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(Some Guy)   In the old days, if you bought a computer and disliked Windows, you could always install a different OS. Now, according to Microsoft, those times are gone for those with EFI. Its too much of a "security" risk   (pcadvisor.co.uk) divider line 96
    More: Sad, Unified Extensible Firmware Interface, window, Microsoft, operating systems, linux, Linux Foundation, foundation, Red Hat  
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6673 clicks; posted to Geek » on 06 Aug 2012 at 6:43 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-06 06:06:49 AM
Well, I guess that means that when we replace our old PC it wll be either a Windows 7 machine or maybe we'll go the Apple route. I don't want IE as my only option.
 
2012-08-06 06:17:33 AM

Bathia_Mapes: Well, I guess that means that when we replace our old PC it wll be either a Windows 7 machine or maybe we'll go the Apple route. I don't want IE as my only option.


Did you read the article? It says MS is switching from BIOS to UFEI. So it can be more like Apple.
 
2012-08-06 06:23:26 AM

EvilEgg: Bathia_Mapes: Well, I guess that means that when we replace our old PC it wll be either a Windows 7 machine or maybe we'll go the Apple route. I don't want IE as my only option.

Did you read the article? It says MS is switching from BIOS to UFEI. So it can be more like Apple.


I read the article and it also said, "It also happens to stop you from easily installing Linux or any other operating system, such as Windows 7 or XP, on a Windows 8 system".

Personally that makes me very unhappy.
 
2012-08-06 06:41:43 AM
All those webservers running LAMP need replacing eventually, they can't just be stuck with Windows 8. Hardware companies will need to accommodate the market out there for linux-friendly PCs...
 
2012-08-06 06:52:12 AM
On Windows 8 on ARM (aka Windows RT), there will be no such choice.

At this point, I'm predicting that Windows RT is going to be as successful as Silverlight. I doubt there's many people who are that bothered about a tablet having Windows. Almost all tablet buyers just want a noddy computer for browsing and playing Angry Birds.
 
2012-08-06 07:00:17 AM
Which is why MS doesn't particularly care about the criticisms of it's Metro UI.
 
2012-08-06 07:01:12 AM
I honestly think this is going to end up costing a lot of hardware manufacturers a lot of money. Yeah, sure, it might not hurt the mainstream PC companies (whomever currently holds Gateway or Dell's old title) but I think the enthusiast market is going to be very wary of this. No one wants to be the guy making motherboards that none of your client base will buy because of the "lockout chips."
 
2012-08-06 07:01:46 AM
I'm sure this is entirely true and not at all sensationalized for the sake of getting site hits.
 
2012-08-06 07:06:23 AM
Solution; buy a white box and pick your own OS... it's what I've done for the last 15 years, and every time it turns out cheaper than buying a similarly spec'ed brand name box.
 
2012-08-06 07:12:31 AM
Is the fail tag on vacation?
 
2012-08-06 07:12:39 AM
UEFI is just a better BIOS. Stop getting your panties in a twist. If you're familiar with the technology, you'd probably be welcoming it.

The problem is that Microsoft requires vendors to implement secure boot in such a way that it makes it very hard to install Linux.

Ok, so that off the shelf PC from Costco might not be so easy to work with. Big whoop. I wouldn't buy one and expect to be able to do much with the internal hardware, either. But if you think this is going to extend past off the shelf systems, I think you're buying into this author's hype.

No motherboard manufacturer is going to foist this on their enthusiast market unless they want to go out of business in a big way.
 
2012-08-06 07:15:32 AM
Did the article even provide any facts? All I read was speculation about what might happen when vendors ship computers with Windows 8, but no confirmation at all that the author's guesses are accurate.
 
2012-08-06 07:18:24 AM
What a coincidence, Linux was touted as ALMOST READY FOR PRIMETIME back then, too.
 
2012-08-06 07:20:34 AM
Seeing how every major computer manufacturer uses a linux based troubleshooting system right now (Dell, Hp, Asus off the top of my head), you will most likely see an option to disable secure boot in the EFI bios. This author is freaking out only because it is possible for manufacturers to lock out other OS's so the author makes the logical leap to say it is likely. The reason ARM systems will be locked out is because those are what tablets and phones will use. The android based manufacturers lock out other OS's and installations as much as possible as well.

Really, there is no story here yet. And it completely depends on vendors choosing to do this, not Microsoft at all.
 
2012-08-06 07:22:30 AM

WegianWarrior: Solution; buy a white box and pick your own OS... it's what I've done for the last 15 years, and every time it turns out cheaper than buying a similarly spec'ed brand name box.


It is the only hway.

Also (dirty word)
 
2012-08-06 07:32:38 AM

Honest Bender: No motherboard manufacturer is going to foist this on their enthusiast market unless they want to go out of business in a big way.


So, how's ATI/AMD doing these days?

As for the Linux fanboys, things went downhill with the embrace of the binary blob drivers, whether for WiFi, or for graphics.
 
2012-08-06 07:33:44 AM
Appliance computing : Get used to it.
 
2012-08-06 07:34:28 AM
I still set my settings via manual jumpers on the board ya kiddos. Get off my motherboard.
 
2012-08-06 07:53:11 AM
[Obvious] tag busy biatching at its computer.

Bathia_Mapes: EvilEgg: Bathia_Mapes: Well, I guess that means that when we replace our old PC it wll be either a Windows 7 machine or maybe we'll go the Apple route. I don't want IE as my only option.

Did you read the article? It says MS is switching from BIOS to UFEI. So it can be more like Apple.

I read the article and it also said, "It also happens to stop you from easily installing Linux or any other operating system, such as Windows 7 or XP, on a Windows 8 system".

Personally that makes me very unhappy.


So does that also mean Windows 8 will only allow you to use IE??

img1.fark.net
 
2012-08-06 07:53:36 AM
Firing up the boilers on my Steamputer with the operating system that just plain works: SteamOS. Steam is sustainable and locally sourced. Gears never short out. Pull a lever and WAPOW there you go SteamInfo travels at the speed of steam. Forget CyberPunk, grip yo' goggles and get steaming, today!
 
2012-08-06 07:58:59 AM
Linux FUD. Though maybe he are gettig more prissy as everyone at Linux conferences seem to be running Mac OSX anyway.
 
kab
2012-08-06 08:01:29 AM
Because folks actually NEEDED another reason to skip this OS entirely?
 
2012-08-06 08:14:26 AM
Sounds like a prescription for an anti-trust suit. You just know the EU will start slapping massive fines on Microsoft and the hardware manufacturers.
 
2012-08-06 08:15:52 AM
Microsoft has changed the way Windows activates in Windows 8. Instead of using a generic license Product key type activation as it has in the past, it now uses a hardware combination Windows license key+hardware hash code (probably using UEFI). There have been rumors from hardware vendors that a motherboard and other electronics has to be designated as Windows hardware to allow for it to pass the hash combination and that the code may be encrypted in the hardware electronics, readable only by Windows. If that is the case, there has to be a big enough non-Windows market to allow the "generic" boards to find a reason to reach store shelves.

None of the information is public yet, so I think this is all just market speculation because Microsoft has had enough problems in the past whenever they tried to limit their competition directly like this. However, techies everywhere like to speculate on the next big thing to fear in the IT industry. IMHO, just more fear and speculation to stir up interest from their target audience in their products.
 
2012-08-06 08:20:03 AM
How will I install OS/2 Warp?
 
2012-08-06 08:23:18 AM

EvilEgg: Did you read the article? It says MS is switching from BIOS to UFEI. So it can be more like Apple.


Wait, are you trying to say MS is offering a free tool install any CPU supported alternate OS, like Apple does?
 
2012-08-06 08:25:42 AM
This article is wrong.....
 
2012-08-06 08:27:21 AM
Oh look, this has been discussed sensibly here.

Microsoft isn't going to let you boot arbitrary operating systems on their ARM based tablets using this secure boot feature. Did you really think they would? How easy is it to install Linux on your iPad?

You'll still be able to disable secure boot and/or add certificates on x86 systems. That's assuming they even bother with UEFI on x86 at this time.
 
2012-08-06 08:33:09 AM

Director_Mr: Seeing how every major computer manufacturer uses a linux based troubleshooting system right now (Dell, Hp, Asus off the top of my head), you will most likely see an option to disable secure boot in the EFI bios. This author is freaking out only because it is possible for manufacturers to lock out other OS's so the author makes the logical leap to say it is likely. The reason ARM systems will be locked out is because those are what tablets and phones will use. The android based manufacturers lock out other OS's and installations as much as possible as well.

Really, there is no story here yet. And it completely depends on vendors choosing to do this, not Microsoft at all.


Can you honestly say that if given a tool to screw consumers these companies won't use it?

Especially since you contradict yourself within the single paragraph?

I'm not going full stupid here, but let's be honest, if they are given a tool to lock things down and force you to have no option but 'corporate product x' they are going to use it. And I say this as someone who has no interest in Linux or iOS or anything except a Microsoft system that doesn't make me want to stab people.
 
2012-08-06 08:36:52 AM

farkeruk: On Windows 8 on ARM (aka Windows RT), there will be no such choice.

At this point, I'm predicting that Windows RT is going to be as successful as Silverlight. I doubt there's many people who are that bothered about a tablet having Windows. Almost all tablet buyers just want a noddy computer for browsing and playing Angry Birds.


There's a significant population of people who would like to have a tablet that is more friendly to content creation and business apps. Both Android and iPad fall down with those use cases.

A tab with say, a fully functioning spreadsheet, would be exceedingly popular in the enterprise and amongst business travelers.
 
2012-08-06 08:49:29 AM
I'll continue building my own and keep win7. If the OS after 8 continues this sort of fail, well, then I'll just wait for valve to muscle linux gaming into the prime spot.
 
2012-08-06 08:50:46 AM

Honest Bender: UEFI is just a better BIOS. Stop getting your panties in a twist. If you're familiar with the technology, you'd probably be welcoming it.


What Bender said.

This isn't going to stop anything. The linux community will have a work around in 24 hours. Exploiting hardware is what they do. Then all the benefits of UEFI will be available on *nix. If you people would stop being paranoid about everything M$ does you would realize they are pushing for more secure HW that everyone will benefit from.
 
2012-08-06 08:53:42 AM
You do know that Netflix uses Silverlight don't you? People seem to be confused (and I blame Microsoft for this) and the difference between the ARM based version of Windows 8 and the full blow version. Some people are even under the assumption that you will be stuck with IE (writing this post with Chrome from Windows 8 Pre-View). The short answer is in the ARM based version which only uses metro apps, probably yes (but then again you couldn't install another browser on iOS for a long time and now even that you can you can't make it your default browser). Windows 8 x86 is just a better version of Windows7 (as far as the desktop goes) with Metro (or whatever they're calling it now) slapped on top. Nothing more, nothing less. Developers won't have to pay crap to develop applications for the desktop and all your older desktop applications will still work without issue, they will only have to pay to develop Metro Apps which is exactly what Apple and Google do so what's the difference? They say the locked bootloader is for "your" protection but what they are really trying to do is prevent people from pirating their software as Windows 7 was easily pirated through security loopholes in the bootloader.
 
2012-08-06 08:58:29 AM

hamiltonjdavid: Oh look, this has been discussed sensibly here.

Microsoft isn't going to let you boot arbitrary operating systems on their ARM based tablets using this secure boot feature. Did you really think they would? How easy is it to install Linux on your iPad?

You'll still be able to disable secure boot and/or add certificates on x86 systems. That's assuming they even bother with UEFI on x86 at this time.


I believe that UEFI is a requirement for all new OEM installs of Win 8, x86 or ARM. ARM will not allow you to install other certificates, x86 is up to the hardware vendor what they want to do. I would imagine that most, f not all, harware vendors will allow you to install other certificates or disable UEFI entirely. If you can't install Linux on your brand new computer, it won't be Microsoft's fault, it will be because you bought a shiatty computer.

Link
 
2012-08-06 09:04:23 AM
This is why I'll stick to devices that aren't locked down, like my MacBook.
 
2012-08-06 09:06:40 AM
Unsolicited
Electronic
Finger
Inserted
 
2012-08-06 09:19:03 AM
So does that mean that my new computer will come without the wheel?

4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-08-06 09:20:21 AM

Theaetetus: This is why I'll stick to devices that aren't locked down, like my MacBook.


iLaughed.
 
2012-08-06 09:26:26 AM
Yep, there won't be a workaround online within days of release. I promise.

Yawn.
 
2012-08-06 09:26:43 AM
No thanks, M$. I like this one.

/Posted from my Ubuntu Desktop
//can't stand when I have to use Windows
///not even that 7 thing
 
2012-08-06 09:30:56 AM

Babwa Wawa: farkeruk: On Windows 8 on ARM (aka Windows RT), there will be no such choice.

At this point, I'm predicting that Windows RT is going to be as successful as Silverlight. I doubt there's many people who are that bothered about a tablet having Windows. Almost all tablet buyers just want a noddy computer for browsing and playing Angry Birds.

There's a significant population of people who would like to have a tablet that is more friendly to content creation and business apps. Both Android and iPad fall down with those use cases.

A tab with say, a fully functioning spreadsheet, would be exceedingly popular in the enterprise and amongst business travelers.


This exists. It's called a "laptop"
 
2012-08-06 09:31:52 AM
Not an issue, will not be a problem at all.

I work in IT for a large government department and we are still trying to move to windows 7 from XP. The thousands of computers we get into the shop say; "Designed for windows 7", they all have the Windows 7 license sticker on them. All of them get re-imaged with the corporate XP image.

Same will be true when we eventually move to windows 7 and the computers that come in will say: "certified for Windows 8". Those machines will get imaged with windows 7 which supposedly will not work on these computers with UEFI. So what is going to happen then?

A solution will be provided or there will be some way to work around it. No need to panic.
 
2012-08-06 09:49:42 AM

Anavrinman: Babwa Wawa: farkeruk: On Windows 8 on ARM (aka Windows RT), there will be no such choice.

At this point, I'm predicting that Windows RT is going to be as successful as Silverlight. I doubt there's many people who are that bothered about a tablet having Windows. Almost all tablet buyers just want a noddy computer for browsing and playing Angry Birds.

There's a significant population of people who would like to have a tablet that is more friendly to content creation and business apps. Both Android and iPad fall down with those use cases.

A tab with say, a fully functioning spreadsheet, would be exceedingly popular in the enterprise and amongst business travelers.

This exists. It's called a "laptop"


Exactly. Not everyone wants to carry a laptop when traveling. If I can ditch the thing for a few days' trip, I'm traveling a lot more comfortably.
 
2012-08-06 09:55:00 AM
Just don't make it a Napster machine download MP3's to it.

www.sexyjameshetfield.com

/NAPSTER BAD!!
 
2012-08-06 09:55:23 AM
I could be completely off base here, but Windows 8 looks like a giant step towards Windows locking down their O/S to the point that you have to buy all software through their market place. The desktop version won't be that way yet, but I really feel like the next version of Windows will. They have seen how successfully Apple locks people into their product with Itunes purchased apps and want that for themselves. I for one hope Windows 8 is the biggest flop in O/S history.
 
2012-08-06 10:01:46 AM

ajgeek: Theaetetus: This is why I'll stick to devices that aren't locked down, like my MacBook.

iLaughed.


www.reviewmylife.co.ukfarm6.static.flickr.com
iWas only half kidding. :)
 
2012-08-06 10:04:03 AM

fonebone77: I could be completely off base here, but Windows 8 looks like a giant step towards Windows locking down their O/S to the point that you have to buy all software through their market place.


That's the ideSTOP: 0x00000019 (0x00000000, 0xC00E0FF0, 0xFFFFEFD4, 0xC0000000) BAD_POOL_HEADER
 
2012-08-06 10:08:15 AM

fonebone77: They have seen how successfully Apple locks people into their product with Itunes purchased apps


My new mac doesn't lock anything of the sort. I installed CS6 from disks. I installed Reason 6 from disks. Actual optical disks. It felt retro.
 
2012-08-06 10:13:02 AM

Honest Bender: UEFI is just a better BIOS. Stop getting your panties in a twist. If you're familiar with the technology, you'd probably be welcoming it.

The problem is that Microsoft requires vendors to implement secure boot in such a way that it makes it very hard to install Linux.

Ok, so that off the shelf PC from Costco might not be so easy to work with. Big whoop. I wouldn't buy one and expect to be able to do much with the internal hardware, either. But if you think this is going to extend past off the shelf systems, I think you're buying into this author's hype.

No motherboard manufacturer is going to foist this on their enthusiast market unless they want to go out of business in a big way.


and what about laptops ?
 
2012-08-06 10:21:58 AM

sammyk: Honest Bender: UEFI is just a better BIOS. Stop getting your panties in a twist. If you're familiar with the technology, you'd probably be welcoming it.

What Bender said.

This isn't going to stop anything. The linux community will have a work around in 24 hours. Exploiting hardware is what they do. Then all the benefits of UEFI will be available on *nix. If you people would stop being paranoid about everything M$ does you would realize they are pushing for more secure HW that everyone will benefit from.


Oh, you mean the work-around that already exists? Hit F2 (or what ever the BIOS menu key is during POST) and disable verified OS. Ta-da, you can install what ever you want. Or you can use Redhat or Ubuntu or one of the other Linux distros that are using Microsoft's offer of signed keys. Or you could create your own key, and add it to the UEFI ROM if your mobo supports that. Or your favorite linux distro could create their own key, and market it's use to mobo manufacturers.

In all, the only people this will hurt is people like my parents, who like using Linux but have to get a geek to install it anyways. And the big plus of novices having UEFI verified boot enabled is that it will prevent some of the more advanced virtualization-type rootkits from gaining access below the OS level.

/Still hate the MS 'buy keys from us' method
 
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