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(The American Spectator)   Chuck Schumer to Canada: Just what do you think you're doing selling fuel to China? Canada: This pipeline of ours? Like your boss says, you didn't build that. We did. And Tim Horton's kicks Dunkin Donuts' ASS   (spectator.org) divider line 299
    More: Dumbass, Chuck Schumer, Tim Hortons, C.S.A.: The Confederate States of America, foreign corporation, Dunkin' Donuts, energy security, South China Sea, energy development  
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6707 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Aug 2012 at 8:15 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-06 12:10:45 AM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Anyone who chooses Tim Horton's for coffee forfeits their right to criticize any coffee


Tim Hortons coffee is absolutely dreadful. The fact that the most popular order is a "double double" - double cream, double sugar which basically turns the coffee into a hot milkshake, is proof that people who go to Tim Hortons don't know shiat about coffee and hate everything to do with good coffee.
 
2012-08-06 12:10:49 AM

ox45tallboy: Well, yes, it is populist BS. The problem is that people can't afford to stop buying the cheap Chinese-made crap. Our lifestyles have dramatically improved because of the cheap consumer goods we get from China, and no one wants to stop it. If someone were to open a store that somehow sold American-made goods for the same price as the Chinese ones, people would shop there, but it's simply not possible.

Tariffs are one way of doing it, but who wants to be the politician that raises prices at Wal-Mart? Could you imagine the political pressure that store could bring?

And there is also the social cost of forcing people into a lower standard of living by raising prices on consumer goods. If people suddenly can't afford new plates and radios and sheets and toys, they're not going to be happy.


So, uh, the conclusion is that we're pretty well farked, I take it?

Well, at least then we can try to focus on the reality of the situation, and not have pointless pissing matches over ideology!

Oh, wait, this is the Fark politics tabs, I almost forgot for a second.
 
2012-08-06 12:11:36 AM

Heron: Mrbogey: mr intrepid: The oil was always going to China. That's why the pipeline went to Houston, not so much for the refineries, but for the port.

And America lost it's chance to make money off of it.

I'm not so sure Canada will end up making much money off of it either. Fuel and construction material demand in China has fallen off right now. Analysts who travel there are reporting ports filled with goods no one wants to buy, cement factories cutting production, petroleum and petroleum products sitting unused in holding tanks. If China has reached a glut in its resource purchases, or if its vastly inflated construction boom has finally gone bust, then it isn't going to be buy much if any of the production from all these resource projects set up to supply its demand, and certainly not at the prices its resource tear of the last decade has created. They still may be willing to purchase a stake in the drilling company as part of their general "strategic acquisitions" plan to buy up exploitation rights to as much of the world's resources as they can, but they'll be holding it at low production for the purposes of denying access to State competitors; not maintaining a profitable rate of exploitation.


But the Chinese are still in denial over the fact that they're on a bubble huh?
 
2012-08-06 12:15:32 AM

ox45tallboy: Canadians have funny taste buds. Have you tried their beer?


Growing up I had a neighbor who would only drink American Bud - didn't like Canadian Bud(made under license from the US counterpart).. So once a month they'd get in a boat and do the 25 mile trip across Lake Erie to Dunkirk NY to get their next month's fix....

/BOTH taste like crap as far as real beer is supposed to take!

/Canada, like the States, has some damn good micro breweries...The rest is corn sugar and some yeast and should not be called beer!
 
2012-08-06 12:16:56 AM

sendtodave: Global labor arbitrage is an economic phenomenon where, as a result of the removal of or disintegration of barriers to international trade, jobs move to nations where labor and the cost of doing business (such as environmental regulations) is inexpensive and/or impoverished labor moves to nations with higher paying jobs.[1] The "global labor arbitrage" phenomenon has been described by economist Stephen S. Roach.[2]

So, this really doesn't happen? My mistake, then.



I just stated the supposed low labor costs only reflects a 5% portion of the total price, so to claim it's some huge price benefit is disingenuous and completely wrong. But keep posting quotes of topics you don't understand instead of debating me using your own words.
 
2012-08-06 12:20:13 AM

Mrtraveler01: But the Chinese are still in denial over the fact that they're on a bubble huh?


Not so much. The real question is if the central government is adroit enough to deflate the bubble without it going pop. If they do, good for them, and good for the people, but you'll never hear the end of how a strong central planned economy is superior to the West...

It's "Asian values" all over again.
 
2012-08-06 12:20:46 AM

sendtodave: So, anyway, give them time! Unless you think China would be better off not industrializing?


I get what you're saying, but that makes it so much worse. China controls a significant portion of the world's wealth right now. The people controlling that wealth are also controlling their industrial development, and most importantly, that same class has the education to know what happened to us. Chinese business leaders have the manpower, technical expertise, and financial backing to build sustainable green communities, restore their own ecosystems, implement numerous safeguards, and still offer cheaper labor than any other nation.

They aren't. Instead, they'll plunder as much from they can and leave it for the next generation to clean up. It's what happened to us during the industrial revolution - just on a much larger scale, and with a giant crayon map that shows them exactly where they're going.
 
2012-08-06 12:27:19 AM

clkeagle: sendtodave: So, anyway, give them time! Unless you think China would be better off not industrializing?

I get what you're saying, but that makes it so much worse. China controls a significant portion of the world's wealth right now. The people controlling that wealth are also controlling their industrial development, and most importantly, that same class has the education to know what happened to us. Chinese business leaders have the manpower, technical expertise, and financial backing to build sustainable green communities, restore their own ecosystems, implement numerous safeguards, and still offer cheaper labor than any other nation.

They aren't. Instead, they'll plunder as much from they can and leave it for the next generation to clean up. It's what happened to us during the industrial revolution - just on a much larger scale, and with a giant crayon map that shows them exactly where they're going.


Anyone who looks at history, current economic climate, resource depletion etc can see China's model is not sustainable...

Sad thing is, ours isn't either...But our downfall can be put off if we stop raping the land to send it to the highest bidder and use it as an insurance program while we actively develop future sustainable technologies - something that's going to take many decades.

Sadly, we don't learn from our OWN history...We're going to follow China, rape the land for every last dollar we can get...Then crash and burn.

Right now, Canada, US, England, Germany, whoever - I don't see this stopping.. All we will do is complain that China/India etc are growing TOO fast and may cause us to crash a day or two sooner... That's bad because there's a few extra trillion to rape out that China may take and Western Business wants it all.
 
2012-08-06 12:30:22 AM

The Life Of Brian: ox45tallboy: whatshisname: Because delivering it as inexpensively as possible to a seaport full of refineries makes a whole of economic sense?

So why not sell it to us at the border and leave it to us to move it where we want it? Why wait to sell it until it has been transported all the way across the country?

Again big business.. Canadian pipeline companies want to expand..WHY drop it at the boarder and let some other company handle it.... Its all about profit.

Doesn't matter if Trans-Canada pipeline drops it to Trans-USA pipeline at the boarder - Its still going to be sold to WHOEVER will pay the most for it..and right now, that's China.

I don't agree with wasting our precious natural resources this way... Hey, lets share with our neighbors to the south, AS LONG as the reciprocate - we are each other's largest trading partners. But why rape the land to send it to China? Lets keep our stuff for (sort of) 'domestic use'. And keep the rest in reserve. That's how I look at it. (Hey, we send cheap oil and gas, don't try to block our softwood lumber!)


We refine to our capacity. It is in our interest to increase refining capacity and increase the amount of crude that can reach it. The more infrastructure that doesn't require shipping, the better for AGW, strategic reserves and cost stability. But the pipeline needed more than than just approving, it needed refineries as well. The enviro watermelons oppose all of that even though they know the crude will be shipped and refined somewhere. It's somewhat ridiculous to oppose the pipeline in the U.S. and a refinery in the U.S. for shipping port that the Valdez can use to bring oil to China and have it refined there. It's NIMBY watermelons that oppose this, not the AGW concerned ones.
 
2012-08-06 12:37:58 AM

intelligent comment below: sendtodave: Global labor arbitrage is an economic phenomenon where, as a result of the removal of or disintegration of barriers to international trade, jobs move to nations where labor and the cost of doing business (such as environmental regulations) is inexpensive and/or impoverished labor moves to nations with higher paying jobs.[1] The "global labor arbitrage" phenomenon has been described by economist Stephen S. Roach.[2]

So, this really doesn't happen? My mistake, then.


I just stated the supposed low labor costs only reflects a 5% portion of the total price, so to claim it's some huge price benefit is disingenuous and completely wrong. But keep posting quotes of topics you don't understand instead of debating me using your own words.


Fine, fine. I was pointing out that you're just arguing labor price difference; other factors also increase profit. But we can focus just on the labor, if you want to.

Lu Zheng, director of the Institute of Industrial Economics under the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, said that "China enjoys a comparative advantage in cheap educated laborers." That advantage will "last at least two decades and play an important role in promoting China's economic growth."[2]

According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, "In 2007, compensation costs relative to the United States in Mexico and the Philippines were 13 percent and 4 percent of the U.S. level, respectively."[3] In 2006 (the most recent year available), compensation costs in China were 2.7 percent of the U.S. level.


What Are the U.S. and China's Current Comparative Advantages?

www.bls.gov
Chart 1. Hourly compensation costs of manufacturing employees in selected economies and regions, 2008

4.2% hourly compensation cost compare to US, as of 2008

BLS - International Labor Comparisons

Labor in China is really, really cheap. If that only reflects a 5% decrease in the final price for the consumer, blame the market. Blame the manufacturer for charging too much. Whatever. Those new tennis shoes should only cost $2, not $200.

But you can't say that outsourcing isn't worth the cost difference to the manufacturer, in terms of profit. In fact, it's just the opposite. They are making much more!
 
2012-08-06 12:38:15 AM

Chimperror2: We refine to our capacity. It is in our interest to increase refining capacity and increase the amount of crude that can reach it.


WHY, other than to make more money for the oil companies?

How does that improve the quality of life now and going forward for Americans or Canadians?

Would it not make more sense to focus on HOME and not on sending this finite resource to the highest bidder?

I have no problem with the keystone pipeline in theory.... But if we're going to do it, refine the shiat and send it BACK to the Canadian and American markets and reduce imports proportionally!

We have the oil in Canada, USA has the refining technology and capacity. We'll work together for the betterment of all of us, and sorry China, look elsewhere - That's the way I look at it.

If the only point of the pipeline is to line someone's pockets at the expense of the environment and our future, then it shouldn't be done.
 
2012-08-06 12:39:45 AM

Chimperror2: Here's a clue: if China's has lower labor costs, economic and political stability, and capital market rules for investors, - money jobs and wealth will flow to it, Labor costs will balance out eventually (or stability will collapse - remember Obama sendin all thos warships to the region?). Don't worry though, the U.S. is way ahead of Greece and Spain. Those countries are less stable than China with a higher labor cost.


And why does China have lower labor costs? Because they shoot anyone who tries to form a union, and harass anyone who complains about work conditions in to silence. Why is development cheaper? Because the CCP will move whole villages under the threat of force so you can site your factories where you want them, because the CCP will pay 70 or 80 percent of your construction bill for you via subsidy, and because the CCP doesn't give a damn if you make the soil so toxic just standing on it with bare feet will make your teeth fall out; provided you bribe the right people, of course. What ensures China's political stability? The CCP's willingness to arrest and torture anyone who says anything they don't like, and their alliances with organized crime which allow the Party to harass, bully, and even kill dissidents with plausible deniability.

You, like most marketeers, list off the "benefits" of China and leave it at that. You never care to look at why; never care to see the lack of liberty, the blatant force, the thousand ways -large and small- in which industry is furthered in mainland China by the heavy hand of the State. You Cons have a meticulous concern for the numbers -how cheap is the labor? how much cost can we avoid on OSHA and EPA compliance? how much more profit can the Execs shovel into their own pockets by reducing wages, breaks, on-site facilities?- but you never seem to care much for the bodies, rotting right under your nose.

Chimperror2: It's so cute how progressives in the US defend fat poor US kids while trying to deny jobs to better educated, but starving, people around the world.


It takes a pretty goddamn cynical man to squawk about "liberty" and "free markets" out one side of his mouth while talking up a one-party dictatorship where every business of any significance is owned by the Party -and back up by the threat of State force- with the other. If anyone ever needed proof of how US Cons are really enemies of the freedom and liberty they so monotonously invoke, demagogues who long for the ancient days of state-granted monopolies and the feudal right of the employer to do with and demand of his workers whatever he wills, they couldn't do better than looking to the boosterism of CCP China rife among the American Right.
 
2012-08-06 12:41:23 AM

Chimperror2: The more infrastructure that doesn't require shipping, the better for AGW, strategic reserves and cost stability. But the pipeline needed more than than just approving, it needed refineries as well



So if the oil is going all over America, best place is to ship it as far south as possible! And apparently there aren't any refineries anywhere but in Houston.

I'm so glad you came in to mop up the idiotic troll brigade of useless and baseless facts
 
2012-08-06 12:49:44 AM

intelligent comment below: Chimperror2: It's so cute how progressives in the US defend fat poor US kids while trying to deny jobs to better educated, but starving, people around the world.

Jobs aren't leaving the U.S. because of evil CEO's, they are leaving because a communist country decided the best way to lift their largely agrarian society out of poverty is by allowing and supporting industrialization. Their poverty is decreasing. No one with a conscience can deny this.


Ah yes, of course, you're for shipping jobs to slave labor havens because you are all about social justice and humanity!

Now they can afford CAKE!

HAHAHAHAHA


No, now they can afford rice and they can buy it instead of grow it, just like workers here (imagine the conditions necessary to drive the U.S. back to an agrarian economy, farktard). Their recession economy is growing at 10% per year. You can decry all the conditions you wish but it's clear that 1) capitalism has increased wealth and 2) capitalism has increased freedom. Those are undeniable truths. If you have ever been there and seen the changes and talked to the people, you would know. And if you ever worked on a farm you would know that there is no industrialized worker subject to the working conditions of a farmer. Go visit a family owned dairy farm for slave labor conditions (and why all the exemptions exist in U.S. labor laws for farm workers). Cows are fed, cleaned, and milked mutliple times a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream suppliers are the largest slavery conditions on the planet.
 
2012-08-06 12:50:41 AM

Heron: You, like most marketeers, list off the "benefits" of China and leave it at that.



What do you mean? This is their DREAM of what a "perfect" America would be


sendtodave: But you can't say that outsourcing isn't worth the cost difference to the manufacturer, in terms of profit. In fact, it's just the opposite. They are making much more!



I never said it wasn't worth it. I just said the price difference is not as big as people think. Every time I hear someone talk about how you'd have to double the cost of an iPhone if you wanted to make it in America it reminds me of the ignorance that keeps cheap labor popular.

The cost of labor directly isn't the only cost in that equation either.

The point is simple, bringing manufacturing back to America isn't as expensive as everyone wants to believe. Prices might rise 5% at most when factoring in everything.

The biggest reason for cheap labor havens making companies money is what I first pointed out, the ridiculous tax breaks these companies receive after their lobbyists wrote the tax laws.
 
2012-08-06 12:51:44 AM

Mrtraveler01: Heron: Mrbogey: mr intrepid: The oil was always going to China. That's why the pipeline went to Houston, not so much for the refineries, but for the port.

And America lost it's chance to make money off of it.

I'm not so sure Canada will end up making much money off of it either. Fuel and construction material demand in China has fallen off right now. Analysts who travel there are reporting ports filled with goods no one wants to buy, cement factories cutting production, petroleum and petroleum products sitting unused in holding tanks. If China has reached a glut in its resource purchases, or if its vastly inflated construction boom has finally gone bust, then it isn't going to be buy much if any of the production from all these resource projects set up to supply its demand, and certainly not at the prices its resource tear of the last decade has created. They still may be willing to purchase a stake in the drilling company as part of their general "strategic acquisitions" plan to buy up exploitation rights to as much of the world's resources as they can, but they'll be holding it at low production for the purposes of denying access to State competitors; not maintaining a profitable rate of exploitation.

But the Chinese are still in denial over the fact that they're on a bubble huh?


Have you seen what they've been doing with their interest rates? Of course they're not in denial, the CCP is desperate for a soft landing; they're doing everything they can to "cool off" their economy, which is just a polite way of saying "prick this bubble before it gets any worse". The question isn't if the CCP can face reality. The questions are can they engineer their soft landing in an economy absolutely filled with corruption and misinformation; if they cannot how long will it take western capitalists to realize that; and if China-heavy portfolios and China-based industrial companies take a hit in a collapse, will they be coming to the US tax-payer to bail them out just as they did for every other bubble they've chased and gotten bitten on over the last 30 years?
 
2012-08-06 12:52:34 AM

Chimperror2: No, now they can afford rice and they can buy it instead of grow it, just like workers here (imagine the conditions necessary to drive the U.S. back to an agrarian economy, farktard). Their recession economy is growing at 10% per year. You can decry all the conditions you wish but it's clear that 1) capitalism has increased wealth and 2) capitalism has increased freedom. Those are undeniable truths. If you have ever been there and seen the changes and talked to the people, you would know. And if you ever worked on a farm you would know that there is no industrialized worker subject to the working conditions of a farmer. Go visit a family owned dairy farm for slave labor conditions (and why all the exemptions exist in U.S. labor laws for farm workers). Cows are fed, cleaned, and milked mutliple times a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream suppliers are the largest slavery conditions on the planet.



I think it's so cute you're pretending factory jobs are anything but wage slavery just like every other line work job in the country.

But again, you think they now can afford cake.

The only people doing well in that country are the children of politically connected families who get educations in Europe or America then come back to work as executives.
 
2012-08-06 12:55:06 AM

Lando Lincoln: ThatGuyGreg: TL;DR

And, it's adorable that you ferriners think we go to Dunkin' for the donuts.

Some whiny biatch was pouting like a whiny biatch.

Is American Spectator always this full of whiny biatches?


You have no idea.
 
2012-08-06 12:56:06 AM

Heron: Have you seen what they've been doing with their interest rates? Of course they're not in denial, the CCP is desperate for a soft landing; they're doing everything they can to "cool off" their economy, which is just a polite way of saying "prick this bubble before it gets any worse". The question isn't if the CCP can face reality. The questions are can they engineer their soft landing in an economy absolutely filled with corruption and misinformation; if they cannot how long will it take western capitalists to realize that; and if China-heavy portfolios and China-based industrial companies take a hit in a collapse, will they be coming to the US tax-payer to bail them out just as they did for every other bubble they've chased and gotten bitten on over the last 30 years?



They even instituted a one house only policy to cool a rising property bubble
 
2012-08-06 12:57:26 AM
I'm not sure what exactly the issue is here...

Back when this whole thing was blowing up, we 'knew' then that Canada had no intention of selling that oil to us. We knew that the pipeline was planned for the Gulf so that they could export it. And that China is the largest single importer of oil at the moment.

And now that 'China' is trying to outright buy the oil directly, we're all surprised now?

I'm trying to find the outrage here. Someone help me out.

Also, didn't I read an article not that long ago where America is now a net 'exporter' of oil? The 'next OPEC' was the term used, I believe...
 
2012-08-06 12:58:50 AM
Summation

Here's the setup: Last week the Chinese National Offshore Oil Company...
mlkshk.com
 
2012-08-06 12:59:57 AM

Infernalist: Also, didn't I read an article not that long ago where America is now a net 'exporter' of oil? The 'next OPEC' was the term used, I believe...


I believe that was net exporter of refined products...Not crude oil...

That's the kicker...Bring the oil in, refine it (take the pollution hit) then send it to other countries...all for the all mighty $$$. Its stupid. It's Romney's dream....
 
2012-08-06 01:06:06 AM
Wow, that article is full of a crapload of fail, and ignorance on a nuclear scale.

Whatever. Keep thinking your derp, crazy guy.

/ we've been working on oil deals with China for years
// and capital is not a problem
 
2012-08-06 01:06:17 AM

intelligent comment below: Chimperror2: The more infrastructure that doesn't require shipping, the better for AGW, strategic reserves and cost stability. But the pipeline needed more than than just approving, it needed refineries as well


So if the oil is going all over America, best place is to ship it as far south as possible! And apparently there aren't any refineries anywhere but in Houston.

I'm so glad you came in to mop up the idiotic troll brigade of useless and baseless facts


Where did you think the refineries are? (Hint: think sea coast industrial areas for almost all of them.) Ever see what happens when someone proposes a new refinery on a new site? NIMBY Libtard watermelons protest it so that it has to be shipped or piped further.
 
2012-08-06 01:17:39 AM

Chimperror2: NIMBY Libtard watermelons protest it


Come on! we know you push the 'party line', but NIMBY isn't a 'party line' - its people looking selfishly at themselves!

Do you think its 'libtard watermelons' protesting the wind farm off Martha's Vineyard?

I don't like to use these terms, but since you did, I will too {sticks out tongue}

The problem is you REPUBTARDS think that anyone who questions big business, anyone who looks for accountability, anyone who wants to make sure you're not farking over the locals for $$ is a LIBTARD thus their opinions are invalidated and ignored.

I gave you a chance in this thread.

Can you really be this ignorant? Can you not look more objectively? Can you not have a discussion without dismissing EVERYTHING that doesn't fit your talking points as 'LIBTARD!"??

Probably not - since I have you fav. in red with the comment " Bad Racist Troll., R Shill"

Pathetic.

/New note to self - Don't bother with Chimperror2. Waste of time. Waste of skin.
 
2012-08-06 01:17:58 AM

LordJiro: Chimperror2: ThatGuyGreg: TL;DR

And, it's adorable that you ferriners think we go to Dunkin' for the donuts.

Weaver95: Today we are undergoing a similar dance in our economic relation with China. And wouldn't you know, it's our liberal friends in Congress, so enthusiastic about hamstringing American enterprise, who are the last to realize that they are undercutting our political hegemony as well.

Because all those liberal CEOs are the ones shipping jobs overseas to china every chance they get....

No, it's just the liberal politicians and their enviro-whacko watermelon masters. Get rid of those and jobs will stop leaving.

[desmond.imageshack.us image 178x225]Chuckie
[lh4.ggpht.com image 81x85]"The Joker"Schumer

Yes, if only American businesses were allowed to make children (as well as adults) work in unsafe conditions for pathetic pay! Then those heroic Job Creators™ wouldn't be FORCED to send jobs to China!


Pretty obvious the left still doesn't get it. Remember when unions complained about the Japanese working conditions when they started shipping cars into the U.S.? That ended well for those that called out working conditions. The problem is that, China now has the infrastructure to manufacture pretty much anything. heroic Job Creators™ aren't sending jobs anywhere, it's buyers. If you bought the cheapest cell phone with the coolest features you could get, or you bought the top end cell phone for $100 more, you can thank yourself for shipping that job overseas. Nobody is going to pay $3k for an iPhoneUSA4 when the identical iPhone4 is $300. And it's very wise not to pay $3k for an iPhoneUSA4 when the identical iPhone4 is $300.
 
2012-08-06 01:18:43 AM

ox45tallboy: Our lifestyles have dramatically improved because of the cheap consumer goods we get from China


Not really. I'm a consumer of those cheap goods, but I wouldn't say consumption of crap has dramatically improved my lifestyle.

Given that outsourcing has helped push the elimination of the middle class, I might even say the American lifestyle has been dramatically worsened by the whole process.

Before you point to a smartphone or something, I'd be willing to pay more for the important goods and I might even have a higher wage to buy it with.
 
2012-08-06 01:26:22 AM

Chimperror2: Where did you think the refineries are? (Hint: think sea coast industrial areas for almost all of them.) Ever see what happens when someone proposes a new refinery on a new site? NIMBY Libtard watermelons protest it so that it has to be shipped or piped further.



So there are NO refineries anywhere but Houston? Is that your final answer?

Ah yes the typical NIMBY libtard farmers who live in Nebraska that opposed the pipeline through the fresh water aquifer.

Can you tell your identical twin MeinRS6 I miss him because at least he knows he has no education on the subjects, while you BS your way through.
 
2012-08-06 01:27:44 AM

ArkAngel: Markey followed with a letter demanding that Geithner insist that CNOOC pay royalties on tracts that Nexen recently won in the Gulf of Mexico where the government offered them royalty-free.

I believe this is banned by the legal principle of "No Backsies"


I believe that that legal principle has been superseded by the new Democratic principle of, " I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further." It applies to all sorts of things like immigration enforcement, appointments, drilling in the Gulf, etc.
 
2012-08-06 01:33:21 AM

The Life Of Brian: Chimperror2: We refine to our capacity. It is in our interest to increase refining capacity and increase the amount of crude that can reach it.

WHY, other than to make more money for the oil companies?

How does that improve the quality of life now and going forward for Americans or Canadians?

Would it not make more sense to focus on HOME and not on sending this finite resource to the highest bidder?

I have no problem with the keystone pipeline in theory.... But if we're going to do it, refine the shiat and send it BACK to the Canadian and American markets and reduce imports proportionally!

We have the oil in Canada, USA has the refining technology and capacity. We'll work together for the betterment of all of us, and sorry China, look elsewhere - That's the way I look at it.

If the only point of the pipeline is to line someone's pockets at the expense of the environment and our future, then it shouldn't be done.


Strategically it makes sense to have the refining capacity in case of war/natural disasterpolitical instability. The petroleum reserve is part of this.

Having that capacity physically in the U.S. is the advantage. I don't particularly care how it gets done. We want excess refining capacity so selling the excess off gives us more market insensitivity as well as a hedge against those that would constrict the pipe. We are currently a net importer of crude and a net exporter of gasoline. We already make more than we can use. Keeping the crude in house is a strategic hedge.

And I respond politely and appropriately when the other person is also polite and appropriate. The place you called me out wasn't in response to anything you wrote so I am somewhat perplexed.
 
2012-08-06 01:36:00 AM

jjorsett: I believe that that legal principle has been superseded by the new Democratic principle of, " I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further." It applies to all sorts of things like immigration enforcement, appointments, drilling in the Gulf, etc.



Only stupid LIBTARDS learn from past mistakes and think things through!

What kind of idiot suspends offshore drilling after the Deepwater Horizon disaster? IDIOTS!

Your derp just keeps getting better and better
 
2012-08-06 01:47:05 AM

Smackledorfer: ox45tallboy: Our lifestyles have dramatically improved because of the cheap consumer goods we get from China

Not really. I'm a consumer of those cheap goods, but I wouldn't say consumption of crap has dramatically improved my lifestyle.

Given that outsourcing has helped push the elimination of the middle class, I might even say the American lifestyle has been dramatically worsened by the whole process.



Bingo. This is it in a nutshell. China basically opened up a market that had no excess wealth to buy stuff, flooded the labor market with poor but educated people. When it's done with commodities, it's called dumping but that's not really fair because these are people whose lives are improving (poor chinese underclass). Simply put, until there is some leveling of classes between China, India and the first world, disposable income in the west will decline and increase in China and India. The trick is to make sure their economy grows at a clip that creates wealth faster than the West loses it. The game of chicken is whether that market will be big enough and wealthy enough to start growing western markets before they collapse from debt. I suspect China will not allow that to happen and we will see a massive revaluation before free markets equalize out.
 
2012-08-06 01:49:07 AM

Chimperror2: before free markets equalize out.



This is your best one since your "gay people are diseased and need to be cured by therapy" rant
 
2012-08-06 01:57:15 AM

Smackledorfer: Not really. I'm a consumer of those cheap goods, but I wouldn't say consumption of crap has dramatically improved my lifestyle.

Given that outsourcing has helped push the elimination of the middle class, I might even say the American lifestyle has been dramatically worsened by the whole process.

Before you point to a smartphone or something, I'd be willing to pay more for the important goods and I might even have a higher wage to buy it with.


I've been in Alabama for the past month. These folks here are rather poor, especially in relation to the area of Atlanta (Norcross) I was staying in. But everyone has plates, dishes, silverware, clothing, and toys, and they scrape by. If these types of goods cost roughly 20-25% more, then these folks wouldn't have as much of them. Their kids would have fewer toys, they would have a smaller TV, and/or they would drive a less expensive automobile.

And these are the ones who actually do have jobs!

The rate of public assistance in this area is ridiculous. Making the goods cost more by protective tariff might provide more jobs, but since many of these people are living on disability or other government assistance, they probably wouldn't be working anyway, and the ones who would work those jobs wouldn't be able to afford more crap than they can afford on their current salary.
 
2012-08-06 02:00:27 AM

Chimperror2: I suspect China will not allow that to happen and we will see a massive revaluation before free markets equalize out.


You do realize that this is precisely the reason they keep the yuan undervalued instead of letting it be set by the market like most other countries?
 
2012-08-06 02:01:51 AM

bobbette: Too bad the author of that article has no clue that the Northern Gateway pipeline that would expedite the shipping of tar sands oil to China faces opposition from both of British Columbia's main political parties and cannot be built without British Columbians' permission.


Don't forget Kinder-Morgan's plan to twin the existing Trans-Mountain Pipeline that goes to Burnaby and Washington state. There's some opposition to it but it's not getting nearly as much media attention as the Enbridge one. One way or another, that oil will be sold.
 
2012-08-06 02:11:11 AM
And nowhere in this thread does the term "fungible commodity" occur.
 
2012-08-06 02:19:19 AM

red5ish: And nowhere in this thread does the term "fungible commodity" occur.


Umm...WHAT exactly does that mean... I'm Canadian eh, so I'm a bit dim... I'm not a business major - I'm a communications tech....

Google search - first exact match Link

I read it...Still not sure...

/Serious Question! You threw out an unusual term and maybe it has meaning and you're implying it does and we should all know, but put some explanation behind it please!
 
2012-08-06 02:29:18 AM

ox45tallboy: Smackledorfer: Not really. I'm a consumer of those cheap goods, but I wouldn't say consumption of crap has dramatically improved my lifestyle.

Given that outsourcing has helped push the elimination of the middle class, I might even say the American lifestyle has been dramatically worsened by the whole process.

Before you point to a smartphone or something, I'd be willing to pay more for the important goods and I might even have a higher wage to buy it with.

I've been in Alabama for the past month. These folks here are rather poor, especially in relation to the area of Atlanta (Norcross) I was staying in. But everyone has plates, dishes, silverware, clothing, and toys, and they scrape by. If these types of goods cost roughly 20-25% more, then these folks wouldn't have as much of them. Their kids would have fewer toys, they would have a smaller TV, and/or they would drive a less expensive automobile.

And these are the ones who actually do have jobs!

The rate of public assistance in this area is ridiculous. Making the goods cost more by protective tariff might provide more jobs, but since many of these people are living on disability or other government assistance, they probably wouldn't be working anyway, and the ones who would work those jobs wouldn't be able to afford more crap than they can afford on their current salary.


Were you trying to make my point or counter it? You mentioned a bunch of stuff that people don't really need (toys and extra dishes) and that the reason they couldn't afford those things was their low wages and lack of jobs.

People had dishes and clothes during the great depression. Kids found ways to enjoy themselves and play.


I have to call shenanigans on your final paragraph there too. Everyone is on disability? No jobs created because nobody could work them except those who already have jobs? No increase in wage with a return of jobs over here? Some pretty huge generalizations you have there. You also seem to know an awful lot about everyone you meet for being there a month. Are you doing door to door surveys down there or what?
 
2012-08-06 02:55:49 AM

Representative of the unwashed masses: ReluctantPaladin: Actually, who knows if that pipeline is even going to go ahead.

Given:
The environmental assessment still to go through (yeah I know the Cons will put their thumbs on the scales for that one)
The inevitable lawsuits brought by first nations for the pipeline going through their land
The BC govts attempts to find some balls and extort the Alberta govt for increased royalties. (pre-election posturing)
Public support for the pipeline leaking faster than the oil going the Enbridge's other pipelines

it will be awhile before this project gets to the laying pipe (hehe) phase. Probably after the next election, and who is to say what will happen there.

/Agree that we should be getting more royalties
//Tar sands oil is hella dirty
///"Ethical oil" is fictional concept invented by a right wing tard douchebag

Don't pretend the BC government is being 'ethical' they're holding this project hostage for money. It's actually gotten to the point where the pipeline has almost no chance because of all the political BS. And it's not like it's raw bitumen. To go into a pipeline, especially that long, you have to upgrade it to at least normal light crude conditions.

Fun fact the stuff that comes out of Syncrude for example is a very high quality sweet crude after going through their plant.

/The more you know.


I believe that I made any comment on BC's motives, other than to say that it was pre-election posturing. I don't fpr a second think that BC's position is about anything other than greed/cynical posturing.

My comment re ethical oil was just reference that turd stain Ezra Levant
 
2012-08-06 04:09:08 AM

The Life Of Brian: /Serious Question! You threw out an unusual term and maybe it has meaning and you're implying it does and we should all know, but put some explanation behind it please!


Oil is a fungible commodity. It is sold on the world market at a price that is controlled by OPEC member nations (who can raise and lower their production and thus the price). It doesn't matter where the oil comes from. The author of the article either knows this and is just trying to score cheap shots against liberals in the United States and anger ignorant conservatives for political purposes, or the author doesn't know this and has no business writing about the subject. The idea that building a pipeline or drilling for more oil will have any affect on pricing is false. Unless, of course, a country should choose to nationalize its oil fields, production facilities and refineries, removing them from the world market. But that's not going to happen in the United States.

Since William Tucker is an energy "expert" there is very little chance that he doesn't know exactly how oil prices are set. It is pretty likely that he hopes his readers don't know how oil is bought and sold.

What motivates Tucker? I see three possibilities, none of which are mutually exclusive.
1. Tucker is a paid shill for the oil industry or is himself a large stockholder in the oil business.
C. Tucker is a paid shill for the GOP or is himself financially interested in having GOP policies put in place.
3. Tucker is an ignorant tool who doesn't know what he's talking about and is spreading disinformation and discord without any benefit to himself.

Since this article appears in the American Spectator I am guessing that the answer is C.
I hope this was helpful.
 
2012-08-06 04:42:30 AM
I don't know how to feel about this author/article - on the one hand he hates liberals, but on the other he doesn't seem to believe in American Exceptionalism.
 
2012-08-06 05:40:16 AM

intelligent comment below: Heron: You, like most marketeers, list off the "benefits" of China and leave it at that.


What do you mean? This is their DREAM of what a "perfect" America would be


sendtodave: But you can't say that outsourcing isn't worth the cost difference to the manufacturer, in terms of profit. In fact, it's just the opposite. They are making much more!


I never said it wasn't worth it. I just said the price difference is not as big as people think. Every time I hear someone talk about how you'd have to double the cost of an iPhone if you wanted to make it in America it reminds me of the ignorance that keeps cheap labor popular.

The cost of labor directly isn't the only cost in that equation either.

The point is simple, bringing manufacturing back to America isn't as expensive as everyone wants to believe. Prices might rise 5% at most when factoring in everything.

The biggest reason for cheap labor havens making companies money is what I first pointed out, the ridiculous tax breaks these companies receive after their lobbyists wrote the tax laws.


I'm sorry, but I'm drunk now, and I'm afriad that you may be a total coont.

You challenged me that I don't back up my claims, I just quote wikipedia (to show you how you are mistaken). Well, honestly, I didn't want to bother arguing on the Internet. But you complained, so, I gave you the information that you wanted. There are many incentives to outsource. Labor cost is a big one.

And you then deflect and say "I wasn't saying that it wasn't profitable, it's just not profitable to the consumer! Only 5% difference!"

That's not farking relevant, and you know it. It's profitable to the companies that outsource. And that is all that farking matters. They have incentive to do so. Profit motive.

Do you expect companies to go against their own incentives?

Yes? Then you are either an idealist or a moron.
 
2012-08-06 05:58:44 AM

sendtodave: That's not farking relevant, and you know it. It's profitable to the companies that outsource. And that is all that farking matters. They have incentive to do so. Profit motive.



You said "it's worth the cost of outsourcing" except the disappearing American middle class, lack of demand, and lack of tax revenue to the government disagree with you. All for a few percentage points in savings off the cost. So in that respect and all others, you're just plain wrong.
 
2012-08-06 06:08:12 AM
Thine blog, it sucketh muchly.
 
2012-08-06 06:27:02 AM

intelligent comment below: sendtodave: That's not farking relevant, and you know it. It's profitable to the companies that outsource. And that is all that farking matters. They have incentive to do so. Profit motive.


You said "it's worth the cost of outsourcing" except the disappearing American middle class, lack of demand, and lack of tax revenue to the government disagree with you. All for a few percentage points in savings off the cost. So in that respect and all others, you're just plain wrong.


What's wrong? The reality, or your perception of what that reality should be?

The reality is that is it very cost effective to outsource. It is in a company's interest to fark over American workers. Wow, that sucks. It's business. Reality can be cruel, for those with a weak stomach.

Anyway, are you done arguing the reality? Only that you don't agree with that reality? Cool. I fault no man for his idealism. But I fault fools that think their idealism somehow matter.

You feel this is terrible? Good for you. I respect that. You are a nice person. That doesn't change reality.

Do something if you want to change the world. Me? I don't care. I see both sides. I understand why companies don't care about working class Americans. Nor working class Chinese. It's obvious.

Don't think that's right?

Do I need to invoke dealwithitdog?

/rant rant rant drink rant angry now
 
2012-08-06 07:27:00 AM

NeedlesslyCanadian: Methadone Girls: ArkAngel: And Dunkin' Donuts is far superior to Tim Horton's

You take that back!! I've had coffee from Dunkin' Donuts and tossed it in the parking lot. How do you drink coffee from there? Bleh.

Timmies coffee is farking disgusting too. It's practically unthinkable, but McDonalds probably has the best fast-food coffee around.


This.
That.
Those.
Thems
 
2012-08-06 07:48:47 AM
"Today we are undergoing a similar dance in our economic relation with China. And wouldn't you know, it's our liberal friends in Congress, so enthusiastic about hamstringing American enterprise, who are the last to realize that they are undercutting our political hegemony as well."
i18.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-06 08:10:18 AM
Tim Horton's coffee tastes like burnt dirt
 
2012-08-06 08:17:27 AM

Mrbogey: mr intrepid: We would have got some short term (2 years or so) for construction, then a couple hundred jobs maintaining and monitoring. Spread out over the length of the pipeline, nothing really.

A couple hundred jobs long term earning about 40-60k$ a year on average... yea who wants that kind of money?

The choice was "money" or "no money". You chose "no money". Don't act like it was the best choice.


No. The choice was "a tiny pittance of money and a polluted aquifer in the middle of our nation's breadbasket" or "food."

Don't be a moron.
 
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