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(Bloomberg)   You might have noticed Mitt Romney skipped Italy on his big "I love Europe" tour. You'll never guess why. Hint: It involves Bain Capital, privatization, and tax dodging   (bloomberg.com) divider line 122
    More: Obvious, Mitt Romney, Italy, Europe, Politics of Italy, document review, leveraged buyouts, Mario Draghi, La Repubblica  
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6434 clicks; posted to Politics » on 06 Aug 2012 at 3:48 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-06 05:04:29 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Cletus C.: So, dude buys a telephone directory company. You're going, dude, a telephone directory company? Are you serious? Can't you see into the future? Those things are doomed.

Dude sells telephone directory company for a big profit. You're going, dude, I see now. You're farking brilliant. No wonder you're so rich and successful.

Taxes stuff? See story. Common practice in the Old Countries, people.

Fallout? LIttle diid successful business person know being rich and successful is to be despised in 2012 America.

Yep, making money is to be praised no matter how it is made. America has one value, and one value alone: Money. The more money involved the better something or someone is. No other criteria are needed.


If you're being sarcastic, and I think you are, what are you doing trying to take other people's money, Mr. Money Hater?
 
2012-08-06 05:04:31 PM  
I searched that article really hard for impropriety on Bain's part and came up completely empty. I don't like Romney, I particularly hate Bain and its practices but how the fark is this an example of how either Bain or Romney is bad?

Italian regulators raised concerns that the price was manipulated and investors traded on inside information and probed alleged conflicts of interest.

Show me this is true, or I'll show you my who gives a fark face.
 
2012-08-06 05:05:40 PM  

max_pooper:

That's some pretty lame BSABSVR.


What is that?
 
2012-08-06 05:08:00 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Yep, making money is to be praised no matter how it is made.


Don't be silly, making money is to be criticized no matter how it is made. Context is completely irrelevant.
 
2012-08-06 05:10:23 PM  

max_pooper: IamSoSmart_S_M_R_T: Cletus C.: Fallout? LIttle diid successful business person know being rich and successful is to be despised in 2012 America.

I don't despise his wealth or success, he just seems out of touch with the lower and middle classes. Just like Obama and all of the Congresscritters to be honest, they're insulated from the day to day struggles of those who are less fortunate.

That's some pretty lame BSABSVR.


Ahh, I googled it. So where did I suggest voting for Romney? Because, re-reading my post it would appear that I'm not pro-Republican at all.

I actually vote Independent/anti-incumbent whenever possible, but thanks for assuming.
 
2012-08-06 05:10:37 PM  

Cletus C.: Philip Francis Queeg: Cletus C.: So, dude buys a telephone directory company. You're going, dude, a telephone directory company? Are you serious? Can't you see into the future? Those things are doomed.

Dude sells telephone directory company for a big profit. You're going, dude, I see now. You're farking brilliant. No wonder you're so rich and successful.

Taxes stuff? See story. Common practice in the Old Countries, people.

Fallout? LIttle diid successful business person know being rich and successful is to be despised in 2012 America.

Yep, making money is to be praised no matter how it is made. America has one value, and one value alone: Money. The more money involved the better something or someone is. No other criteria are needed.

If you're being sarcastic, and I think you are, what are you doing trying to take other people's money, Mr. Money Hater?


I temper my attempts to provide for myself with ethics and morals. I don't look at a venture as commendable simply because it is profitable. I don't look at the rich as being a noble class to be praised simply because they have accumulated wealth. I also understand that puts me well outside of the mainstream in modern America.
 
2012-08-06 05:10:55 PM  

Cletus C.: Fallout? LIttle diid successful business person know being rich and successful is to be despised in 2012 America.


America? Romney is welcome in America. We're talking about Italy not being too happy with him and his "success".

Jesus, all a rich person has to do is go for his zipper and people are all there with a pot saying "Carry that water for you sir?"
 
2012-08-06 05:11:02 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Wouldn't this be proof that we need to start imposing restrictions on LLCs run through known tax havens? Say, a baseline 70% rate to discourage tax evasion.

No, don't you get it! This means we need to have a 0% tax, otherwise no company will do business here


But zero percent taxes might not generate the jobs fast enough! We should have NEGATIVE tax rates on rich people!
 
2012-08-06 05:12:38 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Bain moved the profits to a sub in Luxembourg, which TFA says is a common corporate strategy to avoid high taxes. It would have been a breach of Bain's fiduciary duty to its investors to not take actions that would legally (and this appears to have been legal) reduce tax liability. And romney, to the extent he personally profited from the deal, would have paid taxes in the US. TFA mentions nothing about taxation of Romneys comp or profits related to this transaction.


So this is all just a little misunderstanding and Italy doesn't have a leg to stand on and Romney avoided the country because he hates chicken pomodoro.
 
2012-08-06 05:17:22 PM  

IamSoSmart_S_M_R_T: max_pooper: IamSoSmart_S_M_R_T: Cletus C.: Fallout? LIttle diid successful business person know being rich and successful is to be despised in 2012 America.

I don't despise his wealth or success, he just seems out of touch with the lower and middle classes. Just like Obama and all of the Congresscritters to be honest, they're insulated from the day to day struggles of those who are less fortunate.

That's some pretty lame BSABSVR.

Ahh, I googled it. So where did I suggest voting for Romney? Because, re-reading my post it would appear that I'm not pro-Republican at all.

I actually vote Independent/anti-incumbent whenever possible, but thanks for assuming.


There is no logical way to equate Obama with Romney when talking about out of touch he is with the middle class. Romney was born to wealth that only few in this country ever see. He has spent his entire life completely insulated from the lower and middle class in his bubble of luxury.

Obama was raised by a solidly middle class single mother and grandmother and only became rich selling books later in life.

These two candidates are not, nor ever have been be equal on understanding of the struggles of the lower and middle class.

If you don't want to be seen as a Romney water carrier, do not say stuff so blatantly baseless that the only assumption one can make is that you are carrying water for Romney.
 
2012-08-06 05:18:35 PM  
You might have noticed that Romney skipped 90% of the countries in Europe on his tour. It might have something to do with being busy and not having time to do more.

And quite frankly, I don't really give a damn what most of Europe thinks anyway.

And if you live in Europe, I fully expect you not to give a damn what most of America thinks of you.
 
2012-08-06 05:23:49 PM  

randomjsa: You might have noticed that Romney skipped 90% of the countries in Europe on his tour. It might have something to do with being busy and not having time to do more.

And quite frankly, I don't really give a damn what most of Europe thinks anyway.

And if you live in Europe, I fully expect you not to give a damn what most of America thinks of you.


I just want people to know, Mitt Romney did actually skip around 90% of the countries in Europe. I do believe today is the first day in Fark.com history randomjsa utilized an actual fact in one of his arguments and indeed, it was persuasive.

Mark it down fellas, it won't happen again.
 
2012-08-06 05:26:08 PM  

andrewagill: Who stole it from The Simpsons.


Considering that Futurama and The Simpsons were created by the same guy, is it really stealing?

justtray: Exactly, evading taxes isn't wrong if you're savvy.


static.moviefanatic.com
 
2012-08-06 05:26:50 PM  

lennavan: I do believe today is the first day in Fark.com history randomjsa utilized an actual fact in one of his arguments and indeed, it was persuasive.


libbynomore2 is a female, I believe.
 
2012-08-06 05:28:21 PM  

max_pooper:
There is no logical way to equate Obama with Romney when talking about out of touch he is with the middle class. Romney was born to wealth that only few in this country ever see. He has spent his entire life completely insulated from the lower and middle class in his bubble of luxury.

Obama was raised by a solidly middle class single mother and grandmother and only became rich selling books later in life.

These two candidates are not, nor ever have been be equal on understanding of the struggles of the lower and middle class.

If you don't want to be seen as a Romney water carrier, do not say stuff so blatantly baseless that the only assumption one can make is that you are carrying water for Romney.


Yes, I can see how you made that assumption. I mean, I came right out and said "I don't despise his wealth or success, he just seems out of touch with the lower and middle classes." That's SURE to sway people to elect him, me stumping for him by saying he's out of touch.

You're making a lot of projections and assumptions here. I will state it plainly. I feel that the majority of "public servants" in our Executive and Legislative Branches are out of touch with the common man. This is not an endorsement of EITHER major political party, I find them both to be full of derp. Clear now?
 
2012-08-06 05:28:50 PM  

lennavan: randomjsa: You might have noticed that Romney skipped 90% of the countries in Europe on his tour. It might have something to do with being busy and not having time to do more.

And quite frankly, I don't really give a damn what most of Europe thinks anyway.

And if you live in Europe, I fully expect you not to give a damn what most of America thinks of you.

I just want people to know, Mitt Romney did actually skip around 90% of the countries in Europe. I do believe today is the first day in Fark.com history randomjsa utilized an actual fact in one of his arguments and indeed, it was persuasive.

Mark it down fellas, it won't happen again.


As Lyle Lovett once said in a different context as his grandfather told him-- "Even a blind chicken finds a few grains of corn now and then." Which at the time was one of the smarter things and also one of the dumbest things at the same time.
 
2012-08-06 05:30:03 PM  

theorellior: lennavan: I do believe today is the first day in Fark.com history randomjsa utilized an actual fact in one of his arguments and indeed, it was persuasive.

libbynomore2 is a female, I believe.


Oh shiat, not only did randomjsa post a factually based, persuasive argument but in response, I was the one making incorrect assumptions? I can't handle any more of this, I think the room is spinning.
 
2012-08-06 05:30:34 PM  

randomjsa: You might have noticed that Romney skipped 90% of the countries in Europe on his tour. It might have something to do with being busy and not having time to do more.

And quite frankly, I don't really give a damn what most of Europe thinks anyway.

And if you live in Europe, I fully expect you not to give a damn what most of America thinks of you.


do you think he shystered all those other countries as well?
 
2012-08-06 05:32:29 PM  

Isitoveryet: randomjsa: You might have noticed that Romney skipped 90% of the countries in Europe on his tour. It might have something to do with being busy and not having time to do more.

And quite frankly, I don't really give a damn what most of Europe thinks anyway.

And if you live in Europe, I fully expect you not to give a damn what most of America thinks of you.

do you think he shystered all those other countries as well?


North Korea is probably the only country Romney hasn't shafted on taxes.
 
2012-08-06 05:35:39 PM  

IamSoSmart_S_M_R_T: max_pooper:
There is no logical way to equate Obama with Romney when talking about out of touch he is with the middle class. Romney was born to wealth that only few in this country ever see. He has spent his entire life completely insulated from the lower and middle class in his bubble of luxury.

Obama was raised by a solidly middle class single mother and grandmother and only became rich selling books later in life.

These two candidates are not, nor ever have been be equal on understanding of the struggles of the lower and middle class.

If you don't want to be seen as a Romney water carrier, do not say stuff so blatantly baseless that the only assumption one can make is that you are carrying water for Romney.

Yes, I can see how you made that assumption. I mean, I came right out and said "I don't despise his wealth or success, he just seems out of touch with the lower and middle classes." That's SURE to sway people to elect him, me stumping for him by saying he's out of touch.

You're making a lot of projections and assumptions here. I will state it plainly. I feel that the majority of "public servants" in our Executive and Legislative Branches are out of touch with the common man. This is not an endorsement of EITHER major political party, I find them both to be full of derp. Clear now?


So what you're saying is that both sides are bad, and you're implying that we should vote Republican?
 
2012-08-06 05:36:21 PM  

Riothamus: So what you're saying is that both sides are bad, and you're implying that we should vote Republican?


Yes. Yes, that's EXACTLY it!

/LOL
 
2012-08-06 05:39:02 PM  

Citrate1007: A select few of shady people get rich and and the real taxpayers (middle/lower class) get screwed......this has been the GOP platform for 40 years why are people surprised at this.

/The GOP only cares about Big Government and debt when they aren't personally profiteering from it.


This is the most publicly obvious they've ever been about it, though. Past Republican presidents and candidates at least pretended to care about things.

I really think Romney is an experiment by the GOP to see where the breaking point is, to see just how blatant they can be about their true agenda before they start losing their base. The fact that people still come in these threads and defend Romney means they haven't hit that point, yet.
 
2012-08-06 05:41:41 PM  
This guy just doesn't know when to quit

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-romney-property- t ax-20120806,0,4926772.story

/I lost my HTML FU : (
 
2012-08-06 05:41:45 PM  

Fluorescent Testicle: andrewagill: Who stole it from The Simpsons.

Considering that Futurama and The Simpsons were created by the same guy, is it really stealing?


Well, they weren't created by the same guy. They were created by a group of people, who shared a large creative staff between them. So, no. Probably not stealing.

/Still, I like the Perot pamphlet joke.
 
2012-08-06 05:44:04 PM  
This story proves once again why Romney has a better track record of picking good investments than Obama does with his green energy boondoggles.
 
2012-08-06 05:47:03 PM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Lost Thought 00: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Wouldn't this be proof that we need to start imposing restrictions on LLCs run through known tax havens? Say, a baseline 70% rate to discourage tax evasion.

No, don't you get it! This means we need to have a 0% tax, otherwise no company will do business here

But zero percent taxes might not generate the jobs fast enough! We should have NEGATIVE tax rates on rich people!


We do. They're called subsidies.
 
2012-08-06 05:51:57 PM  
TAXES ARE FOR QUEERS


VOTE ROMNEY 2012
 
2012-08-06 05:54:10 PM  

sdd2000: Skleenar: sdd2000: Can you say FCPA? I will bet you Mitt's big backer Adelson knows what that is.

Is that a Welsh word? Give me a hint-- Is the C pronounced like a vowel or something?

Let me google that for you Link and Link


I'm sorry, the only people who use "Let Me Google That For You" are douchebags. Even if they are arguing the side I happen to agree with.

/If you're arguing, bring it to the table with you, or you lose the argument.
//And don't try to obfuscate it, either.
 
2012-08-06 05:55:59 PM  

Skleenar: Debeo Summa Credo: And romney, to the extent he personally profited from the deal, would have paid taxes in the US. TFA mentions nothing about taxation of Romneys comp or profits related to this transaction.

I know. It's a pity there is no way to ever get to the bottom of what Romney paid in US taxes, because if there were, he could just shut these libs up.

And then think how much egg would be on their faces!


I lol'ed. Nicely done.
 
2012-08-06 05:56:43 PM  

Goetz: This guy just doesn't know when to quit


FTA: Initially, the Romneys asked that their 2009 assessment, $12.24 million, be reduced to $6.8 million, maintaining that their home had lost about 45% of its value in the first seven months they owned it.

Thirteen months later, after hiring an attorney to guide them, the Romneys filed an amended appeal, contending the home had suffered a less-dramatic fall of 27.3%, to $8.9 million.

They also filed an appeal for the 2010 tax year, claiming the house had dropped further, to $7.5 million, 38.7% less than the home's assessed value.

As a result, the Romneys have saved about $109,000 in property taxes over four years.


Ooh, they could afford a friend for Rafalca!
 
2012-08-06 05:56:44 PM  

Bungles: TAXES ARE FOR QUEERS


VOTE ROMNEY 2012


i1020.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-06 06:01:46 PM  

Epoch_Zero: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Lost Thought 00: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Wouldn't this be proof that we need to start imposing restrictions on LLCs run through known tax havens? Say, a baseline 70% rate to discourage tax evasion.

No, don't you get it! This means we need to have a 0% tax, otherwise no company will do business here

But zero percent taxes might not generate the jobs fast enough! We should have NEGATIVE tax rates on rich people!

We do. They're called subsidies.


Corporate subsidies cost us almost double what Social subsidies cost too.

I think it's around $50 Billion annually for Social subsidies and $90 Billion for Corporate subsidies.
 
2012-08-06 06:09:57 PM  

theorellior: Debeo Summa Credo: Bain moved the profits to a sub in Luxembourg, which TFA says is a common corporate strategy to avoid high taxes. It would have been a breach of Bain's fiduciary duty to its investors to not take actions that would legally (and this appears to have been legal) reduce tax liability. And romney, to the extent he personally profited from the deal, would have paid taxes in the US. TFA mentions nothing about taxation of Romneys comp or profits related to this transaction.

So this is all just a little misunderstanding and Italy doesn't have a leg to stand on and Romney avoided the country because he hates chicken pomodoro.


Not a misunderstanding, yes Italy doesnt have a leg to stand on (at least re bain), and I don't know why he didn't go to Italy. Maybe he hates ginzos, I don't know.
 
2012-08-06 06:13:32 PM  
More and more it seems the GOP vetted their candidate thoroughly after consulting with John McCain's VP vetting team.

/You people have all the information you need
 
2012-08-06 06:15:22 PM  
Wow I'm so shocked that "a good businessman" had an incredibly bad effect on a country. This must only be the millionth time that's happened.
 
2012-08-06 06:19:07 PM  

nyseattitude: Epoch_Zero: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Lost Thought 00: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Wouldn't this be proof that we need to start imposing restrictions on LLCs run through known tax havens? Say, a baseline 70% rate to discourage tax evasion.

No, don't you get it! This means we need to have a 0% tax, otherwise no company will do business here

But zero percent taxes might not generate the jobs fast enough! We should have NEGATIVE tax rates on rich people!

We do. They're called subsidies.

Corporate subsidies cost us almost double what Social subsidies cost too.

I think it's around $50 Billion annually for Social subsidies and $90 Billion for Corporate subsidies.


Citation please.

Difficulty: tax abatements/breaks don't count as "subsidies". They're just reductions in the amounts that would otherwise be paid by corps to govt.
 
2012-08-06 06:24:04 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: . It would have been a breach of Bain's fiduciary duty to its investors to not take actions that would legally (and this appears to have been legal) reduce tax liability


Romney was sole shareholder in Bain. Also, can you point out what law says that?
 
2012-08-06 06:38:52 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Dog Welder: Debeo Summa Credo: Italians sound like whiners in TFA:

"waaaaah, we sold you an asset too cheaply, then overpaid you when we bought it back!!! No fair!!"

As usual, sounds like Bain did nothing wrong except make a savvy business deal.

Well, and pay taxes on the deal.

It would have been a breach of Bain's fiduciary duty to its investors to not take actions that would legally (and this appears to have been legal) reduce tax liability. .




Wait... you're trying to claim it's illegal in the USA for a floated company not to shovel taxable profits through a Luxembourgian shell company?
 
2012-08-06 07:09:45 PM  

FuturePastNow: I really think Romney is an experiment by the GOP to see where the breaking point is, to see just how blatant they can be about their true agenda before they start losing their base. The fact that people still come in these threads and defend Romney means they haven't hit that point, yet.


Also, compared to Romney, whoever they put up in 2016 is going to look like the Second Coming of Reagan.
 
2012-08-06 07:09:52 PM  

Bungles: Debeo Summa Credo: Dog Welder: Debeo Summa Credo: Italians sound like whiners in TFA:

"waaaaah, we sold you an asset too cheaply, then overpaid you when we bought it back!!! No fair!!"

As usual, sounds like Bain did nothing wrong except make a savvy business deal.

Well, and pay taxes on the deal.

It would have been a breach of Bain's fiduciary duty to its investors to not take actions that would legally (and this appears to have been legal) reduce tax liability. .



Wait... you're trying to claim it's illegal in the USA for a floated company not to shovel taxable profits through a Luxembourgian shell company?


Of course. Since 0bummer never owned a company that siphoned money through a tax dodge, he's the one breaking the law, not Romney. Where's Ken Starr when you need him?
 
2012-08-06 07:25:44 PM  

IlGreven: sdd2000: Skleenar: sdd2000: Can you say FCPA? I will bet you Mitt's big backer Adelson knows what that is.

Is that a Welsh word? Give me a hint-- Is the C pronounced like a vowel or something?

Let me google that for you Link and Link

I'm sorry, the only people who use "Let Me Google That For You" are douchebags. Even if they are arguing the side I happen to agree with.

/If you're arguing, bring it to the table with you, or you lose the argument.
//And don't try to obfuscate it, either.


People should know how to look up shiat on the internet by now.
 
2012-08-06 08:11:37 PM  

Bungles: Debeo Summa Credo: Dog Welder: Debeo Summa Credo: Italians sound like whiners in TFA:

"waaaaah, we sold you an asset too cheaply, then overpaid you when we bought it back!!! No fair!!"

As usual, sounds like Bain did nothing wrong except make a savvy business deal.

Well, and pay taxes on the deal.

It would have been a breach of Bain's fiduciary duty to its investors to not take actions that would legally (and this appears to have been legal) reduce tax liability. .



Wait... you're trying to claim it's illegal in the USA for a floated company not to shovel taxable profits through a Luxembourgian shell company?


Before I address your trolling nonsense, please define what you mean by "floated" in your sentence. It has no bearing on the topic at hand, I just want to more precisely determine your level of ignorance.
 
2012-08-06 08:17:40 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Debeo Summa Credo: . It would have been a breach of Bain's fiduciary duty to its investors to not take actions that would legally (and this appears to have been legal) reduce tax liability

Romney was sole shareholder in Bain. Also, can you point out what law says that?


You do understand that Bain capital is a private equity fund that invests funds provided by limited partners in opportunities such as the one in TFA, and that the profits on such investments go to those investors less management and performance fees, right?

I'd hate to think that you are so clueless regarding how private equity actually operates to think that all profits on this deal went to Romney or even to the owners and employees of Bain.
 
2012-08-06 08:19:46 PM  

HansoSparxx: People should know how to look up shiat on the internet by now.


One of these days, someone is going to invent a flawless sarcasm meter, and these sorts of arguments are going disappear.
 
2012-08-06 08:46:54 PM  
To be fair, Italians are known as exceptional tax dodgers.
 
2012-08-06 08:50:35 PM  
What a strange omission on his part. After all, Berlusconi - like Romney - ran on his experience as a successful businessman and who can honestly say that the US wouldn't benefit from following Italy's example?
 
2012-08-06 09:21:20 PM  

HansoSparxx: IlGreven: sdd2000: Skleenar: sdd2000: Can you say FCPA? I will bet you Mitt's big backer Adelson knows what that is.

Is that a Welsh word? Give me a hint-- Is the C pronounced like a vowel or something?

Let me google that for you Link and Link

I'm sorry, the only people who use "Let Me Google That For You" are douchebags. Even if they are arguing the side I happen to agree with.

/If you're arguing, bring it to the table with you, or you lose the argument.
//And don't try to obfuscate it, either.

People should know how to look up shiat on the internet by now.


You, as the prosecution, should not be telling the defense to do your job for you. That you won't do it yourself is tantamount to saying you can't do it yourself. IOW, if it's so easy to look up, why didn't you bring it to the table with you?
 
2012-08-06 09:35:16 PM  

IlGreven: HansoSparxx: IlGreven: sdd2000: Skleenar: sdd2000: Can you say FCPA? I will bet you Mitt's big backer Adelson knows what that is.

Is that a Welsh word? Give me a hint-- Is the C pronounced like a vowel or something?

Let me google that for you Link and Link

I'm sorry, the only people who use "Let Me Google That For You" are douchebags. Even if they are arguing the side I happen to agree with.

/If you're arguing, bring it to the table with you, or you lose the argument.
//And don't try to obfuscate it, either.

People should know how to look up shiat on the internet by now.

You, as the prosecution, should not be telling the defense to do your job for you. That you won't do it yourself is tantamount to saying you can't do it yourself. IOW, if it's so easy to look up, why didn't you bring it to the table with you?


It's not my job to teach you shiat you should already know. Look it up dumbass.
 
2012-08-06 10:08:36 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Italians sound like whiners in TFA:

"waaaaah, we sold you an asset too cheaply, then overpaid you when we bought it back!!! No fair!!"

As usual, sounds like Bain did nothing wrong except make a savvy business deal.


Yeah. And pissed off a whole nation in the process.

But they're foreigners, so who gives a crap.
 
2012-08-06 10:15:07 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Debeo Summa Credo: Italians sound like whiners in TFA:

"waaaaah, we sold you an asset too cheaply, then overpaid you when we bought it back!!! No fair!!"

As usual, sounds like Bain did nothing wrong except make a savvy business deal.

Yeah. And pissed off a whole nation in the process.

But they're foreigners, so who gives a crap.


Now that's not fair. DSC wouldn't give a crap if they were Americans. He/She would praise the transaction no matter who it harmed.
 
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