunition. Four years later, the first lead-free bullets were delivered. Since then Nammo has made 360 million at its plant on the shores of Lake Vattern in southern Sweden.

I assumed they ship them out with an allen key and minus a few integral parts?

[farm5.static.flickr.com image 500x313]

Enjoy your lead-free crap

This was precisely the image I was waiting for. You don't disappoint, Atheismo.

I am sure he can please you in other ways!!!

There's a pretty big gulf between pleasing and not disappointing.


OhSnap.jpg
 
2012-08-07 08:51:15 AM  
"We can make safer weapons. We can make safer bullets." - Jocelyn Elders
 
2012-08-07 09:04:03 AM  
Hydrogen cyanide is not one of the products I would want my gunpowder to produce more of. And lead in metallic form has low bioavailability. The oxide form you find in the ground is way more soluble and bad. The major problem with lead bullets is that they tend to end up on or in the ground close to the surface, where the surface oxidizes and becomes dissolved over the course of between 20 and 500 years, depending on moisture and pH.

I've seen bullets that have turned into a white blob of fuzz (BAD) and bullets that still shine when you scrape them from civil war battlefields. The grey ones outnumber the white or tan ones by about 3 to 1.
FYI. Most lead bullets don't leach that much lead into the ground. At least, not large caliber ball ammo. The modern stuff that shatters into a billion fragments when it hits anything I'm not sure about.
 
2012-08-07 09:17:30 AM  

ChaoticLimbs: FYI. Most lead bullets don't leach that much lead into the ground. At least, not large caliber ball ammo. The modern stuff that shatters into a billion fragments when it hits anything I'm not sure about.


The stuff that shatters into a billion fragments or deforms is bad bad bad. That's one of the big deals at indoor ranges. It hits the backing and you end up getting lead dust in the air. People who work or shoot a lot in indoor ranges (this can be an issue with urban police department and such) have been found to have elevated lead levels.

NRA has an advisory program for ranges on how to mitigate it. Air filters, water filters of some kind at the bullet catch to keep the lead out of the air, etc. Plus you should always wash your hands and face after shooting indoors.

Outside, yeah, the lead can cause issues. One of the outdoor ranges I shoot at was closed for a bit to do lead reclamation. I think that just involved taking the top layer of dirt off everything and doing something with it involving science.

Anyway, it is an issue. And not just with the bullet. The primer also has lead in it. It's more of an issue indoors, but if you have people shooting a lot or working on ranges a lot it can be an issue there too.

/used to shoot lead free SS195 5.7mm.
//but only because it was what the range usually had.
 
2012-08-07 09:26:44 AM  

MythDragon: You sound like a guy that would hold a grenade too long.

"This one's for you Kaiser Bill, special delivery from Uncle Sam and all the boys in D Company. Yeah, Johnny, Harris, Brooklyn Bob, and Reggie, yeah, even Reggie, he ain't so stuck up once you get to-"


Actually, you can hold a grenade as long as you want after you pull the pin. The fuse doesn't start until you release the spoon, which generally happens when you throw the grenade, unless you "cook off" the grenade by releasing the spoon, counting to 2 or 3, then throwing it into, say, a bunker.

This doesn't apply to grenades where you pull a cord or something similar to start the fuse, like a German stielhandgranate.
 
2012-08-07 09:29:35 AM  

Uisce Beatha:

Keep in mind two things about that article: 1) It was written by the program office that produced the round. Of course they are going to say it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. 2) They are speaking mostly to the round's wounding/impact performance. I can't talk to that - we weren't testing how well it "transferred energy" aka hurt/killed someone if it hit. We were testing to see if it would actually hit in the first place.

/most rounds fired aren't going to hit anything anyway, though

True, but when a solider is shooting to actually hit someone, I want him or her to be able to.


This right here. My dad was assigned as an infantry officer to some different weapons testing programs. The logistics and ordinance folks (especially the field graders/senior DOD civilians) would talk about how amazing some new gizmo was, then the grunts would get their hands on it and come up with 500 reasons why it was not only shiat, but dangerous shiat. The problem is that these projects are run by Majors/Lt. Colonels who are a few years from retirement, and looking for jobs with the companies whose products they are supposed to be evaluating.
 
2012-08-07 09:30:47 AM  

Spade: Anyway, it is an issue. And not just with the bullet. The primer also has lead in it.


Not necessarily. Lead free primers are gradually replacing the Lead styphnate-based ones.

/My primer doesn't have lead in it.
//My primer is FFFFg black powder.
 
2012-08-07 09:53:44 AM  

fusillade762: Lead has always been an obvious choice for ammunition. It's cheap, heavy and easy to mould into bullet shapes - it also has a lubricating effect on gun barrels when fired.

How does it sneak past the copper jacket to achieve this? And I thought lead fouled barrels?


Others have covered the FMJ aspect, but lead, like aluminum and brass, is considered a 'self lubricating' metal, in that it's significantly softer than anything used on it (drill bits, rifle barrels, rifling, etc), to the point where it precludes any cutting oil or similar material.

So my understanding is that lead fouling is simply te lead lubrication from the fired bullets. The firing and push of the lead round creates enough heat and friction to melt the lead bullets outermost layer, creating a thin layer of liquid lead around and in the rifling, and it's this residue that we clean out. Well, among other things.

I couldn't find a good wiki link explanation, all the ones I saw were mostly about bearings.
 
2012-08-07 09:56:50 AM  

God-is-a-Taco: cretinbob: you haven't been able to hunt ducks with lead shot for years

Was it buckshot? That's what I remember learning from a fark thread, that duck hunting uses buckshot and as a result there's a spray of lead.

Even if it wasn't against the law, I can't say I'd shoot lots of lead pellets into something I plan on eating.


No, duck hunting doesn't use "buckshot". Buckshot is large caliber shotgun pellets, generally around .30" caliber or bigger, used for large game or more generally, self-defense use. There would only be about 9 of them in a single shell, not very many, and they are over-kill for hunting a bird weighing just a few pounds. You use *MUCH* smaller shot for that.

I've eaten plenty of things that have been shot with lead, especially unprotected, dead-soft lead round ball. There is no significant exposure, so long as you don't actually eat the bullet/shot.
 
2012-08-07 10:00:01 AM  
Finally, the perfect ammunition for mowing down a large group of hippies.
 
2012-08-07 10:02:24 AM  
We should stop using unsafe things like lead in our bullets and go right to glass and ceramic.

A glass bullet is MUCH safer. (except to the poor farker on the business end of it.)
 
2012-08-07 10:05:30 AM  
Why have I not seen the word "bismuth" yet in all this talk?
 
2012-08-07 10:09:28 AM  

socodog: We should stop using unsafe things like lead in our bullets and go right to glass and ceramic.

A glass bullet is MUCH safer. (except to the poor farker on the business end of it.)


I'd think that ceramic under that kind of shock would revert to powder, meaning you'd get copper shrapnel and sand in your gut.

I'd have suggested aluminum or steel, but a lighter weight bullet should have a flatter trajectory over short range and it's performance would suck down the line.
5.56 doesn't carry a lot of momentum as it is. Whatever is inside shouldn't weight less than the lead it replaces.
 
2012-08-07 10:16:05 AM  

cretinbob: Archie Goodwin: ChiliBoots: Research showed that the combination of new bullets and new weapons caused increases in emissions of carbon dioxide, ammonia and hydrogen cyanide.

I may be going out on a limb, but I suspect that one of these byproducts may be a little more hazardous than the others.

Fire a gun, kill a planet. Nice.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's carbon monoxide, a byproduct of combustion.


No, bird shot. You use buck shot for hunting....well...bucks. The problem with lead bird shot is that when you miss, it drops into the body of water, and then the birds ingest it and the circle of life thing.
Yeah, lead in your food isn't great
.


Yep, that's why these guys are in trouble in New Hampshire. They like to eat lead for some reason. We can't use small lead weights, jigs, ect. when fishing in NH anymore.

Of course, there are plenty of loons moving up here from massachusets, so we are getting in some replacements of a sort.

farm8.staticflickr.com">

 
2012-08-07 10:16:42 AM  

dittybopper: I've eaten plenty of things that have been shot with lead, especially unprotected, dead-soft lead round ball. There is no significant exposure, so long as you don't actually eat the bullet/shot.


I would rather find a lead ball in my meal than a steel or tungsten ball. The lead will deform when chewed, steel or tungsten not so much.
 
2012-08-07 10:26:56 AM  

Father_Jack: BronyMedic: spawn73: robohobo: The bigger issue here is...Sweden has an army? Lol. Terrifying.

Wikipedia is your friend, don't be scared.

DON'T DO IT! The next thing you know, it's 8 hours later and you're reading the intricacies on international politics and the lutefisk trade!

read up on the swedish tank destroyer they were using as their main tank up until fairly recently. lower profile than an SUV, no turret. looks like a modern day Stug or Jagdpanther.

i have a thing for tank destroyers. i really do. and the swedes made the coolest one.


That the old S model? Built a plastic model as a kid, hadn't thought about it in decades...

Not sure about that one, but it seems to me you want a LITTLE gun traverse, so you don't have to turn the whole vehicle to aim...
 
2012-08-07 10:43:01 AM  
Eco-friendly munitions? Rocks. Rocks are eco-friendly. They're 'natural' and 'organic' and cheap. I say we have future wars where soldiers are issued sling shots and bags of rocks.

Of course, all of those other explosive thingies might hurt the environment a tad. Folks are still having a few problems with land mines left over from Vietnam.

Then again, a single neutron bomb can wipe out hundreds of thousands without disturbing buildings (or was it the Cobalt Bomb?) by a burst of neutrons, which leaves the infrastructure intact but kills anything with a spinal cord. It doesn't leave behind decades worth of radiation either. PLUS human and animal corpses, given enough time, turn into mulch, so they're 'eco-friendly'.

THAT sounds even more eco-friendly than blasting millions of copper jacketed bullets around, throwing in those nasty, polluting rockets, missiles and grenades and don't forget the gobs of pollution caused by the exhaust of fighter jets and assorted other combat aircraft.

Of course, we could all have our wars done with paintballs.

Then again, how eco-friendly are those capsules that enclose the paint?
 
2012-08-07 10:44:24 AM  

Oznog: Well, AFAIK the replacement for lead would be tungsten. Actually, tungsten can be like 80% denser than lead, which is sort of a "plus". Tungsten is one of the best armor-piercing/ground-penetrating/wall-penetrating tips because it's hard. But if it doesn't deform like lead, it won't do as much damage when it actually hits a body. True expanding bullets are prohibited by Geneva Conventions, but AFAIK the military bullets still increase punch quite a bit via deformation.

Let's look up the real problem, commodity prices:
ferro tungsten (something like 75%-85% tungsten) is currently $52/kg.
Lead is currently $1.85/kg.

Yeah, we're not gonna be using tungsten anytime soon. We shoot a LOT more bullets than you.


Mine asteroids. Duh.
 
2012-08-07 10:50:47 AM  

Rik01:
Of course, we could all have our wars done with paintballs.

Then again, how eco-friendly are those capsules that enclose the paint?


It would certainly make the more exiting parts of military service safer and more fun. And paintballs are pretty environmentally friendly. I think the ball itself is mostly gelatin, and the paint is non-toxic and water soluble. Makes sense to me.
 
2012-08-07 10:57:33 AM  

dittybopper: MythDragon: You sound like a guy that would hold a grenade too long.

"This one's for you Kaiser Bill, special delivery from Uncle Sam and all the boys in D Company. Yeah, Johnny, Harris, Brooklyn Bob, and Reggie, yeah, even Reggie, he ain't so stuck up once you get to-"

Actually, you can hold a grenade as long as you want after you pull the pin. The fuse doesn't start until you release the spoon, which generally happens when you throw the grenade, unless you "cook off" the grenade by releasing the spoon, counting to 2 or 3, then throwing it into, say, a bunker.

This doesn't apply to grenades where you pull a cord or something similar to start the fuse, like a German stielhandgranate.


Yes, thank you very much Mr. Munitions. Thank you for explaining the science of grenades and ruining the context of my joke.
But if you had looked at that sceen cap, you'd see that the spoon is no longer on the grenade, meaning the acid capsule has been struck, and detonation has been initiated.
 
2012-08-07 10:58:39 AM  
I'm surprised the Swedes still have an army.
 
2012-08-07 10:59:30 AM  

SomeTexan: Why have I not seen the word "bismuth" yet in all this talk?


I was wondering that myself. I know its used for pellets and shotguns alot, maybe its not as useful for rifle rounds?
 
2012-08-07 11:01:47 AM  

devildog123: Rik01:
Of course, we could all have our wars done with paintballs.

Then again, how eco-friendly are those capsules that enclose the paint?

It would certainly make the more exiting parts of military service safer and more fun. And paintballs are pretty environmentally friendly. I think the ball itself is mostly gelatin, and the paint is non-toxic and water soluble. Makes sense to me.


New Rules of War would have to be drafted. Such as: No nut shots.
 
2012-08-07 11:24:54 AM  
Where's all this lead come from anyway? Is it a man-made chemical not naturally present in the environment?
 
2012-08-07 11:34:40 AM  

Marshal805: I'm surprised the Swedes still have an army.


Why?

It's a neutral country, so they have to be self reliant, militarily speaking. That's the big cost of being neutral. The payoff, of course, is not getting dragged into wars due to pacts.

They have some wicked equipment to boot:
The Gotland class submarine has been credited with repeatedly "sinking" the USS Ronald Reagan in wargames, much to the consternation of the US navy.
 
2012-08-07 11:46:31 AM  

StarlingFive: SomeTexan: Why have I not seen the word "bismuth" yet in all this talk?

I was wondering that myself. I know its used for pellets and shotguns alot, maybe its not as useful for rifle rounds?


Bismuth is quite a bit more expensive than lead, steel or even copper. You could use it but it would be very expensive.

As a note, many varmit bullets are now lead free as some places require it.

Also shooting steel core bullets is currently against the rules on public lands as it is a fire hazard.
 
2012-08-07 11:49:54 AM  

bluefoxicy: Where's all this lead come from anyway? Is it a man-made chemical not naturally present in the environment?


No. Humans are not making a whole lot of lead. Lead is an element.
Its not man made, its man concentrated and purified. It is very bad to eat.

I hope this helps with your 3rd grade science exam.
 
2012-08-07 12:06:14 PM  

SomeTexan: Why have I not seen the word "bismuth" yet in all this talk?


All the cool kids stopped using it. We've gone to trismuth.
 
2012-08-07 12:12:03 PM  
The Japanese Army: Green before it was cool
pic50.picturetrail.com
 
2012-08-07 02:15:03 PM  

Oznog: Well, AFAIK the replacement for lead would be tungsten. Actually, tungsten can be like 80% denser than lead, which is sort of a "plus". Tungsten is one of the best armor-piercing/ground-penetrating/wall-penetrating tips because it's hard. But if it doesn't deform like lead, it won't do as much damage when it actually hits a body. True expanding bullets are prohibited by Geneva Conventions, but AFAIK the military bullets still increase punch quite a bit via deformation.

Let's look up the real problem, commodity prices:
ferro tungsten (something like 75%-85% tungsten) is currently $52/kg.
Lead is currently $1.85/kg.

Yeah, we're not gonna be using tungsten anytime soon. We shoot a LOT more bullets than you.


Weight is an immediate issue. An MMG team is already carrying a farkload of weight, and using something that's denser than lead means even more weight in a pack that can weigh upwards of 45kg (upwards of 100 pounds).

So, I'm all for the environment but ... fark.That.Shiat.
 
2012-08-07 02:19:56 PM  

Magorn: The Japanese Army: Green before it was cool
[pic50.picturetrail.com image 533x400]


Without anything in that photo to give it scale, and since its japanese im just going to assume thats for some sort of dildo gun.
 
2012-08-07 02:50:25 PM  

MythDragon: You sound like a guy that would hold a grenade too long.
[deadhomersociety.files.wordpress.com image 512x384]
"This one's for you Kaiser Bill, special delivery from Uncle Sam and all the boys in D Company. Yeah, Johnny, Harris, Brooklyn Bob, and Reggie, yeah, even Reggie, he ain't so stuck up once you get to-"


Actually, as long as you keep the safety spoon pressed, it's safe. The fuse doesn't start when you pull the pin.
 
2012-08-07 02:53:36 PM  
dittybopper:

/Shakes grenade filled fist
 
2012-08-07 03:39:29 PM  

ConfederatedDunce: MythDragon: You sound like a guy that would hold a grenade too long.
[deadhomersociety.files.wordpress.com image 512x384]
"This one's for you Kaiser Bill, special delivery from Uncle Sam and all the boys in D Company. Yeah, Johnny, Harris, Brooklyn Bob, and Reggie, yeah, even Reggie, he ain't so stuck up once you get to-"

Actually, as long as you keep the safety spoon pressed, it's safe. The fuse doesn't start when you pull the pin.


Goddammit, again with this. Check the picture and tell me where you see the spoon.

Don't tell me about grenades, son. I've been hucking grenades for 18 years.
Well, I hucked grenades 18 years ago, but I might do another one day...
 
2012-08-07 03:53:13 PM  

Cyno01: Magorn: The Japanese Army: Green before it was cool
[pic50.picturetrail.com image 533x400]

Without anything in that photo to give it scale, and since its japanese im just going to assume thats for some sort of dildo gun.


That's a fair assumption to make.
 
2012-08-07 04:03:44 PM  

MythDragon: Goddammit, again with this. Check the picture and tell me where you see the spoon.


You can't see the spoon because like he's supposed to, the spoon is being held by his palm, between the thumb and fore-finger.

Also, that appears to be a Mills bomb, a grenade first introduced in WWI, and they don't have a prominent top like most US grenades, so you wouldn't really see the spoon as much as you would with a Mark II Pineapple grenade.
 
2012-08-07 04:55:03 PM  

dittybopper: MythDragon: Goddammit, again with this. Check the picture and tell me where you see the spoon.

You can't see the spoon because like he's supposed to, the spoon is being held by his palm, between the thumb and fore-finger.

Also, that appears to be a Mills bomb, a grenade first introduced in WWI, and they don't have a prominent top like most US grenades, so you wouldn't really see the spoon as much as you would with a Mark II Pineapple grenade.


Well if you had seen that episode of the Simpsons, you'd know that he had, indeed, released the spoon.
 
2012-08-07 11:05:58 PM  

StarlingFive: SomeTexan: Why have I not seen the word "bismuth" yet in all this talk?

I was wondering that myself. I know its used for pellets and shotguns alot, maybe its not as useful for rifle rounds?


I know they are giving it a try in M16 rounds, and you can buy a handful of rifle bullets for handloading, I think, but I can think of only one reason not to use it: last time I checked, bismuth birdshot shells were about 4-5 time as expensive. Whether this is still the case, I don't know.
 
2012-08-07 11:06:06 PM  

Yaxe: Oznog: Well, AFAIK the replacement for lead would be tungsten. Actually, tungsten can be like 80% denser than lead, which is sort of a "plus". Tungsten is one of the best armor-piercing/ground-penetrating/wall-penetrating tips because it's hard. But if it doesn't deform like lead, it won't do as much damage when it actually hits a body. True expanding bullets are prohibited by Geneva Conventions, but AFAIK the military bullets still increase punch quite a bit via deformation.

Let's look up the real problem, commodity prices:
ferro tungsten (something like 75%-85% tungsten) is currently $52/kg.
Lead is currently $1.85/kg.

Yeah, we're not gonna be using tungsten anytime soon. We shoot a LOT more bullets than you.

Weight is an immediate issue. An MMG team is already carrying a farkload of weight, and using something that's denser than lead means even more weight in a pack that can weigh upwards of 45kg (upwards of 100 pounds).

So, I'm all for the environment but ... fark.That.Shiat.


Just because it's denser doesn't mean it's heavier... Your 62 grain 5.56 ball is still going to weight 62 grains and 7.62x51mm is still going to be 147 grains. Think of it this way... What's heavier? A pound of lead, or a pound of feathers?

You'd have to use more jacket material so the bullet is the same length because if it's too short your ballistic coefficient is going to gargle balls. Also, good luck getting any kind of fragmentation out of tungsten. Green Tip sucks bad enough.
 
2012-08-07 11:10:34 PM  

MythDragon: Well if you had seen that episode of the Simpsons, you'd know that he had, indeed, released the spoon.


That's my new battle cry: "Release the spoon!"
 
2012-08-08 10:29:17 AM  

MythDragon: dittybopper: MythDragon: Goddammit, again with this. Check the picture and tell me where you see the spoon.

You can't see the spoon because like he's supposed to, the spoon is being held by his palm, between the thumb and fore-finger.

Also, that appears to be a Mills bomb, a grenade first introduced in WWI, and they don't have a prominent top like most US grenades, so you wouldn't really see the spoon as much as you would with a Mark II Pineapple grenade.

Well if you had seen that episode of the Simpsons, you'd know that he had, indeed, released the spoon.


Meh. I missed it then. Generally, I haven't watched the Simpsons regularly since it was part of the Tracy Ullman show.

/Manage to catch an episode here and there.
 
Displayed 93 of 93 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter








In Other Media
  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report