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(ABC)   Obama: "Hell, we really didn't need to carry Pennsylvania anyway"   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 221
    More: Amusing, President Obama, Penn State, Pennsylvania, sports talk, Joe Paterno  
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7806 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Aug 2012 at 5:48 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-03 10:26:24 PM

GoldSpider: HighOnCraic: Is there a way to punish the people running the program without punishing the players?

Oh I dunno, maybe prosecute the people running the program and leave the players out of it?


I agree that should be done, but do you think that the football program should've been spared?
 
2012-08-03 10:27:19 PM

Mrtraveler01: Sorry but I don't feel sorry for the football program. shiat like this requires more than a slap on the wrist.


You don't cure brain cancer by cutting off the patient's head.
 
2012-08-03 10:27:41 PM

mrshowrules: If I murder someone and go to prison, my wife and kids will suffer horribly but that is the way the cookie crumbles. It was my responsibility. Penn State failed in its responsibility and are directly responsible for all the pain and suffering.


Thank you. It's been a long day.
 
2012-08-03 10:28:20 PM

Mrtraveler01: I agree that should be done, but do you think that the football program should've been spared?


I think the football program could have been impacted without taking away the accomplishments of those past teams' players.
 
2012-08-03 10:29:47 PM

GoldSpider: Mrtraveler01: Sorry but I don't feel sorry for the football program. shiat like this requires more than a slap on the wrist.

You don't cure brain cancer by cutting off the patient's head.


Its not brain cancer, it's leprosy, and we're not just trying to save the patient, we're trying to protect society.
 
2012-08-03 10:29:51 PM

GoldSpider: Mrtraveler01: Sorry but I don't feel sorry for the football program. shiat like this requires more than a slap on the wrist.

You don't cure brain cancer by cutting off the patient's head.


I'll ask this. Do you think the NCAA should've spared the football program from any punishment?

I think that Curley and Spainer, and all of them should be dragged through the mud and thrown in the gallows as well but I agree that the NCAA had to punish the program in some shape or form.

Surprised they were that harsh with it.
 
2012-08-03 10:31:39 PM

GoldSpider: Mrtraveler01: I agree that should be done, but do you think that the football program should've been spared?

I think the football program could have been impacted without taking away the accomplishments of those past teams' players.


I can understand that. But I think that part of the punishment was more of an FU to Joe Paterno and his winningest coach record more than anything else.
 
2012-08-03 10:31:52 PM

Mrtraveler01: I'll ask this. Do you think the NCAA should've spared the football program from any punishment?


See my last post (and others): I'm OK with all of the sanctions except for the vacated wins.
 
2012-08-03 10:32:44 PM

Mrtraveler01: But I think that part of the punishment was more of an FU to Joe Paterno and his winningest coach record more than anything else.


That's absolutely what it was, and it was utterly arbitrary and vindictive. That's not justice.
 
2012-08-03 10:33:30 PM
The people insisting that the sanctions are too harsh bring to mind this quote:
"He reminds me of the man who murdered both his parents, and then when sentence was about to be pronounced pleaded for mercy on the grounds that he was an orphan" - Abraham Lincoln
 
2012-08-03 10:34:13 PM

GoldSpider: HighOnCraic: Is there a way to punish the people running the program without punishing the players?

Oh I dunno, maybe prosecute the people running the program and leave the players out of it?


How do you strip Paterno of the wins without stripping them from the students? I'm torn about the losse of ten scholarships; does that apply to existing students, or does it just mean they have ten less to offer to future students?

/If Paterno had done a better job of protecting kids, the students in his program wouldn't have suffered.
 
2012-08-03 10:34:52 PM

GoldSpider: Mrtraveler01: But I think that part of the punishment was more of an FU to Joe Paterno and his winningest coach record more than anything else.

That's absolutely what it was, and it was utterly arbitrary and vindictive. That's not justice.


Does it make their individual records null and void though?

/honest question
 
2012-08-03 10:35:07 PM

mrshowrules: You are using bad analogies and comparisons because the reality is much harder to defend. The institution is be punished because it failed to fire/charge the bad people.


They're trying to punish an inanimate object ("The Institution") but all of the effects are falling squarely on past, current, and future student athletes, ALL of whom had nothing to do with the crime. It's hard to argue that they're not going directly after the students. Sure, vacating wins is just a symbolic punishment, but it's still hitting the wrong people. Killing scholarships and the football program for a bit is just petty, and totally mis-targeted.
 
2012-08-03 10:35:32 PM

HighOnCraic: How do you strip Paterno of the wins without stripping them from the students?


I don't think that should have happened at all, for reasons I've already explained.
 
2012-08-03 10:37:39 PM

Mrtraveler01: I'll ask this. Do you think the NCAA should've spared the football program from any punishment?


Punish the people responsible, not "the program". You can't effectively punish an inanimate object. If I drive drunk and run over someone, they don't light my car on fire as punishment.
 
2012-08-03 10:39:10 PM

Mrtraveler01: Does it make their individual records null and void though?

/honest question


That I don't know either, but ask any team player worth listening to and they'll tell you the individual stats aren't worth shiat without the wins.
 
2012-08-03 10:40:07 PM

stiletto_the_wise: mrshowrules: You are using bad analogies and comparisons because the reality is much harder to defend. The institution is be punished because it failed to fire/charge the bad people.

They're trying to punish an inanimate object ("The Institution") but all of the effects are falling squarely on past, current, and future student athletes, ALL of whom had nothing to do with the crime. It's hard to argue that they're not going directly after the students. Sure, vacating wins is just a symbolic punishment, but it's still hitting the wrong people. Killing scholarships and the football program for a bit is just petty, and totally mis-targeted.


Institutions are people, my friend. Of course they are.
 
2012-08-03 10:40:24 PM

stiletto_the_wise: Killing scholarships and the football program for a bit is just petty, and totally mis-targeted.


Why? You think nothing should've happened to the program?

What should the NCAA have done in your eyes. GoldSpider gave me a very rational answer.

I can understand the taking the wins away and all of that but how is banning them from the postseason, fining them for $60 million, and putting them on a 5-year probation "petty, and totally mis-targeted"?
 
2012-08-03 10:41:12 PM

GoldSpider: Mrtraveler01: Sorry but I don't feel sorry for the football program. shiat like this requires more than a slap on the wrist.

You don't cure brain cancer by cutting off the patient's head.


That's a bit hyperbolic.* The program still exists. In four years, they'll be able to play in bowl games again.


*I know, "Welcome to Fark!"
 
2012-08-03 10:42:26 PM

Mrtraveler01: What should the NCAA have done in your eyes. GoldSpider gave me a very rational answer.


We've been having that back-and-forth for weeks here. I'm glad some of it is starting to sink in!
 
2012-08-03 10:42:28 PM

stiletto_the_wise: Punish the people responsible, not "the program".


Who should the NCAA punish then? Why should the program that was responsible and that took part in this be spared?

Was Ohio State's program spared when they got caught getting gifts and selling memrobelia? Was USC's program spared when they did their shady stuff?

Why should Penn State's program be spared even though what they did was 100 times more heinous than what Ohio State and USC did combined?
 
2012-08-03 10:43:09 PM

HighOnCraic: That's a bit hyperbolic.* The program still exists. In four years, they'll be able to play in bowl games again.


My point is there's no benefit in punishing people who don't need to be punished.
 
2012-08-03 10:43:45 PM

Mrtraveler01: I can understand the taking the wins away and all of that but how is banning them from the postseason, fining them for $60 million, and putting them on a 5-year probation "petty, and totally mis-targeted"?


Because "them" means current and future students who had nothing to do with kiddie rape.
 
2012-08-03 10:45:48 PM

GoldSpider: HighOnCraic: Is there a way to punish the people running the program without punishing the players?

Oh I dunno, maybe prosecute the people running the program and leave the players out of it?


You totally missed the point that when something like this happens everybody feels it. When the wrong doing was uncovered by Enron executives, the executives were punished, but everybody at the company and their families were affected also. When the wrong doing was uncovered at Arthur Anderson, not only did the executives that were convicted of wrongdoing feel it, but employees that had nothing to do with the wrong doing were affected. Were you arguing that those companies shouldn't face fines and sanctions because it would hurt the employees? I doubt it.

The way only way for people who aren't involved in any wrongdoing by higher ups in an organization not to be affected when the wrongdoers get caught is for the higher ups not to be complicate in any wrongdoing in the first place. Your anger for the students that are being "victimized" as you say because they don't have a good football team, or the ex-players that are "victimized" because their achievements were wiped from the record books should be pointed at the rapist, and the people at the school that covered for the rapist and allowed him to continue raping. Not with the NCAA for doing their job and doing what needed to be done.
 
2012-08-03 10:46:32 PM

stiletto_the_wise: Because "them" means current and future students who had nothing to do with kiddie rape.


Eh, here we'll disagree (and go figure, you defending the football program more than me!). There's an unhealthy culture around Penn State football that I think needs to be throttled back. The fanatics (like the people who harassed the victims) need to be examine their priorities.
 
2012-08-03 10:46:58 PM

GoldSpider: HighOnCraic: That's a bit hyperbolic.* The program still exists. In four years, they'll be able to play in bowl games again.

My point is there's no benefit in punishing people who don't need to be punished.


But we can at least agree that no one has been beheaded, yes?
 
2012-08-03 10:47:11 PM

stiletto_the_wise: Mrtraveler01: I can understand the taking the wins away and all of that but how is banning them from the postseason, fining them for $60 million, and putting them on a 5-year probation "petty, and totally mis-targeted"?

Because "them" means current and future students who had nothing to do with kiddie rape.


So the football program shouldn't have been punished in any way shape or form then?
 
2012-08-03 10:47:12 PM

stiletto_the_wise: mrshowrules: You are using bad analogies and comparisons because the reality is much harder to defend. The institution is be punished because it failed to fire/charge the bad people.

They're trying to punish an inanimate object ("The Institution") but all of the effects are falling squarely on past, current, and future student athletes, ALL of whom had nothing to do with the crime. It's hard to argue that they're not going directly after the students. Sure, vacating wins is just a symbolic punishment, but it's still hitting the wrong people. Killing scholarships and the football program for a bit is just petty, and totally mis-targeted.


They are an organization not unlike a company. When a person, company or organization is punished, it also hurts innocent people. The Boy Scouts have settled lawsuits for child molesters also. Large sums of money have been paid (normally sealed) that no doubt effected Boy Scout troops across the country that had nothing to do with the scandal.

Penn State should either be fined or not. That is a legal question. If they are to be fined, it must be a fine that really hurts commensurate with the seriousness of what they did. How ever you measure that.

I think the fine should be at least 10 times larger than the pain of dealing with the issue to begin with. If the organization (their trusted agents) had dealt with this properly at first. If they had dealt with the rape right at the beginning, it would have embarrassed them and would have had both direct an indirect impact to their revenues over the years. Perhaps, $10M for example. The fine/penalty must be much higher than that otherwise the incentives for other institutions to cover it up will remain as a sound business case (acceptable risk).
 
2012-08-03 10:49:57 PM

stiletto_the_wise: Weaver95: don't cover up kiddie rape. it's bad and bad things happen to you when you eventually get caught.

It would be nice if the actual people who covered up kiddie rape were punished, instead of random past and future student athletes.


Oh puleeze. Any star athlete can still go to any other school to be a star. And athletic scholarships are still awarded.

This was a systemic problem, a problem with the Penn State system itself. Not just the athletic program, but nearly every part of the school was too wrapped up in it's athletic program and allowed it to do evil things like letting boys get anally raped in showers and covering up. What they're done is taken the school athletic program and put a foot on it's neck, stopping it. Now what the school can do, because they can't achieve anything in sports for 4 years, is focus on the school itself. Re-prioritize their priorities.

Ya, some athletes are going to get the shaft i'm sure... but in 10 or 15 years, we'll hopefully all look back and see all the other good things the school has done instead during that time. Maybe they could excel in science and technology like MIT or Berkeley. Maybe it'll be business like Harvard, maybe law like Yale.

This was not just a football or athletic issue. It was a systemic problem with the school itself. The athletic program had sooo much power that even the president of the school feared upsetting the coaches, even when they raped little boys.

Do you know what an 8 or 9 year old boy looks like? Google it if you can't appreciate the size of a boy that young. Now imagine a large adult football coach raping him. There were witnesses, there were people that spoke out, and it was all covered up to the very top.
 
2012-08-03 10:53:13 PM

moralpanic: Ya, some athletes are going to get the shaft i'm sure.


They are. And they're just leaving Penn State for other schools. Which is fine with me.

Link
 
2012-08-03 10:53:17 PM

GoldSpider: Eh, here we'll disagree (and go figure, you defending the football program more than me!). There's an unhealthy culture around Penn State football that I think needs to be throttled back. The fanatics (like the people who harassed the victims) need to be examine their priorities.


Penn State Football is a scary, crazed cult for sure, and Happy Valley is like the Waco compound. It should be dialed back because sports shouldn't be treated with way more importance than academics. Not because a rogue staffmember was raping kids in one of the buildings. Leave that to the criminal justice system.

Mrtraveler01: So the football program shouldn't have been punished in any way shape or form then?


The whole "Football Program" should not be punished because some of the football program's leadership were covering up kiddie rape.
 
2012-08-03 10:54:27 PM

moralpanic: Do you know what an 8 or 9 year old boy looks like? Google it if you can't appreciate the size of a boy that young. Now imagine a large adult football coach raping him. There were witnesses, there were people that spoke out, and it was all covered up to the very top.


I agree, it's terrible, and the people who covered it up should spend the rest of their lives in jail as far as I'm concerned.
 
2012-08-03 10:58:04 PM

stiletto_the_wise: Mrtraveler01: So the football program shouldn't have been punished in any way shape or form then?

The whole "Football Program" should not be punished because some of the football program's leadership were covering up kiddie rape.


That's how it works in the NCAA. Just look at Ohio State and USC as examples of the whole program being punished for the actions of a few.

shiat happens and frankly, I don't give a damn about the program.
 
2012-08-03 10:58:11 PM

stiletto_the_wise: moralpanic: Do you know what an 8 or 9 year old boy looks like? Google it if you can't appreciate the size of a boy that young. Now imagine a large adult football coach raping him. There were witnesses, there were people that spoke out, and it was all covered up to the very top.

I agree, it's terrible, and the people who covered it up should spend the rest of their lives in jail as far as I'm concerned.


And anybody else in that position would have done the same thing. It was a problem with the system itself. The other coaches aren't evil. The board members aren't evil. The president of the school wasn't evil. Just like the Germans during Nazi Germany weren't evil, these people acted the way they did because of the system.

It's 4 years. If you need to cry or feel things are unjust, cry for the 9 boys that spoke out (and who knows how many countless haven't). Don't farking cry for an athletic program.
 
2012-08-03 11:03:11 PM

GoldSpider: How would you feel if someone tried to tell you the work you did over the past 13 years didn't happen and didn't count because your boss was a crooked?


Football is a game. Grow up.
 
2012-08-03 11:03:11 PM

stiletto_the_wise: Not because a rogue staffmember was raping kids in one of the buildings. Leave that to the criminal justice system.


A "rogue staffmember" whose crimes were covered up by Paterno and members of the Penn State administration. A staffmemeber who was still given full access to the football programs facilities, games, etc, after he was forced to retire.

stiletto_the_wise: For a start, how about punishing the people who were actually covering up kiddie rape?


You mean like the members of the Penn State adminstation who were indicted by a state grand jury, who will be tried and (very likely) go to jail for their actions?

Are you trolling or stupid? Either way, you seem to know NOTHING of the facts of the case.
 
2012-08-03 11:08:12 PM

Dwight_Yeast: You mean like the members of the Penn State adminstation who were indicted by a state grand jury, who will be tried and (very likely) go to jail for their actions?


If all goes well.
 
2012-08-03 11:15:49 PM

stiletto_the_wise: Dwight_Yeast: You mean like the members of the Penn State adminstation who were indicted by a state grand jury, who will be tried and (very likely) go to jail for their actions?

If all goes well.


Yeah, it's a shame we do that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing. *eyeroll*
 
2012-08-03 11:18:43 PM

Dwight_Yeast: stiletto_the_wise: Dwight_Yeast: You mean like the members of the Penn State adminstation who were indicted by a state grand jury, who will be tried and (very likely) go to jail for their actions?

If all goes well.

Yeah, it's a shame we do that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing. *eyeroll*


At least I can spell "administration."
 
2012-08-03 11:19:26 PM
"I think it does," Obama said. "I mean, I have been a big admirer of Penn State football. Obviously Joe Paterno was a great football coach. But there are some things that are just more important than sports. And making sure our kids are safe is more important than sports."

If that statement loses PA, then f*ck PA.
 
2012-08-03 11:22:08 PM

Coco LaFemme: Well, we already know that Penn State alum Rick Santorum thinks the sanctions were wrong, and that he defends Joe Paterno, so the bar that has been set for politicians re: the Penn State scandal is, "Don't be like Rick Santorum." Doesn't take much effort, but I applaud the President for recognizing that enabling the raping of children should be punished.


In all fairness, Santorum is Catholic. He just thinks being raped by authority figures is part of growing up.
 
2012-08-03 11:26:53 PM

bgilmore5: In all fairness, Santorum is Catholic. He just thinks being raped by authority figures is part of growing up.


profile.ak.fbcdn.net
 
2012-08-03 11:27:30 PM

stiletto_the_wise: At least I can spell "administration."


If that's the best you can do, just concede and keep a shred of dignity intact.
 
2012-08-03 11:29:06 PM

stiletto_the_wise: At least I can spell "administration."


Meh. Weak sauce.

Don't Troll Me Bro!: If that statement loses PA, then f*ck PA.


Yeah, that's not going to cost him PA. Subby is a moron.
 
2012-08-03 11:31:33 PM
Pederasts for Anybody But Obama!
 
2012-08-03 11:36:57 PM

Weaver95: great - now the GOP is going to have to take a pro-pedophila stance. as a rule


Um.................they already are. In fact, they have been pro-pedo for decades

Wiki up the words "Franklin Credit Union Scandal".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Coverup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3IsCPOADc4


I love to bring up this little scandal every time some dickhead from OmaHell starts mouthing off about "Counciltucky". :)
 
2012-08-03 11:50:53 PM
WE ARE
existens.org

Thanks for the fun, folks :-)
 
2012-08-03 11:55:41 PM

stiletto_the_wise: Weaver95: don't cover up kiddie rape. it's bad and bad things happen to you when you eventually get caught.

It would be nice if the actual people who covered up kiddie rape were punished, instead of random past and future student athletes.


Those poor kids who have to watch a bad football team!
 
2012-08-03 11:59:42 PM

stiletto_the_wise: The whole "Football Program" should not be punished because some of the football program's leadership were covering up kiddie rape.


And by the same token, the whole "Football Team" should not be awarded a first down just because some of the team's players managed to move the ball forward 10 yards.
 
2012-08-04 12:04:30 AM

poot_rootbeer: stiletto_the_wise: The whole "Football Program" should not be punished because some of the football program's leadership were covering up kiddie rape.

And by the same token, the whole "Football Team" should not be awarded a first down just because some of the team's players managed to move the ball forward 10 yards.


That makes sense...why does the defensive line get a championship ring. All they did--if they ever set foot on the field--is run and hug another guy for 60 minutes.
 
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