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(Slate)   Things are going about as well as you'd expect for conservatives trying to defend PA's voter ID law   (slate.com) divider line 196
    More: Amusing, von Spakovsky, Deputy Attorney General, voter ID, Crawley, Michael Rubin, poll workers, Lorriane Minnite  
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6182 clicks; posted to Politics » on 02 Aug 2012 at 6:45 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-02 05:53:03 PM  
The main difference between a lawyer and an academic is that a lawyer is trained to be a partisan advocate for whatever position he is being paid to hold, and the academic is trained to be a partisan advocate for truth.
 
2012-08-02 06:00:15 PM  

abb3w: The main difference between a lawyer and an academic is that a lawyer is trained to be a partisan advocate for whatever position he is being paid to hold, and the academic is trained to be a partisan advocate for truth.


The academic is awesome if they're on your side. Otherwise they should be kicked out of academia.

/what Republicans actually believe.
 
2012-08-02 06:01:54 PM  
The only purpose of the voter ID law is to give all of PA's electoral votes to Mitt Romney.
 
2012-08-02 06:13:32 PM  
ionenewsone.files.wordpress.com

Pennsylvania LOVES blah people.


///one invisible small penis and one invisble VERY small penis.
 
2012-08-02 06:15:33 PM  
POW! Right in the statisticals!
 
2012-08-02 06:15:53 PM  
Everyone who helped pass that law or tries to defend it should be rounded up and left on a deserted island to fend for themselves.
 
2012-08-02 06:40:15 PM  
That was an epic beatdown. These Republicans live in a pseudo-reality of massaged data and partisan "facts" -- as soon as you shine a little sunlight on their operation, their accusations and justifications simply evaporate.

"Do you have a degree in election administration?" Hehehe... I know she doesn't have one, so she'll really look like an underqualifi---

"Such a thing does not exist. Are you a complete f*cking idiot?"

"Umm, er.... next question, your honor!"
 
2012-08-02 06:41:22 PM  

DeltaPunch: That was an epic beatdown. These Republicans live in a pseudo-reality of massaged data and partisan "facts" -- as soon as you shine a little sunlight on their operation, their accusations and justifications simply evaporate.

"Do you have a degree in election administration?" Hehehe... I know she doesn't have one, so she'll really look like an underqualifi---

"Such a thing does not exist. Are you a complete f*cking idiot?"

"Umm, er.... next question, your honor!"


Why can't someone just get their GED in Election Administration?
 
2012-08-02 06:50:45 PM  
As long as it's on the books and enforceable in November, the Pennsylvania GOP won't care about defending it.
 
2012-08-02 06:50:58 PM  
There is voter fraud! I done wrote Mickey Mouse down when that Acorn lady came to my house!
 
2012-08-02 06:52:08 PM  
I am so very, very confused by this. So very confused.

If you want to vote, you have to show a valid state issued ID. Why is that a bad thing exactly? Can someone please explain that to me?
 
2012-08-02 06:52:35 PM  
"Your formal education, if I read your CV correctly, does not include specific training in election administration, does it?" he asked.

"I don't know what you mean by training," said Minnite.

"Did you get any degree or take courses that were specifically geared toward election administraion?"

"Actually, there are no degrees in election administration."


PWNED
 
2012-08-02 06:53:13 PM  

LarryDan43: There is voter fraud! I done wrote Mickey Mouse down when that Acorn lady came to my house!


cache.gawker.com

Right on, man. Want to see my rape dildo boat?
 
2012-08-02 06:53:44 PM  
Anything that prevents the poors from hoping to have their voice heard is voter fraud by default, right? That's how it works?
 
2012-08-02 06:54:33 PM  

MJMaloney187: I am so very, very confused by this. So very confused.

If you want to vote, you have to show a valid state issued ID. Why is that a bad thing exactly? Can someone please explain that to me?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_St a tes_Constitution
 
2012-08-02 06:54:45 PM  

abb3w: The main difference between a lawyer and an academic is that a lawyer is trained to be a partisan advocate for whatever position he is being paid to hold, and the academic is trained to be a partisan advocate for truth.


You know how I can tell you didn't go to college?
 
2012-08-02 06:56:02 PM  

SilentStrider: Everyone who helped pass that law or tries to defend it should be rounded up and left on a deserted island to fend for themselves.


They could vote people off, like on Survivor, and see how much "fraud" actually occurs...
 
2012-08-02 06:56:26 PM  

abb3w: The main difference between a lawyer and an academic is that a lawyer is trained to be a partisan advocate for whatever position he is being paid to hold, and the academic is trained to be a partisan advocate for truth.


Sorry, but this is bullshiat. Too many cover ups of academic fraud and sexual misconduct.
 
2012-08-02 06:56:27 PM  

MJMaloney187: I am so very, very confused by this. So very confused.

If you want to vote, you have to show a valid state issued ID. Why is that a bad thing exactly? Can someone please explain that to me?


If it costs money, it's a poll tax.
 
2012-08-02 06:57:00 PM  
Words...words....words....I better find out what Rush thinks about this. He'll tell me what to think.
 
2012-08-02 06:57:35 PM  

PluckYew: abb3w: The main difference between a lawyer and an academic is that a lawyer is trained to be a partisan advocate for whatever position he is being paid to hold, and the academic is trained to be a partisan advocate for truth.

Sorry, but this is bullshiat. Too many cover ups of academic fraud and sexual misconduct.


Like that whole "evolution" thing.
 
2012-08-02 06:58:29 PM  

MJMaloney187: I am so very, very confused by this. So very confused.

If you want to vote, you have to show a valid state issued ID. Why is that a bad thing exactly? Can someone please explain that to me?


Because it costs money. Or the copy of your Social Security card costs money. Or the certified copy of your Birth Certificate, or your passport...

That's why. Some states DO make a truly free voter ID, and I'm fine with that, but otherwise, there ARE costs involved, and while they may be minimal as far as you and I are concerned, that can add up to a few days' worth of food for a starving family.
 
2012-08-02 06:59:11 PM  

PluckYew: abb3w: The main difference between a lawyer and an academic is that a lawyer is trained to be a partisan advocate for whatever position he is being paid to hold, and the academic is trained to be a partisan advocate for truth.

Sorry, but this is bullshiat. Too many cover ups of academic fraud and sexual misconduct.


But you'll concede that a lawyer is not even supposed to be neutral.
 
2012-08-02 06:59:52 PM  

12349876: MJMaloney187: I am so very, very confused by this. So very confused.

If you want to vote, you have to show a valid state issued ID. Why is that a bad thing exactly? Can someone please explain that to me?

If it costs money, it's a poll tax.


If you have to pay for gas, taxi, bus or whatever to get to the polling place, it's a poll tax.

If you need to put a stamp on your mail ballot, it's a poll tax.

Cool, I'll expect a refund soon.
 
2012-08-02 07:05:13 PM  
The states' attorneys objected as she started to talk about specific fraud prosecutions and indictments.

I love that part. A case about preventing voter fraud and they don't want to talk about voter fraud.
 
2012-08-02 07:05:16 PM  
So, I have a question on the voter ID issue...

1) If you don't have it, can you just use a provisional balot?
2) Does the law offer a remedy to provide state issued ID at no cost for someone who can't afford it.

I don't see a problem with voter ID laws, as long as they provide a legal remedy if it's a mandate. IF the point of the law is to identify legit voters, then there is going to have to be a method of doing that. Further, if it's a mandate, it should not be a cost borne by the individual. Also, if we are talking about the "Poor" in such terms as to make us feel sorry for them for this unreasonable burden, isn't getting a friggin state issued ID one step to not being poor? How do these "poor" get their social security, or how do they get a job, buy smokes or beer? To further it along, in some states the libs are all for giving every single person a drivers license, in that it "Brings them into the light". Getting the poor to have a state issued ID also does not "Bring them into the light?"
 
2012-08-02 07:05:21 PM  
Is it just me or did that article just sort of end?

I kept refreshing the page thinking it didn't load, but nope it was all there
 
2012-08-02 07:05:54 PM  

MJMaloney187: I am so very, very confused by this. So very confused.

If you want to vote, you have to show a valid state issued ID. Why is that a bad thing exactly? Can someone please explain that to me?


Showing an ID is fine. The problem is that the government is explicitly barred from making people pay to vote.

The states passing these laws are making people pay to get the ID they need to vote. This is in addition to the burden posed by acquiring (and paying for) supporting documentation and the time spent during work hours at the government office actually getting the ID. This burden is compounded by creative modifications to office hours and locations, such as closing DMVs or limiting hours in cities - which tend Democratic - and opening more in rural areas, which tend Republican. This partisan split becomes even more obvious when you consider the fact that the states that are pushing these laws are largely controlled by the GOP.

From a policy standpoint, the type of voter fraud that voter ID claims to prevent is virtually nonexistent and has never happened in sufficient numbers to swing an election, so there's no reason to spend all this time preventing it. The majority of voting fraud is electoral fraud: miscounted ballots, uncounted ballots, lost ballots, inaccurate results, etc., which is largely perpetrated by people in positions of authority and not the voters.
 
2012-08-02 07:06:57 PM  
We now have two groups of people.

People who recognize a problem with voter fraud and want to do something about it because it doesn't favor them.

People who recognize a problem with voter fraud and want to do nothing about it because they benefit from it.
 
2012-08-02 07:08:36 PM  

randomjsa: We now have two groups of people.

People who recognize a problem with voter fraud and want to do something about it because it doesn't favor them.

People who recognize a problem with voter fraud and want to do nothing about it because they benefit from it.


Well, those certainly are two groups. Is everyone supposed to fit into one of them?
 
2012-08-02 07:08:41 PM  

Nem Wan: PluckYew: abb3w: The main difference between a lawyer and an academic is that a lawyer is trained to be a partisan advocate for whatever position he is being paid to hold, and the academic is trained to be a partisan advocate for truth.

Sorry, but this is bullshiat. Too many cover ups of academic fraud and sexual misconduct.

But you'll concede that a lawyer is not even supposed to be neutral.


What about academic lawyers?

Absolutely attorneys are trained to win regardless if they really believe their arguments. It's kind of required for the system to work.
 
2012-08-02 07:09:02 PM  
We now have two groups of people.

People who looked at the numbers and know voter fraud isn't a problem - and in fact, election fraud perpetrated by political officials is.

People who wet themselves and regularly forget where they are.
 
2012-08-02 07:09:36 PM  

randomjsa: We now have two groups of people.

People who recognize a problem with voter fraud and want to do something about it because it doesn't favor them.

People who recognize a problem with voter fraud and want to do nothing about it because they benefit from it.


This is where you link to proof the form of voter fraud that can be prevented by id check is not already being stopped by current safeguards (signature check here in PA), or has ever swung an election, or is not just as likely to happen with fake IDs.
 
2012-08-02 07:10:38 PM  

Cletus C.: 12349876: MJMaloney187: I am so very, very confused by this. So very confused.

If you want to vote, you have to show a valid state issued ID. Why is that a bad thing exactly? Can someone please explain that to me?

If it costs money, it's a poll tax.

If you have to pay for gas, taxi, bus or whatever to get to the polling place, it's a poll tax.

If you need to put a stamp on your mail ballot, it's a poll tax.

Cool, I'll expect a refund soon.


You are a very special kind of stupid.
 
2012-08-02 07:10:39 PM  
We now have two groups of people.

People who recognize a problem with voter fraud and want a blue popsicle before we go to the store or they won't put their shoes on.

People who once toured with Def Leppard and sometimes forget to put their shoes on because of acid flashbacks.
 
2012-08-02 07:10:48 PM  

randomjsa: We now have two groups of people.

People who recognize a problem with voter fraud and want to do something about it because it doesn't favor them.

People who recognize a problem with voter fraud and want to do nothing about it because they benefit from it.


By all means, please respond to furiousxgeorge and provide proof of voter fraud, etc.
 
2012-08-02 07:12:38 PM  

Sock Ruh Tease: We now have two groups of people.

People who looked at the numbers and know voter fraud isn't a problem - and in fact, election fraud perpetrated by political officials is.

People who wet themselves and regularly forget where they are.


Of course, people from both groups are the problem....Specifically, the people from the first group who KNOW voter fraud isn't a problem, but are deliberately trying to disenfranchise people.
 
Kiz
2012-08-02 07:12:48 PM  
The problem with this sort of law is that it's deliberately designed to affect minorities more.

Blacks, for example, are more than 3x as likely to not having a state photo ID and use alternate forms of ID (student ID, bill paperwork, etc.) instead. That's fine, almost everywhere will accept alternate forms of ID....

Except for these sorts of laws, which are generally written to deliberately exclude student IDs and other alternate forms of IDs because Democrats are significantly more likely to use them instead.
 
2012-08-02 07:12:53 PM  

MJMaloney187: I am so very, very confused by this. So very confused.

If you want to vote, you have to show a valid state issued ID. Why is that a bad thing exactly? Can someone please explain that to me?


Showing ID in and of itself isn't a bad thing.

The problem is the way the voter ID laws are written. They're written specifically to give certain voters a hard time voting. Namely, they're designed to disenfranchise those people.

For example, Wisconsin's voter ID law* has certain requirements for valid voting ID that must all be on one item in order to count -- it must have your name, current address, photo and signature, and must have been issued at least 28 days before the election(the old requirement was ten days); if it doesn't meet all of the requirements, it cannot be used even in conjunction with documents to make up for the missing criteria (for example, DL with old address plus utility bill/renter's agreement/mortgage/vehicle registration/etc. would not be acceptable for voting -- this prevents college student IDs from being used at polling stations).

Then there's the matter of portions of the voter ID law which closed DMV offices in neighborhoods full of demographics who tend to vote Democrat, and reduced the hours in other offices. Another section addresses the availability of free non-driver IDs for people who cannot afford to pay the $28 fee to get one -- specifically, by making it harder for poor people to get it by expressly prohibiting DMV workers from telling people about it unless they ask first.

*is it still enforceable, or did it get struck down by the courts?
 
2012-08-02 07:13:24 PM  
We now have 10 groups of people.

People who understand binary numbers.

People who don't understand binary numbers.
 
2012-08-02 07:13:34 PM  

Cletus C.: 12349876: MJMaloney187: I am so very, very confused by this. So very confused.

If you want to vote, you have to show a valid state issued ID. Why is that a bad thing exactly? Can someone please explain that to me?

If it costs money, it's a poll tax.

If you have to pay for gas, taxi, bus or whatever to get to the polling place, it's a poll tax.

If you need to put a stamp on your mail ballot, it's a poll tax.

Cool, I'll expect a refund soon.


We do vote-by-mail in Oregon. You don't have to spend a stamp to send in your ballot. You can drop it off at the many drop boxes found around the area, such as at libraries. I've never actually mailed in my mail-in-ballot once in the entire time we've been doing it.
 
2012-08-02 07:13:46 PM  

MJMaloney187: I am so very, very confused by this. So very confused.

If you want to vote, you have to show a valid state issued ID. Why is that a bad thing exactly? Can someone please explain that to me?


No.
 
2012-08-02 07:13:52 PM  

Sock Ruh Tease: We now have 10 groups of people.

People who understand binary numbers.

People who don't understand binary numbers.


And people who mistake binary for ternary.
 
2012-08-02 07:14:43 PM  

King Something: *is it still enforceable, or did it get struck down by the courts?


It is still being decided, but will not apply this election in any case.
 
2012-08-02 07:15:23 PM  

MJMaloney187: I am so very, very confused by this. So very confused.

If you want to vote, you have to show a valid state issued ID. Why is that a bad thing exactly? Can someone please explain that to me?


And I'm confused how people as pants-on-head-tarded-chicken-farking-stupid as you are manage to afford a computer and internet service.
 
2012-08-02 07:15:28 PM  

Carlo Spicy-Wiener: Cletus C.: 12349876: MJMaloney187: I am so very, very confused by this. So very confused.

If you want to vote, you have to show a valid state issued ID. Why is that a bad thing exactly? Can someone please explain that to me?

If it costs money, it's a poll tax.

If you have to pay for gas, taxi, bus or whatever to get to the polling place, it's a poll tax.

If you need to put a stamp on your mail ballot, it's a poll tax.

Cool, I'll expect a refund soon.

You are a very special kind of stupid.


Thanks. We can all stand for some constructive criticism.

There are two kinds of stupid and I am currently failing to remember both.
 
2012-08-02 07:16:44 PM  

furiousxgeorge: randomjsa: We now have two groups of people.

People who recognize a problem with voter fraud and want to do something about it because it doesn't favor them.

People who recognize a problem with voter fraud and want to do nothing about it because they benefit from it.

This is where you link to proof the form of voter fraud that can be prevented by id check is not already being stopped by current safeguards (signature check here in PA), or has ever swung an election, or is not just as likely to happen with fake IDs.


And this is how statistics can be made to lie. when you chose questions that force an assumption. the assumption here is that there is a problem.

voter fraud =1 vote changed per perpetrator
election fraud = Many votes changed per perpetrator

voter supression? not sure, but more likely to be done through "legal methods"

which has a higher probability of being sucessful on changing the outcome of an election, therefore is more likely to be used?
 
2012-08-02 07:18:22 PM  

PluckYew: abb3w: The main difference between a lawyer and an academic is that a lawyer is trained to be a partisan advocate for whatever position he is being paid to hold, and the academic is trained to be a partisan advocate for truth.

Sorry, but this is bullshiat. Too many cover ups of academic fraud and sexual misconduct.


Citation needed. Also, might be helpful if you could come up with a statistically significant number.
 
2012-08-02 07:19:20 PM  

Cletus C.: 12349876: MJMaloney187: I am so very, very confused by this. So very confused.

If you want to vote, you have to show a valid state issued ID. Why is that a bad thing exactly? Can someone please explain that to me?

If it costs money, it's a poll tax.

If you have to pay for gas, taxi, bus or whatever to get to the polling place, it's a poll tax.

If you need to put a stamp on your mail ballot, it's a poll tax.

Cool, I'll expect a refund soon.


When mailed from any U.S. post office, U.S. embassy or consulate, or APO/FPO mail facility, the hardcopy voter registration/absentee ballot form is postage-paid.
 
2012-08-02 07:20:36 PM  

qorkfiend: MJMaloney187: I am so very, very confused by this. So very confused.

If you want to vote, you have to show a valid state issued ID. Why is that a bad thing exactly? Can someone please explain that to me?

Showing an ID is fine. The problem is that the government is explicitly barred from making people pay to vote.

The states passing these laws are making people pay to get the ID they need to vote. This is in addition to the burden posed by acquiring (and paying for) supporting documentation and the time spent during work hours at the government office actually getting the ID. This burden is compounded by creative modifications to office hours and locations, such as closing DMVs or limiting hours in cities - which tend Democratic - and opening more in rural areas, which tend Republican. This partisan split becomes even more obvious when you consider the fact that the states that are pushing these laws are largely controlled by the GOP.

From a policy standpoint, the type of voter fraud that voter ID claims to prevent is virtually nonexistent and has never happened in sufficient numbers to swing an election, so there's no reason to spend all this time preventing it. The majority of voting fraud is electoral fraud: miscounted ballots, uncounted ballots, lost ballots, inaccurate results, etc., which is largely perpetrated by people in positions of authority and not the voters.


Additionally, the people on the front lines of detecting this sort of fraud - the people manning the polling stations - are usually volunteers who have little or no formal training in the specifics of the law (especially a recent one) and in spotting ID fraud (fake IDs and the like). A large number of false positives is inevitable, in order to catch only one or two people. When you add in the partisan differences - who controls the states these laws are being pushed in, the timing of their passage, the demographics that stand to be disenfranchised and their typical partisan leaning, the ID lists and the likely partisan leanings of the people who have which kind of ID, the monkeying with office hours and the likely partisan leanings of the people negatively affected by it - the conclusion that not only is the crisis manufactured, but that the solutions are also partisan in nature, is fairly obvious.
 
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