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(Politico)   Lindsey Graham thinks that Harry Reid thinking that Mitt Romney paid no taxes for 10 years is not a factually based thought   (politico.com) divider line 399
    More: Unlikely, Mitt Romney, Harry Reid, South Carolina Republican, Candy Crowley  
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2160 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Aug 2012 at 11:58 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-05 01:32:46 PM
Listen, just because the burden of proof is squarely on Mr. Romney, and has been since the start of his refusal to release his tax returns, while detractors are coming out of the woodwork stating that there are years he never paid taxes doesn't mean there is some kind of issue here.

What about the black guy?
 
2012-08-05 01:32:59 PM

Spare Me: Britney Spear's Speculum: I can do this all day sweetheart.

Last time I checked, in this country, it's on the accuser the burden of proof. Had Harry said that anywhere else outside of the Senate Floor, he would be sued into oblivion.


this isn't a court of law, this is politics. And in politics, perception is often reality. it's not fair, and you can get run over real quick if you aren't careful. sorry dude, but right now the perception is that Romney is 1. scared shiatless of his own tax returns and 2. is hiding something.

plus the fact that Romney has mishandled this tax return thing from the jump isn't helping any.
 
2012-08-05 01:33:09 PM

Spare Me: Last time I checked, in this country, it's on the accuser the burden of proof.



In multiple past campaigns, RMONEY has been the tax return accuser. He's always been the Reid in this situation -- accusing his opponent or his opponent's spouse of hiding their returns. So you and him and the rest of the Republican shills can go fark yourselves. The shoe is on the other foot now, and Rmoney is folding like a cheap suit.
 
2012-08-05 01:33:30 PM

DamnYankees: What angle could the Dems take?


Concern troll PAC (with a pro-life sounding name) would be the way I'd set it up. Ominous music playing over a slideshow of people pitchforking dead animals (like roadkill cleanup crews) into a truck. "Romney claims to be pro-life, yet he made millions off abortions." Then cut to a smiling white baby cooing in a crib and say "We expect more from a president."
 
2012-08-05 01:33:56 PM

Spare Me: Last time I checked, in this country, it's on the accuser the burden of proof.


paulboylan.files.wordpress.com

Last time I checked, in this country, heat-damaged inflatable sex dolls were too busy to balance a law career and a dental practice against a thriving real estate sales boom.
 
2012-08-05 01:33:57 PM
www.hipstercrite.com
RIP Lindsey Buckingham
 
2012-08-05 01:35:07 PM

shower_in_my_socks: Spare Me: Last time I checked, in this country, it's on the accuser the burden of proof.


In multiple past campaigns, RMONEY has been the tax return accuser. He's always been the Reid in this situation -- accusing his opponent or his opponent's spouse of hiding their returns. So you and him and the rest of the Republican shills can go fark yourselves. The shoe is on the other foot now, and Rmoney is folding like a cheap suit.


not just folding, he's imploding. I am continually amazed at how badly Romney's handled it.
 
2012-08-05 01:36:34 PM

Weaver95: not just folding, he's imploding. I am continually amazed at how badly Romney's handled it.


I wonder if he'll just up and quit within a month or two.
 
2012-08-05 01:36:49 PM

Weaver95: shower_in_my_socks: Spare Me: Last time I checked, in this country, it's on the accuser the burden of proof.


In multiple past campaigns, RMONEY has been the tax return accuser. He's always been the Reid in this situation -- accusing his opponent or his opponent's spouse of hiding their returns. So you and him and the rest of the Republican shills can go fark yourselves. The shoe is on the other foot now, and Rmoney is folding like a cheap suit.

not just folding, he's imploding. I am continually amazed at how badly Romney's handled it.


The temper on that guy. We all thought it would be McCain dropping an n-bomb during the debates. Maybe it'll be this buffoon
 
2012-08-05 01:37:03 PM

Smeggy Smurf: RexTalionis: Mitt Romney can easily prove him wrong.

I want to see proof that Harry Reid isn't a pedophile and a rapist. I heard it from an unnamed source so it must be true.


Nice try, but false analogy. Reid isn't refusing to release his police record.
 
2012-08-05 01:37:36 PM
I seriously doubt that Mitt has done anything that is technically illegal. There are too many loopholes created especially for people as rich as Romney for there to be any sort of case that he has done anything truly illegal. I don't think that is an issue here.

Here are the issues:

1) Mitt has run for president for a very long time. His own father set the standard for releasing tax returns. Knowing these two facts, he shows very poor judgement (and a lack of long-term thinking) if he honestly believes it is not a major issue for him to withhold his tax returns.

2) Mitt is running on a platform that has tax cuts for the rich as a major plank. He just proposed a tax reform that would result in lower taxes for those making $200K and increased taxes for those making less than $200K. Again, it would require very poor judgement on his part to believe he could do this, and no one would be interested in the real taxes paid by this very rich man.

3) His own party basically created the idea that innocent people have nothing to hide, so there's no such thing as privacy. Again, it is nothing less than foolishness on his part to act as if he would not be held to the same wrong-headed standard.

I don't want a fool for president.
 
2012-08-05 01:38:14 PM

Spare Me: Britney Spear's Speculum: I can do this all day sweetheart.

Last time I checked, in this country, it's on the accuser the burden of proof. Had Harry said that anywhere else outside of the Senate Floor, he would be sued into oblivion.


I am sure Harry would waive the congressional immunity of the speech and debate clause to be a defendant in that lawsuit as the very first thing he would do would be to file a document request for all of Mitt's tax returns and a judge would not grant a protective order to Mitt. I am also sure that the cross examination of Mitt under oath about his tax returns would be on the internet moments after completion.
 
2012-08-05 01:38:43 PM
Those who side with Romney and say that he did nothing illegal and the accused has to produce documents to show illegality, remember that this isn't a court case. It's an election. The Democrats don't have to prove that Romney did something illegal with his taxes (I doubt he did). The Democrats only have to prove that Romney is unelectable.

Let's say that Romney's effective federal income tax rates were 5% during those ten years. That would make him and the GOP's stance on lowered taxes and job creation an unelectable position. Let's say that he chose to pay himself a $1 salary, but earned millions that he put into his IRA and somehow also withdrew some of that to live off of.

Whatever speculation we want to put, all it has to do is make Romney unelectable, not put him in prison.
 
2012-08-05 01:39:16 PM

sprawl15: Weaver95: not just folding, he's imploding. I am continually amazed at how badly Romney's handled it.

I wonder if he'll just up and quit within a month or two.


He won't. It's far too lucrative for this slimeball to even risk his post-loss speaking and book income. And there's also the chance of him actually winning due to all the voter suppression.
 
2012-08-05 01:40:05 PM

Smeggy Smurf: RexTalionis: Mitt Romney can easily prove him wrong.

I want to see proof that Harry Reid isn't a pedophile and a rapist. I heard it from an unnamed source so it must be true.


If you were a senator, would you go to the press with that claim, then reiterate that claim on the senate floor, then post a written statement to the same effect?
 
2012-08-05 01:40:05 PM

sprawl15: Weaver95: not just folding, he's imploding. I am continually amazed at how badly Romney's handled it.

I wonder if he'll just up and quit within a month or two.


Or Romney might just have a temper tantrum on a live feed and kill his own campaign in a moment of uncontrolled rage. i'm sure Romney's also got enemies in the GOP who'd simply let him destroy himself, which he seems intent on doing.
 
2012-08-05 01:40:18 PM

NewportBarGuy: Mrbogey: Investor. Not partner.

Ya know, the word is interchangeable, right? I mean, it isn't, but people do it all the time. I'm just an investor, but actually a partner.

Yay! Semantics are fun!


But it goes straight to the heart of law and accounting; who gets paid first and is anything left for the other guy? And the answer is rarely the same one twice.
 
2012-08-05 01:40:25 PM

sprawl15: Weaver95: not just folding, he's imploding. I am continually amazed at how badly Romney's handled it.

I wonder if he'll just up and quit within a month or two.


I don't think he'll quit despite how much the GOP may want him to right now. He represents nearly everything that they have lambasted over the years as a tax-and-spend liberal from Taxachusetts. However, Romney has too much greed to want to quit and I'm not sure the GOP has anyone suitable to replace him. They sure as heck don't want to give it to Ron Paul as they are scared of him.
 
2012-08-05 01:42:16 PM

Mrbogey: dericwater: Other people could provide that information to them.

...and that would be illegal for them to do so. And it would be unethical to use them. That's why I said that you're tacitly acknowledging their corruptness. You said they'd ensure they came out. The only one who could legally ensure they come out is Romney.


DING DING DING!!!
 
2012-08-05 01:45:07 PM
Mitt has already admitted as late as 2004 that he didn't read his returns. His accountants filled them out and he signed them. If he continued that trend, he'd be in for a shock if he started to go ovlver them. My guess is he'll try to change his filings and make it look better. Or he's stalling for time in the hope he does what he did in MA - get people to ignore the little stuff.

Doesn't work that way Willard. Welcome to the big leagues.
 
2012-08-05 01:45:09 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2012-08-05 01:46:32 PM

t3knomanser: The IRS is the arbiter of the tax code. If the IRS says something is okay, then it is okay. That's their authority. Your other comparisons don't fulfill the same role- they're people put in roles to adjudicate rules set by others. The IRS makes the rules that it enforces.


Not getting caught is not the same as not having cheated.
 
2012-08-05 01:46:38 PM

Paul Baumer: Bonus: Romney called for his opponents returns on multiple occasions. The ads that quote him on this are going to be brutal

Link

My favorite - "It's time the biggest-taxing senator in Washington shows the people of Massachusetts how much he pays in taxes." He's a dead duck on the issue, and it's clear even to the American electorate.


That is fantastic.
 
2012-08-05 01:46:57 PM

Spare Me: Had Harry said that anywhere else outside of the Senate Floor, he would be sued into oblivion.


Romney would be required to provide his tax returns in discovery. I don't think you've thought your cunning hypothetical all the way through.
 
2012-08-05 01:47:57 PM

CptnSpldng: But it goes straight to the heart of law and accounting; who gets paid first and is anything left for the other guy? And the answer is rarely the same one twice.


Yes it does, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about how people refer to themselves. Some just want to be seen as an investor, some want to be seen as a partner. Some have money but no brains and confuse the two terms. It's not uncommon.

It does not refute the statement, and the only way we'll know is when Mitt releases 12 years of tax returns just like his dad.
 
2012-08-05 01:50:26 PM

artifishy: [i.imgur.com image 636x435]


Nice hiding a subliminal reference to the obama logo behind him there. OMG LIEberal MSM Mainstream Lamestream Media CONSPIRACY AGAINST STRONG HONEST CONSERVATIVE!!
 
2012-08-05 01:50:30 PM

artifishy: [i.imgur.com image 636x435]


It always amazed me how the Salt Lake Tribune of all papers has a liberal editorial cartoonist.

Dunno why, just did.
 
2012-08-05 01:50:44 PM

Spare Me: Britney Spear's Speculum: I can do this all day sweetheart.

Last time I checked, in this country, it's on the accuser the burden of proof. Had Harry said that anywhere else outside of the Senate Floor, he would be sued into oblivion.


He has said it outside the senate floor.

Also, there is no allegations that Romney's tax returns implicate Romney as being a tax criminal. All Reid said is that Romney paid no federal income taxes during the ten years. It's legally possible to do that. The accusation is not of a legal level. It's on an ethical level and Romney's decision to hide his tax returns demonstrates his lack of ethics.

No one is accusing Romney of any crimes here. No "beating your wife" or "sex with kids" claims. Those are criminal claims.
 
2012-08-05 01:53:22 PM

DamnYankees: sprawl15: Waxing_Chewbacca: Fluorescent Testicle: sprawl15: With 'millions in donations to planned parenthood' level exceptions excluded, of course.

Stericycle.

This. It'll kill him.

Eh, the Stericycle thing is already out. It can be handwaved away as a business investment / not actually in support of abortion bla bla. A big part of this is the Dems not really pressing that line of attack, though I figure that's the kind of thing they'd save for PACs to unleash nearer to the election.

It's more of a GOP primary thing, though. What angle could the Dems take? Romney is actually pro-choice? So are they. Not a great line of attack for them. This is something Santorum should have been saying in the primaries, but now its sort of moot.


He's said he wasn't involved in Bain then. If he was the religious right might stay home.
 
2012-08-05 01:53:29 PM

deadcrickets: sprawl15: Weaver95: not just folding, he's imploding. I am continually amazed at how badly Romney's handled it.

I wonder if he'll just up and quit within a month or two.

I don't think he'll quit despite how much the GOP may want him to right now. He represents nearly everything that they have lambasted over the years as a tax-and-spend liberal from Taxachusetts. However, Romney has too much greed to want to quit and I'm not sure the GOP has anyone suitable to replace him. They sure as heck don't want to give it to Ron Paul as they are scared of him.


I could see his temper flaring up in a bad way in behind the scene arguments with the right. Add that to a situation where he's clearly out of his element and I wouldn't be totally surprised to see him take his toys and go home.

What the fark the GOP would do in such a case is completely beyond me, though.
 
2012-08-05 01:54:06 PM
We're truly though the looking-glass when the major issue of a campaign is not only against the Republican candidate, but also something of substance.

It's like the Democrats have finally learned from the last 20 years of Republican tactics. It hilarious watching the Republicans panic when the guns are firing at them this time.
 
2012-08-05 01:54:18 PM

deadcrickets: Russad: NewportBarGuy: so, prove Harry Reid is a liar, Lispy. I don't really gie a damn as long as it forces Mittens to release his tax returns then we can explode that whole myth about how the "Job Creators" need tax cuts.

Your move, sunshine.

As much as I dislike Mitt, the burden of proof is entirely on Harry Reid here. It's bullshiat for him to make a claim and say he has a totally credible, anonymous source.

Actually the burden is on Mitt. He has admitted already that there is something in there that he refuses to show. He stated, and I'm paraphrasing here, that it would be worse for him to release it than to keep it hidden. He also claims that his taxes are on the up-and-up. The two statements are contradictory. Not to mention he badgered prior political competitors to release THEIR tax returns. That is hypocrisy; which is supposedly against both Mormon and Christian beliefs.


citation needed

/not a Romney apologizer
//just haven't seen that "quote" from the dbag
 
2012-08-05 01:55:14 PM

sprawl15: Weaver95: not just folding, he's imploding. I am continually amazed at how badly Romney's handled it.

I wonder if he'll just up and quit within a month or two.


Never! His dead daddy would stop loving him.
 
2012-08-05 01:57:24 PM

sprawl15: What the fark the GOP would do in such a case is completely beyond me, though.


They'd nominate Jindal, Christie or another VP option, then immediately go on the offensive with memos, interviews and out-of-context recordings indicating they wanted Rmoney to bow out the whole time and he refused.
 
2012-08-05 01:57:35 PM

coco ebert:

About McCain giving Reid the info- I dunno. McCain is pretty close with Lindsay Graham and Graham just called Reid out as a liar. Strange situation, but who knows...


There's been a suggestion, that because Harry Reid is a Mormon, someone in the LDS leaked some sort of financial info or tax returns that Romney that had to turn in to the Church to show he was tithing properly. Derailing the extremely GOP-friendly LDS's desire for a Mormon President would probably be an ex-communicable offense, so the "anonymous Bain investor" is a cover story.

The only reason I think there's something to this, is thaat Reid is too much of a cautious wimp to make wild speculations out of thin air.
 
2012-08-05 01:59:24 PM

Mrbogey: cameroncrazy1984: Romney hasn't produced evidence of his claim that Reid is lying. Ipso facto.

Still beating your wife?

Corvus: Sorry but no evidence does not prove something is NOT true like you are pretending it only means it is not proven to be true. That is not the same thing. You suck at logic.

It's like you're completely unaware of how logically bereft you are.

I was told by Senator Reid that you're in his employ. I think it's up to you to prove to us that you're not by releasing your IRS returns.

Under formal logic... that would be absurd. The onus would be on me to corroborate my claim that Reid told me this. However, in your screwed up world, you'd have to release your IRS returns to prove I'm lying.

How can you not get this? Is it willful? The obtuseness?

shower_in_my_socks: You really are a moron. I'm putting you on ignore after this one

Please do. If you can't realize the error of your ways through simple dialogue, then technologically reinforced ignorance would be advisable. A mind that is made up is only harmed by "inconveniences".


You must be very dizzy given the amount of time you spend spinning
 
2012-08-05 02:00:20 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Bontesla: No, Rmoney is keeping it alive for another 5 news cycles.

To what end?

If I were on his campaign, I'd be looking for a way to farking BURY this. And I'd be pissed off that Graham gave it one more chance in the public eye. Maybe amiable is right - maybe the GOP is going to fark with him on this. But that would lose them the election for sure. But then again, they don't have much of a chance as it stands, especially with Romney.


The only thing I could see the GOP getting out of outting Romney is that it would finally show that they have a smidgeon of an inkling that they have gone down the wrong path and it is time to cut the apron strings and switch paths. Sure they would lose this cycle, but if they could get any credibility back with the 35% of voters who do not claim either party, then it would be worth it to them I'm sure.

/hates the current GOP
 
2012-08-05 02:03:05 PM

Mrbogey: Russad:


/Republicans are unpatriotic and treasonous


/Republicans are unpatriotic and treasonous

//REPUBLICANS ARE UNPATRIOTIC AND TREASONOUS



/bears, bears, bears
 
2012-08-05 02:04:30 PM

sprawl15:

If Romney released a single return that showed he paid $1 in taxes, it would prove Reid 100% wrong.

That you think otherwise is absolutely hilarious.


That you think a guy raking in millions a year paying $1 in taxes would not be perceived as paying no taxes is absolutely retarded.
 
2012-08-05 02:04:33 PM

Waxing_Chewbacca: Mrbogey: cameroncrazy1984: Romney hasn't produced evidence of his claim that Reid is lying. Ipso facto.

Still beating your wife?

Corvus: Sorry but no evidence does not prove something is NOT true like you are pretending it only means it is not proven to be true. That is not the same thing. You suck at logic.

It's like you're completely unaware of how logically bereft you are.

I was told by Senator Reid that you're in his employ. I think it's up to you to prove to us that you're not by releasing your IRS returns.

Under formal logic... that would be absurd. The onus would be on me to corroborate my claim that Reid told me this. However, in your screwed up world, you'd have to release your IRS returns to prove I'm lying.

How can you not get this? Is it willful? The obtuseness?

shower_in_my_socks: You really are a moron. I'm putting you on ignore after this one

Please do. If you can't realize the error of your ways through simple dialogue, then technologically reinforced ignorance would be advisable. A mind that is made up is only harmed by "inconveniences".

You must be very dizzy given the amount of time you spend spinning


t1.gstatic.com
 
2012-08-05 02:06:42 PM
Romney thought this would not be an issue because he thought the economy would be in such dire straits that the American people would elect him in a panic without delving too much into his past. That may still happen, and the repubs are certainly doing everything in their power to paint the economy as teetering on the edge, but frankly, if you ask Reagan's old question--are you better off now than you were four years ago?--anyone who remembers the sense of impending doom, the crashing housing market, the major industries teetering on the edge of insolvency and the disappearing 401k's of four years ago, is gonna have to say yes. Even if you've lost your job on the Obama watch you're in better shape than if the repubs had been in power to deny you extended unemployment benefits and force you into a low-paying job. As I said, things could definitely take a turn for the worse, but failing that, Romney will have a serious problem winning this election.
 
2012-08-05 02:08:28 PM

Weaver95: sprawl15: Weaver95: not just folding, he's imploding. I am continually amazed at how badly Romney's handled it.

I wonder if he'll just up and quit within a month or two.

Or Romney might just have a temper tantrum on a live feed and kill his own campaign in a moment of uncontrolled rage. i'm sure Romney's also got enemies in the GOP who'd simply let him destroy himself, which he seems intent on doing.


I think this might actually occur. Romney thinks he's entitled to be President. Ironically, much like Teddy thought he was entitled when he took on Carter in '80. That wasn't Teddy's best moment, and it, and Carter's being an ineffectual Pres, put the D's back a decade or two. Romney is hardheaded and this entire situation could turn into a real GOP meltdown. You have to imagine that all those nutjobs on the far right who were never for him anyway are working on Plan B. Harry Reid tripled-down on this with the Senate floor speech and then putting it in writing. The Romney camp is spinning out of control.
 
2012-08-05 02:08:50 PM

clambam: the repubs are certainly doing everything in their power to paint the economy as teetering on the edge


"EVANSVILLE, Ind. (AP) - Mitt Romney attacked what he calls "an extraordinary series of policy failures" from President Barack Obama, but said Saturday that America is "poised to take off economically.""
 
2012-08-05 02:09:00 PM

t3knomanser: deadcrickets: Mitt claims he has done nothing wrong while on the other hand openly admitting that releasing his tax returns would make it worse.

And he's provided sufficient evidence: the IRS has approved of his returns. The idea that releasing his returns would make things worse doesn't require that he have done anything wrong- just that he did something complex enough that it could look wrong when shown to the public.

Don't get me wrong: I completely believe that there is all sorts of tax-dodging in his returns that would reveal him as the shiatheel he is. But Romney has fulfilled his obligation to the truth.


An obligation to "truth" as you put is NOT the same as your obligation to the United States public if you want to be the POTUS.
 
2012-08-05 02:12:04 PM
Karma Chameleon: I think Lindsey Graham is lying about not loving penises in his mouth.

Every time I see him now, it reminds me of the gay-minister-turned-vampire from True Blood.
 
2012-08-05 02:13:05 PM
It will be interesting which VP wants to tether themselves to a guy getting pwned about a standard presidential practice to release tax returns. It has dominated the new cycle for weeks and doesn't look to be going away anytime soon.
 
2012-08-05 02:14:33 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: "You know, his wife, who has hundreds of millions of dollars, she never released her tax returns. Somehow, this wasn't an issue."


I'm pretty sure they've filed jointly. I also suspect that the Ann Romney Trust is where some of the most heinous financial shiat happened, which is a big reason Romney doesn't want to release the returns.
 
2012-08-05 02:20:52 PM

Mrbogey: Corvus: Reid DOES have evidence of his claim he talked to someone who told him.

WHERE??

Corvus: And Romney refuses to show his returns Romney can give no evidence that he did paid therefore under your rules it means he lied.

You really have no idea how logic works, do you?

Corvus: What evidence do you have that he didn't?

Reid has not produced evidence of his claim. Ipso facto.


And Romney has never produced evidence of his claim that he "paid taxes every single year. A LOT of taxes" (the emphasis was his).

/you are a very good GOP apologizer mrbogey
//circular logic, no refutation of facts, no citations, just yell louder
///yelling louder to be right is the GOP way
 
2012-08-05 02:24:45 PM
Perhaps if folks hadn't fronted quite so much political hay about documentation in the last few years, we might not have this particular line gaining ground...

Just a thought.
 
2012-08-05 02:28:18 PM
upload.democraticunderground.com
 
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