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(BBC)   Sweden makes eco-friendly lead-free bullets for their army. They ended up poisoning the soldiers that fired them, though   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 93
    More: Fail, Sweden, shooting ranges, British Military, Swedish Government, joint pain, BAE Systems, Environmental Protection Agency, British troops  
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15085 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Aug 2012 at 3:43 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-07 12:20:06 AM
And then they fixed the issue of soldiers getting sick. So they did get what they were after.
 
2012-08-07 12:21:42 AM
Lead has always been an obvious choice for ammunition. It's cheap, heavy and easy to mould into bullet shapes - it also has a lubricating effect on gun barrels when fired.

How does it sneak past the copper jacket to achieve this? And I thought lead fouled barrels?
 
2012-08-07 12:26:34 AM
you haven't been able to hunt ducks with lead shot for years
 
2012-08-07 01:49:37 AM
Research showed that the combination of new bullets and new weapons caused increases in emissions of carbon dioxide, ammonia and hydrogen cyanide.

I may be going out on a limb, but I suspect that one of these byproducts may be a little more hazardous than the others.
 
2012-08-07 02:53:28 AM

ChiliBoots: Research showed that the combination of new bullets and new weapons caused increases in emissions of carbon dioxide, ammonia and hydrogen cyanide.

I may be going out on a limb, but I suspect that one of these byproducts may be a little more hazardous than the others.


Is it the carbon dioxide? It's the carbon dioxide, isn't it?
 
2012-08-07 03:49:57 AM
In 1995, the Swedish government requested alternative ammunition. Four years later, the first lead-free bullets were delivered. Since then Nammo has made 360 million at its plant on the shores of Lake Vattern in southern Sweden.

I assumed they ship them out with an allen key and minus a few integral parts?
 
2012-08-07 03:51:46 AM

ChiliBoots: Research showed that the combination of new bullets and new weapons caused increases in emissions of carbon dioxide, ammonia and hydrogen cyanide.

I may be going out on a limb, but I suspect that one of these byproducts may be a little more hazardous than the others.


Fire a gun, kill a planet. Nice.
 
2012-08-07 03:51:50 AM

miss diminutive: In 1995, the Swedish government requested alternative ammunition. Four years later, the first lead-free bullets were delivered. Since then Nammo has made 360 million at its plant on the shores of Lake Vattern in southern Sweden.

I assumed they ship them out with an allen key and minus a few integral parts?


farm5.static.flickr.com

Enjoy your lead-free crap
 
2012-08-07 03:57:48 AM

The All-Powerful Atheismo: miss diminutive: In 1995, the Swedish government requested alternative ammunition. Four years later, the first lead-free bullets were delivered. Since then Nammo has made 360 million at its plant on the shores of Lake Vattern in southern Sweden.

I assumed they ship them out with an allen key and minus a few integral parts?

[farm5.static.flickr.com image 500x313]

Enjoy your lead-free crap


This was precisely the image I was waiting for. You don't disappoint, Atheismo.
 
2012-08-07 03:59:18 AM

miss diminutive: The All-Powerful Atheismo: miss diminutive: In 1995, the Swedish government requested alternative ammunition. Four years later, the first lead-free bullets were delivered. Since then Nammo has made 360 million at its plant on the shores of Lake Vattern in southern Sweden.

I assumed they ship them out with an allen key and minus a few integral parts?

[farm5.static.flickr.com image 500x313]

Enjoy your lead-free crap

This was precisely the image I was waiting for. You don't disappoint, Atheismo.


Not when it comes to Simpsons/Futurama/Adult Swim references...

don't ask me where I do disappoint.
 
2012-08-07 04:03:06 AM
Well, AFAIK the replacement for lead would be tungsten. Actually, tungsten can be like 80% denser than lead, which is sort of a "plus". Tungsten is one of the best armor-piercing/ground-penetrating/wall-penetrating tips because it's hard. But if it doesn't deform like lead, it won't do as much damage when it actually hits a body. True expanding bullets are prohibited by Geneva Conventions, but AFAIK the military bullets still increase punch quite a bit via deformation.

Let's look up the real problem, commodity prices:
ferro tungsten (something like 75%-85% tungsten) is currently $52/kg.
Lead is currently $1.85/kg.

Yeah, we're not gonna be using tungsten anytime soon. We shoot a LOT more bullets than you.
 
2012-08-07 04:07:20 AM
Oznog: True expanding bullets are prohibited by Geneva Conventions, but AFAIK the military bullets still increase punch quite a bit via deformation.

The Hague Convention of 1899, actually. It's Declaration III.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.
 
2012-08-07 04:22:32 AM
Fine, Sweden, have it your way, we'll quit using lead.

Depleted uranium it is.
 
2012-08-07 04:33:32 AM
It sounds like those bullets that didn't quite work as planned need to be sent to your enemy instead..
Make a lot in the caliber they use and sneak them into their stockpile.. They shoot at you, but you hit them.

Would that make them a chemical weapon though?

/I still use lead pellets in my air rifle
 
2012-08-07 04:34:43 AM
bullets kill...
 
2012-08-07 04:34:51 AM

Mr. Shabooboo: It sounds like those bullets that didn't quite work as planned need to be sent to your enemy instead..
Make a lot in the caliber they use and sneak them into their stockpile.. They shoot at you, but you hit them.

Would that make them a chemical weapon though?

/I still use lead pellets in my air rifle


If we give them all the lead bullets, then they're just going to shoot them at us, then we'll be stuck with all the lead
 
2012-08-07 04:45:44 AM
I have more fun yelling "EAT LEAD, MOTHERFARKERS!!!!"

Yelling anything else just doesn't have that ring to it ...
 
2012-08-07 04:53:49 AM

kayanlau: I have more fun yelling "EAT LEAD, MOTHERFARKERS!!!!"

Yelling anything else just doesn't have that ring to it ...


EAT TRACE AMOUNTS OF HARMFUL GASES INCLUDING CARBON DIOXIDE, AMMONIA, AND HYDROGEN CYANIDE, MOTHER- HEY WHERE ARE YOU GOING? YOU NEED TO BE HERE SO I CAN COMPLETE MY SHOUT AND THEN FEED YOU HARMFUL SUBSTANCES! GODDAMNIT!
 
2012-08-07 04:58:23 AM
The bigger issue here is...Sweden has an army? Lol. Terrifying.
 
2012-08-07 05:12:47 AM
Okay, what's the lifespan of a full copper jacket in the environment?

I've always thought the concern over metallic lead was overblown. It has to oxidize first to make a soluble agent, but lead water pipes were stable because the oxide can be fairly stable. Burning it in gasoline, making paint that people come into contact with, etc, all were bad ideas.

And they're right, most of the army ammo does get used at a firing range, with large berms of dirt for backstops. Maybe once a year you'll have to dig it up and run it past a screen. That'll keep the lead levels down because you'll head off oxidation.
 
2012-08-07 05:15:03 AM
The US has a similar initiative: M855A1 ammunition - the lead-free replacement for the gold old "green tip" ammo.

On paper, it has similar performance characteristics - same bullet weight, same fps, same accuracy.

In reality (and I can actually talk to this - tested it in the old job) it is inferior. Its accuracy is worse. Not "can't hit the broad side of a barn," but certainly not up to even green tip's pretty low standard. Its flash characteristics are significantly worse, despite the fact that is is billed as being made with a "flash suppressing powder." And to top it off, it is more expensive. So, it makes soldiers less effective, more vulnerable, and costs more to do so. Great job, everyone!

When it comes to ammo, this is how I prefer to think green:
i1145.photobucket.com
i1145.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-07 05:15:08 AM

robohobo: The bigger issue here is...Sweden has an army? Lol. Terrifying.


Wondered when someone would get around to this.
 
x23
2012-08-07 05:37:17 AM
"It was part of a range of new environmentally friendly products including biodegradable landmines."

more interested about that one honestly.
 
2012-08-07 05:39:16 AM
Looks like the Swedish army's bullets are borked either way.

/Bork de bork bork
 
2012-08-07 05:47:28 AM

cretinbob: you haven't been able to hunt ducks with lead shot for years


Was it buckshot? That's what I remember learning from a fark thread, that duck hunting uses buckshot and as a result there's a spray of lead.

Even if it wasn't against the law, I can't say I'd shoot lots of lead pellets into something I plan on eating.
 
2012-08-07 05:52:12 AM
That is Al Gore-tastic!
 
2012-08-07 05:56:41 AM

Archie Goodwin: ChiliBoots: Research showed that the combination of new bullets and new weapons caused increases in emissions of carbon dioxide, ammonia and hydrogen cyanide.

I may be going out on a limb, but I suspect that one of these byproducts may be a little more hazardous than the others.

Fire a gun, kill a planet. Nice.


I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's carbon monoxide, a byproduct of combustion.


No, bird shot. You use buck shot for hunting....well...bucks. The problem with lead bird shot is that when you miss, it drops into the body of water, and then the birds ingest it and the circle of life thing.
Yeah, lead in your food isn't great.
 
2012-08-07 05:59:57 AM

Uisce Beatha: The US has a similar initiative: M855A1 ammunition - the lead-free replacement for the gold old "green tip" ammo.

On paper, it has similar performance characteristics - same bullet weight, same fps, same accuracy.

In reality (and I can actually talk to this - tested it in the old job) it is inferior. Its accuracy is worse. Not "can't hit the broad side of a barn," but certainly not up to even green tip's pretty low standard. Its flash characteristics are significantly worse, despite the fact that is is billed as being made with a "flash suppressing powder." And to top it off, it is more expensive. So, it makes soldiers less effective, more vulnerable, and costs more to do so. Great job, everyone!

When it comes to ammo, this is how I prefer to think green:
[i1145.photobucket.com image 496x480]
[i1145.photobucket.com image 496x480]


Is the accuracy really noticeably worse? Over what range? The Army seems to quite like the new round.

/most rounds fired aren't going to hit anything anyway, though
//at least they won't be poisoning the groundwater now
 
2012-08-07 06:01:05 AM

The All-Powerful Atheismo:
Enjoy your lead-free crap


Enjoy your brain damage.
 
2012-08-07 06:17:02 AM

Don Bigles: /most rounds fired aren't going to hit anything anyway, though
//at least they won't be poisoning the groundwater now


If I recall the old statistic was something like ten thousand rounds shot per kill. Which isn't unusual when you consider how much we expend in training and suppression fire.

I think the bigger problem is, because of the previous experience with the M-16 and ammunition issues, they would have a built in dislike for anything new or unproven. Especially if there is a big inconsistency of performance between the ammo types.
A variation between training loads and war time loads would be undesirable for a number of reasons.
 
2012-08-07 06:19:58 AM
So the people who are trying to kill other ended up killing themselves?


I don't see a problem here.
 
2012-08-07 06:20:08 AM

Don Bigles: Is the accuracy really noticeably worse? Over what range? The Army seems to quite like the new round.


The accuracy is notably worse. We tested it from 100m to 300m, and it had notable issues providing consistent groupings. The test setup was for testing suppressor accuracy on an M4 - we would shoot the weapon unsuppressed, then put on the suppressor, and test again, and check and see if the point of impact shifted, and if it did, if it shifted consistently. Multiple test iterations, with multiple ammo types. With Long Range 5.56mm ammo, we could get great results, obviously. With standard M855 ball, the groups were looser, since M855 is a 4MOA round. But it at least grouped, and behaved consistently. M855A1 was all over the place. You could still hit a man-sized target, but it didn't group consistently.

Keep in mind two things about that article: 1) It was written by the program office that produced the round. Of course they are going to say it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. 2) They are speaking mostly to the round's wounding/impact performance. I can't talk to that - we weren't testing how well it "transferred energy" aka hurt/killed someone if it hit. We were testing to see if it would actually hit in the first place.

/most rounds fired aren't going to hit anything anyway, though

True, but when a solider is shooting to actually hit someone, I want him or her to be able to.
 
2012-08-07 06:30:11 AM

God-is-a-Taco: cretinbob: you haven't been able to hunt ducks with lead shot for years

Was it buckshot? That's what I remember learning from a fark thread, that duck hunting uses buckshot and as a result there's a spray of lead.

Even if it wasn't against the law, I can't say I'd shoot lots of lead pellets into something I plan on eating.


Ducks and geese root around the lake or river bed for gravel for their gullet. Over the years hunters had fired so many rounds it was inevitable birds were getting lead poisoning because so many of the small debris was lead shot.

Sorry if you don't like the lead replacements, but the other option was leaded ducks and geese. At least until they became threatened to the extent you wouldn't be allowed to hunt them.
 
2012-08-07 06:33:56 AM
but won't the lead farmers be out of work?

9.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-08-07 06:44:25 AM

wildcardjack: , but lead water pipes were stable because the oxide can be fairly stable.


You talk out of your arse.
 
2012-08-07 06:48:08 AM
We should mine all of the lead and uranium on the planet and place it in special sealed containers.
 
2012-08-07 06:56:33 AM

robohobo: The bigger issue here is...Sweden has an army? Lol. Terrifying.


Wikipedia is your friend, don't be scared.
 
2012-08-07 06:58:02 AM
miss diminutive: The All-Powerful Atheismo: miss diminutive: In 1995, the Swedish government requested alternative ammunition. Four years later, the first lead-free bullets were delivered. Since then Nammo has made 360 million at its plant on the shores of Lake Vattern in southern Sweden.

I assumed they ship them out with an allen key and minus a few integral parts?

[farm5.static.flickr.com image 500x313]

Enjoy your lead-free crap

This was precisely the image I was waiting for. You don't disappoint, Atheismo.


I am sure he can please you in other ways!!!
 
2012-08-07 07:06:23 AM
Frustrating article...how did they change the gunpowder formula?

What 'new weapons'?

Not enough info to say what made their troops sick...
 
2012-08-07 07:06:37 AM

x23: "It was part of a range of new environmentally friendly products including biodegradable landmines."

more interested about that one honestly.


Soldiers are biodegradable.
 
2012-08-07 07:08:49 AM
spawn73: robohobo: The bigger issue here is...Sweden has an army? Lol. Terrifying.

Wikipedia is your friend, don't be scared.


DON'T DO IT! The next thing you know, it's 8 hours later and you're reading the intricacies on international politics and the lutefisk trade!
 
2012-08-07 07:12:14 AM

BronyMedic: spawn73: robohobo: The bigger issue here is...Sweden has an army? Lol. Terrifying.

Wikipedia is your friend, don't be scared.

DON'T DO IT! The next thing you know, it's 8 hours later and you're reading the intricacies on international politics and the lutefisk trade!


read up on the swedish tank destroyer they were using as their main tank up until fairly recently. lower profile than an SUV, no turret. looks like a modern day Stug or Jagdpanther.

i have a thing for tank destroyers. i really do. and the swedes made the coolest one.
 
2012-08-07 07:14:42 AM

fusillade762: Lead has always been an obvious choice for ammunition. It's cheap, heavy and easy to mould into bullet shapes - it also has a lubricating effect on gun barrels when fired.

How does it sneak past the copper jacket to achieve this? And I thought lead fouled barrels?


Lead does indeed foul barrels, and all military forces generally use full metal jacketed bullets *ANYWAY*, so it's really a stupid issue.

The only real problem is that "full metal jacket" doesn't necessarily mean that there is no exposed lead. On some spitzer-type bullets, and on some handgun bullets, the lead can be exposed at the base.
 
2012-08-07 07:20:12 AM

ComicBookGuy: miss diminutive: The All-Powerful Atheismo: miss diminutive: In 1995, the Swedish government requested alternative ammunition. Four years later, the first lead-free bullets were delivered. Since then Nammo has made 360 million at its plant on the shores of Lake Vattern in southern Sweden.

I assumed they ship them out with an allen key and minus a few integral parts?

[farm5.static.flickr.com image 500x313]

Enjoy your lead-free crap

This was precisely the image I was waiting for. You don't disappoint, Atheismo.

I am sure he can please you in other ways!!!


There's a pretty big gulf between pleasing and not disappointing.
 
2012-08-07 07:27:07 AM

gravebayne2: but won't the lead farmers be out of work?

[9.media.tumblr.com image 500x333]


Is that Desert Punks' cousin?

www.funimation.com
 
2012-08-07 07:31:51 AM
www.webelements.com
 
2012-08-07 07:38:47 AM

Bob Down: wildcardjack: , but lead water pipes were stable because the oxide can be fairly stable.

You talk out of your arse.


Hey, I saw that in a John Waters movie once.
 
2012-08-07 08:08:54 AM

robohobo: The bigger issue here is...Sweden has an army? Lol. Terrifying.


Not a big history guy, are you?
 
2012-08-07 08:12:53 AM

dittybopper: Bob Down: wildcardjack: , but lead water pipes were stable because the oxide can be fairly stable.

You talk out of your arse.

Hey, I saw that in a John Waters movie once.


Are you sure you're not thinking of ace ventura?
 
2012-08-07 08:14:37 AM
Crap article, it conflates bullets and cartridges to the extent that it's easier for me to assume that the BBC is not a reliable source, at least in this instance. No surprise though, we modern Britons are shiat with guns.

wildcardjack: ... but lead water pipes were stable because the oxide can be fairly stable.
Bob Down: You talk out of your arse.

What's up with that? I've seen old lead off of old roofs and it had hardly changed at all, so therefore lead does indeed seem to be stable sometimes. (I thought that was the point of it: a dense unexciting metal that doesn't do much.)
 
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